WEBVTT - Reshma Saujani on why there’s no better time to redesign the workplace for women 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.800 Hi, everyone, I'm Katie Current and this is next question. 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:09.319 On today's episode, women are in crisis, and I think 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:12.119 we realize that no one is coming to save us. 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:16.439 Reshma Sujani on the state of women's progress and the 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.040 impact the pandemic has had on our careers, mental health, 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:24.880 and lives. After decades of advancement in the workplace, more 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:27.520 women dropped out of the labor force over the past 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:32.160 two years than ever before. But that's why the former 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.919 Girls Who Code CEO says there's no time like the 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:39.919 present for systemic change. We were told that if we 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:42.720 leaned in hard enough, if we girl bossed our way, 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:45.839 there was an express train to the top. We have 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:49.199 just set women up to fail. And so if you 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:52.200 believe like never ways to go to crisis, like there's 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.120 never then been a moment for us to redesign the workplace, 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:59.560 then there is right now. And Rushma has a plan, 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:02.680 which she lays out in her new book called Pay Up. 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.760 The Future of Women and Work and Why It's different 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.679 than you think. We'll get to all of that and 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:13.360 more in this conversation, but first let's talk about you, Rushma, 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:16.880 because I learned some things about you that I didn't 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:21.240 quite realize. Tell us about your parents and about your 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:24.840 journey as a kid and going to law school. Just 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:29.759 give me the Rushma story and for five seconds, Okay, 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:32.280 let me make it quick. My parents came here as refugees. 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:34.840 They were two of a thousand engineers who got to 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:38.840 come here because they were kicked out by Idi aman Um. 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:41.160 My father worked as a machinist and a plant My 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:45.080 mother sold cosmetics, and I my dad would read to 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:49.520 me about these incredible people like Dr King and Mahama Gandhi, 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:51.280 and so from the time I was little, I wanted 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.040 to change the world, like as sappy as it sounds, Katie, 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:56.600 like I wanted to give back to this country that 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:00.560 saved my parents life. I graduated three, was knowledge to 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:03.520 loan bet did what every good Indian girl thinks she 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:05.760 should do, was listen to my parents and got that 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:08.280 safe job, you know, so I could get married and 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.680 have that middle class life. And I was miserable the 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:15.360 whole way because I just always wanted to run for 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:19.280 office and be a public servant. I decided to try 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:21.800 that and I ran for Congress. I basically did what 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.880 AOC did except ten years earlier. And she lost. I 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.800 mean I should say I lost, she won, um, But 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.799 it was the best experience of my life because I 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.160 failed for the very first time. And when you run 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.240 for office like you can't I that like everybody knows 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:40.799 when you lost, and I was broke, I was humiliated. 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.680 I had piste off everybody in the democratic establishment. But 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:48.320 I was free and that feeling of being like wow, 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:50.440 like what are the other things I told myself I 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.520 couldn't do, and let me go do them and let 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:56.760 me fail at them too, and it just it started 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.120 this life of just brave, not perfect, I say, starting 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:01.240 girls who code when I didn't code, and I didn't 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.000 bother to learn, you know, building a movement to teach, 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:06.360 you know, to talk about moms and say they should 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:10.360 get paid. Though I'm not an economist, and so I 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:12.720 think it's just like it freed me to say what 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:15.240 I want to say, not care what other people think, 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:18.799 and to be a warrior. Was that scary though, rush my, 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:22.920 I mean you you say it like no big whoop. 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.240 I failed and I was okay with it and it 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:28.880 was liberating at the same time. It must have been 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:33.520 as you said, it's humiliating to fail, especially on a 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.920 public stage and I something I can relate to. It 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.680 was scary well also because I was, you know, as 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:42.240 the first South Asian woman to run for office. You know, 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:44.680 my parents had taught me to like not call attention 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:48.360 to yourself, right not, you know, like basically drawn the lines. 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:50.720 And here I was going out there. I had no 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:53.440 idea what I was doing. You know, I didn't have 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:55.680 friends and fancy places. I didn't know how to hire 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.560 a campaign manager. I'd never asked anybody for a check before, 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:00.920 and so all of it was like the first time. 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:04.200 I remember even going into senior centers and like having 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:07.640 to pronounce my name and you know, and just knowing 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.280 what to say. And I didn't know what I was doing. 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:12.800 And I remember my first you were gonna appreciate this, 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:16.520 My first television interview ever was with Chris Matthews and 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.279 he was so mean to me. I didn't even know 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:20.920 like where to look in the screen. I was looking 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:25.320 in the wrong place. I mean, it was right, it 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:30.880 was about it. I'm still still I cannot watch that interview. 