Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of My
Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you're welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry
Speaker 1: over there, and that makes this stuff you should know.
Speaker 1: Say the clock tower, that's good? Like that, it's good.
Speaker 1: Just popped into my head. Oh for real. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: wasn't reading this article and doing this research thinking back
Speaker 1: to the future, back to the future. I'm surprised it
Speaker 1: just popped into my head. I actually hadn't thought about
Speaker 1: back to the future at all. But but that's a
Speaker 1: really that's very appropriate, Chuck. But that is not a
Speaker 1: historic district. That is just a landmark building. I think
Speaker 1: that could still it could still qualify for a registry
Speaker 1: on the National Register of Historic Places, it just wouldn't
Speaker 1: be a historic district, which is what we're talking about today.
Speaker 1: Maybe this should just be the end of the podcast,
Speaker 1: the end, Chuck. Have you ever gone into a neighborhood,
Speaker 1: just been walking around town, and all of a sudden
Speaker 1: you realize that you're in the most charming, adorable place
Speaker 1: you've ever been in your life. Well, then you've probably
Speaker 1: been in a historic district. Yeah, this is pretty cool.
Speaker 1: I feel like this. We haven't done one like this
Speaker 1: in a while. Do you like this? When I was
Speaker 1: fully expecting you to say like this so much? I
Speaker 1: love historic places, I know, but sometimes Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know why I thought that, but I'm glad that you
Speaker 1: I'm glad that it panned out. I actually selected it
Speaker 1: because I knew you were gonna hate it, so, you know,
Speaker 1: eggs on my face. This is I don't know, kind
Speaker 1: of harkened back to some of our episodes we used
Speaker 1: to do, like row houses and shotgun houses. Uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that stuff. Yeah, yeah, shotgun houses. We did do
Speaker 1: a full episode on shotgun houses and their architectural importance.
Speaker 1: I thought that was a pretty good episode. I agreed.
Speaker 1: I think we released it as a select recently, too,
Speaker 1: didn't we m I don't think I did. But that
Speaker 1: might have been one of your picks. I don't think
Speaker 1: I did. Jerry ghost producer. We need to let Jerry
Speaker 1: select him some from time to time. Jerry didn't have
Speaker 1: time for that stuff. That's fine. She needs nothing else
Speaker 1: on her plate besides, so that's true, and overseeing the
Speaker 1: largest podcast program in the world, Yeah, it's pretty impressive years.
Speaker 1: Jerry said, thank you. Yes she does. She's aid, thank
Speaker 1: your holding me so super in her mouth. So, um,
Speaker 1: I think I've already kind of gotten the intro out
Speaker 1: of the way where I asked if you've been in
Speaker 1: a charming area and said, you've probably been in a
Speaker 1: historic district. Well, I mean there's a good chance that
Speaker 1: you have if you've been in the United States, because
Speaker 1: they're more than twenty of them. Yeah, that's a lot.
Speaker 1: I mean there's all over the place. And you might
Speaker 1: say like, okay, well that's great. Who this is an
Speaker 1: area that has been designated to have some sort of
Speaker 1: historic significance. Um, can I please go to sleep now?
Speaker 1: It will say no, no, please don't go to sleep yet,
Speaker 1: because there's a lot more to it. And in one
Speaker 1: of the more surprising twists you're ever going to have
Speaker 1: in your entire life, it's actually controversial historic districts can
Speaker 1: be Oh yeah, yeah, did you not read that one article? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I was just being coy. Okay, my stomach just bottomed out,
Speaker 1: didn't terror. So should we talk about Charleston, South Carolina? Yes,
Speaker 1: a place where I well I didn't go there. I
Speaker 1: went to the beach near there. Oh the Isle of
Speaker 1: Palms just a few weeks ago. Oh yeah, but we
Speaker 1: were within uh spitting distance of Charleston, South Carolina. Why
Speaker 1: would you spit on Charleston. I wouldn't. I love it.
Speaker 1: Bill Murray lives there, for God's sakes, Yeah he does.
Speaker 1: Apparently he's a man about town there, and I think
Speaker 1: his family lives there too. Yeah, that's why he lives here. Ohtah.
Speaker 1: So Uh they formed the very first historic district in
Speaker 1: the United States. Yeah, they established the Board of Architectural
Speaker 1: Review And this quote here is pretty great. Uh, this
Speaker 1: is the official quote from that Architectural Review Board. Can
Speaker 1: you please read it in the mid Atlantic accent? Mid Atlantic?
Speaker 1: Why that? Because that's the that's the one, the old
Speaker 1: timey one, okay that you're probably going to use. I
Speaker 1: was going to do an old Southern thing. Oh that's okay. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: that's way more, way better. The preservation and protection of
Speaker 1: the old historic and architecturally worthy structures and quaint neighborhoods,
Speaker 1: which in pought distinct aspect of the city of Charleston.
Speaker 1: That is, that was beautiful. They actually have quaint neighborhoods
Speaker 1: in their charge. Yeah, right, so I mean, like, from
Speaker 1: what I've read too, Charleston like actually is legitimately interested
Speaker 1: in its architecture and preserving its architecture. Yeah, although, as
Speaker 1: we'll see later, there are some people that think Charleston
Speaker 1: didn't do it right. Oh is that right? Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: in the article as okay, so, or that they're overdoing it.
Speaker 1: That's how I took it. Yeah, sure, okay, cool cool. So,
Speaker 1: but Charleston was the first one to basically say, this
Speaker 1: is historically significant architecture. This is a historically a significant area,
Speaker 1: and we want to make sure that it stays that way.
Speaker 1: So we're going to add a layer of protection, legal
Speaker 1: protection over this area that the rest of the city
Speaker 1: doesn't have. And within five years the word had spread
Speaker 1: to New Orleans and they said, that's a pretty good idea.
Speaker 1: Chief We're going to do that for the French Quarter.
