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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Donald Trump says he will bring

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Speaker 1: back the president's power of impoundment that way you can't

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Speaker 1: impeach him again.

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Speaker 2: We have an amazing show today.

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Speaker 1: Slate's Dahlia Lethwick talks to us about the Supreme Court's

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Speaker 1: latest surprise ruling, and then we'll talk to the amazing

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Speaker 1: Wesley Lowry about his book American White Lash, a Changing

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Speaker 1: Nation and the Cost of Progress. But first we have

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Speaker 1: the host of the Lawrence O'Donnell Show, MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics, Laurence o'donald.

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Speaker 3: It is great to be back. And I have to

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Speaker 3: warn you at the outside that I am scree hours

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Speaker 3: behind you and everywhere. Okay, you you have a three

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Speaker 3: hour head start on me today because I'm in an

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Speaker 3: undisclosed location where i'll i'll just say, the sun sets

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Speaker 3: into the ocean, and so I you know, I'm way

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Speaker 3: behind here, as is generally the entire state that I'm

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Speaker 3: in at the moment. It's basically there's like a three

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Speaker 3: hour leg time at dinner sometimes if you say certain

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Speaker 3: things that they aren't quite up to speed with.

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Speaker 1: Here, you know, is your governor a future presidential candidate.

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Speaker 3: He's a future presidential candidate, not this time, but next time,

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Speaker 3: and that'll be quite a crowded field that he's a

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Speaker 3: future presidential candidate in. You're just assuming everyone figured out California, right, Wow,

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Speaker 3: you know that's that's a wicked smile audience. I have

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Speaker 3: to take.

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Speaker 2: This audience is very smart.

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Speaker 3: I have to say, yeah, that's true, but.

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Speaker 1: I just assumed California because Governor Newsome has sort of

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Speaker 1: sucked up a lot of the oxygen. And I don't

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Speaker 1: actually say that in a negative way. I think that

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Speaker 1: twenty eight is going to be an amazing field with.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, he's he's he's matured a lot as

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Speaker 3: a politician in a way that's similar to Joe Biden.

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Speaker 3: If you were looking at him ten years ago, you'd

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Speaker 3: be a lot less impressed. If you're looking at Joe Biden,

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Speaker 3: you know, twenty years ago, you'd be a lot less impressed.

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Speaker 3: And so Gavin Mussom definitely has learned a lot. He's

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Speaker 3: become better at governing and better at politics.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I also have like this whole theory again,

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Speaker 1: which is that old Biden is the best Biden.

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Speaker 2: I think we've talked about this before.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree completely, and that.

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Speaker 1: Even if he misses a step verbally though. Again, there

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Speaker 1: was a video of him calling Joe Manchin Jojo, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, how is that a gaff?

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Speaker 2: That's what he calls Joe, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Speaking of other leaders of the free world or former

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Speaker 1: leaders of the free world.

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Speaker 2: There was another Trump tape.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And the fun thing about this Trump tape

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Speaker 3: is that we've known it existed for seventeen days, right,

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Speaker 3: because the indictment Daltrum comes out and it quotes a

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Speaker 3: tape in the middle of the of the indictment and

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Speaker 3: it says this recording was made with Donald Trump's consent.

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Speaker 3: So there were two presumptions, you know, guesses about the recording.

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Speaker 3: One is it's the author who's there to write Mark

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Speaker 3: Meadow's biography for him, because obviously Mark Meadows can't do that,

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Speaker 3: and he's recording his interview subject Donald Trump. Right. The

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Speaker 3: other theory, and both can be true, is that Trump

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Speaker 3: was recording the conversation. Trump's staff was recording the conversation,

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Speaker 3: because that's a thing that they do to protect Trump

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Speaker 3: against being misquoted, which I have to say is the

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Speaker 3: funniest reason ever for recording anything. It's like, no, Donald,

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Speaker 3: you don't want the recording so you can claim you

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Speaker 3: were misquoted. Okay, if you have the recording, you won't

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Speaker 3: be able to claim you were misquoted. Let's just, for

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Speaker 3: the sake of simplicity, assumed that it's the author's recording.

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Speaker 3: And Jack Smith got it with a subpoena or or

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Speaker 3: he got up with a subpoena to Trump's staff, and

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Speaker 3: so we knew that there's a recording, right And I

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Speaker 3: think in the back of our minds, we're kind of

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Speaker 3: thinking lazily, like, okay, you know, well, we'll hear that

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Speaker 3: in court. And it's like no, no, no, you're gonna

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Speaker 3: hear it in seventeen days because it's gonna leak. It's crush,

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Speaker 3: it's gonna leak, you know. And it's so I felt

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Speaker 3: like so dumb yesterday. It's like, wait a minute, you

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Speaker 3: mean I didn't predict that recording with pele leak, Like

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Speaker 3: how how did I forget to predict that? And uh,

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Speaker 3: and you know, and there it is, and you know,

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Speaker 3: not surprisingly they they quoted only a portion in the indictment,

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Speaker 3: you know, of what we heard, and there's a little

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Speaker 3: more language that sounds, you know, even a bit more

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Speaker 3: incriminating that wasn't included in the indictment. But that doesn't mean.

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Speaker 3: I heard somebody on TV yesterday wondering, like, was that

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Speaker 3: a mistake that they didn't include that other line. It's like,

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Speaker 3: of course not. It's like, they make it very clear,

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Speaker 3: you know that this isn't the whole thing, you know

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Speaker 3: that they're quoting, you know, in the indictment. But it's

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Speaker 3: proof beyond reasonable doubt if and I'm sure they do

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Speaker 3: have this, if they have witnesses to that event. You know,

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Speaker 3: the book author, the apparently a book publisher was there,

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Speaker 3: All of the Trump staff, all of those people have

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Speaker 3: been subpoenaed to the grand jury. They've all gone under oath,

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Speaker 3: and they've all been asked exactly what was Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: holding up and they just they all described it to

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Speaker 3: the best of their ability under oath, because at that point,

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Speaker 3: you know, nobody's protecting Donald Trump. And so somebody probably

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Speaker 3: said something like, well, he showed it to me and

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Speaker 3: it was very clear, like there's a person on there,

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Speaker 3: you know where Trump says see that basically says something

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Speaker 3: like you know, you see that, and the person kind

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Speaker 3: of goes yeah, you know, there's a kind of acknowledgment

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Speaker 3: that they're looking at the thing, right, and that person

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Speaker 3: under oath told the grand jury what that person saw,

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Speaker 3: and he saw the words iran, and he saw you know,

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Speaker 3: battle plan or classified you know, all these things that

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Speaker 3: are there, and then you know that are basically for

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Speaker 3: you as a jury, are the same thing as videotape, right,

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Speaker 3: And so at that point, that is proof beyond a

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Speaker 3: reasonable doubt that he was holding up and showing and

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Speaker 3: as the law refers to it, disseminating classified information.

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Speaker 1: He of course said in the third person, I might add,

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Speaker 1: which is always like my favorite with one of his

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Speaker 1: weird affectations, that this was proof that he was exonerated.

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Speaker 3: Exactly. He's going to do that with the worst stuff

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Speaker 3: that comes along. Right where it's proof of guilt beyond

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Speaker 3: a reasonable doubt, Donald Trump will every time say it's

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Speaker 3: proof of the opposite, which is unique to him, you know,

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Speaker 3: like OJ wasn't saying those little blood specs on the

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Speaker 3: door of the Bronco proves that I didn't do it?

