Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I'm Katie Current and this is next question.
Speaker 1: On today's episode, women are in crisis, and I think
Speaker 1: we realize that no one is coming to save us.
Speaker 1: Reshma Sujani on the state of women's progress and the
Speaker 1: impact the pandemic has had on our careers, mental health,
Speaker 1: and lives. After decades of advancement in the workplace, more
Speaker 1: women dropped out of the labor force over the past
Speaker 1: two years than ever before. But that's why the former
Speaker 1: Girls Who Code CEO says there's no time like the
Speaker 1: present for systemic change. We were told that if we
Speaker 1: leaned in hard enough, if we girl bossed our way,
Speaker 1: there was an express train to the top. We have
Speaker 1: just set women up to fail. And so if you
Speaker 1: believe like never ways to go to crisis, like there's
Speaker 1: never then been a moment for us to redesign the workplace,
Speaker 1: then there is right now. And Rushma has a plan,
Speaker 1: which she lays out in her new book called Pay Up.
Speaker 1: The Future of Women and Work and Why It's different
Speaker 1: than you think. We'll get to all of that and
Speaker 1: more in this conversation, but first let's talk about you, Rushma,
Speaker 1: because I learned some things about you that I didn't
Speaker 1: quite realize. Tell us about your parents and about your
Speaker 1: journey as a kid and going to law school. Just
Speaker 1: give me the Rushma story and for five seconds, Okay,
Speaker 1: let me make it quick. My parents came here as refugees.
Speaker 1: They were two of a thousand engineers who got to
Speaker 1: come here because they were kicked out by Idi aman Um.
Speaker 1: My father worked as a machinist and a plant My
Speaker 1: mother sold cosmetics, and I my dad would read to
Speaker 1: me about these incredible people like Dr King and Mahama Gandhi,
Speaker 1: and so from the time I was little, I wanted
Speaker 1: to change the world, like as sappy as it sounds, Katie,
Speaker 1: like I wanted to give back to this country that
Speaker 1: saved my parents life. I graduated three, was knowledge to
Speaker 1: loan bet did what every good Indian girl thinks she
Speaker 1: should do, was listen to my parents and got that
Speaker 1: safe job, you know, so I could get married and
Speaker 1: have that middle class life. And I was miserable the
Speaker 1: whole way because I just always wanted to run for
Speaker 1: office and be a public servant. I decided to try
Speaker 1: that and I ran for Congress. I basically did what
Speaker 1: AOC did except ten years earlier. And she lost. I
Speaker 1: mean I should say I lost, she won, um, But
Speaker 1: it was the best experience of my life because I
Speaker 1: failed for the very first time. And when you run
Speaker 1: for office like you can't I that like everybody knows
Speaker 1: when you lost, and I was broke, I was humiliated.
Speaker 1: I had piste off everybody in the democratic establishment. But
Speaker 1: I was free and that feeling of being like wow,
Speaker 1: like what are the other things I told myself I
Speaker 1: couldn't do, and let me go do them and let
Speaker 1: me fail at them too, and it just it started
Speaker 1: this life of just brave, not perfect, I say, starting
Speaker 1: girls who code when I didn't code, and I didn't
Speaker 1: bother to learn, you know, building a movement to teach,
Speaker 1: you know, to talk about moms and say they should
Speaker 1: get paid. Though I'm not an economist, and so I
Speaker 1: think it's just like it freed me to say what
Speaker 1: I want to say, not care what other people think,
Speaker 1: and to be a warrior. Was that scary though, rush my,
Speaker 1: I mean you you say it like no big whoop.
Speaker 1: I failed and I was okay with it and it
Speaker 1: was liberating at the same time. It must have been
Speaker 1: as you said, it's humiliating to fail, especially on a
Speaker 1: public stage and I something I can relate to. It
Speaker 1: was scary well also because I was, you know, as
Speaker 1: the first South Asian woman to run for office. You know,
Speaker 1: my parents had taught me to like not call attention
Speaker 1: to yourself, right not, you know, like basically drawn the lines.
Speaker 1: And here I was going out there. I had no
Speaker 1: idea what I was doing. You know, I didn't have
Speaker 1: friends and fancy places. I didn't know how to hire
Speaker 1: a campaign manager. I'd never asked anybody for a check before,
Speaker 1: and so all of it was like the first time.
Speaker 1: I remember even going into senior centers and like having
Speaker 1: to pronounce my name and you know, and just knowing
Speaker 1: what to say. And I didn't know what I was doing.
Speaker 1: And I remember my first you were gonna appreciate this,
Speaker 1: My first television interview ever was with Chris Matthews and
Speaker 1: he was so mean to me. I didn't even know
Speaker 1: like where to look in the screen. I was looking
Speaker 1: in the wrong place. I mean, it was right, it
Speaker 1: was about it. I'm still still I cannot watch that interview.
Speaker 1: Uh so it was it was high stakes, high fear,
Speaker 1: but high excitement. And I think when you do something
Speaker 1: like that at age thirty, three, and you're kind of like, well, okay,
Speaker 1: I can do anything. And even the public failure was
Speaker 1: so interesting because I mean, I'm not it hurt, I cried.
Speaker 1: I you drank Margarita's for like a month, being like
Speaker 1: what happened? What happened? What happened when I do wrong?
Speaker 1: And then I moved on And and that was the
Speaker 1: their lesson about failure. Like you, I'm sure you can
Speaker 1: appreciate this, right. You can't keep thinking about it and
Speaker 1: reliving it. You gotta let it go. And I learned
Speaker 1: that lesson. You know, at a young age. Girls Who
Speaker 1: Code was a phenomenal success that you launched. And you
Speaker 1: just said I didn't know how to code. I hadn't
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't really you weren't familiar with the
Speaker 1: tech world. Just take us back to why you wanted
Speaker 1: to create Girls Who Code. Well, when I was running
Speaker 1: for office, I would go into New York City schools
Speaker 1: and I would go into computer science classes and I
Speaker 1: would see like lines and lines of boys trying to
Speaker 1: be the next step jobs or Mark Zuckerberg. And I
Speaker 1: was like Gates for Bill Gates, and like, you know,
Speaker 1: I knew that the valley was a boys club, But
Speaker 1: I didn't know that that club started in high school.
