WEBVTT - Selects: How Police Lineups Work 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.560 Hey, everybody, it's me Josham. For this week's select I've 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:08.399 chosen our twenty eighteen episode how police Lineups Work. It's 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:10.200 one of those things that you just kind of know 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:12.680 about and then you find out about it and you 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:15.600 say to yourself, how are we doing this. It's a 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.480 great episode. I think you'll enjoy it. So sit back, relax, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:20.400 and get ready for police Lineups. 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:32.320 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.440 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:41.440 Charles w Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry out there outside the fishbowl, 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:45.120 and also there's guest producer Noel and our pal Ben. 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:48.360 But yeah, I'm in the room this time, man, Yeah, 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:50.319 on the mic. Thanks for having us. 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:53.680 This is way better than that time you have me 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:55.080 on the April Fools episode. 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:57.520 Well, I'm glad you brought that up because I may 0:00:57.600 --> 0:00:59.840 remember Ben from that. I think it was two thousand 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.080 thirteen or fifteen something, ungodly time ago. 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:04.319 It's my replacement. 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.000 Yeah, it was an April Fool's joke for the three 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.200 D printing episode. So this is your second time on 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:09.640 the show. 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:12.759 Yeah, the Internet shredg you Ben was it were they 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:14.360 were you like a target of abuse. 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.360 I want to thank everybody for the very polite emails, 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:19.640 and as we could tell, thankfully, Chuck is fine. 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:21.800 Yeah, they took it easy on them. Okay, we have 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:24.240 very nice listeners, you know. And then Nol, this might 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:26.520 be the first time you're ever speaking on the podcast, 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:28.880 even though you've guest produced it like a million times. 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:30.680 I think I may have mumbled something in the background 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:36.640 the time. It really wow wow, Josh. So we're having 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:37.320 you two on. 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.520 Let's cut, let's get down of business, because you two 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:45.520 have a podcast together, right, Uh, Noel, you also run 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:47.200 mini Crush movie Crush. 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.200 It's true. Yeah, you're also in a real world's colliding 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:50.600 right now. 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.160 Right, there's a lot I'm going over them all. You're 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:55.240 on stuff they don't want you to know. But you 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.800 two Ben and Knowl have come together and made ridiculous history, 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:00.000 which is awesome. 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:01.680 Oh yeah, that's right. 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:03.040 We're just missing God. 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:07.360 I'm starting to sweat. But you guys are on ridiculous 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:09.959 history together. We are, Yeah, tell us about that. 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:17.840 Uh So history is full of these cartoonish bizarre events 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:22.200 often not covered in your typical history class. 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:23.880 Sounds familiar, right. 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:31.960 Because for one reason or another, people thought, that's no way, 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:35.680 that didn't really happen. The first recorded instance of a 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:38.639 mooning did not result in the death of hundreds of people. 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:41.600 It's surely not, surely not, but it did. 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.000 It did, It did, And surely the US government did 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:46.240 not have a plan to shoot a nuclear missile at 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:46.640 the moon. 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:50.000 Right, that was just a Mister Shows sketch. Surely not, 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.200 but she also was. It was kind of parallel thinking. 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:57.240 Is the Mister Show sketch happened before this story became declassified? 0:02:57.400 --> 0:02:57.839 Is that right? 0:02:57.880 --> 0:02:58.079 It is? 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:00.600 Nine yep. 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:05.079 So our continuing mission with ridiculous history, not to sound. 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:07.079 Too star treky about it. 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:11.320 Is to find those moments, the bizarre people, places, and 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:15.160 things throughout the span of human civilization that at least 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:17.200 crack the both of us up on. 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:18.160 A continual basis. 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:21.560 And sometimes we do have to stop recording just for 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:24.160 a second because we're so tickled. 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.880 Do you really, Yeah, Wow, that's that's actually high quality, 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:29.600 mainly because we tickle each other. 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.320 I got to physically. Yeah, that's cheating, man. You're making 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:36.240 it sound so serious. It's actually a lot of fun. 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:36.720 It is. 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.600 It's a fun show. Right, Oh yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:41.760 I mean I'm giving been a hard time, but yeah, 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.960 that's definitely like we touch on from time to time. 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:47.320 It it'll go into a heavier territory. 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.040 Like, for example, we did an episode about how women 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.200 in Kansas in the nineteen twenties were imprisoned in labor 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:57.800 camps for having STDs. What that certainly falls under ridiculous 0:03:57.840 --> 0:03:59.680 not exactly fun or funny. 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:03.400 Right haha, ridiculous. So it's it's it's all of those things. 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:05.760 Some of them are you know, crack you up hilarious 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:09.960 moments like Napoleon Bonaparte getting attacked by bunnies or you know, 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.440 the aforementioned SDT labor camps, or. 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:17.760 The racist special Olympics that were held here in the States. 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:21.760 And we're a complete, well to borrow phrase we use 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:23.800 on the show, a complete ship show. 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:26.280 So so wait a minute, I think you are, like, 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.360 you need to name the state that hosted that. 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:34.240 Oh it was Saint Louis. Yeah, Saint Louis. 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:37.760 And it's because the World's Fair was happening in Saint 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:40.440 Louis and they were going to have it in Chicago. 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:42.440 But the people hosting the World's Fair said, if you 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:44.960 don't do your Olympics as part of the World's Fair, 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:46.599 we're going to totally blow you out of the water 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:47.800 with how awesome our World's Fair is. 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:49.120 And no one's going to come to your Olympics. 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.359 And scared them in the early days of like, you know, 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:53.600 not the earliest days of the Olympics, when they brought 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.760 it back like in the you know, it was not 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:57.599 ancient Rome. 0:04:57.839 --> 0:04:59.279 It was not in fact ancient Rome. 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.200 And it was also it was not a good example 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:08.360 of the Olympics either, because the white supremacists who were 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:12.720 in charge of the whole shebang decided that this would 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:17.280 be the perfect time to prove their cockamamie ideas. 