WEBVTT - #595 Jason Flom with Kristine Bunch 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.540 What you're about to hear is an update to an 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:08.180 episode we recorded with Christine Bunch in 2020. Christine spent 0:00:08.180 --> 0:00:11.370 17 long, miserable years in prison after she was wrongfully 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:15.070 convicted of setting a fire that killed her three-year-old son, Anthony. 0:00:15.090 --> 0:00:19.330 A conviction that was based on junk fire science and 0:00:19.530 --> 0:00:24.790 evidence that was later shown to be both false and misleading. Now, 0:00:25.170 --> 0:00:30.820 since getting out, Christine has... Well, she's turned tragedy into triumph. 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.940 She's devoted her life to making sure that other innocent 0:00:34.979 --> 0:00:38.339 people don't suffer the same way that she did. She's 0:00:38.620 --> 0:00:42.269 been advocating for compensation for exonerees. She's helped to train 0:00:42.330 --> 0:00:46.390 law enforcement. She's supported people coming home from prison. And 0:00:46.430 --> 0:00:51.370 she's worked alongside innocence organizations across the country. And now 0:00:51.870 --> 0:00:56.220 she's taking that work even further. Earlier this year, Christine 0:00:56.260 --> 0:00:59.540 became the first ever director of the Indiana Innocence Project, 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.100 an organization that she actually helped create. That's right. The 0:01:03.180 --> 0:01:07.200 same woman who once had to fight for almost two 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:10.679 decades to convince the justice system of her own actual 0:01:10.830 --> 0:01:15.869 innocence is now leading an organization dedicated to finding innocent 0:01:15.890 --> 0:01:20.210 people still behind bars, bringing them home, and helping them 0:01:20.470 --> 0:01:24.430 to rebuild their lives. A true hero's journey. And now, 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:34.890 Here's my conversation with Christine Bunch. Welcome back to Wrongful 0:01:34.930 --> 0:01:36.190 Conviction with Jason Flom. 0:01:36.209 --> 0:01:38.630 That's me, of course. And today you're going to hear 0:01:38.690 --> 0:01:42.450 a story that's as heartbreaking and tragic as it was preventable. 0:01:42.970 --> 0:01:46.340 And it's a remarkable look inside the systemic flaws as 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:50.140 well as human errors that lead to wrongful convictions. And 0:01:50.420 --> 0:01:53.740 in this particular case, we're going to be telling the 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:57.700 story and hearing the story of one of my absolute 0:01:57.860 --> 0:02:00.900 favorite human beings, a personal hero of mine who is 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:05.020 doing amazing, amazing things in the world right now, today 0:02:05.220 --> 0:02:08.440 and every day. And so I am thrilled and honored 0:02:09.139 --> 0:02:12.390 to have with us on the show today, Christine Bunch. 0:02:12.790 --> 0:02:14.329 Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. 0:02:14.690 --> 0:02:17.770 And with Christine is someone whose name you'll probably recognize, 0:02:17.850 --> 0:02:18.750 Ron Safer. 0:02:18.770 --> 0:02:19.049 Ron Safer. 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:23.900 Is a former U.S. attorney turned corporate lawyer turned justice fighter. 0:02:24.060 --> 0:02:27.560 And you'll recognize him because he was a huge part 0:02:27.690 --> 0:02:31.530 of the exoneration of Julie Ray, an episode that I'll 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:33.890 never forget. And I hope if you haven't heard it, 0:02:33.910 --> 0:02:36.370 that you'll go back and take a listen. Anyway, Ron, 0:02:36.830 --> 0:02:37.570 welcome back. 0:02:38.230 --> 0:02:40.110 My pleasure to be here. Thank you, Jason. 0:02:40.570 --> 0:02:43.570 So let's get right into it. Christine, you grew up 0:02:43.690 --> 0:02:44.769 in Indiana, right? 0:02:45.150 --> 0:02:45.510 I did. 0:02:46.190 --> 0:02:50.220 Things took a crazy turn when my parents divorced. But 0:02:50.260 --> 0:02:53.019 for the most part, I was happy and it was good. 