WEBVTT - Reading, Writing, and Racism 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.560 Good morning, peeps, and a welcome to woke F Daily 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:18.439 with me your girl, Danielle Moody recording from the Long 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.360 Island Bunker. You know, I often say to you that 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:23.280 you need to take a break so that you do 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:26.680 not have a breakdown. And with all of the compacted 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:30.560 crises that we are dealing with at this time and 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:35.400 making the march to midterms, there never seems like the 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:40.200 right time to take a break. But I say that 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:43.879 you have to make that time. And so for me, 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:47.360 dear friends here on woke F, I am going to 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.760 be taking a much needed vacation so that I can 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:54.840 rest and recharge as we head into what I believe 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.400 is going to be one of the craziest falls we've 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:03.360 ever seen. I have left you with eight amazing episodes 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:07.559 that we have recorded back in twenty twenty one with 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:14.160 some of the most thoughtful, engaging and insightful commentary that 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:19.319 looks at our politics, our spiritual nature, our emotional well being, 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:23.640 and a look inside frankly with some of the guests 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:27.920 that we are bringing to all of you. These conversations 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:33.320 have been heard by our amazing Patreon supporters who get 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:38.760 video episodes every single day because of their belief and 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:43.319 financial support of woke F throughout the years, and so 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:46.720 I'm really excited to bring all of you across all 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:49.600 the platforms that you listen to woke F daily on 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:54.480 these episodes and these interviews that I think will be 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:57.440 enticing to all of you. They hit on all of 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:02.600 the major topics that we consistently discuss here on woke F, 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:08.680 from racism to gender inequality, to police misconduct to wealth inequality, 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:11.600 which my God and the need and the need and 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:16.360 the need upmost for spiritual connection and wellness practices that 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:22.560 allow us to successfully maneuver all of the things that 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.359 have been thrown at us over the past couple of years. 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.040 And so, friends, while I will be out from the show, 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.640 I will not be out of sight for the next 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:35.120 several days, and so you can continue to follow me 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:39.280 on Instagram and on Twitter at D two Cents, D 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.639 E two c E n TF. Of course, I will 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.520 be dropping in with my two cents and you can 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.520 check me out on TikTok, where I'm sure certain that 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.040 I will drop a few videos in the next couple 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:55.880 of days, and there you can find me at Danielle 0:02:56.040 --> 0:03:01.160 Moody Underscore. I hope that you all enjoy these next 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:05.080 fantastic episodes that we have. Do drop your thoughts in 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.079 the comments section, do hit me up in the socials. 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:10.960 Just don't draw my attention to anything that is terrible 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:15.000 because I'm taking a break from the news. But dear friends, 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:17.960 I really do hope that you enjoy these next eight 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:22.600 episodes and I will see you with brand new episodes 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:32.400 after Labor Day. Indisputable with Doctor rashad Ricci is one 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.440 of the latest shows on the TYT Network and also 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:39.000 the fastest growing news show in America. On his show, 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:43.120 Doctor Ricci plays no games regarding policy, delivering a heavy 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.480 dose of fact based truth and penetrating analysis on all 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:51.160 the top news stories, focusing on racism, criminal and social justice, politics, 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:55.600 police brutality, Karens, and much more. Listeners can also expect 0:03:55.600 --> 0:04:00.480 interviews with fascinating guests, political leaders, commentators, and even biery 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.920 debates with conservatives on a wide range of policy topics 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:07.720 in the Bullpen. It is an indisputable fact that you 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:11.440 will love this show. Listen to Indisputable with Doctor rashad 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:15.760 Ricci on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.320 If you like what you hear. Be sure to subscribe 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:27.560 so you never miss a new episode. Hey, I'm David. 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:32.640 Plots of Slates Political Gabfest. As another election season accelerates, 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:35.240 it can be tricky to sort through all the noise 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.360 and the news. Each week, on the Gapfest, John Dickerson, 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.640 Emily Bathlona and I decipher the headlines, break down the races, 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:45.159 and tell you what issues really matter. We do not 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.600 always agree, We definitely do not always agree, but we 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:51.840 always deliver thoughtful debate and we always have a good time. 