Speaker 1: Andrew McCarthy is an actor, writer, and director, and you
Speaker 1: may know him from some of his most iconic eighties
Speaker 1: films like Pretty and Pink, Satan Alma's Spire, and Less
Speaker 1: Than Zero, just to name a few scene every minute
Speaker 1: of them multiple times. But that's not all. Andrew is
Speaker 1: also an author and is releasing his new book Walking
Speaker 1: with Sam, which is an intimate and funny travel memoir
Speaker 1: following Andrew as he walks the Camino de Santiago with
Speaker 1: his son Sam. This is just be with Andrew McCarthy,
Speaker 1: very excited, so we have to get some.
Speaker 2: Awkward things out of the way. If that's okay with you.
Speaker 1: There, I go okay, so I and I'm not This
Speaker 1: is not me like fantasizing about many different people. But
Speaker 1: I only had two childhood like everyone had a bunch.
Speaker 1: Actually I liked Duran Duran a lot, but I had
Speaker 1: two like ride or Die childhood crushes and don't get jealous.
Speaker 1: One was Matt Dylan and the other one was you,
Speaker 1: but like you lasted longer. That sounded wrong, but Matt
Speaker 1: Dylan was like early you lasted longer than Matt Dylan.
Speaker 1: But I you just really and the career that you've
Speaker 1: created and curated and molded and sculpted into something so
Speaker 1: interesting now makes me proud that I bet on the
Speaker 1: right horse early, like mannequin early. So that's just something
Speaker 1: I wanted to get out of the way.
Speaker 3: Thanks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, I've I've watched everything you've done. I just
Speaker 1: in addition to being a heart throw for so many,
Speaker 1: you're so talented and your writing is amazing.
Speaker 2: So I was really excited when Jill told me that
Speaker 2: you were going to be on this podcast.
Speaker 3: Oh I'm equally it's excited, So thank you.
Speaker 1: Awesome, Okay, so, uh but I really mean it. You
Speaker 1: have cultivation this career that to me seems like you're
Speaker 1: really doing things the way exactly the way that you
Speaker 1: want to do it now where you started out obviously
Speaker 1: as an unknown, in which everyone's an unknow when they
Speaker 1: start out, but and you've gotten to this point, it
Speaker 1: feels like where you're doing really things that you're really
Speaker 1: passionate about, but you still are able to monetize them
Speaker 1: and have people receive them, and you just have an
Speaker 1: interesting different career in addition to acting. Is that accurate?
Speaker 1: Do you do a lot of things you don't want
Speaker 1: to do?
Speaker 3: Well, that's a nice way to look at it. I
Speaker 3: don't do as many things as I that I don't
Speaker 3: want to do as I used to. You're right in
Speaker 3: the sense that I'm not a good business man. I'm
Speaker 3: like you, I'm a terrible business man, and so I
Speaker 3: am a business person. So I just do what I
Speaker 3: want to do and sort of feels right to me.
Speaker 3: And I mean, who goes from being an actor to being,
Speaker 3: you know, in movies and TV to being a travel
Speaker 3: writer for you know, that's very downwardly mobile, you know,
Speaker 3: and then I writing these books and stuff. So yeah,
Speaker 3: I just tend to do what I want, what makes
Speaker 3: me feel good in what I like to do. And
Speaker 3: I also I'm a person that likes as few votes
Speaker 3: as possible in my life, and so I don't want
Speaker 3: to need a lot of a big committee to approve
Speaker 3: of what I'm doing. Whereas an acting you're always waiting
Speaker 3: for somebody to call you and give you a chance.
Speaker 3: Or is I like to do I want to do this,
Speaker 3: I'm going to go do this, and I do do
Speaker 3: it sort of like books and travel writing and various
Speaker 3: things like for fun and for free. I do them
Speaker 3: because I want to do them and hopefully they work out.
Speaker 1: You know, so you don't crowdsource ideas whatsoever? Or do
Speaker 1: you crowdsource and then ultimately not at all? Okay, what's interesting.
Speaker 3: Though, I do the opposite of crowdsources. I don't tell
Speaker 3: anybody for as long as possible about what I want
Speaker 3: to do, because invariably people can kind of yeah, and
Speaker 3: that'll kill it for me. It'll just wither on the ball.
Speaker 3: And for me, I just do what I feel to do.
Speaker 3: And okay, is it ready to go out and withstand
Speaker 3: public scrutiny? I hope. So there it is. So I
Speaker 3: do the opposite of crowdsource.
Speaker 1: It's funny that you say that, though, because there are
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, hiring business people that listen
Speaker 1: to this show, and I plan less than one would think.
Speaker 1: I don't have a big grand plan. I too do
Speaker 1: what I want to do and always have. But I
Speaker 1: do think about the chess board. And it sounds like
Speaker 1: you don't think about the chessboard.
Speaker 2: You just are like.
Speaker 1: Moving that piece, and you've you've been like you know,
Speaker 1: Forrest Gump ended up in a pretty good place. And
Speaker 1: I'm not saying you're not inteligent. I'm just saying he
Speaker 1: put one foot in front of the other and did
Speaker 1: whatever was right in front and it seemed to really
Speaker 1: work out for him.
Speaker 2: So I am.
Speaker 3: Looking at me far more successful if I had more
Speaker 3: of an eye on the horizon. And this will be
Speaker 3: to Batman, I want to do that, and then okay,
Speaker 3: if I did.
Speaker 1: That, okay, So how do you manage the business aspects
Speaker 1: of your life? And you know, for your provide for
Speaker 1: your family, and who does all the business stuff, and
Speaker 1: how do you know you can trust them? And how
Speaker 1: do you manage knowing what you don't know, because that's
Speaker 1: as important as knowing what you do.
Speaker 2: Know.
Speaker 3: Well, I know what I don't like to do, and
Speaker 3: I'm not real strong at so I just hire people
Speaker 3: that help me do that. Those aspects of business and
Speaker 3: money and stuff, and you know, having to provide for
Speaker 3: multiple children and parents and things that sort of keeps
Speaker 3: a fire under me to go, Okay, what do I
Speaker 3: gotta do next? What's next? What's next? So I'm always
Speaker 3: thinking about what's next. But I wish I had that
Speaker 3: kind of vision to sort of okay, five years I
Speaker 3: want to be doing this. You know, I just never
Speaker 3: could think like that, And you know, I've trusted people
Speaker 3: that have handled helped me with money and things, and
Speaker 3: it's paid off.
