1
00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:05,840
Speaker 1: There are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

2
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:13,400
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

3
00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:18,000
Speaker 1: is there are no Girls on the Internet. So this

4
00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,239
Speaker 1: is going to be a little bit different from our

5
00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,960
Speaker 1: normal Tuesday episodes that usually have an interview or a

6
00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,560
Speaker 1: conversation of some kind because we have a little announcement

7
00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,400
Speaker 1: here that there are no girls on the Internet. That is,

8
00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:32,760
Speaker 1: I guess I'll say, pretty important to me, to us,

9
00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,320
Speaker 1: to the team. I've got producer Mike here to help

10
00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:35,839
Speaker 1: me with it.

11
00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,479
Speaker 2: Yes, it's a big day. There are no girls on

12
00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,640
Speaker 2: the Internet. Thanks for having me here to share this

13
00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:43,479
Speaker 2: with the listeners.

14
00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:44,720
Speaker 3: I'm pretty excited about it.

15
00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,599
Speaker 1: So without further ado for writing a book, Actually, we

16
00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,199
Speaker 1: have written a book. It is written. It is currently

17
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,760
Speaker 1: with an editor as we speak. There are no girls

18
00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:58,639
Speaker 1: on the Internet. We have a book coming out.

19
00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have a book coming out exactly. It's pretty exciting.

20
00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:03,960
Speaker 2: I never thought that we would write a book.

21
00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,840
Speaker 1: I'm pretty excited. You all are kind of hearing this

22
00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:14,360
Speaker 1: first as listeners. The publishing company just went live with

23
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,120
Speaker 1: the Instagram announcement mere moments before we got on the microphone.

24
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,400
Speaker 1: So if I sound a little out of it. Today's

25
00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,320
Speaker 1: been a bit of a whirlwind of announcement and then feeling.

26
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,600
Speaker 1: I'm an anxious person and sometimes when I get good news,

27
00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,560
Speaker 1: my first inclination is oh shit. The way that I

28
00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,760
Speaker 1: feel big feelings is to retreat. But I'm having to

29
00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,360
Speaker 1: navigate feelings that are feelings that are weird for me,

30
00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:40,560
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to do my best and not just

31
00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,520
Speaker 1: go to my natural inclination, which is just to retreat.

32
00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:45,480
Speaker 1: You need to be pulled up when you're doing a book,

33
00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:47,520
Speaker 1: so that's what this is. The book is called Love

34
00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,560
Speaker 1: at First prompt AI in the Future of Intimacy, So

35
00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,920
Speaker 1: you're probably wondering what is this book actually about. I

36
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,840
Speaker 1: have been describing it as the movie Her meets the

37
00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,920
Speaker 1: Netflix documentary The Social Dilemma. Folks might remember we did

38
00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:06,360
Speaker 1: an episode about people who are finding themselves in intimate

39
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:10,520
Speaker 1: connection with AI. A lot of that looks like romantic

40
00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,079
Speaker 1: or sexual connection, but not all of it. Sometimes it's

41
00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:17,160
Speaker 1: platonic connection. Sometimes it's the use of AI for therapy.

42
00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,160
Speaker 1: Side note, Bravo watchers will know there's a character on

43
00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:26,840
Speaker 1: Southern Charm who exclusively uses CHATBT for therapy, but the

44
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:31,480
Speaker 1: book definitely explores that use case for AI. So folks

45
00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,400
Speaker 1: who listened to that episode of the podcast about connections

46
00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,919
Speaker 1: with AI like that might recall that we were trying

47
00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,600
Speaker 1: to approach it from a very specific lens, which was

48
00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,080
Speaker 1: non judgmental, leading with curiosity, leading with empathy, and really

49
00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,839
Speaker 1: just trying to understand what folks were saying when they

50
00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,720
Speaker 1: reported finding benefits or finding themselves in these kinds of

51
00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,320
Speaker 1: connections with AI. And when we did that episode, part

52
00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,240
Speaker 1: of the reason why I took that stance, it's just

53
00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,639
Speaker 1: that I think pathetic curious stance is always a good

54
00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:04,400
Speaker 1: stance to take on a subject that you don't know

55
00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,639
Speaker 1: a ton about. But part of it was also that

56
00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,680
Speaker 1: I had not done a deep dive into the available research.

57
00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:15,400
Speaker 1: There are people who specifically research the impacts of intimacy

58
00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,480
Speaker 1: and AI on from a public health perspective, from a

59
00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,640
Speaker 1: individual perspective, the harms, the benefits. I at that point

60
00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,440
Speaker 1: of the episode did not know any of that. So

61
00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,359
Speaker 1: I say that to say that from where I began

62
00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,519
Speaker 1: with this topic to where I ended to radically different

63
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,280
Speaker 1: places went. And I actually would be curious for your

64
00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,040
Speaker 1: take too, Mike, because when we started writing the book,

65
00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,680
Speaker 1: I had a deadline of my first ten thousand words,

66
00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,880
Speaker 1: and the first ten thousand of those words were written

67
00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:46,520
Speaker 1: before I had really dug into the research. It was

68
00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,120
Speaker 1: just sort of setting things up in the introduction.

69
00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:49,240
Speaker 3: And all of that.

70
00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,720
Speaker 1: It was ten thousand words about how people who find

71
00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,480
Speaker 1: themselves an intimate connection with AI are really lonely, and

72
00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,000
Speaker 1: that AI companies are profiting from this loneliness. Now, that

73
00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,320
Speaker 1: second part I think is still true and that the

74
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,400
Speaker 1: book really deals have quite heavily with that. But I

75
00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,960
Speaker 1: was really surprised by the fact that the research did

76
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,280
Speaker 1: not really bear out my anecdotal, uninformed opinion about what

77
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,120
Speaker 1: is driving people to intimate connections with AI. So we

78
00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,360
Speaker 1: ended up having to scrap that those first ten k words,

79
00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,120
Speaker 1: which you know I took pretty rough. I know that,

80
00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,000
Speaker 1: you know that was not a good day for me,

81
00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,320
Speaker 1: the day that we had to make that big change.

82
00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,120
Speaker 1: But you know, the research of the research.

83
00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:28,720
Speaker 3: That's right.