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:58.350 Now, at the time of this unimaginable tragedy, you were 0:02:59.290 --> 0:03:02.790 just a young mother living in a trailer, working hard, 0:03:02.830 --> 0:03:06.389 going to school, just starting your life. Just 21 years old, right? 0:03:06.710 --> 0:03:07.369 That's correct. 0:03:07.570 --> 0:03:10.720 I was working and going to school and I had 0:03:10.750 --> 0:03:12.720 a beautiful three-year-old son named Tony. 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:16.919 And then the worst nightmare that any parent can possibly 0:03:16.980 --> 0:03:20.260 have or wake up to In a cold sweat, and 0:03:20.419 --> 0:03:22.300 some of us probably have had that experience, but it 0:03:22.460 --> 0:03:26.340 actually happened to you. And Ron, can you tell us 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:30.210 about that awful morning of June 30th, 1995? 0:03:30.210 --> 0:03:35.230 What happened was Christine and Tony had gone to sleep 0:03:35.450 --> 0:03:39.090 together on a couch in the living room area of 0:03:39.170 --> 0:03:44.420 the trailer. Before Christine woke up, Tony had moved to 0:03:44.460 --> 0:03:47.100 the front room, which was a separate room from the 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:55.860 living room. Christina awoke to a sound and a small fire. 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:02.940 She was disoriented, but she saw the small fire and 0:04:03.310 --> 0:04:06.810 she tried to put it out with a pillow and 0:04:06.950 --> 0:04:11.310 couldn't do that. So she tried to smother the fire 0:04:11.410 --> 0:04:16.890 with a blanket and that didn't work either. Carbon monoxide 0:04:16.910 --> 0:04:24.270 is by this carbon monoxide. She's trying to put out 0:04:24.310 --> 0:04:29.950 the fire. She can't find the fire extinguisher. She knows 0:04:30.050 --> 0:04:33.370 where the fire extinguisher is. She can't find it. So 0:04:33.470 --> 0:04:38.030 by that time, the fire had grown into a wall 0:04:38.290 --> 0:04:41.120 between her and Tony, and she could not get to him. 0:04:41.770 --> 0:04:45.080 So she frantically went out of the trailer, tried to 0:04:45.100 --> 0:04:48.840 get help, and then tried to break the window into 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.359 the front room so that she could get to Tony. 0:04:52.150 --> 0:04:56.130 But it was too late and Tony had perished. 0:04:57.790 --> 0:05:01.630 It's impossible to even conceive of the horror and the 0:05:01.690 --> 0:05:04.310 panic in a time like that, even if you didn't 0:05:04.370 --> 0:05:08.030 have kids, like waking up to a fire. Christine, what 0:05:08.070 --> 0:05:12.250 are your memories of that awful night now 25 years ago? 0:05:13.500 --> 0:05:15.339 I think the thing that sits with me the most 0:05:15.460 --> 0:05:17.520 is it was just normal. 0:05:18.180 --> 0:05:21.940 I came home from school and I got Tony from 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.040 the babysitter and we went home and we cooked and 0:05:26.620 --> 0:05:29.320 I think we, you know, watched some TV and did 0:05:29.339 --> 0:05:32.220 some laundry and we fell asleep. I'd read him a 0:05:32.260 --> 0:05:35.580 story and he wasn't feeling really well. And we fell 0:05:35.620 --> 0:05:39.599 asleep on the couch under the air conditioner and everything 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:44.490 just seemed normal. You didn't realize that you were going 0:05:44.510 --> 0:05:47.890 to wake up and your whole world would be turned 0:05:47.950 --> 0:05:48.510 upside down. 0:05:49.380 --> 0:05:54.669 Yeah, I mean, your whole world was really destroyed at 0:05:54.710 --> 0:05:59.229 a time when the community and the system should have 0:05:59.270 --> 0:06:04.390 been coming to help you in every conceivable way. Instead, 0:06:05.230 --> 0:06:09.380 you were exposed to and victimized by the worst that 0:06:09.460 --> 0:06:11.980 the system and our society has to offer. And it's 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:16.600 so important that you're here now because this arson... quote 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.540 unquote science that they used in order to frame you 0:06:19.740 --> 0:06:23.760 and wrongfully convict you for a crime that never even 0:06:24.060 --> 0:06:27.140 happened is something that we need to focus on because 0:06:27.260 --> 0:06:31.600 we need awareness among everyone. Because someday you, the listener, 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:34.479 may find yourself on a jury and you may be 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.600 presented with this same sort of junk science. 