Speaker 1: And then I started learning about like what you make
Speaker 1: as a software programmer A hundred and twenty thousand dollars
Speaker 1: what like, and as as I've had a job since
Speaker 1: I was twelve, like basking Robbins, walking dogs, like retail,
Speaker 1: and so the idea that you could make that much
Speaker 1: money and maybe even like make a difference, I was like,
Speaker 1: why does every girl I know, like, you know, we
Speaker 1: know about this? And so I made it my mission
Speaker 1: to kind of make that happen. So I really approached
Speaker 1: the problem from an equity perspective and from a perspective
Speaker 1: of also like, wow, what if if girls had this
Speaker 1: arsenal of being able to code, Like what are the
Speaker 1: problems that they could solve? Cancer, climate, COVID everything? And
Speaker 1: that's what got me excited about it. And here's the
Speaker 1: other thing, you know, Katie, I wasn't a coder, so
Speaker 1: I didn't know any better. I wasn't in those computer
Speaker 1: science classes with those microaggressions. I didn't go to a
Speaker 1: Google interview and people get asked, you know what am
Speaker 1: I doing afterwards? Like I didn't face the sexism and
Speaker 1: the discrimination you know, and all of the barriers. So
Speaker 1: I went at it like let's go do this, Like
Speaker 1: let's go build this massive pipeline and like infiltrate every
Speaker 1: single tech company. And it was a little bit of
Speaker 1: that nativity right that I think enabled me to build
Speaker 1: this massive movement when we come back. Why we can't
Speaker 1: just girl boss our way to the top? Reschma's action
Speaker 1: plan right after this, let's talk about pay up your
Speaker 1: new book and this call for action. You believe there's
Speaker 1: no time like the present to rethink policies, attitudes, behaviors, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 1: Why Because I don't think it's ever been a worse
Speaker 1: time to be a woman, you know, from reproductive rights
Speaker 1: to you know, our job losses, to our mental health.
Speaker 1: Like we women are in crisis, and I think we
Speaker 1: realized that no one is coming to save us. You know,
Speaker 1: at the start of the endemic, almost twelve million women
Speaker 1: were pushed out of the labor force, and when the
Speaker 1: job's report came out, men had joined the labor market
Speaker 1: at twenty seven times the rate of women. You know,
Speaker 1: one in three women are now thinking about changing their jobs.
Speaker 1: You know, of women say that their mental health has
Speaker 1: actually declined like, we are not okay, and this isn't
Speaker 1: just a pandemic story. We've always been juggling too much.
Speaker 1: And so if you believe like never wats to go
Speaker 1: a crisis, like there's never then been a moment for
Speaker 1: us to redesign the workplace, then there is right now.
Speaker 1: Tell me about the twelve million because I keep hearing
Speaker 1: three point five million women have left the workforce. Can
Speaker 1: you help me understand the difference and those numbers. So
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the pandemic, you know, from March
Speaker 1: of you saw almost twelve million women leave, and then
Speaker 1: women would come back and then you know, basically I
Speaker 1: would say a couple of you know, at the beginning
Speaker 1: of the fall, we were still missing three million women,
Speaker 1: and I think the latest numbers say we're missing one
Speaker 1: point one million. But here's the thing, Katie. The women
Speaker 1: that have not come back our moms. So a lot
Speaker 1: of childless women are re entering, but parents are not.
Speaker 1: And so part of what you know, I was just
Speaker 1: talking to um the Secretary of Commerces team right now
Speaker 1: and this I was saying, I'm like, we need a
Speaker 1: women's jobs are because there's so many numbers being thrown about,
Speaker 1: But we need to exactly understand who's re entering and
Speaker 1: if they're not re entering, what do they need? Is
Speaker 1: it because of childcare? Is it because their job has
Speaker 1: been automated, you know? Is it because their schools are
Speaker 1: shut down or their kids are in crisis? Are they
Speaker 1: down shifting? You know? But the the interesting thing is
Speaker 1: is we know that more women are leaving, you know,
Speaker 1: even in the great more women are quitting, and we
Speaker 1: know some of the reasons why they're quitting. And you
Speaker 1: then the thing that keeps coming up is childcare. And
Speaker 1: you say, this problem predates the pandemics. So what is
Speaker 1: the root of it? Why does it suck to be
Speaker 1: a working mom in America? Well? I think part of
Speaker 1: it is because we've been sold what I call the
Speaker 1: big Lie. You know, we were we were told that
Speaker 1: if we leaned in hard enough, if we girl bossed
Speaker 1: our way, you know, there was an express train to
Speaker 1: the top. And you understand this as a mother, we
Speaker 1: have never been able to balance being the type of
Speaker 1: mom we wanted to be with the type of worker
Speaker 1: that we are expected to be. And so we have
Speaker 1: just set women up to fail. And if you even
Speaker 1: look at historically, you know, from Rosie the riverter right
Speaker 1: to the Girl Boss today, it's like we were always
Speaker 1: expected to hide our motherhood and to do it all,
Speaker 1: and to you know, basically have it all was just
Speaker 1: a euphanism for doing it all. And so I think
Speaker 1: we need to expose the big lie and again redesign
Speaker 1: workplaces so they actually are, you know, essentially are the
Speaker 1: reality of how we live and work as moms. The
Speaker 1: US has the artist drop and marital happiness after kids
Speaker 1: and the world. Can you unpack that for us? Rushima,
Speaker 1: and you talk very honestly about your own situation and
Speaker 1: the frustrations you experienced. Steven, though you have a really
Speaker 1: good marriage. Yeah, I mean I was dying to have kids.
Speaker 1: I had more rounds of I v F than I
Speaker 1: could actually count. All I wanted to be was a mom.
Speaker 1: And again I think because I bought into the big line,
Speaker 1: I didn't realize how hard it was going to be
Speaker 1: being a mom and running girls who code. And I
Speaker 1: think part of what what drove my husband and I
Speaker 1: into couples counseling was, you know, I took all my
Speaker 1: paid leave off and he didn't. And so those first
Speaker 1: couple of months while I'm breastfeeding, I was the one
Speaker 1: doing the laundry and doing the shopping and figuring out
Speaker 1: whether the diaper bad was packed. Like my to do
Speaker 1: list got bigger in his got smaller, and we did
Speaker 1: become that household where I was doing eight six percent
Speaker 1: of the domestic labor, all the while maintaining my big job.
Speaker 1: And he had hits and so, and I didn't understand
Speaker 1: it because I thought that, like everywhere I looked on
Speaker 1: Instagram or social media, it seemed like you could have right,
Speaker 1: these perfectly equitable marriages, And so why was it mine?
Speaker 1: What was wrong with me? What had I not trained
Speaker 1: my partner, you know, good enough? And then COVID made
Speaker 1: it worse because I think what a lot of us
Speaker 1: told ourselves, Well, they just don't know how much we do.
Speaker 1: But now they saw us in between running the largest
Speaker 1: women and girls organization in the world, doing the laundry,
Speaker 1: doing the dishes, doing the homeschooling. Right, it wasn't that
Speaker 1: they didn't know, but that it didn't matter because part
Speaker 1: of the problem had always been that that work, that
Speaker 1: domestic work, has never been valued, and so it hasn't
Speaker 1: been prioritized for them. So they didn't do it. In fact,
Speaker 1: Melinda Gates rights that him and do an average of
Speaker 1: seven more years of work if you account for everything
Speaker 1: they're doing inside the home in terms of taking care
Speaker 1: of things that you just mentioned in terms of raising kids.
