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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Doctor Joy Harden Bradford, a

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Speaker 1: licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to

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Speaker 1: find a therapist in your area, visit our website at

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love

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Speaker 1: listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not

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Speaker 1: meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a

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Speaker 1: licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: joining me for session three hundred of the Therapy for

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Speaker 1: Black Girls Podcast. Yes, you are tuned into the three

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Speaker 1: hundredth episode, and before we kick off our conversation, I

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Speaker 1: just wanted to say a very sincere thank you to

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Speaker 1: each and every one of you who tune in every week.

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Speaker 1: The team and I are so grateful for your support.

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Speaker 1: It's not always easy to find resources that speak to

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Speaker 1: our unique experiences as black women, and we're honored to

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Speaker 1: serve as a trusted space for you to come in

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Speaker 1: and get the real talk about mental health and to

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Speaker 1: provide a space for you to feel seen, heard and supported.

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Speaker 1: Here's the three hundred amazing episodes and many more to come.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break and then we'll get into

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Speaker 1: the conversation. This week, I'm pleased to be joined by

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Speaker 1: today's distinguished guest, Ebony K. Williams. Ebany is an accomplished lawyer, author,

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Speaker 1: and pundit who brings her legal expertise to various platforms.

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Speaker 1: She's the host and executive producer of the dule ACP

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Speaker 1: Image Award nominated podcast Holding Court with Eboney K Williams,

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Speaker 1: and the author of bet on Black, The Good News

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Speaker 1: about being Black in America Today. Ebony joins me today

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Speaker 1: to discuss her roots as a trial attorney, her experiences

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Speaker 1: as a black woman in the legal field, and part

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Speaker 1: laying her law degree into the media industry and beyond.

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Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

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Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG

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Speaker 1: in session or join us in the sister circles. To

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Speaker 1: talk more in depth about the episode, you can join

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Speaker 1: us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's

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Speaker 1: our conversation. So excited to chat with you today, Ebany,

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Speaker 1: Thank you for a chatting with us today. Absolutely, longtime fan,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Joy. You used to come on Revolt Black News

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Speaker 1: a lot when I hosted, So this is lovely full circle. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: indeed always a pleasure to chat with you. So you

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Speaker 1: have worn so many hats throughout your life and year

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Speaker 1: or so in terms of being a lawyer. I'm a

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Speaker 1: podcast or a host, former member of the cast of

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Speaker 1: Real Housewives of New York. But I want you to

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Speaker 1: take us back to very young Ebony on the campus

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Speaker 1: of UNC Chapel Hill and talk to us about her

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Speaker 1: and what did she want to do in becoming a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: and how do you think that that has changed or

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Speaker 1: how has it stayed the same or some of those

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Speaker 1: same motivations there, Oh, young Ebony. She was so precocious,

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Speaker 1: so full of energy, so full of curiosity, always knew

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Speaker 1: she wanted to be a lawyer. As I write about

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Speaker 1: in my new book That on Black The Good News

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Speaker 1: about being Black in America Today, I think I was

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Speaker 1: a bit fortunate and that I always had a clear

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Speaker 1: sense of my what, and over time I realized my why.

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Speaker 1: So I knew I always wanted to be an attorney,

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Speaker 1: mainly because people were always telling my mother, Gloria, who

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Speaker 1: raised me as a single mom and the only child

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Speaker 1: that with that mouth, she's got to be a lawyer

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Speaker 1: or an actress. I was always raising my hand first,

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Speaker 1: asking a million questions. So it was clear from a

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Speaker 1: young age for me, doctor Joy, that something in the

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Speaker 1: advocacy space, being a voice for the voiceless, was going

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Speaker 1: to be my route in life. So I always do.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be an attorney. What I would say

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Speaker 1: has evolved over time is my why. I believe that

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Speaker 1: I started into the career path of being a lawyer

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Speaker 1: and an attorney because I wanted to be credible as

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Speaker 1: a black woman in America. I think that what we

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Speaker 1: do know is that there are tragic presumptions around blackness

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Speaker 1: in terms of our intellectual prowess, in terms of our

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Speaker 1: credibility as professionals, and frankly as our qualifications to be

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Speaker 1: in spaces right. And I think because my mother was

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Speaker 1: born and raised in the segregated Jim Crow South Southeast Louisiana,

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Speaker 1: which I know your family's from as well. Shout out

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Speaker 1: to a meet and Tangentho Parish, she had the good

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Speaker 1: sense to know that as a black girl speaking about

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Speaker 1: this black girl she was raising me named ebony Keanna

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Speaker 1: Williams growing up in the American South, that I would

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Speaker 1: have to contend with a lot of preconceptions and misnomers

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Speaker 1: about who I was as a black woman in America,

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Speaker 1: and so taking that and marrying it with what I

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Speaker 1: saw as spaces that were deemed highly credible and revered,

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Speaker 1: which were professions in medicine, law, engineering go unchallenged more

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Speaker 1: or less, more or less in terms of okay, if

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Speaker 1: you show up and you are of that professional caliber,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be some presumptions around work ethic, qualification

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Speaker 1: and ability. That was a lot of my why as

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Speaker 1: to why I wanted to be an attorney. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to take some of those questions off the table when

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Speaker 1: I entered the room as a black woman and a

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Speaker 1: young presenting black woman at that right I started practicing

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Speaker 1: at twenty three. I wanted those questions to be null

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Speaker 1: and void on arrival. So those were my original wives.

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Speaker 1: Where I have a vaultlved is now. Of course, my

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Speaker 1: why is deeply centered in the celebration and amplification of

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Speaker 1: black women. More broadly, it's less about proving who and

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Speaker 1: what we are to others and it's more about being

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Speaker 1: very clear and convincing, to use a legal term, clear

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Speaker 1: and convincing evidentiary standards of who we are to each

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Speaker 1: other and to ourselves. I love that, and I feel

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Speaker 1: like I want to come back to that because I

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Speaker 1: feel like there are some mental health implications that come

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Speaker 1: with that load of kind of having to do all

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Speaker 1: of these things right like and I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of us, like I have that same kind of story

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Speaker 1: of our parents feeling like we needed to do a

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Speaker 1: thing to be able to survive in this world in

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Speaker 1: the mental health tool that that really takes on us.

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Speaker 1: But I want to put a pin in that so

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Speaker 1: I can get a little bit more from your history

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Speaker 1: and kind of hear about your experience with the law.

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Speaker 1: So when you graduated from law school, what were you

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Speaker 1: planning to do with your law degree and what kinds

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Speaker 1: of things or words of wisdom would you want to

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Speaker 1: share about job opportunities for recent law graduates. Love this question.

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Speaker 1: So I graduated from Loyola University in New Orleans College

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Speaker 1: of Law. I had a very successful law school experience,

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Speaker 1: meaning graduated at the top of my class, came out

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Speaker 1: as Missmook Court. I was on our national MOO core team.

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Speaker 1: So I had a lot going for me. But I

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Speaker 1: have to pause, he a doctor Joey and tell you

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Speaker 1: the authenticity of my mother, Gloria, who I just spoke about.

