1 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: Glass, Welcome to tech stuff. I'm care Price. Yes it's Friday, 2 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: but instead of the Week in Tech, we wanted to 3 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: share a conversation I had with Jim Ashworth Beaumont some 4 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: years ago. Jim was clipped by a truck when biking 5 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: and sustained a traumatic injury. 6 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 2: I was sitting at traffic lights and Lorry basically turned 7 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: as it was leaving the traffic lights, and they caught 8 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 2: me on the side of the vehicle and dragged me underneath. 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 2: So I was essentially going to get crushed by the 10 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: bat wheels, and I reflexively reached up to the bottom 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 2: of the Lorry and grabbed hold of the underneath of it. 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 2: So I got dragged up the road undre meters and 13 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: my arm got caught under the bat wheels and taken off. 14 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: On top of losing his arm, Jim's lungs were punctured 15 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: and his liver was split in two. He told me 16 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: that the next six weeks were a blur an coma, 17 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: but also in a conscious state. 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: I assume that I died and I was I was 19 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 2: sort of going through between dimensions of experiencing various lives, 20 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 2: and although in six weeks it seemed like a lot 21 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: longer to me. I was experiencing things physically, by which 22 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 2: I mean the doctors trying to save my life. I 23 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 2: was basically having heart attacks like two three times a day, 24 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: so they're kind of jumpstarted me, like continually. 25 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: Amazingly, Jim was able to pull through, and soon he 26 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: was troubleshooting how to live a one armed life. For 27 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: most people, living with a prosthetic or even thinking about 28 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: prosthetics would require a huge mindset shift, But this wasn't 29 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: Jim's first encounter with these devices. After leaving the Royal Marines, 30 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: Jim got a degree in prosthetics and orthotics and has 31 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: worked in a clinical capacity helping patients through pain, function 32 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: and mobility issues for decades. So when Jim needed a 33 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: prosthetic arm of his own, his peers made him their 34 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: guinea pig of sorts for the bionic future of prosthetic First, 35 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: he was fitted with a titanium implant that was surgically 36 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: inserted into the surviving bone of his arm. This is 37 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: called ossio integration, and Jim's prosthetics can now attached to 38 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: this socket instead of molding over a residual limb or 39 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: stump on top of Ossio integration, Jim is living with 40 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: a high tech electronic arm that looks like it's straight 41 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: out of a Sci Fi props department. The Black Mental 42 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: Arm costs upwards of one hundred thousand dollars, is controlled 43 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: via Bluetooth app and provides increased mobility, grip and control. 44 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: And in the interview you'll hear what it sounds like. 45 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: Jim is truly inspiring and the future of prosthetics is 46 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: extremely exciting to witness. So let's dive into my conversation 47 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: with Jim Ashworth Beaumont. How would you say that your 48 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: technical knowledge and experience helped you in your rehabilitation. 49 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 2: Well, it's not straightforward to me because my history is 50 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 2: quite varied. Into the armed forces as a professional athlete 51 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 2: for a few years, I completed a PhD in human 52 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 2: rehabilitation and the master's in rehabilitation. I qualified as a 53 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: personal trainer, and I'm also a running coach as well, 54 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 2: so all those different kind of aspects of my knowledge 55 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 2: sort of focused on myself. I was kind of my 56 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: own perfect subject, I suppose guinea pig, if that's the 57 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: right phrase. So fortunately for me, it just turns out 58 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 2: all the interests I've had, or the majority of them, 59 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: have actually been related to getting somebody through an injury, 60 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: optimizing their performance, getting them as good as they can 61 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 2: be for sport. But those principles apply equally to patients, 62 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 2: and I applied that to myself very quickly and very naturally, 63 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: And I would say that gave me a massive advantage 64 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: not only in addressing my own problem directly, but also 65 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 2: communicating with other health cares and giving them a strategy 66 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 2: to solved my problem. So it's extremely lucky in that respect. 67 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, can you talk about what limitation traditional prosthetics have, So. 68 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: I saw a break prostheses down into three main categories. 69 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 2: So is the let's say, very specific or task dependent device. 70 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 2: So that might be something that's designed for a particular purpose, like, 71 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 2: for example, I'm quite a keen runner, and what you 72 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: need for good balance running is two arms as well 73 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: as two legs. And once I've lost the arm, I 74 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 2: spent four years running in a very weird way and 75 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: getting lots of sort of injuries as a result. So 76 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 2: this very simple kilogram and a half of steel attached 77 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 2: to my body very very securely enables me to run 78 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: and exercise very efficiently. So the next sort of category 79 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: would be a body powered device. So the technology is 80 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 2: probably about one hundred and fifty years old, and early 81 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: examples are seen in the Civil War kind of American 82 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 2: Civil War type of thing. When you have a war, 83 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: innovation happens in prosthetics. So in like eighteen fifty odd 84 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 2: when the American Civil War happened, people spend a lot 85 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: of time thinking about, oh, how do we make a 86 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: functioning device that people can actually pick things up or 87 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: do a job once they get out of the services. 