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Speaker 1: Welcome to Steph you missed in history class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast,

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Speaker 1: and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Tracy, We're going to be

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Speaker 1: out in the world soon, really soon. We're going to

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Speaker 1: escape from the studio the weekend immediately after this episode

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Speaker 1: comes out, we will be at Convention Days in Seneca Falls,

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Speaker 1: New York. Yeah, we're gonna do a live show there

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Speaker 1: about Frederick Douglas and that is going to be on

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Speaker 1: July the six. This is that's the year that we

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Speaker 1: are in right now, correct, And if you would like,

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Speaker 1: if you would like to tails, you can go to

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Speaker 1: Convention Days dot com for the whole schedule, including when

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Speaker 1: and where our show will be. Yeah, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of great programming at Convention Days, a lot of yes. So,

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Speaker 1: now do you want to get into the episode I do.

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Speaker 1: Last year, after we did our episode about James Webb

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Speaker 1: and the James web Space telescope, for which I have

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Speaker 1: deep fund this, we got a lovely eat Neil mentioning

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Speaker 1: that Hugh Dryden is another figure in NASA's history that

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Speaker 1: would really be worth talking about. But the best part

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Speaker 1: is it that email actually came from none other than

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Speaker 1: NASA's chief historian, Bill Berry. Yes, it's always cool when

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Speaker 1: you get an email from the person that is the

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Speaker 1: actual bona fide expert on something. Yeah, so it really

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Speaker 1: seemed like it would be a wasted opportunity not to

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Speaker 1: ask Bill to come on a podcast and talk about

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Speaker 1: it himself directly. So that is exactly what Holly did,

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Speaker 1: and he very kindly agreed, and today we have that conversation,

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Speaker 1: and of course Bill was a percent correct. Hugh Dryden

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Speaker 1: is a really impressive figure in NASA history, but he

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Speaker 1: was just a surprising and inspiring person in general. But

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Speaker 1: we can say all of that, but it's really better

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Speaker 1: if we just let Bill tell you all about So

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Speaker 1: we are lucky enough to have Bill Berry, who is

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Speaker 1: NASA's chief historian, here on the line, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about Hugh Dryden. But before we get into

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Speaker 1: dryden story and his legacy, I have to ask, how

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Speaker 1: does one become a NASA historian? Well, that's a really

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Speaker 1: good question. Um. Being an aerospace history geek helps a

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Speaker 1: real a real lot, um, but also luck plays a

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Speaker 1: really big factor. Um. There are actually only seven people

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Speaker 1: who are historians who work for NASA. Two of them

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Speaker 1: here at headquarters and the other five scattered around the

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Speaker 1: agency in various spots. So, um, do you not know,

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Speaker 1: I have to you know, be qualified for it, but

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Speaker 1: you have to wait for the magic ferry dust to

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Speaker 1: land on you at the same time, so one of

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Speaker 1: those spots opens up. I was gonna say, I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine that's a high turnover job. I think if you

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Speaker 1: get it, you probably love it. Uh well, there have

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Speaker 1: been six chief historians so far in the history of NASA,

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Speaker 1: so since n so, so it tends to be a

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Speaker 1: long tenure job yet and we're all pretty happy with

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Speaker 1: the job. That's perfect. Uh So, now we can transition

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Speaker 1: over to a huge riding story. And first, you had

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Speaker 1: actually mentioned him to me when you first emailed us,

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Speaker 1: And I'm curious from your perspective, what makes Hugh Dryden

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Speaker 1: an important part of history. Uh well, I really enjoyed

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Speaker 1: the episode uh that you guys did on Jim Webb,

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Speaker 1: and but as I was listening to it, I you

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Speaker 1: mentioned Hugh Ryden kind of just in passing, and it's

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Speaker 1: kind of a um character that didn't seem all that

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Speaker 1: important to the story, But he really is critical to

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Speaker 1: the whole history of aerospace in the first half of

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Speaker 1: the twentieth century. In a lot of ways, Dryden sort

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Speaker 1: of the Forrest Gump of aerospace history. Um, he's in

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Speaker 1: all the pictures. Oftentimes in his case he would be

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Speaker 1: in a backgrow hiding someplace. But but he was a

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Speaker 1: major force behind all the federally sponsored research on flight

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Speaker 1: and in the twentieth century and had a huge impact

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Speaker 1: on making NASA what it is. So when you first

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Speaker 1: reached out to me, you also called Dryden much overlooked,

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Speaker 1: And I wonder why you think there hasn't really been

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Speaker 1: a lot of spotlight shined on his particular legacy. So

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Speaker 1: there are really two things that I think drive the

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Speaker 1: issue on on why he dried in his overlooked by history. UM.

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Speaker 1: One is himself and one is the timing of his death. UM.

