WEBVTT - Navigating Art Market Pitfalls With a Citi Adviser 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:04.640 Art is a reflection of our times, a way to 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:09.640 convey emotion and communicate. As Picasso wrote, art washes from 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.200 the soul the dust of everyday life. Visual art is 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:16.680 also a major store of wealth and has been for centuries. 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:20.720 Global auction houses and private deals see billions of dollars 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:25.319 passed between collectors, galleries and museums each year, and many 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:27.600 of those sales to the world's wealthiest. 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.240 But recently things haven't looked so good for the art market. 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:36.080 In twenty twenty four, global art auction turnover fell to 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.680 nine point nine billion dollars now that's down thirty three 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:43.560 percent from twenty twenty three. According to Art Market, China 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:46.880 sales were the lowest. There are fewer blue chip art 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:50.239 works for sale, and some major art fraud cases have 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:51.600 weighed down on confidence. 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:55.000 You're listening to Asia Centric. 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:56.800 I'm Katy Dimutrivo in Hong. 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:59.440 Kong, and I'm John Lee in Hong Kong, and. 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:02.800 Today we're talking all things art and wealth with Betsy Vikar, 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.680 art advisor and senior vice president at City Group's Private 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:08.240 bank Art Advisory Unit. 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:10.399 Welcome, Betsy, thank you. 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:11.920 I'm happy to be here and. 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:13.600 We're happy to talk to you about all things art. 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:18.039 Can you tell us a bit about Art advisory as a. 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:20.280 Business, because this is such an interesting corner of the 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:22.720 financial world, you know, Can you give us an idea 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:25.520 of kind of who your clients would be, what art 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.160 is generally used for in your world? 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:28.960 Sure? 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:32.720 So we are the Art Advisory Group is part of 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.880 the private bank at City. We're a group that was 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.840 founded in nineteen seventy nine, so we've been around for 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:42.600 about forty five years. We work with ultra high net 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:46.280 worth clients of the private bank, and those clients engage 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:50.960 us to build museum quality art collections. We are art historians, 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.680 we're not bankers. So even though we work in a bank, 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:57.480 the idea is not to treat art as investment, but 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:01.800 rather as a passion. And what I mean by that is, 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:06.240 of course we're interested in how the art will hold 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:10.560 its value over time, but more importantly, it's about education 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:15.200 and it's showing people how to become connoisseurs and build 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:19.040 world class collections that last for generations. We do a 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:22.280 lot of due diligence, We do front loading with education. 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:25.160 Education is really important. So a lot of what we 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.280 do with our clients is we take them to museums, 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:31.679 we take them to galleries, art fairs, We take them 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.360 around and show them how the market works. So we 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:39.080 educate them on the market on kind of how to 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:43.800 navigate a very opaque and inefficient market and pay the 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:49.040 correct price in that market. But ultimately our advice comes 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:52.720 from a place of wanting them to love the art 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:53.320 that they're buying. 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:56.680 Betsy, how does the scene in Hong Kong compare with 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:00.359 other regions? Was? As we mentioned earlier, the global art 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.200 is down about thirty percent in terms of sales and 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:07.480 auction prices. Now, given China's week economy, what's the vibe 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:07.839 this year? 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:12.440 I think the vibe is, you know, the art market's funny. 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:14.720 The art market is not like other markets, so you 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.120 can have a dip of thirty percent, but it just 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:20.240 sort of keeps going in a way. It's so big 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:24.160 and it's so nuanced. Roughly fifty percent of the art 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:27.680 market is what we call private, meaning that those artworks 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:31.399 are transacted through galleries, so there's no data available that's 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:34.320 verifiable on those transaction prices. 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:38.120 The other half of the market is auction and there is. 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:42.360 Data so to kind of predict what the market is doing. 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:46.000 You're working with a dearth of data, so all of 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:49.440 those numbers are always inherently a little bit inaccurate in 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.720 my opinion. The other thing is, I think Hong Kong 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:57.200 is exciting. It's the third largest market for contemporary art. 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:01.200 Certainly most of the high all our value transactions are 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:04.720 happening in the US, and then you know, behind the US, 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.880 UK and then behind that obviously Hong Kong. But it 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.160 is the third largest market for contemporary art and it 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.000 remains that way. A lot of the dealers have opened 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:16.560 brick and mortar galleries here, the auction houses all have 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.839 new spaces in twenty twenty four, so I think there 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:22.800 is a faith in the market for contemporary art here 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.000 and I think it will continue. Sure it's a buyer's market, 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:28.520 but I see it as an opportunity for our clients. 