88 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 2: So body powered devices they have. I usually have a 89 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: hand and an elbow if we're talking about somebody's lost 90 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: an arm above the elbow like I have, and then 91 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 2: you can use cables which you're attached to other parts 92 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 2: of the body and use accessory movements like shrugging the 93 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: shoulders or stretching the chest out in order to power 94 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 2: those components. I have a body powered arm that I 95 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 2: use at work. And the advantage of those devices is 96 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: they're very simple. You know exactly what they're going to do. 97 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: The power comes from you're an input, not from a battery. 98 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: And also they're very durable, so you can drop it 99 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 2: in a bucket of water or we're using a dusty environment, 100 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,559 Speaker 2: it's still going to work. And then we come onto 101 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 2: these powered devices like I'm wearing at the moment. So 102 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: at the moment, I'm wearing a a prothesis with a 103 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 2: powered elbow and I've got power grist, so it has 104 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 2: an internal battery which you can take out in charge 105 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 2: every day. These lithium iron botteries are quite heavy, but 106 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 2: they do store a massive amount of charge and that 107 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: battery will last me two days and allow me to 108 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 2: power the hand and the wrist and the elbow of 109 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: this arm. So it is a fully functioning arm. And 110 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 2: the only thing that's missing is the level of control 111 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 2: that I have with it, and that's something that is 112 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 2: quite important and prosthetics, and that's where the latest research 113 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 2: is going right now, is figuring out how to give 114 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 2: people that the number of channels of the richness of 115 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 2: information to control a synthetic arm, which, on the face 116 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: of it, given the mechanical technology that's available now, in principle, 117 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 2: you can control the hand individual fung pingu wise, but 118 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 2: there are so many degrees of movement involved in that 119 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 2: that you need the in some way to reinstatement and 120 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 2: That's the way the challenge lies for me because leasing 121 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: the arm at the level I have, I've got two 122 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 2: channels of information. I've got biceps and triceps and that's it. 123 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: So you're trying to solve for more control essentially. 124 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's a number of variables you're juggling. Is 125 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 2: the simple ability of the arm to move throughout all 126 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 2: its degrees of freedom, and then there's the practicality, is 127 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 2: the safety, the durability. So these are all qualities of 128 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: a natural arm that you don't even think about. But 129 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 2: once these problems start arising, and then you have to 130 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:26,239 Speaker 2: think of ways either to solve them all at once 131 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: or prioritize particular properties to suit the environment, to suit 132 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 2: the task. And that's where the skill of my job 133 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: lies actually, is really talking with patients to figure out 134 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 2: what the lives are like, what their priorities, and how 135 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: to solve them. 136 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: How would you describe O CEO integration to someone who 137 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: knows nothing about prosthetics? I e. 138 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 2: Me, Most of us or many of us will know 139 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: about prosthetic teeth. You know where they're implanted into your skull, 140 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 2: your jaw. Many of us will know people who were 141 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: pre profoundly deaf and have a cochlear implant, so that's 142 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: something that's implanted into the skull. And very many of 143 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 2: us know about hip and knee replacements and things like that. 144 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: So for the last thirty years we've had Ossi integration, 145 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: where you have this bit of titanium that sticks into 146 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: the bone. But if you have regard to the potential 147 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 2: for infection, which you're going to get if something sticken 148 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: out for your skin, as long as you take care 149 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 2: of that, you've basically got something which is anchored directs 150 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 2: your skeleton. 