WEBVTT - Con Artists & Liars 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.920 The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:09.240 themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.160 because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.400 He just walked around shot all the black people. The 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.440 cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.160 out how to go on and how to compete. I 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.840 wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:28.640 Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.720 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.800 I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.200 it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.560 a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.040 to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.239 Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.080 this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.560 I would call him and I would say, I know 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.080 you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.440 Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.479 get your podcasts. This is the story of a man 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:15.000 who's fascinated me. His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.319 that's a name you don't forget. He was a visionary 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.399 who built a fortune as a black man during Jim 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.800 Crow during the Depression, but today not many people know 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:28.920 about him. The race sort of wiped out, and I 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:33.000 wonder if this was done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:36.720 Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:41.120 get your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years, I've been 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.880 on the road playing shows and seeing America through live music. 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.360 This summer, I'll hit the stage. Who Season two of 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:51.000 Sound of Our Town ten cities twelve episodes every other Thursday, 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.680 we explore the live music venues and culture of a 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.000 new American city. With each new episode, our tour continues 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:58.520 into the kind of venues you want to get to 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:03.200 when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver, or Seattle. Listen 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.560 to Sound of Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:13.880 or wherever you get your podcasts. In Pike County, the 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.640 First Witnesses and the murder trial of George Wagner, the 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:21.040 fourth took the stand. Imagine this. You go to your 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:24.160 sister's house, to your nephew's house. You open the door 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:27.720 and you find them shot to death in bed. It 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.919 sounds medieval almost, but George Wagner, of the Fourth's lawyers 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.679 disputed almost all of that. They also pointed out that 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:37.640 their client, despite phasing eight aggravated murder charges, is not 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:46.200 believed to have killed anyone. This is the Pikes and 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:51.240 Massacre Returned to Pike County Season four, Episode three con 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:57.120 Artists and Liars. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:01.000 KAT Studios, with Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff sha On the 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:03.400 first day of the trial of George Wagner the fourth, 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:07.160 opening statements for the prosecution clocked in at four hours. 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:12.720 It raised some eyebrows among media and legal experts for 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:15.960 its length and amount of detail. After a lunch break, 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:18.360 it was time for the defense to make their case heard. 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:24.200 The defense attorneal here is Richard Nash. Is the defense 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:27.799 ready to give an opening statement? Yes, you may do so. 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:31.639 It's important to note that George Wagner, the Fourth, who 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:35.080 is currently on trial, and his father, Billy Wagner, whose 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:38.760 trial is upcoming, have pleaded not guilty to all charges. 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:46.920 Good afternoon, everybody. April the twenty second, twenty sixteen. George 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.520 Wagner lived on Peterson Road, and that day started off 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:55.480 like most days. Nash is in his mid forties, bald, 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.840 with a beard and glasses. He wears a bright red tie. 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.040 Nash jumps right into the defense's narrative of what happened 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:07.320 in the morning after the murders. George knew he had 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:10.240 one task that he had to do that day, and 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:15.120 that was to disassembly building a wood shed, so to speak. 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:17.320 That was the one thing that he had to do. 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:22.039 But before George could take off to do that, he 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:27.240 noticed that Jake was often that new barn up on 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:31.960 that hill on Peterson Road. Nash is alluding to a 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:34.520 barn that sits on a hill above where the entire 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:38.960 Wagner family resided at the time of the murders. At 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:42.120 that point, nothing seemed suspicious to George. H. Boll Agated 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.440 was off that Jake was already up that day, and 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:49.000 usually Jake is the second to rise. While they were 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:54.800 headed back home to Peterson Road, Jake's cell phone went off. 0:04:56.120 --> 0:05:03.599 There the caller was Andrew Carson. Andrew Carson said hello, Jake, 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:08.559 and there he had a conversation. That's when he thought 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:12.640 he was the first to tell Jake that the mother 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:17.000 of his child, Hannah, had been murdered, along with six 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:23.599 of her relatives. Jake, according to mister Carson, put on 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:27.640 an act worthy of an Academy Award, an act where 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:30.880 he calmed Carson into thinking that he was the first 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.200 to tell him as he wept and cried on the phone, 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:38.520 and that as the first time George learned about murders. 