Speaker 1: Have you had a lull in your career or you
Speaker 1: have really just one foot in front of the other,
Speaker 1: been working the entire time some version of success.
Speaker 3: I've been working the entire time. But I'd say there
Speaker 3: was a lull for ten fifteen years. The nineties really
Speaker 3: were low for me in the sense I did bad
Speaker 3: movies or tell bad TV things I would pop in on.
Speaker 3: And it wasn't until I discovered travel writing by accident,
Speaker 3: which led to sort of a creative rebirth for me,
Speaker 3: and that led to books and things and talking about
Speaker 3: it and being involved in that world. That was sort
Speaker 3: of a rebirth for me. And then it sort of
Speaker 3: that led somehow. I think it pushed in my confidence.
Speaker 3: Suddenly I was sort of directing again. I started directing
Speaker 3: television shows and that led to smacking stuff. So you know, success,
Speaker 3: great success and stuff. But I'd say there was a
Speaker 3: good ten to fifteen years where I was in the
Speaker 3: wild and just sort of trying to recapture pest glories,
Speaker 3: you know, and that is never a good thing and
Speaker 3: it's just.
Speaker 2: Not satisfying, right. That's chasing the dragon.
Speaker 1: Most of the people that are very successful that come
Speaker 1: on here really are not motivated by money. They're motivated
Speaker 1: by passion. And that ten years was that? Did you
Speaker 1: resent the way that you came into this business during
Speaker 1: those ten years? Like that you came in in the
Speaker 1: Brat Pack and those movies that were so successful, But
Speaker 1: that's peaking early and then having that's a long time
Speaker 1: to have a lull, I mean in that kind of
Speaker 1: public environment that you work.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, also people aren't really paying intoed anybody
Speaker 3: that's closely But did I resent it? No? It took
Speaker 3: me year decades to come to terms with my early
Speaker 3: success and to realize what a blessing it was, whereas
Speaker 3: it felt very stigmatizing, and I think it was professionally
Speaker 3: stigmatizing for a number of years uh and for decades.
Speaker 3: Uh And so it took me a long time to
Speaker 3: come to terms with that. Really to writing that book
Speaker 3: about the Brat Pack. In my time, writing Brat helped
Speaker 3: me really see you know, the gifts that came with
Speaker 3: that as opposed to just the stigma that came with it.
Speaker 3: Because now it's a very kind of iconic and fuzzy,
Speaker 3: warm phrase and recalls a moment of youth for a
Speaker 3: certain generation. And you know, I'm like this avatar of
Speaker 3: their youth, and so they look at me with kind
Speaker 3: of an affection because I represent something in their youth.
Speaker 3: You're you know, you're a mannequin to you, you know,
Speaker 3: and that's wonderful that it's become that and kind of
Speaker 3: amazing that I've become that. But for a long time,
Speaker 3: it wasn't that. And when it did come, when the
Speaker 3: term was coined, it was, you know, a very negative term.
Speaker 3: You know. It was New York magazine in the MIDI
Speaker 3: right snarky and very you know, and it was a
Speaker 3: real takedown. And you know, I've always said, you know,
Speaker 3: Marty Scrusezy and Steven Spielberg aren't going to call somebody
Speaker 3: who's in the brat pack to be in there.
Speaker 1: Ah, It's funny because it's true. That's that was my
Speaker 1: that's my era of movies, you know. And I wanted
Speaker 1: to move to la and like you know, see you
Speaker 1: and live in the movie pretty in Pink.
Speaker 3: And I lived in New York, so you would have
Speaker 3: missed me.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Well, so that was my era, and I know exactly
Speaker 1: what you're talking about, because I did read those articles.
Speaker 1: And I also know what you're talking about because I
Speaker 1: tried to do a rint from the Housewives being clumped in.
Speaker 1: I like, you didn't like to be clumped in, and
Speaker 1: you're trying to do a rint, so you're kind of
Speaker 1: not remembering where you came from, but you recognize that
Speaker 1: it was good to you. It's like a mixed relationship
Speaker 1: with something. And when you come to a point where
Speaker 1: you could have a good relationship with it, and you know,
Speaker 1: just like it's got some just like a nice memory
Speaker 1: to you overall, that's a good place to get. So
Speaker 1: I actually oddly relate to that because it's got a
Speaker 1: bad connotation.
Speaker 3: It's exactly the same. You know, you're dismissed, is this
Speaker 3: or that? And it's like, wait, you're not even seeing me,
Speaker 3: And particularly when you're young, it's like you just want
Speaker 3: to be That's all any of us ever want is
Speaker 3: to be seen, see who I am, you know. And
Speaker 3: so later in life, you know, with these books and
Speaker 3: various things and starting to direct and the stuff I've
Speaker 3: been doing acting wise a little bit, so I've gone
Speaker 3: back to that a little bit. It's much more you know,
Speaker 3: since I stopped caring in a certain sense, I just yes, yeah,
Speaker 3: and I'm going to do what I want to do,
Speaker 3: and hopefully it's successful enough that I'll get another opportunity
Speaker 3: to keep doing it. But the rest of it, I
Speaker 3: don't really. I just don't care anymore.
Speaker 1: I get that the least the least interested party always wins.
Speaker 1: I tell my twelve year old at school, if there's
Speaker 1: a boy or something, I'm like, just relax, it's going
Speaker 1: to be what it's going to be. It's funny that
Speaker 1: you say that and I read part of your book
Speaker 1: Brat that we're talking about. It's so much much more
Speaker 1: than the title.
Speaker 2: The writing.
Speaker 1: You're really good writer. Like just the way you describe
Speaker 1: some small, nuanced moment in a scene is really interesting.
Speaker 1: Or when you met jack Linbussett, Like you're very very descriptive.
Speaker 1: It's just really real. Like I was like reading more
Speaker 1: than I needed to for this podcast, and I felt
Speaker 1: like I was reading a book and I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god. I said to Jill Andrew and my publicist. Coincidentally,
Speaker 1: I said to Jill, he's a good writer. Like I'm impressed.