Speaker 1: It is my New Orleans accent. Oh is that it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, and that you know, what they're basically saying
Speaker 1: is is that it can be either one. It can
Speaker 1: and it all depends on your local jurisdictions, which we'll
Speaker 1: get to. But historically or aesthetically, these buildings in this area,
Speaker 1: they're linked together, right, And so the Charleston thing basically
Speaker 1: provided the Charleston and then in New Orleans when basically
Speaker 1: provided the groundwork, which was this area is protected, and
Speaker 1: we're going to form a board who was charged with
Speaker 1: making sure that it stays this way as much as possible.
Speaker 1: We're gonna vest some legal authority into them. And these
Speaker 1: people are who you have to go through if you
Speaker 1: want to do anything significantly um uh, altering to the
Speaker 1: exterior of your place, if you live in this area
Speaker 1: or have a business there, right, or maybe not even significantly,
Speaker 1: depending on where you are. So kind of like you know,
Speaker 1: plotted along this idea. It was around for a couple
Speaker 1: of decades, and then this whole process of urban renewal
Speaker 1: that was kicked off after the highways started being built.
Speaker 1: Um in part because of the highways, because people were saying, wait,
Speaker 1: you're gonna you're gonna blow right through, you know, the
Speaker 1: Lower east Side in Chinatown with this highway in in Manhattan.
Speaker 1: We don't want you to do that. This is worth protecting,
Speaker 1: So build your highway elsewhere. And then also as the
Speaker 1: highways were built and traffic started being rerouted away from
Speaker 1: other towns, um these other towns that used to be
Speaker 1: thriving sorry to fall into disrepair. Some people are saying like, hey,
Speaker 1: let's knock down these old buildings and build new ones
Speaker 1: and maybe business will come back. Um it. It initiated
Speaker 1: this idea that no, no, we've got some historic stuff
Speaker 1: here and we need to protect it. And it really
Speaker 1: started to kick off in earnest in the in the fifties,
Speaker 1: and by nineteen fifty six the federales had gotten involved
Speaker 1: and through the National Park Service established the National Historic
Speaker 1: Preservation Act that said, you, MPs, you're in charge of
Speaker 1: designating what's his an historic site and what's not. That's right,
Speaker 1: and uh in nineteen sixty six they created the National
Speaker 1: Register of Historic Places run by the National Parks or
Speaker 1: not run. But I guess just sort of maintained. Sorry, yes,
Speaker 1: I said nineteen fifty six. I'm in nineteen sixty six. Okay,
Speaker 1: I got everything else right, Yeah, that's right. So, um
Speaker 1: here's the deal. You can be listed on the National Register.
Speaker 1: And that's really like that doesn't I mean it means something.
Speaker 1: I don't want to say. It doesn't mean a whole lot.
Speaker 1: But if you really want to protect something, you have
Speaker 1: to go with your local historic district. You have to
Speaker 1: create and protect it locally. That's a very big deal.
Speaker 1: But we're gonna go over both national and state, which
Speaker 1: is sort of like national and then local, which is
Speaker 1: pretty different it actually is, but it's really it's impressive
Speaker 1: that the local level is the one that has the
Speaker 1: real teeth as far as historic districts are concerned, as
Speaker 1: it should be so, but most people want to start
Speaker 1: out with the national district at the very least, because
Speaker 1: there's a certain amount of cache to it to having
Speaker 1: your place designated as a national historic um either structure, district,
Speaker 1: or area. But there's there's multiple things that can fall
Speaker 1: under or be um logged onto the Register of Historic Places.
Speaker 1: Apparently in other countries they have similar registers, but they'll
Speaker 1: include things like uh, events, um, people, just not necessarily
Speaker 1: things or objects. But in the United States there's a
Speaker 1: real emphasis on place and situation and buildings in particular.
Speaker 1: And so if you're on the National Register of Historic Places,
Speaker 1: you are two things. You're an object and you're inanimate,
Speaker 1: and you probably are in situated in a specific area.
Speaker 1: You're like where you are what you are is kind
Speaker 1: of tied to the area you're around. That's the real
Speaker 1: focus of the United States National Register of Historic Places.
Speaker 1: That's right. So there are five overall categories. Buildings, it's
Speaker 1: pretty obvious. Structures also kind of obvious, but that could
Speaker 1: be it says in here, that could even be an
Speaker 1: aircraft as a structure. Yeah. I saw that there's a
Speaker 1: grain elevator in the Fox, Illinois that's protected because it's
Speaker 1: an example of the transition between one story and two
Speaker 1: story grain elevators. Say, it is amazing, and I don't
Speaker 1: want to yuck anybody's ye. That's the thing about this,
Speaker 1: like to me, like if you can see, chuck, I'm
Speaker 1: bleeding a little bit out of the corner of my
Speaker 1: eye from being bored and even saying that sentence. But
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are people out there really appreciate the
Speaker 1: different architecture of grain elevators. And that's the point. It
Speaker 1: means that if it's on the National um Register of
Speaker 1: his Story Places, it is important to some group of people.
Speaker 1: And so don't yuck there, yum, even if you find
Speaker 1: it's boring, agreed, because they might find what you find
Speaker 1: interesting is boring. Number three, It can be an object.