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:44.159 It's at this point the whole world becomes privy to 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:48.320 the defense's main argument. George was not there that night 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:51.599 and didn't know about the murderers until the next day. 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:54.920 This is the first time we're hearing about this, let 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.880 alone at his trial. The pretty bold moved by the 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:03.919 defense to say he wasn't a period. My takeaway is 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.320 that what George Wagner is attempting to do, which is 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:11.040 a pretty interesting strategy, is remove himself from the culpability 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.640 of even being aware that the murders were happening and 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:18.080 letting them happen. And it might work. I mean, the 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:21.599 only evidence that we know of that the prosecution has 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.880 is the shoeprint. As we know, there's nothing really tying 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:28.560 George Wagner to the Rodan murders, the Knight of the murders, 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:32.560 and this is a plausible workaround that the defense has 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.279 come up with or is possibly the truth. We don't 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.480 know if that's yet to be proven. But wouldn't that 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:41.159 completely discount what his brother Jake Wagner is saying. It 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:43.280 would staff, But what I think George Wagner is doing 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.960 is thinking about his own safety at this point. He's 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:47.839 not worried about what Jake's plea deal is or what 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.279 angel Is plea deal. He's worried about himself. What a 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.880 showdown that's actually going to be when you take this 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.839 part into account as well. So for the first time, 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:59.960 George Wagner is going to see his brother, Jake Wagner, 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:04.279 but they're also going to completely disagree on the story. 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:07.800 Shakespeare couldn't have written this better himself. I mean, we've 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.640 heard how close these two brothers were for years growing up, 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:12.920 that they stood by each other, that they protected one another. 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.920 Now this contradictory story is really going to play out 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.560 in court. And you know, we've been wrong before in 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:22.440 terms of what our theories are, what we think, But 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:24.720 I have a hard time wrapping my head around the 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:27.160 idea that George Wagner did not know about these murders. 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:36.880 Here's reporter Annette Levy. I think it's interesting that they 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:39.520 say that George wasn't even there, and I guess they 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.400 have to write because if he's there, he's going down 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.600 for aggravated murder, So they can't concede that point to 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:49.960 the state. But they've talked about in a pre trial 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:52.880 motion in the past that Jake said that George went 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:55.400 along at the last minute because he feared that Billy 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:57.400 might kill Jake at the end of the night. They've 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:06.160 quoted Jake as saying that local journalist James Pilcher was 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:10.840 also in the courtroom. The defense is clearly stating that 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.920 George wasn't there, that the first he heard about the 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:19.960 murders was the next morning, and that Jake had gotten 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:21.960 up before him and was getting rid of the evidence 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:27.360 that morning before he even got up, And that was 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:31.080 surprising to me that they would play that gambit. But 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:34.640 really really hammering on the fact that there is absolutely 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:40.000 not one shred of physical evidence specifically tying George Wagner 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:43.679 to the scene of the crimes or that he killed anybody. 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:48.040 So they are going to leverage that as much as possible. 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:53.679 As this strag goes on, it's clear at this point 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:56.400 that the defense is going all in against the rest 0:08:56.440 --> 0:09:00.720 of the Wagner family. Nash continues to separate George from 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:09.240 his relatives. After some time, BCI had narrowed down who 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:13.480 they felt were suspects. In fact, it's worthy to note 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:21.040 that BCI had interviewed Jake Wagner four times. BCI, conducting 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:26.199 their investigation, also felt it was important that they interviewed 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:30.480 Angela Wagner. The third person that they felt that was 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:34.760 important to talk to in the Wagner household was Billy Wagner. 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:39.760 George was right there. Not once did they ever ask 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:45.640 to speak with George. Earlier that day. During the prosecution's 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:49.360 opening statement, Angie Kneppa revealed that authorities kept tabs on 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:53.800 the Wagners before their arrests, even when they were in Alaska. 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.640 When the family decided to come back to Ohio, investigators 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:02.680 were waiting for them at the US Canadian Board. Imagine, 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:07.880 if you will, four individuals being surprised at a Montana order, 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.680 agents putting them in separate rooms, and BCI walking in 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:15.200 and questioning them first. Billy gives in the vehicle. He's 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.960 released first, and then Angela gets in the vehicle. Not 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:22.360 a word, not a word about, oh my gosh, can 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:24.880 you believe that happened? What they think we did this? 