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.480 Of like eugenics, ideas of kind of like white superiority, 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.160 and like they would have indigenous people competing in these 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:25.680 Olympic events. Of course, they didn't teach them how to 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.480 you know, do the events, so they didn't just automatically 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.200 know how to pull vault or throw a javelin or whatever. 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.960 And when supremacists can ruin anything, anything they put their 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.080 hands on, they really can't just turns to poop. 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:41.960 Yeah, we are doing an episode on flatulence later, so 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:42.960 stay tuned with you that there. 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.359 So before we give everything away, you guys, tell everyone 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:48.360 where they can find ridiculous history and win. 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:52.720 You can find ridiculous history at our website. 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.159 It's ridiculous History show. 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:59.479 I think so the website, guys definitely can't prepared for this. 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:03.479 I've got a stack of notes right here here, yeah. 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:04.480 Rolling back. 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:06.560 So you can find us on Apple Podcast, you find 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:08.760 us on Spotify. You can find us wherever you find 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:12.919 your favorite shows, like stuff you should know or stuff 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.279 they'll want you to know, or I should I list 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.160 the entire pantheon of all the shows we have. It's 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:20.880 too many at this point, but but yes, you can 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:24.360 find us in all of those places. We also have 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:28.440 a community page that we're really proud of and really 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:31.839 happy with, called Ridiculous Historians on Facebook. 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.520 Taking a total cue from the cisk army. Yeah nice. 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:38.320 Well, First of all, thank you for all of the 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:40.560 flattery that you've been heaping on us for the last 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:43.000 few minutes. It's much appreciated. But also thank you for 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:44.640 coming by. Appreciate it, guys. 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:46.640 Thank you guys for having yes yank so much. 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:48.200 Let's do this every week. 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:50.640 That might be a let me check the sketch. 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:57.760 I gotta tell you, I love those guys, but I'm 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:00.960 glad to get out of that that new studio box. 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:03.920 Oh yeah, it's like a Fema trailer man. It's formaldehyde 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:07.279 wafting off slowly poisoning us. It is still off gassing. 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:11.040 It feels like, yeah, big time. It's in my hair, yeah, 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:12.320 which is now falling out. 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:15.960 We're in bad shape. Well before, I like what you're wearing. 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:16.960 By the way, thank you. 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:19.680 I spilled a tremendous amount of coffee on myself and 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:21.520 luckily I had a bunch of samples of our new 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:22.040 T shirt. 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:25.480 Yeah, and this is not a just to plug everyone. 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:29.360 Josh is literally wearing a Lewis the Child Skeptic T 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:31.960 shirt from the Stuff you Should Know store. Yeah, because 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:35.480 they sent us every shirt. I'm like, oh, great, to 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.560 the guy who has one hundred T shirts, here's twenty more. 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:41.360 But they are pretty cool. I'm pretty happy with. 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:42.320 This, Like, yeah, that's cool. 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:43.040 The size of it. 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.960 Look at the size. It's a perfect size. It's not 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:48.600 so big that it wraps around and gets all mangled 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.560 by my love handles. But it's also not so small 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:55.000 that it looks like, you know, a caved in chest. 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:56.840 You know what I mean. 0:07:57.600 --> 0:07:59.480 I didn't remember that reference though. 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.880 I didn't either like they listened to the Pie Piper episode. 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:05.080 Oh there you go. 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:08.160 That sounds like a you thing, Yeah, Josh, But. 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.000 It was just an offhanded comment I made. Now it's 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:11.960 a T shirt I'm wearing, which is I love. It 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:13.840 makes a pretty great time to be alive. 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:17.000 By the way, I need to give a shout out 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:22.120 to Brittany Schiff. Brittany Schiff sent this idea to us. 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.600 Oh okay, great, And the reason, you know, we don't 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.120 often take well that's not true. We kind of keep 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:32.480 a kitty of listener suggestions, but we don't often like 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.720 do one the next week and then shout out the person. Sure, 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:40.199 but I thought we had fully exhausted our Crime and 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:41.160 Punishment series. 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:41.600 Nope. 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:45.000 So I was delighted that Brittany Shiff sent this in 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.320 and I was like, why haven't we done police line up? 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:50.160 I don't know, it's a great question. 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:52.240 Was just sitting there, yeah, waiting. 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:56.080 Yep. The only other one that's left is what kind 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:57.560 of shoes detectives wear? 0:08:58.440 --> 0:08:58.880 That is? 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:04.560 That's the last one? You know what means is this? Yeah, 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.120 that's gum shoe or crape sold I think. 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:09.720 You knew that, yeah, but I don't know how it 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:10.880 relates to cops. 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:13.360 I guess they wore those because they were so comfortable. 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:18.560 Cops are always walking around walking, yeah, you know, but 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:22.400 sometimes when they're walking, they're actually out on the street 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:26.840 looking for people who resemble a suspect that they have 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:31.200 in the jailhouse. And they say, hey, you come on 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:34.880 over here, how'd you like to make ten bucks? And 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:38.800 the person says exactly how copper and the cop says, 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:42.000 by standing in is what we call a filler in 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.080 a police lineup. 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:46.559 Or they do like Emer Simpson and when they're like 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:48.360 a boat raffle that they said he had to come 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:49.160 down to the police station. 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.680 Yeah he won a boat. Yeah, and then they beat 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:56.480 him merciless for like parking unpaid parking tickets. 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:00.360 Also shout out to Beth at Shuster, who wrote this 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:05.920 article in the NIJ Journal the National Institute of Justice. 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.640 I believe so, is that right? Yeah, they're pretty much 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:12.800 committed to keeping people from being wrongly convicted. So I 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:14.680 would guess the JAY stands for justice. 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:17.559 Yeah, and this is a good start. And we had 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.680 some other stuff we added to it. But thank you Ms. Schuster, 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:22.800 yeah for your work. 