1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: realized I never knew my father. I think other guests 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: in your podcasts have talked about that, I really never 4 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: knew who he was. And it's still taking me many years, 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: and he's taken many years to even say that, and 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: I think it will be many more years to understand 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: what that means. That's Emily Bernard. Emily is a university professor, essayist, 8 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: and memoirist, author of the acclaimed book Black as the Body. 9 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: Emily also wrote an essay for Oh, the Oprah magazine 10 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: about forgiving her father's mistress. This is a story about 11 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: the many ways in which understanding and compassion can turn 12 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 1: anger and enmity into something else, something that might even 13 00:00:53,200 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: be called beautiful. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family Secrets, 14 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we 15 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 16 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: And my mother's daughter and that I don't have a 17 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: natural relationship to the natural world. She was a child 18 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: who was very much sent her in the natural world 19 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: when she grew up in the rural South and Hazel Lors, Mississippi. 20 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: But when we moved to the suburbs. She really stayed 21 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: inside as much as possible, and I wanted to be 22 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: with her. So that was my planet, you know, the house. 23 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: Um and emotionally, my mother was the center of everything. 24 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: My mother was a beautiful woman inside and out. I 25 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: don't think there's a single person who would deny that 26 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: she was religious. But religion didn't nominate her, but it 27 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: was deep and it was true, and it's how she 28 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: organized her life around, you know, very traditional Christian values. 29 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: She was a kind person, a generous person. She's reserved. 30 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: She was very funny, and she was whip smart and 31 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: very creative, very thoughtful, but also depressed from a very 32 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: young age, something she had inherited from her paternal line 33 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: and grappled with that before there was a real language 34 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: around it. She said to me, once you know, we 35 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: had the blues. It really hindered her um and also 36 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: I think her since of privacy hindered her a lot too. 37 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: She had a problem making connections with people outside of 38 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: the family. That made her very much alone, even though 39 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: people liked her. Feeling very afraid of my father. But 40 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I remember just a constant feeling of anxiety, 41 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: not being able to relax. Worried that I was going 42 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: to set him off somehow, and his disapproval was something 43 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: that hovered over me all of time. My father ruled 44 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: the roost and that was that. So I had to 45 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: learn to live within those confines. And my mother didn't 46 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: raise wilting flower. She raised someone who could speak her 47 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 1: own mind. But my father. One of the best things 48 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,399 Speaker 1: I've heard that helped soothe me years ago, a therapist said, 49 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: you just weren't a good fit as parent and child, 50 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: and I gave me so much comfort. I think that 51 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: was really the problem. As much energy and money he 52 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: has he put into my education, the fact that I 53 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: was a childhood girl who talked back and had her 54 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: own opinions, he could not manage that. Emily's parents meet 55 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: in Nashville as university students in the nineteen fifties. Her 56 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: father was in medical school and her mother was a 57 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: well regarded campus poet. His story was that he just 58 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: revered her from afar. In fact, one of his stories 59 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: he liked to tell was that he knew how much 60 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: she loved art, and so he got a print of 61 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: the Mona Lisa and put it under her door for 62 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: dorm room, and I think that did seal it from 63 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: my mother that this guy with a buzz cut and 64 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: awkward glasses could be interesting for her romantically. My father 65 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: was a deeply charismatic person, and he had a lot 66 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: of fans um. He was somebody who come in a situation, 67 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: always had a joke, always had a handshake. He had 68 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: a heavy presence, and as much as he was someone 69 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: who had a ready joke with his children, he was 70 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: deeply judgmental. We never we never really measured up. I 71 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 1: grew up with that sense of always bordering on disappointing him, 72 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: and so I followed the path that he had laid 73 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: before me, you know. And education was important to both 74 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: of my parents, and they wanted us to perform at 75 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: a high level. And it was the way I got 76 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: his approval, if not his love. Emily does perform at 77 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: a high level. She goes off to Yale, a school 78 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: her father would most certainly have approved of. She comes 79 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: back to Nashville one winter break. She's home with her 80 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: mom and her brother's Her mom was Emily's dad's office manager, 81 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: and she kept the books both for his office and 82 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: the household finances, so she's balancing the books, and her 83 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: mom sees something that doesn't add up, a plane ticket 84 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: purchased in the name of a patient who also works 85 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: part time in her father's office. She said, why, I 86 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: wonder why he would do this? Why would he buy 87 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: this ticket? And I was very quick to rationalize it 88 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: or just dismiss it. And also my mother was a warrior, 89 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: so you know, I just reassured her quickly that it 90 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: was nothing, and she was imagining it, and that's what 91 