Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart Radio and
Speaker 1: Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky that was to be
Speaker 1: on the television program in Boston and last summer and
Speaker 1: with another woman who was an abductee, and we got
Speaker 1: to the station. It was one of those morning talk
Speaker 1: shows where you're usually sandwiched in between a somebody's written
Speaker 1: a cookbook and somebody with writing about divorces, and then
Speaker 1: there's you with UFOs again. But any rate, I never
Speaker 1: know who I'm gonna be on with it. I walked
Speaker 1: in and somebody came over to me, one of the producers,
Speaker 1: and said Dr Carl Sagan is going to be on
Speaker 1: the program, and my heart sank. I felt I'd been ambushed,
Speaker 1: and so I was quickly thinking what am I going
Speaker 1: to do because I can't say anything against an authority
Speaker 1: quote unquote like Carl Sagan, because I know who's going
Speaker 1: to be believed. And at some point I saw a
Speaker 1: man sitting over in the corner a couple of people
Speaker 1: who looked rather thin and frail, and I forgotten what
Speaker 1: Carl Sagan look like, and I said, well, that's not Sagan,
Speaker 1: and then in a moment, the man got up and
Speaker 1: came over to me, and it was Carl Sagan. He's
Speaker 1: been ill and he really doesn't look well. And he said,
Speaker 1: he said, you're about Hopkins, aren't you. And I practically
Speaker 1: went through the floor because I thought I was the enemy.
Speaker 1: So he came over and we started talking and he said,
Speaker 1: he said, I read your book, which again astonished me.
Speaker 1: He said, Bud, you really have to have better evidence.
Speaker 1: And he said, you know, uh, in the fruit the
Speaker 1: slogan um extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. And I said,
Speaker 1: what we should be saying here is that an extraordinary
Speaker 1: phenomenon demands an extraordinary investigation. It is not. And use
Speaker 1: that line because that's the point we have an extraor.
Speaker 1: It isn't that an extraordinary phenomenal demands extraordinary evidence? Is
Speaker 1: if okay, busters all that's going on, come over here
Speaker 1: and give us a piece of the captain's log book
Speaker 1: and then we'll accept it. I said, Carl, if we
Speaker 1: had those pieces of things, we wouldn't need an investigation,
Speaker 1: would we? I said, we would have the answer. I said,
Speaker 1: it's it's in the absence of more information that we
Speaker 1: have to continue looking into it. And I said, you know, Carl,
Speaker 1: I don't defend my general ship. I said, I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to be uh, George Washington. I said, but I
Speaker 1: am trying to be Paul Revere. And I said, Paul
Speaker 1: Revere was an artist, and uh, he just went around
Speaker 1: trying to get people to pay attention to this. And
Speaker 1: I said, you guys should be doing it, not me.
Speaker 1: In the nineteen eighties and nineties, Bud Hopkins, John mac
Speaker 1: and David Jacobs pioneered a major change in the study
Speaker 1: of alien abductions. UFO researcher Robert Schaefer refers to them
Speaker 1: as the Troyka. They claimed their research showed that aliens
Speaker 1: were able to snatch people at any time, for anywhere,
Speaker 1: and there was nothing we could do about it. The
Speaker 1: question this raised was what were the aliens trying to accomplish.
Speaker 1: I'm Toby Ball, this is Strange Arrivals, episode ten, the
Speaker 1: Secretary General. Now, essentially, my take on this whole thing
Speaker 1: is not that they are evil, malevolent here to deliberately
Speaker 1: hurt us. I haven't a single case where I could
Speaker 1: say it looks as if they're just sort of demons,
Speaker 1: like a motorcycle gang, to do the worst they possibly
Speaker 1: can do. There seems to be an objectivity about what
Speaker 1: they're doing. This is Hopkins speculating about the alien's intentions.
Speaker 1: They're not our space brothers either, and they're not quote
Speaker 1: unquote visitors. This is not what we're dealing with. We're
Speaker 1: dealing with something we do not understand. Let's call them
Speaker 1: uf O occupants, so let's call them what we want to.
