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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and a welcome to woke F Daily

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Speaker 1: with me your girl, Danielle Moody recording from the Long

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Speaker 1: Island Bunker. You know, I often say to you that

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Speaker 1: you need to take a break so that you do

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Speaker 1: not have a breakdown. And with all of the compacted

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Speaker 1: crises that we are dealing with at this time and

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Speaker 1: making the march to midterms, there never seems like the

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Speaker 1: right time to take a break. But I say that

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Speaker 1: you have to make that time. And so for me,

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Speaker 1: dear friends here on woke F, I am going to

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Speaker 1: be taking a much needed vacation so that I can

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Speaker 1: rest and recharge as we head into what I believe

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Speaker 1: is going to be one of the craziest falls we've

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Speaker 1: ever seen. I have left you with eight amazing episodes

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Speaker 1: that we have recorded back in twenty twenty one with

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Speaker 1: some of the most thoughtful, engaging and insightful commentary that

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Speaker 1: looks at our politics, our spiritual nature, our emotional well being,

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Speaker 1: and a look inside frankly with some of the guests

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Speaker 1: that we are bringing to all of you. These conversations

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Speaker 1: have been heard by our amazing Patreon supporters who get

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Speaker 1: video episodes every single day because of their belief and

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Speaker 1: financial support of woke F throughout the years, and so

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to bring all of you across all

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Speaker 1: the platforms that you listen to woke F daily on

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Speaker 1: these episodes and these interviews that I think will be

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Speaker 1: enticing to all of you. They hit on all of

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Speaker 1: the major topics that we consistently discuss here on woke F,

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Speaker 1: from racism to gender inequality, to police misconduct to wealth inequality,

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Speaker 1: which my God and the need and the need and

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Speaker 1: the need upmost for spiritual connection and wellness practices that

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Speaker 1: allow us to successfully maneuver all of the things that

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Speaker 1: have been thrown at us over the past couple of years.

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Speaker 1: And so, friends, while I will be out from the show,

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Speaker 1: I will not be out of sight for the next

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Speaker 1: several days, and so you can continue to follow me

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Speaker 1: on Instagram and on Twitter at D two Cents, D

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Speaker 1: E two c E n TF. Of course, I will

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Speaker 1: be dropping in with my two cents and you can

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Speaker 1: check me out on TikTok, where I'm sure certain that

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Speaker 1: I will drop a few videos in the next couple

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Speaker 1: of days, and there you can find me at Danielle

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Speaker 1: Moody Underscore. I hope that you all enjoy these next

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Speaker 1: fantastic episodes that we have. Do drop your thoughts in

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Speaker 1: the comments section, do hit me up in the socials.

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Speaker 1: Just don't draw my attention to anything that is terrible

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Speaker 1: because I'm taking a break from the news. But dear friends,

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Speaker 1: I really do hope that you enjoy these next eight

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Speaker 1: episodes and I will see you with brand new episodes

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Speaker 1: after Labor Day. Indisputable with Doctor rashad Ricci is one

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Speaker 1: of the latest shows on the TYT Network and also

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Speaker 1: the fastest growing news show in America. On his show,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Ricci plays no games regarding policy, delivering a heavy

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Speaker 1: dose of fact based truth and penetrating analysis on all

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Speaker 1: the top news stories, focusing on racism, criminal and social justice, politics,

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Speaker 1: police brutality, Karens, and much more. Listeners can also expect

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Speaker 1: interviews with fascinating guests, political leaders, commentators, and even biery

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Speaker 1: debates with conservatives on a wide range of policy topics

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Speaker 1: in the Bullpen. It is an indisputable fact that you

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Speaker 1: will love this show. Listen to Indisputable with Doctor rashad

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Speaker 1: Ricci on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: If you like what you hear. Be sure to subscribe

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Speaker 1: so you never miss a new episode. Hey, I'm David.