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Speaker 1: Even with all of that accolade, and I passed the

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Speaker 1: bar on my first attempt, which was a blessing. Again

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Speaker 1: at twenty three years old, I wanted to be the

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Speaker 1: next Johnny Cochrane. I knew I wanted to be a

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Speaker 1: trial attorney of high success. But as a lot of

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Speaker 1: law students will tell you, the jobs, the big six

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Speaker 1: ish figure jobs are few and far between, particularly when

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Speaker 1: you start talking about being a black person in the law.

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Speaker 1: And so those are the goals that many of us

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Speaker 1: are force fed in law school. You know, those on

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Speaker 1: campus interviews where the top ten to fifteen percent are

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Speaker 1: invited to interview with the Sidney Austin's, which is the

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Speaker 1: law from the Obama's practiced at and met at actually

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Speaker 1: Jones Day, all of these big firms. So when I

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Speaker 1: came out of law school, joy, Although I had all

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Speaker 1: these credentials and accolades, what I didn't have because I

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Speaker 1: graduated in two thousand and seven from law school, which

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Speaker 1: was right around the bubble burst, and also right after

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Speaker 1: Hurricane Katrina, there was no job. So Gloria said, yeah, clapclop, congratulations.

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Speaker 1: I ran into I was staying with her that summer.

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Speaker 1: I ran into the house. I'm so excited, like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, Mom, I passed the bar. It's so amazing.

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Speaker 1: She said, yeah, yeah, yeah, clap clap, You've got exactly

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Speaker 1: two weeks to have an offer from a law fer

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Speaker 1: or you're actually going to be taking your butt up

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Speaker 1: to the They had just built a brand new PF

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Speaker 1: Chains right down the street from the house. She said, yo,

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Speaker 1: ass is gonna be serving letters wraps. And she was

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Speaker 1: not playing at all. If you know this woman, you

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Speaker 1: know how serious this she was. I knew she was serious. Joy.

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Speaker 1: So what I did was, although I didn't have an offer,

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Speaker 1: I did as Madam CJ. Walker tells us to do,

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Speaker 1: which is go curate your own opportunity. Don't wait for

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Speaker 1: someone to give you one. Curate it yourself. So I

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Speaker 1: put on my black little power suit, which is again

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Speaker 1: at the time what all women were instructed to put on,

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Speaker 1: my ill colored stockings and my heels, and I pounded

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Speaker 1: the pavement and I knocked on every law firm door

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Speaker 1: in Charlotte, North Carolina, which is where I was licensed

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Speaker 1: to practice, and I made up interview times. I would

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Speaker 1: literally walk in and say, oh, I'm here to speak

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Speaker 1: to the hiring manager. Oh, he's not aware of your appointment.

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Speaker 1: I said, Oh, that's so weird, but don't worry about it.

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Speaker 1: Here's my cover letter and resume. Just have him call me.

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Speaker 1: And that worked exactly one time. Everybody else either ignored

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Speaker 1: me or lacked me out of the office, but one firm,

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Speaker 1: James McIlroy and Deal, which is a very prestigious family

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Speaker 1: in civil litigation firms Charlotte. I actually got a call

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Speaker 1: from the hiring partner and he said, miss Williams, I'm

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Speaker 1: so sorry about the confusion, but why don't you come

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Speaker 1: in on Wednesday? And the rest is history. Wow. So

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Speaker 1: what's something like that work these days? Like what kinds

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Speaker 1: of suggestions would you give to recent law school graduates?

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Speaker 1: I advise it, doctor Joy does I'll tell you why

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Speaker 1: I advise it. Does it work in the way that

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Speaker 1: it works for me? I can't tell you yes or no.

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Speaker 1: What I can tell you was come the Christmas party

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Speaker 1: of that same firm that I was then an associate

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Speaker 1: with Jonathan admitted to me that he knew the whole

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Speaker 1: thing was a sham, and he respected the huts buck.

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Speaker 1: He said. Any young litigator that has essentially pardon my French,

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Speaker 1: but the balls, if you will, or the ovaries, or

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Speaker 1: the confidence and the courage to come into a firm

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Speaker 1: of this caliber and position themselves as such, was worth meeting.

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Speaker 1: So I do advise young graduates coming out of law,

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Speaker 1: especially young black law school graduates, to show up and

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Speaker 1: take up a lot of space. Think outside the box.

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Speaker 1: Be unconvincid, because here's the thing, Joy, It's the same

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Speaker 1: thing as a lot of journalists that work in the space.

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Speaker 1: And we all go to NABJ and we come out,

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Speaker 1: we all have our same little multicolored Callum news box dresses,

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Speaker 1: our colored chef dresses, and our Barbie hare. The more

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Speaker 1: you can distinguish yourself from your peers, because many of

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Speaker 1: us will walk out with the same resumes and the

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Speaker 1: same law review and move court credentials and this that

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Speaker 1: in the third and it's all lovely. And even once

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Speaker 1: you have that bar exam number in your hand and

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Speaker 1: you have your license to practice, you are still a

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Speaker 1: part of a relatively large collective. So I really recommend

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Speaker 1: students thinking outside of the box and how they can

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Speaker 1: position themselves as uniquely as possible. So, yes, Joy, I

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Speaker 1: believe in the cold call. I wonder if there are

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Speaker 1: some ways that people can use their legal degree in

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Speaker 1: non traditional I mean, in a lot of ways. You're

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Speaker 1: already doing that, But I do think there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of grooming and socialization around, like getting a job at

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Speaker 1: big law firms that happens in law. What kinds of

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Speaker 1: things can people be doing to maybe think outside of

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Speaker 1: the box, even fresh out of law school, indeed, fresh

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Speaker 1: out of law school again, this narrative has held true.

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Speaker 1: I can out of law school now, goodness, almost fifteen

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Speaker 1: sixteen years ago, and what I'm hearing from students, doctor

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Speaker 1: Joy is that it's still very much the same. The

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Speaker 1: narrative is, make the good grades, get on the law review,

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Speaker 1: moot court, fill in the blank, law clinic, whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: get the resume, pass the bar, and go to big

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Speaker 1: law if you're fortunate enough to do so. Now, when

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Speaker 1: you talk to many big law associates and even some partners,

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Speaker 1: they tend to be less than happy. And I'll leave

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Speaker 1: that there. Not all of them I do know some

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Speaker 1: people that are thriving, but they are few and far between.