Speaker 1: Number four, It can be a site. And this is
Speaker 1: a big one, uh in the United States because like
Speaker 1: Civil War battle fields, UM, stuff like that Applach and trail, Yeah,
Speaker 1: or MLK Historic site. Sure, it's like a bunch of
Speaker 1: well we'll tell you we'll talk about that later. Or
Speaker 1: it can be a district, which is basically some kind
Speaker 1: of combination of those first four UM or just let
Speaker 1: me group like you know, the street has has ten houses,
Speaker 1: ten ten beautiful Victorian houses are all built by the
Speaker 1: same architect and so this is, well, we're going to
Speaker 1: consider this a district. Right, So like maybe in each
Speaker 1: of those instances, if one of those houses was in
Speaker 1: a neighborhood, it might qualify for UM designation as a
Speaker 1: historic building. But if you put them together, because they're together,
Speaker 1: they form this district, which is you know, the some
Speaker 1: of these parts forms something larger and that connects them
Speaker 1: and UM there's a couple of qualifications that they have
Speaker 1: to meet to to be part or listed on the
Speaker 1: National Register UM. Almost without exception, they have to be
Speaker 1: fifty years old. I think the law is that, UM
Speaker 1: it has to be exceptionally important to be younger than
Speaker 1: fifty years old and still be designated on the Historic
Speaker 1: places register, that's right. Uh. The other thing it has
Speaker 1: to be as significant, which sounds kind of broad, but
Speaker 1: um and and I guess it kind of is, because
Speaker 1: significance is in the eye of the beholder. But that's
Speaker 1: why we have boards and things like that to determine
Speaker 1: whether or not they think it's significant to behold things
Speaker 1: for us. And then finally it's got to be evaluated
Speaker 1: that's significant and historic context, which kind of speaks for itself,
Speaker 1: like it did any great history happen there? Um? You know,
Speaker 1: was this Bob Dylan's house in Minnesota when he was
Speaker 1: a child. Although I don't know if that's on the list.
Speaker 1: I just threw that out there. It could be. I
Speaker 1: mean it could be that's that's a that's a home run.
Speaker 1: But say, like let's say you said, um, well this
Speaker 1: this building used to house soda shop, a soda shop
Speaker 1: that made pretty good chocolate malts. Um and so it's
Speaker 1: representative of that time. Well, if you were on the
Speaker 1: board looking at this application, you would look around and
Speaker 1: try to put it in context, like, yes, people liked
Speaker 1: chocolate malts at soda shops at one period in American history,
Speaker 1: But was this the place where chocolate malts were in
Speaker 1: wanted or is this the place where everyone widely agreed
Speaker 1: made the best chocolate malted It's like no, Like it
Speaker 1: has a history, but not necessarily significant history in context
Speaker 1: of the larger era that it's a part of, So
Speaker 1: it would probably get passed over. Yeah, like the four
Speaker 1: sort of historic context that you you have, it's not
Speaker 1: shoeing necessarily, but you have a good chance if if
Speaker 1: something important historically happened there, like this is the place
Speaker 1: where so and so was shot and killed or born
Speaker 1: perhaps who on a more up note, okay, uh, did
Speaker 1: someone live here that was significant? George Washington slept here?
Speaker 1: Sure or associated with them? Didn't have to live there necessarily? Um,
Speaker 1: is it related to a certain architectural period or method
Speaker 1: of construction? Like that's a that's a big one for
Speaker 1: the Park Service. Sure, like this is the um this
Speaker 1: is the last house to be used that used plaster
Speaker 1: and laugh for their walls. Or there's a there's a
Speaker 1: college in Florida called Florida Southern College that is like
Speaker 1: the entire campus was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. So
Speaker 1: that is clearly going to to be accepted on the
Speaker 1: National Register or Finally, Um, was there information at this
Speaker 1: place that is historically important? Yeah? Or might there be
Speaker 1: because they can afford protection to say, like an archaeological
Speaker 1: site that's a known archaeological site that they haven't really
Speaker 1: dug yet, Like, we'll find it right there, saying there's
Speaker 1: a pretty good potential that some information or history or
Speaker 1: historical significance will be yielded from investigation of the site,
Speaker 1: but we want to protect it now before developers come in.
Speaker 1: That's right. Here's the thing though, if you want to
Speaker 1: be a historic district, um, that doesn't like if you
Speaker 1: if you want to say, like these three square blocks
Speaker 1: or historic district, that doesn't mean that every single property
Speaker 1: in there is what's called a contributing property to that district. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're non contributing properties are allowed. Sure, Like if you
Speaker 1: have the those fifteen Victorian houses on a block, and
Speaker 1: then there's the one, you know, m the one modern McMansion, right,
Speaker 1: that's non contributing. I think we can all agree. But
Speaker 1: it doesn't disqualify the rest of the area necessarily. It
Speaker 1: just it depends on um. From what I've seen, it's
Speaker 1: very much a subjective measure. How much that McMansion detracts
Speaker 1: from the field or the um authenticity of the rest
Speaker 1: of the site what they call um integrity. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: really kind of interesting, I think, because all the stuff
Speaker 1: is subjective, but the integrity there is how that the
Speaker 1: physical characteristics of that property reflect, like on this day,
Speaker 1: reflect that significance historically, right, So like if you have
Speaker 1: that row of Victorian homes, but every single one of
Speaker 1: them was altered in the sixties or the seventies or
Speaker 1: the eighties, and the people inside made some really weird
Speaker 1: decisions and so altered the interior the exterior of these homes.
Speaker 1: That yes, they were all part of this Victorian era,
Speaker 1: and they were once pretty good examples of it. They
Speaker 1: aren't any longer. Even though it qualifies for all these
Speaker 1: other things, it would not be considered um a site
Speaker 1: with integrity, and it might get passed over unless everyone
Speaker 1: agreed to restore the houses back to that Victorian era.
Speaker 1: That's the saddest letter to get, I think, is I'm
Speaker 1: sorry you've been denied because your property has no integrity
Speaker 1: pretty pretty much, you know, and you, sir, do not either.
