1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Hi, this is newt Twenty twenty is going to be 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: one of the most extraordinary election years of our lifetime. 3 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: I want to invite you to join my Inner Circle 4 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: as we discuss each twist and turn in the race 5 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: and my members only Inner Circle Club. You will receive 6 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: special flash briefings, online events, and members only audio reports 7 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: from me and my team. Here's a special offer to 8 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: my podcast listeners. 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First. 16 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: On this episode of Its World for Father's Day, will 17 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: be celebrating with a discussion about our nation's founding fathers. 18 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: I'm pleased to welcome as my guest today, Joseph j Ellis. 19 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: Ellis Is won the nation's leading scholars of American history. 20 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: The author of nine books, Ellis was awarded the Pulitzer 21 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: Prize for Founding Brothers the Revolutionary Generation, and won the 22 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: National Book Award for American Sphinx, A biography of Thomas Jefferson. 23 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: His in depth chronicle of the life of our first President, 24 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 1: His Excellency George Washington, was a New York Times bestseller. 25 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: John I have known each other for many years, were 26 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 1: both historians, and both have a deep regard for George 27 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: Washington and a great love for Mount Vernon. In fact, 28 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: we had lunched together in Mount Vernon just over a 29 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: year ago. I'm pleased to welcome him as my guest. 30 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: I don't know anybody who has studied the key figures 31 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 1: of the American Revolution and the founding of America from 32 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: as many different angles as doctor ellis what got you 33 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: personally into focusing on this period. I got to Yale 34 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: and it got me interested in the eighteenth century, and 35 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: worked with Ed Morgan, who was giant in the field. 36 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: And I realized at some point in time that all 37 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: these editions of the papers of the founders Washington, Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, 38 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: and that the profession was going off in a different direction. 39 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: The profession was going off in the social history direction 40 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: towards Native Americans, African Americans women. There wasn't really anybody 41 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: making use of this record that was being created. This 42 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: is the greatest record of a political elite ever compiled 43 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: in recorded history. So it was available, and I dove 44 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: into it, and so I've been scribbling away, I guess 45 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: ever since. How do you explain this moment in time 46 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 1: where somehow these people came together and collectively were so 47 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: capable of developing a system that is still here over 48 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: two hundred years later. It's a wonderful question. Alfred Lord 49 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: North Whitehead, the great British philosopher and Witz, said that 50 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: there were only two occasions in Western history when the 51 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: political elite of emerging an empire behaved about as well 52 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: as one could ever expect. One was Rome under Caesar Augustus, 53 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:46,119 Speaker 1: and the other was America under the Founders and most 54 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: especially Washington. One of the questions I used to ask 55 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: students is I would say that the population of Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania, 56 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: right now is about the same as the white population 57 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: of Virginia was in seventeen seventy six. Now we go 58 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: down the street in Wilkes Barre, do you think we're 59 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: going to find George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Marshall. 60 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: Do you think we'll find those people? And the answer 61 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: is probably not. And so it's an indirect way of 62 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: posing the same question you're opposing Newt, How does this happen? 63 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: In one generation? It is the greatest collection. I mean, 64 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: I think, you know, the greatest generation in some senses 65 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: of World War two generation. They're talking about all the 66 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: citizenry at that time and the people who served in 67 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: the war. My father was in that group. But in 68 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: terms of political leadership, this is, beyond question, the most 69 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: creative and the most consequential generation in American history. Coming 70 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: at the start was a huge advantage for them because 71 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: they got to create the foundation. But how did this happen? 72 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: And if there hadn't been a revolution? Washington would have 73 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: been a country squire in northern Virginia. If he got 74 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: into the British Army and he'd applied and they rejected 75 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: him at one time, he would have most made major. 76 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: Adams would have been a country lawyer. Hamilton, who literally 77 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: was a bastard. God knows what would have happened to him. 78 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: So that they were all made by the revolution. Revolution 79 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 1: created talent. It called out energy that would otherwise not 80 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: have been able to express itself. Part of the reason 81 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: was that the American colonies were open to talent in 82 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: a way that say, Britain and France and most of 83 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: Europe was not. That is, it's unimaginable that a guy 84 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: like Hamilton would emerge as he did. He wouldn't have 85 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: been allowed to have dinner party yet in London. So 86 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: that it's open to talent. There's a high literacy rate 87 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: in the colonies. In New England it's over ninety percent, 88 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: and as a result, there's like one hundred and fifty 89 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: eight newspapers at the time of the revolution. There's a 90 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: communication network set up, especially when the crisis with Britain 91 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: begins to become serious and threatens to become a war. 92 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: And it's marvelous to see the movement from top to 93 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: down and then back again. Some people say it's an 94 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: elite movement, some people say it's a popular movement. The 95 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: thing that makes it magic is it's both. It's an 96 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: elite communicating ideas to people below and people below coming 97 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: back with answers. And that's the basis of what becomes 98 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: a republic. I'll tell you a story that Washington is 99 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: walking out of Mount Vernon in May of seventeen seventy 100 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: five to go to the Continental Congress, and Lexington conquered. 101 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 1: It happened in April. He's got Billy Lee is trusted 102 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: manservant with him and is the guy that's going to 103 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: run Mount Vernon. Will is gone Lund, Washington as second cousin, 104 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: is coming out there, and he says to when the 105 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: British come up the Potomac, the burn Mount Vernon them, 106 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: make sure you get out my books and Martha presumably 107 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: not in that order. And he presumed by going to 108 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: the Continental Congress that he was going to lose everything. 