151 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: And that was what the situation you were in. 152 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 2: Yeah you got it. Yeah, absolutely. So the issue with 153 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 2: me as a prostatic patient is that my residual limb, 154 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 2: my stump is which very very short, and so that 155 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: limits the amount of force you can apply to a 156 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 2: prosthetic device and also the amount of pressure on your 157 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: body that results from you try to put pressure through it. 158 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: So you've got this tissue viability issues. Not all of 159 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 2: us knowbmd's lost an arm or a leg, but wear 160 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: a badly fitting pair of shoes for any time I'd 161 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 2: have to walk for a long distance. You know about 162 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 2: it pretty soon, right, And if that's your only pair 163 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 2: of shoes. If that's all you got. What that does 164 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 2: it limits your ability to use the device or it 165 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 2: certainly puts you off. So what you have in upper 166 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 2: and Prospects is a situation where many people need limbs 167 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 2: in places like Gaza and all that. So many people 168 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 2: have lost limbs, and even if you can provide somebody 169 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: with the limb, the comfort factor and the tissue viability 170 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 2: factor really limit the use. In Europe, we've got the 171 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 2: situation in Ukraine and actually that is an experimental hotbed 172 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 2: for ussy integration right now. 173 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: To your point, war zones unfortunately become a breeding ground 174 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:37,839 Speaker 1: for innovation, you got it. 175 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, So those specialists in OSCI integration are spending 176 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: a lot of time in Ukraine and it is pushing 177 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: forward the field most definitely. 178 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: What are some of the things that they're experimenting with. 179 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 2: Well, if I can talk about the effect of an 180 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 2: explosion or a high velocity bullet, if you catch you 181 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: around in your upper arm, it's going to take your 182 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 2: entire arm off. If you catch your through your forum, 183 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 2: it's going to take your arm up below the elbow 184 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 2: or potentially above it. And having an elbow having a 185 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 2: joint is great under voluntary control, and having all those 186 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 2: muscles and nerves undervolved controls great because then you can 187 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 2: use them to directly drive a prosthesis. If you lose 188 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 2: the entire arm, of the majority of arm, then you 189 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: know get limited kind of options. So that's where OSI 190 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 2: integration comes in as a way to securely anchor a prosthesis, 191 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 2: and that enables you to push so much more load 192 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 2: through your body. Before I got milesome integration, I could 193 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 2: just about take loads through the end of it without 194 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 2: a prosthesis on. But now I can support my entire 195 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 2: body weight through my stump. 196 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:39,959 Speaker 1: Really yeah. 197 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: I can do press ups, I can do pull ups. 198 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 2: And when I'm a work as well as working with patients, 199 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 2: I'm in the workshop building things as well, and I 200 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 2: can apply a huge amount of force through the prosthesis 201 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: and it's absolutely fantastic. 202 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: That's incredible, And that's because of OCO integration absolutely yeah. 203 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. The other side of it is because the prosthesis 204 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 2: so securely fixed to my body, it makes it so 205 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 2: much easier to control because although I'm still using the 206 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 2: electrical signals from my stump to control a prosthesis in 207 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 2: quite a limited way. The fact that the electrodes stay 208 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: in the same place all the time means that my 209 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 2: control is so much better. 210 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about the procedure and 211 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: the risks of the procedure and what made you decide 212 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: to try it? 213 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 2: Well, there was the practical side of things that I've discussed. 214 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it necessarily limited me at work, but 215 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: I was. My use of a prosthesis was very limited 216 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 2: to work through necessity, and then when I was outside work, 217 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: I wouldn't wear anything. When you're wearing a prosthesis, you 218 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 2: kind of have to think about what your priorities are. 219 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: I weighed up the benefit of using a prosthesis against 220 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 2: the comfort side of things and decided, well, it's not 221 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 2: worth me wearing a prosthesis for most of the time, right, So, 222 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 2: knowing about the science already, I didn't need to be 223 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: convinced that having the surgery to implant the titanium implant 224 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 2: into my stuff was a good idea. It was more 225 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 2: the emotional side of it. You know, it continues actually 226 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 2: to play on the back of your mind and you're 227 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 2: always thinking, I've got this artificial things sticking out through 228 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 2: my body, This is kind of weird, being right, I 229 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 2: would imagine, Yeah, but when as soon as I put 230 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 2: an arm on, that problem solves because I'm getting the benefit. 231 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 2: So what I tend to do now is as soon 232 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 2: as getting out of bed in the morning, I'll put 233 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: a prosthetic arm on, and then I feel complete and 234 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 2: all those concerns about having that bit of mel sticking 235 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,719 Speaker 2: out through my body go away. Don't even think about it. 236 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: So it's really when it's not there. 237 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, But before the US integration, wearing an arm 238 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 2: we felt foreign and weird because it wouldn't do etaally 239 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 2: what I wanted to do. It to do it moved 240 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 2: relative to my body. So because you've got the bone 241 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 2: in my arm, then you've got the soft tissue, and 242 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 2: then you've got the prosthesis on the outside of that, 243 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 2: all these things move relative to each other, and so 244 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 2: it never does exactly what we wanted it to do, 245 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 2: whereas now I'm in control of it again. 