Speaker 1: That's how they finish every letter like that. Should we
Speaker 1: take a break and talk about how you might create
Speaker 1: a historic district. There is one other thing before we do, Chuck,
Speaker 1: I think it's a fine idea. I'm not shooting down
Speaker 1: your idea, but I do want to point out that
Speaker 1: um areas have to be unified, not necessarily physically, visually geographically,
Speaker 1: but somehow they have to be linked to be considered
Speaker 1: a district. All right, now you wanna take a break, yes, Okay,
Speaker 1: if you want to know, then you're in luck. Just
Speaker 1: listen to don't chuck susion. Alright, So if you're a
Speaker 1: person and you live, let's just take us for instance,
Speaker 1: Like let's say I wanted to get my house in
Speaker 1: my neighborhood and in Atlanta recognize as it or my
Speaker 1: block as a historic National Historic district. Okay uh. And
Speaker 1: the real reason I want to do this is because
Speaker 1: of the street near my house. They're going to expand,
Speaker 1: and it's a real bummer because they're gonna have to
Speaker 1: tear down, um a few of the houses that are
Speaker 1: really what I think are significant, and they might take
Speaker 1: possession of that little strip of land that you've been
Speaker 1: exercising squatting on. Yea. More importantly, they will take my
Speaker 1: little strip of land, right Okay, so what would you do, like,
Speaker 1: what what are you gonna do? And and um as
Speaker 1: step one check to protect your home well to place
Speaker 1: it on the National Register. I would start at the
Speaker 1: state uh, the state Historic Preservation Officer, and this is
Speaker 1: a person every state has one. You can go to
Speaker 1: the NPS website to find out who yours is and
Speaker 1: get in touch. And they're basically gonna help you out
Speaker 1: with I mean, you're gonna you're gonna plead your case,
Speaker 1: of course, but they're gonna help you fill out this
Speaker 1: form um explaining why. I mean, they may say listen,
Speaker 1: don't even bother, But what they're supposed to do is
Speaker 1: help assess whether or not it might be eligible and
Speaker 1: help you fill out all your national forms to send in. Right,
Speaker 1: they might say like how old your house? And if
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, it's Bill in the nineties, it's still
Speaker 1: pretty nice, they'll be like, don't don't bother, that's right.
Speaker 1: But um, you're since you have never done this before,
Speaker 1: your dinghis at it and they're there to help you
Speaker 1: figure this out and how to do it right. They're
Speaker 1: not the ones who were going to judge this. A
Speaker 1: board will and typically a state board um for a
Speaker 1: state historic preservation board. Their review board is made up
Speaker 1: of people who know what they're talking about, architects, historians, archaeologists, anthropologists,
Speaker 1: people who have been trained in this stuff, who can say, yeah,
Speaker 1: this actually isn't that great. There's a much better example
Speaker 1: of it, you know, a couple of blocks over. As
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, why don't we go to the
Speaker 1: other place and make that a historic district? And then
Speaker 1: you're like, no snobs, but um, the the officer that
Speaker 1: you are contacting, it's their job to help you get there,
Speaker 1: your application in, in state your case, and then get
Speaker 1: it in front of the review board, who will then
Speaker 1: take it from there and say this is a great idea,
Speaker 1: there's a terrible idea, or I don't care either way,
Speaker 1: and it's time for lunch. Approved, that's right. And this
Speaker 1: is again going for that national register. And one reason
Speaker 1: you might want to do this is because here's the thing.
Speaker 1: It's it's sort of a badge of honor um like
Speaker 1: we said before, and we'll we'll uh, we'll talk about
Speaker 1: again later about the local one. That's one you really want.
Speaker 1: But if you are on the National Register, it does
Speaker 1: provide you with some legal protections federally, So if that
Speaker 1: road is a is a federal highway project, then it
Speaker 1: could protect your house, or even better, even if it's
Speaker 1: a local or a state project, if it's getting any
Speaker 1: federal funding whatsoever. The same thing applies sure where they
Speaker 1: have to say what's going to be the impact on
Speaker 1: any historic district of this project, and if the impact
Speaker 1: is deemed too great, the project won't go forward. So
Speaker 1: there is there are some protections for it, but for
Speaker 1: the most part it's kind of symbolic, and there's a
Speaker 1: little bit of cache. And you know, you can put
Speaker 1: it on your zealo page that your house is part
Speaker 1: of a national historic district, right, but you can't. They
Speaker 1: can't say, I mean you can. You can live in
Speaker 1: a historic a national historic home, and you can let
Speaker 1: it fall into disrepair and like garbage. And they can't
Speaker 1: come in and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're you're on
Speaker 1: the national register. You can't let your house fall into
Speaker 1: disrepair like this, right, Yeah, clean yourself up. You got
Speaker 1: a stain on your shirt, get a shape, what's your problem.
Speaker 1: They don't say that that those are individual property rights
Speaker 1: and it's only up to local governments to infringe on
Speaker 1: individual property rights, not the state or federal government. So
Speaker 1: while the state or federal government will have laws restricting
Speaker 1: its own activities in regards to historic districts, like expanding
Speaker 1: a road or something like that. Yeah, if you get
Speaker 1: on the National Register of Historic Places, your whole neighborhood
Speaker 1: gets on there. Your neighbor can do whatever they want
Speaker 1: with their house. Still, So if that was your whole
Speaker 1: employ all along Chuck to really keep your neighbor from
Speaker 1: doing something like, say, I don't know, putting a second
Speaker 1: story on their house. Um, you're going to find that
Speaker 1: you have been frustrated. That's right. Um, you can go
Speaker 1: to the state, But the state is basically like federal
Speaker 1: Um as far as protections and stuff like that go.
Speaker 1: Where where the real teeth come in is with the
Speaker 1: local historic districts, and it is very different. They don't
Speaker 1: have to meet the same guidelines. A lot of times
Speaker 1: very similar, but they don't have to have the same
Speaker 1: exact guidelines as the national Historic districts do. So the
Speaker 1: first thing that you're gonna need, though, is there's got
Speaker 1: to be an ordinance, a local preservation ordinance, which is
Speaker 1: basically just, hey, here are the rules on how we
Speaker 1: do this around here. Here, here's how we're gonna identify
Speaker 1: these houses. And here's what it means if you have
Speaker 1: one right, so, and this isn't like this is like
Speaker 1: square one stuff like. This is what a city has
Speaker 1: to do before it ever creates its very first historic district.