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:58.240 So subscribe to Slates Political Gapfest, new episodes every Thursday, folks. 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:02.000 I am so excited to be joined on woke F 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.080 Daily with and I don't want to tell you this, 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:09.080 m Brieu. I am a former educator, and so I 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:14.240 am super excited about about this conversation with doctor Bree Pickhauer, 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:19.520 Associate professor at Montclair State University and the author of Reading, 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:26.159 Writing and Racism, Disrupting Whiteness in Teacher, Education and the Classroom. 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:29.120 Brie I'm so excited to have you here because you know, 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:33.440 education has always been a part of the work that 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:35.800 I do, whether it was when I was teaching in 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:40.479 the classroom. I was a first and second grade teacher 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:45.479 and with children with special needs as well as general education. 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.279 When I went to the Hill, I did so because 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:52.520 I wanted to work on education policy. Now, as my 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.760 life has unfolded, I still consider myself an educator. I 0:05:55.880 --> 0:06:00.800 just do it through different mediums. This book, Reading, Writing, 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:05.679 and Racism. Talk to me about it and why now 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.960 was the time for this kind of book? Well, thank 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.560 you so much, and thank you for having me. I 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:17.200 don't think now was the time. I've been doing this 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:22.720 work around racism and education for twenty years. This just 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.920 so happened to be the time that this book came 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:32.080 out of me. But I think that it, unfortunately is timely, 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:39.320 because there's an awareness among white people, particularly as white 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:44.840 educators and white people around beginning to recognize and do 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:49.080 work on the way that they're enacting racism that they 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:51.479 may not have been aware of or we may not 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.800 have been aware of previously. But that doesn't mean that 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:59.040 that it wasn't there. It just means that suddenly an 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.600 interest a little bit of a light bulb after the 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:07.279 summer and after January sixth, it just so happened that 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:11.120 the book is timely, But it wasn't meant to be. 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:16.320 You know, I went through a My master's program for 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:21.320 early childhood education was a very unique program because it 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:28.760 was about unpacking your own racism, your own discrimination, understanding 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.800 how you were taught and what not to bring into 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:36.200 the classroom as a teacher. And you know, my professors 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.160 were so intentional about this program. It's called the U 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:43.160 Team program at George Mason University, and they were so 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:51.720 intent on how we unlearn discrimination, how we unlearn white supremacy. 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.320 And it's something that I have often said is taught right, 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:59.400 like we teach white supremacy. And so you know what 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:03.040 what kind of of I would ask, like what kind 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:07.680 of pushback do you get when you're telling people like, oh, 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:10.240 we're we're we're doing this work, but we have to 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:14.200 like we have to undo this work in our classrooms. 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.240 Like it isn't just it isn't just a you know, 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:21.520 an exercise in like growth in our democracy, but it's like, 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:26.360 how do we do that? Well, I'm so glad to 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:28.760 hear that that was your experience, because it certainly isn't 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.280 the norm in teacher education programs. I think most teacher 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:37.120 educators consider themselves specialists in the subject area that they're 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:42.080 preparing people to teach. So I'm elementary education, my specialty 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:44.720 of social study, so that's what I'm supposed to prepare 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:48.880 people to do. Instead of thinking about that we are 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:52.240 preparing a whole person that is going to be sitting 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.439 in front of a whole room full of people. And 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.480 that what teachers teach is not just their subject matter. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.600 We teach our beliefs. And so if we're not giving 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.520 our future teachers an opportunity to unpack what it is 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:11.800 that they believe, particularly around race, then they're going to 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:17.880 go in and teach mainstream, dominant racial ideology to their students. 