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Speaker 3: Like that wasn't Ojy's idea. Oj was going for the

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Speaker 3: classical notion of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, like you know,

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Speaker 3: and he wasn't saying, oh no, no, the bloodstains on

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Speaker 3: the help my case. Like so, Trump is doing this

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Speaker 3: thing that is purely Trumpian in the American experience, where

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Speaker 3: he's going in the most you know, flat out high

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Speaker 3: speed propagandistic way, you know, to the craziest position you

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Speaker 3: could possibly hold. And he should because he has tested

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Speaker 3: Trump voters from the first day on believing nonsense, right,

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Speaker 3: so just ask them to believe a little more nonsense,

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Speaker 3: and you've pulled the along this far, you know, so

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Speaker 3: so they'll they'll go along with that. I'm sure you'll

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Speaker 3: hear people with all your Trump friends, you know, in Manhattan,

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Speaker 3: you'll be hearing them say that proves that proves he

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Speaker 3: didn't do it, right, No.

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Speaker 1: And I mean I think that that's a really good

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Speaker 1: point here. I love that you brought up OJ because

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Speaker 1: that's like our vintage too. And of course you're in California,

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Speaker 1: so ergo OJ must be brought up. But I think

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Speaker 1: that's a really good point that he has really successfully

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Speaker 1: made all of these indictments not about your guy does crimes,

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Speaker 1: but instead against like what kind of system punishes a

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Speaker 1: person like me for crimes?

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Speaker 3: Well, I wouldn't say successfully, because successfully he has to

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Speaker 3: do that to a majority of voters, and he's nowhere

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Speaker 3: close to a majority of voters, and really successfully, once

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Speaker 3: you're indicted, I'm afraid you have to do that to

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Speaker 3: twelve voters, in particular on your criminal trial jury. And

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Speaker 3: I don't think he's going to be successful with the

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Speaker 3: twelve jurors.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that we'll see, and they will be Florida jurors.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they'll be Florida. But you know, I know it's

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Speaker 3: surprising and it sounds incredibly Pollyanna, But the history of

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Speaker 3: jury service in the United States is a history of

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Speaker 3: people taking the oath very seriously. Yes, there are exceptions, Absolutely,

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Speaker 3: there are exceptions. But Trump himself has delivered to us

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Speaker 3: the most dramatic example of this, and that was in

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Speaker 3: Andrew Weisman's prosecution of Paul Manifort in the in the

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Speaker 3: Mueller investigation, and I had you know, there was one

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Speaker 3: juror from that case who went public, and she went

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Speaker 3: public on my show, and she was a Trump voter,

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Speaker 3: and she voted guilty guilty on Paul Mannofort for everything, okay,

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Speaker 3: And she said on my show, you know, if Trump,

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Speaker 3: you know, pardons him, that would be a problem for me.

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Speaker 3: And of course he does put us. But she also

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Speaker 3: said this great line. You know, she said, when I

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Speaker 3: became a juror, I left the Mega hat in the car.

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Speaker 3: And it's real. You know, she went into that jury

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Speaker 3: loving Donald Trump. She left the jury ready to vote

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Speaker 3: for Donald Trump for reelection. But she found Trump's guy

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Speaker 3: guilty because she took an oath to listen to the evidence.

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Speaker 3: That's the way it happens most of the time. Now

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Speaker 3: you can easily get one, you know, in this case

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Speaker 3: in Florida, who you know violates the oath and becomes

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Speaker 3: creates a hung jury. But that just means you have

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Speaker 3: the trial again.

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Speaker 1: Right, No, that's true. And there's still also, more importantly,

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Speaker 1: another set of indictments.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and boy, they're getting more interesting all the time.

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Speaker 3: I'm a little surprised that the news is telling us

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Speaker 3: that Jack Smith is just interviewing Georgia's Secretary of State Raffensburger.

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Speaker 3: Now I would have thought they did that six months ago.

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Speaker 3: So that tells me that, Okay, that is moving slower

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Speaker 3: than I thought, But at least it's a reassurance that

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Speaker 3: Jack Smith has recognized what we all recognized, which is

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Speaker 3: that crime of interfering in the election in Georgia is

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Speaker 3: a federal crime as well as a state crime, and

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Speaker 3: they're totally different crimes. You know, there's nothing double jeopardy

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Speaker 3: about prosecuting him federally for exactly the same conduct for

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Speaker 3: which he will be prosecuted at the state level in Georgia,

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Speaker 3: because that same conduct crosses criminal line in completely different

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Speaker 3: sets of laws. It's such an obvious federal crime you

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Speaker 3: know that he committed. It's the most obvious of them all,

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Speaker 3: is that recording with Raffensburger. It's great to know that

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Speaker 3: Jack Smith is on that case because that case is

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Speaker 3: going to be in Washington, d C. Because that's where

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump made the phone call. And I can tell

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Speaker 3: you right now that Washington d C. Jury is going

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Speaker 3: to have no struggle unanimously arriving at the verdict that

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Speaker 3: that was criminal conduct and guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 2: And then you have Georgia. You have the state charges.

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Speaker 3: Georgia's separate case, and you know, Fulton County. If he

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Speaker 3: committed that crime in Marjorie Taylor Greens District, he'd have

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Speaker 3: a good shot with the jury. I'm afraid he does

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Speaker 3: not have a jury pool tilted his way in Fulton County, Georgia,

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Speaker 3: which voted seventy percent for Joe Burr. And so that

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Speaker 3: jury's going to find him guilt of the crimes that

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Speaker 3: Sawny Willis charges him with. I mean, that's just not

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Speaker 3: a difficult predict. We've all heard the tape. Imagine a

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Speaker 3: world where we'd never heard the Reffensburger tape. But it

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Speaker 3: does exist, right, okay, and the prosecutors have it. I mean,

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Speaker 3: if you noticed the cable news reaction last night, there's

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Speaker 3: two minutes of tape that is that is suggestive, and

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Speaker 3: we're all filling in the blanks of it, you know,

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Speaker 3: like a great radio drama. You know, we can see it.

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Speaker 3: Imagine if you know, at the indictment level or at

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Speaker 3: some point the Georgia tape emerged when Trump is charged

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Speaker 3: with the crime, and in the indictment is the quotation

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Speaker 3: I need you to find me, you know, eleven votes,

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Speaker 3: like we would just be you know, we would explode

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Speaker 3: with guilty beyond a reasonable doubt coverage of that moment.

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Speaker 3: And so we already know it, like we already know

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Speaker 3: the very worst evidence against Donald Trump, the most damning

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Speaker 3: evidence against Donald Trump in the case. And the weird

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Speaker 3: thing is we've known it exactly as long as the

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Speaker 3: prosecutor has known it, because it became public literally, you know,

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Speaker 3: on her first day on the job.

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Speaker 1: So here's a question about these allegations. The timetable on

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Speaker 1: all of these seems to be after the Republican primary.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't care. I don't care about the timetable

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Speaker 3: at all, because criminal process doesn't care about the timetable.

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Speaker 3: They don't care what you're doing. You know, it's like

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Speaker 3: you're charged with the crime in Georgia. We don't care.

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Speaker 3: They don't care at all. When the New Hampshire primary

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Speaker 3: is any of that stuff is. It's beyond the scope

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Speaker 3: of criminal process to be able to care about that.