Speaker 1: I mean, couldn't you just have a heart to heart
Speaker 1: with your husband and say, listen, honey, this is not
Speaker 1: working for me. And if you don't start, you know,
Speaker 1: pulling your weight, this isn't happening. That's what I would
Speaker 1: have done. Well, I think that's I think I did,
Speaker 1: and I think we have. I mean, look, look, I'm
Speaker 1: outing him in a book, right, So it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: he's definitely his to do list past gotten bigger. But
Speaker 1: the point is still, Katie, right, why is that our
Speaker 1: that becomes our problem to fix? I got another job
Speaker 1: and I gotta fix my partner. And part of what
Speaker 1: in writing this book, you know, what I'm excited to
Speaker 1: talk about, is that it is not just a personal problem.
Speaker 1: Society has set it up that way for men not
Speaker 1: to do the character taking. Think about the paid leave,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk about solutions later. But so many companies,
Speaker 1: including Apple, still don't have gender neutral pay lead policies.
Speaker 1: So they corporations, companies are not setting up relationships to
Speaker 1: start and have a fighting chance at gender equality. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not until fairly recently that even if you think
Speaker 1: about the images you see on television and in magazines, right,
Speaker 1: it's like we praise then you know, when they are
Speaker 1: strolling down a baby down the streeter changing a diaper
Speaker 1: as if it's you know, exceptional. You know, I can
Speaker 1: I can post that, you know, I walk my son
Speaker 1: to school, and I'm not getting five hundred likes. So
Speaker 1: so again, like we just have to really shift essentially
Speaker 1: who does the character taking, whether that work is actually valued,
Speaker 1: and have a really honest conversation if we're going to
Speaker 1: get to gender quality. It's not about just getting a
Speaker 1: sponsor or a mentor or even figuring out pay equity.
Speaker 1: It's about how do you shift the balance of work
Speaker 1: in every single household. I mean, even the debate that
Speaker 1: we're having in Congress around the child tax credit is insane,
Speaker 1: right that, like Joe Manchin says, well, you shouldn't get
Speaker 1: a child tax unless you're working, As if the work
Speaker 1: that I do every single day at home it's not work.
Speaker 1: Explain that for us, for people who may not be
Speaker 1: following the legislation, what the tax child credit would do,
Speaker 1: and why it is problematic if it's only for working moms. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So for a long time, we we in the United States,
Speaker 1: you know, we have been against giving a child tax
Speaker 1: credit to parents who are not in the workforce. And
Speaker 1: in COVID President Biden changed that and said essentially, any
Speaker 1: parent of a certain income you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: gets uh, you know, thirty a month, right, you know,
Speaker 1: if they have a child, and it is set to expire.
Speaker 1: And there's a big debate in Congress about whether we
Speaker 1: should extend it. And Senator Mansion has been against extending
Speaker 1: it because he thinks that you should only get it
Speaker 1: if you're a parent in the workplace. And so what
Speaker 1: he's saying is that you should only get it if
Speaker 1: you are a parent that is working, and that if
Speaker 1: you're not working, you're not entitled to a benefit. And
Speaker 1: why this is deeply problematic is the United I means,
Speaker 1: it's a very it's not the typical perspective that you
Speaker 1: see in other nations like the United Kingdom for example,
Speaker 1: or you know, the Nordic countries, where in the UK
Speaker 1: you got a parental income every month if you had
Speaker 1: a kid, and so because it is very expensive to
Speaker 1: be a parent. But in this country, we see deciding
Speaker 1: to be a parent as a choice. It's your personal
Speaker 1: problem that you have to solve. Not the government, not
Speaker 1: your employer, not even your partner is obligated to help
Speaker 1: or support you. And young women are looking at that
Speaker 1: saying not me, I don't want to do it. There
Speaker 1: are a lot of problems that are exacerbated Reshma by
Speaker 1: that attitude. I mean where does that Where does that
Speaker 1: leave us as a country? Yeah? I mean one it
Speaker 1: leaves us of I think, never getting to gender quality
Speaker 1: unless we start investing in in these types of policies,
Speaker 1: whether it's the government or whether it's you know, um
Speaker 1: companies like let's take childcare for example. It is very
Speaker 1: clear by the data that the that the million women
Speaker 1: that are not entering the workforce re entering or who
Speaker 1: have downshifted, right because we're not talking about that either, um,
Speaker 1: it's because childcare is not affordable. We still have half
Speaker 1: of our daycare centers that are shut down. I think
Speaker 1: they say childcare costs have gone up by you know,
Speaker 1: for you know, during the pandemic, and so you know,
Speaker 1: if we do not solve childcare, you'll never get women
Speaker 1: to return to the workforce in the same place that
Speaker 1: they have been historically in the past, which means we're
Speaker 1: gonna lose out in the diversity, you know, and by
Speaker 1: extension in you know, the innovation of our country and
Speaker 1: the long term economics success of our nation is actually
Speaker 1: going in to suffer. And so right now in government,
Speaker 1: you know, President Biden have proposed that we have a
Speaker 1: seven percent ceiling on the amount that you'll spend on
Speaker 1: your childcare. You know, that bill is not being passed
Speaker 1: in Congress right now, and so you have rising childcare costs,
Speaker 1: no intervention by the government. And so one of the
Speaker 1: things I argue in the book is that we've got
Speaker 1: to start asking companies to start subsidizing childcare. You know,
Speaker 1: right now less than companies subsidized childcare. But as we're
Speaker 1: having a race to the bottom in terms of salaries
Speaker 1: and we're in the middle of the talent war, one
Speaker 1: of the things I think that companies should be considering
Speaker 1: is starting to pay for childcare as a way to
Speaker 1: retain and attract talent. Don't you think on the one hand,
Speaker 1: the pandemic made things terrible. On the other we have
Speaker 1: some additional forces that seem to be encouraging people to
Speaker 1: make a change. We have work at home policies. It
Speaker 1: seems like employers are having to be more flexible. As
Speaker 1: you said, there's a worker shortage. Aren't all these things
Speaker 1: going to push companies in the right direction? Reschma. I
Speaker 1: mean it's interesting, like my books coming out at the
Speaker 1: two year anniversary of the pandemic, and I have not
Speaker 1: seen as many policy changes from companies as I would like.
Speaker 1: You know, they're still offering like free museum tickets and
Speaker 1: egg freezing, but they're not paying for my childcare. They're
Speaker 1: not incentivizing men to take pay leave and tying it
Speaker 1: to their compensation. There's still resisting flexibility and remote working.
Speaker 1: So I do think that while one would think, right
Speaker 1: if you were a CEO today, I mean certainly as
Speaker 1: a CEO right, that this is the time to start
Speaker 1: maybe redesigning and rethinking about how we've traditionally done things.