Speaker 1: So I like that you kind of have a whole
Speaker 1: other layer to your life and career. And then that
Speaker 1: there's travel. Is it that you love to travel? Is
Speaker 1: it that you love to write or that you really
Speaker 1: love to just write about travel?
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you know, acting changed my life. When
Speaker 3: I was fifteen years old, I walked out on stage
Speaker 3: in the high school plays the Artful Dodger in Oliver
Speaker 3: and my life was different that you know, that's what
Speaker 3: I'm That's what I'm and talking about. No crowdsourcing. I
Speaker 3: knew it was so important to me that I didn't
Speaker 3: tell a soul. I just went out something happened to me,
Speaker 3: don't count anybody, And that's what I'm doing with my life.
Speaker 3: And then you know, when I was traveling, I was
Speaker 3: walking across the Comuno to San Antiago. It's a longer
Speaker 3: answer than you want it, which is it's not very
Speaker 3: insane to like twenty eight years ago and I had
Speaker 3: a moment where I sort of at a moment of
Speaker 3: clarity where I broke down in sobs in the middle
Speaker 3: of this weet field and I realized how much some
Speaker 3: of fear had dominated my life. And it was a
Speaker 3: very liberating moment. And so I just started traveling the
Speaker 3: world a lot alone and traveling because and then it
Speaker 3: was like my university. I was kicked out of college
Speaker 3: and travel was like my university. I discovered who I
Speaker 3: was by being far from home and alone in the world.
Speaker 3: And I thought paradoxically very safe alone far from home
Speaker 3: in the world. And so then I just started writing
Speaker 3: about that, and that is then evolved into books and stuff.
Speaker 3: So I love I think travel is meaningful and changes
Speaker 3: people's lives if we let it. And it's not just
Speaker 3: about you know, bucketless and you know, Instagram shots. It's
Speaker 3: profound and meaningful if we let it be. And so
Speaker 3: that was important to me. And I felt the same
Speaker 3: way and I did that that I felt when I
Speaker 3: first started acting. You know, I felt like, oh, there
Speaker 3: I am, that's me. I feel like me when I
Speaker 3: do that, and so and then so I kept, then
Speaker 3: I kept and the more I you know, and I'm
Speaker 3: pretty much the loner in then anyway. So I love
Speaker 3: to sit alone in the room and right does means
Speaker 3: that day, you know, so you know, and then the
Speaker 3: thing with that is that it's that it's received and
Speaker 3: fellow success was great. But on the other hand, as
Speaker 3: you know as well, it's like I'll always be oh,
Speaker 3: he's the actor. I thinks he's a writer, now okay,
Speaker 3: And to that I can do nothing about that. So
Speaker 3: it's go whatever. If you bother to read it, you'll
Speaker 3: have a real opinion as opposed to just some preconceived notion,
Speaker 3: you know. And again that's none of my business.
Speaker 1: Stuff, right, But how does this travel which seems like
Speaker 1: and I want to get to your book when you
Speaker 1: travel with your son, But how does this travel mesh
Speaker 1: with your relationships? Because I think about things that I
Speaker 1: like to do by myself, and there's certain types of
Speaker 1: travel I like to do my myself and certain types
Speaker 1: I like to do with my daughter, not with my partner.
Speaker 1: And it sounds like there's a lot of exploration and solitude.
Speaker 1: So how do you pull away? And you know, this
Speaker 1: is like your city slickers, go find your smile a
Speaker 1: happy place, Like how do you craft? How do you
Speaker 1: get that? Because many people have all these you know,
Speaker 1: the kids, the work, the obligation, the partner, and that's
Speaker 1: your own thing.
Speaker 3: I don't get to as much as anymore as the ants.
Speaker 3: And I got all these pesky kids, and you know,
Speaker 3: traveling with other people, it's a very different thing than
Speaker 3: traveling alone. And you know, and that's fine. Great, So
Speaker 3: I don't get to as much as I used to.
Speaker 3: I still occasionally sneak away, but like next week, I'm
Speaker 3: going to Botswana for a travel story for magazine and
Speaker 3: I'm taking my nine year old son with me. And
Speaker 3: you know, so you know, I told the magazine, go, okay,
Speaker 3: that's great, I'll do the story. But I got to
Speaker 3: take my nine year old because he wants to see elephants.
Speaker 3: And so it's a great privilege, you know, right.
Speaker 1: But it's different, it's different than you be. It's like
Speaker 1: a little selfish travel.
Speaker 3: Yeahs, it's entirely different, entirely.
Speaker 2: Selfish travel to be like a blog or something.
Speaker 1: So and also, you know, you've directed almost as much
Speaker 1: as you've acted, like you've directed things that I was
Speaker 1: surprised by.
Speaker 2: I didn't.
Speaker 1: I mean I was reading through everything about you, and
Speaker 1: there have been a lot of the things that you've
Speaker 1: touched that I definitely wouldn't have known. So how about
Speaker 1: directing is that where does that fall on your list
Speaker 1: of passions?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, directing something I stumbled into because I
Speaker 3: directed the early episodes of Orange is the New Black,
Speaker 3: when that was still you know, when Netflix was like
Speaker 3: people that sent you DVDs to your house and the mail,
Speaker 3: and and so I directed a bunch of those, and
Speaker 3: then suddenly came on with the Sensation of the Year,
Speaker 3: and suddenly I was a brilliant director because I directed,
Speaker 3: you know, and so I was successful then, and so
Speaker 3: I just stumbled into this career of being a television director,
Speaker 3: which I did and continue to do for you know,
Speaker 3: last fifteen years or so. But I have to say
Speaker 3: it's not as in all, directing televisions is ultimately not
Speaker 3: very satisfying work. It's like, uh, you get in great shape.
Speaker 3: It's sort of like going to the director gym. You know,
Speaker 3: it's like working on one week and work and children,
Speaker 3: but you're not really doing something deeply creative and satisfying. Ultimately,
Speaker 3: I'm servicing your vision if I'm directing a TV show
Speaker 3: that's not your own show. So it's not all. I've
Speaker 3: come to a place where it's I'm quite proficient at it.
Speaker 3: I you know, I'm good at it because it's just
Speaker 3: something I've spent my whole life on sets, so I
Speaker 3: know how they work, I know where time is wasted.
Speaker 3: I know what one needs to do, and to be
Speaker 3: a good TV director you have to be decisive and
Speaker 3: I know how to make a decision, and so, you know,
Speaker 3: I enjoy it, but ultimately I find it not that satisfying.