0:06:38.180 --> 0:06:45.370 So fire investigation was an apprentice art. There were what 0:06:45.490 --> 0:06:50.690 was regarded as common knowledge and industry standards that were 0:06:50.730 --> 0:06:56.809 passed down from generation to generation. Virtually none of those 0:06:57.089 --> 0:07:03.300 conventional wisdom were true. And when tested by scientific principles, 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:09.020 they were all debunked. Unfortunately, that came too late for Christine. 0:07:09.870 --> 0:07:13.880 And this starts with a fire investigator named Brian Frank. 0:07:14.130 --> 0:07:17.980 So what Frank did was the day of this fire, 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:23.400 and keep in mind, this trailer was completely incinerated. He 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:28.160 comes into the trailer and just plucks things out of 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:34.260 thin air. He says, oh, this... This is a burn 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:39.740 pattern on the floor. That's evidence of a liquid accelerant 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:45.310 like gasoline. Ooh, there's a V pattern on the wall. 0:07:45.790 --> 0:07:50.850 That is, fire burns up in a V pattern. And therefore, 0:07:51.430 --> 0:07:55.230 because there are two of these, there were two points 0:07:55.450 --> 0:08:00.380 of origin. A normal accidental fire will have one point 0:08:00.420 --> 0:08:04.160 of origin. Sometimes, if a fire is intentionally set, it 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.930 will have two points of origin. It says, oops, here, 0:08:07.940 --> 0:08:13.450 the fire burned down. That is a sign of a 0:08:13.490 --> 0:08:17.990 liquid accelerant. For all of these reasons, I conclude this 0:08:18.090 --> 0:08:23.250 was not an accidental fire. This was intentionally set because, 0:08:23.430 --> 0:08:27.170 as you said at the beginning, Jason, unlike many crimes 0:08:27.610 --> 0:08:32.260 like a robbery or a fraud or a murder, The 0:08:32.380 --> 0:08:36.440 question in an arson is, was a crime even committed? 0:08:36.900 --> 0:08:41.920 And upon that threshold question rests the lives of hundreds 0:08:41.980 --> 0:08:44.280 of people, including Christine. 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:49.689 Here's what's absolutely nuts, is that to become a licensed 0:08:50.130 --> 0:08:53.910 arson investigator, one who can testify in court, you can 0:08:54.010 --> 0:08:59.989 take a 40-hour correspondence course. It takes 1,500 hours in 0:09:00.050 --> 0:09:03.349 some places to become a manicurist. You can't get a 0:09:03.450 --> 0:09:06.910 barber's license in less than six months. The idea that 0:09:06.950 --> 0:09:10.850 they've been relying on these charlatans. You'd be better off 0:09:10.910 --> 0:09:15.090 consulting with psychics or even just guessing. And in Christine's case, 0:09:15.290 --> 0:09:18.560 there are so many other problems, right? There's tunnel vision, 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:24.000 withholding of exculpatory evidence. There's multiple incompetent investigators who pass 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.860 themselves off as experts. And then it goes downhill from there. 0:09:28.340 --> 0:09:31.700 So there you are outside the house and in minutes, 0:09:31.780 --> 0:09:35.400 in moments, your life has gone from a good life 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:40.160 full of love and hope to the worst imaginable scenario. 0:09:40.860 --> 0:09:44.540 You're just in shock and you don't really believe what 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:48.070 people are telling you because they kept telling me, no, 0:09:48.540 --> 0:09:51.589 you can't go in and no, we couldn't get him. 0:09:51.370 --> 0:09:56.070 And no, he's not alive. And of course, as a parent, 0:09:56.110 --> 0:09:59.970 you don't want to believe that. People. 