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:27.480 Yep. Well, I already led into the episode and it 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:31.280 didn't take, So let me try again. This nij article 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:35.640 you sent calls out a dude named Jerry Miller, who 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.240 back in nineteen eighty one was twenty two years old, 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:42.240 I believe, and Jerry Miller had a particularly bad day 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:47.000 when he was arrested and he was charged with robbing, kidnapping, 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:51.440 and raping a woman. Yeah, and he got convicted. He 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:56.080 was convicted because two people, two eyewitnesses, saw him in 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:59.199 a lineup picked him out, and then later at trial 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:03.160 the victim said, maybe that's him, maybe it's not, but 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:06.240 who cares. There's two eyewitnesses that picked the schmoe out 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:11.120 of a lineup. He's done. Yeah, he did twenty four 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.400 years in prison. And you may notice from the tone 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:17.040 that I'm using here he was wrongfully convicted. 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:17.679 Yeah. 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.480 He actually got out of prison and was living life 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:25.880 for leased on parole, wearing an ankle bracelet, a monitor constantly. 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:26.880 As a registered sex offender. 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:32.360 Right, and then finally I think, oh, I'm not quite sure. Oh, 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:34.959 two thousand and seven. In two thousand and seven, as 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:37.280 part of the Innocence Project, Yeah, which we've done an 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:38.360 episode on with. 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:43.240 Yeah, that lady what is her name? 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:45.080 Oh, Hauleen. 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:47.640 I don't want to say Laurville, but it's definitely not 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:49.440 Paula is on. 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:50.240 Paula is on. 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:51.240 Thank you, Jerry. 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.800 Yeah, I wanted to say Pauli Shore so bad. I 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:59.000 just knew it was wrong. But we did Incent right, 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:03.680 we did it Innocence Project episode And under the Innocence Project, 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:09.720 Jerry Miller was exonerated through DNA evidence. He incontrovertibly did 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.440 not do this and lost twenty four years of his 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.840 life because of flawed eyewitness testimony. 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.000 Yeah, and so you know, this is all about police 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:22.839 lineups and more about I mean, we'll tell you how 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.520 they work in a general sense, but this is sort 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:30.160 of more about how you know, it's such an imperfect system. 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.520 But sort of the takeaway from all of this that 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:35.520 we're about to go over with all the studies and 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:39.080 the trying different things, is kind of like, you know, 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:43.160 it's an imperfect system and we can try and craft 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.559 it the best way we can, but human memory is imperfect. 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:50.240 Identifying people in lineups is imperfect, right, and we're just 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:52.680 it's kind of the best we got right now. 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.120 Right, Well, a lot of people are like, get rid 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:59.840 of eyewitness testimony really all together, yes, all together. Humans 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:04.480 suck at eyewitness testimony. And there's a lot of reasons 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.760 why it's not like people are out there like I 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:09.480 want to have me a bad guy, show me a lineup. 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:11.679 I'm gonna pick one of those guys out. They're not 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:16.000 doing that. They're subject to basically the way our brains 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:21.359 are wired. We don't walk around videotaping everything that we see, 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:26.640 you know, we get constantly bombarded with sensory information, and 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.680 under normal circumstances, you see a stranger on the street, 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.160 you just see there's another human. I've identified them as 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:35.800 not a threat and keep walking by it. If that 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:41.120 person turned out to be accused of a crime or 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.320 perpetrated a crime, and you were brought in to say 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.880 was this the person you saw? Your brain is going 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:51.360 to try to reconstruct what little pieces of memory it 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.240 formed of that person. And there's a lot of things, 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.920 a lot of factors that are involved that can make 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.000 that really difficult task even harder. 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:06.280 Yeah, Like I am someone who has told myself Chuck 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.160 pay attention. Like, if you're ever in a situation like 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.959 pay attention, try and collect yourself and try and remember 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.439 a few really good details about the car or the person. 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:19.320 So like this is on my mind. 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:23.120 And I actually had a situation when I lived in 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:25.920 LA happened to me where I had to go through 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.720 a police lineup and I failed. 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:31.520 Oh really, was the suspect there? 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:32.000 No? 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.960 Well no, here's here's the quick version. Is I was 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.320 in a hit and run. This lady, these two lady, 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:42.480 these two younger girls, they were probably teenagers, hit me 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:43.720 from behind. 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:43.920 In my car. 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:47.400 I stopped my car starting to get out, and they 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.360 take off, so it's a hit and run. I chase them, 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:51.600 which is you should not do. 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.520 No. Were you shooting into the air again to slow down, 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.320 trying to shoot out their tires? 0:14:58.000 --> 0:14:58.160 No? 0:14:58.240 --> 0:14:59.840 But I did chase them because I was so mad 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.120 and you're adrenaline just shoots through the roof when something 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:06.000 like that happens, so immediately you're just not yourself and 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:08.880 like recording details. So I was trying to catch up 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:11.800 to get a license plate. I saw that they went 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:14.080 down the street that I knew was a dead end. 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:16.000 Like I got them now. 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:18.480 It wasn't a cul de sac, but it functioned like 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:20.760 a cul de sac. So I stopped where I was 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.440 got out of the car. Sure enough, twenty seconds later, 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:28.240 they come houling but back toward me, and the look 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.520 on their faces was like you know, oh, snap, there's 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:33.920 the guy. And they just sped right past me. And 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:36.960 I saw their faces as they sped past me in 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:42.440 their car. The cops found the car, found the people, 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.080 and they're like, we didn't do that, and so. 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:47.680 Who are these girls? These teenagers? 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.080 Well that's the long and short of it. Is all 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:51.160 you have to do and something like that. 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.080 I say, didn't do it, and if I can't pick 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:55.760 you out, then you get away. 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:58.320 And they showed me pictures. 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:02.520 Of like, you know, these were like teenage young teenage 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:07.160 Hispanic women. They showed me probably probably fifteen pictures and 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.280 said can you identify them? I was like no, it 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.520 was a month ago. They sped past me for a second, 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:16.760 like I couldn't even hazard a guess, and I didn't 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:17.360 want to do that. 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:19.680 You know, well that's very sensible of you. 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:21.560 Yeah, I just didn't want to take a stab at it. 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:22.800 So I was like, no, I have no idea, and 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:25.200 they're basically like sorry, They said they didn't do it. 