109 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: He was committing treason. And then later Lund writes him 110 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: and says, there was a British frigate that came up 111 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: the Potomac, and I sent out a little skiff with 112 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: fruit and food to appease him. And Washington robeck and said, 113 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: I am extraordinarily upset with what you just told me. 114 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: You have damaged my honor. You have attempted to appease 115 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: the enemy. If it happens again, let them burn it 116 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: to the ground so that the crisis they're facing is 117 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: an all or nothing crisis. There's no middle position. Washington 118 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: was incredibly tough psychologically that he was prepared to live 119 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: out the gamble of his life even if it meant 120 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: he lost. At the time that he is deciding that 121 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: the majority in the Continental Congress was in favor of 122 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: some form of reconciliation. They didn't want to go to 123 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: war with Great Britain, the most powerful military force in 124 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: the world, the British Army and Navy together, he was 125 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: taking at a frontal position on this. They were saying, 126 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: we don't want there to be a war, and he said, 127 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: we already had it. Remember there's a fifteen month separation 128 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: between Lexington and Conquered and then the declaration of Independence, 129 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: and right in there early on is Bunker Hill, the 130 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: bloodiest battle of the war. So that there's this long 131 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: period from seventy five to the summer of seventy six 132 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: when most of the colonists are trying to find a 133 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,959 Speaker 1: way to avoid going to war, and Washington is saying 134 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: it's not possible, it's going to happen. Adams is saying 135 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 1: the same thing at the political level in the Congress, 136 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: that this is a cancer that can only be cut out, 137 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: and there's no way to cure it. They're ahead of 138 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: everybody else, and they turn out to be right. They're 139 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 1: all in. So if you're running for office now, you know, Okay, 140 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: you're going to have to put a lot of energy 141 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: and maybe spend a lot of money and do a 142 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: lot of hard work and all that stuff. But you're 143 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: not investing yourself in the full way that that generation 144 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 1: was forced to do. What are they drawing on inside 145 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: themselves that allows them to behave like this. At the 146 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: end of the war, Washington writes his last circular letter 147 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: to the States, and he says that we had two 148 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: great advantages that led us to victory in the war 149 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: and will lead us to greatness as a nation. One 150 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: is this crisis developed in the aftermath of a broadening 151 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: of knowledge that will soon be called he didn't use 152 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: this word, the enlightenment. We've come to understand how government 153 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: works in a different way than the medieval people did, 154 00:09:55,679 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: and we had the ideas and the architectural form for 155 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: government available, and all we have to do is put 156 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: it into practice. Not easy, but and secondly, we have 157 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: a continent that's separated from Europe by a vast ocean 158 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: of three thousand miles and perhaps the most furland on 159 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: the planet. This is our trust punt of them, and 160 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: nobody's ever had this before. Now he doesn't mention there's 161 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: you know, there's a million Native Americans looking out there. 162 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: He knows about that. He wants to try to find 163 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: a just a way to deal with the Native Americans. 164 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: He fails in that regard. You've got natural talent that 165 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: can come forward that would be blocked in other European countries. 166 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: It's posed to aristocratic, but it's pre democratic. That is, 167 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: they don't think they're setting up a democracy. They think 168 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: they're setting up a republic res publica things of the 169 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 1: public or public of things. Democracy is still an epithet, 170 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: means mob rule, so that they are an elite based 171 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: on merit rather than wealth of bloodlines. Natural aristocracy, at 172 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: Jefferson calls it. But they don't have to pretend that 173 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: the people are always right. They don't think that people 174 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: are going to be always right most of the time. 175 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 1: Adams especially in that regard, so that they have natural 176 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: advantages intellectually and geographically. They have a mentality that is 177 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: located in an interim position that it takes the full 178 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: advantage of the aristocratic side and the democratic side without 179 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: the liabilities of each. Will you raise this interesting question. 180 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: You have people like Sam Adams and John Adams coming 181 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: down from Boston. You've got Franklin right there in Philadelphia 182 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: already a famous person and a unique person his own right. 183 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: You have the Virginians coming up. I mean, these are 184 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: very different people from very different economies, in very different cultures, 185 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: who don't actually know each other when this starts. They don't. 186 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: You're making a very important point here. There is no 187 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: sense of nationalism at the start of the revolution or 188 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: even at the end. These are distinctive regions that ordinary 189 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: American doesn't travel further the eighteen miles from the place 190 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: he lives. Allegiances are local and at best regional. They 191 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: don't think that a government can represent them that's far away. 192 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: And so the coming together in a union to defeat 193 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: the British is important. But once we defeat them, we 194 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: assume we're going to go back to our own Bailey Wicks. 195 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,599 Speaker 1: And that's what happens under the so called articles of 196 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: the Confederation. What happens in seventeen eighty seven with the 197 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: Constitutional Convention. You can see it either as a culmination 198 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: of the revolution or a repudiation of the revolution. The 199 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: anti federal saw it repudiation because and this is why 200 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: Lincoln's first line in the Gettysburg Address is historically incorrect. 201 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: Four scored and seven years ago are far there's bought 202 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: forth in this continent a new nation. No, they didn't. 203 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: They brought together a confederation of sovereign states provisionally united 204 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: to win the war and then go their separate ways. 205 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: There's two foundings. One when we win the war. One way, 206 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: we become a separate and independent nation, the first large 207 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 1: scale republican modern history. That's what makes it a political revolution. 