Speaker 1: If your city has already done this, then you would
Speaker 1: just basically go through the same process that you would
Speaker 1: with the National Register in applying to get historic designation
Speaker 1: for your neighborhood in your city from your local unit pality.
Speaker 1: But if they've never done it before, they've got to
Speaker 1: create new legislation for it, new laws protecting you know,
Speaker 1: historic areas. And then they also have to set up
Speaker 1: a preservation commission to basically the same thing that that Charleston,
Speaker 1: South Carolina did all the way back in that's right.
Speaker 1: So you're gonna go in front of the commission. Uh,
Speaker 1: they're gonna hold some public hearings where people can come
Speaker 1: and argue the case for or against. Yeah, because not
Speaker 1: everybody likes this idea. No, not everyone does. As we'll see, Um,
Speaker 1: you have to have in fact, it's it's kind of hard.
Speaker 1: You have to have. Like the community has really got
Speaker 1: to be behind this in order for this to go through. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in most cases, from what I've seen, you need a
Speaker 1: majority of homeowners and business owners in the area to
Speaker 1: agree to this. And I think even if the opposition
Speaker 1: is particularly vocal and mad about it, it's they still
Speaker 1: might be able to derail local ordinance designation. That's right.
Speaker 1: But it's all going to be considered by the commission. Uh,
Speaker 1: and they're gonna make that recommendation into the officials. They're
Speaker 1: gonna say, you know you're gonna reject this. Are you're
Speaker 1: gonna say it's okay? Is it all great or not?
Speaker 1: And here's a deal. If you get named local historic district.
Speaker 1: This is when um, they can say, oh no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you live in a historic home in this district. You
Speaker 1: can't let it fall out of disrepair. You can't. There
Speaker 1: was this one case where was it in Maryland? I
Speaker 1: think where I guess these front porch columns, Um, we're
Speaker 1: being replaced by a family and they skimped a little
Speaker 1: because what is expensive and used, whether these fiberglass or something.
Speaker 1: And they said, no, no, no no, no, you can't do
Speaker 1: that because you live in the historic district and you
Speaker 1: have to use Uh, these original materials to preserve this house. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you gotta use you would, like you said. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe they were like, we don't want to cut down
Speaker 1: a tree, or maybe they were just cheaping out, but um,
Speaker 1: I think they sued or yeah, I believe they sued
Speaker 1: in order to try to keep them. But that's a
Speaker 1: really tip goal. Um. Part of any local historic district
Speaker 1: ordinance is if you're going to make any kind of repairs,
Speaker 1: especially significant repairs, any alterations to the exterior, anything like that,
Speaker 1: you need to use historically accurate materials. Well, you have
Speaker 1: to submit it for approval to a local design review
Speaker 1: board too, right, Sorry I got ahead of us. So
Speaker 1: the first thing you have to do is say, I
Speaker 1: want to replace the columns in the front of my
Speaker 1: house because they're falling apart. I want to replace them. Um,
Speaker 1: can I please do that? Please sir? Please let me
Speaker 1: and the local review board or commission will analyze this
Speaker 1: and they'll say, sure you can. But this is what
Speaker 1: they have to look like. This is the materials they
Speaker 1: have to um they have to be made out of,
Speaker 1: and this is the color that they have to be painted.
Speaker 1: And you have to follow that or else you can
Speaker 1: be fine. They can place a lean on your property,
Speaker 1: and um, the penalty can be pretty stiff. Actually, yeah,
Speaker 1: And here's the thing, like I can at least understand
Speaker 1: this and what we'll when we'll talk later about you know,
Speaker 1: freedoms to do what you want with property that you own.
Speaker 1: But this I can stomach a little bit. And we've
Speaker 1: talked about homeowners associations before. Those are the ones that
Speaker 1: really get me to where it is not historically significant.
Speaker 1: It is an ex urb with seven hundred houses and
Speaker 1: a subdivision that require you to have the same mailbox. Right.
Speaker 1: So the in that sense, having a homeowners association covenant
Speaker 1: UM and having a historic preservation district on a local
Speaker 1: level where they both have teeth that they can actually,
Speaker 1: you know, find you or tell you what to do
Speaker 1: to the exterior of your house or your yard. The
Speaker 1: point is the same in this sense, and that they're
Speaker 1: trying to keep things a certain way at least. I
Speaker 1: think what you're saying is, at least with the historic district,
Speaker 1: they're trying to preserve something that has been deemed historically important,
Speaker 1: whereas with the suburb, it's just they want to make
Speaker 1: sure everybody's lawn is cut or that just looks the same,
Speaker 1: or no one paints their house pink or whatever, but
Speaker 1: they have the same aim, which is, like, this is
Speaker 1: what we're all saying is very nice and pleasant. I
Speaker 1: just watched Pleasantville last night for like the five hundred times.
Speaker 1: It's a good movie, but oh man, it's so good.
Speaker 1: But um, we've all agreed that this is pleasant and
Speaker 1: this is what we want our area to look like,
Speaker 1: and then this is how it's going to stay, and
Speaker 1: you can't change it. And if you do, you have
Speaker 1: to petition, and this review board can tell you know
Speaker 1: you can't do that. Yeah, And of course I know
Speaker 1: that the answer to my problem with these the ex
Speaker 1: orbits don't don't move there, then like you know the
Speaker 1: stuff going in, then don't buy a house in that neighborhood.
Speaker 1: And I think most people who do buy out there
Speaker 1: are pretty aware of that, and I think some of
Speaker 1: them are looking for that because it tends to protect
Speaker 1: property values. Like you're never going to have a neighbor
Speaker 1: who just parks like a boat with a moth eaten
Speaker 1: cover over it in their front driveway for five years. Um,
Speaker 1: Like that's just not gonna happen out there. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, it's also eye bleedingly boring to live
Speaker 1: out there as well. Can I also just say that
Speaker 1: I love that you're Halloween October movie watching its pleasant Bill?
