1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart three D 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 1: audio for full exposure, listen with headphones. Do I really 3 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: need to tell you who Chris Carter is. He's the 4 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: creator of The X Files, which is one of the 5 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 1: iconic TV shows and probably the best known piece of 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,319 Speaker 1: popular culture to deal with the paranormal and issues of 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: skepticism and belief. I talked to him in December of 8 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: a quick note Chris mentions Bud Hopkins, David Jacobs, and 9 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: John Mack. The end of season one of Strange Arrivals 10 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: looks at their work, particularly Hopkins. In addition, I interviewed 11 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: Carol Rainey, who is Bud hopkins ex wife and former 12 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: research partner, about him and his research. That interview is 13 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: a bonus episode from season one. So with that in mind, 14 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: here's my chat with Chris Carter. Could you introduce yourself 15 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: Chris Carter, best known as creator of The X Files. 16 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about the origin of the 17 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: X Files. How did you come up with that idea 18 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: or who did you work with? I had an idea 19 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: way back in the nighties. There was a show on 20 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: that I loved when I was a kid called Cold Check. 21 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: The night Stalker. It was the scariest thing I've ever 22 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: seen on TV. So I thought, there's nothing scary on TV. 23 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: Why don't I try to do a show that is 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: as scary as that one. I pitched the idea to 25 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: Brandon Chartikoff when I was at NBC, and he passed 26 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: on it. And then I was hired by twenty Century 27 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: Fox to create TV shows, and I pitched the same 28 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: idea to Peter Roth, and he said he had been 29 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: thinking about the same thing. So I sat down and 30 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: came up with the characters of Moldern Scully FBI agents. 31 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: I was inspired, especially you can see Scully's red hair 32 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: by Silence of the Lambs. That was an early inspiration. 33 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: So I came up with these two characters, and I 34 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: kind of turned the tables on what would be the 35 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: stereotypical believer in skeptic Maiden Molder the male, the believer 36 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: in Scully the female the skeptic. I wanted to make 37 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: her not only a doctor, but a scientist, so she 38 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: could refute Molders claims with her hard science. So you 39 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: had this idea for a series that would be scary, 40 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: and how did you know? How did UFOs come to 41 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: be serve a central part of that. There were two 42 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: things I've been reading about UFOs and alien abductions. But 43 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: also I was given, just by chance, a survey called 44 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: the Roper Survey, which was done by Dr John Mack, 45 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: who any UFO afficionado will know well, and it said 46 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 1: that millions of Americans believed in the UFO phenomenon, some 47 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: millions less believed they had actually seen a UFO, some 48 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: millions less believed they had had contact, but that there 49 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: was interest in the phenomenon. And so I thought the 50 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: first thing and I would like to do is play 51 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: with that in a personal way, making molder Sister an abducte, 52 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: which is what his entry was into the world of 53 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: the paranormal. What what kind of source material you're looking at? 54 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: And yet you were, as you were thinking about the 55 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 1: particularly the UFO component of the X Files, I had 56 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: kind of three go to guys was Dr John mac, 57 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: David Jacobs, and Bud Hopkins. Those were the three people 58 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: that I read mostly and I had I really developed 59 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: my uh sense of all things UFOs and and abductions 60 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: through reading their books. Yeah, I would say that those 61 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: are my go to guys. You know, I know that 62 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: those three were really sort of involved in in the 63 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: sort of abduction movement, I guess in the in the 64 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: eighties and nineties. But it seems like there's also these 65 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: other components two the X files UFO sort of mythos um, 66 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: one of which is, you know, the government conspiracy. The 67 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: government knows more than they're letting on. They're doing a 68 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: lot to try and cover it up. What were some 69 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: of the source material or the inspiration or whatever for that, 70 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 1: you know, that's part of the literature. But I've always 71 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: been interested in conspiracies, I think because I was a 72 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: child of the Watergate era. You know, I was a 73 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 1: disbeliever in what our government was telling us and a 74 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: believer that they were keeping things from us. So they 75 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: fit in perfect with the UFO literature, which is all 76 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: about government, you know, black budget, secret operations and all 77 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: the reasons there are for the government to keep the 78 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: truth about extraterrestrial life from the American public, and those 79 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: would you know, things that are you know, scientific, cultural, religious, 80 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: It would upend a lot of the institutions, uh in society. 