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:20.400 And that's what the first part of my book is about, 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:24.480 is the kind of racist curriculum that is going viral 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:29.040 right now that is sort of seen as one off 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:34.400 bad teachers or bad apples, but that really point to 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:40.080 the permanence of racism and education because, like most of society, 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:44.280 teachers have not necessarily done that deep work to understand 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:47.760 they're the way that they think about race, the way 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:53.000 that they think about difference. You know, I've often believed, 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:57.000 you know, we did such a grave disservice to everyone, 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:01.240 not like not just teachers when we say and oh, 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:05.320 you know, be blind to race, right, like, let's let's 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:08.640 let's ignore it, let's tolerate it, right. I I grew 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:12.439 up in a in a schooling system that was ninety 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:16.080 six percent white. I was the only black kid all 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:19.880 most of the time in my in my classes, and 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:26.040 that wasn't acknowledged and by like, by the not acknowledging it, 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:30.679 it was like it was it was, you know, a 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:34.200 way to basically say you need to assimilate, right, like 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:37.560 you are supposed to assimilate to be like everybody else, 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.840 and that the uniqueness and the experiences that you're bringing 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:46.000 into this place, we don't care. Yeah. Yeah, And it's 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:49.520 such a you know for teachers that sort of with 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:53.360 pride have that I don't see a color. I see blue, purple, yellow. 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:57.760 You know, it's really based in a deficit notion of 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:00.480 people of color when you hear white teacher say that, 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:05.080 because what they're what they're saying is if I acknowledge 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:09.600 your race, then there's something negative that I'm doing. There's 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:12.080 some reason why I'm not supposed to notice it. And 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.280 if I'm not supposed to notice it, it must be 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.439 because there's something wrong with it, and so there's this 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:20.760 fear that in actual really what I think is underneath 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.240 that is a fear of being called racist. You know, 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:28.040 that's a fear underneath a lot of white teachers, and 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:35.439 so they espouse this race evasive kind of mentality. I've 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:38.040 been moving away from color blind because I'm trying to 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:40.439 move away, I know, and I actually when you just 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.360 I know, and when you just said race a vase, 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.760 I'm like, oh, that's a better that's a better term. Right. Yeah, 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:49.680 we've been working on that one in the field for 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.640 a while. Um, But I think that it's it's really 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:59.719 what's under underneath that is deficit understandings about race. I 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.000 a student once who was like, well, it's not that 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.800 I don't want to acknowledge their race, but I also, 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:08.640 you know, I don't want to be making assumptions. It's like, 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:12.480 what is the assumption you're afraid that you're making. What 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.400 was the assumption that they were afraid that they were making. Well, 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.679 it was actually very confusing when she actually started to 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.440 talk about when she started to get into it, she 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.920 had a lot of confusion around race period. I Mean, 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:27.320 there's so much right beneath the surface you know, she 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.480 started talking about how, well, if she gets a tan, 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:35.720 then she's darker than some of her students, and so 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.160 I think she was wondering if that if she's still white. 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:43.920 I mean, it was Look, this stuff is unexamined and 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:47.800 it's wet, and so if we're not giving them a 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.880 place to talk about this, then the classroom is the 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.640 place where they're experimenting. And we see the results of 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:58.360 what that looks like when we see these pieces of 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.719 curriculum that are around it. You know, as recent as 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:06.079 three days ago, there was a curriculum out of Wisconsin 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:10.840 around um. I think that the words were something like that, 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:15.520 something about an escaped slave yep, and the punt and 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.960 how would you how I could? I like, for the 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:23.720 life of me, Bree, when these stories come out, I'm like, 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.600 how how I know that teachers sit down and they 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.720 plan out their week, they plan out their unit, and 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:34.280 I'm thinking to myself, how how did something like that happen? 