1 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Gilaine Maxwell, Madame Herb, the henchman, 2 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: the pimp for billionaire Jeffrey Epstein, literally trolling the school 3 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: yard to put little girls and bring them in for 4 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: Epstein to molest. All done and said, right, case closed, guilty, 5 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: Not so fast, take a listen to our friend Tom 6 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: Winter and me see tonight. In a trial that's centered 7 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: on sexual abuse, two jurors revealed they too have experienced 8 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: abuse their own personal experiences, now pushing Gallaine Maxwell's attorneys 9 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: to ask for a new case at issue. Legal experts 10 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: say whether or not the two were adequately forthcoming about 11 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: their experiences before trial, and identifying himself as Scottie David, 12 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: was one of the jurors. He spoke to several media outlets, 13 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: including the Dailymail dot com. I don't want to call 14 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 1: her a monster. A predator is the right word, David, 15 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: known as Juror Number fifty, says. Other jurors voiced out 16 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: about some of the accusers. Some people were like, how 17 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: can they keep going back? Like why would their moms 18 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: allow them to do that? And I was like, we 19 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: can't judge them based on what they did or didn't do. 20 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: They they're fourteen. They don't really have the wherewithal to 21 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: know really what's right and wrong. A second juror who 22 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: requested anonymity, told The New York Times they were sexually 23 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: abused as a child, and that they had also discussed 24 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: the experience during deliberations. Is the Elane Maxwell guilty vernict doomed? 25 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: I say no for legal reasons. I mean, see Grace, 26 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us 27 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM one eleven got 28 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: an all star panel to make sense of what we 29 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: are learning. As the minutes take by, are there more 30 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: Gerar stating that they have also been victims of molestation? 31 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: And will that jeopardize the guilty verdict? Will there have 32 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: to be a new trial? With me? Doctor Teresa Guil, 33 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 1: professors psychology, has spent years working with child abuse and 34 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: trauma victims. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, 35 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and host 36 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: of Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan on iHeart. Special guests 37 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:38,679 Speaker 1: joining us, Charlie Langston, editor at Daily Mail with Female 38 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: and Wendy Patrick, California, prosecutor, author Red Flags at Wendy 39 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: Patrick PhD dot com, and host of Today with Doctor 40 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: Wendy on KCBQ, first year Charlie Langston. Before I get 41 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: into the legalities of whether this requires a whole new 42 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: trial for Gillaine Maxwell, who no doubt did it over 43 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: and over and over, even molesting some of the little 44 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: girls herself, tell me what's happening this, does you know, Charlie? 45 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: I find that's really hard to believe because I never 46 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: tried a case ever without asking the entire panel. Do 47 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: any of you know anyone, even if it's yourself, a neighbor, 48 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: a family member, that have been a victim of a crime? 49 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: Have any of you been a victim of a crime? 50 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: And the converse to that is, have do you know 51 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: anybody that's been convicted? Anybody? Hint, hint, have you been convicted? 52 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: So I find it really hard to believe that these 53 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: high profile lawyers and veteran prosecutors did not ask that question. Well, 54 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: I think it's worth pointing out that we don't actually 55 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: know for sure right now that that question was not asked. 56 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: What we do know is that jurors have said that 57 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: they were not asked specifically whether they were victims of 58 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: sexual abuse. So the question is whether they interpreted the 59 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: question of have you ever committed a crime? Have you 60 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: ever been the victim of a crime. It may be 61 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: that they did not interpret that question correctly and did 62 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: not feel that their experiences with sexual abuse were the 63 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: correct answer to that. So, you know, if they were 64 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: the victims of sexual abuse and their abuses were never convicted, 65 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: they may not have felt that it was a crime 66 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: that was committed. If that makes sense. Yes, I see 67 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: what you're saying. They could have been molested or abused 68 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: and not realize that that was a crime if it 69 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: were never prosecuted, exactly. Think long story short, do you 70 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: know that song? Winny Patrick, California prosecutor. I feel a 71 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: bad moon coming. I felt by rising. I feel a 72 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: bad moon rising. You know there's trouble on the way. 73 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: Charlie Langston with US dailymail dot com. How many jurors 74 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: do we think we have right now that are coming out? 75 