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Speaker 1: So I think that it's important for young people or

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Speaker 1: people period, because I do think it's important to make

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Speaker 1: space for black students who go to law school in

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Speaker 1: quote non traditional times in life, you know, who have

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Speaker 1: had a whole other career. In fact, I think this

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Speaker 1: is really advisable to have a career in another space finance, business, education,

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Speaker 1: you name it, medicine, even and then pivot at one

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Speaker 1: point in time to pursue a legal career. And I

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Speaker 1: think that is really advantageous to those people that come

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Speaker 1: to the table with another perspective. So whenever you find

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Speaker 1: yourself coming out of law school, I think you should

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Speaker 1: really open yourself up to non traditional pathways. Like you're saying, Joy,

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Speaker 1: think about working at public defenders offices. When I left

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Speaker 1: big law, and I left the big six figure job

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Speaker 1: a year, a little less than a year into the game,

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Speaker 1: I went to be a public defender, which for me

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Speaker 1: is where I really cut my teeth, and I say,

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Speaker 1: I really learned how to practice law. Think about going

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Speaker 1: to prosecutor offices. I really want to say that very loudly,

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Speaker 1: doctor Joy. I was talking to a colleague of mine

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Speaker 1: in the space of law and media, and that is

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Speaker 1: my sore BERNARDA Villelona, And she was a prosecutor in

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia at the start of her career, and she got

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Speaker 1: a lot of slat from the culture because the culture

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Speaker 1: understandably has a lot of skepticism when it comes to

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Speaker 1: black folks in prosecutorial spaces. But we will tell you

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Speaker 1: there is no one more powerful in a courtroom other

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Speaker 1: than a prosecutor and a judge, So we need to

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Speaker 1: see more black faces occupying those spaces. Outside of that,

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Speaker 1: you know, there are people that go straight into what

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Speaker 1: an in house position looks like. Now we think of

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Speaker 1: that as general counsel. That can be like a high

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Speaker 1: up position that normally people graduate too. But you'd be

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Speaker 1: surprised as to how many startups and small businesses could

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Speaker 1: use legal counsel of a more transactional sort. My lawyer

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Speaker 1: because I'm no longer practicing law and now I work

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Speaker 1: as a businesswoman who is a content creator and producer.

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Speaker 1: So my lawyer's on speetile. My lawyer is an IP lawyer.

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Speaker 1: She's an intellectual property lawyer, and she is a business

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Speaker 1: attorney in entertainment. She's fundamental to the game and she

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Speaker 1: used to be by mentee when she was in law school.

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Speaker 1: So I think the space is wide open, doctor Joy.

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Speaker 1: I think a law degree, a jd. Is the fundamental,

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Speaker 1: most flexible postgraduate degree one could have because you can

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Speaker 1: really take up space in traditional practice of law, in

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Speaker 1: business and just in executive leadership, beyond just the practice

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Speaker 1: of law. So you've used a lot of terms that

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Speaker 1: I want to make sure we define for our community

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Speaker 1: who are non lawyers. So you have had experience as

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Speaker 1: a public defender, You've worked in civil litigation, you've been

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Speaker 1: in private practice. Can you define some of those terms

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Speaker 1: for us? So what does it mean to be a

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Speaker 1: public defender? Sure? So a public defender is a lawyer

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Speaker 1: who works in the criminal space. So we're doing criminal law,

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Speaker 1: and how I talked about the prosecutor. The prosecutor is

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Speaker 1: the individual that brings the charges against someone accused of

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Speaker 1: a crime. That public defender is there to make sure

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Speaker 1: that prosecutor does their job, Doctor Joy. We are there

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Speaker 1: to defend the civil and human and constitutional rights of

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Speaker 1: all defendants that appear in court. And we are public

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Speaker 1: defenders because we represent the indigen indigen is a term

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Speaker 1: that essentially means the poor, they impoverished, those that cannot

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Speaker 1: afford to pay for their own legal defense. It's in

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Speaker 1: our constitution that everybody gets a legal defense, enter public defenders,

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Speaker 1: and we can sometimes also get a bad rap in

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Speaker 1: broader society. I assure you that I and so many

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Speaker 1: other public defenders, y'all are incredible attorneys. We are brilliant,

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Speaker 1: bright legal minds, and we really take our work very seriously.

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Speaker 1: That's a public defender. Civil litigation. Civil litigation is when

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Speaker 1: it's not about going to jail, it's about paying the money.

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Speaker 1: So civil law is about not the criminal aspect, where

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Speaker 1: you do go to jail if you're found quote guilty

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Speaker 1: or in the wrong. In civil law, if you're found

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Speaker 1: quote in the wrong, you are deemed to be liable

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Speaker 1: and responsible for money damages. A great example of this

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Speaker 1: is OJ Simpson right. OJ was tried in criminal court.

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Speaker 1: He was found not guilty in the criminal court. The

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Speaker 1: families of Nicole and Ron brought civil litigation charges. OJ

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Speaker 1: was found liable in the civil court of law. Thus

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Speaker 1: he had to pay the family millions of dollars in

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Speaker 1: money damages. Gonnie, thank you for defining that for so,

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Speaker 1: I am sure like doctors when they watch shows like

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Speaker 1: Er and those kinds of things. I know that there

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Speaker 1: are tons of law shows that I'm sure you have

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Speaker 1: seen or maybe heard about, and I'd love for you

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Speaker 1: to talk to us a little bit about what some

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Speaker 1: of those shows get wrong, Like what are some of

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Speaker 1: the kind of common misconceptions you see come up, and

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Speaker 1: how is that different from the reality of what actually

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Speaker 1: happens in courtrooms. Yeah, doctor Joe, I actually love watching

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Speaker 1: law movies and law television shows. Some of my favorite

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Speaker 1: movies Philadelphia around Tom Hanks's homosexual and AIDS patient suing

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Speaker 1: his law firm. I love Law and Order. I love

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Speaker 1: all the legal shows and movies. But yes, to your point,

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Speaker 1: they get a lot wrong. I would say one of

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Speaker 1: the main things they all get wrong is the time

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Speaker 1: in which you see it happening, meaning to think that

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Speaker 1: any case, mostly criminal or civil, you can have opening statements,

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Speaker 1: direct exam, cross exam, jury, verdict, a pill, everything happened

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Speaker 1: with this sixty minutes or two hours? Child, Please, It's

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Speaker 1: never one of the reason that most lawyers will tell

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Speaker 1: you that they probably love the law but could get

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Speaker 1: frustrated with the law is the bureaucracy of the law,

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Speaker 1: whether it's criminal work or transactional work or civil litigation work.

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Speaker 1: Everything takes so long, girl, so many continuances, so many hearings,

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Speaker 1: so many preluminary hearings, so many just different aspects that

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Speaker 1: just take up so much time and energy that by

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Speaker 1: the time we finally get to court, a lot of

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Speaker 1: times we're exhausted mentally and emotionally. Somm So, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that I love about your podcast Holding Court

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Speaker 1: with Ebne Kaid Williams is that you will introduce us

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Speaker 1: to a lot of hot topics in the law and

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Speaker 1: like really calling our attention to things that we should

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Speaker 1: be paying attention to. So, for our sisters who are

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Speaker 1: in law, what are some cases that they should be

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Speaker 1: paying attention to right now? Yes, thank you, doctor Joy

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Speaker 1: for shutting out the podcast Holding Court, which I do

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Speaker 1: weekly with my brilliant and so talented co host Dustin Ross.