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:02.460 On the outside want to look at it and say, well, 0:10:02.620 --> 0:10:05.680 if this was done differently or if you had acted 0:10:05.700 --> 0:10:12.690 this way. And I mean, for myself, I have played 0:10:12.730 --> 0:10:15.469 it over and over and over and over again in 0:10:15.530 --> 0:10:18.580 my mind. I still, every day that I wake up, 0:10:19.290 --> 0:10:22.890 play it over in my mind. And I don't know 0:10:22.929 --> 0:10:25.070 how to come up with a different scenario. 0:10:27.010 --> 0:10:28.069 When you're in that. 0:10:27.929 --> 0:10:33.839 Moment and the terror paralyzes you, you don't know what 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.200 you would do. So it's easy to stand outside and say, 0:10:37.580 --> 0:10:38.839 this should have never happened. 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:41.100 And somebody has to be blamed. 0:10:42.620 --> 0:10:46.720 Right. Because the alternative is incomprehensible to most people. Why 0:10:46.740 --> 0:10:52.510 an innocent baby would be taken and Christine, six days 0:10:52.950 --> 0:10:58.459 in hell, right? Six days for you between the fire 0:10:59.010 --> 0:11:00.940 and the loss of your child and the time that 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:03.320 you're arrested. What were those six days like? What were 0:11:03.340 --> 0:11:03.840 you doing? 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:09.540 I went with my parents to plan a funeral. 0:11:11.610 --> 0:11:15.730 And my mom and dad really went through how the 0:11:15.770 --> 0:11:16.630 service was going to be. 0:11:17.900 --> 0:11:20.340 And I just remember sitting there and crying. 0:11:20.780 --> 0:11:23.820 And then I told him that I wanted a song played, 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:29.579 something that I, you know, sang with Tony. And he said, 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:30.860 we can play whatever you want. 0:11:32.780 --> 0:11:35.530 And then I had to go get clothes to wear 0:11:35.590 --> 0:11:39.189 to a funeral. At that time, I was still walking 0:11:39.210 --> 0:11:44.309 around barefoot because I'd literally lost everything. And everybody was 0:11:44.370 --> 0:11:47.170 trying to you know, comfort you and give. 0:11:47.050 --> 0:11:54.460 You advice and it just doesn't comfort you. So you 0:11:54.500 --> 0:11:58.020 feel more alone than ever because you don't want to 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:02.600 hurt their feelings, but everything they're saying to you doesn't penetrate. 0:12:05.860 --> 0:12:09.969 The police didn't help because they followed me everywhere I 0:12:10.050 --> 0:12:12.990 went and talked to everybody. 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.260 After I left and they. 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:21.900 Even showed up at my son's funeral and burial. They 0:12:21.940 --> 0:12:23.780 came to me before I even got out of the 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.700 hospital and told me that it was an arson. They 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:29.140 literally wanted a list of all my. 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.620 Family and friends, anybody that could have possibly done it. 0:12:32.660 --> 0:12:34.660 Then they come back to me and say, no, you're, 0:12:34.820 --> 0:12:37.020 you're the person you're under arrest for this. 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.420 And in a small town, once they make her arrest, 0:12:42.230 --> 0:12:45.640 and put a headline on the paper in a small community, 0:12:46.980 --> 0:12:48.500 in that community's. 0:12:47.980 --> 0:12:49.200 Mind, you're guilty. 0:12:52.059 --> 0:12:55.920 So now you're arrested. How long were you held before 0:12:55.950 --> 0:12:57.450 the trial? Were you able to bail out? 0:12:58.230 --> 0:13:03.170 I was in there from July 6th to October, mid-October. 0:13:03.190 --> 0:13:06.030 I bonded out on a $ 50, 000 cash bond. I tell.... 0:13:09.130 --> 0:13:12.349 My son, Trent, all the time that he's the miracle 0:13:12.390 --> 0:13:17.429 that saved me. But when I got out, I certainly 0:13:17.470 --> 0:13:19.340 didn't care if I lived or died. 0:13:19.790 --> 0:13:23.559 And so I was drinking and doing a lot of 0:13:23.620 --> 0:13:28.960 self-medicating because I just didn't want to feel anymore. 0:13:28.980 --> 0:13:33.640 And in the midst of that, I started getting sick. 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:36.080 And that's when I discovered I was pregnant. 