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: she lived with. Unfortunately, I was part of the complicity 92 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: or the silence that surrounded her. The ticket was made 93 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: out to a woman by the name of Jeanette Curry, 94 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: and after Emily returns to college, it starts to become clear, 95 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: at least to her, that something troubling is going on 96 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: back home. You're a college senior and you write in 97 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: your journal Jeanette Curry won't stop calling mom. Why is 98 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: she doing this to her? At that point I was 99 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,359 Speaker 1: hearing I was I was in Connecticut and she was 100 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: in Nashville, and she would call me and tell me 101 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: about Jeanette's phone calls, and it was very confusing to me. 102 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: Jeanette had been part of our landscape. Are family landscape 103 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 1: for for years. At that point. My mother and I 104 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: were very close and we talked almost every day when 105 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: I was in college, so it would be it would 106 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: punctuate our conversations this phone call and my mother would, 107 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: you know, call the phone company and change the number. 108 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: And then Jeanette would call the phone company and say, 109 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: this is Mrs Bernard and I've forgotten my number. And 110 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: I think those things would not be so easy to 111 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: do now, And I often think about that, the things 112 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: that could have protected my mother or given her some relief, 113 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: But it was like her world was an open book 114 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: because she had no protection. My father was not protecting her, 115 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: and Jeanette had trained her attention on my mother because 116 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: she wasn't getting the response from my father that she 117 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: wanted those Emily and her mother were certain Jeanette was 118 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: lying a demented fantasist, that she was just playing crazy. 119 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: I mean, who stalks someone like this. The family narrative 120 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: was that this woman was just after his money. Her 121 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: father was insistent on this point, and he was apparently 122 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: very convincing. Besides, he was a formidable figure and it 123 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: must have felt impossible to push him. My father had 124 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: such a casual relationship with the truth in general, that 125 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: I didn't like to ask him direct questions because I 126 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: knew his inclination would be to lie. He was someone 127 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: who just made up stories about his life and everybody 128 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: in his world just believed them. But in fact, when 129 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: Emily wrote those lines in her college journal, Jeanette Curry 130 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: won't stop calling mom, why is she doing this to her? 131 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: The answer was being played out in another home, in 132 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: another neighborhood in Nashville. There was a baby, a boy 133 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: named Lee, a toddler by this point, the child of 134 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: Emily's father and Jeanette Curry. Could you describe Jeanette. We 135 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: went to a very state Episcopal church where we recited 136 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: the Latin, the Mass and Latin you know, in the 137 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: high holidays um and Jeanette would come and she would 138 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: shout about Jesus and it was just the most misort thing. 139 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: I mean between I mean literally the b our pew 140 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: that we occupied as one of the old families in 141 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: the church, and Jeanette would sit on the other side 142 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: and she'd be shouting, and people would just not know 143 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: what to do with this person. So she was uncontainable. 144 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: She was a free radical in our world, and that 145 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: made it also very hard because she she had no shame, 146 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: She was unembarrassed about her relationship with my father, and 147 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: as opposed to my parents, who were very concerned with 148 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: self composition and how we appeared, she didn't care at 149 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: all about that. So we didn't have a choice about 150 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: how much we could conceal from our larger world because 151 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: she was making it public all the time, while your 152 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: father was all the while denying it. Yeah, he would 153 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: sit in his view and just to act nothing was happening. 154 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: So he left sort of everyone else to deal with 155 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: the mess. But he was an island of stoicism and denial. 156 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: So there's a baby, there's a mistress, and there are 157 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: family Sundays in church. Emily's father pretends nothing's going on. 158 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: But as with all good secrets and lies, this one 159 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: eventually proves impossible to contain, no matter how he'd like 160 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: to pretend otherwise. So tell me about this legal battle that, then, 161 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: I guess, results in your father taking a paternity test. 162 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 1: There was a call place to it's a d C 163 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: for the Child Welfare Services in Nashville that triggered a 164 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: blood test to determine Lee's paternity. And again I'm still 165 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: trying to sift through figure out the actual, the meaning 166 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: and what happened here. And the test revealed that my 167 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: father was Lee's father, as Jeanette had been claiming, So 168 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: it vindicated Jeanette. So we don't know who placed that 169 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: call that that triggered the whole episode. I don't quite 170 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,959 Speaker 1: believe it, but Jeanette says, it's my mother who plays 171 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: a call. She thought that that would be a way 172 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: to kind of get Jeanette out of our life. And 173 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: even at that moment, my mother said, well, you know, 174 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: these tests are only reliable. I think about this so 175 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: much in my own life and also in the stories 176 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: of so many of my guests. On family Secrets, the 177 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: tagline for the show is the secrets that are kept 178 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:52,839 