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Speaker 1: He was very much an introvert, very self confident, but

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Speaker 1: also you know, quiet and self effacing, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of his traces back to his religious views, I think

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Speaker 1: where he didn't believe in promoting himself. UM. Interestingly, he

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Speaker 1: could be he really could be very quite sociable and

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Speaker 1: he was very effective at dealing with people. UM. And

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Speaker 1: in fact he was so effective at sort of hiding

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Speaker 1: things about himself that most people didn't know. He was

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Speaker 1: a teetotaler. So he'd go to hit cut of these events,

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Speaker 1: you know, parties and events and things, and he would

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Speaker 1: always go over and have a quiet word with the

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Speaker 1: bartender at the beginning and say, you know, give me

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Speaker 1: a highball glassful of ice and water and just keep

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Speaker 1: refilling it from time at the time. So he was

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Speaker 1: drinking water the whole time, and nobody realized that. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: an interesting guy. Um. And the other thing courses is

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Speaker 1: he dies in December nineteen sixty five. Um, And that's

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Speaker 1: before all the big things happened at NASA, and when

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Speaker 1: NASA achieves the goal of landing a man in the

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Speaker 1: moon in a decade, and most of the sort of

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Speaker 1: retelling of the story of you know, how we got

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Speaker 1: to the moon happens after ninety nine, and he wasn't

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Speaker 1: around to sort of talk about his partner, to be

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Speaker 1: interviewed and things like that. So so his kind of

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Speaker 1: really critical role in that. So he gets left behind

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Speaker 1: because you know, there was no one near to really

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Speaker 1: tell his story. And by the time they started asking questions,

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Speaker 1: he had been gone for four or five years. So um,

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Speaker 1: he did play an incredibly crucial role behind the scenes,

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Speaker 1: but not well recognized, in part because he didn't push

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Speaker 1: his own story and also in part because he just

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Speaker 1: wasn't there to tell it when the time came. And

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Speaker 1: his life story really started out pretty humbly, but then

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Speaker 1: he excelled so much academically that it kind of catapulted

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Speaker 1: him into being the person that eventually had this impact.

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Speaker 1: Will you tell us a little bit about his early life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Dryden is really the classic American story of the kids

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Speaker 1: from you know, out of nowhere, achieves great things in

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Speaker 1: his life and and and and and has a huge impact.

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Speaker 1: He was born July second, just before the turn of

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Speaker 1: the century there in Pocomoke City and rural southern Maryland,

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Speaker 1: from a not particularly distinguished family that the Dryden's were merchants,

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Speaker 1: mostly um but he was reading by the age of

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Speaker 1: four and um um. About that time, his father's business

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Speaker 1: went went bust in the nineteen oh seven um um

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Speaker 1: recession in the United States. Uh So the family moved

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Speaker 1: to Baltimore, and his father, who had been a school

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Speaker 1: teacher for a while and then a shopkeeper, winds up

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Speaker 1: working as a tram conductor in Baltimore for the rest

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Speaker 1: of his life, barely kind of squeaking by a living

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Speaker 1: for the family, but driving himself, as uh recognized for

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Speaker 1: you know, his early academic achieve and moved quickly through school. Um.

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Speaker 1: And he was around for some interesting things. That the

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Speaker 1: first airplane flight over the city of Baltimore where he

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Speaker 1: lived was on November seventh, nineteen ten, and like most

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Speaker 1: of the rest of the city, Drying was out there

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Speaker 1: to watch it. Um. And he was in school at

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Speaker 1: the time, and he wrote a paper about it. And

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Speaker 1: in fact, the paper he wrote was about why airships

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Speaker 1: or you know, dirigibles or bloimps, why those were better

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Speaker 1: than airplanes? Uh and and and he got an f

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Speaker 1: on the paper, by the way. Um. But curiously enough,

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Speaker 1: actually he was right about most of his observations as

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Speaker 1: a young man. He saw that, you know, planes were

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Speaker 1: not very reliable, They couldn't fly for very long, they

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Speaker 1: were very fragile and would break easily. Uh And But

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Speaker 1: he's hooked on aviation, and he winds up actually solving

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Speaker 1: most of the problems that he identified in that first

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Speaker 1: paper in nineteen ten. UM. As he's working on air

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Speaker 1: aeronautx research in the twenties and thirties. So anyway, so

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Speaker 1: he graduates from high school in three years at the

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Speaker 1: age of fourteen. So he rushes through school there, he's

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Speaker 1: number one in his class. UM. He has no prospect

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Speaker 1: for going to college, but at number of his teachers

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Speaker 1: from UM from high school, UH find a scholarship for

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Speaker 1: him and get him to Johns Hopkins. And so he

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Speaker 1: goes to Johns Hopkins, which happens to be in Baltimore,

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Speaker 1: so we can live at home and live cheaply. UM.

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Speaker 1: And again he finishes in three years, four year course

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Speaker 1: at college in physics, graduates at the top of his

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Speaker 1: class and then moves into a right into the master's

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Speaker 1: program and then the PhD UM and he finishes his

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Speaker 1: PhD at the age of twenty, the youngest PhD in

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Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins history and UH. And he wrote his his

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Speaker 1: dissertation on basically supersonic UH flight, the physical principles behind

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Speaker 1: supersonic flight. And this is when airplanes were going just

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Speaker 1: barely over a hundred miles an hour, So pretty amazing

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Speaker 1: the guy to be seeing that far ahead into the

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Speaker 1: future and and achieving the academic things and and doing

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Speaker 1: so from the very modest background. He seems so much

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Speaker 1: like the perfect combination of uh inherent intellect and talent

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Speaker 1: and like hard work, that it kind of is the