Speaker 1: I think the knee jerk reaction is to go back
Speaker 1: to where it was before, and part of that is
Speaker 1: because I think that the folks who need the most
Speaker 1: amount of redesign are working moms, and we are the
Speaker 1: most tired you're having, uh you know, constituency group that
Speaker 1: is exhausted, higher race of mental anxiety and depression, you know,
Speaker 1: and and and at the same time, we're the ones
Speaker 1: who need the change. And so this is also why,
Speaker 1: which is very fascinating, Katie, that the that women are
Speaker 1: quitting it at a much higher rates than men. So
Speaker 1: I'd rather quit my job and say, hey, know what,
Speaker 1: I need flexibility, you know what I mean, I need
Speaker 1: support here or there, because we're so used to this
Speaker 1: being told to us is our personal problem, that you
Speaker 1: don't get to ask for support. That we're still breastfeeding
Speaker 1: in closets, you know what I mean, and hiding pictures
Speaker 1: of our kids and lying about going to our kids
Speaker 1: soccer game or doctor's appointments because we're supposed to hide
Speaker 1: our mother and we're not crazy for doing that. That
Speaker 1: is what we have been taught that the way to succeed,
Speaker 1: the way to get the corner office is to basically
Speaker 1: pretend you not a mom. Are any company is doing
Speaker 1: it right, doing it well. That can be held up
Speaker 1: as a model for others to say, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: you're not going to sacrifice productivity or the bottom line.
Speaker 1: In fact, you may increase it if you're more accommodating
Speaker 1: to working moms. And you know, ps, I think you're
Speaker 1: not going to get gender equality if they're not more
Speaker 1: accommodating to working dads. Yes, there are. You know, Walmart
Speaker 1: had introduced something, uh, basically for salary workers. A lot
Speaker 1: of salary workers want flexibility, but if you're an hourly worker,
Speaker 1: what you want is predictability. You work in retail, Walmart,
Speaker 1: you got the seven pm shift, you arrange for childcare,
Speaker 1: You show up for your seven pm shift, and guess what,
Speaker 1: It's been canceled. Now you're out money. So what Walmart
Speaker 1: had done is basically designed an app that allows employees
Speaker 1: essentially switch shifts with one another and so that they
Speaker 1: can get more predictability over their schedule. Simple. Everybody should
Speaker 1: be doing this. Petigo only has always been doing incredible
Speaker 1: things in terms of their paid leave benefits. You know
Speaker 1: a handful of companies like Google, like Disney, you know,
Speaker 1: have offered on site care. So I do think that
Speaker 1: there are companies. You know, Google just announced that they've
Speaker 1: increased the amount of paid leave in sick days that
Speaker 1: they're offering for their you know, employees, and so I
Speaker 1: think that there are companies that have been innovative and
Speaker 1: have been pushing this issue, but we definitely definitely need more.
Speaker 1: What I worry about is we don't want it to
Speaker 1: be a band aid fixed for the pandemic. So I'm
Speaker 1: gonna offer you know, I'm gonna pay for your child
Speaker 1: care now. I'm gonna give your predictability and flexibility now.
Speaker 1: But when things go back to normal, we go back
Speaker 1: to normal. And so I think what we want to
Speaker 1: do is really connect the economic cost of not actually
Speaker 1: changing these structures, you know, for companies, in terms of attrition,
Speaker 1: in terms of innovation, in terms of diversity, so that
Speaker 1: we get wholesale changes you know that we embed into
Speaker 1: our workplaces forever. Have you seen evidence that some companies
Speaker 1: are seeing this as a band aid and a temporary fix. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean you're seeing You're there are a bunch of
Speaker 1: articles that came out, you know, a month ago about
Speaker 1: how companies have started pulling their paid leave policies, you know,
Speaker 1: like Amazon, And I definitely think that when I talked
Speaker 1: to CEOs here in New York City, everybody is jonesing
Speaker 1: for people to get back into the office. It's just
Speaker 1: it's it's the way things have been, you know, listen.
Speaker 1: I just think that we think that. One of the
Speaker 1: other fascinating things in writing pay Up that I really
Speaker 1: learned was that we've been trying to solve the pay
Speaker 1: gap forever, and the pay gap really exists between moms
Speaker 1: and dads. There is essentially no pay gap between childless
Speaker 1: women and childless men, because when we think about a
Speaker 1: mom and she enters the workforce, we think that she's
Speaker 1: not as focused, she's not as committed, that she's distracted,
Speaker 1: and we dock her and pay or in opportunities because
Speaker 1: of that. I do think the negligence, you know, one
Speaker 1: of the not silver linings of the pandemic is everyone's
Speaker 1: seen everything you've seen that I do have kids, that
Speaker 1: they do interrupt me how I do operate in my house,
Speaker 1: and you've made more judgments about my commitment, my dedication
Speaker 1: to my job. And so I think that women are
Speaker 1: being more penalized, you know what I mean, for their
Speaker 1: caretaking than they were pre COVID because we were hiding
Speaker 1: it before then. And so I do think the cultural
Speaker 1: shift of like you know, like you would think right
Speaker 1: that we all would have gotten a memo being like,
Speaker 1: what do you need? I see that schools are closed,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And all the data has
Speaker 1: been out there, there's an article written every one minute
Speaker 1: about this. But none of us got that memo. There
Speaker 1: has not been this declaration of companies who are saying
Speaker 1: we stand up for moms. We're going to bail out
Speaker 1: mops and we're gonna ask them what they need, and
Speaker 1: we're going to redesign our workplaces, you know. And so
Speaker 1: we have got to demand that. And so one of
Speaker 1: the things I'm trying to do with pay Up is
Speaker 1: ignite this, you know, this workplace organizing in to say
Speaker 1: to mom's you, it doesn't have to be this way.
Speaker 1: You deserve these things. These are the tools for you
Speaker 1: to ask for these things and and start raising that
Speaker 1: consciousness level. Right. Um. But it goes very much against
Speaker 1: everything that kind of feminism and these workplace books have
Speaker 1: basically to including myself, you know, I've been preaching the
Speaker 1: gospel of you know, corporate feminism absolutely. I mean, Katie,
Speaker 1: I remember like when I'd be speaking at a conference
Speaker 1: and a young woman would raise her hand she said,
Speaker 1: Mr Johnny, you know, but how do you balance, you know,
Speaker 1: your family and your job. I would literally waive her away.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm embarrassed that I actually acted and and made
Speaker 1: her feel like it was not something she should be
Speaker 1: concerned about. And so when she became a mom and
Speaker 1: she struggled with that balance, she thought, gosh, there's something
Speaker 1: wrong with me, and there was nothing ever wrong with you.
Speaker 1: This system was always stabbed against you. What should you
Speaker 1: have said to that young woman. I should have said
Speaker 1: to the young woman, one give yourself grace to how
Speaker 1: do you ask your employer and your partner and our government,
Speaker 1: you know, and for what you need and for what
Speaker 1: you deserve, and that that the system is staffed against you,
Speaker 1: and that instead of like spending all that time trying
Speaker 1: to just you know, lean in and you know, climb
Speaker 1: your way to the to the corner office, figure out
Speaker 1: how you can basically be both pieces of yourself in
Speaker 1: a way that is healthy. We'll be right back. You
Speaker 1: talk about corporations, but tell us the status of the
Speaker 1: Martial Plan for Moms and just review what's in it.