Speaker 1: But let's not try to make them overly friendly, because
Speaker 1: they're not, and let's not try to make them overly malicious. Essentially,
Speaker 1: their attitude is one of a kind of condescension, and
Speaker 1: they're trying to keep people comfortable, and they're not very deeply, deeply,
Speaker 1: deeply interested, but they have certain needs. We know that
Speaker 1: they seem to need genetic material that they're taking sperm over.
Speaker 1: We know they're doing these reproductive experiments in attempt at
Speaker 1: hybridization and so forth. Too many cases have come to light,
Speaker 1: too many similar descriptions for this to be eliminated as possibility.
Speaker 1: It is very central. Since the very first abduction stories,
Speaker 1: alien interest in human reproduction has been a common theme.
Speaker 1: Think back to the need plunged into Betty Hill's abdomen
Speaker 1: or the wild sexual encounter between Antonio Villis Bois and
Speaker 1: the beautiful red haired alien who screamed like an animal
Speaker 1: as they coupled. But Hopkins, mac and Jacobs took the
Speaker 1: next step. Why were the aliens interested in human reproduction
Speaker 1: because they wanted to breed human alien hybrids? And why
Speaker 1: would they want to do that. David Jacobs wrote a
Speaker 1: book called The Threat, expanding on the hybrid theory UFO
Speaker 1: researcher Robert Schaefer. Basically, you know we are screwed is
Speaker 1: a message that Jakins gives. There is this superior intelligence
Speaker 1: that is moving, you know, at will in our skies invisibly,
Speaker 1: and is abducting us and sometimes doing terrible things to us,
Speaker 1: and we have absolutely no way of fight back, and
Speaker 1: we have absolutely no idea what their agenda is. The
Speaker 1: degree of paranoia in that book, it's amazing. This is
Speaker 1: David Jacobs from lecture. He begins by talking about what
Speaker 1: abductees reports seeing aboard alien crafts. Every time a person
Speaker 1: walks down the hallway, when they look at the various
Speaker 1: rooms that they're walking by on their way to the
Speaker 1: room that they're going into, what do they see in
Speaker 1: those rooms? Tables for these on them? I mean, we
Speaker 1: are looking at a program that is still in every
Speaker 1: conceivable way for the idea of of doctu evil for
Speaker 1: that purpose. Well, the interesting thing is because that when
Speaker 1: they have docte evil, they have got loads of people.
Speaker 1: Should they have got him one at a time into
Speaker 1: the small room, all of eceptom of table. But we
Speaker 1: see them as well with twenty people, fifty people, a
Speaker 1: hundred people, five hundred tables in a room them with
Speaker 1: people from them in an assembly line fashion. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then do let's get them out, get our end? Do it?
Speaker 1: Get him out? Over and over again, And we think
Speaker 1: we are seeing this twenty four hours a day, seven
Speaker 1: days a week. We get away the month after month,
Speaker 1: year after year, decade after decade, around the world, and
Speaker 1: here Jacob's vision diverges from Hopkins and becomes very bleak.
Speaker 1: So I think that this is ultimately a program of
Speaker 1: integration into the society. The fact is, I think that
Speaker 1: the answer to the Harem paradox is answered by the
Speaker 1: UFO phenomenon. Where are they? They aren't here, And the
Speaker 1: answer to the other problem of hagonomyham counter colonizes as well.
Speaker 1: They probably are a colonized. This does appear to be
Speaker 1: integration or colonization program. John mac the third member of
Speaker 1: the troika, also acknowledged that creating hybrids was an integral
Speaker 1: part of the abduction phenomenon, but he had a much
Speaker 1: more optimistic, spiritual take on these encounters. Mac was somewhat
Speaker 1: new aging to help there here, to help us evolve,
Speaker 1: or something like that. Carol Rainey, a documentary filmmaker and
Speaker 1: the ex wife of Bud Hopkins, also noted the difference
Speaker 1: in Max's theory. He was definitely more interested in an
Speaker 1: extraterrestrial outreach program and something that would be a welcoming
Speaker 1: program for any beings who might approach the Earth. In
Speaker 1: his book Abduction Human Encounters with Aliens, Mac describes eight
Speaker 1: types of experiences that humans have with aliens. Each type
Speaker 1: appears to be related to human growth or transformation. He
Speaker 1: then writes, the result of all these experiences for abductive
Speaker 1: ease is the discovery of a new and altered sense
Speaker 1: of their place in the cosmic design, one that is
Speaker 1: more modest, respectful, and harmonious in relation to the Earth
Speaker 1: and its living systems. Emotions of awe, respect for the
Speaker 1: mystery of nature, and a heightened sense of the sacredness
Speaker 1: of the natural world are experienced along with deep sadness
Speaker 1: about the apparent hopelessness of Earth's environmental crisis. So you
Speaker 1: have Jacobs and Max staking out opposing ideas about the
Speaker 1: alien's intentions, with Howkins somewhere in the middle. But the
Speaker 1: one thing they do all agree on is that the
Speaker 1: alien program of producing hybrids is real. Author Terry matheson
Speaker 1: the whole notion of harvesting and creating an alien hybrid
Speaker 1: offspring is scientifically preposterous. I mean, I've taught the scientists
Speaker 1: and they just laugh, and they say that David Jacobs
Speaker 1: is a history orient Bud Hopkins was an abstract expressionist artist.