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Speaker 1: perfect recipe right for him to achieve. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: can't imagine getting a PhD at twenty that's a lot

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Speaker 1: of work. Yeah, it took me a lot longer to

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Speaker 1: do that myself. I think it takes almost everything, everybody

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Speaker 1: a lot longer. He's amazing, that's really astonishing. UM. And

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Speaker 1: one of his professors, Joseph Ames, really played a large

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Speaker 1: role in Dryden's life. Would you talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about their relationship and how Dryden eventually ended up with

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Speaker 1: a job in aerodynamics at the National Bureau of Standards. Sure,

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Speaker 1: Joseph Aames was, of course, uh not as well known now,

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Speaker 1: but he was. He was a titan in physics research

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Speaker 1: in in the early twentieth century. UM. He wound up

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Speaker 1: he was ahead of the Department of Physics at Johns

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Speaker 1: Hopkins when when Dryden first showed up there, but later

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Speaker 1: he became the president of Johns Hopkins University, and also

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Speaker 1: for most of that time he was the chairman of

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Speaker 1: the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics UM, which was the

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Speaker 1: organization founded in nineteen fifteen, and it eventually becomes NASA

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Speaker 1: and the basis of NASA UM. But as a chairman

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Speaker 1: of the Committee UM, he basically controlled the group that

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Speaker 1: made decisions about you know, what research and that n

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Speaker 1: a c A would would perform and kind of what

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Speaker 1: directions they were going, and did a lot of the

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Speaker 1: you know, political work in Washington, d C. To make

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Speaker 1: sure that n a c A had the funding it

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Speaker 1: needed to do things. So Aames takes Drying under his wing.

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Speaker 1: When he shows up as a master student. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's clear that Dryden is extremely gifted and talented, but

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Speaker 1: also very young. UM and UM. Because Aames is well

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Speaker 1: connected in the Washington, d C. Area, he's able to

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Speaker 1: put UM Drying in a job at the National Bureau

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Speaker 1: of Stands Drying just just got married about then and

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Speaker 1: had a you know, a wife to take care of,

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Speaker 1: didn't have a whole lot of job prospects, UM, and

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Speaker 1: so World War One is still going on at the time,

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Speaker 1: and and Ames puts UM drying at the National Bureau

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Speaker 1: of Standards UH, originally doing sort of basic side you know,

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Speaker 1: physics research work, but UM quickly, the Bureau of Standards

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Speaker 1: decides to establish an aerodynamics section and Drying. At the

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Speaker 1: age of twenty two, becomes the first chief of the

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Speaker 1: Aerodynamics Section at the National Bureau of Standards UM and

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Speaker 1: National Bureau Standards had its own wind tunnels, did a

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Speaker 1: lot of research work UH and that in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenties and thirties UM and UH Aames now had you know,

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Speaker 1: Professor Amames now had a inside guy that he knows

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Speaker 1: at National Beureau Standards UH with these wind tunnels, and

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Speaker 1: so he starts funneling an A c A research projects

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Speaker 1: toward towards drying, and Drying does a lot of really

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Speaker 1: important work for for an A C. A while at

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Speaker 1: the National Bureau of Standards UM. UH. While he's at

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Speaker 1: National Beera Standards, he shows um not only an ability

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Speaker 1: to be a brilliant thinker about things, but he's also

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Speaker 1: really good with people. And he rises quickly too, you know,

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Speaker 1: from the chief at Aerodynamics Section to a number of

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Speaker 1: other responsible positions in the Bureau UM and eventually is

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Speaker 1: the deputy head by the by the end of World

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Speaker 1: War two. UM and in the process he establishes an

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Speaker 1: international scientific reputation for himself UM, not not just for

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Speaker 1: being a smart guy who can think theoretically, but also

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Speaker 1: someone who can do practical things like UM. One of

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Speaker 1: the problems they had was that was the wind tunnels.

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Speaker 1: The accuracy of the replicability of data from wind various

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Speaker 1: wind tunels around the country was it was hard to

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Speaker 1: UM to sync up. There they get discrepancies in the

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Speaker 1: same tests and different tunnels uh dry and figured out

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Speaker 1: that it might well be UM turbulence different kinds of

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Speaker 1: different levels of turbans of different tunnels, and so he

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Speaker 1: actually helps invent this thing called the hot wire anemometer,

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Speaker 1: which is the way to the measure the actual wind

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Speaker 1: velocity and direction and UH at various points in the

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Speaker 1: tunnel with extreme precision. And he proves with that hot

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Speaker 1: wire anomometer that most of the discrepancies were caused by

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Speaker 1: wind tunnels that had non non linear flow that that

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Speaker 1: were turbulence. So he sort of solves the hope on

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Speaker 1: with with wind tunnels being undependable UM and then goes

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Speaker 1: on to build these really high fidelity wind tunnels at

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Speaker 1: National Bureau of Standards that that he uses to prove

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Speaker 1: a bunch of things like, for example, the nineteen o

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Speaker 1: seven theory by the German uh Ludwig prontal Um, who

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Speaker 1: propose the theory about how bound you layer flows around wings.

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Speaker 1: And it was very controversial theory. But in these highly

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Speaker 1: accurate wind tunnels, Dryden proofs that the theory is actually true.