Speaker 1: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the 179 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from ourselves. And I always find that 180 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 1: last part the most resonant or haunting, the secrets that 181 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 1: we keep from our elves that were capable of keeping 182 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: out of self preservation, out of love, out of fear, 183 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 1: out of shame, out of so many things. But so 184 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: now your mother, no, I mean your and your father. Denies, denies, denies, denies, 185 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: and then at some point he says yes, and so 186 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: what doesn't really matter. Everybody does this. That was his 187 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: attitude which shocked my mother. I mean, he did all 188 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: the classic things and begged her not to leave, and 189 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: um told her he didn't know what he'd do without her, 190 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: told her that he knew the kids would go with her, 191 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: which was true. We would have certainly taken my mother's 192 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: side and anything she wanted we would have given her 193 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: in terms of shows of loyalty, and she stayed. She 194 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: was very practical, and she knew what happened to women 195 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: after divorce. She had been so talented, but she spent her, 196 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: you know, so much of her life and our our 197 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: lives working in my father's office and being an excellent homemaker. 198 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: So she didn't believe she could compete in a job market, 199 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: and she didn't want to. I think she felt she 200 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: had built my father's career. She was going to stay 201 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: and and reap some of the benefits. I remember at 202 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: one time saying to her, you know, Dad, he would 203 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: never hold it against you. If you are afraid of 204 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: the social stigma of divorce, you don't have to divorce him. 205 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: You can travel take his money. He would never regret 206 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: you that. And she said, Emily, I made this home 207 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: and I'm going to stay this. So that's what she did. 208 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: Emily's mother also does something quite extraordinary here. She wants 209 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: to see Lee taken care of because that's the right 210 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: thing to do. Despite everything, For all of her disappointment, 211 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: she didn't want another kind of unacknowledged black child in 212 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: the world. So she told my father, you have to 213 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: write him into your will in some way. So you know, 214 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: my mother is a deeply ethical person, and you know, 215 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: cared about the community. She cared about black people. She 216 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: cared about this child even though she never knew him 217 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: and wanted to know him, and she cared I think 218 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: about what she would be leaving behind. But she was 219 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: very angry. I think she ricocheted between a lot of emotions. 220 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: I think she was almost making a conscious choice about 221 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: how to deal with this, how to be in the 222 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: wake of this. So she tried anger, and she tried vindictiveness, 223 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: and she tried I think, almost mimicking Jeanette and kind 224 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: of being out of control and letting her emotions fly. 225 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: But in the end, my mother was a decorous and 226 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: decent person who preferred a contemplative life. We'll be back 227 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: in a moment with more family secrets. Emily's mom dies 228 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: at the age of seventy. She had struggled all her 229 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: life with depression, the blues, and she felt humiliated by 230 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: the role she had been forced to play in her church, 231 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: her community, that of the spurned wife. She also had 232 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 1: trouble breathing and suffer from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. By 233 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: the end of her life, she was really a shut in, 234 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: a recluse, and all during her mother's decline, Emily begins 235 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: her life as an adult. She gets her doctorate, starts 236 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: to teach. Eventually she meets her husband and becomes the 237 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: mother of twin daughters. What must it have been like 238 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: to carry the weight of all that history, Well, my 239 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: mother was my first concern, and I think this was 240 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: true for my brother's as well. Um I never wrestled 241 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: with how I really felt about it. I had a 242 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: lot of rage toward my father, and we did not 243 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: have an easy relationship, and this was the icing on 244 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: the cake, and I buried that rage. It was very 245 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: hard for me to beat around him physically, and there 246 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: was just thick and unspoken distance between us. We both 247 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: knew why we never spoke of it. He never talked 248 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: to me about Janette, never spoke her name, He never 249 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: spoke Lee's name in my presence. He talked to my 250 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: brother is more about it. But I think I was 251 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: the girl. And also I was in rage with him, 252 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: and he felt my judgment and it scared him, so 253 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: we never spoke about it. I was angry at her 254 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: sometimes for letting this break her. I needed to believe 255 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: she had choices because I was growing up and I 256 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: wanted to have choices. I hated to see her beaten 257 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: down by this man because it had not been an 258 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: easy marriage. She would always counsel me to make a 259 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: different kind of choice when I get married. So that 260 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: was the idea that my life would be sort of 261 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: corrective to what she was experiencing. But it tore it 262 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: me watching her decline. She didn't want my help. She 263 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: actually disappeared into the marriage even deeper. My father took 264 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: care of her, and he administered all of her medications. 