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:35.440 Uh so it was it was high stakes, high fear, 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:38.960 but high excitement. And I think when you do something 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:42.640 like that at age thirty, three, and you're kind of like, well, okay, 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:47.719 I can do anything. And even the public failure was 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:50.880 so interesting because I mean, I'm not it hurt, I cried. 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.320 I you drank Margarita's for like a month, being like 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:55.280 what happened? What happened? What happened when I do wrong? 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.840 And then I moved on And and that was the 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:01.800 their lesson about failure. Like you, I'm sure you can 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:04.160 appreciate this, right. You can't keep thinking about it and 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:07.160 reliving it. You gotta let it go. And I learned 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:11.000 that lesson. You know, at a young age. Girls Who 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:17.359 Code was a phenomenal success that you launched. And you 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:19.960 just said I didn't know how to code. I hadn't 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:22.920 you know, I didn't really you weren't familiar with the 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.960 tech world. Just take us back to why you wanted 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:29.320 to create Girls Who Code. Well, when I was running 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:31.840 for office, I would go into New York City schools 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:34.840 and I would go into computer science classes and I 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.760 would see like lines and lines of boys trying to 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:41.000 be the next step jobs or Mark Zuckerberg. And I 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.760 was like Gates for Bill Gates, and like, you know, 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:46.560 I knew that the valley was a boys club, But 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.600 I didn't know that that club started in high school. 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.040 And then I started learning about like what you make 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:54.560 as a software programmer A hundred and twenty thousand dollars 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:58.800 what like, and as as I've had a job since 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:02.800 I was twelve, like basking Robbins, walking dogs, like retail, 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.159 and so the idea that you could make that much 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:09.160 money and maybe even like make a difference, I was like, 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.000 why does every girl I know, like, you know, we 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:13.039 know about this? And so I made it my mission 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:15.880 to kind of make that happen. So I really approached 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:20.280 the problem from an equity perspective and from a perspective 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:22.680 of also like, wow, what if if girls had this 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:25.080 arsenal of being able to code, Like what are the 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:29.200 problems that they could solve? Cancer, climate, COVID everything? And 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:31.640 that's what got me excited about it. And here's the 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.800 other thing, you know, Katie, I wasn't a coder, so 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:37.719 I didn't know any better. I wasn't in those computer 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.719 science classes with those microaggressions. I didn't go to a 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.240 Google interview and people get asked, you know what am 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.680 I doing afterwards? Like I didn't face the sexism and 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.600 the discrimination you know, and all of the barriers. So 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:52.600 I went at it like let's go do this, Like 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:55.880 let's go build this massive pipeline and like infiltrate every 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:58.440 single tech company. And it was a little bit of 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:03.000 that nativity right that I think enabled me to build 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.760 this massive movement when we come back. Why we can't 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:10.160 just girl boss our way to the top? Reschma's action 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:25.640 plan right after this, let's talk about pay up your 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:29.679 new book and this call for action. You believe there's 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:36.280 no time like the present to rethink policies, attitudes, behaviors, etcetera, etcetera. 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:40.000 Why Because I don't think it's ever been a worse 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:43.160 time to be a woman, you know, from reproductive rights 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.520 to you know, our job losses, to our mental health. 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.680 Like we women are in crisis, and I think we 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:53.120 realized that no one is coming to save us. You know, 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:55.559 at the start of the endemic, almost twelve million women 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:58.240 were pushed out of the labor force, and when the 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:02.040 job's report came out, men had joined the labor market 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:06.200 at twenty seven times the rate of women. You know, 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:09.400 one in three women are now thinking about changing their jobs. 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.640 You know, of women say that their mental health has 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:17.840 actually declined like, we are not okay, and this isn't 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:21.120 just a pandemic story. We've always been juggling too much. 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:23.440 And so if you believe like never wats to go 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.360 a crisis, like there's never then been a moment for 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:29.400 us to redesign the workplace, then there is right now. 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.240 Tell me about the twelve million because I keep hearing 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.959 three point five million women have left the workforce. Can 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:40.520 you help me understand the difference and those numbers. So 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:43.440 at the beginning of the pandemic, you know, from March 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:48.280 of you saw almost twelve million women leave, and then 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:51.200 women would come back and then you know, basically I 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:53.800 would say a couple of you know, at the beginning 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:56.640 of the fall, we were still missing three million women, 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:59.240 and I think the latest numbers say we're missing one 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:03.120 point one million. But here's the thing, Katie. The women 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:07.000 that have not come back our moms. So a lot 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:11.560 of childless women are re entering, but parents are not. 