0:13:39.290 --> 0:13:43.610 Yeah, and that's the worst possible scenario, although now, as 0:13:43.650 --> 0:13:46.050 you said, it turns out to be the thing that 0:13:46.150 --> 0:13:51.450 saved you, and we'll get into more of that later. But, Ron, 0:13:51.590 --> 0:13:55.620 this trial is full of, I mean, again, it's horseshit, 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:57.800 the stuff that they were spewing from the stand. 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:00.920 It began with the prosecutor standing in front of the 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:06.120 jury and saying, motive is not an element of the crime. 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:11.360 We don't have to prove motive. people tend not to 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:16.829 commit crimes for no reason. And of course they investigated 0:14:17.090 --> 0:14:21.010 Christine and her motive for this crime. And they found 0:14:21.330 --> 0:14:28.290 that she was a good, loving, caring, wonderful mother, and 0:14:28.330 --> 0:14:34.280 that she and Tony had a beautiful relationship. Everybody said 0:14:34.340 --> 0:14:39.040 that universally. And so they're left with telling the jury, okay, 0:14:40.340 --> 0:14:45.450 Christine committed this horrific crime for no reason, but we 0:14:45.470 --> 0:14:51.630 don't have to prove motive. Then their case depended on 100% 0:14:51.630 --> 0:14:58.440 on this quote unquote expert testimony because Christine didn't set 0:14:58.500 --> 0:15:03.320 this fire. So, of course, nobody saw her set the fire. 0:15:03.420 --> 0:15:06.400 Nobody saw her prepare to set the fire. Nobody heard 0:15:06.450 --> 0:15:10.110 her talk about setting the fire. Nobody afterwards. There was 0:15:10.150 --> 0:15:15.440 no physical evidence, no forensic evidence, no nothing. Of course, 0:15:15.620 --> 0:15:19.840 the trailer wasn't insured. She lost all of her possessions. 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:22.620 She lost, of course, the person who meant most to 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:26.410 her in the world. So they were left with this 0:15:26.630 --> 0:15:34.130 expert testimony, these absurd fire investigation myths, which should have 0:15:34.220 --> 0:15:39.100 and could have been dispelled by a defense attorney or 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.140 a competent attorney. defense expert. But there was something else 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.780 that was critical in this trial that would have been 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:49.400 difficult for a defense attorney to combat. 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:52.020 And I have to tell the audience that this critical 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.960 evidence becomes just as important later to proving Christine's innocence 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.540 as it was in getting her convicted. But go ahead, Ron. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:05.830 They took 10 samples from The trailer from the floor 0:16:05.950 --> 0:16:08.620 of the trailer, from the carpet of the trailer, from 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:15.010 Christine's nightgown. And they tested it for various accelerants. There 0:16:15.050 --> 0:16:20.280 was no gasoline. There was no inflammatory substance of any 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:25.010 kind on Christine's nightgown, even though they said that she 0:16:25.050 --> 0:16:29.910 would splash this accelerant all around. But there were two 0:16:30.590 --> 0:16:34.400 positive samples. And those samples, by the way, were given 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:38.780 to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, ATF, who 0:16:38.980 --> 0:16:43.920 federally investigates arson crimes. And they have special laboratories and 0:16:43.980 --> 0:16:51.310 they did gas chromatography on these samples. And they presented 0:16:51.530 --> 0:16:57.590 evidence at trial that there were two positive tests for 0:16:57.870 --> 0:17:03.440 what they called a heavy petroleum distillate, like jet fuel 0:17:03.740 --> 0:17:10.440 or something else, specifically not kerosene. And that was found 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:16.690 in the living room area and critically in the front room, 0:17:17.220 --> 0:17:21.980 the room