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.800 And that's where this book came out of, really was 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.160 I was just I started collecting these examples like this 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:45.360 because I have students who don't white, students who don't 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.920 necessarily believe that racism is still a problem at least 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:56.400 prety fifth president. I'm like pre insurrection and you know, 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.040 the sort of post racial. So I had started collecting 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:04.679 these examples show no, this actually is a problem. And 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:08.280 so after some point it it got beyond the shock 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:12.160 value and the disturbing value of them, and I really 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:17.240 started to question, you know, these aren't anomalies, These aren't 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:21.160 going anywhere, and so what is their function? How are 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:27.520 these examples actually functioning to a maintain white supremacy and 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:34.680 be teach the next generation dominant ideology without them necessarily 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:39.240 even knowing the history. How is it still teaching the 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.920 mainstream ideas around grace to the next generation. How is 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.640 it reinvesting in whiteness? And so that's really where the 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:51.560 book started, was to analyze these examples to move past 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:55.680 the like disturbing shock value, to see that these actually 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:58.360 do have a purpose, and their purpose is to maintain 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:03.920 racial hierarchies. What do your students say when you present 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:08.800 that truth? Because they you know, what I want to 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:13.160 say is that I don't necessarily believe that all white 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:18.920 teachers think one like, think about upholding white supremacy, right, 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.560 but it's almost you are upholding something that you are 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:27.520 willingly ignoring And so how when your face like, literally, 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:29.680 what I feel like your work does is it holds 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.720 up a mirror. Right, which your work does is hold 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:36.920 up a mirror and has us stop instead of looking 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:40.720 at these stories as these one offs, right, look at 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.720 the pattern and look at what it's producing. Right, Like 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:48.080 you you you teach this, So how do you like 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.360 when you hold up the mirror? What is the response 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:56.160 to you to them to saying like, by doing this work, 0:15:56.280 --> 0:16:02.680 you are upholding this incredible, believe violent system. Yeah, well, 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:06.520 it depends and I found that it mainly depends on 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.920 not what someone comes into the program believing, but really 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:15.080 how open are they to having this conversation. So there 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:20.120 are definitely students that respond with resistance, and I think that, 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.440 you know, over the twenty years that I've been doing this, 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:24.960 I've learned how to navigate that a little bit better 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:29.800 so that I see less of that. But there is resistance. 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:33.880 Sometimes there's like an openness to it. Some of them 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:39.640 really start questioning and doing that deep examination, and then 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.240 some of them are just like about it, you know, 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:44.880 as soon as they hear it, they're like, yes, I 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.480 get this, what's my responsibility, now what do I need 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:52.640 to do differently? So it's really a range and and 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:55.360 it's been a surprise and an interest to me that 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.440 it isn't about how much are you already thinking about 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.080 this coming in? It's really how reflective are you willing 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:06.879 to be? Do you find that there is a difference 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:12.399 in reception to this based on is it elementary or 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.240 high school or middle school teachers? Like, is there is 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:20.040 there a variance there? Well, I'm an elementary person at heart, 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:24.000 but I codirect a program now that's K twelve, and 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:28.840 I don't think so. I mean, I think that high 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:33.919 school teachers generally tend to come in with a little 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:39.640 bit more understanding of the intellectual nature of education, whereas 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:45.240 elementaries teachers often come in because they love children, and 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:50.280 so it takes a little bit more to push to say, okay, 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:54.080 but it's not just about like picking apples and making 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.560 apple sauce, and like we're actually going to engage young 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.640 people in these