246 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: After the break, how Jim's one hundred thousand dollars arm 247 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: works with him stay with us. How did you end 248 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: up with the high tech prosthetic that you have now? Like, 249 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: what was the process of developing it? After your accident. 250 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 2: So essentially that was the based on our relationship that 251 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: I've so reinforced in my time in ospital. So I 252 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 2: spent four months in a critical care unit, so very 253 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: limited in terms of my mobility, and so I got 254 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 2: busy kind of exploring all sorts of avenues either using 255 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 2: the cod bless the Internet, but also linking up with 256 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 2: my kind of connections within the industry. So one of 257 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,439 Speaker 2: the guys that I spoke to was Alantdougal at Proactive Prosthetics, 258 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: which is a private company based out into the west 259 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 2: of London, and I basically got chatted to him and 260 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 2: started talking about what as possible. This fantastic arm that 261 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: I have, which is worth an excess of one hundred 262 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 2: thousand pounds, is a nice stuff black and in myoelectrics, 263 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 2: which is the field of externally powered prosthetic devices, most 264 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 2: of these aren't covered for waterproof or dusty environments. So 265 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 2: what I tend to do is revert to using a 266 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 2: body powered prosthesis for things that require that sort of 267 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 2: level of durability. Now, in terms of the arm itself, 268 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 2: I've got two channels of information available. I've got the 269 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 2: biceps and the triceps which are the two surviving muscles 270 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: that I have in my arm. So if I was 271 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 2: using a traditional powered prosthesis, I would be able to 272 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 2: open and close one component and that's it. So what 273 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 2: we're then doing is you were using software in order 274 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: to improve the flexibility of my use of the device. Right, 275 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: So I've got an elbow which has got two degrees 276 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 2: of freedom flex and extent. I've got a wrist which 277 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: is wroteation only, so that's another two degrees of freedom, 278 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 2: and then I've got the hand itself. And here what 279 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 2: I'm doing is I'm using mechatronic algorithms in order to 280 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 2: change the grip of the hand. So once again we 281 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 2: have the old traditional hands which just have one grip 282 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 2: pattern which is like a pinch grip, and then we 283 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 2: have these multi grip hands which are oution about now. 284 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 2: This particular hand I'm using, which is an elimb made 285 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: by a company called Dosser. By the way, this has 286 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 2: up to thirty two different grip patterns and they're programmable. 287 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 2: So I've programmed this with the grip patterns I need, 288 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: and when I want to switch it, I essentially use 289 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 2: a pattern of muscle twitches in order to change the 290 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: grass pattern. So all those degrees of movement in their hand, 291 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 2: which I think the number about twenty seven and all, 292 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 2: I've actually devolved to a mechanical algorithm, but it's under 293 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: my control. You can give the patient like a smartphone 294 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 2: with the software for the hand, so to a limited extent, 295 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 2: they can actually program their. 296 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: Hand themselves, and that hopening currently. 297 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, This hands been around about fifteen years, 298 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 2: I think, so that technology is there, and me, being 299 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: a qualified procethestist, I've also got the software for the 300 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: wrist and the elbow, which has given me complete cote 301 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 2: blanche to program the arm, which the average patient doesn't 302 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 2: have at the moment. But suffice to say, prostetists spend 303 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 2: an awful lot of time trying to get it right. 304 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: That's incredible. 305 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 2: The next stage in this is software which will essentially 306 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 2: configure itself when you put the arm. 307 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: On on the basis of your muscles. 308 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: Well, there's a software package called coapt and that is 309 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 2: a pattern recognition software. So instead of just having electrodes 310 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 2: on specific muscle groups within your remaining part of your arm, 311 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 2: you have a sleeve which you roll onto the arm 312 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 2: and that picks up patterns of activation rather than individual signals, 313 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 2: and then you assign each pattern of activation to a 314 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 2: particular action. So it means that the patient doesn't actually 315 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 2: have to train to use the device. The device trains 316 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 2: itself to work with the patient, which is pretty awesome. 317 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 2: That's incredible, and that's machine learning. It's not quite AI. 318 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 2: AI is a different thing entirely, but it is using 319 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 2: machine learning to get the device to work with the patient. 320 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: And can you just elaborate on that a little bit 321 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: for a lay person. 