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: We believe that there are at least three. However, there 76 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: is a fourth juror whose sources tell us is also 77 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: under question and may have also been the victim of 78 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: sexual abuse. So, as we heard the first jura who 79 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: said that they were a victim of sexual abuse with 80 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: Scottie David, he spoke to us about his experiences. A 81 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: second juror, who is remaining anonymous, has spoken to The 82 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: New York Times, and we reported over the weekend that 83 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: a third juror has been found by Gee Lane's legal 84 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: team to have experienced sexual abuse. And the really big 85 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: issue here is that both Scottie David and the second 86 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: anonymous jura have admitted that they spoke about their own 87 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: experiences with actual abuse during deliberations, and both of those 88 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: jurors have said that they believed that their stories helped 89 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: to influence the way that the other jurors went about 90 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: their deliberations. Okay, hold on just a moment. I want 91 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: you to hear Gurr Scotty David speaking to dailymail dot 92 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: com ERICATC. You decided to share your story. Presumably that's 93 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 1: something that you'd yes to in the questionnaire. It was 94 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: something that the people were aware of when you were 95 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: selected as a juror. No, they don't ask your sexual 96 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: abuse history. They didn't ask it in the questionnaire. I 97 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: thought in the questionnaire there was a question that asked 98 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: if you were a victim, or if you were a 99 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: friend or a rest a victim. I'm pretty sure it's 100 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: not for forty eight. I don't remember somebody said to 101 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: the questionnaire it's is hey, and there was a question interesting. 102 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess when did you say them that questionnaire? 103 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: Definitely on the first day of jury selection. I would 104 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: have definitely marked yes. But I honestly don't remember that question. 105 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: You're all the sun frighting No. No, I mean, I 106 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: know my face is rags. I can fill the blood, 107 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: but I honestly that's why I answered it that way. 108 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: I don't remember it being there, but I did answer. 109 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: I definitely remember a family or relative or something, but 110 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: being sexually abused. I was honest on all my questions. Okay, 111 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: so he sounds a little unclear on what he remembers. Okay, 112 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: back to you, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. Jurors always talk 113 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: about their own experiences and jurar deliberation jury deliberations. That's 114 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: not uncommon. We expect that to happen. So tell me 115 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: what you see as the big issue here, Wendy Patrick. 116 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: I think the big issue is how these jurors were 117 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: interpreting sexual abuse. You know, I know that if we 118 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: don't break down that term as we often do in deliberations, 119 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: that's actually part of what's charged. If we simply ask 120 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: them in voidear and let it hang out there, I 121 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: can tell you many jurors think it means forced intercourse. 122 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: They don't think about it as being touching, masturbation some 123 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: of the you hate to say, lesser forms of abuse, 124 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: but we have to put them on a spectrum somewhere 125 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: because if jurors are honestly envisioning the rape scenarios, when 126 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: they hear a word like sexual abuse, that kind of 127 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: a term, they're not going to disclose some of the 128 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: types of abuse until they get in the deliberation room. 129 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: So this may be legally significant because it wouldn't necessarily 130 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: indicate dishonesty during the voidear process. Okay, what I'm trying 131 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: to get at is is there going to be a 132 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: brand new trial for Madam herv. Gillay Maxwell, or will 133 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: the state take a cheap plea rather than retry the 134 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: case if it rises to that. Now, the fact that 135 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: jurors during jury deliberations talk about their own personal experiences, 136 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with that that always happens. You expect 137 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: that to happen. You want people to draw on their 138 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: past experiences as they reach a verdict. That's not going 139 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: to be a problem. I want you to listen to 140 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 1: our cut be our friends at CBS News. Before the trial, 141 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: potential jurors were asked to fill out this questionnaire, including 142 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: this question have you ever been the victim of sexual assault? 143 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: One juror, using only his first and middle names, Scottie David, 144 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: told Reuters he can't remember if he disclosed his own 145 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: claims of sex abuse, saying he flew through the initial questionnaire. 146 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: He told Reuters he would have answered the questions honestly. 