265 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: All the while. Emily isn't just contending with her sadness 266 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: and grief about her mother and her rage at her father. No, 267 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: She's also dealing with the spectra of Jeanette, who in 268 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: some way she blames for the whole thing. Whenever I'd 269 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: see her, I would feel homicidal. I mean really, I 270 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: learned about anger from my experience with this woman. Because 271 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: she was whittling my mother away. Myself was ricocheting between 272 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: a lot of different emotions, and it was easier to 273 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: bury them, to stay buried in the New England, and 274 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: then to remind as far away as I could get 275 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: from them and stay in the United States. I didn't 276 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: allow myself, I think, to confront what I felt my father, 277 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: even though he had done such damage, he still ruled 278 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: the roost. He was a king and we were subjects. 279 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: I never would have been able to conceive of even 280 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: bringing this woman's name up to him. It was out 281 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: of the question. She would be at our church. She 282 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: would come up to me, I mean she again, this 283 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: woman obeyed no conventional boundaries, and she would talk to 284 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: me about my family. And there was one moment when Isabella, 285 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: my utter, who was just a very sweet child, and 286 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: she came up and said, oh, Isabella's gotten so much bigger, 287 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: And Isabella went in to hug her because she was 288 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: responding to the tone of her voice, and I just 289 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: put my hand in Isabella's back. And I went home 290 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: that day from church and I heard my father on 291 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 1: the phone saying, and these low, soft tones, well, you 292 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: have to be the bigger person. And I knew down 293 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: to my toes like a lightning bolt. He was talking 294 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: to Jeanette, and then he was casting at that moment 295 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: as if I had been so rude, inexcusably rude, and 296 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: she should rise above. What it did was it just 297 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: kept the bottom kept falling out, the bottom kept descending, 298 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. There was no floor to 299 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: my feelings of disappointment and my father and I still 300 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: needed a father, I mean, I still needed him to 301 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: be a person I could respect. So it was easier 302 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: just to let him lie and to keep my distance. 303 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: But eventually Emily does go visit her father. She describes 304 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: the trip to Nashville as a whim. She was working 305 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: on her book and wanted to do some research. There 306 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 1: was some journals she wanted to lay her hands on. 307 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: I'm still stunned by the turn of events that happened 308 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: now four years ago, almost exactly. It came in the 309 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: house and I was looking for the journal, and my 310 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,959 Speaker 1: father came upstairs, and my mother had all these They 311 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: were all these pill bottles that were still on the 312 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: bathroom sink. She had died in two thousand and eight, 313 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 1: um seven years before. And I said, what are these 314 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: bottles doing here? And he said, you know, I just 315 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: I think I'm still in love with your mother. And 316 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,719 Speaker 1: we hugged, and it was the most sincere and deepest 317 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: hug that we'd had in many years, maybe since I 318 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: was a child. He was not comfortable really with a 319 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: lot of touching, so he was even a little but 320 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: I kept him close, and I noticed at that moment 321 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: that in my heart I received those words purely and 322 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: without the usual sarcasm I felt. And I'm so grateful 323 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: that those are the last words we spoke, because the 324 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: next morning he was dead, and my father was in 325 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: perfect health. He'd never been sick of day in his life. 326 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: Amazing the way sometimes we're given a gift, even in 327 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 1: the midst of great pain, a hug, a moment between 328 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: a father and a daughter. Who what was it? The 329 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: therapist once told Emily weren't a good fit as parent 330 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: and child. After her father's death, Emily reaches out to 331 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: the relatively new reverend from her family's church, Reverend Cynthia. 332 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: Her father had been gone for only hours. His body 333 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: was still seated in the chair where he was stricken 334 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: by the massive heart attack. Reverend Cynthia comes to the 335 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: Bernard at home. She performs a beautiful ritual and anoints 336 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: Emily's father's body with oil. And we said that my 337 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: father is sitting in the chair, and tell her everything. 338 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: And she knew everything. And she told me the situation 339 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: between my father and the Curries had been the biggest 340 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: drift in her congregation. She was pretty new to the church. 341 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: My father was mentoring her. He was trying to introduce 342 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 1: her to the kind of social infocacies at our church 343 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: and help her become adjusted to the life at our church. 344 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: And she was trying to make things right. But there 345 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: are people who could not forgive my father. And that 346 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:30,719 Speaker 1: was the first time I knew that people actually had 347 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: been my mother's side. But during the course of their conversation, 348 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: Emily makes another painful discovery. Despite the bottles of her 349 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: mom's prescription medication, despite her dad's confession that he still 350 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,719 Speaker 1: was in love with her, he still had remained intensely 351 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: involved with Jeanette Curry, Jeanette's husband, children and grandchildren, but 352 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: not as a romantic partner. And I found out that 353 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: my father he was eating every meal at Jeanette's house. 