81 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: And when you were looking at I guess particularly the 82 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: Jacobs Hopkins mac stuff, like what was your what was 83 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: your assessment of what they were coming up with. Did 84 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: this seem more like sort of ideas for fictional storylines, 85 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: or did it at the time seem sort of compelling 86 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: as a possible um description of of things that were 87 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: actually happening. And I asked partly because you know, I've 88 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: talked to um people have made, you know, certainly less 89 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: influential things about UFOs, and you know, for the large part, 90 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: they seem to be really looking at sort of these 91 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: fictional representations as a way of getting out something that 92 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: they feel is at some level, you know, true or 93 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: at least like highly possibly true. And I was kind 94 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: of interested because it does seem like other than other 95 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: you know, there's other things like if you're doing a 96 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 1: Western and you're in you're and you're doing research into 97 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: what was it like in the in the Western the 98 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 1: eteen eighties and nineties or or what have you, that 99 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: there's certain sort of you know, kind of undisputable facts 100 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: or things that are I think, are you quote unquote 101 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: true to whereas most of the ting about UFOs really 102 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: seems in dispute. So it seems like that's a slightly 103 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: different thing in figuring out what you want to use 104 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: and how you want to use it. Am I Am 105 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: I thinking too much about this? No? I mean I 106 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: think even the believers, guys like David Jacobs and Bud 107 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: Hopkins and John Matt they doubted certain accounts, and they 108 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: doubted certain individuals, and they doubted themselves sometimes. But when 109 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: three smart people do the kind of research that they 110 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: did and come up with as a bottom line, I 111 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: believe in the phenomenon. It's powerful, smart people doing investigative 112 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: science on the subject. That was for me that was very, 113 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: very powerful. They were the ones to help paint the 114 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: picture that became the backdrop for the X Files Alien Mythology. 115 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: Could you talk a little bit about the development of 116 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: the mythology as as a series progress, because um, it 117 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: sounds like you didn't have that altogether when the series started. No. 118 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: I had what I would consider to be the kind 119 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: of foundation of the mythology that was based in things 120 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: that anybody could read about alien abductions and kind of 121 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: classic scoopmark stars, the triangular shapes, it kind of shape 122 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: that appeared on Scully's back and the pilot episode. So 123 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: I had the ideas that I had taken from all 124 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: of the accumulated science and background on alien abductions, and 125 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: I created a world with the episode. Actually, if you 126 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: watch the first and second episode of The X Files 127 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: and the season finale, which is called The erlen Meyer Flask, 128 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: you will really get a foundational view of the X 129 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 1: Files mythology. Now, there's this idea that the government has 130 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: been keeping all this stuff quiet secret for their own purposes, 131 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 1: and that one day somebody will get them to disclose, 132 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: or there will be reason to disclose the truth. I 133 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: think that's where the X Files mythology took flight from 134 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: the accepted Expiles mythology, and so we were imagining the 135 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: world before disclosure and modern Scully as the people seeking 136 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: to learn the truth. So you mentioned the Arlan Meyer Flask, 137 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: which I watched recently with my daughter. You know that 138 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: there's so many sort of iconic figures, I guess, and 139 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: things that happen. You know, the smoking Man, he serve 140 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: an iconic figure now, and there's a there's a deep 141 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: throat figure, and you know the erlan Meyer Flask. There's 142 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: they go to a warehouse sort of out of the way, 143 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: sort of rundown warehouse and find, you know, what appeared 144 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: to be Men Underwater being developed, or what have you. 145 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: What sort of assumptions were you making about people's understanding 146 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: of these issues or thoughts about these issues that kind 147 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: of went in into creating the storyline. You know, I'm 148 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: thinking also to U two episodes that morgana. Wong did. 149 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: I'll preface that by saying, when we started out the show, 150 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: I told this staff that I didn't want to I 151 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: didn't want to see aliens for five years. I wanted 152 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: to keep them in the shadows and the deep background. 