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Speaker 1: So we recorded this morning actually, so we talked about

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are curious about what's happening with

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Speaker 1: this Tiger Wood situation and the fact that his ex girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: not ex wife, but ex girlfriend that he did live

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Speaker 1: with for six years is bringing suit to do both

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Speaker 1: throw out the NDA that she was required to sign

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Speaker 1: as a part of their relationship, and she's also sewing

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Speaker 1: for thirty million dollars in expenses that she claimed she's

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Speaker 1: entitled to because of their cohabitation tendency agreement. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of legal stuff there, but ultimately I really want

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Speaker 1: women and black women to pay attention to this in

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Speaker 1: the law because these are really issues that we need

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Speaker 1: to be getting in front of as women in relationships. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: establishing what living situation outcomes look like before breakups, this

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Speaker 1: is where a prenup is important. If you're married, and

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Speaker 1: even if you're not married, Please be clear, there are

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Speaker 1: certain tangible, written agreements that can be put into place

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Speaker 1: that says this is what we're agreeing to as cohabitants.

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Speaker 1: If there is a break in the cohabitation, this is

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Speaker 1: what you get, this is what I get. That can

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Speaker 1: include the wealthier party paying living expenses in a hotel

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Speaker 1: or other hollosing airbnb situation until that other partner finds

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Speaker 1: a more permanent housing. The point is there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of options on the table. You want to make sure

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Speaker 1: that you're putting yourself in position to have those options

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Speaker 1: enforced if said breakup occurs, and that's married or unmarried.

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Speaker 1: So that's one of the cases. Yeah, another case that

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Speaker 1: we covered. I think this is so important, Doctor Joey.

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Speaker 1: You talked about this a lot on your show, this

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Speaker 1: notion of black wealth building closing wealth gaps. The cultures

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Speaker 1: vary into this topic, but one of the ways in

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Speaker 1: which this shows up is in housing, right. And so

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Speaker 1: there was a black couple in California that recently brought

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Speaker 1: suit against an appraisal company for underbidding them literally and

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Speaker 1: when they had their house a praise with their family

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Speaker 1: photos of their beautiful black kids and family and their

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Speaker 1: black art, they got a number that was like nine

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand and something like that. Right when they had

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Speaker 1: their white friends allowed them to use their white family

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Speaker 1: photos and give a tour as a white family to

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Speaker 1: the appraiser. All of a sudden, the house is worth

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Speaker 1: one point five million. So they sued, and it's an

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Speaker 1: amount that was not disclosed, which, as a lawyer tells me,

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Speaker 1: it probably was a good number, a good number for

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Speaker 1: the family. But I want the culture and black women

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Speaker 1: in law to pay attention to that, doctor Joy, because

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Speaker 1: that can serve as a model of how holding folks

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Speaker 1: in real estate and commercial and residential property accountable for

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Speaker 1: what happens when you undervalue blackness. And let's be clear,

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Speaker 1: we have to name that that is what that practice is.

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Speaker 1: Whether it's redlining, whether it's low balling appraisals for black

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Speaker 1: homeowners and property owners, that is a form of anti blackness,

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Speaker 1: and we have to call it out, whether it's in

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Speaker 1: the law or in the culture, and in this case

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Speaker 1: both more from my conversation with Ebony after the break.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned and you're talking about it now like

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Speaker 1: you've moved from practicing laws to using all of your

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Speaker 1: legal expertise as a podcast hosts in lots of different

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Speaker 1: ways in the different varieties in the media. So can

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Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about how your experience as

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Speaker 1: a trial lawyer really helps you to do the TV

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Speaker 1: work that you do. Simply put, doctor Joy, I could

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Speaker 1: not do what I do in television, on podcasting or

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Speaker 1: even as an author without my years of experience. As

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Speaker 1: for me a trial lawyer, my ability to do what

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Speaker 1: I do on Holding Court, at my ability to do

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Speaker 1: what I do on The Grio with Ebany K. Williams,

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Speaker 1: which airs on the Grio every night at sixth Eastern,

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Speaker 1: and of course what you read a lot of in

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Speaker 1: bet On Black, the Good News about being Black in America,

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Speaker 1: and even in my first book, Pretty Powerful. My lens

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Speaker 1: is that of a black woman attorney. And that lens

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Speaker 1: whether I'm in a courtroom at a bail hearing, or

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Speaker 1: whether or not I'm sitting in front of a podcast

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Speaker 1: Mike Keiki and with Dustin Ross, that lens is the

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Speaker 1: same lens the issues. You know, we have this term

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Speaker 1: in law school and practicing laws called issue spotting. My

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Speaker 1: ability to produce Holding Court, which I executive produced, right,

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Speaker 1: is reliant upon my ability to look at a news

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Speaker 1: cycle on any given day and say, these are the

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Speaker 1: issues we need to look at. I'll give you an example,

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Speaker 1: Doctor George. The Mike Epps headline. So everybody's talking about

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Speaker 1: the fact that Mike Epps was I don't have to

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Speaker 1: say allegedly, because he has admitted to his possession of

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00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,640
Speaker 1: as he calls it, a pistol in his Instagram apology

432
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 1: where he says he forgot he had a pistol in

433
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 1: his backpack when he was at the Indiana airport. And

434
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 1: everybody's talking about that is the headline. That's not where

435
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 1: my mind went. The headline is the headline. But the

436
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 1: issue that I was compelled to discuss on my show

437
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: is the apology. Is the fact that when you, Mike

438
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,640
Speaker 1: Epps or Joe Schmo or Jane Doe or Sister Joe,

439
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 1: when you get on social media and you, either by

440
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 1: video or by tweet or text, apologize for behavior in

441
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 1: a public forum, you are tacitly admitting the action. And

442
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: while from a pr standpoint or narrative standpoint, Doctor Joy,

443
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,959
Speaker 1: that might be advantageous to some level, from a legal standpoint,

444
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: you have now tied my hands. You have now limited

445
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 1: my opportunities to build defense for you, if defense is needed.

446
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: So that's just an example of my issues finding ability

447
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 1: that come from me being a trial attorney. I'm not

448
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 1: worried about whether you did or didn't have the gun.

449
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: I'm not worried about whether or not you should have

450
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 1: checked the bag. That's fine. Those issues are there. But

451
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 1: the narrowly tailored issue that I want to bring people's

452
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 1: awareness to that they otherwise would not necessarily be paying

453
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: attention to is the legal consequence of that apology. So

454
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 1: what advice would you give to other sisters in law

455
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: school who maybe want to do similar things like you're doing,

456
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: be a pundent on news and those kinds of things.

457
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 1: What advice would you give them? I would say, And

458
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: I get this often, doctor Joyce, so thank you for

459
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 1: bringing it up. I think it's very important to come

460
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: to the table if you want to be a media personality,

461
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: a trusted figure in legal spaces, but you want to

462
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 1: do it in a broad television, multimedia, podcasts, radio way.