Speaker 1: Although we've talked a lot about the events of it already. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, when we we when we launched from really
Speaker 1: focused on making sure Build Back Better passes, and the
Speaker 1: components of Build Back Better had the things that my
Speaker 1: pt mom said that they needed to return back to
Speaker 1: work better, you know, which was affordable childcare, paid leave,
Speaker 1: opening up schools safely, you know, reach training for women
Speaker 1: who have been automated out of the workforce, and getting
Speaker 1: rid of the motherhood penalty. And so listen, this has
Speaker 1: been a tough year for us as activists in terms
Speaker 1: of the fact that it is so you know, it
Speaker 1: couldn't get any worse for moms and for women, and
Speaker 1: we still couldn't pass that bill. Wow, what does that
Speaker 1: really say about what you think about us? And so
Speaker 1: I think we've had to turn and say, but we
Speaker 1: can't leave moms out there like that with no support.
Speaker 1: So what's the other way that we can get them changed?
Speaker 1: And so we're really focused now on the private sector
Speaker 1: and figuring out whether the private sector can step in
Speaker 1: and off for you know what I mean, the support
Speaker 1: levers that that moms and working women need right now.
Speaker 1: So one, you know, we're building a campaign to push
Speaker 1: companies to start subsidizing childcare, and we're doing the math
Speaker 1: that the cost of attrition is actually gonna higher then
Speaker 1: if you started paying for childcare. You know, one of
Speaker 1: the impediments to subsidize in childcare has always been real estate.
Speaker 1: Well there's plenty of open real estate now because you know,
Speaker 1: we're never gonna go back to five days of work
Speaker 1: a week, right probably, so this may be an opportunity
Speaker 1: right to start building you know what I mean in
Speaker 1: you know, in office care, you know, for working parents,
Speaker 1: and we need to start exploring that, you know, in
Speaker 1: second or other lovers, like providing cash, you know, backup
Speaker 1: care again, all the different ways that we can actually
Speaker 1: start taking on that piece of childcare. You know. The
Speaker 1: second thing is it's not enough to talk about paid
Speaker 1: leave without basically starting trying to push companies, to push
Speaker 1: men to take it to at the same levels as us.
Speaker 1: How do you make that happen? Well, one basic thing
Speaker 1: is you should have gender neutral paid leave policies. There's
Speaker 1: no reason why any company should be offering tweeks to
Speaker 1: women in four weeks to two. Dad's no no reason,
Speaker 1: you know. And secondly, even more so, I think we
Speaker 1: should be tying performance or compensation to whether you do
Speaker 1: take leave. You know, you don't. Companies shouldn't get to tout, oh,
Speaker 1: we offered paid leave. Well, and I want to know
Speaker 1: who's taking it. Who do you offer it to? Who
Speaker 1: takes it? What's your culture? Do you gaslight men when
Speaker 1: they do, because all the data shows that like men,
Speaker 1: you know, less diabetes less heart attacks, live longer when
Speaker 1: they spend time and care for their kids. They want
Speaker 1: to do it, but they're penalized, but they're penalized when
Speaker 1: they do. And I'm sure you've seen this right. You know,
Speaker 1: you've admitted to having an anti mom bias at points
Speaker 1: in your career. And I have to say, I remember
Speaker 1: somebody taking paternity leave when I was working at Yahoo
Speaker 1: and thinking, what you know? So it's one thing to
Speaker 1: to want to support these policies, but when push comes
Speaker 1: to shove and like somebody you need at work is
Speaker 1: gone for twelve weeks, you're like, shit, really, I'm not
Speaker 1: digging this. Yeah, I listen the same thing for me.
Speaker 1: I mean at Girls and Crowd, like almost of my
Speaker 1: employees were women, and somebody was pregnant all the time,
Speaker 1: somebody was out all the time, and there were moments
Speaker 1: I'm like, why have I offered this generous? You know,
Speaker 1: and I'm a nonprofit but I think the thing is
Speaker 1: is like it is the right thing to do for society.
Speaker 1: And I will say every time we did, we inspired loyalty.
Speaker 1: We had low rates of attrition, and people people stayed
Speaker 1: with you because you helped them during a to off
Speaker 1: time in their lives, and it mattered. And so I
Speaker 1: think the benefits essentially outweigh the costs um and so
Speaker 1: I think we just have to keep reminding ourselves. I
Speaker 1: also just think that, like, you know, it's interesting. I
Speaker 1: think Norway is a good test example for this is
Speaker 1: that when they started putting policies like this into place
Speaker 1: where essentially you would have to take it or lose
Speaker 1: it or tying it to compensation, you know, they went
Speaker 1: from like a small percentage of men taking it to
Speaker 1: the overwhelming amount of men taking it, and the entire
Speaker 1: culture of caretaking changed dramatically. You know, I have two boys,
Speaker 1: and I I want I have to make a conscious
Speaker 1: effort every day, every day to get them to be caretakers.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons why we have a shortage of
Speaker 1: nurses and teachers is because we don't have any men
Speaker 1: going into those professions, you know, and those professions, especially
Speaker 1: in home care, are the future. So like men rather
Speaker 1: go on unemployment than work in those jobs. What is
Speaker 1: that saying about our society? What we have taught men?
Speaker 1: And so that has got to shift. And you know,
Speaker 1: and finally, the thing I've think been thinking again we've
Speaker 1: talked about the book is mental health. You know, I know,
Speaker 1: I've had a lot of friends who have gone, you know,
Speaker 1: into rehab, you know who addiction issues have popped back up,
Speaker 1: you know, during the past couple of years that are
Speaker 1: just really really struggling. You know, they're losing their temper,
Speaker 1: losing their patients, are just not sleeping, exhausted, just all
Speaker 1: of it. Are the worst kind of health state that
Speaker 1: they've ever been. And now we're saying we'll come back
Speaker 1: to work and doors are open, and women are coming
Speaker 1: back not fully there because at the same time we're
Speaker 1: having to manage what's happening with our kids. I mean
Speaker 1: my two children. You know, my two year old, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: I can't talk and I have a someone, a speech
Speaker 1: therapist come he's too and I had to take him.
Speaker 1: He is like zero percent weight. So, like all of
Speaker 1: this pandemic related, My seven year old has anxiety and
Speaker 1: eats his clothes. You know, and and so I my
Speaker 1: mind is always focused on and them and how am
Speaker 1: I helping them? How am I healing them? And then
Speaker 1: I know we're about me. And so I think so
Speaker 1: many of us as parents are in this state of mind.
Speaker 1: And I do think that companies to acknowledge that there's
Speaker 1: that I I I bear that burden of my kid's
Speaker 1: mental health a little bit more than my husband does.
Speaker 1: And not because it is he doesn't love and care
Speaker 1: them and all that, but but there it weighs on me,
Speaker 1: and I think it weighs on mom. And this goes
Speaker 1: back to like we're not gonna stop being who we
Speaker 1: are and moms and are worrying or are carrying or
Speaker 1: are obsessing, right like, it's who we are. And I
Speaker 1: think that that's going back to companies. I feel like
Speaker 1: they have to accept us for who we are and
Speaker 1: recognize and provide us the support in this moment, you know,
Speaker 1: so we don't have to downshift our careers and we
Speaker 1: don't have to choose between our job and our it.