354 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,719 Speaker 1: Her grandchildren called him Grandpa. She and her husband had 355 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: a child, and then she and your father had a child, 356 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: and this somehow coexisted as some version of modern family. Absolutely, 357 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: I often think when I understood it when I read 358 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: The Color Purple, I think I was in college and 359 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: at the end of that novel, Mr and she could 360 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: cause Sally so much pain. But they were sitting together 361 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: on the on the porch, and I think they were 362 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: knitting or doing something, all three of them. And that 363 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: was the situation between my father and Jeanette and her family. 364 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: They were survivors of a war, and it was a 365 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: war of their own making, but it was a war 366 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: all the same, and they lived together. Really, my father 367 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: would go over to their house, he every meal there. 368 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: If this man is never gonna stop disappointing me, how 369 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: could he have a relationship with this family after what 370 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 1: they did to my mother? But he did. He took 371 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: Jeanette's grandchildren to church, to school, He helped them with 372 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: their homework, something he never did with my brother. My 373 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: brothers and I think were surprised because he was a 374 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: different person of them. He was an active grandfather. He 375 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: and Jeannette had more of a relationship of equals. They 376 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: would argue. He never argued with my mother. My mother 377 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: never would have questioned him. She was quote unquote the 378 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: perfect wife. You know, That's that's who she was. She 379 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: was living out of some magazine, I mean, and it 380 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: wasn't fake, you know, it was sincere. She was just 381 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: someone who believed that the husband was at the head 382 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: of the family. I mean, I think there's half of 383 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: her that really questioned that. But again, she had been 384 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: groomed for a certain kind of adult life. But he 385 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: Intoett were sparring partners. Um she confronted him with his 386 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: hypocrisy in a way my mother I don't think she 387 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: really would have ever felt comfortable doing that. He was 388 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: nurtured in that family, and he was seen in that 389 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: family in a way that he was not seen in 390 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: our family. He was himself there in a way that 391 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: he could not be with me. I think in my 392 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: brother's and my mother, I learned also that he he 393 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: was trying to in some ways I think repent and 394 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: he and Jeanette would go into you know, laurencome neighborhoods, 395 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 1: the projects, if you will, and proselytize and bring Bibles 396 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: and try to convert people. I mean, I always had 397 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: always on who's very religious. He grew up in the 398 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: Anglican Church in Trinidad. It was very obedient in that way. 399 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: But I mean, I'm still trying to understand this and 400 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: reconciled this portrait with the person I grew up with. 401 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: But that was the truth. I mean, it was corroborated 402 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: by you know, several people that he was on a mission, 403 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: it seems, in the final years of his life, perhaps 404 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: to make right with my mother's memory. He got me 405 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: all for clemp to the it Ish word for little emotional. 406 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: So Emily initiates a face to face with Jeanette. She's torn, 407 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: on the one hand by the horrible history of Jeanette 408 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 1: and her mother and trying to square that history with 409 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: the stories she now hears from Reverend Cynthia about Jeanette's 410 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: current very different relationship with her father. Meanwhile, she's a 411 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: grieving daughter, a complicated grief, to be sure, and she's 412 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: about to bury her father. I behaved in ways I 413 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: really regret around the funeral. I didn't want Jeanette's family there. 414 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: My brothers were bewildered by my degree, my anger, and 415 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: they sort of backed off and said, whatever she wants. 416 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: I didn't want her the service. I made it very 417 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: difficult for her to come to the wake. I was 418 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: full of unleashed fury and I regret that now, and 419 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: Jeanette knows that I regret it. But I couldn't control myself. 420 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 1: It was a really different story, and I thought, now 421 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna, you know, seek vengeance. And I asked Reverend 422 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: Cynthia to be there because when I wanted to witness 423 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: and too, I didn't know if I could trust myself 424 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: and how I would behave so I wanted someone that 425 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: I respected that I thought, you know, I'm not going 426 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: to act full in front of her. And as soon 427 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: as I came in the room, I mean, it was 428 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: just strange to be looking at this woman in the 429 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: eye and I'd studiously ignore her. It was about acting superior, 430 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: but it was also because I was afraid to look 431 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: in her eyes, you know. Over the course of a 432 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: three hour conversation, and I asked her could record it, 433 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: and she agreed. I mean a hundred pages of a transcript. 434 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: I realized that she was as much a victim in 435 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: the situation as my mother. When you say you were afraid, 436 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: you would always been afraid to look around the eye, 437 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: what we were afraid of seeing there? Do you think 438 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: it was maybe that you were afraid of seeing that 439 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: she was a human being? Yes, I think I was 440 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: afraid of seeing a real person and not the villain. 441 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: I needed to keep her as a villain, you know, 442 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: to keep it uncomplicated her as much as I could. 