153 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: That lasted all of about a year. Glenn Morgan and 154 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: James Wong did two great episodes, one called e B 155 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: and another one called Little Green Men, and we actually 156 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: did see an alien and Little Green Men, which was 157 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: the season opener for season two. So we took a 158 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: lot of what people knew about aliens or believed about 159 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: aliens and UFOs, extraterrestrials and the government conspiracy. And there 160 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: was a certain fascination with Roswell with the area one 161 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: and I would call them not tropes, but they were 162 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: part of the X file. I'm sorry, the extraterrestrial alien 163 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: abduction UFO lore. You know, I think Bolder, Molder and 164 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: Scully are I think of the iconic duos in uh 165 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: in television history, at least in what I've watched. I 166 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: think I think it's them in Kirk and Spock are 167 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: sort of closest to my heart, and I think a 168 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: lot of people's hearts. You know, there's clearly this interesting 169 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: play between you know, skepticism and belief, And how did 170 00:11:54,840 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: you see the arc across the seasons as far their 171 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: relationship and they're edging each other towards their own beliefs. 172 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: How do you see that that playing out? Well? I 173 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: can speak to the structure of the way we did 174 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: the seasons. We did I think six mythology episodes typically 175 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: per season, three two parters actually, and that kind of 176 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: became our formula. The way Molder and Scully approached the other, 177 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: typically h sixteen to nineteen cases was by taking positions, 178 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: by taking hard edged science versus a obdurate and determined 179 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: belief in the paranormal on Molder side. And it became 180 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: kind of competitive, and it became a really a long 181 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: nine year flirtation between the two characters and a seduction 182 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 1: of sorts. It's funny when you are selling your position, 183 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: and this is something I always find interesting with Mulder 184 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 1: and Scully. When you are selling your beliefs in your 185 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: position and your your side to your to the other 186 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: side to the opposition, which would if Mueller is selling 187 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: to Scully, there's something seductive about it. It just became 188 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: kind of the nature of the show. So when it ends, 189 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: do you feel like Mulder has been more brought towards 190 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: skepticism or Scully has been brought more towards belief or 191 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: do you think they fight to a fight to a standstill? Well, 192 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: you know, someone said, how can Scully go for nine 193 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,839 Speaker 1: years and still be a disbeliever with all she's seen? 194 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: And so we played with that a little bit. We 195 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: actually had her witness things and she came to the 196 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: other side and Mulder went to skepticism. So we did 197 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: play with that idea through the course of this show. 198 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: But it's a fair argument that Scully uh seeing so 199 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: much that she could had no answers for because science 200 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: does not have answers for these things, that she would 201 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: come to mother's side more readily than Mud would go 202 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: to her side. When we first started this show, there 203 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: was something interesting that happened. Fox had bought my pitch. 204 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: They had liked my outline. They had liked the pilot script. 205 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: We had begun casting and we had filmed the pilot. 206 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: We had shown the pilot to the network. They were 207 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: very happy with it, but they wanted me to put 208 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: a disclaimer up before the show, saying that for the viewer, 209 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: that these are all based on actual events. It was 210 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: as if we were creating a kind of documentary in 211 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: the network's mind. And I went along with it. But 212 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: then it's like, for the pilot episode, I went along 213 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: with it, but then it's like, I realized, that's not 214 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: what the show is. The show is fictionalized, scripted storytelling 215 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: vehicle for these characters Molder and Scully looking for the truth. 