Speaker 1: What about government solutions? Have you given up on that now?
Speaker 1: And you can't. We can't give up on that, right
Speaker 1: because even if the Priva Center starts offering some of
Speaker 1: these solutions, it won't reach everyone, and we've got to
Speaker 1: reach everyone. It's not right if the corner office personal
Speaker 1: works in Walmart, you know what I mean, gets paid
Speaker 1: le even affordable childcare, but the person working in this
Speaker 1: tour doesn't. And we don't want to create a society
Speaker 1: where depending upon you know, how much money you make
Speaker 1: or the color of your skin, you know, determines whether
Speaker 1: you can or cannot have a child or thrive, you know,
Speaker 1: in your mental health. And so we need government to act.
Speaker 1: I think though, that moms we need to organize too.
Speaker 1: You know, if you think about every major mother's movement
Speaker 1: that's out there, it's always moms organizing for their kids,
Speaker 1: drunk driving, guns, you know what I mean, climate, you
Speaker 1: name it. But moms have to start organizing for moms.
Speaker 1: And maybe it was too much to ask right for
Speaker 1: us to do that this year, but we start have
Speaker 1: to start. And I think workplaces is where moms are
Speaker 1: focused because that is so deeply connected to their everyday
Speaker 1: life as mothers. Am I going to get time on
Speaker 1: flexibility so I can take my kids to their therapy
Speaker 1: appointment at three o'clock? Right? Am I going to be
Speaker 1: able to spend some time with their kids doing their
Speaker 1: homework because they need my attention right now, or is
Speaker 1: my office going to tell me that I need to
Speaker 1: be there from nine to six and that's it, right
Speaker 1: And so this workplace activism and organizing is really critical
Speaker 1: to moms right now, and we're going to teach them
Speaker 1: how to do it and what can be done right
Speaker 1: now by moms and bosses while we wait for the
Speaker 1: government to hopefully give more support. And when you say
Speaker 1: the government is needed, so some people don't have these
Speaker 1: advantages and others don't, are you suggesting the government needs
Speaker 1: to mandate these things? I think part of it is
Speaker 1: the government can provide benefits. Let's just say you are
Speaker 1: a digital you know you're in the digital economy, right
Speaker 1: or the gig economy. You don't work for one of
Speaker 1: these big companies, you know, you may not get the
Speaker 1: benefit of paid leave, and your benefit may come from
Speaker 1: a federal benefit. So there are gonna be people who
Speaker 1: are left out by just private sector solutions. And that's
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about, and that's why it's important for
Speaker 1: the government, you know, to play a role also for
Speaker 1: us when we think about so and This didn't happen
Speaker 1: with paid leave in the way that I think we
Speaker 1: would all have wanted it to, which is, when you
Speaker 1: know Google is offering paid leave, who are they offering
Speaker 1: it to? Should they be making me sure that every
Speaker 1: single one of their suppliers and customers, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, get access to it as well? How are
Speaker 1: we making sure of that companies that have hourly employees
Speaker 1: and salaried employees offer the exact same benefits to both.
Speaker 1: And I think in this moment that's what we have
Speaker 1: to actually demand, And I think the government can actually
Speaker 1: help put the pressure on the companies to make sure
Speaker 1: that when they're providing those benefits, they're providing them to
Speaker 1: all of them, almost like an osha if you will,
Speaker 1: but for employment. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1: I think we have to. Like, the data has always
Speaker 1: been clear that that childcare in particular, like is very
Speaker 1: similar to health care. If you start providing early education
Speaker 1: to children, they live longer, right, they're healthier, it's less
Speaker 1: of a cost and attacks on society. So the data
Speaker 1: and the evidence that companies should be investing in this
Speaker 1: is there, and uh, and so now it's time for
Speaker 1: them to actually start acting on it. And I think
Speaker 1: if we didn't have this pandemic and then we didn't
Speaker 1: have the great resignation of the Great quit, companies could
Speaker 1: have been like, let the government deal with it. But now,
Speaker 1: I mean, you have Amazon increasing base salaries from a
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty to three hundred thousand dollars. Now, if
Speaker 1: those same workers leave within six or seven months, which
Speaker 1: is what the rate is now of how long people
Speaker 1: stay at companies, you're out money. But if you start
Speaker 1: providing and paying for their childcare, you're more likely to
Speaker 1: retain them, you know, for a year and a half
Speaker 1: or two years, and so you're there's a savings and
Speaker 1: so again, I think the incentives in this moment are
Speaker 1: leaning towards you know it making a lot of business
Speaker 1: sense right for you to like pay up right and
Speaker 1: start offering you know, these benefits services support to what
Speaker 1: will ultimately be to working moms. Because two out of
Speaker 1: three caretakers are women, it's business as usual in terms
Speaker 1: of what you're dealing with RUSHMA deeply entrenched attitudes that
Speaker 1: have existed for a very long time. UH, business practices
Speaker 1: that haven't been challenged. And so are you still optimistic
Speaker 1: that things can change. Because if I were you, I
Speaker 1: think I feel overwhelmed almost every day. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I I oh, I'm so fired up every day. I'm
Speaker 1: so fired up every day because I feel like we
Speaker 1: have a once in a lifetime opportunity. It's the way
Speaker 1: I felt like when I start a Girl through Code
Speaker 1: ten years ago. Like I think, if you could marry
Speaker 1: the fact that businesses have to do something with the
Speaker 1: fact that I think working women and our allies have
Speaker 1: finally seen that like this is not working, and I
Speaker 1: got something has to change and we're at our breaking point.
Speaker 1: If those two things can come together, it could be
Speaker 1: a perfect storm for that, you know, for us in
Speaker 1: a good way. And that's what I'm betting on um.
Speaker 1: And so in some ways, not passing Bill back better
Speaker 1: was kind of like this, See they really don't give
Speaker 1: a shit about us, right, and like that no one
Speaker 1: is going to save you. That we have to start
Speaker 1: demanding and asking for the things that we deserve. And
Speaker 1: see that's always it's like goes back to that's always
Speaker 1: something that we as women have had. You what I
Speaker 1: mean to do in the first place, And I do
Speaker 1: think I was I was a straight a student, went
Speaker 1: to Harvard, and Neil thought if I did everything right
Speaker 1: and had the perfect resume, that I would just get
Speaker 1: to be a CEO. They would just pull out the
Speaker 1: red carpet. It didn't matter, though. It didn't matter how
Speaker 1: smart I was, how hard I tried, how prepared I was.
Speaker 1: It was always stacked against me and all of us.
Speaker 1: And when I say me, I mean us. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about this looming uh likelihood that roe v Wade will
Speaker 1: be overturned. Um, how does that fit into the equation
Speaker 1: and and where does that put working women in general?