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Speaker 1: Plots of Slates Political Gabfest. As another election season accelerates,

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Speaker 1: it can be tricky to sort through all the noise

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Speaker 1: and the news. Each week, on the Gapfest, John Dickerson,

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Speaker 1: Emily Bathlona and I decipher the headlines, break down the races,

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Speaker 1: and tell you what issues really matter. We do not

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Speaker 1: always agree, We definitely do not always agree, but we

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Speaker 1: always deliver thoughtful debate and we always have a good time.

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Speaker 1: So subscribe to Slates Political Gapfest, new episodes every Thursday, folks.

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Speaker 1: I am so excited to be joined on woke F

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Speaker 1: Daily with and I don't want to tell you this,

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Speaker 1: m Brieu. I am a former educator, and so I

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Speaker 1: am super excited about about this conversation with doctor Bree Pickhauer,

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Speaker 1: Associate professor at Montclair State University and the author of Reading,

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Speaker 1: Writing and Racism, Disrupting Whiteness in Teacher, Education and the Classroom.

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Speaker 1: Brie I'm so excited to have you here because you know,

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Speaker 1: education has always been a part of the work that

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Speaker 1: I do, whether it was when I was teaching in

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Speaker 1: the classroom. I was a first and second grade teacher

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Speaker 1: and with children with special needs as well as general education.

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Speaker 1: When I went to the Hill, I did so because

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Speaker 1: I wanted to work on education policy. Now, as my

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Speaker 1: life has unfolded, I still consider myself an educator. I

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Speaker 1: just do it through different mediums. This book, Reading, Writing,

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Speaker 1: and Racism. Talk to me about it and why now

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Speaker 1: was the time for this kind of book? Well, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much, and thank you for having me. I

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Speaker 1: don't think now was the time. I've been doing this

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Speaker 1: work around racism and education for twenty years. This just

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Speaker 1: so happened to be the time that this book came

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Speaker 1: out of me. But I think that it, unfortunately is timely,

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Speaker 1: because there's an awareness among white people, particularly as white

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Speaker 1: educators and white people around beginning to recognize and do

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Speaker 1: work on the way that they're enacting racism that they

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Speaker 1: may not have been aware of or we may not

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Speaker 1: have been aware of previously. But that doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't there. It just means that suddenly an

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Speaker 1: interest a little bit of a light bulb after the

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Speaker 1: summer and after January sixth, it just so happened that

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Speaker 1: the book is timely, But it wasn't meant to be.

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Speaker 1: You know, I went through a My master's program for

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Speaker 1: early childhood education was a very unique program because it

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Speaker 1: was about unpacking your own racism, your own discrimination, understanding

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Speaker 1: how you were taught and what not to bring into

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Speaker 1: the classroom as a teacher. And you know, my professors

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Speaker 1: were so intentional about this program. It's called the U

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Speaker 1: Team program at George Mason University, and they were so

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Speaker 1: intent on how we unlearn discrimination, how we unlearn white supremacy.

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Speaker 1: And it's something that I have often said is taught right,

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Speaker 1: like we teach white supremacy. And so you know what

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Speaker 1: what kind of of I would ask, like what kind

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Speaker 1: of pushback do you get when you're telling people like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we're we're we're doing this work, but we have to

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Speaker 1: like we have to undo this work in our classrooms.

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Speaker 1: Like it isn't just it isn't just a you know,

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Speaker 1: an exercise in like growth in our democracy, but it's like,

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Speaker 1: how do we do that? Well, I'm so glad to

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Speaker 1: hear that that was your experience, because it certainly isn't

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Speaker 1: the norm in teacher education programs. I think most teacher

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Speaker 1: educators consider themselves specialists in the subject area that they're

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Speaker 1: preparing people to teach. So I'm elementary education, my specialty

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Speaker 1: of social study, so that's what I'm supposed to prepare

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Speaker 1: people to do. Instead of thinking about that we are

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Speaker 1: preparing a whole person that is going to be sitting

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Speaker 1: in front of a whole room full of people. And

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Speaker 1: that what teachers teach is not just their subject matter.

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Speaker 1: We teach our beliefs. And so if we're not giving

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Speaker 1: our future teachers an opportunity to unpack what it is

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Speaker 1: that they believe, particularly around race, then they're going to

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Speaker 1: go in and teach mainstream, dominant racial ideology to their students.