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:25.520 Wow. 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:27.320 It's like, but you have the car. 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.160 And it's damaged, and like none of that matters. They're like, no, 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:31.680 not if you can't identify. 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:32.920 I mean, I could see that. They could be like, oh, yeah, 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.040 that happened some other times, I know, and some other 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:35.600 hit and run. 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:38.440 I mean, but yeah. 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.640 The long story short though, is I'm someone who has 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.280 tried to tell myself to react in the right ways, 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:48.800 and I couldn't tell them much beyond like the color 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:50.320 of the car and sort of what it looked. 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:51.320 Like because you were seeing red. 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:56.560 Because you're right, that's that our bodies are not prime 0:16:56.680 --> 0:17:00.840 to form memories. It's not where our energy. It's more 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:03.320 like getting away or shooting out the tires of a 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.200 car that just hit and ran. Right, But what you 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:10.200 did with that lineup is the other side of the coin. 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:15.360 The other problem with lineups is or eyewitness testimony from lineups, 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:19.040 is that sometimes people pick out people who are innocent, 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.800 and other times people fail to pick out the people 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:24.400 who are actually the perpetrators. 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:24.879 Yeah. 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.040 So it's like you said, they're very They're very flawed. 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:31.320 It's a flawed system. The problem is is the wrong 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.560 people can go to jail and the people who actually 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:36.719 did it can get away with it. So that's an 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:42.159 extremely flawed system. And when something that important is on 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.880 the table, then it needs to be fixed. And there's 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:48.119 a lot of people looking into how it can be fixed, 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:50.800 but we're not there yet by any stretch. 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.080 No, And here's a stat you were talking about the 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:58.320 DNA exoneration, seventy five percent of the first one and 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:03.680 eighty three exonerations in the US were wrongfully convicted because 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.000 of eyewitness testimony and police lineups. 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:07.560 Say it again, seventy. 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.840 Five seventy five percent of the first one hundred and 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:14.719 eighty three. So, like, the Innocence Project is basically like 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:20.679 a pilot study to show through DNA exoneration all the 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:24.320 ways that we wrongfully convict people. And what is coming 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:28.000 to the front is eyewitness testimony. 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:31.480 Yeah, and at the basis of that is the police lineup, right. 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.520 And one other thing that's that's problematic with the eyewitness 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:38.080 testimony is if you want to wow a jury, bring 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.040 out an eyewitness who seems totally sure that what they 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:44.159 saw or that they saw the person they're pointing to 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:46.000 and the defendants. 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.399 Table yeah, or that that dramatic moment it's like a 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.680 movie trope. Now, you know, is the person in this room. 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:54.560 Right, Let the record show that this witness is pointing 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:55.600 at the defendant, right. 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:56.040 Yeah. 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.480 So the problem is it has a huge impact, but 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:04.240 it's also so really cruddy wit, really cruddy evidence. There's 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:05.960 this guy he he had a great quote. 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:06.960 He says that. 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:13.760 Eyewitness testimony is a very unusual, complex kind of trace evidence, 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:18.000 and it's difficult to recover, easy to contaminate, and very 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:20.879 hard to handle. Yeah, and that just there's no better 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:22.959 description of eyewitness testimony. 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.879 If I was ever in court and someone identified me 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:29.600 from the witness stand, I would do that thing where 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:33.080 you look at behind you when they pointed at you, 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:35.000 just be like, I think they're talking about that guy 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:37.840 behind me, and they would say no, and they would 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.280 point again, and I would move a little bit more and. 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.960 Be like, this is this witness is clearly disturbed. 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:44.680 And then if that, if that didn't work, you would 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:46.480 escalate to I'm rubber and you're glued. 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:48.480 Yeah, that usually works, right. 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.720 So there's a couple of other things that makes eyewitness 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:58.919 testimony problematic, Chuck. In addition to not being like human 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.320 video recorders. 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:02.960 There are human vs. 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:07.439 There are. There are circumstances, especially surrounding a crime, that 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:10.040 can make it really difficult to remember. If you're in 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.040 a fight or flight situation, yeah, you're not forming memories. 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:18.040 If there's a weapon, there are people tend to focus 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:18.639 on the weapon. 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:19.960 Sure you. 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.200 Me was mugged once and the opposite happened to her. 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:25.920 She remember what the person looked like, but she didn't 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:27.800 even remember that there was a weapon. And her friends 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:30.520 are like, yeah, there was a gun. Interesting, Yeah, and 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:32.320 she went to a lineup and like picked the guy 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.240 out and yummy's bulletproof, so she is, So she's like, 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:37.840 take your gun and shove it. I'm not even going 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:38.800 to recognize it. 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:39.800 No, but that makes sense. 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:41.760 If someone pulls a gun on you, or has a 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:46.000 switchblade or some other kind of creepy weapon, the human 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.119 instinct is to focus your attention on that thing pointed 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:49.359 at you. 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:53.920 Yeah, and apparently people can really describe the weapon, right, 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:56.720 But you're focusing on the weapon. You're not focused on 0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:58.960 the person who is holding the weapon typically. 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:00.800 Which helps a little bit, but not as much as 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:01.280 the face. 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:05.920 Right. And then another problem is if you are say 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.960 an Hispanic dude, and you're a witness to a crime, 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:13.480 and it's a white guy who's the perpetrator, You're going 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:17.320 to have a tremendous amount of difficulty picking that white 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:20.280 guy out, as sad as it is to say, from 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:23.840 a lineup of other white guys. Yeah, because eyewitness testimony 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:28.680 that crosses race or ethnicities is known to be very 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:33.200 unreliable because it's just more difficult for somebody of an 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:38.639 ethnicity or a race to separate or identify people of 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:40.200 another ethnicity or race. 