Speaker 1: That's interesting because I thought that a little bit about acting,
Speaker 1: because it's someone else's character, someone else's story, versus just
Speaker 1: playing your being yourself, like being able to express yourself
Speaker 1: and improvise. And I think about like shows like Curb
Speaker 1: Your Enthusiasm where someone gets to just sort of riff
Speaker 1: a little bit. So how does how do you get
Speaker 1: to really explore as an actor when you're playing someone
Speaker 1: else's words and someone else's character.
Speaker 3: Well, that's entirely different, you know. But acting is funny
Speaker 3: to me because it's like breathing to me. Like I
Speaker 3: just thought I had acted on the show this last year.
Speaker 3: I hadn't really acted in good ten years and acted
Speaker 3: on the show for a season, and it was just
Speaker 3: going back to it again. I'd learned so much in
Speaker 3: that interval of ten years of working with actor, you know. So,
Speaker 3: but there's something very different about it. It's not like that.
Speaker 3: It's it's something very private and intimate with yourself in
Speaker 3: a certain way where you know, I always directing is stressful.
Speaker 3: An acting causes anxiety because you know you're trying to
Speaker 3: summon things up inside you and sort of share them
Speaker 3: in a way that you're both open and vulnerable and
Speaker 3: yet protected. And so it's a complicated dance you're playing
Speaker 3: with yourself if you're going to try and be truthfuughted
Speaker 3: and good at it. So I just don't, you know,
Speaker 3: I suppose first and foremost I'm an actor, So coming
Speaker 3: back to it just feels very natural to me.
Speaker 1: Right well, meeting you, I see you in a lot
Speaker 1: of your the characters play, which is comforting. You know,
Speaker 1: often you see someone and like they're nothing like the
Speaker 1: characters that they've played. So you have managed to have
Speaker 1: a career where well you don't may not want anyone
Speaker 1: to know who you are, but who I'm not, Like, Wow,
Speaker 1: he's nothing like he Wasn't you know what I'm saying? Like,
Speaker 1: even in the early stuff, I'm seeing a little a
Speaker 1: lot of you in you. Does that make any sense?
Speaker 3: Sure? Of course? Yeah? I mean there's nothing to say
Speaker 3: except yeah, I mean I'm not one of those I
Speaker 3: am not a chameleon, It's true, But I'm trying to
Speaker 3: reveal sort of it sounds so pretentious, but you just
Speaker 3: want to reveal something truth so that truthful, so that
Speaker 3: as are you watching and go oh, I feel that
Speaker 3: and it's not your head. It's like in the same
Speaker 3: thing in writing, if you can get the reader to
Speaker 3: nod their head, you know, it's like, okay, I get
Speaker 3: what you you know, then you have a connection and
Speaker 3: that kind of all you ever really want with people somehow,
Speaker 3: identification and connection and we're less alone And isn't that
Speaker 3: what all this storytelling is about is to make people
Speaker 3: less alone?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Can you answer what percentage? This is like a fantasy,
Speaker 1: stupid question, but I just want to hear from your perspective,
Speaker 1: what percentage do you think in your career? Is luck, work,
Speaker 1: hard work, and skill? Like you know each is it
Speaker 1: a third or third or third? Or have you been
Speaker 1: very lucky or have you worked your ass off to
Speaker 1: get there?
Speaker 2: Like what's the combo?
Speaker 3: You know? Ben Hogan was a great golfriend. He always
Speaker 3: used to say the luck is in the dirt, meaning
Speaker 3: he would practice hours and hours and hours hitting golf
Speaker 3: balls in the dirt. And you know, the harder you work,
Speaker 3: the luckier you get, I think and what I have
Speaker 3: been wildly fortunate in their moments when people have helped
Speaker 3: me in the most unlikely ways. And my first job
Speaker 3: I ever got was because some a friend of mine
Speaker 3: called me up and said, I saw an add in
Speaker 3: the new newspaper. They're looking for someone eighteen vulnerable and
Speaker 3: sensitive to beau leading a movie an loo can call
Speaker 3: and I'm like, that's me. So Eddie and not called
Speaker 3: me and told me that I never would have gone
Speaker 3: to this open call with five hundred other eighteen vulnerable
Speaker 3: and sensitive kids.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: And time and time again, people have sort of angels
Speaker 3: just passing through my life have just kind of pointed
Speaker 3: something out, And if I have any ability, it's been
Speaker 3: able to recognize that instant when someone points to something
Speaker 3: for it to go. It's like that's in Star Wars
Speaker 3: when they shoot that missile at the end and it
Speaker 3: goes into the desk store and it finds its way down.
Speaker 3: I've been able to hear those moments really and they
Speaker 3: go deep and I go after those things. So that's
Speaker 3: my skill in a certain way. But your block is
Speaker 3: the massive porton timing, timing, timing, It's no matter you know,
Speaker 3: the brat Pack happened, and those movies happened because of
Speaker 3: what had been happening through the seventies and movies evolving
Speaker 3: and then suddenly discovering of a youth market and then
Speaker 3: you know, boom, there it happens, and John Hughes comes
Speaker 3: along at that instant and so it's all And I
Speaker 3: happen to be one of those guys at that instant.
Speaker 1: Right, so I walked into the right room. You just
Speaker 1: happened to walk into that room, and that room was
Speaker 1: like yeah.
Speaker 3: And then also when you walk into that room though
Speaker 3: because other people walk into that room, you walk into
Speaker 3: that room, you have to this is the moment right now,
Speaker 3: deliver and you yes, when your moment comes, you have
Speaker 3: to be ready to deliver. And there have been many
Speaker 3: times in my life when I haven't been ready when
Speaker 3: the moment.
Speaker 1: Yes, well yes, that makes me think of like you're
Speaker 1: on the boat, you have your net, you're prepared, you know,
Speaker 1: you're centered, and then like so you are you know
Speaker 1: how to go where the fish are? Or for surfers,
Speaker 1: I always think it's like a set. You know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of shitty waves that come and if you
Speaker 1: try to battle it and like go in and get
Speaker 1: beaten down you're too tired for when the good set comes,
Speaker 1: or you can just sit and chill and wait and
Speaker 1: you're like, this is about to be a good set,
Speaker 1: you know, I think does a million.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's very true. And we do beat ourselves.