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:14.520 And so part of what you know, I was just 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:18.880 talking to um the Secretary of Commerces team right now 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:21.000 and this I was saying, I'm like, we need a 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:24.360 women's jobs are because there's so many numbers being thrown about, 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:28.720 But we need to exactly understand who's re entering and 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.800 if they're not re entering, what do they need? Is 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:34.520 it because of childcare? Is it because their job has 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.120 been automated, you know? Is it because their schools are 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:39.760 shut down or their kids are in crisis? Are they 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:43.480 down shifting? You know? But the the interesting thing is 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:46.520 is we know that more women are leaving, you know, 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:49.080 even in the great more women are quitting, and we 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:51.319 know some of the reasons why they're quitting. And you 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:55.240 then the thing that keeps coming up is childcare. And 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:59.840 you say, this problem predates the pandemics. So what is 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:02.960 the root of it? Why does it suck to be 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:06.720 a working mom in America? Well? I think part of 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:08.520 it is because we've been sold what I call the 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:11.240 big Lie. You know, we were we were told that 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.960 if we leaned in hard enough, if we girl bossed 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.520 our way, you know, there was an express train to 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.439 the top. And you understand this as a mother, we 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:22.400 have never been able to balance being the type of 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:24.960 mom we wanted to be with the type of worker 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.160 that we are expected to be. And so we have 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:31.240 just set women up to fail. And if you even 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.640 look at historically, you know, from Rosie the riverter right 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:37.320 to the Girl Boss today, it's like we were always 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:41.040 expected to hide our motherhood and to do it all, 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:43.679 and to you know, basically have it all was just 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.520 a euphanism for doing it all. And so I think 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:50.280 we need to expose the big lie and again redesign 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:54.559 workplaces so they actually are, you know, essentially are the 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:59.120 reality of how we live and work as moms. The 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:03.120 US has the artist drop and marital happiness after kids 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:07.240 and the world. Can you unpack that for us? Rushima, 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:11.200 and you talk very honestly about your own situation and 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:14.960 the frustrations you experienced. Steven, though you have a really 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:19.040 good marriage. Yeah, I mean I was dying to have kids. 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:21.160 I had more rounds of I v F than I 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:25.560 could actually count. All I wanted to be was a mom. 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.360 And again I think because I bought into the big line, 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.600 I didn't realize how hard it was going to be 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.480 being a mom and running girls who code. And I 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:37.640 think part of what what drove my husband and I 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:41.080 into couples counseling was, you know, I took all my 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.439 paid leave off and he didn't. And so those first 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:46.760 couple of months while I'm breastfeeding, I was the one 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:49.880 doing the laundry and doing the shopping and figuring out 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.320 whether the diaper bad was packed. Like my to do 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:57.600 list got bigger in his got smaller, and we did 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.640 become that household where I was doing eight six percent 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:03.720 of the domestic labor, all the while maintaining my big job. 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:08.040 And he had hits and so, and I didn't understand 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.360 it because I thought that, like everywhere I looked on 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:14.719 Instagram or social media, it seemed like you could have right, 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:19.680 these perfectly equitable marriages, And so why was it mine? 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.760 What was wrong with me? What had I not trained 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:26.640 my partner, you know, good enough? And then COVID made 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:28.840 it worse because I think what a lot of us 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.439 told ourselves, Well, they just don't know how much we do. 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:35.240 But now they saw us in between running the largest 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:38.880 women and girls organization in the world, doing the laundry, 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:43.400 doing the dishes, doing the homeschooling. Right, it wasn't that 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:47.600 they didn't know, but that it didn't matter because part 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.319 of the problem had always been that that work, that 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:54.200 domestic work, has never been valued, and so it hasn't 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:58.040 been prioritized for them. So they didn't do it. In fact, 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:01.600 Melinda Gates rights that him and do an average of 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:06.719 seven more years of work if you account for everything 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:10.520 they're doing inside the home in terms of taking care 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:14.160 of things that you just mentioned in terms of raising kids. 