1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart Radio and 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky that was to be 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: on the television program in Boston and last summer and 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: with another woman who was an abductee, and we got 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: to the station. It was one of those morning talk 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: shows where you're usually sandwiched in between a somebody's written 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: a cookbook and somebody with writing about divorces, and then 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: there's you with UFOs again. But any rate, I never 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: know who I'm gonna be on with it. I walked 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: in and somebody came over to me, one of the producers, 11 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: and said Dr Carl Sagan is going to be on 12 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: the program, and my heart sank. I felt I'd been ambushed, 13 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: and so I was quickly thinking what am I going 14 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: to do because I can't say anything against an authority 15 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: quote unquote like Carl Sagan, because I know who's going 16 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: to be believed. And at some point I saw a 17 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: man sitting over in the corner a couple of people 18 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: who looked rather thin and frail, and I forgotten what 19 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: Carl Sagan look like, and I said, well, that's not Sagan, 20 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: and then in a moment, the man got up and 21 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: came over to me, and it was Carl Sagan. He's 22 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: been ill and he really doesn't look well. And he said, 23 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: he said, you're about Hopkins, aren't you. And I practically 24 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: went through the floor because I thought I was the enemy. 25 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: So he came over and we started talking and he said, 26 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: he said, I read your book, which again astonished me. 27 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: He said, Bud, you really have to have better evidence. 28 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: And he said, you know, uh, in the fruit the 29 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: slogan um extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. And I said, 30 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: what we should be saying here is that an extraordinary 31 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: phenomenon demands an extraordinary investigation. It is not. And use 32 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:56,639 Speaker 1: that line because that's the point we have an extraor. 33 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: It isn't that an extraordinary phenomenal demands extraordinary evidence? Is 34 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: if okay, busters all that's going on, come over here 35 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: and give us a piece of the captain's log book 36 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: and then we'll accept it. I said, Carl, if we 37 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: had those pieces of things, we wouldn't need an investigation, 38 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 1: would we? I said, we would have the answer. I said, 39 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: it's it's in the absence of more information that we 40 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: have to continue looking into it. And I said, you know, Carl, 41 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: I don't defend my general ship. I said, I'm not 42 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: trying to be uh, George Washington. I said, but I 43 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: am trying to be Paul Revere. And I said, Paul 44 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: Revere was an artist, and uh, he just went around 45 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: trying to get people to pay attention to this. And 46 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: I said, you guys should be doing it, not me. 47 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: In the nineteen eighties and nineties, Bud Hopkins, John mac 48 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: and David Jacobs pioneered a major change in the study 49 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: of alien abductions. UFO researcher Robert Schaefer refers to them 50 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: as the Troyka. They claimed their research showed that aliens 51 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: were able to snatch people at any time, for anywhere, 52 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: and there was nothing we could do about it. The 53 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: question this raised was what were the aliens trying to accomplish. 54 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: I'm Toby Ball, this is Strange Arrivals, episode ten, the 55 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: Secretary General. Now, essentially, my take on this whole thing 56 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: is not that they are evil, malevolent here to deliberately 57 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: hurt us. I haven't a single case where I could 58 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: say it looks as if they're just sort of demons, 59 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: like a motorcycle gang, to do the worst they possibly 60 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: can do. There seems to be an objectivity about what 61 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: they're doing. This is Hopkins speculating about the alien's intentions. 62 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: They're not our space brothers either, and they're not quote 63 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: unquote visitors. This is not what we're dealing with. We're 64 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: dealing with something we do not understand. Let's call them 65 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: uf O occupants, so let's call them what we want to. 66 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: But let's not try to make them overly friendly, because 67 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: they're not, and let's not try to make them overly malicious. Essentially, 68 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: their attitude is one of a kind of condescension, and 69 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: they're trying to keep people comfortable, and they're not very deeply, deeply, 70 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: deeply interested, but they have certain needs. We know that 71 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: they seem to need genetic material that they're taking sperm over. 72 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: We know they're doing these reproductive experiments in attempt at 73 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: hybridization and so forth. Too many cases have come to light, 74 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: too many similar descriptions for this to be eliminated as possibility. 75 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: It is very central. Since the very first abduction stories, 76 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: alien interest in human reproduction has been a common theme. 