Speaker 3: I mean so many times I'm just grinding to try
Speaker 3: and make a not good set into a good one,
Speaker 3: and it's like, this isn't a good waight, no matter
Speaker 3: what you're doing here and how hard you're beating yourself
Speaker 3: up and grinding, this is never going to be a
Speaker 3: good ride here. So and now you just missed a
Speaker 3: good one.
Speaker 1: Because exactly, thank you, exactly exactly. So that's what that's
Speaker 1: that's what I think you have.
Speaker 3: To be able to write.
Speaker 2: You.
Speaker 3: That takes trust in waiting for that okay, I wait
Speaker 3: for this and then knowing when it's coming. Okay, go
Speaker 3: because often those good waves to carry this metaphor are
Speaker 3: a little bigger than we're comfortable.
Speaker 1: Yes, you better fucking ride that thing like it's your
Speaker 1: play tennis the best.
Speaker 3: Yeah, fear takes over you somehow don't quite catch it right,
Speaker 3: and you can blame all sorts of things, but it's
Speaker 3: really fear that made you miss it. And so those
Speaker 3: waves will always be bigger than we're ready for if
Speaker 3: you wanted success to take you to the next level, right,
Speaker 3: And I've often I've found myself missing those waves at
Speaker 3: times because I doubt it an instant when you just
Speaker 3: need to go one hunt.
Speaker 1: That's a great it's so true. That's such a true
Speaker 1: thing about it. The waves a little bigger than you,
Speaker 1: but too bad. This is your moment you ride it.
Speaker 1: That's so so interesting. And Kelly Rippa said to me
Speaker 1: alcohol is unnecess which I thought. I always say to her,
Speaker 1: you like a little wise owl. So what do you
Speaker 1: think about that sentence.
Speaker 3: I mean, clearly it is. I mean it'll almost destroyed
Speaker 3: my life, But I mean clearly it's unnecessary. I mean
Speaker 3: I've lived without it for thirty years now, I've gotten
Speaker 3: much better. But it did. But it's also I thought
Speaker 3: it was it became necessary. There's a certain you know,
Speaker 3: if you have a problem with alcohol and you're attracted
Speaker 3: to alcohol and it's attracted to you and you meet,
Speaker 3: it seems like it's solving a lot of problems. You know.
Speaker 3: There's a great line. A man takes a drink. Then
Speaker 3: a drink takes a drink, Then the drink takes the man,
Speaker 3: you know, and you don't know when that's happening. You know,
Speaker 3: alcohol it's a good kind of sea and a social
Speaker 3: lubricant and even professional one. And at a certain point
Speaker 3: it turns in and attacks you. But that point of
Speaker 3: when it does that is invisible and in my experience,
Speaker 3: and so you know, alcohol is a slippery slope. You
Speaker 3: know it's me It was vicious, you know.
Speaker 2: It really was. That was during that time years no id.
Speaker 3: Stopped drinking by that, And it took me a long time.
Speaker 3: I stopped drinking in ninety two, and I'd tak for
Speaker 3: ten years after that. I was in the wild professionally.
Speaker 3: But I also would say it took me a long time.
Speaker 3: It's for my head to clear and emotionally to get
Speaker 3: myself under me again. After I stopped, I drank probably
Speaker 3: for about ten years in a serious way, maybe eight,
Speaker 3: and in a way that was destructive, and so it
Speaker 3: took a while to recover from that.
Speaker 1: But it's not even something you think about now, right,
Speaker 1: do you even think about it? It's just like something
Speaker 1: that somebody used to know.
Speaker 3: Now, well, it just is now, you know. But any
Speaker 3: good alcohol will tell you which I consider myself when
Speaker 3: all bets are off for tomorrow, you know, in a
Speaker 3: certain way. A call. It's a funny thing, you know,
Speaker 3: and it's a slippery slope, you know, like we said.
Speaker 3: And so I mean, yes, it's very much. My life
Speaker 3: now is very much being not drinking. It just is
Speaker 3: in my life. But again I think, you know, I
Speaker 3: don't think I'm a cucumber. Again. I think once you
Speaker 3: pick the cucumber, it's a pickle. I four its more
Speaker 3: vodka down my throat. It would be a great idea.
Speaker 3: Too much too. I have a wondrous life, you know,
Speaker 3: and I have too much to lose.
Speaker 1: And yeah, well I did not know that your son
Speaker 1: was your son. And I watched Dead to Me with
Speaker 1: my daughter, and like, now it makes sense to me.
Speaker 1: He's an interesting actor and he's a little he's Depp.
Speaker 1: He's got depth charm complex, you know, the boyish charm
Speaker 1: that you have. So that makes when I heard that,
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, that's so interesting. So he's an actor.
Speaker 1: And how old your daughter she's twelve, it's young for
Speaker 1: her to watch that stuff, but she watches. She watched
Speaker 1: Handmaid's Tale, she walked in and she fell in love
Speaker 1: with it. I was watching crazy stuff when I was
Speaker 1: a kid, So that's okay.
Speaker 2: How old is he? How old is Sam?
Speaker 1: That is twenty one now, so he's twenty one. And
Speaker 1: have you always been close and had a good relationship
Speaker 1: with him?
Speaker 3: Yes, it's the simple answer. Yes we did. I mean
Speaker 3: I was terrified of my father and had no relationship
Speaker 3: with my father at all when I left home at seventeen.
Speaker 3: I never that was the end of a relationship really
Speaker 3: and until he was dying basically when I went to him.
Speaker 3: But so he was really, you know, kind of the
Speaker 3: most important thing in my life. I always if I
Speaker 3: have a relationship with my adult children, If my children
Speaker 3: are adults and they want to have a relationship with
Speaker 3: me throughout their life, than my life will have been
Speaker 3: a great success.
Speaker 1: Literally, same story, same exact whole story as the last
Speaker 1: minute of what you said. So I really really get that.
Speaker 1: And do you overcompensate? Because have you overcompensated?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: I feel like we're the world our kids. When we
Speaker 1: were kids, people just were like, let out the backyard
Speaker 1: with us. We're doing everything with our kids. We're bonding,
Speaker 1: we're having moments, we're having experiences, we're talking about our feelings,
Speaker 1: which we're going to get into your book in a minute.