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.360 Can you talk a bit about your clients as well, 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.960 and how the trends have sort of changed in recent 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:36.960 decades in terms of using art sort of as a 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.800 store of wealth or perhaps you know there's a lot 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:43.560 of newly minted millionaires out there and bitcoin bros, if 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:47.520 you will, and maybe how some of their tastes influenced this. 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:49.480 How have they changed? Sure? 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:54.360 When I started in this industry almost three decades ago, 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:59.279 there were just a handful of household names of collectors 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:03.360 and also a handful of household names of emerging artists. 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:06.359 If you were in the industry now, I mean you 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:10.240 can't keep up it is. The lists are enormous. The 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:14.920 art market has expanded exponentially. I think in recent years 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:20.480 since the pandemic, there has been a real sort of democratization, 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:24.320 if you will, of the art market. You have new participants, 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.720 you have a more diverse crowd of participants, you have 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:33.479 younger collectors. Tastes are changing. I think tastes are now 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:38.320 much more about things of a digital nature, things that 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:42.080 have to do with youth culture, cartoons. You know, there's 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:46.000 a sort of a freedom with subject matter that you 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:48.480 didn't see pre pandemic, and I think a lot of 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:52.120 that came out of that period where people were not 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.040 able to see art in person. And you know what 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.680 we see. We see a lot of really really good 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:01.800 collections coming out of Asia. But certainly, I think our 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.640 clients are global, so we're a global service. We have 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:07.000 advisors in New York and London, but we work with 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:11.680 clients everywhere, and those clients are interested in art that's 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:13.039 being shown globally. 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:17.440 Yeah, just to your point on art buyer is getting younger, 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.839 there's a stat from art at Millennials and gen Z 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.080 now account for a quarter to a third of bidders 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.040 and buyers at the two major houses in twenty twenty four. 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:30.080 The two major houses being in the States, Yeah, Christie's 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:30.600 and Southeast. 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:30.920 Yeah. 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:32.040 So thos as US data. 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.840 Yeah, and I think you know, at the same time 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:38.120 we did last year, as you were talking about the statistics, 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:42.080 we saw dip in artworks being sold over ten million dollars. 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.279 But for us, what we're seeing is like I have 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.000 clients that I've worked with for ten years and we 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:51.600 were instrumental in building those collections. Now some of those 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:53.880 pieces they bought ten years ago, they can sell for 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:57.120 ten times the price because they've appreciated. But it's not 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:59.320 because they went in as investment. 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.000 It's because because they educated themselves. 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.479 And they bought the right things. And those artists have 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.719 flourished and they have good gallery representation, and those galleries 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:13.000 have helped those artists gain international recognition and institutional support, 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:17.080 and their markets have just blossomed. So you know, I 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.760 think for us, we're seeing a lot of clients who 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.480 now really have a store of wealth of art that 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:23.880 they didn't expect. 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:25.400 Because you had mentioned, you know, as long as you 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:27.480 buy the right thing, just to jump off that. So 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.240 to your point, how do you buy the right thing? 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:35.120 It's a very complicated answer, but the short version is 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.080 one of the reasons that someone would hire an art 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:41.960 advisor is to do the due diligence. So you want 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:45.880 to make sure first and foremost that you're buying an 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:48.880 artist whose overall practice. 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:50.800 Is very sophisticated. 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.560 So obviously emerging art, you know, you're taking a risk, 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:57.120 and that's great and it can be fun. But when 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:00.400 we're talking about anything other than emerging art, you want 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.960 to look at does the artist have institutional support? You're 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.960 looking at their CV the way if you were interviewing someone, 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:09.040 you're going to look at their CV. So you're looking 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:12.400 at which institutions are collecting them, which galleries have they 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.880 shown in, which other collectors hold their work. Also, you're 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:21.040 looking at how has their pricing evolved over time. A 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.440 good gallery will control an artist's market to the extent 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:27.560 that the pricing sort of goes up in a very 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:31.600 gradual line. It shouldn't have spikes. Now we are in 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:35.120 a moment in history where that there are exceptions to that, certainly, 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.000 but I think, you know, the underlying principle should be 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:42.400 the same that a gallery is slowly and surely growing 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:46.000 the artist's market, and that they have good gallery representation. 