443 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: During that conversation, she says to you, I just wanted 444 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: your mother to forgive me. I wanted her to forgive 445 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: me so bad. And it seems like that was the 446 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: moment for you that it kind of, you know, broke 447 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: open absolutely, because don't we all want that, you know, 448 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 1: I am also my mother's daughter, and that, you know, 449 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 1: I religion or my faith in God is really important 450 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: to me. And you know, every week in church we 451 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: pray for forgiveness. And she made a mistake, something she's 452 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: used as a mistake now. But I'm not a saint, 453 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I've I've hurt people I've been 454 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: careless with other people's emotions. I've been forgiven, you know, 455 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: by friends and by family, So how can I not 456 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: offer her that? And everyone who was hurting the situation 457 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: is no longer alive, so it's really the two of 458 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: us now. And my mother at the end of her 459 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: life was talking a lot about forgiveness and telling me 460 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: that I need to be more forgiving. Ironically, I mean 461 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 1: she was after I'm holding the George for her for years, 462 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: feeling like keeping her anger alive was important. I really 463 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: believe that probably up to that moment with Jeanette, or 464 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: maybe experiencing her anger that she couldn't experience, because the 465 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: way you've described her, that was like the last thing 466 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: she wanted to feel, absolutely and I felt when I 467 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: went to a meet Jeanette, I remember thinking I'm a panther, 468 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: you know. I always thought my mother was like, you know, 469 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: the steer in the headlights, and Janette was like some jackal, 470 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: and I just I was tired of that. And when 471 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: I sat and listened to her, honestly, I realized that 472 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 1: what she wanted was very simple, was from my father 473 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: to be a father to his son, and after he died, 474 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: had gone through all of his papers. I found at 475 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: least one check she had returned from my father, saying 476 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: I don't want your money. But my conditioning was so 477 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: thorough that I edited out of my consciousness. And as 478 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: soon as she said the part about one of my 479 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: mother's forgiveness, it came back into view in my head. 480 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: I thought she never wanted his money. She wanted to 481 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: get you hid to give to Lee what he had 482 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 1: given to us, which was a step up and a 483 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,959 Speaker 1: step out of, you know, all the limitations they were 484 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: living with. She also described for you, or explains to you, 485 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 1: the reasons why she was harassing, which I thought was 486 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: really kind of amazing too. Yeah, and you know, I've 487 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: been driven crazy by a man before. I mean, you 488 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: know what happens. And I think that's partly what happened. 489 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: I think Jenna and I are learning to tell the 490 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: truth to each other. So there are many layers of 491 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: the story that are unfolding. And you know, I think 492 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: it's difficult sometimes to be really truthful when we've heard 493 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: someone so deeply or made mistakes, and I think she's 494 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: grappling with that herself. There's a way which she shaped 495 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: the story to help herself survive. I mean, my father would. 496 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: I also realized that he'd set me up as his 497 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: straw man. I mean, he would tell Jeannette, well, Emily 498 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't want me whenever she wanted him to help her, 499 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: I think with a down payment on on a condition 500 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: she wanted to buy any He was supposed to be 501 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: someone who signed and at the last minute he said, well, 502 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: Emily doesn't want me to do that. Emily doesn't and 503 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: I had never heard of this, So she had a 504 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: feeling about me that it was not accurate because my 505 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: father again was telling multiple stories and keeping people in 506 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: their places. Um. So we've had to undo a lot 507 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: of that, and we've laughed a lot about all the 508 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: things that we believed about each other. But I think, um, 509 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: as we talk, she's feeling safer to tell me the truth. 510 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: You know, she was in a situation at our church 511 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: where all of the people were doctors and lawyers. Here. 512 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: She was feeling very alone, feeling very out of place, 513 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: and everyone was making her feel that way because of 514 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: you know, again loyalty to my parents. She was coming 515 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: to church, I found out because my father had been 516 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: asking her to come to church. I mean every time 517 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: I would come home, she would be at church. I mean, 518 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: he had this idea that he could normalize things and 519 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: then we would come around. And she told me, because 520 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: your father, you're the one he was afraid of, and 521 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: you know, and the thing that was it was funny 522 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: and it was true, but it was also odd to 523 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: realize how much he talked to her about me and 524 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: his fears about me and how I felt about him. 525 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: He said, you know, I know those kids think I 526 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: killed their mother, and I did. So he knew me 527 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: better than I thought he did, and she had a 528 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: lot of intuitive feelings about who I was. It's so 529 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: much about knowing and being known, isn't it. You know 530 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,719 Speaker 1: what I asked you before about what it felt like 531 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: for you when you were in your twenties and thirties 532 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: watching your mother's decline and moving forward in your life, 533 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: and the various feelings you know, you describe them as 534 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: you know, like like all these different trying on different 535 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: feelings for size. I'm going to try vindictiveness, I'm gonna 536 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: try rate, I'm gonna try you know whatever. But mostly 537 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: your concern was about your mother. So I guess what 538 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: I'm wondering is what now is the feeling. You're a 539 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: mother of teenage kids, you're a professor, you're memoirist, you're 540 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: a wife, you know, you're a friend, your many things. 