84
00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had the same experience getting into it. You know,

85
00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,320
Speaker 2: I started one place, really uh, with a lot of

86
00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:41,080
Speaker 2: assumptions about the harmfulness I think of people talking with

87
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:47,640
Speaker 2: their AI companions, you know, assumptions that it was reinforcing loneliness,

88
00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,359
Speaker 2: and pushing people apart, and as we got into the

89
00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,600
Speaker 2: research that really just wasn't born out by the research

90
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,440
Speaker 2: that people have been doing. So, like you said, we

91
00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:01,479
Speaker 2: wrote a bunch and the narrative sort of evolved as

92
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,440
Speaker 2: we were learning more about what the research had to

93
00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,520
Speaker 2: say about this, and then really changed. Yeah, we had

94
00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,960
Speaker 2: to just throw a bunch out, which was painful, but

95
00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,080
Speaker 2: I guess, you know, just all part of the process,

96
00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,640
Speaker 2: and you know where we ended up. I think tells

97
00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:23,039
Speaker 2: a much more interesting story than if we had just

98
00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,200
Speaker 2: written the whole thing based on our starting assumptions without

99
00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:31,080
Speaker 2: like actually learning more about what is going on with this.

100
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:36,719
Speaker 1: Yes, not necessarily great for hitting publisher deadlines, but really

101
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,039
Speaker 1: good for telling an honest and authentic story that is

102
00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,680
Speaker 1: rooted in research. And one note on the research is

103
00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,280
Speaker 1: that I was really surprised to find out that there

104
00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,120
Speaker 1: are people who have been researching this this intersection of

105
00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,440
Speaker 1: AI and intimacy for a long time. Probably one of

106
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,520
Speaker 1: my favorite and also most surprising interviews in the book

107
00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,160
Speaker 1: is from doctor Kate Devlin, who was someone who got

108
00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,960
Speaker 1: to this research very early. She's still guarded her research

109
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,480
Speaker 1: researching what you might consider to be sex bots so

110
00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:11,360
Speaker 1: like ex Machia Companion, you know, hot physical bots, not AI.

111
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,680
Speaker 1: And y'all might remember that we kind of live through

112
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,599
Speaker 1: a bit of a moral panic about sex bots, physical sexpots,

113
00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:20,840
Speaker 1: that people were going to be spending thousands and thousands

114
00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,039
Speaker 1: of dollars for these hyperrealistic AI enabled sex bots and

115
00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,600
Speaker 1: have relationships with them. Well, that really didn't turn out

116
00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,120
Speaker 1: to be the case. There are a few people who

117
00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,920
Speaker 1: to do that, however, mostly it's just niche like it.

118
00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,480
Speaker 1: It's not us us spreading phenomena. When doctor Devlin looked

119
00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,760
Speaker 1: into this, she realized, Okay, the bot angle of this

120
00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,440
Speaker 1: is just not gonna happen. The part of it that

121
00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,840
Speaker 1: I think is going to happen is the AI connection

122
00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:50,839
Speaker 1: bit of it, because a lot of these these physical

123
00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,799
Speaker 1: bots people are going to be taken with AI's ability

124
00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:00,080
Speaker 1: to mirror and learn as it pertains to emotional conne

125
00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,320
Speaker 1: and romantic connection. So the sexbots know the AI. Yes.

126
00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,520
Speaker 1: So she really got there early, and I was genuinely

127
00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,679
Speaker 1: surprised by a lot of her research. We dive quite

128
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,480
Speaker 1: deeply into a lot of the risks and the harms. So,

129
00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:17,320
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to make it sound like

130
00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,840
Speaker 1: I'm saying there are no risks and there are no harms,

131
00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,520
Speaker 1: because boy howdy are they And we definitely get into

132
00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,040
Speaker 1: it in the book, as does doctor Devlin's research. But

133
00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:30,160
Speaker 1: I think that our conversation with doctor Devlin grounded the

134
00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,559
Speaker 1: entire thesis statement of the book, which is that pretty

135
00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:39,080
Speaker 1: much every researcher, every expert, every technologist, every journalist that

136
00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,400
Speaker 1: we speak to for this project said some version of

137
00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,960
Speaker 1: the same thing, which is that the risk is real. However,

138
00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,480
Speaker 1: the widespread risk of harm is not necessarily that individuals

139
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,960
Speaker 1: are going to be pushed into deeper and deeper isolation

140
00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,440
Speaker 1: or loneliness or things like that. The widespread risk of

141
00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,160
Speaker 1: harms is what are these companies doing. What are these

142
00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,320
Speaker 1: companies profiting from? Are these companies behaving in ways that

143
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,800
Speaker 1: are ethical? Are these companies misleading people and misleading people

144
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,360
Speaker 1: about risk? And so I really started to see this

145
00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:17,840
Speaker 1: as a moral panic. It's so tempting to dunk on

146
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,840
Speaker 1: people who are self reporting relationships with AI or self

147
00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,160
Speaker 1: reporting intimate connections with AI. I absolutely get it. These

148
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,280
Speaker 1: people are easy targets. They're being vulnerable about the intimacies,

149
00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,400
Speaker 1: so they are easy targets in the way that we're

150
00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,120
Speaker 1: all easy targets and we open up about intimate parts

151
00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,960
Speaker 1: of our lives. However, we are spending so much time

152
00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,960
Speaker 1: gawking at people who are self reporting their relationships with

153
00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,560
Speaker 1: AI and intimacy with AI, that we are missing that

154
00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,839
Speaker 1: these companies are profiting from their control over these emotional

155
00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,199
Speaker 1: and intimate connections. I think from the beginning of the

156
00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,400
Speaker 1: book to where we landed, it's really about changing that

157
00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,839
Speaker 1: perspective and shifting the lens away from individuals and really

158
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:06,280
Speaker 1: asking questions about corporate harm and what is the risk

159
00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,760
Speaker 1: of harm here. So again, these kinds of intimate connections

160
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,880
Speaker 1: with AI are are not without harm, but that harm

161
00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:18,880
Speaker 1: is corporate. That harm is companies capitalizing off of people.

162
00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,920
Speaker 2: That's right, and it's a framework that we've talked about

163
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,640
Speaker 2: on this show pretty often. I think that there is

164
00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,600
Speaker 2: often an attempt to blame the harms of technology on

165
00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:37,520
Speaker 2: the victims, and I think that tendency allows companies often

166
00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,560
Speaker 2: to skirt accountability, and it's aided by the fact that

167
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,880
Speaker 2: it can be really salacious, dramatic, interesting to focus on

168
00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,679
Speaker 2: the interpersonal stories or the personal stories of people who

169
00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,880
Speaker 2: are harmed. You know, in the book Bridget you make

170
00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:59,240
Speaker 2: the analogy to the the iCloud photo hacks, when a

171
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:05,559
Speaker 2: bunch of celebrities had their personal photos hacked and leaked,

172
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,480
Speaker 2: and rather than focusing on the people who had committed

173
00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,839
Speaker 2: these hacks and the social media platforms that happily allowed

174
00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,079
Speaker 2: these hacked sexual photos to be spread across the Internet,

175
00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,520
Speaker 2: a lot of the discords focused on the individuals and

176
00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,320
Speaker 2: their own culpability for even taking these photos in the

177
00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,760
Speaker 2: first place. And I think that's a good analogy here

178
00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:35,960
Speaker 2: to describe, you know, this phenomenon as we are coming

179
00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,520
Speaker 2: to terms with what it means that AI chatbots exist

180
00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:46,360
Speaker 2: in the world here and people are talking with them

181
00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,920
Speaker 2: right like like it or not. This is a phenomenon

182
00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,880
Speaker 2: that's happening, and there's, like you mentioned, there's a lot

183
00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,600
Speaker 2: of scorn and ridicule focused on the people who are

184
00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:03,200
Speaker 2: experiencing this, and that just feels mis placed from where

185
00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,920
Speaker 2: the actual harms are occurring, according to the experts that

186
00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,120
Speaker 2: we spoke with exactly.