77 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: Think back to the need plunged into Betty Hill's abdomen 78 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 1: or the wild sexual encounter between Antonio Villis Bois and 79 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,239 Speaker 1: the beautiful red haired alien who screamed like an animal 80 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: as they coupled. But Hopkins, mac and Jacobs took the 81 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: next step. Why were the aliens interested in human reproduction 82 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: because they wanted to breed human alien hybrids? And why 83 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: would they want to do that. David Jacobs wrote a 84 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: book called The Threat, expanding on the hybrid theory UFO 85 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: researcher Robert Schaefer. Basically, you know we are screwed is 86 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: a message that Jakins gives. There is this superior intelligence 87 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: that is moving, you know, at will in our skies invisibly, 88 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: and is abducting us and sometimes doing terrible things to us, 89 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: and we have absolutely no way of fight back, and 90 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: we have absolutely no idea what their agenda is. The 91 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: degree of paranoia in that book, it's amazing. This is 92 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: David Jacobs from lecture. He begins by talking about what 93 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: abductees reports seeing aboard alien crafts. Every time a person 94 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: walks down the hallway, when they look at the various 95 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: rooms that they're walking by on their way to the 96 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: room that they're going into, what do they see in 97 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: those rooms? Tables for these on them? I mean, we 98 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: are looking at a program that is still in every 99 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 1: conceivable way for the idea of of doctu evil for 100 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: that purpose. Well, the interesting thing is because that when 101 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: they have docte evil, they have got loads of people. 102 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: Should they have got him one at a time into 103 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: the small room, all of eceptom of table. But we 104 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: see them as well with twenty people, fifty people, a 105 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: hundred people, five hundred tables in a room them with 106 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: people from them in an assembly line fashion. Yeah, and 107 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: then do let's get them out, get our end? Do it? 108 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: Get him out? Over and over again, And we think 109 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: we are seeing this twenty four hours a day, seven 110 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: days a week. We get away the month after month, 111 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: year after year, decade after decade, around the world, and 112 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: here Jacob's vision diverges from Hopkins and becomes very bleak. 113 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: So I think that this is ultimately a program of 114 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: integration into the society. The fact is, I think that 115 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: the answer to the Harem paradox is answered by the 116 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: UFO phenomenon. Where are they? They aren't here, And the 117 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: answer to the other problem of hagonomyham counter colonizes as well. 118 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: They probably are a colonized. This does appear to be 119 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: integration or colonization program. John mac the third member of 120 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: the troika, also acknowledged that creating hybrids was an integral 121 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: part of the abduction phenomenon, but he had a much 122 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: more optimistic, spiritual take on these encounters. Mac was somewhat 123 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: new aging to help there here, to help us evolve, 124 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: or something like that. Carol Rainey, a documentary filmmaker and 125 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: the ex wife of Bud Hopkins, also noted the difference 126 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: in Max's theory. He was definitely more interested in an 127 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: extraterrestrial outreach program and something that would be a welcoming 128 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: program for any beings who might approach the Earth. In 129 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: his book Abduction Human Encounters with Aliens, Mac describes eight 130 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: types of experiences that humans have with aliens. Each type 131 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: appears to be related to human growth or transformation. He 132 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: then writes, the result of all these experiences for abductive 133 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: ease is the discovery of a new and altered sense 134 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: of their place in the cosmic design, one that is 135 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: more modest, respectful, and harmonious in relation to the Earth 136 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: and its living systems. Emotions of awe, respect for the 137 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: mystery of nature, and a heightened sense of the sacredness 138 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: of the natural world are experienced along with deep sadness 139 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: about the apparent hopelessness of Earth's environmental crisis. So you 140 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: have Jacobs and Max staking out opposing ideas about the 141 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: alien's intentions, with Howkins somewhere in the middle. But the 142 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: one thing they do all agree on is that the 143 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: alien program of producing hybrids is real. Author Terry matheson 144 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: the whole notion of harvesting and creating an alien hybrid 145 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: offspring is scientifically preposterous. I mean, I've taught the scientists 146 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 1: and they just laugh, and they say that David Jacobs 147 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: is a history orient Bud Hopkins was an abstract expressionist artist. 148 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: They're not medical people. They're not scientists. No scientists would 149 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: believe anything like this was even possible, and even if 150 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 1: it were, as Whitley Streamer even pointed out in one 151 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: of his books, he said, we humans could do a 152 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: much better job in a much shorter period of time. 153 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: We could grab a few people at random and study 154 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: them and find out exactly how their systems worked and 155 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: how they reproduced, and find out virtually all was to 156 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: know about us physically in a fraction of the time. 157 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: But these aliens are spending live an out of for 158 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: over what fifty years? How did we get to this 159 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: moment where a guy like David Jacobs is claiming that 160 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: incredible numbers of people are being abducted and we are 161 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: being colonized as we speak, by human