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:42.359 Yeah, and I don't think it's the case where people 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:44.320 are like, all white people look the same to me, 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:49.199 it's just weird brain science, right, you know, right, you 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:50.720 just have a harder time. 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:55.320 From way back when we were basically tuktook and Tuktok 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:58.000 lived with fifteen other people that look just like him 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:02.040 because they'd all been inbreeding for generations and generations, and 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:04.560 they had to be on the lookout for another group 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:07.840 of people who've been inbreeding for generations and generations that 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:11.320 wanted their jackfruit tree that they live by. 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:13.280 What's jack fruit? Oh? 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:16.080 That word jack fruits, the big huge thing, the big 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:20.240 huge one. Yeah, it actually makes a killer barbecue vehicle. 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.679 Uhreded like shredded pork vegan stand in. 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:27.159 Oh okay, it's really good. Gotcha, gotcha? 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:29.680 All right, let's take a break and we'll talk about 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:33.600 the fundamentals of the run of the mill police lineup. 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:33.840 Right after this. 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:56.600 All right, so, run of the mill police lineups. I 0:22:56.640 --> 0:23:00.840 mentioned that before we left. Everyone's seen movies and TV shows, 0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:04.439 and it's not too far off. Actually, I mean, there 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:07.160 are a couple of ways you can do it. There 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:10.040 are lineups where you'd look at someone in front of 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:13.399 your face, and then there are lineups like I had 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:16.639 in La where I look at photographs the ones. You know, 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:18.800 it's way more sexy for a TV show or a 0:23:18.880 --> 0:23:21.679 movie to line them up in the traditional. 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:25.199 Way, right, it's extraordinarily sexy, like a live police lineup 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:26.080 like you see on TV. 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:30.439 Sure, and then they're the simultaneous or sequential. There's a 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:32.320 lot of debate, which we'll get into in a minute, 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:35.120 about which is best. To me, it's pretty obvious that 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:38.040 sequential is best. Simultaneous is the one that you see 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:41.399 on TV. They line up six or seven dudes or 0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:45.920 ladies and you identify them usually, well, it depends. We'll 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:50.080 get into the fillers or the foils, but only usually 0:23:50.080 --> 0:23:52.800 only one of those people is a suspect. 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:54.920 In like the best ideal version of it. 0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:55.280 Right. 0:23:55.640 --> 0:23:58.280 Then there's sequential, and that's when they bring out one 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:01.200 person at a time and bring out like seven guys, 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:02.679 just one at a time, and you say, you know, 0:24:02.760 --> 0:24:04.600 let me know at the end of this which one 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:05.399 you think it was, or. 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:07.399 If it's a photo lineup, they show you one photo 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:07.840 at a time. 0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:08.360 Exactly. 0:24:08.400 --> 0:24:10.720 Yeah, I agree with you. I think sequential is head 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:14.240 and shoulders the better one of the of the two. 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:15.120 Yeah. 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:17.600 And here's the final little piece of how it can 0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:22.080 vary is whether or not the administrator, that the person 0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:25.639 that's in charge of administrating the lineup knows who the 0:24:25.680 --> 0:24:26.760 purp is or not. 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:28.520 Yeah, that's a big one, man. 0:24:28.600 --> 0:24:30.520 So it's either double blind, which means that they don't 0:24:30.520 --> 0:24:33.440 even know. And to me, it seems obvious that that's 0:24:33.520 --> 0:24:36.800 always the best way, because there are many many circumstances 0:24:36.800 --> 0:24:39.719 where you would actually even if you don't want to 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:42.879 or mean to lead a witness. And one example they 0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:46.399 gave here in this article is if they say, and 0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:49.520 if they identify a filler or a foil aka a 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:52.159 person that was paid ten bucks say that's the person. 0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:54.159 The administrator might. 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:57.320 Say take your time, Yeah, are you sure like you 0:24:57.359 --> 0:24:58.159 really need to take. 0:24:58.040 --> 0:24:59.880 Your time, which is basically like saying row. 0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:01.960 Pretty much, they just. 0:25:04.320 --> 0:25:08.159 Or conversely, if when they're doing it sequentially, when they 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:11.040 get to like number four, they're like, whoa, get a 0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:15.040 load of this guy. Huh geez, look at that bag character. 0:25:15.240 --> 0:25:16.280 He's guilty of something. 0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:21.240 But they can't like even just a smile or something 0:25:21.320 --> 0:25:21.840 like that. 0:25:21.760 --> 0:25:24.520 Off like a nonverbal que you don't even mean to. 0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:27.040 Do, right, or you may mean to do because you 0:25:27.160 --> 0:25:29.399 know that that's the guy, and you know it in 0:25:29.440 --> 0:25:32.679 your bones that that guy did it, and you're leading 0:25:32.720 --> 0:25:34.639 the witness, right, it can be some some sort of 0:25:34.680 --> 0:25:39.119 nonverbal gesture. The problem is is that most people, I 0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:42.280 can't say most people, but it's been shown that some people, 0:25:42.520 --> 0:25:45.560 when they're brought in as a witness for a police lineup, 0:25:46.280 --> 0:25:49.280 feel like it's their role. It's their job to pick 0:25:49.280 --> 0:25:52.159 somebody for the cops. So they're more than happy to 0:25:52.200 --> 0:25:54.359 be led by the cops because then they're fulfilling their 0:25:54.440 --> 0:25:56.280 role and they did what they were supposed to do. 0:25:56.880 --> 0:26:02.400 So another another technique or way to administer a good 0:26:02.440 --> 0:26:07.000 lineup is to say, here, here's the lineup, whether it's sequential, 0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:08.600 one at a time or. 0:26:09.119 --> 0:26:10.440 All at once simultaneous. 0:26:10.520 --> 0:26:14.960 Yet right, the suspect may or may not be in 0:26:15.160 --> 0:26:15.880 this lineup. 0:26:16.280 --> 0:26:19.960 Yeah, that seems like I think they found that reduced 0:26:20.080 --> 0:26:27.040 mistaken identity rates were lower when they did this, So 0:26:27.080 --> 0:26:30.320 you would think just always do that right, right. 0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:33.520 Because it says to the witness like the person may 0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:35.480 not be in here. It's like a none of the above, 0:26:35.560 --> 0:26:38.320 the dreaded letter e none of the above. You're like, 0:26:38.359 --> 0:26:41.040 oh God, does that? Does that mean that they're that 0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:43.879 the answer is not here? And so you may you 0:26:43.960 --> 0:26:46.800 may say I don't I don't see them where. If 0:26:46.800 --> 0:26:49.320 they don't say that, you're going to presume that the 0:26:49.400 --> 0:26:52.320 suspect is in that lineup, right, and it's your job 0:26:52.440 --> 0:26:56.240 to find that person and you have to pick somebody. Yeah, 0:26:56.359 --> 0:26:59.639 most people aren't going to think like, I can't say so, 0:26:59.680 --> 0:27:02.919 I'm just not going to They're gonna be like three. 0:27:03.080 --> 0:27:05.399 Yeah, Well, first of all, it's a crime against you 0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:09.440 most a lot of times when you're like picking out 0:27:09.440 --> 0:27:09.840 this purp. 0:27:10.160 --> 0:27:10.480 Sure. 0:27:10.560 --> 0:27:13.520 Yeah, so you want them to be you know, found 0:27:13.640 --> 0:27:14.159 or whatever. 0:27:14.359 --> 0:27:15.879 Yeah, that's a really good point too. 0:27:15.800 --> 0:27:17.439 You want you don't want them to get away with it. 0:27:17.480 --> 0:27:19.000 And the other thing too, is I think there's a 0:27:19.080 --> 0:27:24.240 natural human instinct when given a test to not want 0:27:24.280 --> 0:27:27.280 to say I can't like you might feel like you 0:27:27.280 --> 0:27:27.800 have failed. 0:27:27.880 --> 0:27:30.359 Right. That's why I admire you saying that, like with 0:27:30.440 --> 0:27:33.399 the phone lineup, you know, not not being not just 0:27:33.440 --> 0:27:33.960 being like. 0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:35.040 This these two right. 0:27:36.520 --> 0:27:39.040 Yeah, But if it that wouldn't matter to my case, 0:27:39.080 --> 0:27:40.720 because if I would have said these two and if 0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:43.119 they're like, na, that's not the lady whose car it was. 0:27:43.240 --> 0:27:45.920 But a lot of people still would have right, right, right, 0:27:45.960 --> 0:27:46.720 And they probably. 0:27:46.440 --> 0:27:48.639 Wouldn't say no, that's wrong. They would have been like, Okay, 0:27:48.640 --> 0:27:50.600 thanks a lot for your time or whatever, and then 0:27:50.640 --> 0:27:51.760 you would have left and they'd. 0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:53.960 Been like, god, he was so close. 