Speaker 1: Do you know I watched last night The Texas Chainsaw
Speaker 1: Massacre the original? Yeah, I had never seen it. Can
Speaker 1: you believe that I had never seen it? That's really surprising?
Speaker 1: What did you think? Uh? Wow, it was it was disturbing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that hammer scene that he drags out for like twenty
Speaker 1: minutes of the hour and twenty minute long movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was tough. Um, and I realized that, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm prepping for a movie crush h slasher movie special,
Speaker 1: But um, I didn't. I never watched a lot of
Speaker 1: that stuff growing up. I don't know if it's because
Speaker 1: I was churchy, but just there that maybe so because
Speaker 1: and I don't think it was like, oh I thought
Speaker 1: I would be in trouble. I think just like the
Speaker 1: people I was around didn't really get into that stuff.
Speaker 1: So you missed a like crucial window in horror movie
Speaker 1: watching because I can see coming into it as an adult,
Speaker 1: you're like, like you said, this is highly disturbing stuff,
Speaker 1: and this is this isn't fun like you like. It
Speaker 1: has to kind of dovetail with that period of your
Speaker 1: life where you feel immortal um and so it kind
Speaker 1: of bounces off of you, the disturbing nous of it,
Speaker 1: and then as you get to be an adult, you
Speaker 1: can kind of start to appreciate the truly disturbing aspects
Speaker 1: of it, but it's still tempered by that, you know,
Speaker 1: teens and twenties something doing that you remember as well,
Speaker 1: that just coming into it like this, you know, late
Speaker 1: forties is not a good time to start watching Texas. Man.
Speaker 1: I feel for you. I liked it. I mean I
Speaker 1: thought pretty much appreciate it. It is well it's a
Speaker 1: classic alright, I feel like we should take a break
Speaker 1: and uh, we'll come back and finish up about historic
Speaker 1: districts right after this. If you want to know, then
Speaker 1: you're in luck. Just chuck, alright, chuck. So we've kind
Speaker 1: of hinted a little bit at the idea that not
Speaker 1: everybody's on board within historic district and for you know,
Speaker 1: getting a real designation, like a local designation where there's
Speaker 1: actual restrictions on you. The person who owns the home
Speaker 1: um can or can't do things without permission from a
Speaker 1: board of people you might not even have ever met
Speaker 1: in your life. Um. You the for it to be
Speaker 1: really successful, you need the community behind that to to
Speaker 1: get that designation. And everybody going in with their eyes
Speaker 1: open saying, okay, you know this is We're willing to
Speaker 1: spend the extra money on wood. We're willing to um
Speaker 1: spend the extra money on you know, a hand handmade
Speaker 1: window if one breaks, because we're not allowed to replace
Speaker 1: the original old single pane windows that make it twenty
Speaker 1: degrees in our house all winter long. Right, Like we're
Speaker 1: we're go. We're going in with our eyes wide open
Speaker 1: like that. But even if most of the community does,
Speaker 1: there's probably still going to be somebody who says, I'm
Speaker 1: a libertarian, I don't believe in this kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: and I'm really not happy about this. And that person
Speaker 1: is basically going to have an historic district shoved down
Speaker 1: their throat. Yeah. Um, and you you'll probably not you,
Speaker 1: but if you are that person, you will be the
Speaker 1: one that's vocal. If you know about the meeting and
Speaker 1: you're there and you want to make hay, but you
Speaker 1: can be overruled. Uh, and all of a sudden you
Speaker 1: are subject to those whims libertarians hate that. Well, there's
Speaker 1: a bunch of sides to this coin here. Um. One is,
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of factors. One is, let's talk about
Speaker 1: the pros. How about that? Yeah, I mean one of
Speaker 1: the pros is many times, uh, it increases property values
Speaker 1: because there's a standard that has to be upheld in
Speaker 1: your house and those around you won't be falling into disrepair. Right.
Speaker 1: And Plus, if you are like if you're if you're
Speaker 1: housing prices are stable and rising in relation to the
Speaker 1: rest of the town, your tax base or your taxes
Speaker 1: also tend to rise to and so these areas very
Speaker 1: quickly start to become very wealthy areas of town. So
Speaker 1: it's a wait for for people to basically secure their
Speaker 1: investment in their property. Yeah. And I guess we're talking
Speaker 1: about disadvantages mixed in here too, because there are some
Speaker 1: people that say, hey, in the US, that's can be
Speaker 1: code for keeping the wealth in the in the pocket
Speaker 1: of the few, because who's going to be owning these
Speaker 1: houses are people that have a lot of money. Yeah.
Speaker 1: There's a guy named Kristen caps Um who wrote an
Speaker 1: article on City lab back in two thousand and sixteen
Speaker 1: that basically said the the um inequality and housing in
Speaker 1: the housing pricing crisis late it at the feet of
Speaker 1: historic preservation districts, which is pretty preposterous in a lot
Speaker 1: of ways, but he did make some really he sure,
Speaker 1: but the I think that his point was, like, just
Speaker 1: do away with historic preservation for districts for neighborhoods, because
Speaker 1: most of these things are covered by zoning laws that
Speaker 1: say you can only have single family homes in here. Well,
Speaker 1: only certain people can afford really expensive single family homes
Speaker 1: in UM with really high taxes, and so it keeps
Speaker 1: out people who would otherwise love to enjoy this amazing
Speaker 1: neighborhood with this, you know, these mature oak trees and
Speaker 1: beautiful sidewalks and neighbors walking around being friendly, and trader
Speaker 1: Joes on every corner, or really good schools that there.
Speaker 1: These neighborhoods shouldn't just be for extremely wealthy people. But
Speaker 1: in saying that it's only single family housing allowed in this,
Speaker 1: no one can ever build a high rise with a
Speaker 1: bunch of apartments that those people who who might be
Speaker 1: able to afford to live in and enjoy the neighborhood.