147 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: Prosecutors told the judge overseeing the trial the statements merit 148 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: attention by the court. Maxwell's lawyers then told the judge 149 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: she can and should order a new trial. A separate 150 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:54,719 Speaker 1: juror told The New York Times they spoke of their 151 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: own sexual abuse during deliberations, which the paper says appeared 152 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: to help shape the jury discussions. And that is absolutely 153 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: all right under the Constitution when yours talk about their 154 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: own past experiences, prime stories with Nancy Grace for all 155 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: of you just joining us bombshell and the Galaine Maxwell conviction. 156 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:39,119 Speaker 1: This woman, according to a jury, according to multiple child victims, 157 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: went out even on school playgrounds, trolling for little girls 158 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: around fourteen that we know of, to bring back to 159 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: her boyfriend, Jeffrey Epstein, the billionaire that hangs out with 160 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: Clinton and Shrump and all sorts of millionaires and very 161 00:10:55,400 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: wealthy influential people for him to molest over and over 162 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: and over until they aged out and he wanted somebody 163 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: even younger. Yes, this is her. She just gets convicted 164 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: finally after a massive federal trial. And now only now 165 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: do the jurors decide they're gonna come forward, And it's like, oh, say, oh, yeah, 166 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 1: I was molested. Well, what about that juror questionnaire? Did 167 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: anybody hear what I just heard? The question number forty 168 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: eight specifically asked, have you ever been the victim of 169 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: sex assault? According to CBS News, now here's the reality 170 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: when you're talking about a jury trial. Back to you, 171 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, A lot of people may have been a 172 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: crime victim. But the issue is can you listen to 173 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: the facts and evidence brought in at trial, not what 174 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: you may have read the paper and render a verdict 175 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: that speaks the truth. That's the question. Doesn't matter if 176 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: you've been a victim, not a victim, if you're black, 177 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: if you're white, if you're a man, if you're a woman, 178 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: if you're a Christian, if you're an atheist, and that 179 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. It's can you render a verdict that speaks 180 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: the truth? Yes, no, Wendy Patrick, Yeah, absolutely, the answer 181 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: is yes. And so the jurors that are talking out 182 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: afterwards are basically saying what they said influenced the other 183 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,719 Speaker 1: juror's ability to be fair and try the case on 184 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: the facts they heard from the witness stand No, no, no, no, 185 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: that's not what they said. They said it, Charlie Langston. 186 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: Aren't they saying that them recounting their experiences affected the 187 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: jury deliberation? Is not that it made them unfair or 188 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: or partial. If they didn't say that it made them 189 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: unfad what they said, I mean, what the second juror said, specifically, 190 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: was that that experiences of sexual assault had helped to 191 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: shape the jury's discussion so effectively. What the two jurors 192 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: who have can out have said is that in them 193 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: sharing their recollections of sexual abuse, it made the other 194 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 1: jurors understand more how victims of sexual abuse may continue 195 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: to recall their experiences, and I think in doing so, 196 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: the jury was maybe able to realize a little bit 197 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 1: more clearly just how well the trauma of abuse sticks 198 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: with you throughout the years. So Maxwell's legal team one 199 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: of their big arguments was to try and say that 200 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: these women were coming forward because they wanted money, that 201 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: they couldn't really remember what had gone on, and these 202 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: jurors who spoke of their own experiences of sexual abuse 203 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: were effectively helping the other jurors to realize that, no, 204 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: these recollections do really stick with you, and you know, 205 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: you are still able to recall a lot of details 206 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: in very kind of specific ways. However, other you know, 207 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: facts might be a little bit more blurry as time 208 00:13:55,200 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: goes on. Wait wait, wait, wait, white, White, Okay, this 209 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: happens when you're a crime victim. I will never forget 210 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: for years and years and years, even when I was 211 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: a prosecutor, I would not reveal, did not they want 212 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: to talk about it to other people. That my fiance 213 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: had been murdered just before our wedding, and that changed 214 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: the course of my life in my career and That's 215 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: why I became a prosecutor. It was nobody's business. I 216 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: didn't want to talk about it, but I remember it 217 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: very well. And then I finally am publicly telling my 218 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: story at request of Larry King. And do you know 219 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: he asked me, when did this happen? And I said 220 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: August sixth, and I screwed up the year. I don't 221 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: remember what year, I said, but I screwed up the 222 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: year Keith was murdered. Why did I do that? I 223 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: don't know now. I remember so many things vividly. And 224 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: then of course I was attacked like crazy about just 225 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: everything because I screwed up the year on national TV. 226 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: Now one thing, correct me if I'm wrong, and then 227 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: everybody jump in. Charlie, this guy, Scottie David explained to 228 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: the jurars some aspects of his abuse had been easier 229 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: to recall than others. Quote, I remember the color of 230 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: the carpet, the walls. Some of it could be replayed 231 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: like a video. I'd do that too, but I can't 232 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: remember all the details. There are some things that run together. 233 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: And in his talking to the jury, according to him Charlie, 234 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: he says that the jurors were going Wow, Why didn't 235 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: the parents let this happen? Didn't they notice their children 236 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: weren't home at the right time? And because of what 237 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: he had gone through, he told the jars, wait, minute, 238 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: you can't judge them victims like that or their parents. 239 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: They were just fourteen years old, for Pete's sake. So 240 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: do I have that right, Charlie links yes. Effectively, he 241 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: was helping the jury to understand, as a victim himself, 242 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: why some of these women might be able to recall 243 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: sudden details, as you said, in a very specific way, 244 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: but not be able to remember other things, as you said, 245 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: like dates or times, or you know, even the location 246 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: of where the abuse happened. Because that, you know, I'm not, 247 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: unfortunately an expert, but that's the way the human brain works. 248 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: You when you go through an incredibly traumatic experience, sometimes 249 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: you do try and block out the more painful aspects. Okay, 250 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: I heard everybody jumping in. I heard I know, I 251 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: just got Morgans hit me. Yeah, listen, I got to 252 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: tell you, you know, I'm hearing the words molestation and 253 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: sexual abuse being thrown around a lot. I got to 254 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: remind everybody here that she was not charged or accused 255 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: of those things. Officially, from a legal perspective, she's charged 256 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: with enticement of a minor, transportation of a minor, sex, 257 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: trafficking of a miner, and three counts of conspiracy. So 258 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: you know, if abuse or molestation is an element of 259 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: that crime, which you know, for those that don't understands 260 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: it's a building block of the chrome, maybe that's the case. 261 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: But you know, to the other point, here were these 262 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: you know, during this questionnaire, were they actually ask well, 263 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: do you have any experience with trafficking? Do you have 264 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: any experience with enticement? Do you have any experience with 265 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: the transportation of a minor? You know, you know to 266 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: for tat, you know, is that the case because right 267 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: now all I'm hearing is molestation and abuse, and she 268 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: wasn't charged with us things. Nay, Doctor Teresa Gill joining 269 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: US professor's psychology and author way in, doctor Well. In 270 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: terms of memory, we know that the hippocampus is important 271 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: for memory formation and recall. However, people understress, such as 272 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: children who are experience in abuse, the body goes into 273 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: fight flight. Adrenaline and cortisol are released, and all of 274 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: a sudden, the hippocampus is switched off and it goes 275 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: into the amygdala, and the amygdala is not good from 276 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: the memory recall, formation or retrieval. And that's why a 277 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: lot of the people who were on trial and his 278 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: victims don't have really clear memories. And that's why they 279 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: can do what you did, particularly if they're understress during 280 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: the trial. They go back to the amiddaler and they 281 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: can remember feeling and body memories, but they can't remember 282 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: particular facts. And that's actually what Elizabeth Loftis was bringing 283 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: out in the trial was why there is false memories, 284 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: and that's what the juror said that he tried to 285 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: clarify to the jury when they're in deliberations, because many 286 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: of them said that they were confused. Why in twenty eighteen, 287 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: nineteen and twenty they gave one story. The victims gave 288 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: one story to the federal government, and now they're giving 289 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: another story. Tom in the in the Trial Crime Stories 290 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace Charlie thanks to joining me female editor 291 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: with The Daily Mail. I don't think that the victims 292 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: gave different stories. I think that under the appropriate questioning, 293 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: more facts came out on the stand. Because when you 294 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: ask somebody okay, what happened, and then they tell you, Well, 295 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: then you may want to ask, well, do you remember 296 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 1: what time of year it was, do you remember what 297 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: the part was wearing. Do you remember what you were wearing? 