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Speaker 1: And that's that becomes a major benchmarkt aviation theory, and

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Speaker 1: and and puts Dryden's name on the map, at least

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Speaker 1: among people who were in the field of very datamics

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Speaker 1: around the world. Listening to build talk about huge Dryden's

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Speaker 1: accelerated academic achievement made me feel like a total under achiever,

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Speaker 1: probably most people, because those transcended normal human development. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I was an overachiever, and that's the

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Speaker 1: puts my like, was I lying down too much? What happened?

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Speaker 1: So while we ruminate on that, we're gonna pause and

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Speaker 1: have a word from one of our fantastic sponsors. So

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Speaker 1: now let's get back to NASA Chief historian Bill Berry

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Speaker 1: talking about huge riding, including some really surprising projects he

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Speaker 1: was involved in during World War Two. You referenced briefly

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Speaker 1: World War two and where Dryden had ended up by

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Speaker 1: the time that had all played out, But will you

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about how the Second World

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Speaker 1: War impacted his life. Well, World War two was a

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Speaker 1: dominant factor and just about anybody's life will live through it,

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Speaker 1: I suspect, but Dryden, being in a position of responsibility

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Speaker 1: for research work, was particularly involved and it made a

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Speaker 1: big impact on him. And he had subsequently a big

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Speaker 1: impact on scientific work in the war. Of course, many

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Speaker 1: people in the business, and you know, aeronautics business saw

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Speaker 1: you know what was coming. Uh. You know, Germans were

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Speaker 1: doing a lot of research and they were concerned about um,

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Speaker 1: you know, competing with the Germans in other countries. So UH,

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Speaker 1: research efforts in the US picked up quite a bit

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Speaker 1: in the late nineteen thirties and and Dryden was involved

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Speaker 1: in that. One of the projects he was involved in

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Speaker 1: at the National Bureau of Standards was designing the fins

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Speaker 1: that on the back of bombs that get dropped out

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Speaker 1: of airplanes. So you know, he helped standardized those fins

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Speaker 1: in that design was actually UH used throughout the war.

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Speaker 1: But more importantly, UH, the Office of Scientific Research and Development,

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Speaker 1: led by man of Our bush Um, saw Dryden as

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Speaker 1: a as a key person, not only as a person

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Speaker 1: who had, you know, good scientific chops, but also who

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Speaker 1: could manage a good project UM, and so they put

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Speaker 1: him in charge of this wacky idea to build the

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Speaker 1: bomb that could find its way to its target all

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Speaker 1: by itself. UM. They called it a guided glide bomb.

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Speaker 1: It was really the first sort of smart weapon that

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Speaker 1: was ever invented UM and it was known as bat

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Speaker 1: B a t UM and UM. It was designed would

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Speaker 1: use an analog computer to UH UM and a radar

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Speaker 1: return signal to to identify its target, UM, steer itself

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Speaker 1: to the target and make sure it hit the target. UM.

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Speaker 1: It took a couple of years, but but Dryden actually

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Speaker 1: led that project to completion and and and deployment and

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Speaker 1: actually used the bat UH particularly in the Pacific theater

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Speaker 1: in the last year the war. And it took out

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Speaker 1: a lot of Japanese ships as well as land targets.

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Speaker 1: So it had had a substantial impact on the war

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Speaker 1: and UM and contributed to dry And being recognized at

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Speaker 1: the end of the the war with the Medal of Freedom

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Speaker 1: and a number of other UM number of other things.

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Speaker 1: Another aspect of the war for Dryden was that he

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Speaker 1: was well known before this point by Theodore van Carmen

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Speaker 1: and and Carmen had gotten involved with the Army Air

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Speaker 1: Forces as UH an advisor to them and UH when

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Speaker 1: they set up the Air Force Army Air Force Scientific

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Speaker 1: Advisory Group, Carmen turns to Dryden and asked him to

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Speaker 1: be the deputy director of the group. And that group

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Speaker 1: UM gets called in at the end of World War

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Speaker 1: Two in a spring in n to go to Europe

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Speaker 1: and do an assessment of UM aeronautics research across Europe,

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Speaker 1: and Dryden winds up in a uniform but pretending he's

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Speaker 1: an Army Air Force colonel UM. Carmen gets to be

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Speaker 1: a general and UH and they wander around Europe debriefly

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Speaker 1: people like word of von Braun and other folks like

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Speaker 1: that about things. UH that the group took most of

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Speaker 1: a year to do his work. Dryden went on the

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Speaker 1: first trip to Europe and they came back to Washington

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Speaker 1: and UH he winds up being the editor of the

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Speaker 1: of the research project that's being done. UH. Their thirty

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Speaker 1: three had papers written UM. Dryden wrote several of them himself. UM.

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Speaker 1: And the report that comes out of this was entitled

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Speaker 1: Towards New Horizon and UM and it was really the

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Speaker 1: seminal study that laid out the plans for where not

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Speaker 1: just the Air Force, but I'd say it's in general

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Speaker 1: would go in scientific research in the post war era.