0:27:55.160 --> 0:27:59.639 Some other research, it's interesting that suggests when there is 0:27:59.840 --> 0:28:03.520 a defender in the lineup that young children and elderly 0:28:04.040 --> 0:28:07.520 perform about as well as just regularly young adults. But 0:28:07.600 --> 0:28:11.240 when the lineup does not have the actual offender, then 0:28:11.280 --> 0:28:15.240 they commit mistakes a lot higher. And to me, that's 0:28:15.320 --> 0:28:19.800 just because I think kids and elderly might not fully understand. 0:28:20.560 --> 0:28:21.720 I think they have to pick. 0:28:21.560 --> 0:28:24.520 Somebody, Okay, yeah, I agree. I think that's exactly what 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:25.120 it is too. 0:28:25.200 --> 0:28:27.000 But the research bears that out. It looks like. 0:28:27.080 --> 0:28:31.080 Right, So there's there is some like you talked about research, 0:28:31.200 --> 0:28:35.040 there's a lot of research in this, but it's become ambiguous. 0:28:35.119 --> 0:28:37.520 Right If you step back and you listen to all 0:28:37.560 --> 0:28:40.560 of the different different things that you can do with 0:28:40.640 --> 0:28:46.080 a lineup, it becomes very clear that a sequential double 0:28:46.120 --> 0:28:51.000 blind lineup where either one photo of a suspect is 0:28:51.040 --> 0:28:53.160 shown to the person at a time, or one live 0:28:53.320 --> 0:28:56.200 suspect is brought out to be looked at one person 0:28:56.240 --> 0:29:00.120 at a time, yeah, and is administered by a cop 0:29:00.240 --> 0:29:03.240 or a worker or somebody who doesn't know who the 0:29:03.320 --> 0:29:08.240 suspect is. That that's going to reduce the chance of 0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:13.440 a misidentification or a failure of an identification, and that 0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:17.280 the person who's being presented with these people is not 0:29:17.320 --> 0:29:20.760 going to be able to guess and if they actually 0:29:20.800 --> 0:29:25.320 do remember who the perpetrator was, they're going to recognize them. 0:29:25.880 --> 0:29:28.560 It's just obvious that that's the best way to do it, right. 0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:31.400 The thing is is there was a study in Illinois 0:29:32.200 --> 0:29:36.640 that just completely rocked that idea that that's the case, 0:29:36.680 --> 0:29:39.480 because there was a three or five year study in 0:29:39.600 --> 0:29:43.840 Illinois that looked at different types of lineups and compared 0:29:43.880 --> 0:29:46.880 them side by side and found that actually know that 0:29:47.320 --> 0:29:54.640 a double blind sequential lineup actually produces worse results than 0:29:56.000 --> 0:29:58.680 a simultaneous, non double blind one. 0:29:58.920 --> 0:29:59.120 Right. 0:29:59.360 --> 0:30:02.280 But and then again not so fast with that, because 0:30:02.960 --> 0:30:06.920 other people since then have questioned the methodology they used 0:30:06.920 --> 0:30:10.120 in that program and kind of said, you know, I 0:30:10.120 --> 0:30:13.520 don't even know if we can take this research and 0:30:13.560 --> 0:30:16.560 take these statistics seriously. 0:30:16.120 --> 0:30:20.680 Right, because methodologically it was a screwed up study, Like 0:30:20.720 --> 0:30:22.840 they really dropped the ball on the study. 0:30:23.080 --> 0:30:25.600 Yeah, And I don't think we mentioned the two judgments either. 0:30:26.000 --> 0:30:29.880 During simultaneous lineups, when everyone's standing there together, use what's 0:30:29.880 --> 0:30:32.640 called relative judgment. In other words, you compare all the 0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:35.760 dudes standing up there against one another, and with the 0:30:35.800 --> 0:30:38.080 ones where they trot them out one at a time, 0:30:38.840 --> 0:30:42.840 they use something called absolute judgment, which is supposedly means 0:30:42.880 --> 0:30:45.560 that they're comparing it to only their memory and not 0:30:45.680 --> 0:30:47.120 to the people that came before or after. 0:30:47.720 --> 0:30:50.760 Right, that's the hope, that's the ideal, right. 0:30:50.760 --> 0:30:53.400 Right, But with this reasearch in research and the study, 0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:56.200 I kind of didn't even know what to think because 0:30:56.240 --> 0:30:59.320 it sort of went against the grain and the findings. 0:30:59.360 --> 0:31:00.880 But then they said, I don't even know if we 0:31:00.920 --> 0:31:04.320 can trust these findings because the methodology was no good, right, 0:31:04.680 --> 0:31:07.840 So we ended up sort of back at square one 0:31:07.880 --> 0:31:09.360 with the Illinois pilot program. 0:31:09.440 --> 0:31:12.440 It seems like, yeah, the reason why the method methodology 0:31:12.520 --> 0:31:16.120 was so terrible. They used the double blind procedure for 0:31:16.680 --> 0:31:20.520 sequential lineups, but they didn't use it for simultaneous lineups. 0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:24.600 So if cops were advertently or inadvertently leading people with 0:31:24.640 --> 0:31:28.880 simultaneous lineups, then of course those are going to produce 0:31:30.400 --> 0:31:33.720 correct choices with suspects better than the one that's a 0:31:33.800 --> 0:31:38.400 double blind sequential one. They compared apples to oranges in 0:31:38.440 --> 0:31:41.880 this study. It's almost like a sixth grader came up 0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:45.000 with how to actually conduct this study that the Illinois 0:31:45.040 --> 0:31:49.320 legislature said, Illinois State Police, go go figure this out. 0:31:49.760 --> 0:31:51.960 Do a three year study on this, and they came 0:31:52.000 --> 0:31:56.400 back and said, huh yeah, and it was. It's terrible. 0:31:56.440 --> 0:31:59.760 And the problem is is if it is true that 0:31:59.880 --> 0:32:02.680 a sequential double blind study is the way to go, 0:32:02.920 --> 0:32:05.960 that it is just smarter and works better, that study 0:32:06.360 --> 0:32:09.560 set that back by years because now all the cops 0:32:09.600 --> 0:32:12.560 all over the country heardh they did the study and 0:32:12.600 --> 0:32:16.520 it's actually worse not and the design of the study 0:32:16.680 --> 0:32:19.760 was flawed methodologically, just it doesn't work. 0:32:20.000 --> 0:32:20.240 Yeah. 0:32:20.240 --> 0:32:24.520 They even went to the cops at the Illinois pilot program, 0:32:24.640 --> 0:32:26.240 talked to them, and they said the majority of the 0:32:26.280 --> 0:32:30.160 officers said they didn't think that it was superior and 0:32:30.200 --> 0:32:32.680 said that witnesses who can identify the offender can do 0:32:32.720 --> 0:32:37.280 so under either procedure, and officers express concerns that using 0:32:37.280 --> 0:32:42.040 a blind administrator disrupts the relationship an investigator has tries 0:32:42.040 --> 0:32:44.520 to build with a witness. So I interpret all that 0:32:44.720 --> 0:32:48.200 as it's cops saying, can we just keep doing it 0:32:48.240 --> 0:32:49.280 the way we've always done it? 0:32:49.400 --> 0:32:53.000 Yeah, because it gets results right. But the thing is 0:32:53.000 --> 0:32:56.480 is they have some pretty good points in that if 0:32:56.520 --> 0:32:59.760 you are running a lineup or whatever, you put together 0:32:59.840 --> 0:33:02.200 like a six pack is what it's called in the US, 0:33:02.280 --> 0:33:07.000 where you've got three and three mugshots of people and 0:33:07.440 --> 0:33:10.360 or I think in Canada they usually use twelve. But 0:33:10.400 --> 0:33:12.600 you put this thing together, then you have to find 0:33:12.680 --> 0:33:17.000 like a patrol officer or a sergeant or somebody who 0:33:17.040 --> 0:33:19.160 has no idea what's going on with your kids? 0:33:19.200 --> 0:33:20.880 You want to do a double blind, right. 0:33:21.000 --> 0:33:23.400 And then those that person has to go to the house, 0:33:23.640 --> 0:33:27.960 record the the what the person did, and then come 0:33:28.000 --> 0:33:30.959 back and tell you. It's just an extra thing that 0:33:31.080 --> 0:33:33.280 cops are like, come on, dude, this is just making 0:33:33.360 --> 0:33:34.400 it way too hard. 0:33:34.840 --> 0:33:36.760 Yeah. I mean they said in here that sometimes they 0:33:36.720 --> 0:33:41.640 even have trouble coming up with the blind administrator, and 0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:45.400 maybe it's a It probably has everything to do with budgets. 0:33:45.880 --> 0:33:50.040 My thought is like, why isn't there one person that 0:33:50.120 --> 0:33:50.960 does only this. 0:33:51.360 --> 0:33:52.440 Oh, that's a great question. 0:33:52.480 --> 0:33:54.280 That just is called the administrator. 0:33:54.720 --> 0:33:58.120 Right, and then so the line of administrator and goes 0:33:58.120 --> 0:34:00.960 to the people's houses or runs them in the precinct 0:34:01.000 --> 0:34:04.080 or whatever, and this is the only thing that they do, right, 0:34:05.040 --> 0:34:05.440 I'll do. 0:34:05.440 --> 0:34:07.160 It, bring in the administrator. 0:34:07.840 --> 0:34:11.920 Yeah, that's a TV show waiting to have it. Sure, Yeah, 0:34:11.960 --> 0:34:13.680 I don't know. It's probably budgetary. 0:34:14.200 --> 0:34:14.759 Its got to be. 0:34:15.680 --> 0:34:17.439 They also found with a lot of these when there's 0:34:17.560 --> 0:34:22.400 multiple purpse, it just goes haywire. Yeah, because sometimes they'll 0:34:22.400 --> 0:34:25.920 put two of the purpose in the same lineup right, right, 0:34:26.040 --> 0:34:27.040 just super confusing. 0:34:27.160 --> 0:34:29.600 That actually falls in line with like how to build 0:34:29.680 --> 0:34:32.480 like a decent line up the right way and we'll 0:34:32.520 --> 0:34:36.000 cover that and where they get people to stand in 0:34:36.239 --> 0:34:58.200 as suspects right after this. All right, Chuck, So you 0:34:58.239 --> 0:35:01.160 were just talking about how if you have lineup and 0:35:01.200 --> 0:35:04.520 you put two suspects that you've got, say, there are 0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:09.000 two guys who rob some lady, and you have five 0:35:09.160 --> 0:35:11.960 people in the lineup, but two of them are your suspects. 0:35:12.680 --> 0:35:18.359 That actually is totally unfair for the suspects because what 0:35:18.400 --> 0:35:22.120 you've done just then is increase the chance that somebody 0:35:22.160 --> 0:35:27.839 could guess, just guess randomly at the suspect. Right. 0:35:28.280 --> 0:35:29.640 Yeah, If you have five. 0:35:29.480 --> 0:35:32.240 People in a lineup and one of them are the suspect, 0:35:32.320 --> 0:35:34.520 then that person has a one in five chance of 0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:37.879 being chosen by random chance. But if there's two suspects 0:35:38.200 --> 0:35:40.640 in a five person lineup, they have a two out 0:35:40.640 --> 0:35:43.279 of five chance, which is way more than a one 0:35:43.320 --> 0:35:46.680 in five chance. Some people might even say double the chance, right, 0:35:47.239 --> 0:35:50.680 And so it's just less fair. So one of the 0:35:50.719 --> 0:35:53.280 standards that you want to fulfill if you're putting together 0:35:53.320 --> 0:35:56.120 a lineup in your cop is that you have one 0:35:56.280 --> 0:36:02.080 suspect per lineup, which is tougher to do than you 0:36:02.080 --> 0:36:02.600 would think. 