208 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: Even when Washington is elected president after the Constitution, we're 209 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: still not a nation. One of the reasons he keeps 210 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: trying to put the creation of a national university in 211 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: the Farewell Address and Hamilton keeps taking it out. Hamilton 212 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: is drafting this thing, by the way, because he wants 213 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: her to be a place where Americans come together and 214 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: intermarry and to get them And because it's what one 215 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: historian called a roof without walls, where a nation constitutionally 216 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: but not in terms of real feelings and sentiments, and 217 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: it takes a long time. We create the framework for 218 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: a nation before we're really a nation. Well, isn't that 219 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: also part of the rise of Washington And the major 220 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: fighting is in Massachusetts. They need a Virginian to go 221 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: up there as a symbol of the nation. But Washington 222 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: is wandering around the Cardinal Congress wearing his Virginia Militia uniform, 223 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: the only person in the Cardinal Congress who actually has 224 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: a military uniform, while assuring everybody he actually doesn't want 225 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: to go and be the general. You're absolutely right. He's 226 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: wearing this uniform and some people think that means he's 227 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: campaigning for the position. It's really he doesn't have another 228 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: suit of clothes to wear that really fits him anymore. 229 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: John Adams is one who nominates him. And you're right, 230 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: they need a Virginia. Virginia is the biggest colony in 231 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: population and in size. Remember that that time, Virginia is 232 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: what is now Virginia, West Virginia, and Kentucky. And they 233 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: also have land claims all the way out to the 234 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: Mississippi in the Northwest Territory, so Virginia is huge. Washington 235 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: was always chosen whenever men gathered in a room, because 236 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: he was the tallest man by far. The people at 237 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: Mount Vernon say six two. I think he's sixty three 238 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: in a quarter, which is what they measured him for 239 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: when nay, when his body was laid out to be 240 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: put in the coffin, and he was sixty three in 241 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: a quarter and two hundred and two pounds. But the 242 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: Mount Vernon people have done these elaborate studies that say 243 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: I'm wrong because they've bent his toes when they measured 244 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: him for the coffin. I don't know, but he's big. 245 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: The average height of a male at that time is 246 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: seven five eight. He was sixty two or sixty three 247 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: in a quarter, depending on who you listened to. He 248 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: was reputedly the best horseman in the colonies, which for 249 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: a guy that size is quite an achievement. Governor Bird 250 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: when they were in session in Williamsburg for the legislature 251 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: in the evenings, they would all go down to the 252 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: taverns and Bird would bet people a shilling that Washington 253 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: could take a walnut between his thumb and his first 254 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: finger and break it. But apparently routinely Washington would do that. 255 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: People were just stunned because it's now anybody listening to 256 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: us can go try. It is virtually impossible for a 257 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: normal person. That's a good story. I had forgotten that story. 258 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: That's a less well known story than the one I 259 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: called when I was on the book trail for a 260 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: book chat trail for Washington. The book I wrote on 261 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: called His Excellency. People wanted to know what he looked 262 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: like when he was a young man, because all the 263 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: portraits of him are from later. The first partry we 264 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: have is Charles Wilson Peel in the seventeen seventies, late seventies, 265 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: and then the famous Gilbert Stuart portraits. And the Stuart 266 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: portraits are iconic. That's not what he really looked like, 267 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: even as an old man. When Stewart was painting him, 268 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: he wrote a letter to his son saying he was 269 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: looking at Washington's features and Washington looked like the wildest 270 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: animal in the forest. That's what he said. But he 271 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: didn't paint that because he didn't paint what he saw. 272 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: He painted what he knew. You wanted to see what 273 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: did he look like? Saint John Wayne nineteen thirty nine 274 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: in Stagecoach. That's what he looked like he was like 275 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: an Olympic athlete and just physically impressive. Washington is to 276 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: me the single most impressive of these founders, because there 277 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 1: were two foundings. One we declare and went independence in 278 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: the war, and the other one we create a nation 279 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: and he becomes the first president, and Washington is the 280 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: central figure in both. Without Washington, it's difficult to imagine 281 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: how it could have happened. He was the indispensable man. 282 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: In France, they get an indispensable man, but he turns 283 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: out to be Napoleon. Then Russie he turns out to 284 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: be and QB turns out to be Castro. In Latin 285 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: American turns out to be Bolivar. But that Washington is 286 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: the one guy who could have become dictated for life. 287 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 1: But he is an officionado of exits. He knows his 288 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: own power will increase if he steps away from power. 289 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: We're talking about Washington and about his willingness to have 290 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: Mount Vernon burned if necessary. At the same time, he's 291 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: losing ultimately as the war ends, he's losing people like 292 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: Fairfaxes who who Brilli Ben friends for his whole lifetime. 293 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about this the depth 294 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: of this split between the people who were firmly committed 295 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: to revolution against the British government and the people who 296 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: deeply in the South, in particular, I think bitterly fought 297 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: on the side of the British. Well. Washington reached a 298 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: conclusion sometime between seventy four and seventy six that the 299 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: conflict with Great Britain was not going to be resolved peacefully, 300 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: and that it would probably mean a war, and he 301 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: knew which side he was going to be on when 302 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: that happened. The Congress was divided at the time the 303 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: Continental Congress, and the majority were people seeking reconciliation. In Virginia, 304 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: most of the wealthiest Planners were themselves committed to not independence, 305 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: but resistance against the British. So it's a mixed situation, 306 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,479 Speaker 1: as you suggest. The Fairfax family, whom he's very close to, 307 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: eventually decides to return to London, and to some extent, 308 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: Sally Fairfax, who in some biographer's opinion, was the love 309 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 1: of Washington's life when he was a very young man, 310 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: leaves and they never each other again. Washington is singular 311 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 1: for very early on recognizing that this thing was not 312 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: going to end peacefully and while everybody else is trying 313 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: to make up their mind. And there's certainly strong pockets 314 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: of loyalism down in the Carolinas, especially in the western 315 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: regions of the Carolinas, and in the Middle colonies in 316 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: New Jersey and Pennsylvania. What distinguishes him is he makes 317 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: up his mind early on and never turns back. He's 318 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: coexisting in a world until the summer of seventy six 319 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 1: is fundamentally undecided. But even when the world decides, there's 320 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: still substantial minority. But on the other team, if you 321 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,479 Speaker 1: will and you are helping the British, you're right in 322 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: this sense that at the end of the war, when 323 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: the roles of the British and American army were made public, 324 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,239 Speaker 1: there were more American serving in the British Army they 325 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 1: were serving in the Continental Army, so that it is 326 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: a kind of civil war. What's distinctive is that in 327 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: each of the local regions, the patriot side seizes control 328 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: of the government and of the policing of the region 329 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: by militia, and it essentially drives out the loyalists. There 330 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: are totally five hundred thousand loyalists that leave the country 331 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 1: over the course of the war. So it's a substantial population. 