alien hybrids. What 162 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: are the incentives to create these bombastic claims? I mean, 163 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: the thing is, there's almost no money in working the 164 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: UFO research field unless you're doing regular gigs. Like standard 165 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: Stan Freedman, who was a friend of mine. He knew 166 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: how to market himself and he got gigs all over 167 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: the world. Actually he kept a modest income coming in. 168 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: Bud didn't do that. The way he worked was to 169 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: have a really strong concept in Missing Time, and then 170 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: he was only interested in cases after that that broke 171 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: new ground. Missing Time was his first book published in 172 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: In it, he presented the idea that there was a 173 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: consistency among alien abduction claims, they granted them legitimacy and 174 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: provided a basic common narrative. Six years later he published Intruders. 175 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: The case in Intruders of all sorts of new ground 176 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: in terms of him claiming to have discovered patterns. I 177 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: guess in that case it would be the breeding pattern 178 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: of abductees who would feel their eggs had been taken 179 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: or the sperm had been harvested, and years later they'll 180 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: be taken aboard a craft and they will see what 181 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: they believe are their children, half alien a half human. 182 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: You know, it began to get so weird to me 183 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: that I would push back even more on how that 184 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: knowledge came to be. Carol and Budd contemplated writing a 185 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: book together. It would be based on her science background 186 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: and research into how cutting edge technologies might illuminate the 187 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: UFO phenomenon. We went to talk to a couple of 188 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: editors at publishing houses. This must have been the early 189 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: two thousand's. They said, don't come back unless you have 190 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: a brand new, never seen before idea for a U 191 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: a phone book. So the push is always for new, bigger, better, 192 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: more outlandish. And I would say that Dave and Bud 193 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: definitely delivered on that in each of their books. This 194 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: same logic applied to the lecture circuit and UFO conferences 195 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: where Hopkins would present cases. People don't want to come 196 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: there and you know, pay to hear the same thing 197 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: they've heard before. He was wanting cases that would further 198 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: develop the narrative, or, as he might say, cases that 199 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: would illuminate it further. This search for new cases that 200 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: would advance the field led Hopkins to a woman whose 201 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: story he would promote as the most complex ever investigated. 202 00:13:52,920 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: After the break, strange arrivals will return in a moment. 203 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: The search for new, bigger, more outlandish cases reached its 204 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: apex when Bud Hopkins was contacted by a woman he 205 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: identified by the pseudonym Linda Cortill. She had come across 206 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: Hopkins book intruders in a bookstore, and it resurfaced hidden 207 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: memories that she herself had been abducted from her Manhattan apartment. 208 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: The case was unveiled at the Landmark Abduction Study Conference 209 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: held at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. This was organized 210 00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: by Detroita. These guys still eve that they finally had 211 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: all their ducks in a row and had lined up 212 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: all their proof, and they had very basically, they invited 213 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: the world in the invited journalists, They invited the different 214 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: organizations that even invited the skeptics. And this was where 215 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: they first announced or debuted, if you will, that big case, 216 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: the case in all cases, which was the levitated Linda 217 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: Case Linda, he was saying, Linda Courtill. She's a woman 218 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: who lived in Manhattan near the Brooklyn Bridge, and supposedly 219 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: the aliens abducted her outer window. From Carol Rainey's documentary 220 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: and Progress, here's Bud Hopkins on the Brooklyn Bridge describing 221 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: what happened. I'm standing at exactly the spot where this 222 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: very strange event was seen on at three am really 223 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: on November thirty nine. Woman is driving from Brooklyn to 224 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: New York right down here in the outer lanes, with 225 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: car engine died. The lights were now and she looked 226 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: over to this building. One of the distance was a 227 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: little pointed roof, and at that point she saw a 228 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: burst of light as a UFO hovering only a few 229 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: feet above it turned out all of its lights. Two 230 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: small figures blow her and one above her. The light 231 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: was intense. The woman was terrified and thought they must 232 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: be making a movie. This is a film of some sort, 233 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: and they the figures floated up into the UFO, and 234 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: then the UFO changed its lights, zoomed out across the 235 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: river and across the bridge. It disappeared, and the woman's 236 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: car lights and engines started back up again, but this 237 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: is the way it started for her that night. This 238 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: is just the beginning. You can easily do an entire 239 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: series on this story, so I'll try to lay out 240 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: the basics. There's plenty on the internet if you want 241 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: a more complete picture. I'm not going to evaluate the claims. 