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Speaker 1: And it was hugely influential. And Dryden was you know,

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Speaker 1: not only there at the creation, but he helped right

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Speaker 1: right part of that report so critical and setting the

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Speaker 1: agenda for where um U S Aerospace reacherch would go

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Speaker 1: after the war. That is sort of an astonishing adventure

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Speaker 1: story that ties in with the science is so compelling. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like I said, I could talk forever. So if I'm

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Speaker 1: going to law and let me know, no way, are

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Speaker 1: you kidding? You're like a fond of knowledge. That's fantastic

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Speaker 1: and excellent. Uh. And so when did Dryden leave the

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Speaker 1: National Bureau of Standards and finally actually become part of

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Speaker 1: the n a c AH. Well, of course, at National

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Speaker 1: Bureer Standards, Chris Professor Ames is running the n a

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Speaker 1: c A, running a committee that runs the n a

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Speaker 1: c A for for most of this period, uh, in

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Speaker 1: the twenties and thirties and into the war. Um and

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Speaker 1: um so Dryden is actually doing a research for the

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Speaker 1: n a C that's you know, funded by the n

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Speaker 1: a c A. But he's doing at the National Bureau Standards,

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Speaker 1: so he's really been working for the n a c

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Speaker 1: for quite a lot. There are a number of really

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Speaker 1: important n a c A reports that were written during

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Speaker 1: that time that you know that Dryden was the author

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Speaker 1: of UM, but George lewis the guy who did who

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Speaker 1: ran the day to day operation of UM of the

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Speaker 1: n a c A. So he had aims running the

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Speaker 1: committee that oversaw the n a c A. But but

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Speaker 1: George lewis the guy ran it. Uh. George had been

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Speaker 1: a director basically from the beginning and and by the

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Speaker 1: end of World War Two had been the director for

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Speaker 1: twenty eight years. UM. He really basically worked himself to

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Speaker 1: death UM. And by the end of the war he's

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Speaker 1: he retires UM and around and dies within a year

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Speaker 1: of when he retires UM. And it was pretty clear

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Speaker 1: that they needed somebody, you know, of a similar character

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Speaker 1: and caliber to take over the place, and tried and

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Speaker 1: with sort of the clear choice for directors. So UH,

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Speaker 1: he becomes the director in n UM and UH based

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Speaker 1: on what he knew from that report that he wrote,

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Speaker 1: the Torrey New Horizons report. UH, he immediately immediately starts

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Speaker 1: changing the direction of the n a c A from

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Speaker 1: just being an aeronautics research agency to doing um basically

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Speaker 1: aerospace research. UM. In fact, the within about two weeks

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Speaker 1: and when he got on the job is one of

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Speaker 1: the first things he does is he gets on a

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Speaker 1: train and goes across the country to Edwards Air Force

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Speaker 1: Space or what's now Edwards Air Force BACE, UH to

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Speaker 1: visit the n a c A people that were out

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Speaker 1: there working on the X one project, the first plane

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Speaker 1: to go supersonic that was that was a joint project. UM.

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Speaker 1: You know, the Air Force and NAC worked on it together.

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Speaker 1: UM and the n a c A folks were out

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Speaker 1: there on temporary duty basically from uh their their normal

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Speaker 1: post at Langley Research Center in Virginia. UM him goes

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Speaker 1: out there to see how things are going, check out

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Speaker 1: the scene, and when he comes back, he signs in

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Speaker 1: order that basically makes uh that center those folks that

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Speaker 1: they're permanently assigned out in California and creates the Flight

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Speaker 1: High Speed Flight Research Center UM out in California. And

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Speaker 1: that's it's not the Armstrong Flight Research Center, but uh,

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Speaker 1: uh that thing. Date the formalization of that as A

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Speaker 1: as a as a major research facility for for the

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Speaker 1: n a c A and later NASA. Actually dates the

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Speaker 1: Dryden's first couple of weeks in office, so uh. And

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Speaker 1: after that, he basically, you know, without without any change

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Speaker 1: in the mandate of the n a c A starts

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Speaker 1: doing more and more rocket research and space related research,

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Speaker 1: so that by the time in the mid nineteen fifties,

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Speaker 1: um n AC is doing supersonic study, hypersonic work, and

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Speaker 1: work on reentry vehicles from space, um and early sorts

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Speaker 1: of things. He basically turned the n a c A

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Speaker 1: into a into a semi space agency without ever asking

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Speaker 1: anybody's permission to do so. But we alway have such

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Speaker 1: a debt of gratitude for that, exactly. It's astonishing. And

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Speaker 1: I'm glad that you brought him up because I hadn't

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Speaker 1: realized any of that until you had sent over some

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Speaker 1: some information about him, and I was like, wait, how

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Speaker 1: did how is nobody talking about this? So I'm so

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Speaker 1: glad you're here to do so. Um. When the n

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Speaker 1: a c A became NASA, how did Dryden's roll evolve

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Speaker 1: within the organization, Well, that's a really interesting one. Um.