where Tony was found. Now, there is reason 0:17:22.060 --> 0:17:24.980 for there to be kerosene in the living room because 0:17:25.020 --> 0:17:29.959 the prior owners of this trailer testified that they had 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.990 a kerosene heater and that they overfilled it from time 0:17:33.050 --> 0:17:37.390 to time. kerosene does not evaporate. And so even from 0:17:37.530 --> 0:17:41.170 years before, there would be kerosene in the wood. But 0:17:41.250 --> 0:17:45.570 there's no explanation for a heavy petroleum distillate like jet fuel. 0:17:46.290 --> 0:17:51.909 And there is absolutely no innocent explanation for there to 0:17:51.950 --> 0:17:56.530 be a heavy petroleum distillate in the front room, Tony's bedroom. 0:17:56.830 --> 0:18:03.050 And that was critical evidence that was not refuted by 0:18:03.109 --> 0:18:07.450 the defense attorney. And on the strength of that expert 0:18:07.510 --> 0:18:13.800 testimony and these critical lab determinations, Christine was convicted. 0:18:14.380 --> 0:18:21.780 March 4th, 1996, 22 years old, pregnant. Christine is convicted 0:18:21.980 --> 0:18:26.580 of arson and murder. Less than a month later, she's 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:31.030 sentenced to two concurrent terms, 60 years for murder, and 0:18:31.030 --> 0:18:33.950 50 years for arson. So how pregnant were you, Christine, 0:18:33.990 --> 0:18:36.340 at the time of this wrongful conviction? And what the 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:38.800 hell was it like giving birth behind bars? 0:18:40.500 --> 0:18:45.300 Um, I was almost six months pregnant. The only thing 0:18:45.340 --> 0:18:47.980 they don't do to pregnant women is make them wear 0:18:48.020 --> 0:18:51.760 the belly chain and the box because the baby's not 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:56.680 a prisoner. But, um, With so many pregnant women in there, 0:18:56.740 --> 0:19:00.390 you don't always get soft cuffs for your feet. So 0:19:01.190 --> 0:19:05.250 I've got deep scars on the back of my ankles 0:19:05.690 --> 0:19:13.030 from wearing those metal shackles. And then when I finally 0:19:13.050 --> 0:19:15.780 went into labor, I didn't really know. 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:17.340 That I was in labor because I was just having 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:18.000 a backache. 0:19:19.220 --> 0:19:22.580 So they took me to the infirmary and couldn't find 0:19:22.619 --> 0:19:23.140 a heartbeat. 0:19:24.180 --> 0:19:24.820 I lost it. 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:28.820 I started, you know, screaming at him. And so I 0:19:28.859 --> 0:19:31.570 was handcuffed and shackled and taken out into an ambulance. 0:19:32.220 --> 0:19:35.110 And when I got to the hospital, a doctor come 0:19:35.150 --> 0:19:38.070 in and explained that I was having contractions and that's 0:19:38.109 --> 0:19:41.830 why they couldn't hear the heartbeat. They determined that I 0:19:41.850 --> 0:19:45.150 was going to have an emergency C-section. So the handcuffs 0:19:45.190 --> 0:19:48.550 and shackles came off and I got a metal. 0:19:48.530 --> 0:19:50.480 Cuff on my ankle and a log chain. 0:19:52.300 --> 0:19:56.609 I got about 36 hours with Trent and then I 0:19:56.630 --> 0:20:00.510 was transferred back to the facility and my family took 0:20:00.550 --> 0:20:00.950 him home. 0:20:14.260 --> 0:20:17.159 So the good news is that there is actually an 0:20:17.380 --> 0:20:20.720 equal or greater number of heroes in this story than villains. 0:20:21.460 --> 0:20:25.680 Betsy Marks, Hilary Bo Ricks, Jamie McAllister, and the other 0:20:25.740 --> 0:20:30.379 two actual fire scientists, John DeHaan and John Malooly, plus 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:35.810 the electrical engineer Richard Hansen. Then Karen Daniel and Jane Raley, 0:20:36.330 --> 0:20:40.070 legends in the field, were on your side. And of course, 0:20:40.090 --> 0:20:42.810 you're on my side. Ron himself, Ron Safer. I mean, 0:20:42.830 --> 0:20:45.960 the fucking cavalry came in on this one, right? Can 0:20:46.010 --> 0:20:50.130 you talk now about the process that led 17 years 0:20:50.170 --> 0:20:52.290 later to Christine finally coming home? 0:20:53.150 --> 0:21:01.020 Yes, Christine pursued this tirelessly against all odds. Found a 0:21:01.140 --> 0:21:06.720 wonderful local attorney, Hilary Bo Ricks, who believed in Christine, 0:21:06.900 --> 0:21:10.330 but really did not have the resources to take on 0:21:10.350 --> 0:21:14.090 the awesome power of the state. And a supporter of 0:21:14.190 --> 0:21:18.169 Christine wrote a letter to Northwestern Center on Wrongful Convictions. 