187
00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,200
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you brought up that moment in the

188
00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,520
Speaker 1: book about the photo hack. I think I've said this

189
00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,360
Speaker 1: on the podcast. I shoehorned into every conversation, even when

190
00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:19,920
Speaker 1: it doesn't fit. I shoe horned it into the book.

191
00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,640
Speaker 1: I sure did find a way that when the iCloud

192
00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,000
Speaker 1: photo hack happened, the then New York Times Tech column

193
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,120
Speaker 1: is tweeted like, oh, a man tweeted, I have a

194
00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,600
Speaker 1: helpful tips for women celebrities who don't want their photos

195
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,040
Speaker 1: to be leaked, don't take nude photos. And he did

196
00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,760
Speaker 1: later delete that tweet and apologize. Apology very much not accepted,

197
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,680
Speaker 1: because I feel that that really highlights exactly the thing

198
00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:47,400
Speaker 1: I am trying to get at in this book, that

199
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,280
Speaker 1: when there are harms that are institutional or corporate, it

200
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,520
Speaker 1: is so easy to blame the people who are targeted

201
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,000
Speaker 1: or who get caught up in it. And while we're

202
00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,400
Speaker 1: doing that, these companies are like, thank god that they're

203
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,000
Speaker 1: just blaming these people and not blaming our systems that

204
00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,360
Speaker 1: enabled it and the way that we made money from it.

205
00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,800
Speaker 1: And I guess I'm with the book that I'm really

206
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,560
Speaker 1: trying to write what I feel like is an institutional

207
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:17,160
Speaker 1: wrong and kind of pump the brakes on blaming or

208
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,080
Speaker 1: ridiculing or gawking at people who are self reporting these

209
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,920
Speaker 1: kinds of intimate connections with AI and really turning that

210
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,080
Speaker 1: lens over to company's like Replica Open AI that run

211
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,120
Speaker 1: them that I would argue enable them that say, oh,

212
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,760
Speaker 1: emotional intimacy or sexual intimacy is a great way to

213
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,360
Speaker 1: be using our platform until it no longer serves them,

214
00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:41,880
Speaker 1: and then they turn right around and say, oh, this

215
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,600
Speaker 1: is an inappropriate use case for our platform. They want

216
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,760
Speaker 1: to have it both ways, and yeah, I just I

217
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,160
Speaker 1: think we should be talking about that. And I think

218
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,760
Speaker 1: that one of the reasons why I have a b

219
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,600
Speaker 1: in my bonded about this a little bit is that

220
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,920
Speaker 1: because it's something that I think is salacious and like

221
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,200
Speaker 1: easy to god at and easy to ridicule, the people

222
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,640
Speaker 1: who could probably tell us the most about why they

223
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:11,560
Speaker 1: have turned to AI for therapeutic support or romance or companionship,

224
00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,760
Speaker 1: we are hearing from them the least, right I like people.

225
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,480
Speaker 1: There are millions of people for whom that is the

226
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,600
Speaker 1: case for and because of this dynamic where they feel

227
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,439
Speaker 1: they are going to be ridiculed, sometimes they're not doing interview,

228
00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,000
Speaker 1: sometimes they're not, you know, like talking to researchers. And

229
00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,600
Speaker 1: I do think that we can learn a lot about

230
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:35,800
Speaker 1: where we are right now and where we might be

231
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,240
Speaker 1: headed from what these folks have to say. But right now,

232
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,839
Speaker 1: we don't have a dynamic that allows for these folks

233
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,600
Speaker 1: to really be heard. And I think that that needs

234
00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,480
Speaker 1: to change. And you know, I don't think anybody listening

235
00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 1: to this podcast will be surprised to know that I'm

236
00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,600
Speaker 1: a what you might call it AI critic, AI skeptic,

237
00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,439
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it. However, you know when

238
00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,000
Speaker 1: you have somebody like Mark Zuckerberg going on a podcast

239
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,920
Speaker 1: and saying, oh, in the near future, the majority of

240
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,720
Speaker 1: your friends will be AI, and you'll love it when

241
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,160
Speaker 1: he's saying something like that. Side note, it's AI that

242
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,120
Speaker 1: I run that I profit from. It's AI that I'm

243
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,160
Speaker 1: giving you as a substitute for friendship after my platforms

244
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,880
Speaker 1: really eroded friendships. So I'm causing the problem and I'm

245
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,600
Speaker 1: selling you the cure. Even with all of that, I

246
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,200
Speaker 1: don't think that he is necessarily wrong. That is not

247
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,440
Speaker 1: a future that I necessarily want, Like I don't want

248
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,680
Speaker 1: a future where the majority of my friendships are AI.

249
00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,520
Speaker 1: Certainly not. I don't want a future designed by Mark Zuckerberg.

250
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,360
Speaker 1: I don't think that my idea of a good future

251
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,440
Speaker 1: and Mark Zuckerberg's idea of the good future are aligned. However,

252
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:41,960
Speaker 1: I do think there's some I don't think that he's

253
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,560
Speaker 1: wrong in pointing out the ways that more and more

254
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,480
Speaker 1: people are turning to AI for intimacy. So we should

255
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,000
Speaker 1: be talking about it, we should be looking at it,

256
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,960
Speaker 1: we should be like asking questions about how it's going.

257
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,440
Speaker 1: And yeah, I guess that's what this book is an

258
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:56,040
Speaker 1: attempt to do.

259
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:57,200
Speaker 3: That's right.

260
00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,880
Speaker 2: And when the conversation is focused on on you know,

261
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,240
Speaker 2: salacious stories making fun of the people who are involved,

262
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,640
Speaker 2: not only does it allow Mark Zuckerberg and the people

263
00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,960
Speaker 2: who run these companies to avoid accountability, but we also

264
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,360
Speaker 2: miss out on a lot of interesting things that we

265
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,800
Speaker 2: might learn by actually engaging in a more thoughtful, inquisitive way.