216 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: And I said to them, you know, they wanted to 217 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: wrap up the episodes at the end, kind of in 218 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: a neat bow, with an explanation for what Malder and 219 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: Scully had seen. And I said, that's exactly what you 220 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: don't want. You don't want to have the answers. You 221 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: want to be left with wonder, you want to be 222 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: left with ah, you want to be left with your 223 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: own opinions at the end. And it took me a 224 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: real hard sales pitch to get them to understand that. Yeah, 225 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: well that seems critical. Uh. You know, I think I 226 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: feel like that's that's such a big part of the 227 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: X Files, and I think part of what really captured 228 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: people's imagination, even people talking about it today. Is there 229 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: something that you're trying to get across, Especially in the 230 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: in the Mythos episodes, I was trying to create a 231 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: sense of awe and the idea that science doesn't have 232 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: all the answers, and that religion doesn't have all the answers, 233 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: and that there are things beyond the pale. I liked 234 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: all that, but I also have to say I come 235 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: at this from more Scully side than Molder's side, with 236 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: a science bias, and it's I really have a kind 237 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: of prove it to me philosophy. And so really it 238 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: was me. The thesis was my own troubled perspective on 239 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: what is true and what is not. I want to 240 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: see an alien, I want to see a UFO. These 241 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: are things that I want to believe in. But thus 242 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: the poster on Molder's wall, I want to have my 243 00:16:54,960 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: hopes confirmed. I want that experience, uh, and I'm longing 244 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: for it as his Molder, But I'm also doubtful of 245 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: it that I will ever have it, which is skilling. 246 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,719 Speaker 1: And so you know, in the course of you know, 247 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: the research for the X files, and I'm sure you 248 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: must have had zillions and sillions of people getting in 249 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: touch with you about their experiences, how did you find 250 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: or did you find that your thoughts about UFOs changed? 251 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: You know, people ask me if I'm a believer or 252 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: a skeptic, and I say, I'm a skeptic, but I 253 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: have to say that with a asterisk because I've met 254 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: so many people who tell so many believable stories, stories 255 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: that they absolutely believe in that who am I to 256 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: doubt them? So while I am skeptical because there isn't 257 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: a lot of hard, hard evidence, There isn't a lot 258 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 1: of come helling testimony that leads to the heart evidence. 259 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 1: Uh there is, there are, just there are a lot 260 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: of personal accounts that one can take with a grain 261 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: of salt. So you didn't find I mean, did you 262 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: ever feel like you were led on to something that 263 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: that most people or just about everybody wouldn't have known 264 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 1: in the course of this stuff. It clearly wasn't something 265 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: that would have changed your mind. I didn't find anything 266 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: that necessarily changed my mind. There was something interesting that 267 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: I did that I had a chance to do, and 268 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: and I had written about regression hypnosis, and this is 269 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: the way Bud Hopkins worked and John mac worked, taking 270 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: people back through their memories, maybe removing the screen memories 271 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 1: that the aliens had implanted them with. And I actually 272 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: got to sit in on a regression hypnosis went. I 273 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: flew to Boston while the show was being produced and 274 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 1: sat in on one of these events. And it was 275 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: powerful to be sitting next to someone who is going 276 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: through the abduction experience. In this case, it was someone 277 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: who was taken from a campground. So who am I 278 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: to say that it's not true when it seemed so 279 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: vivid and powerful in this in this person's mind. Can 280 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about the dynamic of the 281 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: of the writing of the X Files and and you 282 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: know the other things that kind of went into create 283 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,959 Speaker 1: eating the storyline and sort of the look and feel. 284 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: They are very very strong. Yeah. I was really lucky 285 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: to hire two teams of smart guys, and that would 286 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: be people have mentioned already. Glenn Morgan and James Wong 287 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: were a writing team, uh, and then a writing team 288 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: of Howard Gordon and Alex Gonza, who were also too 289 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: smart guys who went on to create Homeland together. So 290 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: I had these capable people, and the way we began 291 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: to work was we would gather together and people would 292 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: pitch their ideas for episodes, and if the ideas were good, 293 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: and they almost always were, that person would go and 294 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: create a plot, so basically go to the drawing board 295 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: and create the plot for the story. They would bring 296 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: that plot, which was done on three buy five cards 297 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: on a bulletin board, to the group and we would 298 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: go through it and listen, and once again I got 299 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: very lucky. People had very good ideas of how to 300 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 1: develop the modern