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Speaker 3: And I don't care when he gets convicted. I don't care.

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Speaker 3: I don't care if it's after the election, and I

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Speaker 3: don't care what it happens. It's all going to happen.

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Speaker 3: It's why I said shortly after Biden was inaugurated, I

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Speaker 3: introduced the concept of defendant Trump, and I said in

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Speaker 3: house that EMERSONBC, you know, to executives, we have now

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Speaker 3: entered the defendant Trump phase of this network's life, and

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Speaker 3: it's going to be years. And nothing was happening, right

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Speaker 3: Nothing was happening. All we knew pretty much right away

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Speaker 3: was there's going to be in Georgia criminal investigation of

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Speaker 3: that phone call. But what was clear to me was

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Speaker 3: Egen Carol lawsuits from the January sixth attack. What was

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Speaker 3: very clear to me was and I said it my

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Speaker 3: first presentation of defendant Trump concept on the show, is

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump is going to be a defendant for the

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Speaker 3: rest of his life, and he's going to be appealing

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Speaker 3: as a defendant criminal convictions for the rest of his life,

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Speaker 3: possibly depending on how long he lives, but he's absolutely

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Speaker 3: going to be a civil defendant for the rest of

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Speaker 3: his life, you know. And so you know, for Eging

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Speaker 3: Carol to get to the end of the line in

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Speaker 3: litigation with Donald Trump, it might not occurred during Trump's

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Speaker 3: lifetime because there's so many different layers to it, right,

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Speaker 3: Like he's going to appeal the jury verdict he's going

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Speaker 3: to and if he fails at that, you then move

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Speaker 3: into the collection stage of the money, and that can

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Speaker 3: be dragged out by defendant Trump for many, many, many

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Speaker 3: many years. So he's going to be a criminal and

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Speaker 3: or civil defendant for the rest of his life. And

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Speaker 3: this is this is a permanent condition for him, it's

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Speaker 3: a permanent condition for the news media and what has

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Speaker 3: forced him into the role of defendant. Completely ignores election

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Speaker 3: calendars and doesn't care about it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it seems as if he's still going to

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Speaker 2: win the nomination.

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Speaker 3: I don't make any prediction about it. You know, if

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Speaker 3: he wins the nomination, he's going to lose the election.

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Speaker 3: That I think is pretty certain. You know, there's a

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Speaker 3: very simple thing in politics that every single president prior

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Speaker 3: to Trump has done. Is when you win the presidency,

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Speaker 3: you spend all of your time privately concentrating on winning

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Speaker 3: the votes you didn't win. Let me pick up. You know,

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Speaker 3: I won x percent. I'd like to win two percent

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Speaker 3: more next time, or three percent more next time. Right now. Publicly,

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Speaker 3: you have to serve the people who elected you in

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Speaker 3: your speech making and all of that, but privately you're

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Speaker 3: concentrating NonStop on the people who didn't vote for you,

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Speaker 3: because you're trying to add to your vote comps for reelection.

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Speaker 3: That's that's what you're trying to do. And no one's

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Speaker 3: comfortable with the margin they win by, you know that

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Speaker 3: first time, especially, so all I care about when he

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Speaker 3: got elected was let me listen to him talk to

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Speaker 3: voters who didn't vote for him. And I'm still waiting

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Speaker 3: to hear him say one sentence to them. So this time,

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Speaker 3: you know, he comes in second and the electoral College

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Speaker 3: ailed the vote, and he still doesn't say a word

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Speaker 3: to people who didn't vote for him, not one.

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Speaker 2: Word, actually word about this this week?

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Speaker 1: Don't you think that this is actually a fundamental Republican

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Speaker 1: primary problem? Like if you look at these candidates, right,

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Speaker 1: so you have this sense that Trump is perhaps running

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Speaker 1: too far to the right on certain things. So in fact,

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Speaker 1: DeSantis and Pence run even further to the right, like

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Speaker 1: nobody is trying to. I mean, they're fighting for the base,

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Speaker 1: but they're also making it very clear that they have

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Speaker 1: no interest in picking up swing voters.

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Speaker 3: Well at this stage, yeah, I mean, you know, Nixon

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Speaker 3: and others, you know, talked about how you have to

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Speaker 3: run to the right in the Republican primary. But then

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Speaker 3: then as soon as the Republican primary's over, you have

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Speaker 3: to run back to the center. So Nixon was rushing

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Speaker 3: back to the center as soon as he gets the nomination,

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Speaker 3: you know, like let me get back into this competitive zone,

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Speaker 3: you know, for November. And everybody did that, you know,

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Speaker 3: Reagan did that, like George H. W. Bush did that.

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Speaker 3: Everybody did that, and that Trump's the first one who doesn't.

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Speaker 3: He's stupid, So he doesn't know how I mean, he's

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Speaker 3: ranked stupid. So if you said to him, you know,

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Speaker 3: if Nixon was there to say to hey, well now

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Speaker 3: you have to swerve to the middle, Donald Trump would

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Speaker 3: not know what middle meant. He wouldn't know how to

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Speaker 3: find it. He wouldn't know, like, have no idea. And

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Speaker 3: so he's just locked with the vote that he has

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Speaker 3: and the only thing that could happen to that vote

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Speaker 3: is that it diminishes because it cannot increase and you

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Speaker 3: know the number of indictments. It won't make those people

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Speaker 3: vote for Joe Biden, but it might make them not

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Speaker 3: rush to the polls that day.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Lawrence. I hope you'll come back.

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Speaker 3: I am coming back. You can't keep me away. You

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Speaker 3: know what column I'm in there, and your guest book,

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Speaker 3: I'm in the Desperately Available column. You know that.

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Speaker 1: Dalia Litswick is a senior editor at Slight and author

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Speaker 1: of Lady Justice, Women, The Law, and The Battle to

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Speaker 1: Save America.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics, Dalia. Thank you for having me back. Molly.

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Speaker 1: I'm always so excited to get to have you on

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Speaker 1: the podcast, and I'm always so excited to talk Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court with you. By the way, do you just have

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Speaker 1: so much anxiety after what they did last last season

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Speaker 1: that you know this second season.

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Speaker 2: Of super Emboldened Supreme Court makes you nervous? Or now?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think in a weird way. I've been

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Speaker 4: like Lucy footballed with kindness this season, Like I was prepared,

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Speaker 4: do you know what I mean? Like it was such

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Speaker 4: a disaster last year that I was fully prepared for

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Speaker 4: like ten six three precedent overturning democracy, denying on stilts

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Speaker 4: on skates, like middle Finger to y'all, and like that's

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Speaker 4: just not happening. And so you know, we only have

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Speaker 4: seven cases left and they're gonna be bad and we

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Speaker 4: can talk about it. But the fact that you know,

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Speaker 4: including like Tuesday's independent state legislature theory, like it could

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Speaker 4: have been so very bad, and all of these cases

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Speaker 4: are coming out not badly. And then I'm just like

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Speaker 4: my eyes trying to figure out, like, okay, I mean,

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Speaker 4: how bad can affirmative action be to like make all

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Speaker 4: these good outcomes also bad. So it's it's very strange.

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Speaker 4: I don't have a working theory for what happened to

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Speaker 4: the like hashtag yar court from this time last year,

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Speaker 4: but something very different is happening.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about this big ruling this week, which

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Speaker 1: was this Supreme Court rejects this independent state legislature theory.