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:48.679 Then if you're buying on the secondary market, there's due 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:50.080 diligence to be done, and. 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:52.079 We do a lot of that for our clients. 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.440 You know, our clients are supposed to have fun, so 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:56.240 we do all of the work so they can just 0:08:56.320 --> 0:09:01.840 have fun doing it. And that involves anything from researching 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:07.160 any questions of authenticity, provenance, history of the artwork condition. 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:09.640 If it's in bad condition, it can affect the sale price, 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.440 or it can be unsaleable. So they're all kinds of 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:15.080 ways that we work with clients to help them feel 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.320 comfortable around what they're buying. 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:20.080 Betsy, you've mentioned something quite interesting. You mentioned that you 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.320 have to look at like the institutional support of an artist. 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:27.080 That almost sounds like a finance book build or finance deal. 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:30.280 I don't even know what that means, but. 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:36.719 I'm an art historian, so you know, I think one 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:38.920 of the things we're really looking at when we're talking 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:42.920 about building a private collection that is quote unquote museum quality. 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.760 Would a museum look back and say, oh, if it 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.840 were a small museum, that's the kind of collection I 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:52.240 would have built. Would those curators look back? So we 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:56.560 are essentially curators for private individuals, wealthy individuals, and we're 0:09:57.000 --> 0:10:00.560 unlike a museum. A museum has certain criteria that they 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.359 need to follow, right they're looking to represent certain geographies 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.360 or certain art historical movements. We don't need to do that. 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.280 We have more freedom with a private collector. But it 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:14.640 is about is that artists work in major museums and 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:17.880 you'd be surprised, you know, even some young artists that 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.000 are up and coming are in very good museum collections. 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:23.080 But you need to look at that, you know, is 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:25.720 it an artists that has a market. There are lots 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:28.760 of artists that have markets and they're trading actually for 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.800 hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars, but they're 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:34.679 not in major museum collections because they're just what we 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:37.640 would call more commercial, and so it's important to just 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:39.160 understand those distinctions. 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:43.600 Asia Centric is produced by Bloomberg Intelligence. We're more than 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:47.480 five hundred experienced analysts and strategists work around the clock 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:51.040 to bring you timely, world class research. Our coverage spans 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:55.360 two hundred market industries, currencies, commodities, and industries, as well 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.400 as over two thousand equities and credits. To learn more 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:02.680 about Bloomberg Intelligence, visit b I go on the Bloomberg terminal. 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:05.719 If you like what you're here, don't forget to subscribe 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:10.600 and chair Betsy. You did mention that you educating your 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:12.800 clients for art and you try to get them to 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.840 build art collection for a lifetime. But a lot of 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.240 your clients are from the business world, A lot of 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:20.439 them also from the finance world, and they do look 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:25.120 at returns. What type of returns can you expect if you, 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:27.719 I won't say invest in art, but purchase art. 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:29.720 Yeah, so it's a good question. 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.720 We tell clients not to expect anything oh interesting, Yeah, 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:41.719 don't expect anything. Be pleasantly surprised when n if it does. 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:42.440 Increase in value. 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.600 I think our goal we look at it as roughly 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:49.120 a seven to ten year holding period for artwork, and 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:53.000 you want to buy something that you anticipate you will 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.160 love and want to live with for that period of 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.400 time and think about it the way you would buy 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:03.400 your marry residents. You know, obviously you don't want the 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:05.319 value to fluctuate or you don't want it. 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:06.120 To lose value. 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:10.360 Part of that value is that intangible living with the 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.320 object for those amount of years. And you know, we 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.640 have clients that their children were not as interested in 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:18.800 the art when they started collecting, but now the children 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.120 have become so engaged in the collecting and it's really 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.760 a touch point for the whole family. So that value 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:29.000 is not something you can put a price tag on now. 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:30.800 As I said, if you are doing all of your 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:33.680 due diligence and you're paying attention to the right things 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:37.040 when you're buying, chances are some of the pieces in 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:39.400 your collection will increase exponentially. 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:43.560 So you had mentioned earlier that something like half the 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:44.880 market is private deals. 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:45.720 So half of it is. 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.360 Auction that's where we get all the data from and 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.600 all these kind of big pieces we hear about that 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:55.160 make it through auction houses. But curious about the other half, 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:59.160 the sort of private deals. In your experience, how do 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.040 those deals happen and is it just straightforward? Do you 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:03.240 go to the gallery, you like something and you want 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:04.240 to purchase it over your client. 