332 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: But every time the British take a town or a 333 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: city like Boston, New York, Philadelphia, when they leave, the 334 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: loyalists have to leave with them because if they stay, 335 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: they're going to be persecuted, if not killed. So that 336 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: on the one hand, it's a divided population. On the 337 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: other hand, the American side controls the power in each 338 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: of these regions, and that if you end up deciding 339 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: that you're neutral, you're not allowed to do that. They're 340 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: going to stigmatize you, and they're not going to let 341 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 1: you go to church, they're not going to let you 342 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: go to dances, they're not going to let you buy food, 343 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: and you have to make up your mind. So that 344 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we win the revolution is 345 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: that the countryside is controlled primarily by the American side, 346 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: except for certain pockets Mohawk Valley, Western Carolinas. A lot 347 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,479 Speaker 1: of people, I would say a majority of Americans just 348 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: wish this whole war would end so they can get 349 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: on with their lives. What makes Washington distinctive is he's 350 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: there from the beginning. He makes up his mind and 351 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: he never changes it. Why is it that almost spontaneously 352 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: in every region, it is the Americans who are better mobilized, 353 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: more militant, and more capable of imposing their will. That's 354 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: an interesting question that historians have raised, and you have 355 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: to look in each local place and to see how 356 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: it's working. And it's the same story in most places 357 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: that the Americans control the press. They control of the press. 358 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: Every colony requires every able body American between the ages 359 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: of sixteen and sixty to serve in the militia. The militia, 360 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: especially in New England, are super organized and can outnumber anybody, 361 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: and that the British can come in and take over. 362 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: But when they leave, and they eventually have to leave 363 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: because they just don't have enough men to occupy the 364 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: entire country, the American resistance takes over again and they 365 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: punish people, sometimes severely, who have sided with the British, 366 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: so that the population comes to realize that it has 367 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,719 Speaker 1: to make a choice, and the Americans control the political situation. 368 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: Every particular colony remains under the control of an American legislature. 369 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: If you're a brit like you're the governor appointed governor, 370 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 1: you have to flee, and they all flee to the 371 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: coast and to British ships off the coast. Why that is, 372 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: and your question is why has that happened remains a 373 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: difficult question to resolve. In the American colonies, resistance was dominated, 374 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: It had the energy, it had the leadership, and it 375 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: never lost control of the countryside. One of the things 376 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: I wanted to explore with you is this whole notion 377 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: that they have two really huge historical moments. One is 378 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: winning independence and the other is winning the creation of 379 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: a constitutional republic. In both of those periods, the key 380 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: players somehow managed to submerge their disagreements and their personalities 381 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: in the pursuit of these very very big goals. And 382 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: it's only after they've succeeded with the second one that 383 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: you begin to have the really deep bitter falling out, 384 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: for example, between Jefferson and Adams. But who had somehow 385 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: managed to submerge all this for twenty years to your 386 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: description is accurate. I've written the book on this called 387 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: The Courtet washed Ington, Hamilton, Madison, and John Jay are 388 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: the people who essentially create a coup d'tah from above 389 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: to force a calling of the Constitutional Convention. That's because 390 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: for most of the Americans the creation of a powerful 391 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: central government is a repudiation of the values I thought 392 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: they were fighting forward in seventy six. We don't want 393 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: a nation state. We want sovereignty to reside in the states, 394 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: and this to be a confederation in which the states 395 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: come together in this place. That's the culmination of the revolution, 396 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: but it's one in which the anti federalists supposed the 397 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: federalists because they really think that this is a repudiation 398 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: of what they were originally fighting for. Washington is the 399 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: leader here again. He becomes president of the Constitutional Convention 400 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: and is known. Everybody knows he's going to be the 401 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: first president. They would have never been able to reach 402 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: any agreement about executive power are in the debates in 403 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: the summer of seventeen eighty seven if they didn't know 404 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: that Washington was going to be the first president, because 405 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 1: they knew they could trust him with power, because he 406 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: was demonstrated he was prepared to surrender it. But that 407 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: they're different moments seventy six and eighty seven. One is 408 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: top down and bottom up. The other is very much 409 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: top down. I think if you took a popular vote 410 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: among the total citizenry of the United States and that 411 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: there's four million people, but only about eight hundred thousand 412 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: people who could vote who were adult males with property. 413 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: I don't think it would have passed in seventeen eighty seven. 414 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: It wasn't a popular vote. And then the split that 415 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: you can see in the convention becomes important and the 416 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: creation of the political parties led by Jefferson and Madison 417 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: on one side and Hamilton and Adams on the other. 