critical conversations. They can do, they can 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:04.320 handle it, whereas I think high school teachers know that 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:08.320 that's what they signed up for. Um. But you know, 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:12.040 it really depends on the person and the person's willingness 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:18.360 to go deep. You know, it's funny you're now remembering, um, 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:21.879 the few white women that were in my master's of 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.560 education program, and they were really unhappy with the way 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:29.199 that it was being taught, right, Like, they because of 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:31.800 literally what you just said. I want to become an 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:35.040 early childhood educator because I love children and I want, 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.520 you know, to to play and I want to create 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.840 like this playful you know environment for them, Like why 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.800 are you talking to me about race and racism? Right? 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.879 And like it was this it was this feeling that 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:52.159 they didn't want to be told to feel to like, 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.960 they didn't want to be perceived as bad, right, and 0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:58.679 so it was like an order for me not to 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:01.679 be perceived as bad, not to be perceived as racist, 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:04.200 then I have to block all of this out, yes, 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:07.359 and I just like people, right, Like that was all 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.959 you know, that was kind of the pushback and you know, 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:16.560 and the field the sentiment that the professors would would provide. 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:20.679 It's like, right, but you're teaching all kinds of people. 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.320 They're not they're not going to stay children forever, like 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:29.560 they're growing into adults, adults, right, Like you're training adults 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:32.720 like you know, like and I and I don't think 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:37.040 I think it was very much lost on them. Yeah, 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.000 And I think that there's also this idea that if 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.800 I don't veer into this sort of anti racist social 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:48.840 justice curriculum, then I'm just being neutral, like yes and not. 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.080 And so for a lot of elementary teachers, they're scared 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.720 to sort of, you know, teach a more critical history, 0:19:56.359 --> 0:20:00.800 even you know, the quintessential examples Christopher columb Right. And 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:05.800 so if I teach the teach the perspective of the 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:10.560 Tino indigenous people, then I'm being political. But if I 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:13.200 teach the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria, then 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:17.280 I'm being neutral. But actually you're not. You're you're glorifying 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:20.960 the history of polonization and you're ignoring the genocide and 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:25.240 the violence of what Columbus actually did and what he 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:29.159 set the stage for. And so I think teachers just 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:33.480 think that that maintaining the status quo means that I'm 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:37.119 not being political, But it's extra and it's all and 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:41.280 it's all inherently political exactly right, like the way the 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.439 way that the way that history has been set up, 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:47.640 the way that we teach is inherently political. Who you 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:51.560 decide to say is you know, even in music class, 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.000 I can remember, like, who you are anointing as the 0:20:55.080 --> 0:21:00.200 music that children have to learn, right, Like is white men. 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:04.280 So it's like and the icons that you're saying are 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:08.120 these inventors and what have you? Are white men? So 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:11.080 it's like, so, how do you break through? How do 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:13.840 you break through that? Like? That is it is all 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:16.800 pull because the purpose I have said this forever, the 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:20.720 purpose of our public education system is to uphold white supremacy. 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:24.040 Like that that is the purpose of it. What do 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:28.320 you want because I think that your book, it's it's 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.719 not just for teachers, it's for parents, right, it's for 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:35.720 anybody that that interacts with kids, right, Like, how do 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:38.800 you how do you break this system? What are the 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:43.199 tools you know that if a parent is or you know, 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:46.280 a teacher obviously is picking up this book, what are 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:50.200 some of the tools that they can get to help 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:52.520 to help start to help start the process. Because it 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:55.040 is a process. It's not going to be one and done. 