298 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: Do you remember who let you into the home? Do 299 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: you remember if there were any maids there, anybody else 300 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: at Epstein's home. I mean, there are a million questions 301 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: that you can ask where the victim would add to 302 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: the story, not necessarily change the story. Charlie, No, and 303 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: I don't think, I mean, you know, from my experience 304 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: of kind of reading through everything that went on with 305 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: the trial, I don't think that any of the victims 306 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: were particularly doubtful in any of their you know kind 307 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: of testimonies. I think that all of the victims spoke 308 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: very clearly about what they had been through and ge 309 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: Lane's part in that, which, you know, as we've pointed out, 310 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: we aren't kind of looking here at a charge for 311 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: sexual abuse at the hands of Gui Lane. What we 312 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: are looking for is kind of these charges of trafficking 313 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: and enticement, and every single one of the victims was 314 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: able to give very clear testimony about the part that 315 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: Gui Lane played in you know kind of Epstein's trafficking 316 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: ring effectively. So when it comes to a jura like 317 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: Scottie David explaining to his other jurors what it is 318 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: like to be the victim of sexual abuse and what 319 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: it is like to kind of try and recall those memories, 320 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: I don't think that he in any way kind of 321 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: made jurors completely changed their minds about witness testimonies. I 322 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: think what he was trying to do was offer what 323 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 1: some of the victims weren't able to say, which is 324 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: sometimes my memory is a little bit blurry. Sometimes I 325 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 1: can't recall certain facts. But what I can recall and 326 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: what I know to be true, is what I went through. 327 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: Just because I can't remember whether it happened on a 328 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: Tuesday or a Wednesday doesn't mean that it didn't happen. 329 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 1: I takulos to Erica d This is Joe Pipe the Skynese. 330 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: This juror says that he quotes flew through the questionnaire. 331 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: He doesn't remember answering a question about abuse, but if 332 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: he did answer it, he answered it honestly. Certainly, both 333 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: sets of lawyers on the prosecution and on the defense 334 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: side recognize as a problem here. The first lawyers to 335 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: get in touch with the judge rights. The asking for 336 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: an inquiry a call hearing a month's time was the 337 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: government lawyers, but since there in the last hour or so, 338 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 1: Gilly Maxwell's team have also been in touch with Judge 339 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: Nathan saying that the interviews and the fact that Scottie 340 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: David was a victim of abuse presents quotes incontroversible grounds 341 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: for a new trial. He could potentially be in some 342 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: legal trouble if he has misled the court, although I'm 343 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 1: sure he would deny that. Anna. What we could potentially see, 344 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: although it is early days, is the judge declaring the 345 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: first trial a mistrial and starting again from scratch. That's 346 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: something I'm sure that the government, the prosecutors here in 347 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: the US I would want to avoid. But that is 348 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: what Gillay Maxwell's lawyers are now calling for. Ah. The 349 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: potential of a brand new trial, putting the victims back 350 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: up again doing it all over would be devastating to 351 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: the state. But the reality is to Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, 352 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: host of Today would doctor Wendy on CACBQ, the reality 353 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: is that what must be shown is not that a 354 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: jurr or multiple grs had been molested in the past, 355 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: not that, but that that information was either not requested 356 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: by the state, that the state has some type of misconduct, 357 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: and we see in question number forty eight the state 358 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: did ask that question, So we don't have any prosecutorial misconduct. 