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:28.520 No conversation like that at all, no conversation at all 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:33.199 about what just happened. We find out later that there's 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:37.400 a reason for that, because Billy had told them, you know, 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:43.160 be quiet. The defense tells its side of the story. 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:47.600 We had special agents who had four different rooms where 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:51.920 they spoke with all four family members, and George had 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:55.160 an agent there speaking with him, Special agents and Pagan 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:00.720 and he told George, your family has big problem. George, 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.600 do you want to be a witness or do you 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:12.079 want to be a sessment? Here again. James Pilcher, he 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.280 was being questioned by the BCI when they came across 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:19.120 the border in Montana, and he said, yeah, he had 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:20.880 problems with his family, but he never knew them to 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.640 be violent. He couldn't believe it. He couldn't believe they 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:27.520 would kill somebody. And he's at nine. Special Prosecutor Angie 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.040 Kaneppa objects and she and defense Attorney Nash approached the 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:35.480 bench and huddle with Judge Deering. It is very highly 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:40.720 unusual that the prosecution would interrupt somebody just five minutes 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:49.280 into their opening statement. And at that point they went 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:51.559 to the bench and argued for two minutes, and then 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:54.680 went back into chambers and argued for another eight to 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.800 nine minutes. And then the judge says, you know, opening 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:04.520 statements amount evidence. So clearly the prosecution was trying to say, 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:08.200 he's throwing this out there and he doesn't envy proof 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:11.800 for it, and he needs to be called out. You 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.200 might continue your older state, Thank you, judge. So back 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.959 to that interview room with Special Agent Hageman, he had 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:23.000 just a few statements to make. Then he said, if 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:25.760 I don't know who did it, then you all go 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:31.000 down for conspiracy. And so Hageman never received any information. 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:35.320 And here George says, if I don't hear who did it, 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:39.840 you all go down for conspiracy. This is a trial 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:44.120 about the state of Ohio against George Wager. It's not 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:51.200 the Wagners. It's not Billy Wager. It's not Angela Wagner, 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.840 nor is it Jake Wacker. This is all about George. 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.040 There are certain things in life that we can't control. 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:04.400 One of those things is our birth name. Unfortunately George 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.880 cannot help that he's a wagon, but that doesn't make 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:15.760 him a murder. They are clearly relying on the fact 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.560 that the prosecution has burden of proof here. They can 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.600 just play defense and swat away anything or that they 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.440 can sit there and say, well, George didn't know anything, 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:30.559 and how can you prove it. George gets more animated 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:34.480 as his attorney speaks, making eye contact with the cherry. 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.480 The media outside the courthouse is quick to comment and 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.680 what the defense has really done well out is really 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.600 trying to paint George as an individual, an individual who 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.319 happened to be part of a family who had kind 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.040 of a sortid pass and a pass with corruption and 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:54.040 other criminal behavior. But their argument essentially is just because 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.120 his family is this way doesn't mean that he's this way, 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:01.760 and it certainly doesn't make him a murderer. As you 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.320 hear the evidence in this case, there's five things I 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.000 want you to pay attention to. The first is going 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:13.280 to be what Jake says. Jake will tell you that 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:18.640 George had nothing to do with the plan of these murders. 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:24.520 Jake will tell you that George shot no one. Jake 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:30.680 will tell you that George did nothing to destroy any evidence, 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:35.960 is clearly planning the finger at Jake and Angela and Billy, 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.760 and that George had nothing to do with it. So 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.560 do they just change their story because now they've seen 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:44.960 all of the evidence and are just sort of making 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.160 a strategy switch. Yeah, I think so. And I think 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.320 what they're gonna do is just call the credibility Jake 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:55.760 and Angela, because that's what this case relies on. The 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:58.080 second thing that I want you to pay attention to 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:03.360 will be the credibility of Angela and Jake. The third 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:05.480 thing that I want you to pay attention to is 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.520 the incentives that were offered by the State of Ohio 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.760 for such hing as crimes to Angela and Jake to 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:18.480 get them to talk, to get them to tell a story. 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.760 This is a family of con artists, liars, and deeds. 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.000 He says that in the or and that Jake became 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:27.480 the vessel for all of that and George was not 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.320 like them. George wanted to get away from them, and 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:36.040 it's up to the prosecution to providings. That second thing 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:39.720 I wanted to talk to you about is Jake and Angela, 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:44.440 who are con artists and liars, We've already touched on 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.680 it some. But Angela is the con artist through and through. 