266
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,880
Speaker 2: And I think one of the really interesting things that

267
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,240
Speaker 2: I learned in the process of writing this was just

268
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,920
Speaker 2: how the people who feel like they are in intimate

269
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:37,920
Speaker 2: relationships with AI companions really don't view it as a

270
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,520
Speaker 2: replacement for humans for the most part, with some big

271
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,440
Speaker 2: exceptions that we cover in the book. These are healthy,

272
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,280
Speaker 2: non delusional adults that view it as a different type

273
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,280
Speaker 2: of thing. And I think that's really interesting, and you know,

274
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,800
Speaker 2: exploring the ways that they how they think about this

275
00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,520
Speaker 2: thing that they are doing and what the research has

276
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,680
Speaker 2: to say about it. I think can shed a lot

277
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,960
Speaker 2: of late not just onto this phenomenon, but about the

278
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:11,080
Speaker 2: bigger questions of what it means to be in a

279
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,600
Speaker 2: relationship period. You know, it's having this other type, this

280
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,720
Speaker 2: totally new, other type of relationship, I think gives us

281
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,200
Speaker 2: a slightly different perspective to understand the relationships that we

282
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,960
Speaker 2: have with each other, with other humans and what makes

283
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:26,520
Speaker 2: them so unique and valuable.

284
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,840
Speaker 1: Yes, and we do interviews in the book with people

285
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,680
Speaker 1: who have had intimate connections with AI or used AI

286
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,840
Speaker 1: in that way that you've just described, Mike. So the

287
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:43,440
Speaker 1: common anecdotal attitude is those people are really delusional. I

288
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,840
Speaker 1: was really surprised to hear how clear eyed they think

289
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 1: about AI and how deliberate they are about the roles

290
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,280
Speaker 1: that AI play in their own personal lives in ways

291
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,680
Speaker 1: that like I certainly am not. And it kind of

292
00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:58,920
Speaker 1: made me think, not only are a lot of these

293
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,840
Speaker 1: people not delusional, well, they have a firmer grasp on

294
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,199
Speaker 1: what AI is and what it isn't and what it

295
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:06,800
Speaker 1: can and what it can't be for them emotionally than

296
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,320
Speaker 1: I had ever thought about myself end of a.

297
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,600
Speaker 2: Firm grasp on how it shows up in their life

298
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,840
Speaker 2: and what they want from it, like how they want

299
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,520
Speaker 2: it to impact their life. One of the surprising things

300
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,800
Speaker 2: for me was how several of the people we spoke

301
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:29,760
Speaker 2: with described how talking with their AI companion actually allowed

302
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,119
Speaker 2: them to connect with other humans, either through like finding

303
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:38,199
Speaker 2: online community among people who are similarly talking with their

304
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:44,480
Speaker 2: AI companions, or by boosting their social confidence or their

305
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,800
Speaker 2: self esteem, or helping them work through something so that

306
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,159
Speaker 2: they were better able to show up in their irl

307
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,719
Speaker 2: human to human life, which again was not something that

308
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,800
Speaker 2: I expected going in at.

309
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,240
Speaker 3: All, came through pretty clearly in the research.

310
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,879
Speaker 1: Yes, pretty much everything I thought I knew about this

311
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:06,440
Speaker 1: subject is kind of wrong.

312
00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:22,320
Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break at our back.

313
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,560
Speaker 1: So we're talking about my new audiobook Love at First

314
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,440
Speaker 1: Prompt being published by Simon and Schuster, which you can

315
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,320
Speaker 1: pre order now. And basically everything that I thought that

316
00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,320
Speaker 1: I knew about intimacy and AI was wrong. Like, I

317
00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,800
Speaker 1: assume that people who foster intimate connections with AI are

318
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,720
Speaker 1: doing so in an attempt to replace human connection, but

319
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:49,240
Speaker 1: actually the research really clarified that their human connections are

320
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:53,240
Speaker 1: often deepened by whatever their connection is with AI. When

321
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,159
Speaker 1: we talked to doctor Devlin, she talked about this experience

322
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,960
Speaker 1: of getting emails from people like strangers from all over

323
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:03,240
Speaker 1: the world, where the stranger will say, I think I'm

324
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,600
Speaker 1: in love with AI. I'm writing to you because you

325
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,960
Speaker 1: researched this. I know you'll understand what should I do?

326
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,280
Speaker 1: And she'll say, like, Wow, these people they seek me

327
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,159
Speaker 1: out another human to confide in. You know, they like

328
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,760
Speaker 1: they they're they're connecting with me and emailing me and

329
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,160
Speaker 1: reaching out to me another human because of this connection

330
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 1: they have with AI. And so the idea that oh,

331
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,199
Speaker 1: the AI would be enough for them, They're going to

332
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 1: use AI to replace their human human connection. If that

333
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:33,919
Speaker 1: was the case, they wouldn't be reaching out to doctor Bevlin,

334
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,760
Speaker 1: who was very much a human right And so all

335
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,720
Speaker 1: of these ways that connections with AI actually pushed people

336
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,200
Speaker 1: to be in deeper relationship with the humans in their

337
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:47,359
Speaker 1: life I found fascinating. Again, all of this sounds hunky dory,

338
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 1: but when people put these kinds of connections and emotional

339
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,879
Speaker 1: weight in the hands of companies like Replica and Open Ai,

340
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,159
Speaker 1: that's when things can really get risky. And so We

341
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:06,440
Speaker 1: do obviously have instances where people were genuinely harmed by

342
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,000
Speaker 1: intimate connection with AI. We talk quite a bit about

343
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,800
Speaker 1: some high profile cases, and so certainly that is part

344
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,119
Speaker 1: of the conversation. But I don't think that these high

345
00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:21,480
Speaker 1: profile tragedies are the only harms that these companies should

346
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 1: be accountable for. Doing the research makes that super clear.

347
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,760
Speaker 1: You know, we do have these horrible instances, these horrible

348
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,920
Speaker 1: tragedies where young people are harmed or they die by

349
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:36,760
Speaker 1: suicide because of connections with AI. Yes, and those are

350
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,400
Speaker 1: not the only kinds of harms that these companies need

351
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 1: to be accountable for. And I feel like right now

352
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,639
Speaker 1: the conversation is really based on these high profile harms,

353
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,520
Speaker 1: understandably so in some cases, while kind of missing the

354
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,919
Speaker 1: bigger picture of well, can we trust these companies to

355
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,239
Speaker 1: hold connections so intimate? Can we trust companies run by

356
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 1: people like Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk and Sam Altman

357
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 1: with our deepest, most intimate connections and feelings and the

358
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,120
Speaker 1: most human parts of ourselves?