Scully storyline through horror, thriller, suspense, and 301 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: paranormal episodes. So the X Files from the very beginning 302 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: was not just going to be a UFO alien show. 303 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 1: It was going to be more than that. And uh, 304 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: I had actually created a marketing package before any of 305 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: these people came on, when I turned the pilot and 306 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 1: originally into twenty Century Fox, spelling out what the show was. 307 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: So it just happened that I was able to pair 308 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: with the right people to bring the idea of making 309 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: it a horror show, a suspense show, a thriller, what 310 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: have you. That it became really three fifths of the 311 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: time it was something other than alien and aliens and UFOs. 312 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: I'm really interested in this idea of working with other 313 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: people on something that's essentially, you know, your brainchild. Was 314 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: everybody sort of on the same page, particularly with Moulder 315 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: and Scully and how they would react to certain things 316 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: or was askedly that that was hashed out over the 317 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: course of of meetings. You know, I have to say 318 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: that the characters were they developed over time, that people 319 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: added to them, that people created and created nuances for 320 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: the characters. But the idea that they were the believer 321 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: in the skeptic and their personalities were really came from 322 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: the pilot. And so while everyone added to the creation 323 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: in the most amazing ways, and the show wouldn't be 324 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 1: the same without those additions. Modern Scully, I think, or 325 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: Modern Scully from the beginning, and they just uh their 326 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 1: characters and their stories and their backgrounds and their attitudes 327 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 1: changed with time because that's the nature of producing a 328 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 1: television show, right. Interesting, So what is it about UFOs 329 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: that you think makes for good and compelling TV or movies? 330 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting because I think people look up 331 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: into the sky at night and wonder if the truth 332 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: is out there, if the if there are other civilizations. 333 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: So it has a kind of human component to it, 334 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: and the idea that the aliens have in many cases 335 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: humanoid qualities, and that they actually seem to have some 336 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: steak and humanity and they have some either good or 337 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: bad purposes for being year it's our fear of the 338 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: other that is natural, and in this case, I think 339 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: it's the fear of a another that has either a 340 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: good or evil intent. Have you been have you been 341 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: following what's been going on recently, you know, in the 342 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: last couple of years, the revelations that the Pentagon continued 343 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: to have a quote unquote UFO program up until very recently. 344 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: You know, you have Marco Rubio, Senator Marco Rubio asking 345 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: the Department of Defense to give him unclassified report of 346 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: what they've been doing and what they potentially know. Do 347 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: you have thoughts? Yeah? I do. I mean Obama asked 348 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: the Defense Department for any files. Hillary Clinton, who with 349 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: John Fodesta on her staff, we're avid believers, or I 350 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: should say want to believers, and the phenomenon were had 351 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: even said during our campaign that they were going to 352 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: get to the bottom of it. So you know, this 353 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: has been going on for quite a while. People want 354 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: to know. I think Bill Clinton wanted to know, and 355 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: so Marco Rubio is just the latest in a long line. 356 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: I think. I thought it was interesting that Harry Reid 357 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: basically did have a secret alien project UFO project that 358 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: he financed with taxpayer dollars, which was not I was 359 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: not unsurprised. How do you how do you look at 360 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: the legacy of the X Files. That's a big question, 361 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: you know. I hope that it was nine years of 362 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: quality entertainment. Two put a big stamp on the whole thing. 363 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 1: But I think that what as you say, modern skelling 364 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: the iconic duo, I think this show was always While 365 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: it was about a group of or I should say, 366 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: a file cabinet full of spiles of the unknown, it 367 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: really was a show about Molder and Scully in their relationship. 