Speaker 1: And so there's so on the one hand, they're like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: we don't want high rises here that it has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with the historical architecture and it's a blight.
Speaker 1: And other people say, well, you're also just keeping poor
Speaker 1: people out too, So it's it's um, it's definitely double
Speaker 1: edged sword because that's that's very much accurate. But it's
Speaker 1: certainly not the cause or even a major solution to
Speaker 1: the housing crisis either. Yeah, and there are Republicans in
Speaker 1: Michigan that are trying to do away with a lot
Speaker 1: of these um I don't know about districts, but maybe
Speaker 1: potential future designations, because their whole thing is like, you
Speaker 1: don't want the federal government coming in here and telling
Speaker 1: you what you can do and what you can't do
Speaker 1: with your house, although it wouldn't be the federal government
Speaker 1: and it would be local, be local, but these must
Speaker 1: be state reps uh and local reps. But they're saying,
Speaker 1: let's let's do away with some of the stuff, like
Speaker 1: Michigan has far too many of these, and your freedoms
Speaker 1: are being squashed, right exactly. You want to paint your
Speaker 1: ho spink, then you should be able to. And so
Speaker 1: some some preservation district commissions are a little more laid
Speaker 1: back than others. Apparently in Georgia. Um, if you it's
Speaker 1: up to you to pick what color you want to
Speaker 1: paint your house. If the repairs you're doing are minor,
Speaker 1: you don't have to have a certificate of appropriateness. And
Speaker 1: then in other places it is a staunches is kind
Speaker 1: of an understatement. Um, old Town Alexandria very famous, Like
Speaker 1: you can't do anything to the outside of your your
Speaker 1: house in this old town district. But as a result,
Speaker 1: it's an extraordinary it's an extraordinarily charming place to be
Speaker 1: in the Like tons of people who visit d C
Speaker 1: make the trip over to Old Town just to go
Speaker 1: shopping or to eat, or to do whatever, just walk around. Um.
Speaker 1: So that's another benefit of having an a story preservation district.
Speaker 1: It attracts business or it attracts customers to your businesses,
Speaker 1: and very frequently you'll find an influx of tour some
Speaker 1: dollars coming into this area too. Yeah, and you know
Speaker 1: we've talked about a bit before. The legendary um fabulous
Speaker 1: Fox Theater here in Atlanta are only remaining, like amazing
Speaker 1: huge old school Egyptian style theater. Was it was going
Speaker 1: to be a bank parking lot in the nineteen seventies. Man, like,
Speaker 1: they were literally going to put a parking lot there.
Speaker 1: And I remember when I was a kid, they had
Speaker 1: to save the Fox Theater campaign and it took you know, uh,
Speaker 1: these celebrity benefit concerts to raise money. Ben Vereen did
Speaker 1: he come. I could see it. It was the right
Speaker 1: era that Frank Sinatra came. He was one of the
Speaker 1: big wigs. Really yeah, yeah, Frank came to Atlanta and
Speaker 1: performed and raised money and I was like, no, you
Speaker 1: can't tear down the Fox, guys, that's my Frank. It
Speaker 1: was okay, I should have gone with Sammy. You should
Speaker 1: have done a Charleston accept for Frank. But uh, that's
Speaker 1: the other side of the coin, which is like if
Speaker 1: people don't I mean, there was a time in this
Speaker 1: country in the fifties, sixties, and seventies where that could
Speaker 1: that can very easily happen, and that did happen in
Speaker 1: downtown Atlanta. If you look at old pictures of downtown Atlanta,
Speaker 1: it looked like New York, a smaller version of New
Speaker 1: York City. And uh, you know, now we've gotten some
Speaker 1: of that character back, But there was a period where
Speaker 1: they just tore down everything old in favor of putting
Speaker 1: up these bland white buildings in the name of like
Speaker 1: the future, and they called the urban renewal. And thankfully,
Speaker 1: in the last ten twenty years, I'm not sure where
Speaker 1: the idea came from, people said, no, you can have
Speaker 1: the same effect, you can have businesses, you can have
Speaker 1: mixed use development by reusing and rehabilitating these these same buildings.
Speaker 1: You have to tear it down and build something new.
Speaker 1: It's usually cheaper to do that, but it's much better
Speaker 1: if we do it the other way and kind of
Speaker 1: preserve the history. And that's definitely become the push lately.
Speaker 1: But yeah, there was definitely a period in the middle
Speaker 1: of the last century where a lot of stuff was
Speaker 1: torn down and as a result. I was on a
Speaker 1: website I can't remember the name of it um where
Speaker 1: they were listing the most boring cities in the world
Speaker 1: the world chuck, and the first one was Atlanta. What
Speaker 1: the reason. One of the criteria they were using was
Speaker 1: history like history, like, how much history is just kind
Speaker 1: of mixed into the the fabric of the city. And
Speaker 1: part of it is all the tearing down that they
Speaker 1: did in the fifties and sixties, but also part of
Speaker 1: it was um late at the feet of General Sherman,
Speaker 1: who burned the town to the ground and burned up
Speaker 1: a lot of the history as well on the March
Speaker 1: to the Sea. So Atlantis has kind of had a
Speaker 1: twofold um knock around where a lot of historical stuff
Speaker 1: was not preserved and was actually torn down. As a result,
Speaker 1: it lacks a certain amount of character because it compared
Speaker 1: to other cities that have more history, the old twofold
Speaker 1: knock around. Uh yeah, that's that's a dumb I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying this just because this is my hometown.
Speaker 1: Atlanta is not the most boring city in the world.