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Speaker 1: Of course, in nineteen fifty seven, October four, the Soviets

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Speaker 1: launched the first satellite around the Earth. And that's kind

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Speaker 1: of a surprise to everybody, um, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: people will get upset about it. Um. Probably more troubling

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Speaker 1: is that within a month in early November seven and

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Speaker 1: launched a second satellite and it's got a dog on board. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And that got everybody's attention. Um. And suddenly there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of As happens here in Washington, d C. From

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Speaker 1: time to time, there's a lot of recrimination about who's

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Speaker 1: the blame for various things, and attention immediately falls on

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Speaker 1: the n a c A for not being more of

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Speaker 1: a space agency, even though they really weren't authorized to

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Speaker 1: be a space agency. Uh. So, so Drying kind of

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Speaker 1: get some blame for not anticipating uh spot nick, although

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Speaker 1: he actually had been because he had been redirecting the

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Speaker 1: agency all along. Um. But probably more importantly, um, Dryden

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Speaker 1: was kind of a straight shooter and um um. While

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00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 1: an introvert and quiet and polite um, they also made

432
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: it clear when he didn't agree with people necessarily, So

433
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,239
Speaker 1: apparently he didn't make many friends on Capitol Hill. When

434
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 1: they called him up there to complain to him about

435
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: about the job he did so UM, several members of

436
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 1: Congress made it known that they would not really like

437
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: Mr Dryden to be head of this new organization, whatever

438
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 1: it was going to be. In the eyes and our

439
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 1: administration had been considering just taking the n A c

440
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: A and turning it into NASA and leaving Dryden at

441
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: the head of it. But it was pretty clear that

442
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: politically that wasn't gonna fly, so they turned to UH,

443
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 1: a guy named Ti Keith Glennon. Dr. Glennon was at

444
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: that time he had he had done it, had a

445
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: number of higher government jobs, worked in atomic energy business UM,

446
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 1: and was the in president of Case Institute of Technology

447
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 1: what's what's now Case Western Reserve University. So UM he

448
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: was a good guy. UH. Interestingly enough, Glennon, when he

449
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 1: agreed to take the job, did it only on a

450
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: condition that Dryden stayed as his number two and UH.

451
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: Dryden actually was being offered a position as a professor

452
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: at m I T. And UH he turned down the

453
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: m I T job and agreed to stay because Glennon

454
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 1: asked him to, because he felt it was his duty

455
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: to stay on and help about and and I was

456
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 1: a why his choice by by Glennon, because Dryden knew

457
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: the nuts and bolts of the whole n a c

458
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 1: A organization and was really good at, you know, juggling

459
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: lots of things that were happening. And this new organization,

460
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: NASA was not only the n a c A, but

461
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: it had all these other pieces being bolted on, like

462
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and parts of the Army Ballistic

463
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: Missile Agency and the Naval Research Lab that all become

464
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: part of NASA UM and Dryden's the guy who made

465
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: all that sort of background stuff work. Webb was our

466
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 1: Glennon was uh, you know, the front guy who did

467
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 1: all the political wheeling and dealing and and managed the

468
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: political relations and inside the government and it was sort

469
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 1: of the spokesman for the agency. But but Dryden was

470
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,479
Speaker 1: the behind the scenes guy who you know, dealt with

471
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: the day to day operations of the organization and making

472
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: sure it actually functioned effectively. Interesting too that the of course,

473
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,360
Speaker 1: as an hour runs out, of his turn runs out,

474
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: and uh, President Kennedy gets elected, and Kennedy goes looking

475
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: for a new administrator for NASA, and he finally selects

476
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: Jim Webb and and Jim Webb becomes becomes a director

477
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 1: of nas and at the sixty one and he agrees

478
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: to become NASA administrator again only if Dryden stays on.

479
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: That was one of the conditions he applied to that

480
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: was that the Dryden's stay on as as his deputy

481
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 1: and and drying that at that point. Um. Shortly after that,

482
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 1: way in the fall of Dryden is actually diagnosed with

483
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 1: cancer um and uh. But he continues to work. In fact,

484
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: he worked until when he finally succumbed to the cancer.

485
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 1: Um and it worked. At that point, they were working

486
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: six day schedules because of the race to get to

487
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: the moon. After that point, um and uh. And so

488
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 1: Dryden was in in the office six days a week,

489
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: um and dealing with cancer and uh. Um a phenomenally

490
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: uh focused and driven person. Yeah, I had had no

491
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,959
Speaker 1: idea that really shaped the US aerospace program even before

492
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: the United States had an aerospace program. We're going to

493
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about the perhaps surprising aspect

494
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: of Dryden's personal life, but first let's pause for a

495
00:26:52,480 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: quick sponsor break. All right, let's cut to the conclusion

496
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: of my interview with NASA's chief historian Bill Berry and

497
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: we'll kick this segment off talking about Hugh Dryden's religious life,

498
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: and I imagine it will surprise people. You mentioned it

499
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: a little bit earlier at the beginning of our talk

500
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: that Dryden was religious, but I bet it would probably

501
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: surprise people to know that he actually held a Methodist

502
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: preacher's license. Um. Will you talk a little bit about

503
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: his religious background and how that factored into his life

504
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: and career. Yeah, it's a really interesting aspect that I

505
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 1: think people these days would find very surprising. But in fact, uh,

506
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: Dryden Dryden's faith was really a central part of his life. Um. Um,

507
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 1: you know he was. In fact, his name Hugh Hugh Laddimer.