541 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: Why is it important? You know, some people at my 542 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: church have really encouraged me to my home church and Nashville, 543 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: out of concern for me and may be concerned about 544 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: what I'm going to discover, have really advised me very 545 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: gently to leave the story alone. And of course it 546 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,959 Speaker 1: makes that attracts me even more to the story. This 547 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: is the story of my life in some way. When 548 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: I was going down to Nashville to have this talk 549 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,719 Speaker 1: with Jeanette, you know, I was myself confused, why am 550 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: I doing this? And I said to my husband, you know, 551 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: do you understand, because I wanted him to tell me why, 552 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: And he said, this woman has more had more impact 553 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: on your life than any other person besides your parents. 554 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: I think I'm driven to know. I mean, my parents 555 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: are both gone, and you know that's I'm next. So 556 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: the understanding I have from my own experience about just 557 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: wanting to know the truth in all of its ugliness 558 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: and all of its mysteries, I would like to know 559 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: realize I never knew my father. I think other guests 560 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: in your podcast have talked about that. I really never 561 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: knew who he was, and it's still taking me many years. 562 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: I mean, he's taken many years and even say that, 563 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: and I think it will be many more years to 564 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: understand what that means. Janette is honestly one of the 565 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: only people I have left who knows the story. She 566 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: lived the story. I no longer have, you know, vengeful 567 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: feelings toward her, but we have an odd bond. She's 568 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: had some health issues over the years, and at the 569 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: time I went down to talk to her, I felt 570 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: a little urgency about that. You know, before anything happens 571 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: to her, I need to have this conversation. And then 572 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: there's a matter of Lee, Emily's half brother. In a 573 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: story so much about forgiveness and understanding even in the 574 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: most difficult circumstances, this too, is of course a bridge 575 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: that must be crossed. Can you tell me about meeting 576 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: him for the first time? We connected on Facebook? And 577 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: I'm a little embarrassed to say that my first response 578 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: to him was, you know, what is that you want? 579 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: One of the things I've come to realize is that 580 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: when there is what feels like a quote unquote interloper 581 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: in a family without exception. In my experience, the very 582 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: first feeling is threat It's a primitive, hardwired, biological thing 583 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: that happens, which is your other you're outside and people, 584 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: even when they often eventually come around to realizing that 585 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: that's just not the case, I feel threatened. I absolutely 586 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: felt threatened. And Lee said, you know, I just want 587 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: to know my siblings. I just want a big sister. 588 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: Why would I deny him that Lee was thirty one 589 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: years old and Emily in her late forties when they 590 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: first met, and he'd recently been paroled after a minor 591 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: drug offense. It's interesting that this only happened and probably 592 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: only could have happened in the aftermath of your father's death. 593 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 1: It wasn't gonna happen while your father was alive. And 594 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: I think also if I hadn't been there, the curries 595 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: would have discovered him, and that would have been terrible 596 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: because I was still locked in a place of bitterness 597 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: forward them. So I am again it was a great 598 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: gift that he let go of life when I was there. 599 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: It started the whole thing. And right I've told Jette, 600 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: I said, I could never have done this with my father, 601 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: really lea because it would have made him too happy, 602 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: It would have pleased him too watch. There's no way 603 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 1: I could have ever, you know, because I found out 604 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: if his death that that's what he had wanted. And 605 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: he had promised me that he was going to try 606 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: to foster a relationship. But he was too afraid of me, 607 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: I think to say that to me. But it was 608 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: so easy, you know. I mean, my father gave me 609 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,839 Speaker 1: the gift of his death. If I can say that, 610 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: it sounds cruel, but he can't disappoint me anymore. He's 611 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: not allowed to disappoint me anymore. So I can. I 612 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: can warn him, and I can remember him, and he's 613 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: sort of still. And the curtain opened, and there are 614 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,280 Speaker 1: these people and one of them is my brother. And 615 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: you know, my daughters are adopted. And I know that 616 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: love happens in blossoms outside of the genetic relationship. But 617 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: there's something that happened, something that happened. As soon as 618 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: Lee and I saw each other, my heart melted. We 619 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: planned to get together and I thought we should have them, 620 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 1: we should have a date. So first we're reading things together, 621 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: you know, we're reading. That's my mode so we were 622 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: reading books, you know, between exactly and the first time 623 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: we did based on I really couldn't even speak. We're 624 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: just smiling so much. So we met and I looked 625 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: exactly with my father, I mean, the older I get. 626 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: You know, if I walked through the streets in North Nashville, 627 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: people are falling out, there's Dr Bernard. So he was stunned. 