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:52.440 That's who the state has is the key witness, con 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:58.240 artists and liars. Clearly, the defensive strategy is going to 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:00.920 be these people are liars. You can't believe a thing 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:03.520 they said. They've lied before. What makes you think they're 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:09.760 not lying now? The cohan didn't stop, then it's continued. 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.880 It's who they are. They've conned the state of Ohio 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.120 into the most heinous crime, into a thirty year sentence, 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.840 in a sentence most deserving of death, he escapes with life. 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:24.920 The plea deal is what I'm speaking of. In order 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:31.200 to avoid the death penalty, they must implicate George. We're 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:37.240 going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:40.280 I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.760 Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:48.440 a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:54.680 He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:59.280 he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:03.280 He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:08.479 went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:12.680 the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:15.920 us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.640 to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:20.719 to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:22.720 him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:25.639 him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.960 I will always hound you and haunt you. You can 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:33.320 listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:38.280 or wherever you get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:41.880 hell is going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:44.399 never confronted a situation like this. I just thought it 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.280 was just a really terrible immoral thing, a line they 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.399 won't cross. I was stunned, and I just said, no, 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.679 we're killing people. You may never have to face that 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:57.560 decision when you find yourself at that line. Thou its ricin, 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:01.120 art ricin, and somebody needs to just for once give 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:06.200 everybody the whole truth. This is evil, and the only 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.920 person who can sound the alarm is you. I wasn't 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:14.679 just going to sit silently. Buy from iHeart podcasts. These 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:17.919 are the whistleblowers. If you are disloyal. Things are going 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.200 to happen to this week out disgrace through our gun. 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:26.320 Evil play should be prosecute. When power corrupts, conscience is 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:30.520 the last line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:34.840 the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:45.240 you get your podcasts. My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.320 and host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:52.760 my award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.280 always time to touch incredible guests about important things people 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:58.480 like me have been screaming for years. We've got to 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.000 watch the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong, what 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:03.800 they're doing is evil. They will take things away, and 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.080 I can only hope that Dobbs, is that like Pearl Harbor, 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:09.560 moment gro You and I both know what it took 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:11.760 to just get through the day in New York City 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.919 and get home in one piece. And so the fact 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.840 that we're here and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:22.160 you know, that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.720 about some bills. The only reason that you might think 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:27.840 as Chase said that we're always miserable is because people 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.920 are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.840 to the Laverne Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:38.959 or wherever you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:44.679 and share. Have you ever covered a carpet staining with 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:48.560 a rug, ignored a leaky faucet, pretended your half painted 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:51.520 living room is supposed to look like that? Well, you're 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.560 not alone. We've all got unfinished home project. But there's 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:57.359 an easier way. Thumbtack is the app that makes it 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:59.439 easier to care for your home. Pull out on your 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:02.800 phone and just a few taps, search chat and book 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:06.240 highly rated pros right in your neighborhood. Download thumb chat 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:15.520 and start caring for your home the easier way. As 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:18.879 nashleys into the rest of the Wagners, George listens with 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:21.960 a hint of sadness on his face. Going back to 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.919 the morning after the murders, the defense lays out their story. 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:29.000 According to Nash, Jake was in the barn destroying cell phones, 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:32.600 burning clothes, and breaking down the silencers and weapons used 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:39.560 in the murders. There's no physical evidence George was at 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:44.080 any of those murder scenes. There's no DNA, there's no prints, 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:50.080 and bci knew he had no motive. Outside the courtroom, 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:54.840 Mike Allen comments, sure, she seems like it's a strong 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:57.359 case for the state, But you know, the defense, I 0:20:57.359 --> 0:20:59.840 don't think they'd be taken this to trial unless they 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:02.480 thought they had something. So it's going to be interesting 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:05.120 to see again two of the family members plat out 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.120 too to give people backstory. That's correct to clat out. 