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Speaker 1: And that's what the first part of my book is about,

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Speaker 1: is the kind of racist curriculum that is going viral

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Speaker 1: right now that is sort of seen as one off

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Speaker 1: bad teachers or bad apples, but that really point to

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Speaker 1: the permanence of racism and education because, like most of society,

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Speaker 1: teachers have not necessarily done that deep work to understand

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Speaker 1: they're the way that they think about race, the way

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Speaker 1: that they think about difference. You know, I've often believed,

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Speaker 1: you know, we did such a grave disservice to everyone,

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Speaker 1: not like not just teachers when we say and oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, be blind to race, right, like, let's let's

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Speaker 1: let's ignore it, let's tolerate it, right. I I grew

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Speaker 1: up in a in a schooling system that was ninety

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Speaker 1: six percent white. I was the only black kid all

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Speaker 1: most of the time in my in my classes, and

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Speaker 1: that wasn't acknowledged and by like, by the not acknowledging it,

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Speaker 1: it was like it was it was, you know, a

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Speaker 1: way to basically say you need to assimilate, right, like

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Speaker 1: you are supposed to assimilate to be like everybody else,

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Speaker 1: and that the uniqueness and the experiences that you're bringing

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Speaker 1: into this place, we don't care. Yeah. Yeah, And it's

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Speaker 1: such a you know for teachers that sort of with

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Speaker 1: pride have that I don't see a color. I see blue, purple, yellow.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's really based in a deficit notion of

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Speaker 1: people of color when you hear white teacher say that,

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Speaker 1: because what they're what they're saying is if I acknowledge

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Speaker 1: your race, then there's something negative that I'm doing. There's

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Speaker 1: some reason why I'm not supposed to notice it. And

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Speaker 1: if I'm not supposed to notice it, it must be

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Speaker 1: because there's something wrong with it, and so there's this

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Speaker 1: fear that in actual really what I think is underneath

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Speaker 1: that is a fear of being called racist. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's a fear underneath a lot of white teachers, and

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Speaker 1: so they espouse this race evasive kind of mentality. I've

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Speaker 1: been moving away from color blind because I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: move away, I know, and I actually when you just

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Speaker 1: I know, and when you just said race a vase,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, that's a better that's a better term. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we've been working on that one in the field for

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Speaker 1: a while. Um, But I think that it's it's really

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Speaker 1: what's under underneath that is deficit understandings about race. I

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Speaker 1: a student once who was like, well, it's not that

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Speaker 1: I don't want to acknowledge their race, but I also,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to be making assumptions. It's like,

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Speaker 1: what is the assumption you're afraid that you're making. What

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Speaker 1: was the assumption that they were afraid that they were making. Well,

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Speaker 1: it was actually very confusing when she actually started to

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Speaker 1: talk about when she started to get into it, she

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Speaker 1: had a lot of confusion around race period. I Mean,

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Speaker 1: there's so much right beneath the surface you know, she

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Speaker 1: started talking about how, well, if she gets a tan,

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Speaker 1: then she's darker than some of her students, and so

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Speaker 1: I think she was wondering if that if she's still white.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was Look, this stuff is unexamined and

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Speaker 1: it's wet, and so if we're not giving them a

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Speaker 1: place to talk about this, then the classroom is the

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Speaker 1: place where they're experimenting. And we see the results of

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Speaker 1: what that looks like when we see these pieces of

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Speaker 1: curriculum that are around it. You know, as recent as

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Speaker 1: three days ago, there was a curriculum out of Wisconsin

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Speaker 1: around um. I think that the words were something like that,

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Speaker 1: something about an escaped slave yep, and the punt and

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Speaker 1: how would you how I could? I like, for the

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Speaker 1: life of me, Bree, when these stories come out, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: how how I know that teachers sit down and they

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Speaker 1: plan out their week, they plan out their unit, and

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking to myself, how how did something like that happen?