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Speaker 2: It's a little bit complicated.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, it's so technical, Molly that by the

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Speaker 4: time I finish the next paragraph, you will be asleep.

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Speaker 4: And it's also, i mean to be clear, like the

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Speaker 4: most consequential or could have been the most consequential case

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Speaker 4: for the future of democracy, like no joke, huge deal,

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Speaker 4: and the like very short version is that this independent

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Speaker 4: state legislature theory. And I'm putting up air quotes around

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Speaker 4: theory because it's not one was going to be the

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Speaker 4: vehicle by which very scary conservative legislators in North Carolina.

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Speaker 4: But like backed by Leonard Leo in big money and

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Speaker 4: you know, all the apparatus of destroying democracy, We're going

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Speaker 4: to essentially say that state legislatures thirty of the fifty

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Speaker 4: are red state controlled, could essentially put in place any

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Speaker 4: election practices they want and it would be unreviewable by

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Speaker 4: their state supreme court. That was the theory, and it

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Speaker 4: was not to put to find a point on it.

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Speaker 4: A version of that theory was the thing that was

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Speaker 4: being pushed on Mike Pants right to set aside all

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Speaker 4: of those contested elections.

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Speaker 1: Right, this is the theory where dan Quayle said, no,

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Speaker 1: you can't do that.

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Speaker 4: Right when Mike Pants is like speed dialing the important

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Speaker 4: legal thinker of our time, Dan and lands on dan Quail.

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Speaker 4: But like, seriously, Mike Ludig, the guy who he talked

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Speaker 4: to was you know, a sort of unbelievable conservative legal

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Speaker 4: movement stalwart. You know, who worked in the Reagan White House,

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Speaker 4: who worked in the Bush Justice Department, who was you know,

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Speaker 4: on the very short list for the seat that John

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Speaker 4: Roberts got. It was Mike Ludig who said to Mike Pants, like,

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Speaker 4: you cannot you know, refuse to certify these contested states,

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Speaker 4: and that kind of saved us from a real coup,

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Speaker 4: and a version of that theory, the sort of less

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Speaker 4: maximalist version of that theory, was being used to say

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Speaker 4: that essentially, state legislators can do whatever the hell they end.

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Speaker 4: They can't be checked. And today I'm sorry. And Tuesday,

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Speaker 4: in a six to three kind of resounding majority, picking

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Speaker 4: off not just the liberals but Amy Cony, Barrett and

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Speaker 4: Brett Kavanaugh. The Chief Justice was like, oh no, no,

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Speaker 4: oh no, no, that would be stupid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to I just want to get back

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Speaker 1: to this for a second, because I do think it's

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Speaker 1: it's quite interesting.

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Speaker 2: Gorsi, who's somehow.

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Speaker 1: Believes in the like sanctity of Native American, you know, personhood,

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Speaker 1: but not women or black people, was the one who

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Speaker 1: went along with the two Zalads.

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Speaker 4: Right, Gorsich, Alito and Thomas dissented in this case. Now

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Speaker 4: there's a slightly credible argument for the descent, which is,

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Speaker 4: after the court had heard this case, the North Carolina

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court flipped conservative and withdrew the opinion, and essentially,

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Speaker 4: by most rules of legal construction, the court the case

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Speaker 4: is then moot. Right, like, there's no real basis. And

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Speaker 4: to be clear, John Roberts had to do some like

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Speaker 4: amazing turning himself into a pretzel to decide this case

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Speaker 4: on the merits, which he did. So the dissenter some

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Speaker 4: of the dissenters, you know, objected because this case was moot,

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Speaker 4: and that's probably right. But it's also right that I

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Speaker 4: think the three dissenters and they have signed off, by

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Speaker 4: the way, in the past on versions of the independent

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Speaker 4: state legislature theory. The really interesting person, in some sense

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Speaker 4: is Brett Cavanaugh, who had certainly been independent state curious

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Speaker 4: in the past, but this time votes with Roberts and

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Speaker 4: the liberals.

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Speaker 1: So interesting, this is good news. There were a few

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Speaker 1: other bright spots. Will you tell us about the other

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Speaker 1: bright spots.

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00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 4: There's kind of been a freakish number of bright spots, Molly,

430
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 4: the same Roberts Court right, which gave us Shelby County,

431
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 4: which gave us you know, Bernovich like, which has really

432
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 4: dismantled the Voting Rights Act, the crown Jewel of voting

433
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 4: rights gave us a case out of Alabama that was

434
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 4: going to eviscerate what was left of the Voting Rights Act.

435
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 4: And again resoundingly came out in favor of voting.

436
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 2: We had.

437
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 4: This court came out, as you suggested in the Indian

438
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 4: Child Welfare Act case, resoundingly, resoundingly on the side of

439
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 4: of course, Native American tribes get sort of a right

440
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 4: of first refe fusal to take kids who are in

441
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 4: foster care and keep them within the tribe.

442
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 2: It's hard to.

443
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 4: Believe the Supreme Court that last year, as you said,

444
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 4: gave us Dobbs, gave us bruin the gun case, gave

445
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 4: us Coach Kennedy praying on the fifty yard line, now

446
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 4: is giving us these like pot smoking, hippie like kumbaya cases.

447
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 4: And there's something, as I said, something is shifting, at

448
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 4: least for Kavanaugh and Barrett and sometimes for Gorsic. And

449
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 4: we're seeing the sentence Justice Alito and Justice Thomas dissent

450
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 4: alone in ways that I could not fathom if this

451
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 4: was happening last year.

452
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: So the state legislatures and federal elections that was Tuesday,

453
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: then race and voting maps. Can you talk a little

454
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,360
Speaker 1: bit about that, because that's pretty amazing too.

455
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 4: This was an amazing case where essentially the state of

456
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 4: Alabama wanted to turn the Fourteenth Amendment on its head

457
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 4: and say that if you have any race conscious remediation

458
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 4: of voting maps, then that's racist. That to try to

459
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 4: fix centuries of racial bias in the voting system is

460
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 4: itself racist. And as I said, this is a huge win.

461
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 4: The court bats it away. A version of that theory

462
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 4: was the one that was being used to challenge the

463
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 4: Indian Child Welfare Act, that it's racist to use the

464
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 4: idea that Native American children belong with Native American custodians,

465
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 4: because that also is racist. And so we've seen this

466
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 4: slew of cases where the court refuses to see the

467
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 4: anti discrimination Reconstructition Amendments to mean that the real sufferers

468
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 4: here are white people. So that's a huge, big deal.

469
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: It feels like a very Charlie Kirk kind of logic. Right,

470
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: it's racist to say racism is racist?

471
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 4: Try it right, or that the term of art they

472
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 4: keep using is that the Constitution is meant to be

473
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 4: color blind, and that means that everything that happened in

474
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 4: the Reconstruction Amendments demands that white people not suffer. I

475
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 4: will say one of the big losses. You know, there

476
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 4: have been some big losses. The clean Water Act took

477
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 4: it to the chops. That's just unbelievably depressing if you

478
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 4: think you know that all of this other stuff can

479
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 4: be fixed in five or ten years, Like what can't

480
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 4: be fixed is wetlands that are going to be destroyed.

481
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 4: As you say, you know, we're going to have to

482
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 4: wait and see that. The big big biggies of the term,

483
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 4: as always happens in the worst jack in the box ever,

484
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 4: is at the end of the term, you get punched

485
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 4: in the mouth by the affirmative action cases, the Biden

486
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 4: Loan forgiveness case, and that three zero three creative case.