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:05.560 Yes. 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.280 So you know, you go into an art gallery and 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:11.559 very rarely when you see price tags on the wall, 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:14.600 that is not something they do. It's not a retail store. 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:19.040 I think a good gallery the main goal is to 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:23.400 foster an artist's career, and that means only selling the artworks, 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:26.600 not to the wealthiest person. It's selling the artworks to 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:28.640 the person that they believe will be a good steward 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.040 of the art. And one of the things that we 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:34.280 do for clients is we provide access. So we're vetting 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.600 the clients in the sense that the clients are people 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:39.880 that we believe, even if they've never purchased a work 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.760 of art, they have the right attitude and again not 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.280 going into it as investment, but looking at it as 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:49.120 forming a collection. And so when we bring even new 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:53.640 clients in, we have relationships with the salespeople, the dealers. 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:59.679 It's about relationships and knowing how to select an artist 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:03.320 from the gallery's roster that is appropriate for the client. 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.960 And so let's say, for example, a new client, we 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:09.160 take them to some galleries. They have an idea of 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.200 what they like. We say, let's go visit this gallery. 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:16.160 We'll talk to so and so and so. That dealer 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.280 is a really good source for education about the artists. 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:21.000 So I know a lot about these artists, but I 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.080 don't know everything. I rely on those dealers because they 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.800 tell me, you know, some backstories about the paintings and 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.360 about the artist lives and what's happening. 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.040 You know, there might be an exhibition. 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:35.440 At the Guggenheim or MoMA that hasn't been announced, so 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:39.080 they can give you that information. And then typically, if 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.280 it's what we call primary market, meaning it's coming directly 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.040 from the artists through the gallery, there's not a lot 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.000 of negotiation and not a lot of due diligence. It's 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:51.800 pretty straightforward in terms of just looking at the artist's career, 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.880 selecting the right piece that feels like an important piece 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.400 of a series or of the artist's body of work 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:03.040 in general. If it's secondary market, that's where all of 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:07.040 the fun stuff comes in. So secondary market, you know, 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.360 again you're looking at did the gallery do its due 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:14.200 diligence on any parties involved? You know, city Obviously we're 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.920 as a regulated fiduciary, we do a lot of due 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:21.680 diligence on the galleries. We do due diligence on the artwork, 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.640 you know, where it has been, any gaps and provenance, 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:29.080 any gaps. You know, is there a certificate of authenticity? 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.280 If there is, you know, like for Boscia and Warhol, 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.720 there are different criteria for each artist. You know, how 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:39.080 do you assess is that a good certificate? Does it matter? 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:43.480 These days no one really authenticates art, very few people, 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.440 so it's you know, a leap of faith in some ways. 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:50.640 So we're doing that and getting the client comfortable to 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:53.160 a point that they can make a decision confidently. 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.760 So you're reducing some of the risk, like the fraud 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:58.840 risk out of purchasing art. 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.560 Yes, you know a lot of what we do and 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.160 this is not a bank term, but it's almost an 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.520 informed intuition. So people who in the art world will 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:12.600 talk about authenticating and there are certainly forensics that one 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:14.280 can do. There are all kinds of things that one 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:18.600 can do. But what really comes down to is you've 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:23.920 seen I don't know, five hundred examples of Warhol. You know, 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.840 if I look at a Warhol that looks funny, something 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.400 goes off. There's something in me that says this is funny, 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:33.840 and you know, I'll tell my client, Let's wait, let's 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.400 do some more research, or maybe not purchase it at all. 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:38.960 We often tell people not to purchase things if there's 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:39.760 any kind of doubt. 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:45.360 Banana taped to a wall by or no bye bye. 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:48.960 Yes, but the odd market isn't regulated. 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:53.080 There are regulations, yes, and I think further regulations are. 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:54.920 Coming in the EU and the UK. 0:16:55.280 --> 0:17:00.080 There are regulations around money laundering and sanctions the US. 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.120 You know, the galleries are not held to the same standards, 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:06.199 but at City actually we are really working at the 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.080 highest level. We're working at like the way that we 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:10.720 do it is the way it's done in the in 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.480 the EU and the UK, and we're applying those principles 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:15.760 in the US, even though I think the galleries aren't 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:18.879 there yet, but they're on their way. So there is 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.720 some regulation. But it is a buyer beware market. So 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.120 if you don't do your due diligence and you don't 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.359 ask the questions, you're stuck with it and then you 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:30.720 might not be able to sell it in years to come. 