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Speaker 1: And that's where this book came out of, really was

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Speaker 1: I was just I started collecting these examples like this

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Speaker 1: because I have students who don't white, students who don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily believe that racism is still a problem at least

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Speaker 1: prety fifth president. I'm like pre insurrection and you know,

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Speaker 1: the sort of post racial. So I had started collecting

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Speaker 1: these examples show no, this actually is a problem. And

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Speaker 1: so after some point it it got beyond the shock

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Speaker 1: value and the disturbing value of them, and I really

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Speaker 1: started to question, you know, these aren't anomalies, These aren't

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Speaker 1: going anywhere, and so what is their function? How are

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Speaker 1: these examples actually functioning to a maintain white supremacy and

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Speaker 1: be teach the next generation dominant ideology without them necessarily

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Speaker 1: even knowing the history. How is it still teaching the

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Speaker 1: mainstream ideas around grace to the next generation. How is

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Speaker 1: it reinvesting in whiteness? And so that's really where the

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Speaker 1: book started, was to analyze these examples to move past

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Speaker 1: the like disturbing shock value, to see that these actually

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Speaker 1: do have a purpose, and their purpose is to maintain

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Speaker 1: racial hierarchies. What do your students say when you present

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Speaker 1: that truth? Because they you know, what I want to

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Speaker 1: say is that I don't necessarily believe that all white

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Speaker 1: teachers think one like, think about upholding white supremacy, right,

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Speaker 1: but it's almost you are upholding something that you are

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Speaker 1: willingly ignoring And so how when your face like, literally,

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Speaker 1: what I feel like your work does is it holds

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Speaker 1: up a mirror. Right, which your work does is hold

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Speaker 1: up a mirror and has us stop instead of looking

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Speaker 1: at these stories as these one offs, right, look at

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Speaker 1: the pattern and look at what it's producing. Right, Like

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Speaker 1: you you you teach this, So how do you like

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Speaker 1: when you hold up the mirror? What is the response

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Speaker 1: to you to them to saying like, by doing this work,

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Speaker 1: you are upholding this incredible, believe violent system. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: it depends and I found that it mainly depends on

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Speaker 1: not what someone comes into the program believing, but really

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Speaker 1: how open are they to having this conversation. So there

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Speaker 1: are definitely students that respond with resistance, and I think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, over the twenty years that I've been doing this,

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Speaker 1: I've learned how to navigate that a little bit better

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Speaker 1: so that I see less of that. But there is resistance.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes there's like an openness to it. Some of them

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Speaker 1: really start questioning and doing that deep examination, and then

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Speaker 1: some of them are just like about it, you know,

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Speaker 1: as soon as they hear it, they're like, yes, I

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Speaker 1: get this, what's my responsibility, now what do I need

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Speaker 1: to do differently? So it's really a range and and

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Speaker 1: it's been a surprise and an interest to me that

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Speaker 1: it isn't about how much are you already thinking about

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Speaker 1: this coming in? It's really how reflective are you willing

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Speaker 1: to be? Do you find that there is a difference

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Speaker 1: in reception to this based on is it elementary or

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Speaker 1: high school or middle school teachers? Like, is there is

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Speaker 1: there a variance there? Well, I'm an elementary person at heart,

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Speaker 1: but I codirect a program now that's K twelve, and

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. I mean, I think that high

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Speaker 1: school teachers generally tend to come in with a little

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Speaker 1: bit more understanding of the intellectual nature of education, whereas

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Speaker 1: elementaries teachers often come in because they love children, and

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Speaker 1: so it takes a little bit more to push to say, okay,

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Speaker 1: but it's not just about like picking apples and making

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Speaker 1: apple sauce, and like we're actually going to engage young

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Speaker 1: people in these critical conversations. They can do, they can

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Speaker 1: handle it, whereas I think high school teachers know that

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Speaker 1: that's what they signed up for. Um. But you know,

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Speaker 1: it really depends on the person and the person's willingness

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Speaker 1: to go deep. You know, it's funny you're now remembering, um,

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Speaker 1: the few white women that were in my master's of

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Speaker 1: education program, and they were really unhappy with the way

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Speaker 1: that it was being taught, right, Like, they because of

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Speaker 1: literally what you just said. I want to become an

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Speaker 1: early childhood educator because I love children and I want,

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Speaker 1: you know, to to play and I want to create

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Speaker 1: like this playful you know environment for them, Like why

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Speaker 1: are you talking to me about race and racism? Right?