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:16.800 I mean, couldn't you just have a heart to heart 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.120 with your husband and say, listen, honey, this is not 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.720 working for me. And if you don't start, you know, 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:25.640 pulling your weight, this isn't happening. That's what I would 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:30.400 have done. Well, I think that's I think I did, 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.400 and I think we have. I mean, look, look, I'm 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:34.680 outing him in a book, right, So it's like, you know, 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.800 he's definitely his to do list past gotten bigger. But 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:40.280 the point is still, Katie, right, why is that our 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:44.760 that becomes our problem to fix? I got another job 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:46.880 and I gotta fix my partner. And part of what 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.640 in writing this book, you know, what I'm excited to 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.160 talk about, is that it is not just a personal problem. 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.559 Society has set it up that way for men not 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:58.800 to do the character taking. Think about the paid leave, 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.800 and we're gonna talk about solutions later. But so many companies, 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:05.280 including Apple, still don't have gender neutral pay lead policies. 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.920 So they corporations, companies are not setting up relationships to 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.680 start and have a fighting chance at gender equality. You know, 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.160 it's not until fairly recently that even if you think 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:20.360 about the images you see on television and in magazines, right, 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:23.760 it's like we praise then you know, when they are 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:26.960 strolling down a baby down the streeter changing a diaper 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.520 as if it's you know, exceptional. You know, I can 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:31.360 I can post that, you know, I walk my son 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.160 to school, and I'm not getting five hundred likes. So 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.280 so again, like we just have to really shift essentially 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:40.560 who does the character taking, whether that work is actually valued, 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.040 and have a really honest conversation if we're going to 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:45.360 get to gender quality. It's not about just getting a 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:49.520 sponsor or a mentor or even figuring out pay equity. 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.400 It's about how do you shift the balance of work 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:57.320 in every single household. I mean, even the debate that 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:01.280 we're having in Congress around the child tax credit is insane, 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.440 right that, like Joe Manchin says, well, you shouldn't get 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.320 a child tax unless you're working, As if the work 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:12.160 that I do every single day at home it's not work. 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.520 Explain that for us, for people who may not be 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:19.640 following the legislation, what the tax child credit would do, 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:24.960 and why it is problematic if it's only for working moms. Yeah, 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:29.040 So for a long time, we we in the United States, 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:31.800 you know, we have been against giving a child tax 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:35.480 credit to parents who are not in the workforce. And 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:39.320 in COVID President Biden changed that and said essentially, any 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:41.680 parent of a certain income you know what I mean, 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:46.000 gets uh, you know, thirty a month, right, you know, 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:49.600 if they have a child, and it is set to expire. 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.440 And there's a big debate in Congress about whether we 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:56.480 should extend it. And Senator Mansion has been against extending 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:59.040 it because he thinks that you should only get it 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.240 if you're a parent in the workplace. And so what 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:04.440 he's saying is that you should only get it if 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:06.840 you are a parent that is working, and that if 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:09.680 you're not working, you're not entitled to a benefit. And 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.480 why this is deeply problematic is the United I means, 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.280 it's a very it's not the typical perspective that you 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.640 see in other nations like the United Kingdom for example, 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:22.000 or you know, the Nordic countries, where in the UK 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:25.640 you got a parental income every month if you had 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.040 a kid, and so because it is very expensive to 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:33.320 be a parent. But in this country, we see deciding 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:36.840 to be a parent as a choice. It's your personal 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:40.640 problem that you have to solve. Not the government, not 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:44.920 your employer, not even your partner is obligated to help 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.600 or support you. And young women are looking at that 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.760 saying not me, I don't want to do it. There 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.880 are a lot of problems that are exacerbated Reshma by 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:59.320 that attitude. I mean where does that Where does that 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:03.640 leave us as a country? Yeah? I mean one it 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.920 leaves us of I think, never getting to gender quality 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.879 unless we start investing in in these types of policies, 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:15.080 whether it's the government or whether it's you know, um 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.840 companies like let's take childcare for example. It is very 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:21.800 clear by the data that the that the million women 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.440 that are not entering the workforce re entering or who 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:28.679 have downshifted, right because we're not talking about that either, um, 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:32.200 it's because childcare is not affordable. We still have half 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.320 of our daycare centers that are shut down. I think 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:36.919 they say childcare costs have gone up by you know, 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:41.520 for you know, during the pandemic, and so you know, 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.639 if we do not solve childcare, you'll never get women 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.119 to return to the workforce in the same place that 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.800 they have been historically in the past, which means we're 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.240 gonna lose out in the diversity, you know, and by 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:55.800 extension in you know, the innovation of our country and 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:59.800 the long term economics success of our nation is actually 