359
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 2: That privacy risk, I think is a really big one

360
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 2: that we talk about quite a bit, because yeah, a

361
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:16,640
Speaker 2: lot of people really share deeply personal stuff with their

362
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,760
Speaker 2: AI chatbot, and we have a whole chapter talking about

363
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 2: how people engage with them, almost like therapy. And it's

364
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 2: complicated because a lot of people are getting a lot

365
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,920
Speaker 2: of value out of it, and independent studies have said

366
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 2: that a lot of that information have said that a

367
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 2: lot of the feedback that their chatbots give them is

368
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 2: actually pretty good from like a clinical perspective, but not

369
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,440
Speaker 2: all of it is. And then there is that existential

370
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 2: question of like, what does it mean to be sharing

371
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,960
Speaker 2: your deepest, darkest secrets with a company that is just

372
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 2: going to hold onto your data and use it for

373
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 2: you don't even know what, right, Like maybe they're going

374
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 2: to use it to train models, which means that it's

375
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 2: in there and it might be accessible to other people

376
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 2: to find. They might sell it to other companies who

377
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 2: would be even less have even fewer scruples about what

378
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 2: they do with it. So I definitely left feeling like

379
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 2: that is perhaps one of the biggest scariest pieces that

380
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 2: we as a society need to tackle related to this,

381
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:25,440
Speaker 2: one of several.

382
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 1: That was probably one of my favorite chapters to write

383
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 1: in the book. I was very proud of the title

384
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 1: of that chapter. So the book is sort of about

385
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,160
Speaker 1: we use romance as the jumping off point, but then

386
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 1: we dive into all of these other kind of AI

387
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,479
Speaker 1: connections and that using the romance theme. That chapter is

388
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 1: called the hardest part of breaking up is getting back

389
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 1: your stuff? If you know or that, if you get that,

390
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: if you are as old as me and you get

391
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 1: that reference, leave it in the Spotify comment so I

392
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: can sneak a heart in there. But it's true if

393
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: you're thinking about AI as something that you can have

394
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: an intimate connection with. But AI companies are like, we'll

395
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: tell we'll use whatever you tell it however we want.

396
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,239
Speaker 1: And you have no idea how that what that's going

397
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 1: to be? Is that really intimacy? And if we're if

398
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 1: we're using the theme of a romantic relationship, wouldn't that

399
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 1: be kind of a bad relationship if you run relationship

400
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 1: with what something that's gonna you have no idea how

401
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: what you are are sharing is going to be used?

402
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 1: Is that really intimacy? You know? We have the sort

403
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 1: of Koupi grav The book is a conversation with one

404
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: of my favorite journalists, Karen Howe, who wrote the book

405
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 1: Empire of AI and people who run companies like Sam Altman,

406
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 1: I think, in my opinion, really cannot be trusted. And

407
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 1: what does it mean when we have more and more

408
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 1: people who are trusting the most intimate parts of ourselves

409
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 1: with people who, in my opinion, really cannot be trusted,

410
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 1: who go out of their way to speak in these

411
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 1: terms that obscure what they're actually saying, what they're actually

412
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 1: going to do. And I think the book really teases

413
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 1: at some of the existential problems with that dynamic.

414
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, like we don't trust those individuals who are leading

415
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 2: those companies, but even if it were other individuals, we

416
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 2: shouldn't trust those companies, right, like we just it's just

417
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 2: fundamentally flawed to trust companies with that level of our

418
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 2: intimate secrets, right, Like they've proven over and over you

419
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 2: they can't be trusted, right, Like we need privacy laws.

420
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 2: But that's digressing a little bit from the book, right.

421
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: The book doesn't really get so far into that.

422
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: So I wrote this book. Mike is our co author.

423
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: We did write it together. We make the podcast together

424
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 1: every week. How was it writing a book with me

425
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 1: just out of curiosity? You can be honest, I know

426
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 1: we had the ups and downs.

427
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 3: It was exciting yeah.

428
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 2: I was really grateful to be invited to be your

429
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: co author and help, you know, bring some social science

430
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 2: into the book. It was fun, it was exciting. I

431
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 2: have such a I love hate relationship with writing. A

432
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: quote that you've said before is like I love having written,

433
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 2: I hate writing, and that really resonates. It's so I

434
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,959
Speaker 2: think that's Dorothy Parker. Oh, that wasn't a Bridget original.

435
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 2: That was Dorothy Parker.

436
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: Oh, Dorothy Parker original.

437
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 3: I wish I was that clever, but it's really true.

438
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 2: It's like writing is so difficult, especially this book, because

439
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 2: it's an incredibly fast timeline right because it's such a

440
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 2: timely topic. The publisher wanted to get it out right away,

441
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 2: and so it was just a little bit under two

442
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 2: months that we had to write this thing, and that

443
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: time period included Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's so it

444
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 2: was really intense, really fast. It was interesting working with you, Bridget,

445
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: just seeing the different ways that we write. You know,

446
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 2: I come from more of like an academic background, where

447
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,360
Speaker 2: the main type of writing is academic articles and scientific journals,

448
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: where a team of co authors revises and revises and

449
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 2: endlessly revises, and by you know, the end, You've spent

450
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 2: tens of hours, if not more, uh, to end up with,

451
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 2: you know, maybe a fifteen page article. It's just so

452
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 2: interesting seeing that. Joxasposed with I think your experience writing

453
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 2: in various media formats where you just have to get

454
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 2: stuff out and just watching the words like fill the

455
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: document as you were typing what was kind of amazing.

456
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: Yes, I would say, what I learned is that I

457
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: write fast, but not always. I subscribe to the axiom

458
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 1: write drunk, edit sober. Is that it? Yeah, right, drunk,

459
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: edit sober. So I might just get it on the page.

460
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: We'll deal with it later. So we would be we

461
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 1: would say, like the whole afternoon writing, I'd like I've

462
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: written five thousand words, two thousand of them or maybe okay,

463
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: you know, you'd be like, I've written a paragraph, but

464
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: that paragraph it's phenomenal.

465
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 2: W it's a really great paragraph. Yes, like tight start

466
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: from place goes another. The readers are gonna love it

467
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 2: or the listeners, I guess because it's an audio book, right, yes.

468
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, we I just realize I have not even said

469
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: the name of the book, which is you see how

470
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 1: good I am at promoting my own stuff. I should

471
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,959
Speaker 1: probably say the name. The name of the book is

472
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: Love at First Prompt AI in the Future of Intimacy.

473
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: It is a audio original through Simon and Schuster, so

474
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 1: it is not a physical book, and it's an audio book.