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Speaker 1: And like it was this it was this feeling that

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Speaker 1: they didn't want to be told to feel to like,

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Speaker 1: they didn't want to be perceived as bad, right, and

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Speaker 1: so it was like an order for me not to

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Speaker 1: be perceived as bad, not to be perceived as racist,

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Speaker 1: then I have to block all of this out, yes,

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Speaker 1: and I just like people, right, Like that was all

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Speaker 1: you know, that was kind of the pushback and you know,

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Speaker 1: and the field the sentiment that the professors would would provide.

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Speaker 1: It's like, right, but you're teaching all kinds of people.

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Speaker 1: They're not they're not going to stay children forever, like

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Speaker 1: they're growing into adults, adults, right, Like you're training adults

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Speaker 1: like you know, like and I and I don't think

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Speaker 1: I think it was very much lost on them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think that there's also this idea that if

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Speaker 1: I don't veer into this sort of anti racist social

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Speaker 1: justice curriculum, then I'm just being neutral, like yes and not.

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Speaker 1: And so for a lot of elementary teachers, they're scared

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Speaker 1: to sort of, you know, teach a more critical history,

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Speaker 1: even you know, the quintessential examples Christopher columb Right. And

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Speaker 1: so if I teach the teach the perspective of the

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Speaker 1: Tino indigenous people, then I'm being political. But if I

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Speaker 1: teach the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria, then

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Speaker 1: I'm being neutral. But actually you're not. You're you're glorifying

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Speaker 1: the history of polonization and you're ignoring the genocide and

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Speaker 1: the violence of what Columbus actually did and what he

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Speaker 1: set the stage for. And so I think teachers just

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Speaker 1: think that that maintaining the status quo means that I'm

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Speaker 1: not being political, But it's extra and it's all and

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Speaker 1: it's all inherently political exactly right, like the way the

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Speaker 1: way that the way that history has been set up,

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Speaker 1: the way that we teach is inherently political. Who you

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Speaker 1: decide to say is you know, even in music class,

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Speaker 1: I can remember, like, who you are anointing as the

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Speaker 1: music that children have to learn, right, Like is white men.

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Speaker 1: So it's like and the icons that you're saying are

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Speaker 1: these inventors and what have you? Are white men? So

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Speaker 1: it's like, so, how do you break through? How do

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Speaker 1: you break through that? Like? That is it is all

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Speaker 1: pull because the purpose I have said this forever, the

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Speaker 1: purpose of our public education system is to uphold white supremacy.

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Speaker 1: Like that that is the purpose of it. What do

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Speaker 1: you want because I think that your book, it's it's

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Speaker 1: not just for teachers, it's for parents, right, it's for

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Speaker 1: anybody that that interacts with kids, right, Like, how do

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Speaker 1: you how do you break this system? What are the

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Speaker 1: tools you know that if a parent is or you know,

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Speaker 1: a teacher obviously is picking up this book, what are

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Speaker 1: some of the tools that they can get to help

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Speaker 1: to help start to help start the process. Because it

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Speaker 1: is a process. It's not going to be one and done.