Speaker 1: They're not medical people. They're not scientists. No scientists would
Speaker 1: believe anything like this was even possible, and even if
Speaker 1: it were, as Whitley Streamer even pointed out in one
Speaker 1: of his books, he said, we humans could do a
Speaker 1: much better job in a much shorter period of time.
Speaker 1: We could grab a few people at random and study
Speaker 1: them and find out exactly how their systems worked and
Speaker 1: how they reproduced, and find out virtually all was to
Speaker 1: know about us physically in a fraction of the time.
Speaker 1: But these aliens are spending live an out of for
Speaker 1: over what fifty years? How did we get to this
Speaker 1: moment where a guy like David Jacobs is claiming that
Speaker 1: incredible numbers of people are being abducted and we are
Speaker 1: being colonized as we speak, by human alien hybrids. What
Speaker 1: are the incentives to create these bombastic claims? I mean,
Speaker 1: the thing is, there's almost no money in working the
Speaker 1: UFO research field unless you're doing regular gigs. Like standard
Speaker 1: Stan Freedman, who was a friend of mine. He knew
Speaker 1: how to market himself and he got gigs all over
Speaker 1: the world. Actually he kept a modest income coming in.
Speaker 1: Bud didn't do that. The way he worked was to
Speaker 1: have a really strong concept in Missing Time, and then
Speaker 1: he was only interested in cases after that that broke
Speaker 1: new ground. Missing Time was his first book published in
Speaker 1: In it, he presented the idea that there was a
Speaker 1: consistency among alien abduction claims, they granted them legitimacy and
Speaker 1: provided a basic common narrative. Six years later he published Intruders.
Speaker 1: The case in Intruders of all sorts of new ground
Speaker 1: in terms of him claiming to have discovered patterns. I
Speaker 1: guess in that case it would be the breeding pattern
Speaker 1: of abductees who would feel their eggs had been taken
Speaker 1: or the sperm had been harvested, and years later they'll
Speaker 1: be taken aboard a craft and they will see what
Speaker 1: they believe are their children, half alien a half human.
Speaker 1: You know, it began to get so weird to me
Speaker 1: that I would push back even more on how that
Speaker 1: knowledge came to be. Carol and Budd contemplated writing a
Speaker 1: book together. It would be based on her science background
Speaker 1: and research into how cutting edge technologies might illuminate the
Speaker 1: UFO phenomenon. We went to talk to a couple of
Speaker 1: editors at publishing houses. This must have been the early
Speaker 1: two thousand's. They said, don't come back unless you have
Speaker 1: a brand new, never seen before idea for a U
Speaker 1: a phone book. So the push is always for new, bigger, better,
Speaker 1: more outlandish. And I would say that Dave and Bud
Speaker 1: definitely delivered on that in each of their books. This
Speaker 1: same logic applied to the lecture circuit and UFO conferences
Speaker 1: where Hopkins would present cases. People don't want to come
Speaker 1: there and you know, pay to hear the same thing
Speaker 1: they've heard before. He was wanting cases that would further
Speaker 1: develop the narrative, or, as he might say, cases that
Speaker 1: would illuminate it further. This search for new cases that
Speaker 1: would advance the field led Hopkins to a woman whose
Speaker 1: story he would promote as the most complex ever investigated.