475
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: You can pre order it if you go to Love

476
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 1: at First prompt dot ai, which is a domain name

477
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: that we bought that we were really stoked to have.

478
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,959
Speaker 1: So that is the book. But yeah, writing it with

479
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: you was interesting because you really learn it's one thing

480
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: to make a podcast together, it's quite another thing to

481
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 1: write a book together. And ultimately we got it done

482
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: and that timeline I think we I think I signed

483
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: the contract the week of Thanksgiving and the full thing

484
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 1: was to do at the end of January, so really

485
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 1: I had to write it fast. And also just because

486
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: as we know from doing the podcast news, it changes

487
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 1: so quickly, so stuff that I would write in December

488
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 1: within a week it was outdated, and so it really

489
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: was I understand why we had to get this in

490
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: so quick because it's just such an evolving topic.

491
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really pleased with how it came together. I

492
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: think the format is really interesting, the audiobook format, because

493
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 2: it's not like a standard audiobook where the listener is

494
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 2: just hearing the author or a voice actor read what's

495
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: on the page, but there's actually interviews and conversations with

496
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 2: people embedded throughout. So I think the format is pretty

497
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 2: interesting and kind of innovative, and I also feel that

498
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 2: the substance of how you told the story it's quite

499
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 2: masterfully done. I mean, this is why I like making

500
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 2: a podcast with you. I think you're really good at

501
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: telling these stories about technology in ways that are both

502
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: person and grounded in the science and the reported facts,

503
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: and it ends up feeling like something sort.

504
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 3: Of in between.

505
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 2: You know, It's it's not just a narrative bunch of vignettes.

506
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 2: It's not a collection of essays. It's not a textbook.

507
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: It's something that I think is character driven but also informative.

508
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: If I might say that about our work.

509
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad that you put it that way, because

510
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: it is a very personal work to me. Not only

511
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: is it just a lot there's a lot of myself

512
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: in this book, but also I talk about, you know,

513
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: my own grief journey and the way that AI showed

514
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: up in that journey, which I think might be a

515
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: surprise to some listeners, But you know, I am not

516
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: someone that I would say that I'm in or have

517
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: had any kind of like intimate connection with AI. However,

518
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: I am someone who had what you might describe as

519
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: a mental break. Is that too Maybe that's too strong?

520
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: So I like and I think that when you I'm

521
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: fine now. But I guess I'm someone who, at my

522
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: lowest moments, I know what it feels like to turn

523
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: to anything for comfort. And that's sort of my starting

524
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: place in this book, is that at my lowest moments,

525
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: when I'm searching for just anything that will be helpful

526
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: in me feeling better, I know what it feels like

527
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: to turn to things that in the moment might offer comfort.

528
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: But then you take a step back and say, well,

529
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: what's that good for me? You know, what was I

530
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: participating in in looking for that moment of personal comfort?

531
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: So the book is a blend of research and other

532
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: people's stories, but also very much my own story navigating

533
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: tough shit and the way that AI played into that.

534
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're you're quite personal in the book. You know,

535
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: I really commend you for how much you were willing

536
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 2: to share about your own personal life and some of

537
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: the archist moments that you know, we've shared a little

538
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: bit with with listeners over the past two years or so,

539
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: but there's a lot more of it in the book,

540
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 2: and I think it was quite brave of you to

541
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 2: share all that.

542
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just I don't want anyone to think that

543
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: I'm coming from this from a place of not really

544
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: getting it, because I feel like I feel like I

545
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: do really get it. And that is really what I

546
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: think drove me to not just want to write this book,

547
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: but also my interest in these use cases of AI, right, Like,

548
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: I have been drawn to this topic even before I

549
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: had done any of the research because of my own

550
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: personal connection to it. And I am glad that Simon

551
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: and Schuster, who is our publisher, saw something in this.

552
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: And I'll brand on myself a little bit, if that's okay,

553
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: which is that I signed to a literary agency at

554
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: the same time that this offer for the book came

555
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: to be, and those two things happened independently, which was unusual.

556
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: And I was talking to someone, just chit chatting with someone,

557
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: and they were like, wait a minute. So someone at

558
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: Simon and Schuster heard your podcast episode and thought that

559
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: should be a Simon and Schuster audio original got in

560
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: touch with you and then you wrote it and I said, yeah,

561
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: that's what happened, and they were like, that's incredibly unusual.

562
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: Most writers are like submitting stuff and getting rejected and

563
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: it sucks and it's awful. The fact that not only

564
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: did your literary agent come to you, but then Simon

565
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: and Schuster came to you. That's a nice situation. And

566
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: I did not realize that. And I agree that is

567
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: a nice situation. So I don't mean it braggy, but

568
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: it just feels good that people are listening to these stories,

569
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: and it feels good that people see value in them.

570
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: And I guess I say that to say that you

571
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: never know who's listening. If you're out there and you

572
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: make a podcast, you write a thing, you have a

573
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: blog or a substack or whatever, a beehive, you never

574
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: know who is engaging with what you have to say

575
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: in the world. And even though if it feel like

576
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: no one's listening, an editor from Simon and Juster could

577
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: be listening and reach out to you to do a

578
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,959
Speaker 1: really cool project. So that was really cool. Podcasting is

579
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: my main thing, my main hang. I will always be

580
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: an audio girl audio forever, you know that. But I

581
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: am very interested in you know, print in writing, in film,

582
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: especially other kinds of media, and so it's really nice

583
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: to have opportunity to branch out a little bit. It's

584
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: still an audio first project, so I felt kind of

585
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: comfortable making that transition, but it felt good to have

586
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: the opportunity to flex in these different style a little bit.

587
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, different style and different lengths, different format.

588
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 4: You know.

589
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 2: We make this podcast every week, twice a week, and

590
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: it was just such a different process to write a book, right, Like,

591
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: it's just a much longer thing where the beginning and

592
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: the end are so much further apart, right, and there's

593
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: so much more opportunity to cover ground in the middle

594
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 2: then we get in a typical podcast episode.

595
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember when Simon and Schuster told us how

596
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: many words that they thought that the book should be.

597
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't think I could. I've never

598
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 1: written anything of this like before. Am I ever going

599
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: to be able to feel this many words by the end?

600
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: I was like, oh no, it's double what they asked for.

601
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: Is this gonna be okay? I cannot believe if anybody

602
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 1: listening wants to write a book and they're thinking they

603
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: cannot fill a certain number of words yes you can, Yes,

604
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: you can. You will be surprised. Once you get going,

605
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, actually I have a lot to say.

606
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: Good luck shutting me up. So let's talk about the

607
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: sequel more.

608
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 4: After a quick break, let's.