0:36:02.920 --> 0:36:04.680 Yeah, and it seems like a lot of The problem 0:36:04.719 --> 0:36:06.800 with this is, and they even say so in the 0:36:06.920 --> 0:36:10.800 NIJ articles, that lab studies are one thing, but actually 0:36:10.880 --> 0:36:14.239 implementing this in the field they get different results. And 0:36:14.640 --> 0:36:17.759 people are doing lab research on one end, cops are 0:36:17.760 --> 0:36:20.280 out in the field, sometimes they're in people's home, sometimes 0:36:20.280 --> 0:36:23.439 they're in the precinct. And it seems like the two 0:36:23.440 --> 0:36:26.480 heads aren't talking very much, right, And there are people, 0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:28.919 you know, they did like a live web chat at 0:36:28.920 --> 0:36:31.560 some point to bring together all these experts from around 0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:33.839 the world, and they kind of all around me were like, 0:36:34.640 --> 0:36:36.759 this is a big mess and we need to all 0:36:36.880 --> 0:36:40.120 combine forces to try and do the right thing. And 0:36:40.120 --> 0:36:42.040 the feeling I get is that a lot of these 0:36:42.080 --> 0:36:44.520 police precincts just kind of want to be left alone. 0:36:44.800 --> 0:36:47.160 Sure, I mean, they know what works, and it works, 0:36:47.200 --> 0:36:49.760 you know, but does it well, that's the question. 0:36:50.000 --> 0:36:54.520 Right. So they fingered a collar, right, is that the. 0:36:54.520 --> 0:36:56.200 Right the gumsh you finger to call it? 0:36:56.360 --> 0:37:00.200 Yeah, then it's all in a good day's work. They 0:37:00.200 --> 0:37:04.479 finger the wrong collar, then it's no good. 0:37:04.560 --> 0:37:08.160 It's still all in. So one of the reasons it's 0:37:08.680 --> 0:37:12.600 that somebody cop would put a two suspects in a lineup. 0:37:13.120 --> 0:37:15.440 It's not just to increase the chances that one of 0:37:15.440 --> 0:37:18.880 those suspects gets picked by an eyewitness. It's because sometimes 0:37:18.880 --> 0:37:20.680 it can be hard to come up with people for 0:37:20.800 --> 0:37:21.360 a lineup. 0:37:21.440 --> 0:37:23.839 Yeah, this was hard to believe, Like, just they can't 0:37:23.840 --> 0:37:25.320 find people sometimes. 0:37:24.920 --> 0:37:27.680 Right, Well, and the reason why is because let's say 0:37:27.680 --> 0:37:32.319 you have multiple witnesses, and each witness gives you a 0:37:32.480 --> 0:37:39.200 different description of the perpetrator, right, right, Ideally you're going 0:37:39.280 --> 0:37:45.080 to find a different lineup for each witness. 0:37:45.239 --> 0:37:49.040 Yeah, Like, if there's three witnesses, you should run three lineups, right, 0:37:49.080 --> 0:37:52.240 because their descriptions are probably somewhat different. 0:37:52.400 --> 0:37:54.880 Right. That can be difficult, right, And there's a couple 0:37:54.880 --> 0:37:57.319 of ways to handle a lineup. You can do a 0:37:57.440 --> 0:38:02.759 suspect matched lineup, where you've got a suspect and to 0:38:03.120 --> 0:38:06.960 keep your suspect from standing out, you make all the 0:38:07.000 --> 0:38:11.320 other people in the lineup look like you know your suspect. Yeah, 0:38:11.400 --> 0:38:13.360 that's one way to do it. Another is to do 0:38:13.560 --> 0:38:19.640 the perpetrator description match strategy, which is you've got. 0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:22.880 And that's when you have no suspect, right, just witness accounts. 0:38:22.920 --> 0:38:25.840 You can have a suspect, but you're creating your lineup 0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:30.640 based on what the what the witness has described the perpetrator. 0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:32.560 To look like, and then just throw the suspect in there, right. 0:38:32.480 --> 0:38:35.200 Which can be bad for the suspect because if the suspect, 0:38:35.560 --> 0:38:38.320 the person you actually think did it, doesn't look anything 0:38:38.400 --> 0:38:41.160 like the eyewitness said. There's going to be four redheads 0:38:41.200 --> 0:38:44.080 and the one blonde guy who's actually the suspect, and 0:38:44.080 --> 0:38:46.000 he's going to stand out like a sore throum. So 0:38:46.040 --> 0:38:47.799 there's a lot of different things that have to be 0:38:47.880 --> 0:38:50.920 massaged here to try to make everybody in the lineup 0:38:51.000 --> 0:38:55.160 basically look all like the perpetrator, yeah the eyewitness described, 0:38:55.520 --> 0:38:58.120 or all like the suspect that you've got, because you 0:38:58.160 --> 0:39:00.040 don't want the suspect to stand out. And there's a 0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:02.359 lot of techniques that they use to try to make 0:39:02.400 --> 0:39:03.720 everybody look the same. 0:39:04.200 --> 0:39:04.439 Yeah. 0:39:04.480 --> 0:39:05.960 One of the I mean they like you said they 0:39:06.040 --> 0:39:09.520 dressed people. It was funny that one article said in 0:39:09.560 --> 0:39:11.200 the Bronx precinct, they usually. 0:39:10.920 --> 0:39:14.480 Put them in Yankees hats. Right, Just line up a 0:39:14.480 --> 0:39:15.879 bunch of guys in Yankees right. 0:39:15.960 --> 0:39:18.279 That means that they have like five Yankees hats hanging 0:39:18.320 --> 0:39:20.640 outside of the you know that room where they. 0:39:20.520 --> 0:39:22.799 Walk them into wasn' Kramer in a lineup when he 0:39:22.960 --> 0:39:26.440 was a suspect, a totally serial killer suspect. 0:39:26.520 --> 0:39:29.279 Yes, I don't remember it was a serial killer, but 0:39:29.320 --> 0:39:30.680 I remember he was in the line I he kept 0:39:30.680 --> 0:39:31.479 turning the wrong way. 0:39:31.719 --> 0:39:33.960 Yeah, I think he was misidentified on the when they 0:39:34.040 --> 0:39:36.640 went to LA to pitch the TV show. Huh, Kramer 0:39:36.680 --> 0:39:39.680 got caught up in some like serial killer things. I 0:39:39.719 --> 0:39:42.320 think of that, and I think of the great lineup 0:39:42.360 --> 0:39:43.960 scene in the Usual Suspects. 0:39:44.800 --> 0:39:46.400 Let's address that real quick. 0:39:46.239 --> 0:39:49.399 When they have to say something so well, we can't 0:39:49.400 --> 0:39:50.760 repeat it here because there's bad words. 0:39:50.920 --> 0:39:53.360 Right. No, what I was going to say is that 0:39:53.360 --> 0:39:56.040 that lineup would never happen because not only do you 0:39:56.160 --> 0:39:59.040 have two suspects in there, all five people in the 0:39:59.080 --> 0:39:59.880 lineup are your. 0:40:00.600 --> 0:40:01.920 And they're not dressed the same. 0:40:02.360 --> 0:40:02.600 Yep. 0:40:02.840 --> 0:40:05.120 Yeah, it's it's a total movie lineup. 0:40:05.160 --> 0:40:07.120 It would never happen. No, Or are you going to 0:40:07.160 --> 0:40:08.360 say about them saying something. 0:40:08.200 --> 0:40:10.400 Well, they had to recite a line. I don't know 0:40:10.440 --> 0:40:11.960 how typical that is, though. 0:40:12.160 --> 0:40:12.719 Uh, you me. 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:16.000 When she did her line up, she remembered what the 0:40:16.000 --> 0:40:16.720 guy was saying. 0:40:17.000 --> 0:40:19.720 Oh, and they say that, okay, so that's the thing. 0:40:19.640 --> 0:40:21.279 And she was like, wait a minute, can I do 0:40:21.360 --> 0:40:23.600 they have to say whatever I say they said? And 0:40:23.680 --> 0:40:26.279 the cop was like yeah, and she's like, really, what 0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:28.719 I want him to say? Yeah, he's like, no, you 0:40:28.880 --> 0:40:30.400 have to say what they actually said. 0:40:30.560 --> 0:40:33.799 Oh yeah, how did that result? Did she get the guy? 0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:36.080 Oh? She picked him out immediately? Oh okay, yeah, yeah, 0:40:36.080 --> 0:40:37.080 I think I got busted. 0:40:37.280 --> 0:40:37.600 Nice. 0:40:37.719 --> 0:40:40.800 Yeah, man, you don't mug you me. I'll tell you that, buddy. 0:40:40.960 --> 0:40:42.200 You hear that, purpose. 0:40:42.880 --> 0:40:45.279 Right, you started quaking in your boots. 0:40:46.040 --> 0:40:48.239 The one thing too, that caught me, uh sort of 0:40:48.239 --> 0:40:51.160 off guard, is that I never thought about is the uh, 0:40:51.480 --> 0:40:53.680 the part about whether or not they're clean shaven, Like 0:40:55.160 --> 0:40:59.040 there could be details of omission, Like if an eyewitness 0:40:59.719 --> 0:41:02.600 doesn't remember or doesn't mention that they either were clean 0:41:02.640 --> 0:41:06.640 shaven or not, then I think they default to something 0:41:06.680 --> 0:41:09.160 that may not be accurate. And so all of a sudden, 0:41:09.200 --> 0:41:12.880 your lineup, well, your lineup should have all clean shaven dudes. 0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:15.239 You should just assume that if they didn't say the 0:41:15.280 --> 0:41:18.920 guy had a beard, that that doesn't that that doesn't 0:41:18.920 --> 0:41:20.360 mean that the guy had a beard and they just 0:41:20.400 --> 0:41:22.279 didn't say it. You should just assume it means that 0:41:22.320 --> 0:41:23.600 they're clean shaven. 0:41:23.280 --> 0:41:25.440 And they should all be clean shaven in a lineup, 0:41:25.480 --> 0:41:28.399 because if you have five clean shaven guys in one 0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:30.480 filler or one foil with a big beard like. 0:41:30.480 --> 0:41:33.319 Me, right, I might get picked out just because I 0:41:33.360 --> 0:41:34.160 look different. 0:41:34.000 --> 0:41:34.759 Right exactly? 0:41:35.000 --> 0:41:38.200 Or if the one guy's clean shaven, and you're like, well, 0:41:38.560 --> 0:41:40.680 they didn't say that the person had a beard, but 0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:43.520 they also didn't say they didn't have a beard, right, 0:41:43.680 --> 0:41:46.120 so I can put this clean shaven suspect in with 0:41:46.200 --> 0:41:48.160 four other guys who all have beards and make them 0:41:48.200 --> 0:41:51.440 stand out. That's the opposite. And apparently there was this 0:41:51.520 --> 0:41:54.240 New York Times article from years back about a guy 0:41:54.400 --> 0:41:57.000 named that dude, what was his. 0:41:56.960 --> 0:41:59.719 Name, casting agent, basically Robert Weston. 0:41:59.520 --> 0:42:02.440 Yeah, Robert or western It's it's a pretty interesting little article. 0:42:03.200 --> 0:42:07.320 But in the article it says that the Bronx cops 0:42:07.360 --> 0:42:09.319 that use this guy to help fill lineups, which we'll 0:42:09.320 --> 0:42:12.879 talk about in a second, that that when they give 0:42:12.960 --> 0:42:16.360 the perpetrators like the Yankees hats or whatever for the lineup, 0:42:16.840 --> 0:42:19.160 like the perpetrator is always the one who pulls it 0:42:19.160 --> 0:42:21.600 down over his eyes, and they have to be like, dude, 0:42:22.560 --> 0:42:24.200 see how everybody else to wear in their hat makes 0:42:24.320 --> 0:42:26.239 us exactly like that, or else they're going to pick 0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:29.520 you out. So they actually are trying to help the 0:42:29.560 --> 0:42:32.360 perpetrator at least not stand up and be like me, 0:42:33.640 --> 0:42:36.839 you know, and instead just keep it on the on 0:42:36.880 --> 0:42:39.879 the level, at least as far as the Yankees hat 0:42:39.960 --> 0:42:40.480 brooms go. 0:42:40.920 --> 0:42:42.200 I so want to be a filler. 