359 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: Did ajar lie that would be an issue? And if so, 360 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: did that lie? Maybe it jurar impartial and would it 361 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: have changed the outcome of the trial? Otherwise? That is 362 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: a very steep burden. Wendy Patrick, No, it is, and 363 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: I won't say that I haven't had to try cases 364 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: twice due to during misconduct, because I have. But that 365 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it is a slam dunk, as the 366 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: defenses contend. Not only is it a steep hill to climb, 367 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: but it also involves something courts really don't want to do, 368 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: which is really invading the purview of jury deliberations. I mean, 369 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: that's why we have the jury system, is they're entitled 370 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: to get together and talk and share and to go 371 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: beyond that veil and then start what poland jurors to 372 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: see if in fact, this did make the months fair 373 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: when they heard this. That's not something a judge is 374 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: going to do lately. So I do think that this 375 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: judge todays take a very thoughtful view as to whether 376 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,959 Speaker 1: or not what's being raised here actually will cause her 377 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: to even think about going down that road. And this 378 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: occurring the potential of a new trial being ordered for 379 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: Dalaie Maxwell. If there was prosecutorial misconduct, the whole thing 380 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: could be over, the commission could be thrown out, and 381 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: the case may be barred from rey trial. I do 382 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: not see any prosecutorial misconduct, but will there have to 383 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: be a new trial? That would be a huge for 384 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: the defense. But statistically, when there is a second trial, 385 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: the state usually wins, but it will be painful. While 386 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: all this is happening, another bombshell in the case of 387 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: another Epstein Elaine Maxwell victim, Virginia Jeffreys and Epstein victim 388 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: that is take a listen to Aricut fifteen. This is 389 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: the BBC's Emily Metlas interview with Prince Andrew Julia. This year, 390 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: Epstein was rested on charges of sex trafficking and abusing 391 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: dozens of underage girls. One of Epstein's accuses, Virginia Roberts, 392 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: has made allegations against you. She says she met you 393 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: in two thousand and one. She says she dined with you, 394 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: danced with you at Tramp nightclub in London. She went 395 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: on to have sex with you in a house in 396 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: Belgravia belonging to girl and Maxwell. Your friend your response, 397 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: I have no recollection of meeting this lady, none whatsoever. 398 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: You don't remember meeting her? She says she met you 399 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: in two thousand and one. She dined with you, she 400 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: danced with you, You bought her drinks. You were in 401 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: Trump nightclub in London, and she went on to have 402 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: sex with you in a house in Belgravia belonging to 403 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: girl in Maxwell. Didn't happen? Do you remember her? No? Okay? 404 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: Prince Andrew says he has no recollection of meeting Virginia 405 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: Roberts underage at that time, much less having sex with her. 406 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: But there's a picture of him with her and one 407 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: of the homes that she describes. Now, brace yourself. They 408 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: go listen to our cut nineteen again our friends at 409 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,360 Speaker 1: BBC with Prince Andrew. Do you recognize yourself in It's 410 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: pretty difficult not to recognize yourself. Your friend suggested that 411 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: the photo is fake. I think it's from the investigations 412 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: that we've done. You can't prove whether or not that 413 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: photograph is faked or not because it is a photograph 414 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: of a photograph of a photograph, so it's very difficult 415 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: to be able to prove it. But I don't remember 416 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: that photograph ever being taken. But it's possible that it 417 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: was you with your that's me, but whether that's my 418 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: hand or whether that's the position, but I don't. I 419 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: have simply no recollection of a photograph ever being taken. Okay, 420 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: well we have the photograph, so it happened. Now brace 421 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: yourself one more time, our cut twenty one, our friends 422 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: at BBC. So why would somebody have put in another hand? 423 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: You think it is you next to her in the photo? 424 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: It's definitely me, that's a that's a picture of me, 425 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: not a picture of I don't believe it's a picture 426 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: of me in London because when I would go out 427 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: to when I go out in London, I wear a 428 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: suit and the tie. That's what I would just grow as. 429 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: Those are my traveling clothes if I'm going to go, 430 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: if I'm going overseas, I've got plenty of photographs of 431 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: me addressed in those sorts of that sort of kit, 432 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: but not there. Okay, mystery solved. Those are his traveling clothes, 433 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: all right, Charlie Lyne's enjoining us at dailymail dot com 434 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: Female editor F A M A I L Editor Charlie. 435 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: That settles the whole thing, of course, that live because 436 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: those are his traveling clothes which he would not have worn. 437 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: Then I he molested a teen girl in the last day. 438 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: Let us not forget the claims that he also is 439 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: not able to sweat and therefore could not have been 440 00:28:52,760 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: sweaty while dancing with a teenage girl. Time stories with 441 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace for those of you just joining us. Another 442 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: bombshell in the case relating to Gilane Maxwell and now 443 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein. In the last hours, we 444 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: learn a judge has dealt a major blow to Prince Andrew. 