368 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: So I think the legacy is those two characters. It's 369 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: funny the way Molder and Scully now kind of rolls 370 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: off the tongue and you know exactly what you know 371 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: that means the believer in the skeptic and that I 372 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: would take you know, that name Molder, which isn't the 373 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 1: most poetic, malifluous name, and parrot with Scully and somehow 374 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: Mulder and Scully sounds as if the two characters have 375 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: existed forever. Yeah. Absolutely, What if I missed? Is are 376 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: there other? Is there something else that people should know? Now? 377 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 1: You know, it's funny when you when I think about 378 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: the show, I think about you know, it was always 379 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: surprising to me. I was mentioning the writers and what 380 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: people would bring in was always interesting to me and 381 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: things I hadn't imagined, takes on the show that I 382 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: haven't imagined. But once those scripts were written, you are 383 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: our first audience was always the crew, and you knew 384 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: that if the crew liked an episode, it was a 385 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: good episode. They were our toughest critics and they really 386 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: invested themselves in the show because they liked the show. 387 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: But I think about taking a script and handing it 388 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: over to the people like the production designers and seeing 389 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: what they came up with, what their visions were, and 390 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: it seems like every episode they always came up with 391 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: something that none of us quite imagined, or a way 392 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: to do something that none of us quite imagined. I 393 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: think the pilot episode was done by Michael Namursky, and 394 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: then the five seasons. The next five seasons were Graham Murray, 395 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: Uh these people, Uh she speak to a case in point, 396 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 1: Dwayne Berry. What Graham Murray came up with for an 397 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 1: examination table of this character? Dwayne Berry, surrounded by Gray 398 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: Aliens was production design costume, said Deck. You know, all 399 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: these people came together and created something that was better 400 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: than I ever imagined. Yeah, did you did you know 401 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: at the time, well you're working at this on this 402 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: that this would have like a very long life beyond 403 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: its initial run. No, there are so many pitfalls that 404 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: are you try to avoid through the process, and they 405 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: are They could be one bad note from a studio 406 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: executive could change the course of the show, much like 407 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: I was. You know, there was something that Jillian Anderson 408 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: became pregnant during the first season of the show, and 409 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: we scrambled because we didn't know what to do, how 410 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: to uh if she was going to be pregnant for 411 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: the whole first part of the second season, how we 412 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: were going to do Molder and Scully. And we figured 413 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: out a clever way to do that, a way that 414 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: actually played into the larger storyline. But I actually had 415 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: a network executive say to me, you've got to get 416 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: rid of her, and he was, you know, in no 417 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: uncertain terms, And so you have to fight against that. 418 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: You know, you can't establish these two characters and then 419 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: just break them up because he uh doesn't want a 420 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: pregnant woman working on the show. It worked out that 421 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: we were able to film Scully and I think it 422 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: was episode five of season two, and she is taken 423 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: away by it. I just mentioned Dwyane Berry. She is 424 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: abducted by this character, Dwayne Berry, which leads to what 425 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: is supposed by Mother as an alien abduction. You know, 426 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: there's actually one other thing I'd like to say about Sure. 427 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: They talked about its origins, and I talked about Silence 428 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: Phil Lambs, and you know, it was loomed huge in 429 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: my mind. I loved the movie, and it's really that 430 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: I was inspired by that Jodie Foster character to a 431 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: large part. But I think that also and this actually 432 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: plays out in an episode called Fire on the series 433 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: UH in the first season, where Malder is paired with 434 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: the British woman who refers to Sherlock Holmes. I read everything. 435 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:32,959 Speaker 1: I read all of Sherlock Holmes as a kid, and 436 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: I loved that kind of storytelling. I loved Sherlock and 437 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: and Watson's interplay, and I think that is a big 438 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: for me, was a big part of the dynamic between 439 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: Mother and Scully as well. People are gonna be really 440 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: excited to hear this as I was excited to hear 441 00:30:51,680 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: it myself. Thanks Kobe, Okay, thanks so much, Chris. Strange 442 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: Arrivals is a production of I Heart three D Audio 443 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey. This episode was 444 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: written and hosted by Toby Ball and produced by Miranda 445 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: Hawkins and Josh Say, with executive producers Alex Williams, Matt Frederick, 446 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: and Aaron Mankey. Learn more about Strange Rivals over at 447 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: Grimm and Mild dot com, and find more podcasts from 448 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio by visiting the I Heart Radio app, 449 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.