487
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: Right, can you explain to us what the three O

488
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: three creative is.

489
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 4: It's going to sound familiar to folks because it's in

490
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 4: some sense a test second bite at the apple of

491
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 4: the Masterpiece cake Shop case that the court here just

492
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 4: a few years ago, where we had a baker who

493
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 4: refused to bake wedding cakes for same sex couples. People

494
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 4: will recall that case kind of was punted when Anthony

495
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 4: Kennedy was the deciding vote at the court. But Anthony

496
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 4: Kennedy was replaced by Brett Cavanaugh, and then we got

497
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 4: Amy Cony Barrett and So the case comes back, this

498
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 4: time in the form of a web designer, again in Colorado,

499
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 4: who doesn't actually make wedding websites, but would like to

500
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 4: maybe think about it someday, and if she does, she'd

501
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,479
Speaker 4: like to be able to discriminate against same sex couples

502
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 4: and not run a foul of the state's public accommodation's law.

503
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 4: So this is an entirely fanciful case. No harm has

504
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 4: come to her, but the court was unbelievably solicitous of

505
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 4: the pain that would be involved in being forced to

506
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 4: make same sex website.

507
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: So that's coming right, and that sounds like they might

508
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: have an opinion on that.

509
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 4: One important thing to say about that case, just for

510
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 4: listeners who we're looking to see what's coming, is there's

511
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 4: nobody on the other side of the case. At least

512
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 4: in Masterpiece Cake Shop, we had people who had somebody

513
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 4: say to their faces, I will not make this cake

514
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 4: for you because I don't believe in your lifestyle. Here

515
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 4: we have nobody, and so the only story that was

516
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 4: told at the court was that of the website designer.

517
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 4: There's because, as I said, there's no harmed party here.

518
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 4: The court when they heard this case at oral argument,

519
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 4: were so so heartbroken about her suffering, and there was

520
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 4: no one on the other side to evince any pain.

521
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: That seems like a weird scenario for the Supreme Court.

522
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, formally, you can't actually hear cases where

523
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 4: there's no to remediate, but that doesn't bother this court

524
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 4: as much as it should. And again, you know, if

525
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 4: we were talking five months ago, Molly, every single one

526
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 4: of the cases that we've talked about thus far looked

527
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 4: to be six three juggernauts.

528
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 2: So the real I think takeaway.

529
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 4: And I say this knowing as I said, there's a

530
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 4: bunch of biggies to come, is that it really feels

531
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 4: like John Roberts is back in control of his court.

532
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 4: He is writing these big, big honking voting rights decisions.

533
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 4: He seems to have somehow convinced, at least Kevanaugh and

534
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 4: Barrett that maybe they don't want to make common cause

535
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 4: with Sam Alito and the other private jet members of

536
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 4: the Court, but it's his court.

537
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 2: Again.

538
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: You have forayed very nicely into what you wrote about

539
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: this Alito private jet scandal, not to be confused with

540
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: the Clarence Thomas private jet scandal.

541
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 4: Correct, so many scandals so little time.

542
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also these people like they can't fly commercial,

543
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: Like none of these people clearly can fly commercial.

544
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: Let's just talk about this for a minute.

545
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: You sort of scratch a foe find numerous ethics violations.

546
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think that when the Justice Elee

547
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 4: story broke last week in Pro Publica, and like pause

548
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 4: as a press person to think about the fact that

549
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 4: he didn't wait for the story to break and he

550
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 4: didn't respond to their questions. He just took to the

551
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 4: pages of the Wall Street Journal Opinion section to write

552
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 4: a rebuttal of the story that had not yet dropped,

553
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 4: in which he justified everything that they said about him

554
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 4: by conceding that he did all of it but it

555
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 4: didn't violate the rules. So like, just as a press strategist,

556
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 4: like probably not a good way to make the story

557
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 4: go away.

558
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, it's just an amazing thing.

559
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: I also love that the crew at the Wall Street

560
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: Journal Opinion was happy to oblige this, getting like there's

561
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: a world where the Wall Street Journal Opinion page says, no,

562
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: you can't use us.

563
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 4: To screw over the Pro Publica reporters, yep.

564
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: Right.

565
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: And also just to get ahead of your own personal scandal.

566
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: There's nothing ideological here.

567
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 4: The Wall Street Journal, we should note, is the same

568
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 4: place that before the Dobbs leap leak happened a year ago,

569
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 4: was intimating that they knew what was happening in court discussions,

570
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 4: right the Wall Street Journal opinion section. Also, when John

571
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 4: Roberts in the Obamacare case, the first one was quote

572
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 4: unquote going wobbly and looked like he was going to

573
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 4: defect and uphold Obamacare, they also knew that in advance.

574
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 4: So somebody who does not have the greatest constitutional minds

575
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 4: on the bat phone, Mike Pence, has Dan Quayle is

576
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 4: making calls to the Wall Street Journal opinion page.

577
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: It would seem.

578
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: Right, it's sort of amazing stuff with these scandals. You

579
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: have Thomas, you have Alito, you have you know, Paul Singer.

580
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: I mean, you just have a cast of sketchy characters

581
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: like they're Historically, Congress has been able to reign in

582
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court's you know, Malfeasanzas. I mean, yes and no,

583
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: I think back in reconstruction.

584
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, in the old.

585
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 2: I should qualify that I.

586
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 4: Was gonna say, I think and folks should read Professor

587
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 4: Steve Vladdock's amazing book The Shadow Docket, where he talks

588
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 4: about all the times in history that Congress has done

589
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 4: exactly what you said, Molly, which is, you know, change

590
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 4: the composition of the court, strip the court of jurisdiction.

591
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 4: They used to force the justices to ride circuit, which

592
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 4: meant they had to like sleep in barns like right

593
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 4: around the country and like so yes, historically there was

594
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 4: a lot of power, including you know, salaries, that was

595
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 4: exercised over the court, and then this kind of freaky

596
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 4: learned helplessness set in so that you get to the

597
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 4: point we're at today where you know, lots and lots

598
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 4: and lots of elected officials are like, hum, this seems bad,

599
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,959
Speaker 4: soone should do something right.

600
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 2: It was my kurrent the frog voice.

601
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 4: I don't quite know why, but you know, like there's

602
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 4: no sense that anything that could be done to remediate

603
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 4: it is possible, and of course that's wrong. Things could

604
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 4: be done, and we're starting to see for what it's worth.

605
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 4: You know, folks like Sheldon Whitehouse, like Representative Hank Johnson.