445 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: Don't you know the Queen is doing a back flip 446 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: right now to you, Charlie Langston tell us about the 447 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: decision that has been made in the last hours regarding 448 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: Andrew's attempt to stop Virginia Jeffrey's case. Well, I first 449 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: would like to point out that we have had a 450 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: huge blow to Prince Andrew talking about the Virginia Roberts 451 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: picture because a witness at Gilaine Maxwell's trial who was 452 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: one of the victims, has waived her amity and has 453 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: come forward to say that she remembers Virginia Roberts telling 454 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: her at the time that she had not only gone 455 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: out with Gilaine, Jeffrey and Prince Andrew, but that she 456 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: had had sex with Prince Andrew. She then returned to 457 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: the US, picked up this friend from school and showed 458 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: her the exact same picture that Prince Andrew was just 459 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,959 Speaker 1: talking about in those clips. So that is a major 460 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: blow to Prince Andrew because this is the first time 461 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: that we have heard someone else claiming to have an 462 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: account of what Virginia Roberts is saying. Previously, we haven't 463 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: had anyone else say I was there at the time, 464 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: Virginia told me at the time what had gone on. 465 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: So the fact that there is another person coming forward 466 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: saying I heard Virginia tell me this when it happened, 467 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: that's a major blow to Prince Andrew's case. In the 468 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: last hours, the Prince Andrew lost a major legal battle. 469 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: There had been a settlement, so to speak, between Epstein 470 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: and certain victims, and in that settlement some victims were 471 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: paid off and they agree to never prosecute. Now, Prince 472 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: Andrew had hoped that that settlement would have covered him, 473 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: that he could not be prosecuted for underage sex as 474 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: it related to Jeffrey Epstein. Think about it, the Prince 475 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: of England, Queen Elizabeth's son, allegedly her favorite son. We 476 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: all knew he slept around gaining the name Randy Andy. 477 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:48,959 Speaker 1: But with Miners, they have tried everything possible to stop 478 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: this case. A judge unseals the sealed settlement and in 479 00:31:54,800 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: the settlement, Prince Andrew is not mentioned. He's not part 480 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: of the settlement. There is no reason that a case 481 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: against him cannot go forward. That's the big bottleshell that 482 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: has happened in the last hours. Guys. When it comes 483 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: down to the picture that you hear Charley Lankston from 484 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: delhimail dot com talking about, you know Andrew, just he 485 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: keeps trying, it wasn't me. I wasn't there, I didn't 486 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: have sex. I don't remember. Oh, okay, that is me 487 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: in that picture. But I would never have done that. 488 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: And that's not my hand, it's my body. I was 489 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: there at that location. But that's not my hand around 490 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: this underage girl. Plus those aren't the correct clothes. I 491 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: would never wear that to a party. All right, Take 492 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: a listen to our cut twenty two. Just to clarify, 493 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: say you think that photo has been faked. Nobody can 494 00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: prove whether or not that pograph has been doctored. But 495 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: I don't recollect that photograph ever being taken. And you 496 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: don't recollect having your hand around her waist in girl 497 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: and Maxwell's house on any occasion, even if it was 498 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: a different Sorry, but if I as a member of 499 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: the royal family and I have a photograph taken, and 500 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: I take very very few photographs, I am not one too. 501 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: As it were, hug and public displays of affection are 502 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: not something that I do. So that's the best explanation 503 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: I can give you. And I'm afraid to say that 504 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: that I don't believe that photograph was taken in the 505 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: way that has been suggested. Okay, wait for it. Take 506 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: lost to our cut twenty seven again. The BBC Epstein's 507 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: housekeeper also in a Florida court legal deposition, so that 508 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: you visited the Palm Beach residence around four times a year, 509 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: you've got a daily mass four times a year. That 510 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: was what he said in a Florida called legal deposition. 