628 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: And Lee is just extraordinary. I mean, he had one 629 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: of those kind of revelations when he was in prison 630 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: that you know, he was the author of his own experience, 631 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: and he let go of a lot of bitterness with 632 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: my dad. I have been really humbled by that because 633 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: he has just accepted it, even though he told me once. 634 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:25,919 Speaker 1: You know, he was in jail when my father died 635 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: and he wished he could have asked him, why did 636 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: you have me? Why was I born? And you're left, 637 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: as so often is the case, holding the story holding 638 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: you know, your mother's the rage she couldn't feel that, 639 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,320 Speaker 1: you know that you've worked through, and your father's guilt, 640 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: the guilt that it doesn't seem that he was particularly 641 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: capable of feeling, you know, but it was there. It's 642 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: almost like it was in the cosmos, and somebody had 643 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: to actually kind of contend with it. And so I mean, 644 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,040 Speaker 1: that's how it striking me, is that you're at this 645 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: point where you have these two new relationships, neither one 646 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,359 Speaker 1: of which you could ever have anticipated, you know, one 647 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: with Jeanette and one with Lee, and this is sort 648 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: of the work that needed to be done, and it 649 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,919 Speaker 1: couldn't be done by either of your parents, but it's 650 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: being done now by you. I think part of the 651 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: story when it's taught me is I mean, I thought 652 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,399 Speaker 1: I experienced every emotion, you know, at my age, and 653 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: I hadn't, and I'm experiencing new emotions now that are 654 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: very intriguing to me. I'm surprised every time I hear 655 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: from Janette about the lack of rancor and the eerie 656 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: connection that I have hard time explaining. For instance, after 657 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: this essay came out, I hadn't anticipated how emotional it 658 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: would be to see it in print and to contend 659 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: with the aftermath of telling this little sliver of the truth. 660 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 1: And there are people who cautioned me again in my life, 661 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 1: elders who care about me, who asked me, but also 662 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 1: with some frustration, you know, why are you talking to her. 663 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: Why do you believe her? Maybe I'm naive, but I'm 664 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,439 Speaker 1: interested in what she has to say, and I don't 665 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,720 Speaker 1: think she's lied to me yet. I think she's done 666 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: with lying, and I think we're both at a place 667 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: where we want to know the truth. In fact, when 668 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 1: I started to write the piece and the magazine, she said, 669 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: you know, our story has a lot to teach people 670 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: about fregiveness. And again I just humbled by the wisdom, 671 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:38,399 Speaker 1: by the clarity, the generosity. Well, and it's interesting because 672 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 1: at least as you have spoken about her and written 673 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: about her, she wasn't a liar. She's a lot of 674 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: other hurtful things, but lying, which your father did you 675 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: know full on? It doesn't seem like Jeanette did that. Yeah, 676 00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 1: there's a lot of truth. I'm still content with this. 677 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I had a lifetime of hating this woman. 678 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: It's sometimes hard to accept the fact that she was truthful, 679 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,839 Speaker 1: even when it's staring me in the face. I also 680 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 1: think she's a human being and did more damage than 681 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: she is able to really face right now, which again 682 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,840 Speaker 1: I empathize with him. I think that's just true of 683 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: being a human being that sometimes it's hard to face 684 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 1: our mistakes, especially when they've been profound. There are parts 685 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: of the story they're still very mysterious to me. But 686 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: Janette Is knows I need to see receipts, as we say, 687 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 1: and you know, because she wasn't believed, has kept voice recordings, 688 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:41,399 Speaker 1: She's kept correspondence. She kept records because no one believed her, 689 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: and she's sharing them with me now because she wants 690 00:39:46,040 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: me to know. I'd like to thank Emily Bernard for 691 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: sharing her story with us. Learn more about Emily's memoir 692 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 1: Black Is the Body, Stories from My Grandmother's Time, my 693 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: Mother's time, and mine by visiting Emily Bernard dot com. 694 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is an I Heeart media production. Dylan Fagan 695 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 1: is a supervising producer. Julie Douglas and Bethanne Macaluso are 696 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: the executive producers. If you have a family secret that 697 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 1: you like to share, you can get in touch with 698 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 1: us at listener mail at Family Secrets podcast dot com. 699 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,479 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Danny Writer, 700 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,399 Speaker 1: Facebook at Family Secrets Pod, and Twitter at Family Secrets Pod. 701 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: For more about my book Inheritance, visit Danny Shapiro dot 702 00:40:48,080 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: com Yeah for more podcasts. For my heart radio, visit 703 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 704 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:10,280 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.