Speaker 1: But have you do you feel like you've done a
Speaker 1: decent job as a parent.
Speaker 3: I'm present for that and I shall, you know. I
Speaker 3: tell them the truth as much as I can, and
Speaker 3: I you know, but if I've overcompetated, it was that
Speaker 3: I think I wanted. I was afraid of the day
Speaker 3: that my kids would just my oldest son particularly say
Speaker 3: would just wake up and hate me the way it came,
Speaker 3: and so I overcompetated in that, and I think in
Speaker 3: trying to prevent that, it's sure as it happens. So
Speaker 3: I give it relaxed enough at a certain point to
Speaker 3: just trust that my relationship with him is not the
Speaker 3: one I had with my father, and it's a different thing.
Speaker 1: It's so funny that you say that, because we see
Speaker 1: some of the things we see our parents in us,
Speaker 1: whether we you know, loved them, hated them, you know,
Speaker 1: so we see it, and I have the exact same
Speaker 1: thing where I'll do something or i'll say something, and
Speaker 1: obviously I'm acres away from my parents, but I have
Speaker 1: that same thought sometimes and I'm obviously ten years, nine
Speaker 1: years behind you, but I really I know exactly what
Speaker 1: you're talking about.
Speaker 2: It's not even a ration.
Speaker 1: It's rational, but sort of not rational because with the
Speaker 1: kind of parenting it seems like you're doing and I've done,
Speaker 1: there'd be no reason for there to be no relationship.
Speaker 1: But it is a realistic fear. I mean, it makes sense.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean that's why I that's why we
Speaker 3: walked across Spain together. Was I wanted to sort of
Speaker 3: segue because you know, now he was nineteen when we
Speaker 3: did that, and we we he wasn't going to tolerate,
Speaker 3: you know, day to day parenting anymore. So we had
Speaker 3: to what's going to fill that void? You know? And
Speaker 3: I wanted to show him who I was and to
Speaker 3: be to you know, the relationship just had to change
Speaker 3: in a certain way if it was going to grow
Speaker 3: to a deeper level as opposed to parent and child.
Speaker 2: Wow, tolerate day to day parenting.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting and smart, and I've never heard anyone
Speaker 1: else say that before. He wasn't because it's true that
Speaker 1: like a real even relationship from like a baby. For me,
Speaker 1: it's been like a baby to a tween, like you're
Speaker 1: a human being. You have your own decisions, Like I
Speaker 1: can't just go in there and like pack for you
Speaker 1: as I want to, or organize your closet or.
Speaker 2: Make you eat.
Speaker 1: Think, you know, that's interesting. So Walking with Sam is
Speaker 1: the book that you wrote to bridge being someone that
Speaker 1: you're parenting to being you know some of you have
Speaker 1: a different parental relationship with. And what was that actually?
Speaker 1: Like how long was the trip?
Speaker 3: We walked for five hundred miles and it was about
Speaker 3: a month, and it was you know, it was life
Speaker 3: changing deep Like I said, I did it twenty seven
Speaker 3: years ago, and it was life changing the first time
Speaker 3: when I, as I was mentioning earlier, how fear was
Speaker 3: revealed to me and that changed my life. And this
Speaker 3: changed book. It changed our relationship, the dynamic of it
Speaker 3: just I grew to just trust it more and did
Speaker 3: not need to fix and have answers and solve things.
Speaker 3: I had the great luxury that you rarely have with
Speaker 3: adult children, which is time. You know, I was walking
Speaker 3: beside them every day for five hundred miles, and I
Speaker 3: didn't need to solve the problems and give advice. I
Speaker 3: just mostly just shut up and or just let him
Speaker 3: talk dog. Maybe you have one little thought, you know,
Speaker 3: when I did that, this happened, and I'll let him
Speaker 3: find his own way so that he then you know,
Speaker 3: one of the things, it's like, I've always you advocate
Speaker 3: for your children, but at a certain point, as they're
Speaker 3: growing and grow into their adulthood, you advocate for them
Speaker 3: to them, meaning I'm going to tell you what I
Speaker 3: really think here, Sam, and take it, take it or
Speaker 3: leave it. But I'm advocating for you because I believe
Speaker 3: this in what you're saying, and you can choose to believe.
Speaker 3: And so if he knows I'm being truthful and really
Speaker 3: advocating for him, and I have his best interest in
Speaker 3: my heart. Whether he agrees with it or not, it's fine.
Speaker 3: But he's more likely to come to me and go.
Speaker 3: My son called me the other day and said, tell
Speaker 3: you've got seven minutes. I'm like, yeah, go, And he said,
Speaker 3: I'm thinking this about my relationship. And I just listened
Speaker 3: to that sounds about right, that sounds human. All right,
Speaker 3: got to go buy you know. And so it's it's
Speaker 3: just changing. And I never had that with my father.
Speaker 3: My father's a terrifying man. And then there was no relationship,
Speaker 3: so there's no put forward in my life, so us
Speaker 3: figuring out how to be there and be sort of
Speaker 3: how do we buy? And I'm not interested in being
Speaker 3: my son's powers buddy and his dad always be his dad.
Speaker 3: That's what I want. Go out into the world, look
Speaker 3: behind you, and I'm here, but you go on and
Speaker 3: I'll be back. And you know that's and so anyway
Speaker 3: I walk. And the book is about coming to know
Speaker 3: each other as adults and sort of parenting and childing
Speaker 3: and you know what that entails.
Speaker 1: It's so funny because the thing that jumped off the
Speaker 1: page is you saying, let him talk. And I find that,
Speaker 1: you know, how is school today? That stupid thing that
Speaker 1: starts when kids are young is the worst. Like they
Speaker 1: will never tell you how school is? And how is that?
Speaker 1: And who to hang out with?
Speaker 2: Today?
Speaker 1: What how is whatever? Like it's the worst thing ever.