322 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 2: Sure. So what you do is you start saying to 323 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 2: the patient, okay, i'll put this device on you. Now 324 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 2: if you think about closing your hand, and then you 325 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: show them on the screen hand closing, and then what 326 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 2: they'll do is just imagine the hand closing and using 327 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 2: their nerves that they had, and then using the patterns 328 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,719 Speaker 2: of electrical signal that you pick up off the surfaces 329 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 2: of the skin, you basically generate a pattern of activation 330 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 2: which you can then assign to the hand closing. 331 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: So it's code. What you're doing. 332 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 2: Essentially allowing the machine to code that signal and match 333 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 2: it to an output. So it means that the machine 334 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,120 Speaker 2: and the individual can learn together, which is pretty. 335 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: So essentially like the software update is coming from the person. 336 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely, that's it. Wow, you're uploading that information 337 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 2: every time you put on It's incredible. That's pretty well. 338 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: Has it changed the way that you work with patients. 339 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 2: I don't think it's changing the way I deal with patients. 340 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 2: It's definitely changed the way they see me. I was 341 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 2: always very kind of go focused and interested in educating 342 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 2: patients and giving them their heads up on what the 343 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 2: light the outcome would be of their kind of treatment. 344 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 2: And there's that kind of paradigm gap between a clinician 345 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: and the patient where I'm thinking one thing and they're thinking, 346 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 2: what the hell do they know? Because they are all fit, 347 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 2: healthy and stuff, and they've got a point and I suppose. 348 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 2: And then when they see me with artificial limb because 349 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 2: of where the armor work, I just walk into the 350 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 2: waiting room and greet the patient and say hi, I'm Jim, 351 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: and they'll look at my arm straight off the bat. 352 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 2: Then I can see the wheels turning. We're over the 353 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: huddle already because they can see I've been through something 354 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 2: and I've got some sort of insight into what it 355 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 2: takes to come back from an injury or a pathology 356 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 2: of some sort. So that's huge. Actually, it really is. 357 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: What is the biggest change in your daily life since 358 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: you got an ascio integrated prosthesis. 359 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 2: I would say the level of confidence I've got in 360 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: just living life and feeling on a par with other people. 361 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 2: The way I approach my life. I don't regard as 362 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: myself as disabled, let's put that way. And that's not 363 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 2: because I refute the word. It's just that I'm enable 364 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 2: in so many parts of my life that actually the 365 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 2: stuff I can't do is kind of infintestimally small. But 366 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 2: since the also integration, because I can wear an arm 367 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 2: all the time and operate and in a lot of 368 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 2: things exceed what other people do with sport and things 369 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 2: like that, I just feel like a different person, but 370 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 2: somebody that's equal to other people. 371 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: You talk about how ZEO integration is something that you 372 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: get through private insurance and fund it yourself. I know 373 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: it's very important to you probably to have these things 374 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: more widely available. What is that going to take. 375 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 2: I think it's evidence, that's what it's going to take. 376 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 2: So if you imagine that I'm one of maybe ten 377 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: or fifteen people in the UK, that have had oscient 378 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 2: integration in the last ten years, right, it is quite 379 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: hard to develop that kind of evidence. Now there are 380 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 2: some recipients of OSC integration in the UK that have 381 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 2: received it on the National Health Service their lower limb 382 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 2: and their ex servicemen. But as the cost comes down, 383 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 2: as we produce more evidence to show that it's not 384 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 2: a technology that's going to cause harm through infection for example, 385 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 2: because that's one of the only real downsides with oscient integration, 386 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 2: apart from the bone fracturing or whatever, and make it 387 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 2: more economical for people to get that technology, the better 388 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 2: and more people will get it, and as at some 389 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: point we'll reach the point where our authorities allow people 390 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,719 Speaker 2: to get more of it. Now America is slightly different 391 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 2: how so well because insurance kind of driven economy, right, 392 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 2: so if you have the money, you can have the technology. 393 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 3: Right. 394 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 2: You can in the UK as well, but it's much 395 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 2: more explicit in the US. 396 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: I guess what does the future of this technology look like? 397 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: As someone who's on the front lines of it, both 398 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: personally and professionally. 399 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: Well, the also integration technology moves alongside other technologies as well, 400 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 2: So I talked about the anchoring of the prothesis to 401 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 2: the body, which is really important and that's how I've benefited. 