609
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: Get right back into it. I think that when you

610
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: are a self employed creer, you really get a mentality

611
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 1: in your head that you can never really just take

612
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: a minute and be happy about something. And when we

613
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: signed the book deal, I was pretty happy. Besigning it

614
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: felt so good. And then I was like, oh shit,

615
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: now I have to write it. And that part was

616
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: a little bit rough. And now it's turned in and

617
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: I'm trying to be intentional about trying to like just

618
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,479
Speaker 1: be a little happy for a little bit. And maybe

619
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: people will read it and hate it, and that's fine,

620
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: But in this moment, nobody's read it with me and

621
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: you and the editors, So oh, I can just sort

622
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 1: of basket it a little bit.

623
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, basket it, take it in.

624
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: It's it's been a real emotional roller coaster, Like it

625
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 2: was a very intense period of time trying to write

626
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: this thing. It was all consuming, right, Like we spend

627
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,479
Speaker 2: most of our time working on it almost every day.

628
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 2: Other projects kind of got reshuffled around so that we

629
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 2: could make space for it. It was very all consuming, and

630
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, it's written and it's done,

631
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 2: and it's turned into the copy editor. I think we've

632
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 2: both over the past couple days been feeling with a

633
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 2: little bit of that like rollercoaster of emotion and attention,

634
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: where this big thing that was demanding our time and

635
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: energy all of a sudden is no longer demanding it.

636
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 2: And so I guess I can speak for myself. I

637
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 2: feel I've felt a little bit like I have a

638
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: lot of energy that all of a sudden, I need

639
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 2: to figure out where it goes.

640
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 3: And that's been a new experience.

641
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was crying this morning. I don't even really

642
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 1: know why. I just felt it just feels weird. It

643
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: just feels weird. And I think part of it for

644
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: me is like you write a book and it's like

645
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 1: my parents aren't here to see it, and the book

646
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 1: is very much about my parents and grief and wrestling

647
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: with all of that, and it's weird to have this

648
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: accomplishment that it's about them and they're not here to

649
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: see it. I was telling something earlier. I should think

650
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: I was telling you this that when I was a kid,

651
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,879
Speaker 1: whenever we had to do any kind of like go

652
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: door to door and sell stuff, my parents would just

653
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: like take the thing to their work and just like

654
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: make their coworkers buy it. I'm sure people listening are like, oh, yeah,

655
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: my coworker does that with girls scal cookies and it's

656
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: annoying as hell. Those are my parents, and I know

657
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: that they would be like, can we just buy a

658
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: million copies? Obviously that is the wrong thing to do,

659
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: and like it doesn't even work if that's how you

660
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: do it. But I know that my parents are first

661
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: thing they would say it was like, let's just buy

662
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: a million copies? How can we buy a million copies

663
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 1: to make this thing a best seller?

664
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 3: Yeah?

665
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 2: You know, I had the opportunity to meet your parents

666
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 2: and they were both really tremendous people, and I think

667
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 2: they would be so proud of you for writing this book.

668
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 2: And I can only imagine how much it sucks to

669
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 2: not be able to hear them say that.

670
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 3: But regardless of whether.

671
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 2: You get to like hear and feel their praise, you

672
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 2: know that you have done something that they would be

673
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 2: very proud of. And I think that's really the important

674
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 2: thing like as we age and our parents are with

675
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 2: us for a while, until all of a sudden they're not.

676
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 2: Are we continuing to take what they taught us and

677
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: lead the lives that they would have wanted us to lead.

678
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 2: And I think you know that they would be so

679
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,240
Speaker 2: proud of you for having written this book.

680
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. And as I was writing, writing anything,

681
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: putting anything out into the world is hard. But something

682
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: about writing a book really inflamed a lot of my

683
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: self esteem and imposter syndrome stuff, and I really looked back.

684
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: I actually say, have saved all my emails with my dad,

685
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: because we emailed quite a bit and then weren't correspondents

686
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 1: quite a bit. And something about my dad was that

687
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: he was that parent who everything I did was so amazing.

688
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: I would send him. When I was working at MSNBC,

689
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: part of my job sometimes be to write these like

690
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: very low lift listicals, the kind of thing that AI

691
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: would probably is probably doing in newsrooms now, where there's

692
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: like a sentence of my like a sentence introduction, and

693
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: that everything else is a collection of tweets, so very

694
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: little writing. And he would say, oh, like, I'm brilliant,

695
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: You're such a good writer. You're such a good writer.

696
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: Everything I and in writing the book, I really was

697
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: just like hyper aware of I mean, I don't think

698
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: i'd be a creative professional if I did not have

699
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: that kind of parent, the kind of parent who, even

700
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: if they don't necessarily understand what it is that you do,

701
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: is just your cheerleader on your side, in your corner.

702
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: Everything you do, oh so great, so great, keep it up,

703
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: keep it up, keep it up. I got to have

704
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: decades of that voice in my head, in my ear,

705
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: and so I yes, I'm grateful that for this process

706
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: that was quite trying. God, I had that. I that,

707
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: you know, because you really doubt yourself a lot, and

708
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: like you need to have the voices in your head

709
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: that are like, keep it up, keep it up, keep

710
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 1: it up. And I'm really lucky that my dad, like

711
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 1: implanted that I have had his voice in my head

712
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: telling me keep going, keep going, keep going. And so

713
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: thank you for saying that on me. Flip side. Over

714
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: the weekend, I went for a walker ond my neighborhood

715
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: and I bumped into, completely randomly a professor from my

716
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: grad school who at the time was like a professor

717
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: that I really I really loved his class, like it

718
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 1: was a big He was an impactful professor to me,

719
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: and I thought, this is kismet. I'm supposed to tell

720
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: this professor about my book because I'm at the phase

721
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: where I can start telling people, and here is somebody

722
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: who was impactful in my in my life to tell.

723
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: And the first thing that he said, and I don't

724
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: I'm not like it's it is what it is, but

725
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 1: he said, oh, you have a book deal, You've written

726
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: a book. I have a novel that I've been trying

727
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: to get published, but no one's taking it because I'm

728
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 1: too white, too old, too male. And I was like, oh,

729
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 1: he mixed the recent that I got this book felis

730
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: because I'm a black woman.

731
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 3: What a terrible thing to say to you. What a

732
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 3: bitter old man. Damn oh.

733
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: I took it on the chin, like I don't want

734
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 1: to say too much because he I might reveal who

735
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: he is.

736
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure he's not listening to this podcast. He's

737
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 2: definitely not listening. For sure is not listening.