418 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: But in that process, even though the people who in 419 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: Philadelphia are the elite of the American Revolution, they still 420 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: have this instinct today to go back to each individual 421 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: state and get their work ratified. That it would not 422 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,479 Speaker 1: have legitimacy if they didn't have at least some mechanism 423 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: by which people could consent to move to this new model. 424 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: That's right, But I think that distance made a difference then. 425 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: I mean, we didn't have cell phones, etc. Etc. And 426 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: that most Americans in the late eighteenth century they didn't 427 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: think about themselves as Americans. They thought about themselves as 428 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: Virginians or as New Englanders. And so the notion that 429 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: there was this central government that should have their allegiance 430 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: was something that took time. In some sense, the Constitution 431 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: is what some one historian called a roof without walls, 432 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: meaning we created a national government before we were a nation. 433 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: So Patrick Henry, for example, in the ratifying convention in Virginia, says, well, 434 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: what is this supposed The new government we're talking about 435 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: passes a tax and we don't like it. We're being 436 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: taxed without our consent in Virginia. Or suppose you order 437 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: us to send our militia to some whar far away 438 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: as they will later on and send them to Canada, 439 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: and were of eighteen twelve, we don't recognize that power. 440 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: At the ground level, a lot of Americans are still 441 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 1: thinking very much not as Americans, but as people with 442 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: regional or state as most state based identities. It's not 443 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: until you get into the toke Villian here it seems 444 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: to me, thirty years into the nineteenth century that the 445 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: word American becomes a positive thing instead of a negative thing. 446 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: Let me come back. The first four US presidents didn't 447 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: view the presidency is the great achievement of their career. 448 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: So in the early stages, there's somebody like Adams or Jefferson, 449 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: or for that matter, Madison becomes president. That is such 450 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: a distant office that for most Americans because they don't 451 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: carry with them the historic weight of the guy who 452 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: won the war. The first four presidents of the United 453 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: States were Washington, Adams, Jefferson, and Madison. None of them 454 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: thought that being president was the capstoner of their careers 455 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: or the great achievement. They thought of it as an epilogue. 456 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: And Washington thought his great achievement was winning the war. 457 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: Adams thought his greatest achievement was leading the Continental Congress 458 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: to the question of independence in seventy five seventy six. 459 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: Madison thought his greatest achievement was the Constitutional Convention. Jefferson, 460 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: I mean he thought his greatest achievement was writing the Declaration. 461 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: I think that that both Jefferson and Madison think that 462 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: their job as president is to limit government power. They're 463 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: the first presidents to come to office saying our job 464 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: is not to expand federal power, but to limit it's 465 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: in Jefferson's case. Now, I tell people that I'm happy 466 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: to be a Jeffersonian Conservative. I won't do any more 467 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: than sending the Marines to North Africa without congressional approval 468 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: or buying half the continent. Jefferson. It takes some of 469 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: the most dramatic executive actions of any president in American history. 470 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: I would think that the Louisiana purchase, even more than 471 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: Truman's decision to drop the bomb, is the most consequential 472 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: executive decision in American presidential history, because he gets half 473 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: a continent and he basically says, I know this violates 474 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: my principles, but it's too wonderful an opportunity to miss, 475 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: and I hope posterity will forgive me for the violation 476 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: of my principles. Here. You can be a principal thinker, 477 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: but when you're put into power and you're confronted with 478 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: certain situations, whether it's the Tripoli pirates or Napoleon's willingness 479 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: to sell a Louisiana territory, you become a pragmatist. Look 480 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: back and you think, how would history have judged him 481 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: if you'd written a letter back saying it's a nice offer, 482 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: but you know, I have this commitment to not doing 483 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: anything like this, so maybe you need to find somebody 484 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: else to buy it. I mean, people would think he 485 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: was crazy. Well, he was worried about how possibly would 486 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: judge his use of power, successive or not. There was 487 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: a certain form of manifest destiny, even present in the 488 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: late eighteenth century, even what the term didn't existent. I mean, 489 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: think about them, the Continental the Continental Army, the Continental Congress. 490 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: The very language suggests that there was this implicit presumption 491 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: that we're destined to occupy the continent, and that the 492 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: Treaty of Paris gives us everything east of the Mississippi, 493 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: south of candidates the north of Florida's There is this assumption, 494 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: it's unspoken, that destiny does drive into the control of 495 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: all that land out there well. And then at the 496 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: same time, it seems to me, you know, if you 497 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: go back and you look off from Washington's first assignment 498 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: as a young man to go west to what is 499 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: now Pittsburgh, and Washington is always looking for land in 500 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: the west. He's thinking about cleaning up the Potomac River 501 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: so that you can have shipping to the west. He 502 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: sees the Potomac as the gateway to the west. They 503 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: all think that God wouldn't have created a continent without 504 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: providing river system that connects it. Of course, that there 505 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: is no such thing. And there are some biographers of 506 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: Washington and some historians at the period who, following a 507 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: kind of Charles Beard interpretation of the economic factors that 508 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: drive men. You could document that Washington really is quite 509 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: interested in accumulating in the west and seeing that as 510 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: the basis of his fortune. Ironically, he receives the equivalent 511 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: of about sixty thousand acres because of his service with 512 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: the British in the French and Indian War, and he 513 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: knows that that land will become valuable to the extent 514 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: that the population moves west and begins to occupy that area. 515 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,239 Speaker 1: I don't agree with the notion that that sort of 516 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: one dimensional interpretation of Washington explains him. It's a factor, 517 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: but there are political and morally theological reasons that are 518 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,239 Speaker 1: driving Washington to become a patriot, and he's not just 519 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: doing it for his own economic self interest. You mentioned 520 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: earlier that how much of the Virginia landed aristocracy ended 521 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: up being in favor of independence. Almost all of them 522 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: had bad relations with creditors in London. You're absolutely right, 523 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: so did Washington. When Washington was thinking of the face 524 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: of the British Empire, it wasn't George the Third. It 525 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,959 Speaker 1: was this guy, Robert Carey, who was his agent in London, 526 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,719 Speaker 1: who was purchasing his tobacco and he thinks cheating him 527 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: out of his livelihood. The entire Virginia Planner class was 528 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: in debt to British and sky Oddish creditors to the 529 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: tune of three or four million dollars, which is real 530 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: money in today's terms, so that their motives for siding 531 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: with independence were at least to a great extent economic. 