Speaker 1: After the break, strange arrivals will return in a moment.
Speaker 1: The search for new, bigger, more outlandish cases reached its
Speaker 1: apex when Bud Hopkins was contacted by a woman he
Speaker 1: identified by the pseudonym Linda Cortill. She had come across
Speaker 1: Hopkins book intruders in a bookstore, and it resurfaced hidden
Speaker 1: memories that she herself had been abducted from her Manhattan apartment.
Speaker 1: The case was unveiled at the Landmark Abduction Study Conference
Speaker 1: held at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. This was organized
Speaker 1: by Detroita. These guys still eve that they finally had
Speaker 1: all their ducks in a row and had lined up
Speaker 1: all their proof, and they had very basically, they invited
Speaker 1: the world in the invited journalists, They invited the different
Speaker 1: organizations that even invited the skeptics. And this was where
Speaker 1: they first announced or debuted, if you will, that big case,
Speaker 1: the case in all cases, which was the levitated Linda
Speaker 1: Case Linda, he was saying, Linda Courtill. She's a woman
Speaker 1: who lived in Manhattan near the Brooklyn Bridge, and supposedly
Speaker 1: the aliens abducted her outer window. From Carol Rainey's documentary
Speaker 1: and Progress, here's Bud Hopkins on the Brooklyn Bridge describing
Speaker 1: what happened. I'm standing at exactly the spot where this
Speaker 1: very strange event was seen on at three am really
Speaker 1: on November thirty nine. Woman is driving from Brooklyn to
Speaker 1: New York right down here in the outer lanes, with
Speaker 1: car engine died. The lights were now and she looked
Speaker 1: over to this building. One of the distance was a
Speaker 1: little pointed roof, and at that point she saw a
Speaker 1: burst of light as a UFO hovering only a few
Speaker 1: feet above it turned out all of its lights. Two
Speaker 1: small figures blow her and one above her. The light
Speaker 1: was intense. The woman was terrified and thought they must
Speaker 1: be making a movie. This is a film of some sort,
Speaker 1: and they the figures floated up into the UFO, and
Speaker 1: then the UFO changed its lights, zoomed out across the
Speaker 1: river and across the bridge. It disappeared, and the woman's
Speaker 1: car lights and engines started back up again, but this
Speaker 1: is the way it started for her that night. This
Speaker 1: is just the beginning. You can easily do an entire
Speaker 1: series on this story, so I'll try to lay out
Speaker 1: the basics. There's plenty on the internet if you want
Speaker 1: a more complete picture. I'm not going to evaluate the claims.
Speaker 1: I just want to give a sense of how wild
Speaker 1: this story gets. The early morning event was apparently witnessed
Speaker 1: by about two dozen people whose cars had stalled on
Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Bridge. Among them were two men named Richard
Speaker 1: and Dan. Their last names have never been revealed. They
Speaker 1: were officers in the New York City Police Department or
Speaker 1: possibly the Secret Service or even the CIA. It's not
Speaker 1: entirely clear. Regardless, there was a third person in the car,
Speaker 1: an important diplomat. They were escorting him down to a
Speaker 1: heliport in Lower Manhattan that night, and their car was
Speaker 1: stalled by the UFOs power train. A person whose name
Speaker 1: but didn't use was Perez the quay Are, the Secretary
Speaker 1: of the United Nations at the time. This was the
Speaker 1: story's biggest bombshell. Linda Cortillas abduction was actually witnessed by
Speaker 1: Javier Perez de Quare, a Peruvian diplomat who was the
Speaker 1: Secretary General of the United Nations. From later, Richard would
Speaker 1: tell Hopkins that he and Quare were also both actually abducted.
Speaker 1: Are not surprisingly disputes this. In a note fact to
Speaker 1: the PBS program Nova, which was doing an episode on
Speaker 1: hopkins abduction investigations, he wrote, I cannot but strongly deny
Speaker 1: the claim that I have had an abduction experience at
Speaker 1: any time. On several occasions, when questioned about the matter,
Speaker 1: I reiterated that these allegations were completely false, and I
Speaker 1: hope that this statement will definitely put an end to
Speaker 1: these unfounded rumors. Things got still stranger from there. Richard
Speaker 1: and Dan became cessed with Linda. Twice they kidnapped her
Speaker 1: off the streets of New York. The second time, Dan
Speaker 1: tried to drown her in the Atlantic Ocean and might
Speaker 1: have succeeded if Richard hadn't stopped him. Richard, you see,
Speaker 1: was in love with her. There's plenty more in this vein.