606
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 4: You know, there's a bipartisan bill that Angus King is

607
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 4: behind you. There's now some move toward doing things to either,

608
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 4: you know, impose term limits or add seats to the court,

609
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 4: or at least ask them to create their own ethics

610
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 4: rules that they could voluntarily follow. But like there is

611
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 4: some momentum behind the idea that maybe Congress like shouldn't

612
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 4: sit and wait for the easter bunny to fix this,

613
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 4: Like it's got to get fixed. But I think you're

614
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 4: right descriptively, like there historically is a long tradition of

615
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 4: reigning in the court, and I think we've just not

616
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 4: exercised that muscle. And maybe if I could say one

617
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 4: other thing, I might say this. I think part of

618
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 4: the reason for that is that we have this fanciful

619
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 4: story we tell about court packing, right that FDR was

620
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 4: going to pack the court and then like he almost

621
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 4: direct his presidency and everybody hated him and it was

622
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 4: super bad. But this kind of animates where we started,

623
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 4: which is something is changing at the court right now

624
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 4: in terms of the doctrine, in terms of pulling back

625
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 4: from the brink of crazy. And that's exactly the thing

626
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 4: that happened. It's kind of known as the switch in

627
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 4: time that saved nine, where under the threat of court packing,

628
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 4: the justices modulated their own bad behavior and started upholding

629
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 4: FDR's New Deal legislation, and some justices left, some justices switched,

630
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 4: but they just stopped acting as though, you know, they

631
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 4: were an imperial court. And it's interesting to ask whether

632
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 4: one of the reasons we're seeing a kind of pumping

633
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 4: of the brakes doctrinally this month at the court is

634
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 4: some version of the switch in time that saved nine.

635
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 2: Right right, so interesting. Thank you, Dahlia.

636
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 4: Oh my goodness, thank you.

637
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 2: Hi.

638
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: It's Mollie and I am wildly excited that for the

639
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:21,200
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640
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641
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642
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643
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644
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645
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646
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647
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: can grab this merchandise only at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com.

648
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 2: Thanks for your support.

649
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: Wesley Lowry is the author of American White Lash, A

650
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: Changing Nation and the Cost of Progress.

651
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics, Wes.

652
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 5: Lowry, Thank you for having me.

653
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 2: Very excited to have you.

654
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: It's funny because I think about what a seminal and

655
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: important book Backlash was, and I was thinking about that

656
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: when we were talking about your new book, which is

657
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: called American Whitelash, A Changing Nation and the cost of Progress.

658
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: So talk to me a little bit about where that

659
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: comes from.

660
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 6: Sure, The way I tell the story is I had

661
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 6: spent the end of the Obama years covering the rise

662
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 6: of Black Lives Matter, covering the emergence of this kind

663
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 6: of activist energy on the left. Wrote my first book

664
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 6: about it that came out in November of twenty sixteen,

665
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 6: and you know, November and twenty sixteen was a very

666
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 6: newsless time.

667
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 5: Nothing was happening at all.

668
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 6: Well, it was this era where we knew that one

669
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,479
Speaker 6: season of our politics was ending to start another. And

670
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 6: what happened was we just ended up getting a different

671
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 6: new season than we thought we were going to get.

672
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 6: And so I was very braced for listening and trying

673
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 6: to figure out, you know, what would it look like

674
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 6: to cover the racial justice movement under the first female president,

675
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 6: And suddenly was handed a very different story. And so

676
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 6: now I was having to figure out, what does it

677
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 6: look like to cover these issues, these issues of race injustice,

678
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 6: following the election of an openly negativist president who ultimately,

679
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 6: would you know, attempt to undermine our democracy. As I

680
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 6: did that, I remember just watching story after story and

681
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 6: covering story after story of cases of violence, whether it

682
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 6: was a Muslim woman being attacked on the train in

683
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 6: Portland or Charlottesville, and the rally.

684
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 5: Of What's premises the shootings in El Paso.

685
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 6: Or Pittsburgh, and it became really clear to me that

686
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 6: on my beat, the story of this moment was going

687
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 6: to be a story of white racial violence, and trying

688
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 6: to figure out how to explain, how to contextualize what

689
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 6: we were seeing and the reality that the Trump administration

690
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 6: at the era we were in, had empowered these type

691
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 6: of people who who wanted to commit this type of violence.

692
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: Explain a little more about what that empowerment looks like.

693
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 5: Well, we want to.

694
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 6: Think about a few things, and I want to clarify,

695
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 6: you know, for a moment, I'm talking about like the

696
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 6: white supremacist movement.

697
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,240
Speaker 5: I'm talking about a vowed racist.

698
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 6: I'm not talking about like people who like make a

699
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 6: bad joke about immigrants at Thanksgiving, you know, I'm talking

700
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 6: about actually the people who want to see a race

701
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 6: war and want to see America become the whiteth no state.

702
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: I want to I just want to add later on

703
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,280
Speaker 1: the people who made the bad jokes did in fact

704
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: storm the capitals so well.

705
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 5: The mixture of both, right, right, So what happens? Right,

706
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 5: So let's think about it. We're living in a world

707
00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 5: of a black president and of.

708
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 6: Assive demographic change that is changing the way the country

709
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 6: looks and works, and our white population is extremely anxious

710
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 6: about this. By the end of the Obama administration, fifty

711
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 6: five percent of white Americans believe that white Americans are

712
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 6: racially discriminated against. In America, white people believe they are

713
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 6: a racial minority. This is where we are and t

714
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 6: Donald Trump, and what Donald Trump does is he plays

715
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 6: to these anxieties and the movement that he builds is

716
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 6: nothing starts with him. Right. We see this building with

717
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 6: the Tea Party movement. We see this building with the

718
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 6: anti immigrant movement prior to this, even back in the

719
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 6: Bush administration, in the Obama administration, but Trump engages in

720
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 6: an openly nativist rhetoric, and that rhetoric and that engagement,

721
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,720
Speaker 6: that pivot is something that's very welcome by the avaled

722
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 6: white supremacist. Trump is doing it trying to reach the

723
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 6: average white person who now thinks.

724
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 5: That they're a black person, right.

725
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,919
Speaker 6: But what he's doing is he's using the rhetoric, he's

726
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 6: using the talking points of the event racist and what

727
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 6: he has sent in what he ends up doing is

728
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 6: he ends up sending a ton of these white Americans

729
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 6: into the arms of this really dangerous movement.

730
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 5: And that results in people losing their lives.

731
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 1: Your thesis here is that this is a kind of

732
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: last gas, sort of backlash to progress.

733
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 6: The way I think about it is I think about

734
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 6: our history as a tug of war that on one

735
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 6: side you have white supremacist forces, on the other side

736
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 6: you have anti racist forces. And every time there is

737
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 6: a tug and a pull and what feels like a

738
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,959
Speaker 6: victory on behalf of multiculturalism and multiracial democracy, the white

739
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 6: supremacist forces tug back.

740
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 5: And so we've seen this.

741
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:50,439
Speaker 6: We see this following emancipation and reconstruction. We see the

742
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,919
Speaker 6: rise of the New Klan and reactionary movement. We see

743
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 6: this following the Civil Rights movement. We see the rise

744
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 6: of conservative reactionary movement, and now in this moment where

745
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 6: we elect a black president, where our country is changing demographically,

746
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 6: and where for the first time as a country we've

747
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 6: really had to be a multiracial democracy. People get to

748
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 6: vote that, it would only make sense that we would

749
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,720
Speaker 6: have that type of tug back from these forces, and

750
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 6: it helps explain a lot of what's.

751
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 5: Been going on.

752
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: Donald Trump has no historical precedent, right he has no

753
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: understanding of the kind of Nixonian sort of George Wallacey

754
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 1: racism of that generation, or does he.

755
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 6: I don't know that he has the understanding of it,

756
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 6: although I would be surprised, you know, I actually wouldn't

757
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 6: be surprised if he did have some broad knowledge of it.

758
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 5: But Donald Trump is very smart.