532 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: They just wanted to finesse the whole debt thing. In 533 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: the previous paris they're required to pay, but it's according 534 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: to the treaty they're required to pay their debtors, but 535 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,240 Speaker 1: the issue will be left to the States to decide 536 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: how to do it, which means it's never going to happen. 537 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: So yes, Washington and the Virginia Planner class is economically 538 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: committed to independence for reasons that are very self interested. 539 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: These are very proud people who have this sense that 540 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 1: their London contacts look down on them. So there's both 541 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: an economic and a sort of psychological resistance. Washington was 542 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: an extraordinarily proud man, and he applies for membership in 543 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: the British Army and they reject him. But Washington's response 544 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: to the rejection isn't to feel that he's been condescended 545 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: to so much is that they have made a mistake. 546 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: They don't understand. The British look to the Americans much 547 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: in the way they look to the Scots and the 548 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: Irish semi barbarians. The Americans are not like that in 549 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: the sense that they feel that they have an integrity 550 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:29,959 Speaker 1: and sophistication this imperial presumption that the British bring with them. 551 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 1: Franklin gets tried in the Privy Council and humiliated. And 552 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 1: here is one of the greatest geniuses of the age, 553 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: and everybody knows that, I mean the equivalent of a 554 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: novel prize winning scientist, the greatest prose writer in the 555 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: English speaking world, and they humiliate him. British presumptions of 556 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: superiority are at the root of a great many Americans 557 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: decision to go the other way. Somebody wrote a brilliant 558 00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: study of the campaign in Massachusetts and made the point 559 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: that the British army had been very good in Wales 560 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: and Scotland and Ireland because they had been able to 561 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: sort of disperse the local levies without a great deal 562 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: of effort, and all of a sudden now they're facing 563 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: organized militia who have been drilling and who are quite 564 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,280 Speaker 1: prepared to stand and fight, and that it's an enormous 565 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: shock to go stumbling back to Boston, taking casualties the 566 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: entire away, because it wasn't how it was supposed to 567 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: occur in terms of the British arrogant approach to dealing 568 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: with colonials. You're describing Lexington and conquered in April of 569 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 1: seventy five, But even before that happens, General Gage, who's 570 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: the commander of the British forces in Boston, and he's 571 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: the most experienced British officer in America. He's been there 572 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: for twenty five or thirty years. He's married to a 573 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: wealthy American woman. Initially he tells George that they're easily subdued, 574 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: these people. He gets some recognition that he's really wrong here. 575 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 1: After the passage of the Corrosive Acts in seventy four, 576 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,760 Speaker 1: the militia really becomes powerful and there is a false 577 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: alarm that the British are bombarding the people in Boston, 578 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: and the militia rally. Now get this, one hundred thousand 579 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: are coming from Western Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Connecticut, 580 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 1: and they all head towards Boston, one hundred thousand. They're 581 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 1: just overwhelmed in numbers, and those people are organized. Later 582 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: on that year, they send Colonel Leslie with the troop 583 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: to Salem to occupy an arsenal to take the munitions away. 584 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: And so he's got a group of like a hundred 585 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: British soldiers. He gets to the bridge and all of 586 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 1: a sudden, four thousand militias show up and surround him, 587 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: and he says, I have orders to cross this bridge 588 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 1: and take the arsenal in and the American militia command says, 589 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: we will let you cross the bridge if you then 590 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: turn around and walk back again, and if you don't 591 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: do that, we will kill every one of you. So 592 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: Leslie walks across the bridge that are at about the 593 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 1: base and then walks through these four thousand guys back 594 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 1: to Boston. They're outnumbered. They didn't expect that, and if 595 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 1: they had internalized that lesson early on, they would have 596 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: avoided the war, because in some sense it's a hopeless 597 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: situation for the British army because they are attempting to 598 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 1: subdue a people who are numerous and armed. New England 599 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: is the epitome of that, but it's true throughout much 600 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: of the rest of the colonies too. But you know, 601 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 1: at the same time, Washington does not rely on a 602 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: leve on moss to try to drown him. Washington has 603 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: an instinct for order and for structure, So he wants 604 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: a countervailing continent army. I mean, he accepts a smaller 605 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: force that can be disciplined. Throughout the war, Washington is 606 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: in a position of pleading with the Congress to sort 607 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:05,479 Speaker 1: of support him in creating this professional army. And it's 608 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 1: resisted throughout the war by the Congress because they don't 609 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: want to create a standing army. And so that the 610 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: level of support for the continental army, which almost dies 611 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: and Valley forged, two thousand guys die and that winter, 612 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 1: and so what Washington says, look, the only way for 613 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: us to win the war is to have an army 614 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,840 Speaker 1: powerful enough to destroy the British, he thinks, and their 615 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: demographic reasons. Why he's right that if you give me 616 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,840 Speaker 1: what you can, I can have an army of eighty thousand. 