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Speaker 1: It's not like I read this book and now I'm

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Speaker 1: an anti No, it is a it's a practice. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think that the one of the strengths of

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Speaker 1: the books is that it uses a framework that is

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Speaker 1: really very popular and anti racism work now, which is

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Speaker 1: the four Eyes that look at how individual, interpersonal m sorry, individual, internalized,

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Speaker 1: institutional and ideological oppression work together. And so while it

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Speaker 1: may seem from the book that an individual can take

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Speaker 1: things away and reflect on their own socialization around race,

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Speaker 1: the solution is not an individual one, because, as you

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Speaker 1: said that, it's the institution of education that's upholding white supremacy,

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Speaker 1: and teachers are very unique because they are right in

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Speaker 1: the matrix. They're right in the middle of all four

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Speaker 1: of these systems of oppression. They're upholding institutional racism through

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Speaker 1: their own individual racism. And so we can't just try

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Speaker 1: to change individual teachers, even though it seems like that's

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Speaker 1: what I'm doing. But I'm arguing that the institution of

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Speaker 1: deeper education, the institution of education that's providing professional development

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Speaker 1: and training for educators, needs to shift to do this

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Speaker 1: deep examination work because that's the only way that we're

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Speaker 1: actually going to see changes and not only curriculum, but

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Speaker 1: in relationships in classroom, community, and school policy. Is when

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Speaker 1: everyone is doing that work, we're no longer working to

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Speaker 1: uphold racist systems, we might be working together to dismantle them, right,

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Speaker 1: and that can't happen if on large scales we're not

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Speaker 1: supporting that kind of that kind of exercise. You know,

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you another question before I let

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Speaker 1: you go, which is that you know it's a Black

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Speaker 1: History month, right, and usually you know, in amal in

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Speaker 1: normal times, in schools all over the country plastered with

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Speaker 1: Martin Luther King posters and Rosa parks and this stent

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Speaker 1: and the other thing, there is an intention, an intentionality,

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Speaker 1: even if a superficial one around this month. What do

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Speaker 1: you think about black history being like a curriculum for

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Speaker 1: February but then not incorporated at all the other eleven

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Speaker 1: months of the year. Yeah, for kids they have like

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Speaker 1: it makes I mean it could It should be a yes,

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Speaker 1: aunt right, it should be. It's incorporated throughout the year,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to pay special attention to it now,

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Speaker 1: but not that we're going to segregate it into this

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Speaker 1: one month. And again, if teachers are not doing this

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Speaker 1: kind of examination, white teachers are not doing this examination,

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Speaker 1: it's still going to be taught in a deficit, problematic

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Speaker 1: way that focuses a only on I saw a post

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Speaker 1: the other day on Facebook that was chadow slavery isn't

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Speaker 1: a chadow slavery is not black history. It's white history, right,

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Speaker 1: but it's taught as black history, right damn. And so

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Speaker 1: all of the ways in which white people have oppressed, marginalized,

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Speaker 1: and and done all of the atrocities that we have

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Speaker 1: done to black people is white history, black resistance, black invention,

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Speaker 1: black joy. That's Black history. And that's not how it's framed.

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Speaker 1: That's not how it's taught in schools, um and it's

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Speaker 1: and it's when it is taught, it's often being taught

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Speaker 1: through that deficit dominant ideology. So you know, Rosa Parks

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Speaker 1: was tired, or we're going to Martin Luther King, how

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Speaker 1: to tream? Isn't that nice? Not about his anti capitalists,

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Speaker 1: anti war, you know, speaking truth to the white moderate.

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Speaker 1: That's not what's getting taught during Black History when teachers

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Speaker 1: haven't examined that. So that's why I'm saying we can't

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Speaker 1: tinker with curriculum. We need to do deep excavation to

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Speaker 1: teachers racial ideology, and that's what will change curriculum. You

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Speaker 1: are doing the Lord's work, Bree, You really are. I

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Speaker 1: appreciate you so much. Folks. The book is reading, writing

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Speaker 1: and racism, disrupting whiteness in teacher education and the classroom. Bree,

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Speaker 1: you have got to come back to wokaf because this

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Speaker 1: conversation could go on for the longest, because I think

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Speaker 1: that it is the most important work to do. Like,

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Speaker 1: if we're to break with the abuse and cycle of

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Speaker 1: white supremacy, then you have to start with education. It

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Speaker 1: is the only place to start. Well, it was my

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Speaker 1: pleasure anytime. Thank you so much for having me as always,

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Speaker 1: dear friends. Power to the people and to all the people. Power,

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Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck. See after Labor Day.