Speaker 1: I mean I wrote a not bet about this that
Speaker 1: that essentially this goes back. This is now the Priva
Speaker 1: Center has kind of not dealt with Roe v. Wade
Speaker 1: and reproductive rights because I think they never thought maybe
Speaker 1: the moment would come where we would be sitting here
Speaker 1: with a very weally quid chance that Roe v. Wade
Speaker 1: is going to be overturned. And so yet again now
Speaker 1: it's up to businesses because is to provide you know,
Speaker 1: basically provide abortion access to their employees. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think I wrote in the MyD like one out of
Speaker 1: three employees will have an abortion at some point, right,
Speaker 1: So this is like the vast majority, you know, of
Speaker 1: their population. So they have to think about how they're
Speaker 1: going to actually protect support, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: the right to choose. How can they do that the
Speaker 1: rushima you know, if if, if it will be okay
Speaker 1: for states to ban abortion and working women having to go,
Speaker 1: you know, get the day off and travel to another state,
Speaker 1: and many of them can't even afford abortions, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's just saying the companies need to help, Like
Speaker 1: what does that mean? And what does that they to
Speaker 1: pay for it? Like if if I'm employed and I
Speaker 1: live in Texas and that Texas is now you know,
Speaker 1: outlawed abortions, You're going to have to pay for me
Speaker 1: to get to New York City, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: my flight, my airfare, the cost of it, you know,
Speaker 1: it is now your problem. And I think that this
Speaker 1: is also the cost of when companies actually don't stand
Speaker 1: up and speak out, you know, and join the fight.
Speaker 1: I think we have to, you know, they have to
Speaker 1: basically play a role in the play a role in
Speaker 1: making sure that this right exists for women. It's such
Speaker 1: a political hot potato. I have a hard time imagining
Speaker 1: even if it should be done. Companies being like, come
Speaker 1: to us if you need an abortion, We're going to
Speaker 1: take care of it for you, and we're going to
Speaker 1: help you. Some have salesforce. I'll tell you this. When
Speaker 1: I wrote this article, I have. I am still getting
Speaker 1: emails from your g's basically being like, we had a
Speaker 1: big conversation about this, you know, at a human resources meeting,
Speaker 1: because I think they know that it's coming, and also
Speaker 1: millennials are asking them what are your policies on this?
Speaker 1: So going back to the great resignation and who's actually
Speaker 1: coming back into the workforce, it's childless women. It's the
Speaker 1: very women. I mean, actually it's not true, because the
Speaker 1: vast majority of those who have abortions are others, you know,
Speaker 1: but it is women who who care about this right
Speaker 1: and want to know your position and want to know
Speaker 1: whether you are going to actually help them pay for
Speaker 1: protecting that right because you're choosing to stay in a
Speaker 1: stay in the state, and do business with the state
Speaker 1: who has taken away my right to choose. It just
Speaker 1: is kind of amazing that we're even discussing this. Yes,
Speaker 1: I never thought we'd be discussing this as a real
Speaker 1: as like a real thing. What is the solution, Reshima,
Speaker 1: when all is said and done. You know, we've tackled
Speaker 1: so many different aspects of this problem just in this conversation.
Speaker 1: But to wrap things up, what what can we all do?
Speaker 1: And what can moms do? What can businesses do? What
Speaker 1: should the government do? How can we make things better? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the first thing you have to
Speaker 1: realize is one we've all been sold a big lie
Speaker 1: and and that's the way that we've been thinking about
Speaker 1: women's equality in the workplace. Um, it's just been wrong.
Speaker 1: And I think COVID exposed that. And so there is
Speaker 1: no express train to the corner office. You know. We
Speaker 1: have to have the support that we need from the government,
Speaker 1: you know, from our partners to thrive, not just in
Speaker 1: our careers, but like in our lives, you know. And
Speaker 1: we've got to have choices to re enter and exit
Speaker 1: the workforce without penalty. You know, we have to be
Speaker 1: able to not have to hide our motherhood and work
Speaker 1: at a place, work in a society where we're free
Speaker 1: from bias and where motherhood isn't viewed as a distraction
Speaker 1: or you know, to this uh denigrated, but it's actually
Speaker 1: lifted up and celebrated where our mental health is viewed
Speaker 1: as important as our output, right, and will we have
Speaker 1: to stop asking women to do more and start asking
Speaker 1: institutions to pay up. And in my book I talked
Speaker 1: about some real clear ways what we need from the
Speaker 1: government and what we need from our employers to actually
Speaker 1: get there, and what we need to do for ourselves.
Speaker 1: I mean to protect our mental health. Um and to
Speaker 1: stop feeling like this is our problem. We screwed up,
Speaker 1: We've made a mistake, We're not good enough, we just
Speaker 1: can't handle it. None of that is true. I have
Speaker 1: to ask you also if you'd add to the list
Speaker 1: what we need from our partners. It seems to me
Speaker 1: that this should be a discussion as important as do
Speaker 1: you want to have kids? Are you willing to share
Speaker 1: in the responsibilities that it You know that it takes
Speaker 1: to raise kids and to keep and to keep a home. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right. And and and look if I when I
Speaker 1: had that conversation with my husband, because again I'm Indian,
Speaker 1: you know, very paternalistic culture, right like, and so I
Speaker 1: was very clear that if I was going to marry
Speaker 1: an any man, and I was going to do what
Speaker 1: I wanted to do, in the world that we had
Speaker 1: to be clear on what are like, you know, what
Speaker 1: the ratio was right like? And I was I was
Speaker 1: wanted him to do sixty and me to do forty.
Speaker 1: You know, that was like my dream. But I do
Speaker 1: think that when you actually get married and you know,
Speaker 1: the things shift, and not because you didn't make the
Speaker 1: deal or didn't have the conversation, but also you know,
Speaker 1: I'll find and I write about this in my book.
Speaker 1: You know, the Hall and I have a deal where
Speaker 1: you know, he does nights and I do mornings. But
Speaker 1: if I'm sitting around, you know, at six o'clock and
Speaker 1: then I said, hey, can you warm up the bottle?
Speaker 1: We just pay gives the sigh his dinner real quick.
Speaker 1: And so even though we've had the conversation, so I
Speaker 1: got to leave the house and I walk around the block,
Speaker 1: go for a drink, maybe do my work out. Then
Speaker 1: but I'm gone and and and so there's there's no argument,
Speaker 1: and he's not like where are you right, It's just
Speaker 1: like if I'm there, I'm gonna just go get it done.
Speaker 1: So part of it is not just our partners, but
Speaker 1: are you telling ourselves? You know, as my friend Tiffany
Speaker 1: to do food says to like to drop the ball.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, to center ourselves to you know,
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, be selfish about our
Speaker 1: own self care right in in my case, you know,
Speaker 1: to leave the house. A lot of women, I think
Speaker 1: pretend like they want their partners to do more, but
Speaker 1: if their partners holding the baby, they're gonna make a
Speaker 1: bee line to the baby and say no, I'll take
Speaker 1: care of it, or you're not doing it right. I mean,
Speaker 1: I have a lot of couples who have told me
Speaker 1: stories along those lines. That's why I think it needs
Speaker 1: to start early. I think you should start teaching your
Speaker 1: seven year old how to do laundry, how to wash dishes,
Speaker 1: how to do all these things around the house so
Speaker 1: it won't be seen in his eyes as a woman's job.