402 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 2: There are also other techniques which can try and compensate 403 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 2: for the lack of information that is transmitted from the 404 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 2: individual through to the prosthesis. At the end of the day, 405 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 2: we're talking about translating thought into action, but there are 406 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 2: so many steps along the way there, and one of 407 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 2: the big ones is actually transmitting those impulses from the 408 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 2: surviving nerves through to the prosthesis and then to the 409 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 2: actual components, and then delivering back sensory information back to 410 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 2: the person, which is where I control loopsclosed and you 411 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 2: actually get effective control. 412 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: Right, What do you think that the next evolution will be, Like, 413 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: what is what comes after zo integration? 414 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 2: Well, I think what we see more of in rehabilitation 415 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 2: is probably exoskeletons. 416 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: I've spent time with someone with a pair of exo legs, 417 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: all right, Okay, yeah, it's pretty incredible to see. 418 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's been quite a lot of interest in 419 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 2: the delivery of exoskeletons to reinstate walking function and it's 420 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 2: quite so of illustrative that you can put a pair 421 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 2: of exoskeleton legs on an individual and then what do 422 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 2: you do with it? Because you can press the button 423 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 2: to get the anista straight in and the hips straight 424 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 2: in to get the present standing and then move them 425 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: in a straight line, and then what's the next step. 426 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 2: So every time an individual moves through the environment, and 427 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 2: this is the issue is prosthetics as well, is that 428 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 2: you come hard up against the practical challenges of using 429 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,360 Speaker 2: devices that really aren't under very higher levels of control. 430 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: Is there technology that you wish was available for amputees 431 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: right now that is not that in your wildest dreams 432 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 1: you wish existed. 433 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 2: So one of the things I would like to try next, 434 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 2: which is already out there, is targeted muscle reinnovation. So 435 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 2: that's where you take that nerve that you've got still 436 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 2: in there but it's been obviously cut by the accident, 437 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 2: and then plug that into a little bit of muscle, 438 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 2: and then that little bit of muscle will give you 439 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 2: a signal when the nerve contracts, when the nerve is 440 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 2: stimulated right by your brain effectively. So that's a really 441 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 2: neat way of giving information back to the prosthesis. So 442 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 2: it's a really great way of reinstating movement that doesn't 443 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 2: give you the full control loop, because you still need 444 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 2: to sense what's going on in the limb end. And 445 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 2: one thing with prosthetics is that lack of sensory information 446 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 2: that you've got in a natural limb and it's not 447 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: in the prosthesis. So that's it. Yet their innovation that's 448 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 2: coming on Actually you can literally wire yourself into a 449 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 2: prosthesis now. 450 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: So Jim, what are some of the things that have 451 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: to happen in order for this tech to become more 452 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: widely available. 453 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 2: So at the moment, an awful lot of the development 454 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 2: they're academic efforts, but they're going to feed down to 455 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 2: the commercial side of things, which is really down to 456 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 2: the relationships between research groups and working surgeons. You know, 457 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: these are clinical teams as well working very closely together, 458 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 2: and those groups based around the world are working together 459 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 2: to take the technology forward very quickly. So if we're 460 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 2: talking about providing maximum benefit to the maximum amount of people, 461 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 2: it's really about making the procedures as commercially viable as possible. 462 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 2: I suppose. Unfortunately you talk about hugely complex engineering and 463 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 2: surgical challenges. It takes money to do that, to develop that, 464 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 2: So I see my role now as actually trying to 465 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 2: bridge the gap between the commercial side of things, insurance 466 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 2: based medicine and NHS based kind of high value, low 467 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 2: cost care. 468 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much, Jim for taking all this 469 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: time to talk very personally and scientifically about what you've 470 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: been working on and what your experience has been. 471 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: I really appreciate it. 472 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 3: Good problem. 473 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: That's it for this week for Tech Stuff. I'm Kara Price. 474 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: My co host is oz Vaalashan. This episode was produced 475 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: by Eliza Dennis and Tyler Hill. It was executive produced 476 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 1: by me oz Vaalashan, Julian Nutter and Kate Osborne forro Kaleidoscope, 477 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: and Katrina Norvall for iHeart Podcasts. Jack Insley mixed this 478 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: episode and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. Please rate, 479 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: review and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast 480 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. We want to hear from you.