Speaker 1: They'll never say anything. Then, and I find that, you know,
Speaker 1: my daughter's a very old soul, and she'll say to me,
Speaker 1: can we be present? Like she'll say that at a
Speaker 1: meal or in a car. And I realize, because and
Speaker 1: I put all the pieces together, that those are the
Speaker 1: places where we're just screwing around, eating fried food or
Speaker 1: just driving somewhere, and those are the times when she'll
Speaker 1: start saying, just out of nowhere, something that you would
Speaker 1: never think she'd say. She'll be like, this person was
Speaker 1: mean to me today, something that's monumental like for her
Speaker 1: to say to me, And you never get that in
Speaker 1: those sort of proactive moments. So I really, I really,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine what it would be like to be
Speaker 1: on a month long trip and what would come out
Speaker 1: by just sitting back and being present.
Speaker 3: You know, my son, you sit him down for a chat,
Speaker 3: you never get a word out of him, but you
Speaker 3: get a move and adventures. You know. He had just
Speaker 3: broken up with his first love, which is why we
Speaker 3: went on the trip from the first place. He was nineteen,
Speaker 3: He had just broke it out of the relationship for
Speaker 3: a year. It was a big deal. It was his
Speaker 3: first heartache. And he gave to me said, Dad, if
Speaker 3: you ever want to do that stupid walk you always
Speaker 3: talk about, I'll go do it. And I literally went
Speaker 3: from that concert to the other room my computer, bought
Speaker 3: two tickets, and two days later we were in Spain
Speaker 3: walking not mine, you know. And so every morning we'd
Speaker 3: wake up and we'd start walking, and I just knew,
Speaker 3: just wait, just wait, and whether it took fifteen minutes
Speaker 3: or an hour, eventually, Sam, which is so so then
Speaker 3: she said, and I said, we're in the middle of
Speaker 3: a conversation and it'll always start pouring out, and he
Speaker 3: just needed to heal and talk, and I was the
Speaker 3: one that got to be there. And that was a
Speaker 3: great blessing and gift for me to be able to
Speaker 3: be present from that. You know, yes, you know, because
Speaker 3: when kids are little we were talking about he reminded
Speaker 3: me earlier, when you're talking about your daughter. No longer,
Speaker 3: you know, you can't tell him what to wear anymore.
Speaker 3: And like my youngest son is nine, I still have
Speaker 3: that great luxury of being able to just make him
Speaker 3: happy with whatever I do. You know, I can just
Speaker 3: make him happy. And it is you know, and that's
Speaker 3: long gone, you know, you're it's gone with you now
Speaker 3: at twelve, and it's gone with my adult son. And
Speaker 3: so it's a different dynamic that has to take its place,
Speaker 3: and that takes active. I'm discovering active, you know, choice.
Speaker 1: Right, But you're right, it's always a non sequity. So
Speaker 1: you're sitting back. Do he used to be able to
Speaker 1: take a bath? You know, I'd be a bath And
Speaker 1: she just says something, So that's a good lesson. Wow, well,
Speaker 1: hold on, you have a nine year old and a
Speaker 1: twenty one year old and.
Speaker 2: How old your middle child?
Speaker 3: And she's sixteen.
Speaker 2: Oh, so you're like in between all the things I'm
Speaker 2: talking about, and that's very interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow, those are like you're like in every aspect that's
Speaker 1: of childhood.
Speaker 2: That's crazy.
Speaker 1: What has what has been your rose and your thorn
Speaker 1: of your career, not your life, not parenting, just your career,
Speaker 1: like the high the best thing that you could just
Speaker 1: remember off the top of your head and the worst
Speaker 1: thing if you can. And it may be the same thing.
Speaker 3: It is the same thing. It's when I was in
Speaker 3: the brad pap you know. Wow, it's both, although I
Speaker 3: find it much more interesting now, but that was professionally.
Speaker 3: That was you know, the bloom and the thorn. It's simultaneously,
Speaker 3: for sure. And I'll always be you know, it's the
Speaker 3: first thing you'll say to me, oh when you're in
Speaker 3: the brada, of course, and that's always and you know
Speaker 3: what that be a dry flower on my shelf is
Speaker 3: a great thing as supposed.
Speaker 1: To like fucking you know, I get it, Yes, I
Speaker 1: get it. I'm having a great time right now. I
Speaker 1: have a podcast re talking about the Housewives and talking
Speaker 1: about real normal issues via the shit show that it
Speaker 1: sometimes is, and I'm having a good time. It's like
Speaker 1: nice when you can have a good relationship with something
Speaker 1: you know that you didn't have a good relationship with.
Speaker 1: It's really it's nice. I fully get that you're further
Speaker 1: away from it. But also I was when I was
Speaker 1: looking through at who the rap pack was and the movies,
Speaker 1: It's rare that so many people would have had a
Speaker 1: career with longevity and like a roller coaster ride, people
Speaker 1: have had, you know, have really hit it and then
Speaker 1: had a lull, but like overall, most people in that
Speaker 1: group have been successful, right, Like I mean I'm looking
Speaker 1: at I was looking at the Outsiders, looking at saying
Speaker 1: I'm a spire. I was looking at all those movies.
Speaker 1: People have had good careers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean people are still hanging around, you know,
Speaker 3: and that's long. It's you know, almost forty years ars ago.
Speaker 3: And yeah, but interesting because ultimately I think the broad pack,
Speaker 3: you know, and I'm in the middle of making documentary
Speaker 3: about the broad Pack, and actually, I've got to see
Speaker 3: a bunch of the people who I hadn't talked to
Speaker 3: in thirty odd years. And you know, if I've been
Speaker 3: in the same movies and the term brad Pack didn't exist,
Speaker 3: I would be some guy who was in a bunch
Speaker 3: of some of these movies. But because the Brat, I'm
Speaker 3: part of this iconic thing that happened in pop culture,
Speaker 3: you know. So it's you know, ultimately I think been
Speaker 3: a you know, a real blessing, which it just like
Speaker 3: if you told me that even ten years ago, I
Speaker 3: would have said, you're out of your mind.
Speaker 1: Interesting, you were part of a pop culture phenomenon. I
Speaker 1: relate to that too, for better or for worse, the negatives.
Speaker 1: And that's funny, Like you're part of something that was
Speaker 1: in the zeitgeist in you know, Like that's so interesting.
Speaker 1: And are you does everybody are you? Are you do
Speaker 1: any relationship with these people? And are you quote unquote
Speaker 1: the one to do the documentary? Like does it make
Speaker 1: sense to everybody? Because like there was a comedy documentary
Speaker 1: recently and Mike Binder is the one who's narrating it,
Speaker 1: and it's interesting because he wouldn't be the person you'd
Speaker 1: think we'll be doing a documentary on the Comedy Store.