242 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: I just want to give a sense of how wild 243 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: this story gets. The early morning event was apparently witnessed 244 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: by about two dozen people whose cars had stalled on 245 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Bridge. Among them were two men named Richard 246 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: and Dan. Their last names have never been revealed. They 247 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: were officers in the New York City Police Department or 248 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: possibly the Secret Service or even the CIA. It's not 249 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: entirely clear. Regardless, there was a third person in the car, 250 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: an important diplomat. They were escorting him down to a 251 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: heliport in Lower Manhattan that night, and their car was 252 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: stalled by the UFOs power train. A person whose name 253 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: but didn't use was Perez the quay Are, the Secretary 254 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: of the United Nations at the time. This was the 255 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: story's biggest bombshell. Linda Cortillas abduction was actually witnessed by 256 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: Javier Perez de Quare, a Peruvian diplomat who was the 257 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: Secretary General of the United Nations. From later, Richard would 258 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: tell Hopkins that he and Quare were also both actually abducted. 259 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: Are not surprisingly disputes this. In a note fact to 260 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: the PBS program Nova, which was doing an episode on 261 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: hopkins abduction investigations, he wrote, I cannot but strongly deny 262 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: the claim that I have had an abduction experience at 263 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: any time. On several occasions, when questioned about the matter, 264 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 1: I reiterated that these allegations were completely false, and I 265 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: hope that this statement will definitely put an end to 266 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: these unfounded rumors. Things got still stranger from there. Richard 267 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 1: and Dan became cessed with Linda. Twice they kidnapped her 268 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: off the streets of New York. The second time, Dan 269 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: tried to drown her in the Atlantic Ocean and might 270 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: have succeeded if Richard hadn't stopped him. Richard, you see, 271 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: was in love with her. There's plenty more in this vein. 272 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: Quare gave Cortill's son an antique diving helmet as a gift. 273 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: Linda found out that her red blood cells, or some 274 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: of them at least, were immortal. It's worth noting that 275 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: Hopkins never met Richard or Dan, communicating with them only 276 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: by phone or letter. But despite the sensational nature of 277 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: this story, Hopkins apparently held back even stranger material that 278 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: he thought might undermine Linda's credibility. There was so much 279 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 1: cherry picking that Bud did. Let's say Linda meeting with 280 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: the Pope and the Pope knew all about her story 281 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: and abducted her in a in one of the popemobiles 282 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: or a black car to take her down to wherever 283 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: he was staying when he came to visit in yes 284 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: the early nineties, but did not include that story because 285 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: it was pretty over the top that Linda Cortilla was 286 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: invited by the Pope to come be the ambassador to 287 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: extraterrestrials and that she would have to live at the 288 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: Vatican and leave New York City. Blah blah blah. It's 289 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: hard to imagine that Hopkins didn't harbor doubts about at 290 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,719 Speaker 1: least parts of this story. The fact that he withheld 291 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: potentially embarrassing information seems to confirm this. It's the kind 292 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: of incredible story that requires strong evidence if you want 293 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: people to take it seriously. So why invest so much 294 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: in Linda Cortilla. He wanted so badly to prove what 295 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: he believed to be happening. He wanted to prove that 296 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: it was actually happening, and that he had evidence. This 297 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: general credulous nous lead to more high profile embarrassments. A 298 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: two thousand and one Time magazine article on John Mac 299 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: featured the story of Donna Bassett, a Boston based writer. 300 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: She made up a multi generational history of UFO interactions, 301 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: sent it to Mac, and was brought in for hypnotic regression. 302 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: She said that she faked a trance, that Mac asked 303 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: her leading questions that she answered to his satisfaction. From 304 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: the Time magazine article, among other recollections, she told of 305 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 1: an encounter with John F. Kennedy and Nikita Khrushchoff on 306 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: board a spaceship during the Cuban missile crisis. Bassett said 307 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: Kruschof was crying and that I sat in his lap 308 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 1: and I put my arms around his net and I 309 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: told him it would be okay. Hearing her tale, Mac 310 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: became so excited that he leaned on the bed too 311 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: heavily and it collapsed. Hopkins, too fell prey to hoaxer's 312 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: A man named Jim Mortarello claimed to have been admitted 313 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: to an emergency room with injuries from a harrowing abduction. 314 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 1: He also convinced Hopkins that a group of doctors and 315 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: Upstate New York, We're going to conduct a study of 316 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: patients under their care who showed physical signs of abduction experiences. 