0:21:18.490 --> 0:21:23.490 And Jane Raley, along with Karen Daniel, took Christine's case 0:21:24.210 --> 0:21:29.920 and they disassembled Every piece of evidence the state put forward, 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:36.280 Karen and Jane assembled the world's experts on fire science, 0:21:36.900 --> 0:21:41.290 not the myths of arson investigation, but on fire science 0:21:41.530 --> 0:21:45.790 to prove first that everything the state said was wrong. 0:21:46.390 --> 0:21:51.490 And then second, that Christine was innocent, not beyond a 0:21:51.550 --> 0:21:56.800 reasonable doubt, beyond any doubt. So first, they got... a 0:21:56.900 --> 0:22:01.419 former ATF agent, and he testified that every one of 0:22:01.500 --> 0:22:06.810 the myths that was used by the so-called arson investigator, 0:22:06.930 --> 0:22:11.310 Brian Frank, was wrong. A V pattern does not indicate 0:22:11.330 --> 0:22:14.710 a point of origin. It indicates a point where something 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:18.480 burned against a wall. Fire burns down not because of 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:22.740 a liquid accelerant, but because it's seeking oxygen and there 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:26.639 was a hole in the trailer. So the burn patterns 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:30.820 that Frank says indicated that there was a liquid accelerant 0:22:31.260 --> 0:22:34.700 have been disproved. Brian Frank said that the fire was 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:39.139 hotter because a liquid accelerant was used. That is a myth. 0:22:39.619 --> 0:22:45.409 Controlled experiments prove that fire is no hotter. Indeed, the 0:22:45.470 --> 0:22:51.040 heat depends on what is being burnt. So chemistry, Physics 0:22:51.619 --> 0:22:55.640 disproved every one of the pieces of evidence. But there 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:59.940 was one more critical thing that Karen Daniel did that 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:06.139 was pivotal. She subpoenaed the underlying test data that had 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:09.939 been used by the ATF lab and all of the 0:23:09.980 --> 0:23:17.320 documents related to those tests. And what that found was stunning. First, 0:23:17.820 --> 0:23:23.169 she got the actual gas chromatographs, so the actual tests. 0:23:23.609 --> 0:23:27.490 And contrary to his testimony, he did test against the 0:23:27.550 --> 0:23:32.080 standard of kerosene, not a heavy distillate, but kerosene. Then, 0:23:32.630 --> 0:23:36.709 When you look at those actual test data, you find that, yes, 0:23:37.250 --> 0:23:41.230 there was kerosene in the living room where the kerosene 0:23:41.300 --> 0:23:45.540 heater had been years before. But then you look at 0:23:45.580 --> 0:23:50.320 the sample from Tony's bedroom, the sample that convicted Christine, 0:23:50.859 --> 0:23:58.450 and the test was negative for any liquid accelerant. Kerosene, 0:23:58.790 --> 0:24:04.980 heavy petroleum distillate, nothing. What's more, in that file, there 0:24:05.020 --> 0:24:11.410 was a draft report that reflected accurately the test results. 0:24:11.550 --> 0:24:14.250 That is that there had been kerosene in the living 0:24:14.310 --> 0:24:18.350 room and that the sample in Tony's bedroom was negative. 0:24:18.950 --> 0:24:23.850 And then there was a report that in handwriting that 0:24:24.050 --> 0:24:29.150 crossed that out and made that test result positive. How 0:24:29.230 --> 0:24:33.420 that happened, unfortunately, we'll never know. Because by the time 0:24:33.460 --> 0:24:36.840 we got to the hearing, the ATF agent who is 0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:42.379 now deceased was incompetent in an assisted living home and 0:24:42.590 --> 0:24:46.830 could not testify about what happened. But what was clear 0:24:46.970 --> 0:24:55.470 was Christine was convicted based on not only faulty but 0:24:55.790 --> 0:25:00.590 false evidence. So that takes care of the state's case. 0:25:01.050 --> 0:25:04.669 So Christine's team exposed the junk science and the outright 0:25:04.710 --> 0:25:07.600 falsification of the real scientific data that led to her conviction. 