Speaker 2: So are people?
Speaker 1: Are people really leaning in to do it because you're
Speaker 1: the one directing it?
Speaker 3: Well, uh, what are you doing? Well, you know it's me.
Speaker 3: I'm just sort of getting my car in or on
Speaker 3: the plane and just go to people's houses and say,
Speaker 3: let's talk about this. I haven't seen you. It's great
Speaker 3: to see you. This is what it did to my life,
Speaker 3: what to do to yours? And it did the exact
Speaker 3: same thing to all I'm as you know, and so
Speaker 3: it's been interesting and a lot of people, several people said, well,
Speaker 3: you're the only one who could do this, and I'm
Speaker 3: not sure why to say that, but you know, and
Speaker 3: there are other people. There are a couple that just
Speaker 3: don't want to talk about it. I'm not talking about this,
Speaker 3: you know. The whole thing is that it's what I
Speaker 3: find fasting. Still thirty five years later, whatever long it is,
Speaker 3: it's still so raw to some people I don't want
Speaker 3: to talk about them. Really. Wow, that which just sort
Speaker 3: of proves my point that it was a seminal experience.
Speaker 1: And yes, I'm excited for it. I can't believe it
Speaker 1: hasn't been done. Like I'm now thinking about you.
Speaker 3: I can't tell you why it hasn't been done. It's
Speaker 3: because no one from the out I would certainly never
Speaker 3: talk to anything like Emilio came. I said, Melio. He said,
Speaker 3: I would never have talked to anybody about this, but
Speaker 3: you like if so. I've been asked, and I've been
Speaker 3: asked dozens and dozens of times if you're doing a
Speaker 3: rat pack kind of thing, and no, not interested, not interested,
Speaker 3: And so it was because it was one of us
Speaker 3: kind of japing it because we're remembers like you are
Speaker 3: of this club.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm upset.
Speaker 1: You don't understand. I've watched I've watched Santa's I watch
Speaker 1: it now. I will never turn Sana'm as Fire off.
Speaker 1: There are only how many movies in your life?
Speaker 2: Will you never? I will never turn Shindler's List off.
Speaker 2: I probably won't. I won't turn Wall Street off.
Speaker 1: I would turn the Shining off of maybe like there's
Speaker 1: just some weird movie that Santa Almost Fire and also
Speaker 1: about last Night. I will never turn them off. Never
Speaker 1: would I not stop and watch whatever scene and I
Speaker 1: know every word to every scene, and what about you?
Speaker 2: What are the movies that you would not stop?
Speaker 3: Mine would be Jaws and probably The Godfather.
Speaker 2: That you oh oh got.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is what I'm doing for the next hour.
Speaker 1: I thank you, yes, but I mean stay down with
Speaker 1: the music like everything. I mean, I and and the
Speaker 1: wind in that room with Demi Moore. I'm there right now,
Speaker 1: like I'm in the argument. You're so neurotic with the
Speaker 1: smoking in the ashtray and the apartment. Like there is
Speaker 1: not a sentilla of any of those movies that you've
Speaker 1: been in that I don't know. And I mean were
Speaker 1: you and you were in private school?
Speaker 2: No? No, who is in private school? James Spader?
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, there's not a moment class all of it.
Speaker 1: So anyway, I get it.
Speaker 2: I'm camp.
Speaker 1: You tell me the minute it's out, I'm there. I
Speaker 1: will be the I will be I laughed, I cried.
Speaker 1: It's better than cats. I'll be your like spokesperson. I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed you, and I appreciate the time, and I'm
Speaker 1: excited for you and your book and just all of it.
Speaker 1: Like I'm now a fan again. I'm a new fan.
Speaker 1: I'm a new old fan. Me too, awesome. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much, Andrew. Nice to meet you, and I wish
Speaker 1: you the best of everything.
Speaker 3: Bangs you doo, You're great awesome.
Speaker 5: Likewise, oh my god, I just interviewed Andrew McCarthy and
Speaker 5: like I didn't want to be weird, and I wasn't
Speaker 5: weird because he was so cool and.
Speaker 1: We're peers and peers with Andrew McCarthy. You don't understand.
Speaker 1: We are getting fucking Matt Dylon on this podcast, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to remain cool. Andrew McCarthy was like
Speaker 1: the guy that, like I could actually marry. Matt Dylan
Speaker 1: was like the hot sort of bad boy that I
Speaker 1: could maybe like date or sleep with. I don't think
Speaker 1: at that age I was even thinking that. But like,
Speaker 1: you don't understand. I just interviewed met Andrew McCarthy and
Speaker 1: we're like adults with kids, talking like peers. I lived
Speaker 1: for him. I wanted to crawl inside the movies and
Speaker 1: be there and move there.
Speaker 2: I used to cry about.
Speaker 1: It, like you don't under you do understand, Duran, Duran
Speaker 1: Matt Dylon, But Andrew McCarthy was my number one. Loved
Speaker 1: James Spader too, but like Andrew McCarthy had like the
Speaker 1: warm and fuzzy of it all, like the boyish charm.
Speaker 1: He's so interesting, so amazing, so smart, so textured, so deep,
Speaker 1: and like to talk about the brat Pack to what now,
Speaker 1: I know a member of the brat Pack? What the
Speaker 1: fuck are you talking about? The brat Pack was everything
Speaker 1: For those of you who are younger, you don't understand.
Speaker 1: It was like this group of young Hollywood idol icons
Speaker 1: had got into trouble and we're like bad boys and
Speaker 1: bad girls, but like came up together in this group
Speaker 1: and the movie Standing almost Fire crystallized it, and like
Speaker 1: I would watch it right now. I would stop this podcast.
Speaker 1: If we were on television, I would not be able
Speaker 1: to turn away.
Speaker 2: Obsessed. He was amazing by his book.
Speaker 1: He's a great writer, and I loved it and I'm
Speaker 1: so excited and he's one of those people that's really
Speaker 1: smart and like complex, So I think my publicist was
Speaker 1: even worried that, like, if you know, he might want
Speaker 1: to sort of get off after five minutes, because some
Speaker 1: people are just don't like, can't be bullshit interviews. So excited,
Speaker 1: loved it, loved, so happy,