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.480 going in to suffer. And so right now in government, 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.919 you know, President Biden have proposed that we have a 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.119 seven percent ceiling on the amount that you'll spend on 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:11.440 your childcare. You know, that bill is not being passed 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:15.480 in Congress right now, and so you have rising childcare costs, 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.040 no intervention by the government. And so one of the 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:19.960 things I argue in the book is that we've got 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:24.119 to start asking companies to start subsidizing childcare. You know, 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:28.160 right now less than companies subsidized childcare. But as we're 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.640 having a race to the bottom in terms of salaries 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.880 and we're in the middle of the talent war, one 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:36.919 of the things I think that companies should be considering 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:40.280 is starting to pay for childcare as a way to 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:44.720 retain and attract talent. Don't you think on the one hand, 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.320 the pandemic made things terrible. On the other we have 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:52.960 some additional forces that seem to be encouraging people to 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.639 make a change. We have work at home policies. It 0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:01.280 seems like employers are having to be more flexible. As 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:05.280 you said, there's a worker shortage. Aren't all these things 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:09.639 going to push companies in the right direction? Reschma. I 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:11.600 mean it's interesting, like my books coming out at the 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:15.920 two year anniversary of the pandemic, and I have not 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:20.719 seen as many policy changes from companies as I would like. 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.040 You know, they're still offering like free museum tickets and 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:27.000 egg freezing, but they're not paying for my childcare. They're 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:29.679 not incentivizing men to take pay leave and tying it 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:35.000 to their compensation. There's still resisting flexibility and remote working. 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:39.600 So I do think that while one would think, right 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.440 if you were a CEO today, I mean certainly as 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.080 a CEO right, that this is the time to start 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:51.119 maybe redesigning and rethinking about how we've traditionally done things. 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:53.320 I think the knee jerk reaction is to go back 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.840 to where it was before, and part of that is 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.520 because I think that the folks who need the most 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:04.879 amount of redesign are working moms, and we are the 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:10.080 most tired you're having, uh you know, constituency group that 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:14.399 is exhausted, higher race of mental anxiety and depression, you know, 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.040 and and and at the same time, we're the ones 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.520 who need the change. And so this is also why, 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.439 which is very fascinating, Katie, that the that women are 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.480 quitting it at a much higher rates than men. So 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:28.680 I'd rather quit my job and say, hey, know what, 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:31.240 I need flexibility, you know what I mean, I need 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.440 support here or there, because we're so used to this 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.320 being told to us is our personal problem, that you 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:39.800 don't get to ask for support. That we're still breastfeeding 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.600 in closets, you know what I mean, and hiding pictures 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.240 of our kids and lying about going to our kids 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:48.480 soccer game or doctor's appointments because we're supposed to hide 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.159 our mother and we're not crazy for doing that. That 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:53.760 is what we have been taught that the way to succeed, 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:57.280 the way to get the corner office is to basically 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:00.560 pretend you not a mom. Are any company is doing 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.520 it right, doing it well. That can be held up 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:07.520 as a model for others to say, hey, you know, 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:11.879 you're not going to sacrifice productivity or the bottom line. 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:16.960 In fact, you may increase it if you're more accommodating 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:20.640 to working moms. And you know, ps, I think you're 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.600 not going to get gender equality if they're not more 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:28.800 accommodating to working dads. Yes, there are. You know, Walmart 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:33.320 had introduced something, uh, basically for salary workers. A lot 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.760 of salary workers want flexibility, but if you're an hourly worker, 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:39.720 what you want is predictability. You work in retail, Walmart, 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:42.520 you got the seven pm shift, you arrange for childcare, 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:44.760 You show up for your seven pm shift, and guess what, 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:48.280 It's been canceled. Now you're out money. So what Walmart 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.800 had done is basically designed an app that allows employees 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:54.760 essentially switch shifts with one another and so that they 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:58.720 can get more predictability over their schedule. Simple. Everybody should 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:02.160 be doing this. Petigo only has always been doing incredible 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:05.399 things in terms of their paid leave benefits. You know 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:08.720 a handful of companies like Google, like Disney, you know, 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:12.080 have offered on site care. So I do think that 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:14.640 there are companies. You know, Google just announced that they've 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:17.760 increased the amount of paid leave in sick days that 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:21.159 they're offering for their you know, employees, and so I 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:25.000 think that there are companies that have been innovative and 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:28.680 have been pushing this issue, but we definitely definitely need more. 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:31.159