759
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 6: What I mean by that is that he is someone

760
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 6: who is intuitively smart about people, what they respond to,

761
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 6: what they react to. He as understands the way that

762
00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 6: nativist leaders across societies and cultures have understood that there

763
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 6: is nothing more compelling than convincing people who are scared

764
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 6: and anxious that the enemy is at the gate, and

765
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 6: that you are the one who will protect them and

766
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 6: keep them safe, that all of your problems are not

767
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 6: your fault, that it's because of some other people who

768
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 6: are different than you, who are scary, who are bringing disease,

769
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 6: who are bringing.

770
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 5: Crime, and I am going to save you from them.

771
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 5: And we have seen across all of human history leaders

772
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 5: who rise by doing this.

773
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 6: But again, here's the danger. It's very The reason people

774
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 6: do it is because it's effective relective, right. But what

775
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,280
Speaker 6: happens is when you dehumanize people, people in your society

776
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 6: start treating those people like they're not human because they've

777
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 6: been dehumanized, right, and that necessarily leads to violence and

778
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 6: to backlash and beyond that, think about it. I think

779
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 6: sometimes those of us in the media and the political media,

780
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 6: we're like in on the game in this way, right,

781
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 6: we're like, oh, we know that all these people don't

782
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 6: actually believe everything they say, and X, Y and Z.

783
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 5: Let's think about it. If the President United States is

784
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:09,919
Speaker 5: telling people.

785
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 6: That the country's southern border is being invaded by dangerous

786
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 6: disease carrying criminals, if he was telling the truth, it

787
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 6: would be our responsibility to show up with guns to

788
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 6: defend the border.

789
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 5: Right, Like our president is literally.

790
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 6: Telling us what the country's renovated, Right, how many people

791
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 6: we are country?

792
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 5: Millions of people, tens of hundreds of millions people.

793
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 6: How many people have to build take him seriously to

794
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 6: imperil somebody's life. A small portion of people taking him

795
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,760
Speaker 6: seriously creates a very dangerous environment for a lot of people.

796
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: I want you to explain a little bit about this

797
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: idea that sort of the trigger for some of this

798
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: was the election of Barack Obama.

799
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 6: I think that certainly within the actual white.

800
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 5: Supremacist movement, the election of Rock Obama was very major.

801
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 5: I do think that within our mainstream.

802
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 6: Politics, a lot of these things were boiling long before.

803
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 5: Barack Obama's election.

804
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 6: I think secondarily, though, sometimes there's a way in which

805
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 6: the election of a historic figure actually creates a permission

806
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 6: structure for people to live out their prejudices.

807
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 2: So we've seen studies that's interesting.

808
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 6: Where there are countries that say, elect their first female

809
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 6: prime minister, and open expression of misogyny actually goes up

810
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 6: following that.

811
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 5: Right among the people who voted.

812
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 2: For they feel they have a pass.

813
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 5: Now, yeah, well, I can't be a sexist.

814
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 6: I voted for Kathy right, right, right, Like it's I

815
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 6: voted for Obama twice.

816
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 5: But and then here we go, right, it's the character

817
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 5: doesn't get out.

818
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 6: And so we see in this moment, right, and we

819
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,959
Speaker 6: see this in the polling, is that white Americans far

820
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 6: outpaced Black Americans in the significance that they imbibe in

821
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 6: Barack Obama's election insomuch as it suggests progress. Right that

822
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 6: after Barack Obama's elected in the polling, white Americans say

823
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 6: that they believe it means that there's been much more

824
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 6: racial progress since the fifties andies.

825
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 5: Than what Black Americans believe.

826
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 6: In that there was this desire, and we saw this

827
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 6: in the framing all the time, there was this desire

828
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 6: for a quote unquote post racial America where if we

829
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 6: just like say it enough, maybe it's true that people

830
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 6: wanted to be able to say no, no, no, we

831
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 6: move past all of this. We have a black friend,

832
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 6: his name is Barack Obama.

833
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 5: In the White out right.

834
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 6: So therefore, all these things I feel about immigrants, and

835
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 6: all these things I feel about this, and all these

836
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 6: things I feel about this, those things can't be racism

837
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 6: or they can't be racial prejudice.

838
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 5: Because like already established, and I like black people. I

839
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 5: voted for Barack Obama.

840
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 2: Right's Y and Z.

841
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 6: And so I do think that that certainly factors into

842
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 6: our politics in this moment. I think the factor in

843
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 6: the politics not just that lead to Donald Trump, but

844
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 6: into this moment too, where we're seeing a lot of

845
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 6: reaction very centrist politics.

846
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 5: We're like, oh no, no, George Floyd was terrible. I support

847
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 5: me too, but and then bought blah blah blah blah blah,

848
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 5: and we're seeing a ton of right.

849
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 2: I think that's a really, really good point.

850
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: Can you talk about some of the sort of violence

851
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 1: that you have have written about in this book?

852
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 5: Sure? You know.

853
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 6: So what I try to do in this book is

854
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 6: I try to look at different cases and tell the

855
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 6: stories of different individuals who fell victim to the violence of.

856
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,240
Speaker 5: This era, and those are different types of violence.

857
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 6: I tell the story of Marcelo Lucero, who is an

858
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 6: Ecuadorian immigrant and beaten to death in patchav New York

859
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 6: and so Long Island right after Obama was elected. I

860
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 6: tell the story of the Sikh temple that was shot

861
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,879
Speaker 6: up in Wisconsin and anti Semitic.

862
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 5: Attack in Kansas.

863
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 6: Richard Collins who is killed in Maryland during the Trump era, Charlottesville,

864
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 6: and so what I'm trying to do is collect stories

865
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 6: that are different types of racialized violence, anti black violence,

866
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 6: immigrant violence, anti Semitic violence, anti Muslim violence, and anti

867
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 6: sek violence, and showing how even as there are unique histories,

868
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 6: there is an overlay in an overlap, right. I think

869
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 6: that sometimes in our desire to categorize, we miss the

870
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 6: bigger plot. So, for example, we just saw the sentencing

871
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 6: of the shooter.

872
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 5: And the Tree of Life Senagogue shooting.

873
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 6: In Pittsburgh, and he said this at the time, and

874
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,720
Speaker 6: he said this now in the sentencing in his trial

875
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 6: as well, that the reason he targeted that synagogue was

876
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 6: specifically because he believed it was helping resettle refugees in

877
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 6: the United States of America and contribute to the Great

878
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 6: Replacement right. So it is anti Semitic violence, right, but

879
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 6: that anti Semitic violence is tied in very specifically to

880
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 6: this anti immigrant segment in a phobia to this where

881
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 6: we see this with the shooters in Charleston and in Buffalo,

882
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 6: right where they are this is anti black violence, but

883
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 6: they are also anti Semitic.

884
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 5: They believe in a great replacement right, that white.

885
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 6: Supremacy is this conspiracy theory that implicates all of these

886
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 6: other groups. And that sometimes if we're just so hyper

887
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 6: focused on the one we miss how all these stories

888
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 6: are actually connected together.

889
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: Right. That makes a lot of sense, And ultimately I

890
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: think that the sort of message is important, which is

891
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: that you know you're opening Pandora's box and so you

892
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: know you don't get to choose who gets subjected to

893
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: the violence.

894
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 5: Correct.

895
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 6: And again, it's this interplay between these things, right where

896
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 6: we have to understand that it can be easier to think, Okay, well,

897
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 6: this person is prejudiced against those people over there or

898
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 6: this person, but the reality is everyone ends up becoming

899
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 6: implicated in this because these prejudices play.

900
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 2: Off of each other, right.