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.399 I was going to ask just exactly about that. So 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:36.800 have you had clients who've come to you and basically 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.320 told you sort of horror stories of like previous experiences 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.320 where they maybe didn't have an advisor, maybe had an 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:46.679 advisor who you know, wasn't that great. You know. 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:47.760 Have you heard some of those stories. 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.960 Yeah, we've had a handful. And in fact, that's how 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.400 we get a lot of new clients is they've had 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.320 bad experiences and there are traps that anyone could fall into. 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:00.960 I've learned a lot over the years from my clients. 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.760 We had a client that bought some prints and didn't 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:08.399 realize the prince had been screened over. You know, someone 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:11.400 else who wasn't the artist, you know, created a whole 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:13.160 other screening layer over the prince. 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:13.800 You know. 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:18.280 There are things that we've seen gallerists modify artworks that 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:22.320 were not the original artwork, but how would you know 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:25.359 if you were the buyer, And so a lot of 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.200 that was just digging into the history of the pieces 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.520 and trying to figure out what happened to this artwork 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:35.119 in its lifetime, because they're sort of organic objects and 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:38.560 they have different owners throughout their life cycle. So a 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:42.040 lot of it is piecing together the history of an object, 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:45.960 you know. And then we've had other clients that just overpaid, 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.720 they bought something their friend told them about it. It 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.600 was fun and cool, and sometimes they've overpaid by a 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:54.680 million dollars or more. 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.359 Well, so, you know, not like going to the store 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:00.639 or buying a pair of shoes not getting the ten 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:02.919 percent discount we're talking about. It's a little different. 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:06.479 Yeah, yeah, But so you travel the world, you attend 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:09.200 art fairs like you are this week in Hong Kong. 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:11.840 But there must be a lot of trends, like some 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:14.480 hot artists or some areas of arts and pockets of 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:17.920 art that's really going up. What are the cool trends 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:18.720 right now you're seeing? 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:23.680 So I think the zeitgeist of the art world right 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:29.119 now is about looking at underrepresented, marginalized groups. And I 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:32.199 hate to say women maybe are part of that, but 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:34.600 I suppose we are. You know, I think there's a 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.879 lot of focus on rediscovering some artists who didn't get 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:44.359 their due in their moment. There are artists who, for 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.280 whatever reason, their partner, their husband was more famous than 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:50.760 they were at the time, and only now their work 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.200 is sort of being rediscovered by the market. And then 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:56.760 I think the other thing you're seeing is a lot 0:19:56.800 --> 0:20:01.480 of interest in figurative painting, but of painting, not just 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:06.360 of Western white subjects. It's really because I think the 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.800 demographic of the collector base is changing, and so what 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.960 they're interested in is changing, because art speaks to people's 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.760 heart and they're interested in something that they can relate to. 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.880 Are there some examples of artists like that, Like when 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.480 you say partner is a famous artist, like Jackson Pollock's. 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:26.240 Wife, I think Krasner. Yeah, yeah, is that sort of yeah? 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:30.480 So Lee Krasner, certainly her market has gone up significantly 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:32.160 in the past few years as a result of that. 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:36.320 There's another artist being shown this week, Lynn Drexler. She 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:41.000 was a second generation abstract expressionist. She trained under Hans Hoffman. 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:47.080 She was an extremely experienced colorist, and it's like think 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:48.959 of Van goh meets Hans Hoffman. 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:50.000 They're beautiful. 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:55.280 But she was married to someone whose career was front 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.960 and center. You know, her own career was marginalized, and 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:03.040 I think she's offered from some psychological issues and became 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.920 a hermit. And what's interesting too, is the scholarship is 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:09.200 still coming out about her because you know, the market 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:11.720 since twenty twenty two has really gone up for her work. 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.359 So now I think a lot of galleries are behind it, 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:17.280 and people are showing it, museums are behind it. It's 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.399 possible that she was colorblind at the moment she was 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:22.680 painting some of these pieces in the mid seventies, and 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:28.439 they're about color, so they're really interesting. There's another artist 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.600 who is Canadian of Chinese descent, Dominique Fung, who I 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:36.439 think is really interesting. You know, that's figurative. She's looking 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:40.240 at even though she never lived in China, She's looking 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:46.200