617 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: We can defeat them in a year. He never gets that. 618 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: He never gets more than twelve to fifteen thousand and 619 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,320 Speaker 1: he says, Look, I understand you're worried about a professional army, 620 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: but that if we don't have an army that can 621 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,760 Speaker 1: sustain itself and defeat the British, then all these thoughts 622 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: are irrelevant because we're going to go out of existence 623 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: as an independent country. It's ironic. By the time the 624 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:08,240 Speaker 1: war's over in seventeen eighty one, after Yorktown, the American 625 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,919 Speaker 1: Army has become a professional army. It's hit and miss, 626 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: it's improvisational, it's you know, develop officers. You find people 627 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: like Nathaniel Green, like Alexander Hamilton, like Henry Knox. These 628 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 1: are people that are just discovered and you build it 629 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: over time. But the time when it can meet the 630 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: British one equal terms, it isn't time when it no 631 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: longer has too anymore. Just to branch out from the one, 632 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,920 Speaker 1: you do get these moments when the Malitias show up 633 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: in huge numbers. I mean, I think of Saratoga and 634 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 1: in some parts of the Southern Campaign where suddenly the 635 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: British are just surrounded, I mean they can't move. That's right. 636 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 1: Whenever the British Army goes inland, it's at risk. Throughout 637 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 1: the war. When they go inland and they don't have 638 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: the support of the British Navy, they're at risk of 639 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 1: being outnumbered, and that is what certainly what happens at Saratoga, 640 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: in the entire of Burgoyne is seven thousand troops is captured. 641 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 1: That's a real turning point in the war too, because 642 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: it brings to French in One of the terms that 643 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,919 Speaker 1: starts to get used by the Americans is burgoined. We're 644 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,359 Speaker 1: going to burgoin them. But it's also true that in 645 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: many conventional battles in the New York campaign, in the 646 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: Brandy Line in Germantown, the militia who are assigned to 647 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: assist the continent enlarming simply run away. They're not effective 648 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: troops in many of the conventional battles. In Washington believes 649 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: you can't rely on them. On the other hand, in 650 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 1: those situations like Saratoga where they rally from Western mass 651 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: from New Hampshire, so that they just simply outnumber and 652 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,359 Speaker 1: double the size of the British Army, then they're decisive. 653 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: The guy that knows how to use militia more than 654 00:41:55,840 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: anybody else is an American infantry leader called Morgan when 655 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: you look at all the material that's been gathered at 656 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: Yale and you just sort of let it all kind 657 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: of sort out in your head whether things that particularly 658 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 1: surprised you as you looked at the source documents. You mean, 659 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: on the prominent founders now just done explaining the revolutionary 660 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,319 Speaker 1: era and the rise of America. The thing that most 661 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 1: surprised me, I've mentioned it in passing earlier, is that 662 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: the historiographic debate that's been going on for virtually one 663 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 1: hundred years is if you have to take sides, to 664 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,360 Speaker 1: what extent should we see the American warfare, independence and 665 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: the revolution and in general as a top down, elite thing, 666 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,359 Speaker 1: or to what extent was a bottom up thing, And 667 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: that what surprised me is the obvious truth is both 668 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 1: things are true, and that we shouldn't be arguing between 669 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 1: ourselves about whether Jefferson and Madison and these prominent founders 670 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,759 Speaker 1: are most important or people at the local level who 671 00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: really doing the great deal of the work and supporting 672 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,719 Speaker 1: the revolution. What makes the American Revolution so distinctive is 673 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: that this communication system, it's almost before electricity. It's almost 674 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,000 Speaker 1: this electrical connection between the top and the bottom. The 675 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 1: word democracy is still an epithet in the late eighteenth century. 676 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: It means mob rule, but there's an inherently democratic feature 677 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: to it, and an inherently elite is featured to it. 678 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,919 Speaker 1: And what makes it distinctive is that the combination. It's 679 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,720 Speaker 1: a post aristocratic phase but a predemocratic phase that enjoys 680 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,399 Speaker 1: the energy of both traditions. That's the thing that most 681 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: surprised me. But isn't that in a sense precisely what 682 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: the Roman Republic at its peak would have argued was 683 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: the magic that you had to have a mechanism which 684 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:50,240 Speaker 1: bound together the top and the bottom, while recognizing that 685 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: there might be an elite making the decisions, but they 686 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,759 Speaker 1: had to always be aware of where their strength and 687 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,320 Speaker 1: their power Automolye came from. Gibbons first of all, of 688 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: the Decline and Fall the Roman Empire, which is published 689 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 1: in seventeen seventy six, actually calls attention to that very fact. 690 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,399 Speaker 1: And here's a guy Gibbon who's sitting in the House 691 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,360 Speaker 1: of Commons and watching the debate about the future of 692 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: the British Empire and doesn't do much. He sits as 693 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: a backbencher. The British could have learned a great deal 694 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 1: from the Roman Empire. Augustus becomes a great emperor because 695 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: he recognizes he can't try to control what is now 696 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: Britain or even France, and they needs to give local 697 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,920 Speaker 1: control to those folks. In some ways, I think that 698 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,759 Speaker 1: while Gibbon doesn't bring his insights to the British situation, 699 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: in some sense his recognition of the mistakes the British 700 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 1: are making is what informs his discussion of Rome under 701 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: Augustus defunding. Fathers were relatively conscious of the theory of 702 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: the Roman Republic, and I think they also go back 703 00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,279 Speaker 1: to earlier point about a standing army. I think they 704 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 1: also had deeply shaken by Cromwell in the English Civil War, 705 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: and that had imprinted deeply on the Whig tradition that 706 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 1: you simply couldn't have a strong army because that would 707 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: lead to a dictatorship. And I think there was genuine 708 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,239 Speaker 1: fear the Washington might be the new Cromwell, which is 709 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: why his giving up power is so vitally important in 710 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,439 Speaker 1: Maryland at the end of the war, because it's reassures people, oh, 711 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 1: he's not Cromwell. He's not going to use his fame 712 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 1: in his military power to be a dictator. But I 713 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 1: think this whole fear of Cromwell is really driven deep 714 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,640 Speaker 1: into the American psyche. Washington, in some ways, the greatest 715 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,359 Speaker 1: thing he ever did was surrender power. That's what makes 716 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:47,840 Speaker 1: him an exceptional and truly irreplaceable figure in the American story. 