317 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: This was not true, nor were any of his other claims, 318 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: including that he had been the marketing director for the 319 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: Japanese electronics company had Tachi. In the end, his lives 320 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: became too much for the board of advisors that in 321 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: theory oversaw Hopkins research for advisors resigned and those that 322 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: remained forced Hopkins to post a letter acknowledging Mortarello's deception 323 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: of the Linda Cortilla case. Schaefer says, just obvious, made 324 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: up stories. It really had backfired on them in a 325 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: big way. This story just grew so huge and so preposterous, 326 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: and they basically had left the store on this thing. 327 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: From that point on, it was pretty hard for anyone 328 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: to take the Troy get too terribly seriously. The hoaxes 329 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: that followed cemented this judgment. Carol believes that hopkins refusal 330 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: to allow oversight from the board of advisors was a 331 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: critical component of his eventual loss of credibility. It's just 332 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: that but had a very strong tool he might have used, 333 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: which was the Intruders Foundation Advisory Board, and they could 334 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: have prevented him from going so far into the weeds 335 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 1: with the Linda Cortilla case, with the Jim more Laro case. 336 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: That more of advisors was amazing group of very diverse people, 337 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:11,959 Speaker 1: but smart people. A medical writer and engineer, someone in marketing, 338 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: a musician and astronomer. They were strong, smart people who 339 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,239 Speaker 1: had hoped that Bud was going to share what he 340 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: learned about how to research this phenomenon. So there were 341 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: people with a broad enough background that if he had 342 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: allowed them to guide his research, it would have been 343 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: so much better for everybody. But he would not permit 344 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: any oversight of his cases, and of course Dave Jacobs 345 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: didn't either. Each of those two men worked entirely on 346 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 1: their own. Occasionally they would have someone come sit in 347 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: on a session or two, but that wasn't necessarily the 348 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: standard way they did things when that person was there watching. 349 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: It's just a missed opportunity and a sadness because after 350 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: a few other hoaxes, came down the pike. The advisory 351 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: committee just said, we can't support you going around and 352 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: speaking at conferences about cases that we believe are not valid, 353 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: that we believe our hoaxes, and we would like to 354 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 1: have one or two of our advisory board members work 355 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: with you on cases. Bud was only willing to give 356 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: them access to the tapes, but he would take a 357 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: trip to the museum while they listened to it. In 358 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: Hopkins died from cancer. John mac was struck and killed 359 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: by a drunk driver in two thousand and four while 360 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: he was in London to give a lecture. David Jacobs 361 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: is still alive and apparently continuing abduction research. He did 362 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: not respond to my requests for an interview. I asked 363 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: Carol what Hopkins believed the aliens wanted from us. I 364 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: found her answer very poignant, and it made me think 365 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: of how Betty Andreas inframed her abduction narrative to reflect 366 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: her personal beliefs. The beings who were coming to us 367 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: either needed our resources, which were Bud certainly believed were 368 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: our humanist resources, our ability to be empathetic, our ability 369 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: to love our children and to love other people in 370 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 1: our lives, and to take care of them. Bud was 371 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: a humanist, abub all things. He really was, and that's 372 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: the quality I loved in him. I think about Hopkins 373 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: an artist, looking at the way that technology was changing 374 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: our world, making it into a colder, more dispassionate place, 375 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: seemingly eroding the prominence of art and empathy and our 376 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: humanistic culture. It's not hard to envision his concept of 377 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: the abduction phenomenon as a kind of metaphor for the 378 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: fear that this new reality might have provoked in him. 379 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: I don't believe that humans are being abducted by the 380 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: thousands and used to create hybrids, but I do find 381 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: this fear of the way our culture is changing very reasonable. 382 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: With the Troika now largely out of the picture, what 383 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: is the state of abduction research today? What does science 384 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 1: tell us about the difference between the psychology of people 385 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: prone to belief and people prone to skepticism? How should 386 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: we evaluate extraordinary claims next time on the season finale 387 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: of Strange Arrivals. Strange Arrivals is a production of I 388 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky. This 389 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: episode was written and hosted by Toby Bowl and produced 390 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: by Miranda Hawkins and Josh Thane, with executive producers Alex Williams, 391 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Aaron Manky. Betty Hill was portrayed by 392 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: Gina Rickike. Barney Hill was portrayed by Jason Williams. Special 393 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: thanks to the Miln's Special Collections and Archives at the 394 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: University of New Hampshire, John Horrigan, w y C h 395 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 1: A M in Norwich, Connecticut, John White, and David O'Leary, 396 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: the executive producer of the History Channel's dramatic series Project 397 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: blue Book. Learn more about the show over at Grimm 398 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: and Mile dot com. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, 399 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 400 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.