0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:10.159 And by the way, these are your tax dollars at work. 0:25:10.500 --> 0:25:13.500 And if you don't think this could happen to you, well, 0:25:13.540 --> 0:25:17.359 don't even get me started. There's more to this. And 0:25:17.380 --> 0:25:20.830 I'm talking about what the defense's expert, Jamie McAllister, testified 0:25:20.890 --> 0:25:23.690 to about how the fire really started. 0:25:24.010 --> 0:25:29.200 Jamie McAllister, who is an expert in examining the victim's 0:25:29.280 --> 0:25:33.680 chemistry and reverse engineering how a fire must have started, 0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:39.429 testified about how this fire started. Tony died before the 0:25:39.490 --> 0:25:44.910 fire got hot. He died of carbon monoxide poisoning. There 0:25:44.950 --> 0:25:49.230 was no burning in his trachea, no burning in his lungs. 0:25:49.970 --> 0:25:54.369 And so he had stopped breathing before the fire got hot. 0:25:55.290 --> 0:25:58.730 His carboxyhemoglobin rate, which is what we refer to as 0:25:58.820 --> 0:26:03.680 carbon monoxide poisoning, it's when the carbon monoxide bonds with 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:05.260 your blood, the hemoglobin. 0:26:05.850 --> 0:26:06.190 Was 80%. 0:26:06.190 --> 0:26:13.879 50% is lethal. So how did it get that high? Well, 0:26:14.100 --> 0:26:18.580 Jamie McAllister testifies that controlled experiments show that if the 0:26:18.680 --> 0:26:22.139 fire had started out in the open air of the 0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:25.420 living room or the bedroom, it would have produced a 0:26:25.600 --> 0:26:30.629 lot of carbon dioxide to oxygen molecules because there's a 0:26:30.690 --> 0:26:36.450 lot of air floating around. and very little carbon monoxide, 0:26:36.930 --> 0:26:42.909 one oxygen molecule. It would have taken 90 minutes for 0:26:43.109 --> 0:26:47.430 the fire to have produced enough carbon monoxide for Tony 0:26:47.770 --> 0:26:52.850 to have gotten to a carboxyhemoglobin rate approaching 80%. He 0:26:52.910 --> 0:26:57.130 would have burned to death long before that. And of course, 0:26:57.170 --> 0:27:01.169 his lungs and everything else would have burned. That didn't happen. 0:27:01.850 --> 0:27:07.470 So how did this fire happen? Well, as an electrician testified, 0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:13.000 there were electrical wires that were overloaded that ran between 0:27:13.240 --> 0:27:17.700 the roof and the drop-down ceiling tiles. There was an 0:27:17.780 --> 0:27:22.330 electrical fire that started that morning. But because there's limited 0:27:22.609 --> 0:27:27.409 oxygen there, what happens is the fire smolders and it 0:27:27.470 --> 0:27:33.889 produces a lot of carbon monoxide. up in the ceiling. Now, eventually, 0:27:34.470 --> 0:27:37.770 the fire gets hot enough so that one of the 0:27:37.810 --> 0:27:43.250 ceiling tiles burns and drops to the floor. That undoubtedly 0:27:43.450 --> 0:27:48.290 is what Christine awakens to. Now, when that happens, the 0:27:48.350 --> 0:27:53.189 carbon monoxide fills Tony's room like a balloon that is 0:27:53.300 --> 0:27:58.090 letting out its air. Physical tests and chemical tests prove 0:27:58.350 --> 0:28:04.350 within minutes he dies of carbon monoxide poisoning. That's how 0:28:04.490 --> 0:28:09.250 this fire had to have happened. And thus, not only 0:28:09.310 --> 0:28:14.140 was there no evidence that Christine was guilty of an arson, 0:28:14.640 --> 0:28:19.520 there was conclusive evidence that the fire was an accidental fire. 0:28:20.109 --> 0:28:24.100 that took place in the confined area of the ceiling 0:28:24.340 --> 0:28:29.240 and that Tony died, as everybody knew, of carbon monoxide poisoning. 0:28:30.480 --> 0:28:32.820 But in spite of all of this, on June 8th 0:28:32.840 --> 0:28:36.820 of 2010, now over 14 years after your conviction, Judge 0:28:37.020 --> 0:28:42.420 Westhofer denied you a new trial. He said, quote, while, 0:28:42.510 --> 0:28:44.890 and this is a quote, while Ms. Bunch had new 0:28:44.950 --> 0:28:49.680 resources available to her at the post-conviction hearing, New experts 0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:52.900