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.080 I think the states loaded for bear, But again, we 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:13.479 just don't know what the defense strategy is. It's going 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.680 to be interesting to see The defense closes by once 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:21.120 again highlighting the character differences between their client, George Wagner 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.879 the fourth and the rest of the Wagner family. The 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:28.080 last thing I want to tell you about is George 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:32.600 is not like his mother, his father, or as a brother. 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:37.720 He's different from them. George disagreed with the way that 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:41.880 his family lived their life. He disagreed with them so 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:45.800 much he actually engaged in physical fistfights with his father. 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:51.679 George disliked the way that that family functions so much 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:54.760 he was not part of them. That as soon as 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:57.240 he could leave that home. As soon as he got 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:00.840 his driver's license when he was sixteen years old, he left. 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.240 He ran away George's like the most sixteen year olds, 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:07.480 couldn't make it at sixteen, so unfortunately he had to 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:11.840 come back home. We believe the evidence will show that 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:16.200 George could not have committed these murdys, and it goes further. 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:21.200 We believe the evidence will show that Jake in fact 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:25.800 killed all eight, but he had to implicate his father 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:28.800 in actually killing somebody. But the evidence will show that 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:33.880 Jake killed always. We've heard mixed things about George over 0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:36.239 the years, but we also have heard that he was 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:41.960 just very loved and had close friendships, had very close relationships. 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:44.280 I go back to our interview with Chris Newcome, who 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:47.120 was Angela Wagner's half brother, and he grew up very 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:50.719 close with Jake and George, and he explained to us 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:55.800 he felt completely betrayed by George, specifically because he considered 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:58.720 him more like a brother than anything else, and he 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:01.439 couldn't possibly imagine that he would have had anything to 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:04.240 do with this more than any of the other family members. 0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:07.680 And so I guess, I mean, is it possible that 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:11.400 George didn't do this and he's been roped into this 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:14.560 awful crime by his family who was scheming to kind 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:18.080 of bring him down with them. Either that or he's 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:22.119 a really good liar. This is the outline, your bullet points. 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:25.240 You're going to see this, this, and this. Now. The 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:29.320 prosecution obviously when much longer, they have a much gunch, 0:23:29.359 --> 0:23:32.280 bigger case. They have all this evidence that they've been 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:35.280 gathering for four years and not been able to present anybody, 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:38.000 and so they just dumped it all over the jury. 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:42.040 Knowing what we know now about the opening statements in 0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:46.040 what has been said, is it becoming possible that he 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:51.280 could walk free or does that still seem completely impossible? 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:56.880 It depends on how believable the jury finds Jake and Angela. 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:01.680 Is it possible that he walks free? Absolutely as possible. 0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:06.000 You never can tell. The next morning, witness testimony begins. 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:10.960 First up is victim Dana Roden's sister Bobby Joe Manley. 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:13.960 Bobby Manly and a friend found the first two victims, 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:17.240 Chris Roden Senior and his cousin Gary. That discovery was 0:24:17.280 --> 0:24:20.080 quickly followed by this English nine one one call, which 0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:26.160 was played for the jury. Nine one yes, Yes, forty seven, 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:32.840 seventy forty seventy seven, forty seventy seven. Okay fourtyero seven 0:24:33.000 --> 0:24:40.560 seventy emil correct, Yes, that's for you than man going on. 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:46.119 There's blood all over the house. Okay, my brother in lawson, 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:55.520 I'll be the hell them. Okay, what's your brother in 0:24:55.600 --> 0:24:59.520 law's name? Chris Roden and Harry Roden, Frank and Garry 0:24:59.640 --> 0:25:02.879 Road start times and it looks like the Dad, I 0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:05.840 think they're both dead. I thank the breath. Dad. Let's 0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:09.320 our phone has pop out of Okay, there anybody else 0:25:09.359 --> 0:25:14.760 from the house. I don't know us. Okay, so door 0:25:14.960 --> 0:25:18.359 was awfull. We got here, but I haven't went in 0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:21.280 and hit her running on the floor and out. Okay, 0:25:21.560 --> 0:25:24.160 enough starts like now, okay to stay out of the house. 0:25:24.200 --> 0:25:27.280 Don't let anybody go in there playing. Yeah, all right, 0:25:27.359 --> 0:25:34.800 we got deputing home. They okay, I thank you. I 0:25:34.800 --> 0:25:37.400 think it's always just worth mentioning. So many listeners reach 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:40.959 out on a regular basis giving us tips, and we 0:25:41.240 --> 0:25:43.640 take every one of them seriously and do our very 0:25:43.680 --> 0:25:47.200 best to go down the rabbit hole on each of them. 0:25:47.359 --> 0:25:50.520 We've also had listeners reach out to say they thought 0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:52.960 they heard something for example, and the nine one call, 0:25:53.520 --> 0:25:56.040 was there something else in the background that maybe we 0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:59.520 hadn't covered before, And we did look into that, for example, 0:25:59.600 --> 0:26:02.760 and ultimately we weren't able to hear anything that wasn't 0:26:02.760 --> 0:26:06.240 already reported about anything that listeners ond us. We put 0:26:06.240 --> 0:26:09.280 through a very strict filter of whether or not it's 0:26:09.320 --> 0:26:11.639 worth sharing on this platform. We don't want to share 0:26:11.680 --> 0:26:15.080 any rumors or any mistruths because we know how toxic 0:26:15.119 --> 0:26:17.560 that can be for the family. But yeah, we always 0:26:17.640 --> 0:26:20.760 encourage our listeners to share and interact with the shop. 0:26:23.160 --> 0:26:26.240