Speaker 1: Quare gave Cortill's son an antique diving helmet as a gift.
Speaker 1: Linda found out that her red blood cells, or some
Speaker 1: of them at least, were immortal. It's worth noting that
Speaker 1: Hopkins never met Richard or Dan, communicating with them only
Speaker 1: by phone or letter. But despite the sensational nature of
Speaker 1: this story, Hopkins apparently held back even stranger material that
Speaker 1: he thought might undermine Linda's credibility. There was so much
Speaker 1: cherry picking that Bud did. Let's say Linda meeting with
Speaker 1: the Pope and the Pope knew all about her story
Speaker 1: and abducted her in a in one of the popemobiles
Speaker 1: or a black car to take her down to wherever
Speaker 1: he was staying when he came to visit in yes
Speaker 1: the early nineties, but did not include that story because
Speaker 1: it was pretty over the top that Linda Cortilla was
Speaker 1: invited by the Pope to come be the ambassador to
Speaker 1: extraterrestrials and that she would have to live at the
Speaker 1: Vatican and leave New York City. Blah blah blah. It's
Speaker 1: hard to imagine that Hopkins didn't harbor doubts about at
Speaker 1: least parts of this story. The fact that he withheld
Speaker 1: potentially embarrassing information seems to confirm this. It's the kind
Speaker 1: of incredible story that requires strong evidence if you want
Speaker 1: people to take it seriously. So why invest so much
Speaker 1: in Linda Cortilla. He wanted so badly to prove what
Speaker 1: he believed to be happening. He wanted to prove that
Speaker 1: it was actually happening, and that he had evidence. This
Speaker 1: general credulous nous lead to more high profile embarrassments. A
Speaker 1: two thousand and one Time magazine article on John Mac
Speaker 1: featured the story of Donna Bassett, a Boston based writer.
Speaker 1: She made up a multi generational history of UFO interactions,
Speaker 1: sent it to Mac, and was brought in for hypnotic regression.
Speaker 1: She said that she faked a trance, that Mac asked
Speaker 1: her leading questions that she answered to his satisfaction. From
Speaker 1: the Time magazine article, among other recollections, she told of
Speaker 1: an encounter with John F. Kennedy and Nikita Khrushchoff on
Speaker 1: board a spaceship during the Cuban missile crisis. Bassett said
Speaker 1: Kruschof was crying and that I sat in his lap
Speaker 1: and I put my arms around his net and I
Speaker 1: told him it would be okay. Hearing her tale, Mac
Speaker 1: became so excited that he leaned on the bed too
Speaker 1: heavily and it collapsed. Hopkins, too fell prey to hoaxer's
Speaker 1: A man named Jim Mortarello claimed to have been admitted
Speaker 1: to an emergency room with injuries from a harrowing abduction.
Speaker 1: He also convinced Hopkins that a group of doctors and
Speaker 1: Upstate New York, We're going to conduct a study of
Speaker 1: patients under their care who showed physical signs of abduction experiences.
Speaker 1: This was not true, nor were any of his other claims,
Speaker 1: including that he had been the marketing director for the
Speaker 1: Japanese electronics company had Tachi. In the end, his lives
Speaker 1: became too much for the board of advisors that in
Speaker 1: theory oversaw Hopkins research for advisors resigned and those that
Speaker 1: remained forced Hopkins to post a letter acknowledging Mortarello's deception
Speaker 1: of the Linda Cortilla case. Schaefer says, just obvious, made
Speaker 1: up stories. It really had backfired on them in a
Speaker 1: big way. This story just grew so huge and so preposterous,
Speaker 1: and they basically had left the store on this thing.
Speaker 1: From that point on, it was pretty hard for anyone
Speaker 1: to take the Troy get too terribly seriously. The hoaxes
Speaker 1: that followed cemented this judgment. Carol believes that hopkins refusal
Speaker 1: to allow oversight from the board of advisors was a
Speaker 1: critical component of his eventual loss of credibility. It's just
Speaker 1: that but had a very strong tool he might have used,
Speaker 1: which was the Intruders Foundation Advisory Board, and they could
Speaker 1: have prevented him from going so far into the weeds
Speaker 1: with the Linda Cortilla case, with the Jim more Laro case.