463
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,479
Speaker 1: The main thing is your credibility right in the fields

464
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: that we have chosen to pursue, aspects of medicine, aspects

465
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: of psychology, aspects of law, you name it. You are

466
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: as good as your professional reputation for accuracy. So the

467
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: main thing I would tell a young woman, a young

468
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 1: black woman especially that wants to be in this space

469
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: is as much as I am the biggest cheerleader for

470
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: black women in all spaces, I cannot advocate for black

471
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: women to be in this space and not tell them

472
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: the difficult truth, which is that they will be held

473
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 1: to a higher standard of credibility. The reality is is

474
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: when you have the audacity, doctor joy as we have

475
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 1: demonstrated them in our career choices to say that we're

476
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: going to take up space and we're gonna center ourselves

477
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: in these historically white professions. And we're not just going

478
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 1: to do so in private practice, although we've done that,

479
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 1: we're now going to have the audacity to do so

480
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 1: in the public forum of syndicated radio, internationally distributed podcasting,

481
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: nationally syndicated cable news. What have you? Right, you are

482
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: literally begging for an enormous microscope of scrutiny and criticism

483
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: to come your way. And I have to be very

484
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: honest with our sisters about that, doctor Joy. And at

485
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: the same time, look at what I did on the

486
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: View a few weeks ago with to Santist, a massive

487
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: invitation of scrutiny to who I am. But I'm able

488
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: to do so at this point in my career. Let

489
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: me be clear, At this point in my career, I

490
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: get to do shit like that because I have earned

491
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: the reputation for truth telling. And so that's what I

492
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: would tell our sisters is trust a process. I write

493
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 1: a whole chapter in my new book that I'm black

494
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: around process. You can't expect to necessarily come out of

495
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: the gates like, Okay, I just graduated from law school.

496
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,719
Speaker 1: I just passed the bar, and now I'm gonna sit

497
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: at the view and tell off you know, de Santis

498
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: and Trump and maybe Biden too. Right, there's a process,

499
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: there's an earning of stripes. It doesn't mean you can't

500
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 1: do it in a relatively quick timetable, but it means

501
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: that your reputation for getting it right knowing what you're

502
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: talking about from a legal perspective and a journalistic lens.

503
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: And that is what you do when you decide that

504
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: you want to do what I'm doing, what Sonny Houston

505
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: is doing, what Star Jones in many ways originate, which

506
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 1: was be a black woman who marries her law experience,

507
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 1: background and degree with that of being a national or

508
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: international public figure. Baby, you better be ready. That means

509
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: you got to be damn good at both the law

510
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 1: and the journalism of it, and you have to have

511
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 1: the skin to tolerate the scrutiny that comes with that choice.

512
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: So let's stay with the book for a little while.

513
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: So in addition to that chapter, you also have a

514
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: chapter in the book called no Need to Code Switch.

515
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: When you talk about like some of the microaggressions and

516
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 1: some of the things you share and made us think

517
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 1: about the situation on Insecure with Molly when they tried

518
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: to tell her like she was too loud in the office,

519
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 1: and like a lot of the attempts to change her.

520
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about some of the

521
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 1: microaggressions you experienced as a practicing lawyer in any advice

522
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 1: you share for other people to how to navigate that. Indeed,

523
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: Doctor George, So unfortunately we know that when you are

524
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: a lawyer, whether it's an a firm, prosecutor's office, legal

525
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: aid of counsel at a corp oration, historically, when people

526
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: think lawyer, they still think old white man. So we

527
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: got to start from that premise, right, So that is

528
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: the expectation of space. So already, when you are a

529
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: black woman in any of the aforementioned spaces of law,

530
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: you are innately disruptive. So let's just sit with that.

531
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: Just your mere presence, your mere doing your job every

532
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 1: day and showing up to work is already making some

533
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 1: folks uncomfortable before you've opened your mouth. So I want

534
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: to sit with that, and I would encourage young black

535
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 1: women or black women period in the law to sit

536
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: with that, because that really relieves a lot of pressure

537
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: around what you do or say, because if you think

538
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: about it before you open your mouth, you have already

539
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: disrupted general concepts and ideals around who gets to be

540
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: a lawyer in America. So it's less about what was

541
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: I too loud to ask too many questions that I

542
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 1: not know enough. Let's not gaslight ourselves because that's what

543
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: that is. Right. Let's not do the work of the

544
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: oppressor for him or her or them. So let's not

545
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: gaslight ourselves about the what we did, and just remember

546
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: that our mere presence is disruptive in its entirety. Then

547
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: traditional notions of accommodating white comfort. And by the way,

548
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: when I talk about white comfort, it ain't just white people,

549
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: the whole expectations of white comfort, doctor Joy. Unfortunately, as

550
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: we saw in the Molly example, some of her own

551
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: black colleagues when she did go to the Black Law

552
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: Farm even were still bothered because they were so conditioned

553
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: to expectations of whiteness. So a lot of this work

554
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: that I talk about in the book is around divorcing

555
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: ourselves as black women in law from white comfort and

556
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: divorcing ourselves as black women in law and life. Mind you,

557
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: everything I'm saying about the law, doctor Joy applies to life.

558
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: These are life acts, right, But it's also divorcing ourselves

559
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: from the need, the requirement from collective black buying, And

560
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: that one's a little harder to sit with, I think

561
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: for most of us, because who among us doesn't want

562
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: to feel celebrated by the culture. Who doesn't want to

563
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: feel like we are doing good work on behalf of

564
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: our people and our culture. And we do. But if

565
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: you are waiting for one hundred percent agreement from folks

566
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: that look like you about the way in which you

567
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: choose to show up at work, in life and your

568
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: family and your relationship in your financial choices, you will

569
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: be waiting for a very long time. So I encourage

570
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: black women Joy to really divorce themselves from those requirements

571
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: and start focusing on the authenticness of how they want

572
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: to center blackness in their occupancy of space as black

573
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: women attorneys, as black judges, as black businesswomen. So let's

574
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: stay with the authenticity for a little bit, because we

575
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: do know, in addition to what you talked about, like,

576
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: there is all this additional scrutiny around styling choices, especially

577
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: for black women, in terms of how we style our

578
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: hair and what colors are we wearing, and you know

579
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: all of that stuff. So what does it even mean

580
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: to show up authentically, especially in the spaces that you've occupied.

581
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: This is where being liberated, doctor Joey is really important.

582
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: What does it mean to show up authentically? It means

583
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: exactly what you individual black woman says it does. It's

584
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: nothing more or less than that. So I'll give you

585
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: an example. I talk about this in great detail in

586
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: my first book, Pretty Powerful, Appearance, Substance and Success, where

587
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: the whole book is premised on the notion of what

588
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: we look like as women in the world matters and

589
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: deeply correlates with our professional ascension. Now, while that is

590
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: a tragic reality, I think it's trash. That's the case

591
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: right as Marsha Clark says in the book where I interview,

592
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: we should be able to show up and try a

593
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: case in a burlap sack if we wanted to. But

594
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: that is not the condition of the world we live in,

595
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: and up and until it changes, we are where we are.

596
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: So there would have been a time in my life,

597
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 1: doctor Joey, where I would not have even done this

598
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: interview with you wearing the hoodie I'm wearing right now.