Speaker 1: In the world. That was in the top ten the
Speaker 1: dumbest thing I've seen ever. Uh well, here's the other
Speaker 1: thing too. I think there is a and this isn't
Speaker 1: necessarily about preserving history, but I think there's just been
Speaker 1: a general return to taste and craftsmanship across the board
Speaker 1: in the last like fifteen years. And some people may
Speaker 1: call it hipsterism or whatever, but you know, people there
Speaker 1: are artists and bakers now, and you know, handcrafted cocktails
Speaker 1: instead of fern bars, and when they are building new buildings,
Speaker 1: they're trying to make them blend in, and I just
Speaker 1: feel like there was a time where I think every
Speaker 1: everyone in America thought the future was just going to
Speaker 1: be sterile and white, and these sterile white buildings were
Speaker 1: going up everywhere, and these and the baseball stadiums that
Speaker 1: were just round white objects. And then starting with Camden
Speaker 1: Yards in Baltimore, they started building these old style ballparks
Speaker 1: and that's all you see now, And I think that's
Speaker 1: just across the board. Is I think people are respecting
Speaker 1: craftsmanship in history a lot more than they did for
Speaker 1: a long long time, like decades. I agree, But it
Speaker 1: is true that that comes at a price, because if
Speaker 1: you look at those neighborhoods where you know they are
Speaker 1: being rehabilitated and preserved by the people who are moving
Speaker 1: in there. As they're doing it, um they're raising the
Speaker 1: home values and which also raises the taxes, and so
Speaker 1: people who have traditionally historically lived in these neighborhoods are
Speaker 1: being pushed out of the neighborhood. So so that is
Speaker 1: one part. It's one facet that has yet to be cracked,
Speaker 1: like how do you how do you keep a neighborhood,
Speaker 1: you know, um, mixed as far as like income goes
Speaker 1: or use goes, Like how do you how do you
Speaker 1: really preserve that kind of thing. So so it's not
Speaker 1: just like, yes, we're preserving this neighborhood at the expense
Speaker 1: of the residents who used to live here, because it's
Speaker 1: you know, richer people who are coming in and rehabbing
Speaker 1: areas gent gentrifying basically what we're talking about. Cover that
Speaker 1: in our gent Vacation podcast. Okay, but but that's a
Speaker 1: that's a big thing. So it is a criticism of
Speaker 1: historic preservation, but it's certainly not a reason to do
Speaker 1: away with historic preservation. And one of the other challenges
Speaker 1: I've seen is, Okay, so let's say we're going to
Speaker 1: allow somebody to come in and build a high rise
Speaker 1: in this amazing historic neighborhood. Do you really think they're
Speaker 1: going to be building it for low or mixed income
Speaker 1: people to move into. No, they're gonna build it for
Speaker 1: the wealthiest people who probably have even more money than
Speaker 1: the people who own the houses in this historic district.
Speaker 1: And it's not going to help this housing crisis at all.
Speaker 1: It's just going to exacerbate it and will have ruined
Speaker 1: a perfectly beautiful historic district in the process. We should
Speaker 1: totally do one on gentrification. I agree. I agree. I
Speaker 1: love episodes like these where it's like, oh, what's the resolution?
Speaker 1: There is none yet, had stay tuned everybody. We know
Speaker 1: you're very anti resolution, so I've read before people who
Speaker 1: read fiction, uh tend to be able to deal with
Speaker 1: open ended like endings more than people who don't, which
Speaker 1: is weird because I don't read much fiction these days.
Speaker 1: But I can still, I can still hang with with
Speaker 1: no resolution, no closure, no closure, you got anything else,
Speaker 1: nothing else. You're just waiting for me to stop talking.
Speaker 1: It looks like, maybe, well, if you want to know
Speaker 1: more about historic districts, why don't you go try to
Speaker 1: get your place put on the national register. Why don't
Speaker 1: you as you do that, let us know how it goes.
Speaker 1: Maybe keep us posted um In the meantime, though, first,
Speaker 1: before I tell you how to get in touch with
Speaker 1: us to keep us posted, let's say it's time for
Speaker 1: a listener, ma'am, I'm gonna call this government shutdown. Follow up. Hey, guys,
Speaker 1: I'm a member of the permanent government in d C.
Speaker 1: I thought you did a great job it was great.
Speaker 1: The emphasize the cost of a shutdown is the key thing.
Speaker 1: Most people don't understand. These things aren't to blip. I
Speaker 1: want to point that the effects of the last shutdown
Speaker 1: still aren't over. When we got back to work, we
Speaker 1: were told that it took the agency six months to
Speaker 1: recover from the previous shutdown that lasted sixteen days. And
Speaker 1: these things are exponential, not uh linear. With the thirty
Speaker 1: five days shutdown, we just don't know how long it's
Speaker 1: gonna take to catch up. We have settled into our
Speaker 1: normal and just expect to miss deadlines. People we serve
Speaker 1: regularly understand and are working with us, but I don't
Speaker 1: think the general public gets it. You can't just push
Speaker 1: back all deadlines by thirty five days because new work
Speaker 1: is constantly coming in. There's no pause button just because
Speaker 1: the government is shut down. We're all working to catch up,
Speaker 1: but it hasn't happened. It's not like we can blame
Speaker 1: the shutdown either. People don't understand how work submitted after
Speaker 1: the end of the shutdown can still be affected by it.
Speaker 1: But we can't just double our workload. There's only so
Speaker 1: many hours in a day, and that is from Nate.
Speaker 1: Thanks Nate, it was a nice little follow up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thanks for bringing us down here, right. We had just
Speaker 1: kind of gone out on such a mediocre level, and
Speaker 1: now it's down level. Well, if you want to get
Speaker 1: in touch of this, like Nate and bring us down
Speaker 1: or to keep us posted on how it's going to
Speaker 1: in your quest to get your house or your neighborhood
Speaker 1: on the National Register of Historic Places, you can go
Speaker 1: onto stuff you Should Know dot com and check out
Speaker 1: our social links there, or you can send us an
Speaker 1: email to Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff
Speaker 1: you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio's How
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