Speaker 1: That more of advisors was amazing group of very diverse people,
Speaker 1: but smart people. A medical writer and engineer, someone in marketing,
Speaker 1: a musician and astronomer. They were strong, smart people who
Speaker 1: had hoped that Bud was going to share what he
Speaker 1: learned about how to research this phenomenon. So there were
Speaker 1: people with a broad enough background that if he had
Speaker 1: allowed them to guide his research, it would have been
Speaker 1: so much better for everybody. But he would not permit
Speaker 1: any oversight of his cases, and of course Dave Jacobs
Speaker 1: didn't either. Each of those two men worked entirely on
Speaker 1: their own. Occasionally they would have someone come sit in
Speaker 1: on a session or two, but that wasn't necessarily the
Speaker 1: standard way they did things when that person was there watching.
Speaker 1: It's just a missed opportunity and a sadness because after
Speaker 1: a few other hoaxes, came down the pike. The advisory
Speaker 1: committee just said, we can't support you going around and
Speaker 1: speaking at conferences about cases that we believe are not valid,
Speaker 1: that we believe our hoaxes, and we would like to
Speaker 1: have one or two of our advisory board members work
Speaker 1: with you on cases. Bud was only willing to give
Speaker 1: them access to the tapes, but he would take a
Speaker 1: trip to the museum while they listened to it. In
Speaker 1: Hopkins died from cancer. John mac was struck and killed
Speaker 1: by a drunk driver in two thousand and four while
Speaker 1: he was in London to give a lecture. David Jacobs
Speaker 1: is still alive and apparently continuing abduction research. He did
Speaker 1: not respond to my requests for an interview. I asked
Speaker 1: Carol what Hopkins believed the aliens wanted from us. I
Speaker 1: found her answer very poignant, and it made me think
Speaker 1: of how Betty Andreas inframed her abduction narrative to reflect
Speaker 1: her personal beliefs. The beings who were coming to us
Speaker 1: either needed our resources, which were Bud certainly believed were
Speaker 1: our humanist resources, our ability to be empathetic, our ability
Speaker 1: to love our children and to love other people in
Speaker 1: our lives, and to take care of them. Bud was
Speaker 1: a humanist, abub all things. He really was, and that's
Speaker 1: the quality I loved in him. I think about Hopkins
Speaker 1: an artist, looking at the way that technology was changing
Speaker 1: our world, making it into a colder, more dispassionate place,
Speaker 1: seemingly eroding the prominence of art and empathy and our
Speaker 1: humanistic culture. It's not hard to envision his concept of
Speaker 1: the abduction phenomenon as a kind of metaphor for the
Speaker 1: fear that this new reality might have provoked in him.
Speaker 1: I don't believe that humans are being abducted by the
Speaker 1: thousands and used to create hybrids, but I do find
Speaker 1: this fear of the way our culture is changing very reasonable.
Speaker 1: With the Troika now largely out of the picture, what
Speaker 1: is the state of abduction research today? What does science
Speaker 1: tell us about the difference between the psychology of people
Speaker 1: prone to belief and people prone to skepticism? How should
Speaker 1: we evaluate extraordinary claims next time on the season finale
Speaker 1: of Strange Arrivals. Strange Arrivals is a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky. This
Speaker 1: episode was written and hosted by Toby Bowl and produced
Speaker 1: by Miranda Hawkins and Josh Thane, with executive producers Alex Williams,
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Aaron Manky. Betty Hill was portrayed by
Speaker 1: Gina Rickike. Barney Hill was portrayed by Jason Williams. Special
Speaker 1: thanks to the Miln's Special Collections and Archives at the
Speaker 1: University of New Hampshire, John Horrigan, w y C h
Speaker 1: A M in Norwich, Connecticut, John White, and David O'Leary,
Speaker 1: the executive producer of the History Channel's dramatic series Project
Speaker 1: blue Book. Learn more about the show over at Grimm
Speaker 1: and Mile dot com. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.