599
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: Let me tell you the narrative that I was tethered

600
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: to at that time. This makes black women look bad

601
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: right to just be seen in something that wasn't demonstrative

602
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: of modeling, respectability politics, That wasn't the classic black navy

603
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: or gray blazer suit, that wasn't the crisp white collar shirt.

604
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: I'm intentionally not wearing lipstick today. And a lot of

605
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: why I made the aesthetic choices that I've made for

606
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: our particular conversation, Doctor Joy, is because I really want

607
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: this conversation to be accessible. And a lot of times

608
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: when we as women, especially as Black women, especially as

609
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: kind of classically or commercially described attractive black women, show

610
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: up with all of the lashes and all of the

611
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: beat and all of the extra which I love the

612
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: extra child, but sometimes it can serve as a barrier

613
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: for people really resonating and connecting with the content, and

614
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: that was something I didn't think that we could afford

615
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: to do in this conversation. So this is a very

616
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: kind of stripped down version of my on camera aesthetic.

617
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: So that's the thinking there. As for the sweatshirt, it's

618
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: a sweatshirt with a very pronounced message that talks about

619
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: generational curse breakers, and that's very important to what I'm

620
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: doing in this work at this point in time, and

621
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: I think it's very Germane to the conversation we're having.

622
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: So there was thought here that is intention with what

623
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: we say historically women and professional women and lawyers should

624
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: look like if they want to be taken seriously. And

625
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: yet I am challenging those around me by the choices

626
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: I'm making in this particular aesthetic, and so that's the liberation.

627
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: So this is my authenticity in this moment, and check

628
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: me an hour later and it might look totally different.

629
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: So really about bringing who you would like to bring

630
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,479
Speaker 1: to any particular space and having that be defined by

631
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: yourself and be defined by yourself there in life deliberation,

632
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: doctor Joy. Yeah, Yeah, more from my conversation with Ebony

633
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: after the break. So this fall, you're adding yet another

634
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: title to your long list. So you'll be the youngest

635
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 1: judge on syndicated daytime television with Equal Justice with Judge

636
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: Ebony k Williams. So tell me what interested you in

637
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: having a daytime court TV show and how it's going

638
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: to be different than any other show we've seen. It's

639
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: just fun. Like who in the world would not love

640
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: the opportunity to sit above that bench and hold that

641
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: gavel and partificate on the crazy that goes on in

642
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: daytime court. So that's one of my wise. I do

643
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: a lot of work. It's extremely intense and it's extremely rewarding,

644
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: but at some point you gotta have a little fun.

645
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: So that's a part of my wife or wanting to

646
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: do equal justice with Judge Ebony Kay Williams. The other thing.

647
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: A lot of my work early in my career Doctor Joy,

648
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: my work on box news and cable news generally CNN, HLN,

649
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: NFL network. It was tethered to only the work, and

650
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: I was not able to bring my personality to the

651
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: work because that's the mandate of doing the news right.

652
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: The news does not necessarily care that. That's for talk

653
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: right to talk shows the view, which is why I

654
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: love doing it. The breakfast Club, right, those are spaces

655
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: that are around your personality and our personality driven platforms.

656
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: But when you're talking about the things that I really

657
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,919
Speaker 1: built the foundation of my career doing, people didn't even

658
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 1: know who I was as a personality until for a

659
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: lot of people Housewives or Breakfast Club. So that's really

660
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: been only the last five or six years, and I've

661
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: been doing just the broadcast stuff Doctor Joy for about

662
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: twelve years. So part of wanting to do You the

663
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 1: Judge Show, Equal Justice with Judge ny K Williams is finally,

664
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: this is the culmination of my ability to be exactly

665
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: who people here on holding court, A brilliant legal scholar

666
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: who has an innate, almost uncanny sensibility when it comes

667
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: to the law, know the law like the back of

668
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: my hand, and like my first, middle and last name,

669
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 1: I really do. I love the law, let it be known,

670
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: and all of the shenanigans of who I am as

671
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: a woman and as a personality. So those are the

672
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: things how it's going to be different exactly what I

673
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: just ended with. The reality is nobody can be you

674
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: like you can be you. So this is not going

675
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 1: to be an impersonation of Judge Judy or Judge Matthis

676
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: a Judge Joe Brown, a Judge Maybeleen, and God bless

677
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: all of those titans of industry, because that's exactly what

678
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: they are, but respectively to them, now is the time

679
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: for something else in addition to right Judge Mathis is

680
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 1: now my network partner with Alan Media Group and Entertainment Studios,

681
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 1: which is incredible honor. Right, and yet the culture I

682
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 1: believe deserves a fresh take, a new iteration of what

683
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: daytime court is for this moment culturally, and so I'm

684
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: very excited to bring that. I'll give you a good example.

685
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of critique, I believe, rightfully, so

686
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: I was one of the first voices of searing critique

687
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: of what Chris Rock is currently doing in comedy, and

688
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: some are jumping to his defense to say, well, he's

689
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: from an era where those types of jokes doctor joy

690
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: that come at the obvious expense of black safety and

691
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: black liberation, those kind of jokes were permitted were being operative.

692
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: I think that's how I feel about daytime Court. To

693
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: be candid, I think that there have been historic levels

694
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: of anti blackness that have shown up in courtrooms with

695
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: judges who were black, white, and other and it was

696
00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: permitted at that time. Culturally. Thank God, when we know better,

697
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: we do better, Thank God, and thank God because we

698
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: already more culturally elevated and culturally conscious point in time

699
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: in our existence, we get to do daytime court in

700
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 1: a way that is funny, entertaining, compelling, interesting, engaging, and

701
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 1: yet still revers the treasure that is blackness. But you

702
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: will never see in my courtroom that unfortunately we have

703
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 1: seen in other people's is me taking slights, making digs

704
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: or trying to be cute at the expense of blackness.

705
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: It'll never happen. So I'm curious, Emmany, how are you

706
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 1: staying connected to like learning? So you clearly have to

707
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: stay on top of what's happening legally. You talked about

708
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 1: yourself as a legal scholar. How are you staying on

709
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: top of that even though you're not practicing? I read,

710
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: doctor Joy. I read. It's really important for me to

711
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 1: communicate how important reading is. And when I say reading,

712
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: doctor Joy, we live in the technology age. We live

713
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 1: in the information age. That could be audiobooks, that can

714
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 1: be listening to articles. I subscribe to a lot of news.

715
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: That's what I do. So I subscribe to The New

716
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: York Times, Washington Post, The Atlantic, the Athletic PBS. People

717
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: want to know, like Dan, why are you so swaggy?

718
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: Why are you walk in the room and just take

719
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,399
Speaker 1: up so much space? There's so much bravado because actor jority.

720
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 1: Reality is I don't care how it sounds. When I

721
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: walk into ninety nine point nine percent of rooms I

722
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: walk into, yes, including the ones here in Midtown Manhattan,

723
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 1: I already know I'm walking in knowing more, looking better,

724
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: and just harder working than most people in the space.