901
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: And I think that's a really good point. Where do

902
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: you kind of go from there?

903
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 5: You know, I think that a.

904
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 6: Big thing for us, and I think there are a few,

905
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 6: but I think a big thing for us first is

906
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 6: that I do think we have to be honest and

907
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 6: will to be honest to grapple with these anxieties. I

908
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 6: think sometimes in our polite political society, we have people

909
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 6: who are attempting to cause plays more liberal or progressive

910
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 6: than they are, but then in the privacy of their

911
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 6: homes and in the privacy of the ballot box, they

912
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 6: express much more anxiety and frustration and scaredness.

913
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 5: Right.

914
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 6: I think we see this around and I think we're

915
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,280
Speaker 6: seeing a lot of that in the kind of moderate

916
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 6: reactionary backlash we're seeing right now, how our institutions are

917
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 6: suddenly very concerned with appealing to Republicans and not letting

918
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 6: the wokeness go too far right. And I think that

919
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:41,359
Speaker 6: is a reflection of kind of a white moderate politics,

920
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 6: where people really are concerned about, well, what is happening

921
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 6: with crime, and what will happen if the country becomes

922
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 6: majority Hispanic.

923
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 5: And will that mean I lose out.

924
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 6: I think that pretending as if those concerns don't exist

925
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 6: doesn't help.

926
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:55,399
Speaker 5: Us, right.

927
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 6: I think we have to be willing to live in

928
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 6: the world as an exist. We saw this a lot

929
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,720
Speaker 6: with the eyes of Trump, where it was extremely clear

930
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,240
Speaker 6: from the very beginning that this was a nativist candidate

931
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 6: running on an explicit appeal.

932
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 5: To white Americans, that he was in the country the

933
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:13,399
Speaker 5: way it was We're.

934
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 6: Going to build a wall and keep the criminal Mexicans out,

935
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 6: I'm going to ban Muslims from coming here, X, Y,

936
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 6: and Z. And yet our institutions bent over backwards to

937
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 6: pretend as.

938
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 5: If that wasn't what it was. This must be about

939
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 5: these other issues, and you're just trying to say they're

940
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 5: all right. None of those was what anyone want to say.

941
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,959
Speaker 6: It was just very clear that we had a very

942
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 6: open and proud bigot running for president, and the people

943
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 6: whose job it was to tell us what the weather

944
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 6: is refuse to say what the weather was. And I

945
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 6: think that we have to be willing to be honest

946
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 6: about that. We have to be willing to be honest

947
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 6: about when Ron DeSantis, as he did yesterday, announces that

948
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 6: he would ban birthright citizenship in the United America, a

949
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 6: thing that he can't even do as president, we have

950
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 6: to be honest about what that is an appeal to

951
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 6: what he's saying. I think that sometimes there's a refusal

952
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:02,879
Speaker 6: to do that. Some of that is because we don't

953
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 6: want Republicans to say we're biased against them or that

954
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 6: we're being mean. Right, So it's all these different reasons,

955
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,760
Speaker 6: But fundamentally, I think journalism we've got to be willing

956
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:12,879
Speaker 6: to tell the truth.

957
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 5: And I think in all of our liberal.

958
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 6: Institutions, whether it's our speech groups, whether it's our public platforms, right,

959
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 6: we've got to be willing to defend multiracial democracy.

960
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 5: If someone is actively.

961
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 6: Trying to change the way our multiracial democracy works to

962
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 6: have it not be so, I think it is the

963
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 6: job of our institutions to stand up and do something

964
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 6: about that.

965
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: I'm really glad you brought that up, because I wonder

966
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 1: and we're almost out a time, but I just was wondering,

967
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: if you go quickly, do you think that the sort

968
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 1: of lie that the conservatives have told the mainstream media

969
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 1: for so long that it's too liberal has really been

970
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 1: this sort of most successful lie in American life.

971
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 5: I mean, I think it's a massive, extremely successful the

972
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 5: way that they've been able to work the refs. I

973
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 5: also think that it speaks, though, to the idea that

974
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 5: so much of the media says is about telling the

975
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 5: truth and about representing things as they are, but in reality,

976
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 5: it is about creating a commercial product.

977
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 3: Right.

978
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 5: If you don't actually have to sell a single newspaper,

979
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 5: if you don't actually have to have a single person

980
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 5: tuned in, then you can just tell the truth no

981
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 5: matter who it offends. What you're worried about is your ratings.

982
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 6: If what you're worried about is subscribers and advertisers, suddenly

983
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 6: you're having to factor in all these questions about how

984
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 6: what you're doing and what you're saying is being perceived

985
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 6: by these people, whether or not it is actually true

986
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 6: or not. So I think we see a lot of that.

987
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:37,839
Speaker 6: But beyond that, I think even most importantly though, right

988
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 6: we have to remember how young.

989
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 5: Our multiracial democracy is. That it's only existed at the

990
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:43,280
Speaker 5: end of the sixties.

991
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 6: Our media institutions were not created to defend a multiracial democracy.

992
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:49,839
Speaker 5: They were created before it existed. That they have never,

993
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 5: as part of their mission, seen in as central to

994
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 5: uphold because when their missions were crafted, it didn't exist.

995
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 5: And so what does it mean.

996
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 6: To be the press and the media in a free

997
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 6: multiracial democracy, and what does it mean to be defenders

998
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 6: of that and supporters of that as a value? And

999
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 6: some of that means constructing guardrails that when someone look

1000
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 6: the press in Germany would not quote someone ranting about

1001
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 6: the Jews.

1002
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 5: The reason they wouldn't is they've.

1003
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 6: Been there and they've done that before, and no one

1004
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 6: would argue that there's not.

1005
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 5: A free press in Germany.

1006
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 6: Right, It's that we understand that our job is to

1007
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 6: be facilitators and curators of the public square. And then

1008
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 6: as we do that, we have to decide what we

1009
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 6: allow it or what we don't. Not that no one

1010
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 6: could ever find it or not on the internet, but

1011
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 6: when you hand some on a microphone in primetime and

1012
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 6: give them a town hall, that's you inserting them and

1013
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 6: their ideas into the bloodstream of American life. And I

1014
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 6: think we have to be better stewards of what we

1015
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 6: do with that and.

1016
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 5: How we do it.

1017
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 2: Wes Lowry, I hope you'll come back anytime.

1018
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 5: You know how to get hold of me.

1019
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:05,320
Speaker 2: Oh, Jesse Cannon, Miley, junk Fast.

1020
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 3: If I was a betting man, I don't know that

1021
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 3: I would bet that Donald Trump shows up to any

1022
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 3: of these debates. But he's got a new excuse on

1023
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 3: why he may not show up.

1024
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: This is like the trumpiest Trump is. I'm right, you know,

1025
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: like the debates, they're not happening yet, but they're coming ergo.

1026
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 1: He says he might skip them. After all, he's leading

1027
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:32,879
Speaker 1: the field by forty points. Sorry, Fox News Life does

1028
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,919
Speaker 1: it work that way? The former president added, I think

1029
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: he will certainly be back and forth and back and

1030
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: forth and back and forth until the debate starts. And

1031
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:47,399
Speaker 1: for that that is our moment of fuckeray. That's it

1032
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 1: for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday,

1033
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,479
Speaker 1: and Friday to hear the best minds in politics makes

1034
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,800
Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard,

1035
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

1036
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: And again, thanks for listening.