738
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: But I guess what I'm saying is that it probably

739
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 1: is hard to watch a new generation take up space

740
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: and get opportunities and It goes back to what we

741
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 1: said in the news around up about how we're in

742
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: this dynamic where for a certain population of white men,

743
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: especially if you want something and you don't get it,

744
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: it's a very convenient scapegoat to be like, the reason

745
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,720
Speaker 1: you're not getting it is because of black people or women,

746
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: right that. Oh, if you don't get that job, it's

747
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 1: because a black person probably got it and they're underqualified.

748
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,399
Speaker 1: If you don't get that book deal, it's because there's

749
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: too many black folks and women in publishing. My problematic

750
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: faith Joyce Carol Oates that is an attitude that she believes.

751
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: So it was fine. I just thought it was funny

752
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: that the first person that I told about this book,

753
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: the first like person that's not in my inner circle,

754
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,240
Speaker 1: had that reaction that we've talked about on the podcast

755
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: so often.

756
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 2: It is, Yeah, I'm so curious what other reactions we're

757
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 2: gonna get to this. So I think it comes out

758
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 2: in July, right, July fourteenth, best deal day.

759
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 1: It comes out on July fourteenth, twenty twenty six. Great,

760
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: it's it'll be a fun beach listen. It's not it's

761
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: not too heavy. You have a book I protest. This

762
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: is where I have to give the plea, which is

763
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 1: that pre orders, I have come to learn, are really

764
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: really important. So yes, you can get it in July.

765
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: Would love to have you order it anytime. All of that,

766
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: but I really want this book to be successful. I

767
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: know times are tough, so I'm not gonna say, like,

768
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: you know, do what you gotta do. I know times

769
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: are We're all feeling economic crunches and so spending money

770
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 1: on pleasure listens. I get that's a big ask. If

771
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,240
Speaker 1: you can pre order it, it would mean the fucking

772
00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: world to me. Apparently, pre orders are the thing you

773
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,879
Speaker 1: can go to love at first prompt dot ai and

774
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: it'll take your right to the place to pre order.

775
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: If you do pre order and you send us a

776
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: screenshot of your pre order, you can email it to

777
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 1: us at Hello, at Tango, you dot com. You can

778
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: tag it, tag us on social media at Bridge at

779
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: Marine DC, on blue Sky at there are no girls

780
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: on the internet, all the social stuff. If you find

781
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: a way to get the fact that you've pre ordered

782
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: to us, we will send you a sticker. I will

783
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 1: personally write you with thank you card and mail it

784
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 1: to you. I guess some people already got stickers. You

785
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 1: know what, if you already got us, maybe we'll do magnets.

786
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: We've got magnets. Is that too much shipping? I don't know.

787
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: We'll figure out. We'll send you something.

788
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 3: It'll be fig Okay, magnets are pretty pricey. We can't

789
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 3: just be given out magnets.

790
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: We have a bunch of magnets. No, okay, you don't

791
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: need to get into it now. We'll send you a sticker.

792
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: We'll send you a sticker.

793
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 2: If people already got a sticker, they should let us

794
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 2: know that and we'll send them something else.

795
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 1: Yes, you tell me what you want. I've got to

796
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: I don't know.

797
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 3: Brishup will come to your house and cook you dinner.

798
00:43:58,320 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 3: Please order the book.

799
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 1: I feel like that would be a like detriment of like, oh,

800
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 1: it's like a threat, Like if you don't order this book,

801
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: we're just coming to your house to make you dinner.

802
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 1: You better order this book.

803
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 3: But you're just gonna come to your house and order

804
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 3: some really good stuff.

805
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: There we go, There we go. I'll get I'll get

806
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: the good sushi from Wegmans.

807
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know you are a good cook, though, don't

808
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 3: sell yourself short.

809
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: I am a good cook. I am a good cook.

810
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: I like the zor are you? We both had something

811
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 1: that we share, so yes, please pre order it, tell

812
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 1: a friend share it. This is a little lot of

813
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: my comfort zone because I'm not I'm even fighting the

814
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: inclination to be like buy it or don't, but I

815
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: know I do want people to buy it. I think

816
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 1: it might be a little bit of a growth edge

817
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 1: for me to self promote as much as I have

818
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: gleaned that you're meant to be doing and need to

819
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: be doing when you have a book out. If y'all

820
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 1: catch me downplaying it, please hold me accountable. And it's

821
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 1: funny because obviously, like you tell all your friends like girl,

822
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: own your accomplishment, brag on yourself, take up space. But

823
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: then when it comes to yourself, sometimes there's like an

824
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 1: inclination to avoid self promotion. If anybody has tips on

825
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,439
Speaker 1: navigating this, I would love to hear them. Let's see

826
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 1: what else? Oh I should mention there are no ads,

827
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: so it on. If you get the audiobook, you'll get

828
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: to cure just content, no ads, which I know I love.

829
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good point.

830
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 2: There are not a lot of great ways to get

831
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: ad free bridget content at the moment, but this might

832
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 2: be the only one, right, And it's it's pretty long.

833
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 2: I think we actually haven't sat down to record all

834
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 2: of it yet. It's all written, but we estimated it

835
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 2: out and it's going to be like eight to ten

836
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 2: hours something like that.

837
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: I think Simon and Schuster said six.

838
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 3: Hours, we'll see sounds a little short to me.

839
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's like getting six to ten episodes of

840
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: the podcast a free. Think of it that way. So

841
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 1: go to Love at First prompt dot AI, please pre order.

842
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: It would mean the world to me. If this book

843
00:45:58,040 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: performs well, it would really open up a lot of

844
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 1: doors to be able to continue to tell the kinds

845
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,760
Speaker 1: of stories that I love telling here on the podcast.

846
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,760
Speaker 1: I cannot thank you all enough for listening. And really,

847
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: I mean it's really the listeners who made this opportunity

848
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: possible for me. So I cannot thank you enough for

849
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: continuing to rock with us. It means the world.

850
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, just to underscore that, I mean, when Simon and

851
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 2: Schuster reached out, a big part of why they were

852
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 2: doing so was because they knew about the show and

853
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 2: the listeners. And yeah, like you said, this would not

854
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 2: have been possible without the listeners of this podcast demonstrating

855
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 2: that they want to hear what you have to say.

856
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 1: Well, I am so grateful. I want to hear what

857
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: all of you have to say. Let me know in

858
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: the comments. Yeah, thanks so much for listening. Please pre

859
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:50,959
Speaker 1: order the book I Love you All. Got a story

860
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 1: about an interesting thing in tech. I just want to

861
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 1: say Hi. You can read us at Hello at tengody

862
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode

863
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 1: at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls on the

864
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production

865
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

866
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: Tarry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almato

867
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If

868
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review.

869
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 4: Us on Apple Podcasts.

870
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

871
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.