725
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: It's a reality. It's the reality, and I work damn

726
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: hard to make sure that remains the reality. So I

727
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: read a lot. I consume a lot of documentaries and

728
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: multimedia content. I listened to your podcast, and it's not

729
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: just all the law, it's not just all news and politics.

730
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: I listened to a lot of relationship podcast. I listened

731
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: to Paulsey Brunson, I listened to my friend now Demona Hoffman.

732
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: Like I just indulge in consume from the brilliant minds

733
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 1: like yours and our peers that I have availability and

734
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: access to. So that's really how I stay on the

735
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: top of my game. MM. So that's something for everybody

736
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,479
Speaker 1: to answer the list. It's reading more and that really

737
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: helps you in lots of different spaces. You see behind me,

738
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: doctor Joy in this bookshelf a lot of these works,

739
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: and I talk about this in bed on Black, Don't

740
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: Be Afraid to revisit something because who I am today

741
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: at almost thirty nine years old, almost forty, when I

742
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: read the Soul of Black Folk today, believe me, it

743
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,439
Speaker 1: hits different than when I read the Soul of Black

744
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: Folk at fifteen, When I read the Narrative of Frederick

745
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 1: Douglas today, that is a totally different lens of experience

746
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: in which I'm consuming that at age eight, or even

747
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: age twenty two, or even age thirty two. So I

748
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: encourage our people especially to read, because y'all, there's a

749
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: reason I go into all this detail in the book.

750
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 1: As you know, doctor Joy, there is a reason it

751
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 1: used to be punishable by death for Black Americans to

752
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 1: read on this land, because in the pages of the

753
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: books are the liberation points. When you know who and

754
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 1: whose you are, which you're best learning back to me

755
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: through information, it's hard to oppress and subsidize and make

756
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: you subsidiary. You just kind of innately show up in

757
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: a different posture when you know exactly your authentic story.

758
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,439
Speaker 1: So I want to go back to that mental health

759
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: conversation that we talked about earlier, and just you know,

760
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 1: it sounds like again, your story is very much like

761
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: a lot of young black women in that. You know,

762
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 1: we've been conditioned in this like work twice as hard

763
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: to get half as much, and there definitely is a

764
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: tool on your mental health, I think because of that,

765
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 1: So can you talk a little bit about how you

766
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: have taken care of your mental health as a practicing

767
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 1: lawyer and even now I take my mental health very

768
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: very seriously, doctor Joy. Let me start with that, which

769
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: is why again I am set beyond your peer in colleague.

770
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: I'm a fan first and foremost because we've got to

771
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: not normalize, doctor Joy, having these mental health conversations. But

772
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 1: I think, like, go beyond that. Normalizing is not enough

773
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: in the society we live in. To me, we've got

774
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 1: to just like you know, we celebrate drip and everybody

775
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: wants the Louis this and the Rolex that which listen.

776
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: I'm here for all of the drip, but if you

777
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: aren't in therapy, I'm probably looking at you sideways personally,

778
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: you know, because that is an investment, unlike anything else,

779
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: it is an appreciable asset. My ability to do what

780
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 1: I do at the level in which I do it

781
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 1: is wholly contingent on my ability to be mentally and

782
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: emotionally well. When we talk about wellness like, I mean

783
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: that shit literally. I have to be well in order

784
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: to do the breakfast club and the Grio and the

785
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: View in the same day, doctor Joy. I have to

786
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: be well to write this book and then go on

787
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: a seven city book tour and then do the accompanying

788
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: press that comes with it. You gotta be well, So

789
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 1: I would say, for me, I have invested in individual

790
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 1: talk therapy for the past oh gosh, since basically I

791
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: moved to New York City. I saw my very first

792
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: therapist when I was on campus at UNC Chapel Hill,

793
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: where it was becoming apparent to me I would get

794
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: into spaces where for weeks at a time, I wouldn't

795
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: want to leave my room. I would just sit in

796
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: the dorm watching reruns of Golden Girls. Shout out to

797
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 1: Golden Girls. But I knew there was something going on

798
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: where I was. Now, I know I was isolating, right,

799
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: I was isolating. I was definitely having at least some

800
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: level of low to mid great depression going on, and

801
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: I was self medicating like a lot of people do

802
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: with alcohol and probably some overeating as well. So I

803
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,240
Speaker 1: saw my first therapist at the undergraduate level through student health.

804
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: And so I want to talk about resources because a

805
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,439
Speaker 1: lot of times, you know, I'm of a generation, thank

806
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,359
Speaker 1: god you and your contemporary doctor George changing this, but

807
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: I'm from a generation where therapy was some white people

808
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: shit right, and especially if you were raised in the

809
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: church or with a faith practice, it was not of God, right.

810
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: So I want to challenge the culture here when we

811
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: start talking about the importance of making space for authentic

812
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:10,280
Speaker 1: Black identity and mental health treatment and therapy and faith

813
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 1: and beliefs in whatever your higher power is. And it's

814
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: not an or, it's an end. So talk therapy is

815
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,439
Speaker 1: very important to me. Something else that I did. I'm

816
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: a proud graduate of the Hoffman Institute. It's not therapy.

817
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: It is a wellness center. There's one in Connecticut and

818
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: there's also one in the Napa Valley area of California.

819
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: It's a seven day long retreat where you turn your

820
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: phone in and iPad and all that good jazz. They

821
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: lock it up like you're going to Beyonce concert, don't

822
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: get it back until eight days later. And I know

823
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 1: that's gonna like sound insane to a lot of people

824
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: listening to this conversation. When I tell you, doctor Joy,

825
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 1: that along with my law degree, are the two best

826
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,879
Speaker 1: investments I've ever made into my own self. I mean

827
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 1: that from the bottom of my heart. We unpack childhood trauma,

828
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: we learn to forgive our parents, ourselves, our circumstances. Sometimes

829
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: you guys, just got to forgive the circumstances in which

830
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 1: you were born, right, and then from that, I've been

831
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: able to build incredible relationships, starting first with me and myself,

832
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: and forgive myself for the things I did when I

833
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 1: was just trying to survive, for the choices I made,

834
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 1: including my first marriage when I was just trying to survive.

835
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: So Hoffman Institute talk therapy. I also am very public

836
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: and the fact that I take five milligrams of Selexe

837
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 1: every day and that is to help quell my innate anxiety.

838
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 1: I've got a black woman primary care doctor. I've got

839
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: a black woman O B G y N. I've got

840
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: a black woman everything you know, for the most part,

841
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: and that is a part of my wellness commitment. I

842
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: love that I hadn't heard of the Hoffman Institute, so

843
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: I'll definitely check that out. It sounds like an interesting program. Yeah, Yeah,

844
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 1: so just about five percent of lawyers are black. So

845
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: you've already alluded to this, but I want you to

846
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: kind of really drive home the importance of having black

847
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: people show up in all of these spaces, in the

848
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: TV and media, in the courtroom, Like, why is that

849
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 1: so important, doctor Georgy's important because, as the African proverb

850
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,720
Speaker 1: tells us, as long as the hunter writes the story,

851
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: the lion will always lose. Thus, as long as we

852
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,959
Speaker 1: are not plentiful enough in practicing law, both as prosecutors,

853
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: defense lawyers, as transactional attorneys, as litigation specialists in the

854
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: public sector, the private sector, you name it, as long

855
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: as there are not enough black storytellers in talk, in radio,

856
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 1: in podcasting, in written works in traditional New York Times,

857
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: LA Times, Washington Post, traditional journalistic outlets, as long as

858
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: we are what we currently are, which is five to

859
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: sometimes two to sometimes one, if we're lucky seven percent

860
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: of those spaces, we will always be vulnerable to our

861
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: stories being hijacked by dominant storytellers. It's just that simple.