Speaker 1: And similarly, I applaud companies like tied and and they're
Speaker 1: not sponsoring this podcast, by the way, but where they
Speaker 1: show a stay at home dad playing with his daughter
Speaker 1: and doing the laundry. You know, I think a lot
Speaker 1: of our ideas of what's a man's job and what's
Speaker 1: a woman's job really has to be upended. It's true.
Speaker 1: I mean, my dream is to have like you Lebron
Speaker 1: James and like you know, Snoop Dogg doing like you know,
Speaker 1: doing the laundry and the dishes, and like our entire
Speaker 1: thing about like masculinity and what it means to be
Speaker 1: a man and to be a successful man who does
Speaker 1: what you know, it was very funny to me and
Speaker 1: some of these surveys that came out during the pandemic
Speaker 1: about homeschooling that you know, women would be like, I'm
Speaker 1: the one who's doing the homeschooling and then would be like, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm the one who's doing it. But there's this real
Speaker 1: kind of perception amongst men that they are doing this work.
Speaker 1: You know, they are doing and you know, for us
Speaker 1: every time and you survey that's done across the world, it's,
Speaker 1: you know, pretty like we're doing eight six of that
Speaker 1: unpaid labor over and over and over again. I don't
Speaker 1: have time for midlife crisis. I mean yeah, but I
Speaker 1: mean it's funny. It's like you you see the reports
Speaker 1: of men during the pandemic, like I've learned how to
Speaker 1: play the guitar. I've never read more in my life.
Speaker 1: You know. It's whereas we are mental health is in
Speaker 1: the toilet. How can that be when the same surveys
Speaker 1: when you ask men and women that they're doing the
Speaker 1: exact same thing. So that's the and part of the
Speaker 1: whole conversation with your partner. It's hard to like, you know,
Speaker 1: like you can talk about it, but like you might
Speaker 1: as well saw where he still thinks he does fifty. Well,
Speaker 1: you've given a lot of people a lot of food
Speaker 1: for thought, and I really admire the energy and passion
Speaker 1: that you've used to to really immerse yourself into this issue.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like you have a lot of other
Speaker 1: people who are joining forces with you? Rushma? Do you
Speaker 1: feel alone in this battle? And something not at all?
Speaker 1: I feel like I have this massive like Mom's community
Speaker 1: on LinkedIn right of just like like you know, like
Speaker 1: people who are were talking about this and seeing it
Speaker 1: and feeling seen. And I think that that's really important.
Speaker 1: I was, you know, I think that there are a
Speaker 1: lot of leaders out there, you know, both in government
Speaker 1: and in the private sector who are passionate about this issue.
Speaker 1: You know, we've been obviously raising money because we're nonprofit.
Speaker 1: I mean, my first ten big checks were men, you know,
Speaker 1: some of them who had single moms. So I think
Speaker 1: people really get the issue. I think the thing is
Speaker 1: is that the approach that we're taking at it is fresh,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's new and it's not been done before.
Speaker 1: And I think so we're trying to figure out, like
Speaker 1: what's the right model? How do you approach this? How
Speaker 1: do you do this? I too, and we talked about
Speaker 1: this when we first started, when you first talked to
Speaker 1: me about the Marshall Plan, right when we launched it,
Speaker 1: which is like, you know this, you know, can the
Speaker 1: private sector actually really change? You know? Are they Are
Speaker 1: they able to? And and here I am again talking
Speaker 1: about private sector solutions and feeling like they can change.
Speaker 1: But there's I wouldn't feel that way if it we
Speaker 1: weren't in this moment, this exact moment again to your
Speaker 1: anniversary of COVID, Looking at the job numbers, looking at
Speaker 1: the mental health, looking at the talent wars, looking at
Speaker 1: the great resident all of it has led to a
Speaker 1: perfect storm where I think there's an opportunity for real change.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I need Mary Bara, I need Vice President Harris,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I need Melina de Gates.
Speaker 1: She's supporting her work. So we got her right, But
Speaker 1: we need women, philanthropists, women in business, women's CEOs, and
Speaker 1: just all of us moms and working women in our
Speaker 1: allies to stand up and say, all right, let's go like,
Speaker 1: let's let's change and redesign work for places. Let's finish
Speaker 1: this fight once and for all. How have you changed
Speaker 1: your workplace and the face of this because I'm thinking, gosh,
Speaker 1: I started a media company with my husband. Are we
Speaker 1: doing enough to support working moms and working dads for
Speaker 1: that matter. I mean, listen, I if you had asked
Speaker 1: me two and a half years ago whether this is
Speaker 1: what I'd be doing, I would have been like, no way, Katie.
Speaker 1: I wasn't focused on this issue. Even writing Payoff, I
Speaker 1: learned so much and I feel like I'm a well
Speaker 1: read educated woman that I just didn't know how many
Speaker 1: close misses, you know, how many, how many wrong turns,
Speaker 1: how m much of this had not been focused on
Speaker 1: in the way that we needed to in the feminist movement.
Speaker 1: I do think that there are a lot of c
Speaker 1: e o s, even females CEOs, who are not focused
Speaker 1: on this issue or have not been focused on this
Speaker 1: issue before. You know that need to be. I want
Speaker 1: people to read this book to help them re examine
Speaker 1: the way they have approached leadership, you know, as met as,
Speaker 1: as managers or as CEOs or as employees and then
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, what's the opportunity to do something different?
Speaker 1: So instead of doing a talk about, you know, how
Speaker 1: to get a mentor how to get a sponsor, let's
Speaker 1: just talk about how to create gender equality in your home.
Speaker 1: You know, like we need to have very different conversations
Speaker 1: than we've been having in the past. Reshmashni, the book
Speaker 1: is pay Up. And um, I'm I'm exhausted just listening
Speaker 1: to you. H But if if moms need an advocate,
Speaker 1: you are the perfect one. So thank you for all
Speaker 1: your hard work and thanks for for talking to us today.
Speaker 1: It's always great to see you, rush my mom. I'm
Speaker 1: always full of pride after I talked to you and
Speaker 1: and just so impressed. So thank you, Thank you, Katie,
Speaker 1: and thank you for everything that you did to elevate
Speaker 1: the voices of so many of us that are fighting.
Speaker 1: You are the original energizer Bunny. Just so you know
Speaker 1: we learned from you. Next Question with Katie Kurik is
Speaker 1: a production of My Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media.
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Me, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz.
Speaker 1: The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements
Speaker 1: and Adrianna Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by
Speaker 1: Derrek Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to
Speaker 1: sign up for my morning newsletter, Wake Up Paul, go
Speaker 1: to Katie Currek dot com. You can also find me
Speaker 1: at Katie Curic on Instagram and all my social media channels.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Heart Radio, visit the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your
Speaker 1: favorite shows. H