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:56.720 It's not like I read this book and now I'm 0:21:56.720 --> 0:22:00.000 an anti No, it is a it's a practice. Yeah, 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:03.000 And I think that the one of the strengths of 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:05.840 the books is that it uses a framework that is 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:09.080 really very popular and anti racism work now, which is 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:16.000 the four Eyes that look at how individual, interpersonal m sorry, individual, internalized, 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:22.479 institutional and ideological oppression work together. And so while it 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:25.800 may seem from the book that an individual can take 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:31.040 things away and reflect on their own socialization around race, 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:34.359 the solution is not an individual one, because, as you 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:40.720 said that, it's the institution of education that's upholding white supremacy, 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:43.959 and teachers are very unique because they are right in 0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:47.080 the matrix. They're right in the middle of all four 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:53.400 of these systems of oppression. They're upholding institutional racism through 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:57.480 their own individual racism. And so we can't just try 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:00.760 to change individual teachers, even though it seems like that's 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:04.520 what I'm doing. But I'm arguing that the institution of 0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:10.399 deeper education, the institution of education that's providing professional development 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:15.000 and training for educators, needs to shift to do this 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:19.600 deep examination work because that's the only way that we're 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:23.160 actually going to see changes and not only curriculum, but 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:28.640 in relationships in classroom, community, and school policy. Is when 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:33.560 everyone is doing that work, we're no longer working to 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:41.880 uphold racist systems, we might be working together to dismantle them, right, 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:45.480 and that can't happen if on large scales we're not 0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:49.639 supporting that kind of that kind of exercise. You know, 0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:52.600 I want to ask you another question before I let 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:55.120 you go, which is that you know it's a Black 0:23:55.200 --> 0:24:01.040 History month, right, and usually you know, in amal in 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:06.240 normal times, in schools all over the country plastered with 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:10.880 Martin Luther King posters and Rosa parks and this stent 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:15.120 and the other thing, there is an intention, an intentionality, 0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:18.800 even if a superficial one around this month. What do 0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:24.000 you think about black history being like a curriculum for 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:29.360 February but then not incorporated at all the other eleven 0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:35.400 months of the year. Yeah, for kids they have like 0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:39.080 it makes I mean it could It should be a yes, 0:24:39.240 --> 0:24:42.480 aunt right, it should be. It's incorporated throughout the year, 0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:45.200 and we're going to pay special attention to it now, 0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:47.960 but not that we're going to segregate it into this 0:24:48.040 --> 0:24:53.000 one month. And again, if teachers are not doing this 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:56.800 kind of examination, white teachers are not doing this examination, 0:24:57.520 --> 0:25:02.119 it's still going to be taught in a deficit, problematic 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:07.080 way that focuses a only on I saw a post 0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:10.120 the other day on Facebook that was chadow slavery isn't 0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:14.600 a chadow slavery is not black history. It's white history, right, 0:25:14.840 --> 0:25:21.120 but it's taught as black history, right damn. And so 0:25:21.280 --> 0:25:26.240 all of the ways in which white people have oppressed, marginalized, 0:25:26.640 --> 0:25:31.159 and and done all of the atrocities that we have 0:25:31.320 --> 0:25:38.600 done to black people is white history, black resistance, black invention, 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:44.600 black joy. That's Black history. And that's not how it's framed. 0:25:44.600 --> 0:25:49.000 That's not how it's taught in schools, um and it's 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:52.080 and it's when it is taught, it's often being taught 0:25:52.320 --> 0:25:57.359 through that deficit dominant ideology. So you know, Rosa Parks 0:25:57.440 --> 0:26:02.119 was tired, or we're going to Martin Luther King, how 0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:07.880 to tream? Isn't that nice? Not about his anti capitalists, 0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:13.080 anti war, you know, speaking truth to the white moderate. 0:26:13.320 --> 0:26:16.640 That's not what's getting taught during Black History when teachers 0:26:16.680 --> 0:26:19.120 haven't examined that. So that's why I'm saying we can't 0:26:19.160 --> 0:26:23.200 tinker with curriculum. We need to do deep excavation to 0:26:23.320 --> 0:26:28.280 teachers racial ideology, and that's what will change curriculum. You 0:26:28.359 --> 0:26:32.480 are doing the Lord's work, Bree, You really are. I 0:26:32.520 --> 0:26:37.040 appreciate you so much. Folks. The book is reading, writing 0:26:37.080 --> 0:26:42.760 and racism, disrupting whiteness in teacher education and the classroom. Bree, 0:26:42.800 --> 0:26:45.480 you have got to come back to wokaf because this 0:26:46.800 --> 0:26:51.440 conversation could go on for the longest, because I think 0:26:51.440 --> 0:26:54.000 that it is the most important work to do. Like, 0:26:54.080 --> 0:26:58.800 if we're to break with the abuse and cycle of 0:26:58.840 --> 0:27:02.280 white supremacy, then you have to start with education. It 0:27:02.440 --> 0:27:06.000 is the only place to start. Well, it was my 0:27:06.119 --> 0:27:14.760 pleasure anytime. Thank you so much for having me as always, 0:27:14.840 --> 0:27:18.639 dear friends. Power to the people and to all the people. Power, 0:27:19.040 --> 0:27:23.120 get woke and stay woke as fuck. See after Labor Day.