511 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, when you look back now, is there 512 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: a chance that those massages might have been the services 513 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: of someone who is being sexually exploited or trafficked by Epstein? No, 514 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: I don't think. I mean, I know, definitely not, definitely not. 515 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: And I definitely did not visit his Palm Beach house 516 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: three or four times a year, Absolutely not. How many 517 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:40,439 Speaker 1: times would you say visited are in total? Probably four 518 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: times in total throughout the time that I knew him. Okay, 519 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: you may ask why would the son of Queen Elizabeth 520 00:34:53,600 --> 00:35:01,479 Speaker 1: hang out with a pedophile who had been convicted why? Well, 521 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 1: what it boils down to, according to sources. Charlie Langston 522 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: joining us with from daling on dot com is it's 523 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: all about money. Is it true that Prince Andrew had 524 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: a lawsuit leveled against him, he needed money and he 525 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: went to Epstein to get money. I mean, I think 526 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: so much of this is all revolving around money. And 527 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: what we know about Prince Andrew's friendship with Epstein is 528 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: that no matter how many people came forward and no 529 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: matter how many scandals were leveled at Epstein, Prince Andrew 530 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: did not end his friendship with this disgraced financier. You know, 531 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: we have those famous pictures of the two of them 532 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: in New York together after Epstein had been accused of 533 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: sexually assaulting several women. You know, Prince Andrew has since 534 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 1: said that he felt as though he needed to speak 535 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: to Epstein in person to tell him that they could 536 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: no longer be friends. But that, to me is just 537 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: absolutely ludicrous. How on earth, as a senior member of 538 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: the royal family, as the son of the Queen, how 539 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: can you think that it is okay to even give 540 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: this person any face to face time. An email would 541 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: have sufficed saying I'm sure you can understand, in light 542 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: of everything that's going on, we can no longer be 543 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: seen together, be seen to have any form of relationship whatsoever. 544 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: But of course, when it came to Epstein, one of 545 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: the reasons that he was able to continue his relationships 546 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: with so many powerful people, not just Prince Andrew, was 547 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: because of the wealth and the power that he himself had, 548 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: and he was able to use that in order to 549 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: form very close friendships with a very high number of 550 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: high profile and important people. And what we're learning is 551 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: that the money that Andrew allegedly owed was not that 552 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: much when you think about royalty, I mean, has this 553 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: guy ever worked a day in his life? I mean, 554 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,919 Speaker 1: I know he was with the Navy, correct, the Royal Navy. Yeah. 555 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: Is he about to be stripped of all of his 556 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: military titles? There is a huge amount of pressure right 557 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: now on the Queen to strip Andrew of his honorary 558 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: military titles. And you have to remember Prince Harry was 559 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: very recently stripped of all of his honorary military titles 560 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: and the reason for that was because he stepped down 561 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: as an active member of the royal family. He is 562 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,399 Speaker 1: no longer an official member of the working Royal family. Well, 563 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,839 Speaker 1: neither is Prince Andrew. You know, it was made very 564 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 1: clear by the Queen and by Prince Charles after this 565 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 1: whole scandal broke that Prince Andrew would no longer be 566 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: an active, working member of the Royal family. So if 567 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: Prince Harry lost his military titles for that same reason, 568 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,800 Speaker 1: surely Prince Andrew also needs to be stripped of his titles. 569 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,760 Speaker 1: Even if the family is you know, kind of standing 570 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: by him. Defending him, you know, paying no mind to 571 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: these accusations against him. The fact that he is no 572 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: longer a working member of the royal family would give 573 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: them enough reason to remove his military titles. Take a 574 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,720 Speaker 1: listen to our cut thirty five. This is Virginia Roberts 575 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: Jeffrey speaking to NBC. Virginia says the abuse moved from 576 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: the bathroom to a bedroom. He wasn't rude or anything 577 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 1: about it. He said, you know, thank you and some 578 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: kind of soft sentiments like that, and left. I just 579 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that even Royals Hue 580 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: were involved, She says. Prince Andrew abused her two more times, 581 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: once in New York in Epstein's mansion and again at 582 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: his Virgin Islands estate. Prince Andrew, of course, denies that 583 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: this ever happened. He denies that had ever happened, and 584 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: he's going to keep denying that had ever happened. But 585 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: he knows the truth, and I know the truth. We 586 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: wait as justice unfalls. Nancy Grace comes story, signing off 587 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: goodbye friend.