862
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 1: It's actually that simple. So one thing that really still

863
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: bothers me, doctor Joy is when we talk about tokenism,

864
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: even amongst ourselves, when we say, well, oh, we already

865
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: got a black person on the viewer. We already got

866
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: a black person at the Today Show, we already got

867
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 1: a black person who's been Attorney general. You've got to

868
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:29,919
Speaker 1: be kidding me. Do you know how many old white men,

869
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 1: how many white women occupy the same We would never

870
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 1: hear a narrative that says, oh, the viewer already has

871
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: two white women, like we would never hear that, you know,

872
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 1: Or we would never hear like the breakfast club already

873
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: has two men. I think some of our work, and

874
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: we still have work that we need to do internally,

875
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: is around us reshaping expectations that we have of us

876
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: and ourselves as a culture. A lot of my work,

877
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: doctor Joy is not really rooted in white change. I

878
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: think that that's important. I love my colleagues that do

879
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: that work. That's not my ministry. I'm not particularly interested

880
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: in changing white people. Contrary to misconceptions people got from

881
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 1: my time on Ronie, that was never about those white

882
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,800
Speaker 1: women child. It really wasn't. And if you really pay attention,

883
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: it's obvious that it's not right. You see, I'm talking

884
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: through them when I'm having a conversation with lu Anne

885
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: del SEPs, for instance, who has the audacity to ask

886
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: me if I've ever heard of Sag Harbor And I

887
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: say to her very casually, oh, my god, lu and

888
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: I love sack Harbor. You do know. It was one

889
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 1: of the original places of waterfront property where black elites, doctors, lawyers, judges, engineers, nurses,

890
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 1: teachers were able to own waterfront resort property in the

891
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: United States of America. I love Sag Harbor. And she's

892
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: looking crazy in the face because she doesn't even know

893
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: that the cultural rich history of her own property. That

894
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: was not a teachable moment for Luanne. I don't give

895
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,439
Speaker 1: a damn if Luanne Nu didn't know, still don't know, right,

896
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 1: that is a broader mirror for us to know. My

897
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 1: mama didn't know that until she saw that episode of

898
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,399
Speaker 1: Ronnie Doctor Joy. That's for us. And listen, if you're

899
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 1: white or other and you resonate with it, consider it

900
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: vicarious education. But it is not intended for you. That's

901
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 1: our medicine that we need to know so that we

902
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 1: can walk a little more boldly and proudly and more

903
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 1: beautifully in our own existence. So those are some of

904
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: the things I would say, Where is our internal work

905
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: as a people in a culture. That's why I wrote

906
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: that on black it is written for us. This is

907
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: not convincing white people of how great and wonderful and

908
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: special Black people are. I think before we spend more

909
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: time on that, we've got to be wholly convinced our

910
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 1: own selves, not in a facade. We can't afford to

911
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 1: have a veneer around it. We've really got too deeply

912
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: understand and have a knowingness, doctor Joy. You know again,

913
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,720
Speaker 1: confidence comes from competence, and a lot of the reason

914
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,919
Speaker 1: I call blackness my superpower is because I really know

915
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 1: the narrative of our innate competence as a people, both

916
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: historically and in contemporary context. Not enough of us know that,

917
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: which is why and then you see legislators, you know,

918
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 1: working overtime to make sure we don't know it. Now,

919
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: I'm not bothered by it, because I know that we

920
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,399
Speaker 1: are a people that the most historic challenges have never

921
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: prevented us from doing what we do and knowing who

922
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: we are. So we just have to continue that work.

923
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:45,359
Speaker 1: So I know so many people are going to one

924
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: and stay connected to you and grab copies of your book.

925
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: Where can we find you online? Ebane. What is your

926
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: website as well as any social media handles you'd like

927
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 1: to share? Yes, please go to my website. It is

928
00:50:55,960 --> 00:51:00,399
Speaker 1: Ebony k Williams dot com, Ebo ni Ka Williams dot com.

929
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: You can get links to better on Black of course.

930
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: Also the first book Pretty Powerful. I really recommend that

931
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 1: book for women in business and law and it's fantastic. Also,

932
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: you can see my whole archives, so you know, again,

933
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 1: we talk about content, doctor Joy. We talk about how

934
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 1: you learn and what resources you can avail yourself to.

935
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: I have archived every single Breakfast Club interview. You can

936
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: spend a whole day just on Ebony kay Williams dot

937
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: com watching Breakfast Club interviews, watching sidebars from the Grio,

938
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 1: listening to interviews on the View and what have you.

939
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: So I really really welcome y'all to that platform, which

940
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: is my website and social media wise, I'm an auntie,

941
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 1: doctor Joy. Okay, I'm not winning, so if you look

942
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: for me on TikTok, you would be disappointed. Okay. I

943
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: am only on Instagram. Okay, Eboney Kay Williams on Instagram.

944
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 1: I do check my dms myself. Please reach out if

945
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 1: you have questions or just want to chit chat perfect well.

946
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending some time with us today, Ebanie,

947
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: this has been fantastic. Thank you so much, Doctor Joy.

948
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: Deeply grateful to you. A huge thank you to Ebony

949
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: for joining us this week and for sharing her wisdom

950
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 1: and insight with our community. To learn more about the

951
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: work that she's doing and to stay connected to everything

952
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:14,959
Speaker 1: coming up for her, be sure to visit the show

953
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 1: notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com sash Session three hundred,

954
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: and don't forget to text two of your girls and

955
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: tell them to check out the episode as well. In

956
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: case you missed it, yesterday, we dropped our very first

957
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: episode of TVG University, which caters exclusively to the College

958
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 1: Day's sisters in our community. That episode is all about

959
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: the growing pains of graduating college, so be sure to

960
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 1: check it out or pass it along to someone who

961
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,800
Speaker 1: might appreciate the conversation. You can find more information about

962
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: that in the show notes as well. If you're looking

963
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist

964
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And

965
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 1: if you want to continue digging into this topic or

966
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 1: just be a community with other sisters. Come on over

967
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy

968
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You

969
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: can join us at Community dot Therapy for blackgirls dot com.

970
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,919
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Frida Lucas and Elise Ellis

971
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: and editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so

972
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 1: much for joining me again this week. I look forward

973
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,879
Speaker 1: to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take

974
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:22,399
Speaker 1: it care