508
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 1: Hugh Latimer was the name of his first middle name

509
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: were the names of a Methodist preacher in a town

510
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: where his paths were when he was born, and so

511
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: he was actually named after another Methodist minister. Um. So

512
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: uh as an important partner his young life. He met

513
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: his wife Libby at a church event and uh and

514
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 1: his uh, you know, with his faith and and stuff

515
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: was really important. I mentioned that he was working six

516
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: day weeks at that NASA, particularly in in the early sixties. Uh.

517
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: In fact, unlike God of the Bible. He didn't rest

518
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: on the seventh Day. He actually spent a lot of

519
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: Sundays out preaching at local churches. So he had, you know,

520
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 1: work at NASA six days a week, and on Sundays

521
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: he'd go preach. And uh, I actually found us out

522
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: look going through his letters. Um. He donated his his

523
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: personal papers to Johns Hopkins University. Uh. So I was

524
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: up at Johns Hopkins looking for something else about Dryden's

525
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: work on our first agreement with the Soviet Union. Actually

526
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: Dryden was the key negotiator of that um and uh

527
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: and I kept writting across these these letters that he

528
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: had sent to various churches sending back their checks because

529
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: he'd go give a preach a sermon. Did send him

530
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: a check for being a guest preacher, and hit send

531
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: it back saying, you know, I'm sorry, I really can't

532
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: accept this money. Um. And if they if they returned

533
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: to check to him again. He had donated to a

534
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: charity and sent him a notes I had donated to

535
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: this charity, thank you very much, but I really can't

536
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: accept the money. So what what an interesting guy? And

537
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: he was a guy who didn't see religious faith and

538
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: sciences is incompatible at all. And that's a really interesting

539
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: perspective these days. It is. And I when't you mentioned

540
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: that he was working six days a week and then

541
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: basically working on the seventh by preaching. That's a grueling

542
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: schedule for someone who is not ill, so for someone

543
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: that was battling cancer like it's a testament to his

544
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: incredible drive. He really the more I read about about

545
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: Hugh dried the more I I feel completely completely inadequate,

546
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: because because here's a guy who's you know, uh, sick

547
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: with canted and dying and he's working seven days a

548
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: week basically and uh and keeping the whole thing together

549
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: just unbelievable and and a brilliant mind and a nice

550
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: guy on top of that from all all reports. Uh

551
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: I actually um his long time secretary. Um, we have

552
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: an oral history from his his longtime secretary, and she

553
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: writes about about Dryden and uh, uh you know what

554
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: a nice guy was, and how polite he was to everybody,

555
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: how nice he was to her. Uh and he even

556
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: writes about the NASA headquarters. There's a train track that

557
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: runs through south Southwest DC and and from Dryden's office

558
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: you could see the train track that went through and Um,

559
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: one time, the Ringling Brothers Barnard Bailey circus train is

560
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: going through DC on his track and he's has a

561
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: meeting with with some senior official according to a secretary,

562
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: and he stops the meeting, steps out and grabs his

563
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: secretary and says, come on in here, you gotta see this,

564
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: And they basically stopped the whole meetings, Like I watched

565
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: the circus train go by. But yeah, I mean exactly,

566
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: I mean, he comes Crosses is just the sweetest guy,

567
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: um you'd ever know. He is almost one of those

568
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: people that if someone were to write him as a

569
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: fictional character, no one would believe. They would be like, no,

570
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: that's too much, it's too much. I have to have been.

571
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: I sometimes wondered myself about that, But the more I

572
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: read about it, then the more more research I do it,

573
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: and the more I find the fascinating and interesting things

574
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: like like those stories, you kind of referenced what a

575
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: prescient thinker he was in many ways, and how he

576
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: could see way ahead of what was going on in

577
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: terms of current and contemporary science. How do you think

578
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: Hugh Dryden would view today's NASA and its achievements since

579
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: he did miss all of the big sort of news

580
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: headline type events. Well, Tryden didn't live long enough to

581
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: see the X fifteen fly, which that's a part of

582
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:52,959
Speaker 1: the story I haven't even touched on yet. But he

583
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: was crucial to starting the X fifteen project and and

584
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: and actually getting the Air Force in the Navy to

585
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: come up with the money to make the sifting project happened. Uh.

586
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: But uh, but he'd actually get to see the X

587
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: fifteen fly, And of course he didn't didn't last long

588
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: enough to see the Apollo program reached the Moon. But

589
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: I sort of imagine um that Dryden would respond to

590
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: um the current state of NASA with sort of his

591
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: the right enigmatic smile that you see in pictures of

592
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: him quite frequently. Uh, where he'd I think he'd be

593
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: very proud of of what NASA had accomplished. Um, of

594
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: course he had attribute that the accomplishments of other people, probably,

595
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: but uh, I think it'd be very proud of what happened.

596
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: But it also be I think a little sad that that,

597
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: you know, we didn't continue on at the same pace

598
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: that that we were in the sixties, Because it's clear

599
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: from speeches that he gave and uh, and his writings

600
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,479
Speaker 1: that he really thought that the world had reached an

601
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: inflection point with the space race and that that we

602
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: were going to go to as a as a you

603
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: know race, you know, humans would get out to the

604
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: Moon and then get onto Mars and uh, and that

605
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: we would, you know, by this point in time, probably

606
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: have a um, you know, much more robust economy out

607
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: in space. Uh. But again, I think he'd probably have

608
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: that that sort of rice smile because it also, having

609
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: been a bureaucrat most of his life, realized that, you know,

610
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: things don't always turn out the way you plan and

611
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: uh and sometimes uh, you know, you you know, you

612
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: take what you get and you're happy with with those things.