717 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,719 Speaker 1: If you don't have a Washington in the story in 718 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: the lightighteenth century, I don't think it turns out the 719 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,720 Speaker 1: same way. When he heard what Washington had done, George 720 00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: the Third said, if that is true, he would be 721 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 1: the greatest man of the century. That's correct. There's an 722 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 1: artist that Benjamin West who's painting his picture. He's an 723 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:08,200 Speaker 1: American artist. West says to George the third. By the way, 724 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,839 Speaker 1: the word is that Washington has refused the crown, and 725 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,960 Speaker 1: that's exactly what George the Third then said, Yes, if 726 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 1: it's true, he will be the greatest man in the world. 727 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,280 Speaker 1: Washington steps down after the second term, right, he retires again. 728 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: And then when the election of eighteen hundred occurs, Adams 729 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:30,680 Speaker 1: is defeated and Jefferson is elected, in a fundamental transferral 730 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: of power. In any other country in the world, that 731 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:38,000 Speaker 1: would have produced chaos, But they accept the result of 732 00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,880 Speaker 1: the election, the first peaceful transition of power in a 733 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,880 Speaker 1: republic in the modern era. There is a different attitude 734 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,280 Speaker 1: in the United States that gets established at the founding. 735 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,959 Speaker 1: We've never had a moment in American history to date 736 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,640 Speaker 1: in which someone has defied an election result and insisted 737 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,600 Speaker 1: on retaining office. Parallel to that, weren't there some people 738 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 1: who sort of wished Washington would have become not just 739 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,279 Speaker 1: not dictator, but king because they were just comfortable with 740 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: the king as leader. I think that the antique monarchy 741 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,360 Speaker 1: ethos was so potent in the United States that anybody 742 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,800 Speaker 1: who had tried to assume that level of dictatorial power 743 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 1: would have eventually been drown out and probably killed. That's 744 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,400 Speaker 1: what Adam said later on when people asked him when 745 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:29,840 Speaker 1: he was an old man, what would have happened to 746 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,120 Speaker 1: Washington tried to and he said, we would have gotten 747 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,560 Speaker 1: rid of him. So, when there was a sense, which 748 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 1: I guess is part of the radicalism of the declation independence, 749 00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:44,239 Speaker 1: that they are breaking with the whole concept of the 750 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,239 Speaker 1: divine right of government, that's what makes it a revolution, 751 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,200 Speaker 1: and they really meant it, man, I think that's what 752 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,040 Speaker 1: what you're saying is fould have said to Washington, remember 753 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,919 Speaker 1: that document we signed. It is both an ideological revolution 754 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,880 Speaker 1: and a movement from a divine right a top down 755 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 1: government to a bottom up republican form of government. But 756 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:09,799 Speaker 1: it's also something that has roots in the colonial experience 757 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:14,720 Speaker 1: that nothing in Europe can quite match. Next, Joe Ellis 758 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,120 Speaker 1: explains what surprised him most in his research about the 759 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 1: Founding Fathers. If you took the five or six key players, 760 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,960 Speaker 1: do you have a favorite anecdote about each one that 761 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,720 Speaker 1: you think sort of illustrates their personality or the essence 762 00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,399 Speaker 1: of their being. Franklin is the wisest of them all. 763 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:54,000 Speaker 1: He's the grandfather amongst the fathers. Read the pamphlet he 764 00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,520 Speaker 1: wrote just before he left England to come back to America, 765 00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 1: The Rules by which a Great Empire may be reduced 766 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,360 Speaker 1: to a small one, which is a kind of marvelous 767 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:07,520 Speaker 1: parody on what the British are doing, a wit combination 768 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:13,720 Speaker 1: of Einstein and Mark Twain. Jefferson is the most intellectually sophisticated, 769 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 1: I think in terms of the range of his thinking. 770 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,880 Speaker 1: The thing that leaps into my mind at this moment 771 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,080 Speaker 1: is the letter he writes in eighteen sixteen, when being 772 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,239 Speaker 1: asked by or Fello Virginia about how his generation will 773 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 1: be remembered and how they'll be canonized in the future, 774 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 1: he says, we all want to be remembered, but we 775 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:35,399 Speaker 1: don't want to be canonized. You're on your own. Each 776 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,279 Speaker 1: generation is on its own, and if you try to 777 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,520 Speaker 1: imitate us down to the letter, it will be as 778 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: if an old man tries to put on the code 779 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,239 Speaker 1: he's wearing as a young boy. Adams, in some ways 780 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,680 Speaker 1: is one of my favorites because he tells you most 781 00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,360 Speaker 1: about what he's feeling as well as what he's thinking. 782 00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,600 Speaker 1: Quotation I might have used earlier with you is that 783 00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,520 Speaker 1: if I can never be shown that there is no 784 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,760 Speaker 1: life after death, advice to every man, woman, and child 785 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,799 Speaker 1: on the planet is to take opium. Madison is the 786 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:11,480 Speaker 1: most politically astute or politically agile. He's not as quotable, 787 00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,400 Speaker 1: but I guess the sentence about him is if God 788 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,600 Speaker 1: were in the details, Madison would be there to greet 789 00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:23,239 Speaker 1: him upon arrival. Hamilton is the brightest, the smartest. He 790 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,839 Speaker 1: would have gotten the highest grade on the LSATs. He's 791 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,799 Speaker 1: also the most dangerous, in the sense that he did 792 00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:36,920 Speaker 1: have monarchical tendencies, dictatorial tendencies. That his quote that is 793 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:39,440 Speaker 1: reflective of what he really believes. He said, the people. 794 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,600 Speaker 1: People always kept talking about the people. The people, Sir 795 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,479 Speaker 1: is a great beast is of that side, and those 796 00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,440 Speaker 1: are the things that come to mind. This has been wonderful. 797 00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,279 Speaker 1: I really want to thank you for a great conversation 798 00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,759 Speaker 1: about our founding fathers on Father's Day. Thanks for having 799 00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:07,480 Speaker 1: me new Thank you to my guests Joe Ellis. You 800 00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,160 Speaker 1: can read more about the founding Fathers we talked about today, 801 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,359 Speaker 1: including a link to all of Ellis's books, on our 802 00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,880 Speaker 1: show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by 803 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:22,719 Speaker 1: Westwood One. Our executive producer is Debbie Myers and our 804 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:27,400 Speaker 1: producer is Garnsey Slope. Our editor is Robert Barowski, and 805 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:31,920 Speaker 1: our researcher is Rachel Peterson. Our guest booker is Grace Stevens. 806 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,640 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 807 00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:40,279 Speaker 1: The music was composed by Joey Selvey. Special thanks the 808 00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:44,359 Speaker 1: team at Gingwichwood sixty and Westwood One's John Wardock, Tim 809 00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:49,320 Speaker 1: Sabian and Robert Mathers. Please email me with your comments 810 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:53,320 Speaker 1: at newt at newtsworld dot com. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 811 00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,399 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 812 00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,520 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 813 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,120 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. I'm new Gangridge. 814 00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:12,240 Speaker 1: This is news World, the Westwood One podcast Network