613
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: So I think it'd be Um, I think it'd be

614
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: pretty happy with how things turned out. I wonder how

615
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: he would react to really how much of a legacy

616
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: he's left, even though things don't always have his name

617
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: on them. Clearly a lot of what has happened in

618
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: the time since he's been gone has been due to

619
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: the work he was doing when he was alive. Yeah,

620
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: but I think that never really mattered to him. Yeah, So,

621
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: I mean, so I think it could probably say, yeah, well.

622
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: In fact, in some ways, I think you'd probably internally

623
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: see it as a success. You know, all these great

624
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: things happened, I helped make them happen, and nobody noticed. That.

625
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: Isn't that good? So we really cannot thank Bill Burry

626
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: enough for sharing his time and his knowledge with us.

627
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 1: I am so thankful that he wrote to us, because

628
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: had he not, maybe never would have come back to

629
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 1: Hugh Dryden. And there's really no getting around what an

630
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: important part of NASA his story is really is, and

631
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: also just what a fascinating person he is in history. Yeah,

632
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: so I'm so thankful and I feel so lucky that

633
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: we got to have him on the show. Do you

634
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 1: also have some listener mail for us? I do, and

635
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 1: it's about roses. Yeah. This is from our listener, MICHAELA.

636
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 1: I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. She writes, Dear Holly

637
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: and Tracy, I thoroughly enjoyed your recent episode on the

638
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: history of roses. Not having a green thumb myself, I've

639
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: always found rose is beautiful, but never knew much about them.

640
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 1: This is my asside. Roses are shockingly easy to grow.

641
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: I don't think I have a green thumb and I

642
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: have a lot of roses growing in my house. That

643
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: being said, I recently traveled to Portland, Oregon, and had

644
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: the opportunity to visit the International Rose Test Garden there.

645
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: If you're not familiar with it, I highly recommend a visit.

646
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,240
Speaker 1: It has more than six and fifty varieties roses spanning

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00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: over four acres, and while there, I was fascinated to

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00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: learn that the rose garden was established during World War

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00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: One as a safe haven for European hybrid roses that

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00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 1: were endangered by the bombings during the war. I've copied

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00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: a paragraph from the Parks Department website below and that

652
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: reads quote In nineteen fifteen, Jesse, a Curry rose hobbyist

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00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: and Sunday editor of the Oregon Journal, convinced city officials

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00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: to institute a rose test garden to serve as a

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00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: safe haven during World War One for hybrid roses grown

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00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: in Europe. Rose lovers feared that these unique plants would

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00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: be destroyed in the bombings. The Park Bureau approved the

658
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: idea in nineteen seventeen, and by early nineteen eighteen, hybridist

659
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: from England began to send roses in Ninete. Florence Holmes girky.

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00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly. The landscape

661
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: architect for the City of Portland was charged with designing

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00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 1: the International Rose Test Garden and the Amphitheater. The garden

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00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: was dedicated in June nine four. Currie was appointed as

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00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: the garden's first rose curator and served in that capacity

665
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: until his death in nineteen seven. Uh And she goes

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00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: on to say the garden has plenty of historically significant roses,

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00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: including an entire section of roses that were mentioned in

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00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: Shakespeare's plays and named after his characters. I was delighted

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00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: to discover that it is also home to some thoroughly

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00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: modern creations, including roses that smell like grape soda, bubblegum,

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00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: and creamsicle. There is a centennial celebration this summer, so

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00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: if any of your listeners are in the area, I

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00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: encourage them to visit, as it is a truly special place.

674
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: An admission is free. I want everybody to go to that,

675
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: and I want them to take me with. I have

676
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 1: been to it once, but it was too early in

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00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: the year for anything to be blooming, and it was

678
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: one of those or we just stopped in just in case. Uh,

679
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 1: and it just in case it was it was too early.

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00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: I had no idea it existed, and now I have

681
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: a place that I have to go in Oregon. Yeah,

682
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: so that's pretty exciting. So if you would like to

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00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: write to us, you can do so at History Podcast

684
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com. You can also find

685
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: us across the spectrum of social media as Missed in History.

686
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: That means on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, on Pinterest,

687
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: and on tumbler. Uh. You can also visit us at

688
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: our homepage, which is missed in History dot com, where

689
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: you will find every single episode of the show that's

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00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: ever existed, as well as show notes for any of

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00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: the episodes that Tracy and I have worked on together.

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00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: We have no consolidated show notes into the show page,

693
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 1: so it's a little simpler to navigate. Uh. You can

694
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: also go to our parents site, how stuff works dot

695
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: com and type in anything you wish in the search bar,

696
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: including space history, or roses or anything else. You'll come

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00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: up with all kinds of stuff to look at. So

698
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,439
Speaker 1: come and visit us at missed in History dot com

699
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: and how stuff Works dot com. For more on this

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00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, visit howstoff works dot com,