0:42:42.920 --> 0:42:44.800 I'm sure you could do it. I want you just 0:42:45.000 --> 0:42:46.920 have to hang around long enough until a dude who 0:42:46.960 --> 0:42:50.520 looks like you commits a crime, which in Atlanta's a 0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:52.520 lot of hipsters running around. For sure. 0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:53.920 I don't look like a hipster. 0:42:54.520 --> 0:42:56.359 I don't know, I. 0:42:56.360 --> 0:42:58.879 Look like it the hipster gone bad. 0:42:59.280 --> 0:43:01.400 Oh yeah, need enough to be h. You look like 0:43:01.400 --> 0:43:02.440 a hit and run hipster. 0:43:02.520 --> 0:43:05.279 Hipsters are super well coffed and like squared away. 0:43:05.800 --> 0:43:07.839 Oh I know it to me, you know, Yeah, your 0:43:08.200 --> 0:43:09.120 jeenes aren't pegged. 0:43:09.320 --> 0:43:11.080 No, I look like a hipster who slept in. 0:43:12.640 --> 0:43:15.359 So back to Robert Weston, this guy in New York 0:43:15.480 --> 0:43:18.359 at the time, at least, I can't believe how little 0:43:18.360 --> 0:43:21.400 money he made. He only got ten dollars for putting 0:43:21.440 --> 0:43:25.200 together a complete lineup. Yeah, and they said sometimes he 0:43:25.200 --> 0:43:27.560 does as many as four in a day, and sometimes 0:43:27.560 --> 0:43:28.000 not at all. 0:43:28.080 --> 0:43:30.680 I'm like, so a good day for him is forty bucks, 0:43:30.760 --> 0:43:33.920 that's what it sounds like. Man, Maybe that's the problem 0:43:34.000 --> 0:43:36.640 is they need to Well again, it's budgetary. Probably it's 0:43:36.640 --> 0:43:39.000 going to say pay a little bit more, get a 0:43:39.040 --> 0:43:40.560 casting agent in there, get. 0:43:40.360 --> 0:43:43.080 Some of those college educated fillers in there, right. 0:43:43.480 --> 0:43:43.920 I guess. 0:43:43.960 --> 0:43:47.880 And also it made it sound like, I don't know, 0:43:47.920 --> 0:43:50.319 he's kind of pulling people off the street. Sometimes they're 0:43:50.360 --> 0:43:54.319 homeless people. Sometimes they're like drug addicts. Well yeah, I 0:43:54.320 --> 0:43:57.279 mean I guess it depends on who the purp is. 0:43:57.719 --> 0:44:01.200 Sometimes they get other cops that are busy to stand in. 0:44:01.280 --> 0:44:03.960 Right, I mean, these are people need people will go 0:44:04.080 --> 0:44:06.480 to a police station and stand in the lineup for 0:44:06.520 --> 0:44:07.280 ten dollars. 0:44:07.360 --> 0:44:09.160 Right, They get paid as much as the guy who 0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:10.080 organized the party. 0:44:10.200 --> 0:44:13.640 Right, But if Robert Weston stands in himself, he'll get 0:44:13.680 --> 0:44:16.160 an extra twenty bucks on top of putting the thing together. 0:44:16.239 --> 0:44:16.399 Right. 0:44:16.520 --> 0:44:17.960 How many times he tries to do that. 0:44:18.040 --> 0:44:21.160 But he even said, like if they want white guys, 0:44:21.200 --> 0:44:23.000 I don't know any white guys. So they go to 0:44:23.080 --> 0:44:26.080 homeless shelters for that. And that's very much what cops do. 0:44:26.360 --> 0:44:28.560 Cops will go find people on the street. They will 0:44:28.600 --> 0:44:32.360 go to homeless shelters. They will have casting agents like 0:44:32.520 --> 0:44:37.200 Robert Weston on their speed dial, and what they'll say is, 0:44:37.320 --> 0:44:43.280 I've got a middle aged white guy with a graying 0:44:43.360 --> 0:44:48.200 beard and he's about six feet tall. Give me four 0:44:48.239 --> 0:44:53.200 other people that match that description, and ideally four other 0:44:53.239 --> 0:44:56.040 people that match that description will show up, and not 0:44:56.360 --> 0:44:59.680 three and then one another total outlier or something like that. 0:45:00.080 --> 0:45:02.120 One cop was complaining about his work. It was kind 0:45:02.120 --> 0:45:04.719 of funny, right, complaining about Robert Wesson. He was like, 0:45:05.000 --> 0:45:07.440 he didn't bring in good people. He always like right. 0:45:07.360 --> 0:45:09.840 Budges, the ages and the races and stuff. 0:45:10.000 --> 0:45:12.440 But the reason why they keep using this guy is 0:45:12.480 --> 0:45:15.520 because he answers his phone, doesn't matter what time you 0:45:15.560 --> 0:45:17.920 call him. He can put a lineup together for you. 0:45:18.000 --> 0:45:19.959 And if you have a very limited amount of time, 0:45:20.200 --> 0:45:22.440 you can only hold a suspect for so long without 0:45:22.520 --> 0:45:24.640 charging them, but you want to put them in a 0:45:24.680 --> 0:45:28.160 lineup for what's called an investigatory lineup, to where you 0:45:28.200 --> 0:45:31.360 just want to see maybe bringing one witness just to 0:45:31.400 --> 0:45:33.719 see if you're on the right track. You've got a 0:45:33.800 --> 0:45:36.200 very limited amount of time and you need people like that, 0:45:36.440 --> 0:45:39.000 which means that you may have a lower quality one. Yeah, 0:45:39.120 --> 0:45:42.040 fortunately that would just be for an investigatory one. If 0:45:42.040 --> 0:45:44.920 it were for a confirmatory one, that's the one that 0:45:44.960 --> 0:45:47.319 you see on TV where it's like you bring in 0:45:47.360 --> 0:45:50.040 a witness and you've got your suspect and they're sitting 0:45:50.040 --> 0:45:52.160 in jail, and you bring them out. That is the 0:45:52.200 --> 0:45:55.440 one where like, all the t should be crossed and 0:45:55.480 --> 0:45:58.959 the eyes should be dotted, because a good court will 0:45:59.040 --> 0:46:01.879 here and we'll want to know the details of how 0:46:01.880 --> 0:46:05.439 that lineup went, and if anything sounds hinky, they'll toss 0:46:05.480 --> 0:46:08.400 that lineup right out, that eyewitness testimony out. 0:46:09.040 --> 0:46:12.040 The worst possible version of all of this is something 0:46:12.120 --> 0:46:14.840 called a show up. And this is something this is 0:46:14.880 --> 0:46:17.319 also a movie trope that you see, and that's when 0:46:17.360 --> 0:46:20.919 an officer brings a witness to a place to show 0:46:20.960 --> 0:46:25.359 the witness the suspect that's been apprehended. So like they're 0:46:25.440 --> 0:46:28.440 in the back of a car, or here's what happens 0:46:28.440 --> 0:46:30.319 in the movie. There's a guy in the back of 0:46:30.320 --> 0:46:34.640 a police car handcuffed. They'll bring the person who was 0:46:34.719 --> 0:46:37.319 robbed or whatever they're to the scene. They'll yank him 0:46:37.320 --> 0:46:39.120 out of the back of the car and say, is 0:46:39.160 --> 0:46:41.160 this the dirt bag who did it? 0:46:41.280 --> 0:46:42.200 Like just one guy. 0:46:42.400 --> 0:46:45.839 Yeah, and that's clearly the worst possible version of. 0:46:45.760 --> 0:46:46.080 All of this. 0:46:46.280 --> 0:46:49.040 And the guy's like, I need more pace, a pay, 0:46:49.160 --> 0:46:52.680 I'm coming down. So one of the here's the reason 0:46:52.760 --> 0:46:54.920 why that show up is so terrible, Chuck. 0:46:55.120 --> 0:46:57.200 Well, there's no other people that they're comparing them to. 0:46:57.400 --> 0:47:00.520 That's one. But they're also in handcuffs, in the back 0:47:00.560 --> 0:47:02.160 of a cop car or something like that. They're in 0:47:02.239 --> 0:47:06.120 place custody, and so the eyewitness is going to assume that, 0:47:06.239 --> 0:47:09.560 in addition to their testimony, the cops obviously have something 0:47:09.600 --> 0:47:12.400 on this person, and so that must mean that the 0:47:12.440 --> 0:47:14.960 cops know it's that person, and this is just a formality, 0:47:15.080 --> 0:47:17.000 so I'll be like, yeah, sure, that was that person. 0:47:17.719 --> 0:47:20.279 That's the first problem with it. The second problem is 0:47:20.280 --> 0:47:23.600 is that from that point on, that person that they've 0:47:23.680 --> 0:47:28.160 just seen now becomes the star of their memory of 0:47:28.200 --> 0:47:33.320 that crime. It's like they photoshop this person's face into 0:47:33.360 --> 0:47:36.239 that vague, shadowy face that's holding the gun that they 0:47:36.280 --> 0:47:39.080 were actually focused on, and from that moment on they 0:47:39.120 --> 0:47:42.840 just get more and more certain that that was the 0:47:42.920 --> 0:47:46.200 person because that person's not starring in their memories and 0:47:46.239 --> 0:47:47.960 it's not just the problem with the show up, but 0:47:48.040 --> 0:47:52.600 with any misidentification. When they see that person and that 0:47:52.640 --> 0:47:56.239 person becomes seared in their brain, they're positive from that 0:47:56.320 --> 0:47:58.759 point on and they can seem very confident in court, 0:47:58.800 --> 0:48:02.240 which again he's buy even though it's garbage. 0:48:02.320 --> 0:48:06.240 Well, in weeks and months can go by, right between 0:48:06.280 --> 0:48:09.480 the point that you have experienced a crime and when 0:48:09.520 --> 0:48:12.399 you may be identifying someone or a court for sure 0:48:12.440 --> 0:48:16.799 as months and months and months later. So man, part 0:48:16.840 --> 0:48:18.640 of me does think, like, get rid of all this. 0:48:19.400 --> 0:48:21.120 A lot of people say that, or at the very 0:48:21.200 --> 0:48:25.120 least say this is eyewitness testimony. It's actually terrible testimony. 0:48:25.239 --> 0:48:26.640 Actually it's terrible evidence. 0:48:27.120 --> 0:48:28.040 But let's do it anyway. 0:48:28.120 --> 0:48:30.239 Right. But and if they did say that, if they 0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:35.640 basically lowered what how much weight eyewitness testimony held in court, 0:48:36.200 --> 0:48:40.279 then those cases that were built entirely on eyewitness testimony 0:48:40.520 --> 0:48:42.080 wouldn't have a leg to stand on it. They have 0:48:42.120 --> 0:48:43.520 to go build a bigger case. 0:48:44.040 --> 0:48:47.320 Yeah, But like in Yumi's case, it worked, it did. No, 0:48:47.440 --> 0:48:50.000 it was like that guy might have walked, you know, right, That's. 0:48:49.800 --> 0:48:54.160 The problem is that, you know, if if twenty five 0:48:54.160 --> 0:48:56.880 percent of the time is wrong, right, seventy five percent 0:48:56.920 --> 0:48:59.560 of the time, is right, we think. So, I mean 0:48:59.560 --> 0:49:03.239 it's not it's not like Arson investigation, which we're going 0:49:03.280 --> 0:49:05.200 to do one on one day, Yeah, where it's just 0:49:05.320 --> 0:49:08.120 totally made up. Like it does have some veracity, but 0:49:08.160 --> 0:49:09.959 there's a lot of flaws with it, and. 0:49:09.880 --> 0:49:12.680 The lives are at stake though it's really dicey. 0:49:12.840 --> 0:49:16.120 They need to figure it out because of that. Yeah, 0:49:16.480 --> 0:49:17.879 so they need to go do that now. 0:49:18.200 --> 0:49:21.960 I mean, can you imagine anything worse than being misidentified 0:49:22.000 --> 0:49:25.759 and serving no, two decades in prison for something you 0:49:25.960 --> 0:49:26.680 really didn't do? 0:49:27.560 --> 0:49:29.400 No, I really can't. 0:49:29.560 --> 0:49:31.000 I mean I remember how up said I got when 0:49:31.000 --> 0:49:33.520 we did the Innocence Project. It's just, yeah, you hear 0:49:33.560 --> 0:49:34.920 these stories and then they get out and they're like, 0:49:35.040 --> 0:49:37.319 well here's here's four hundred thousand bucks. 0:49:37.360 --> 0:49:38.280 We feel pretty bad. 0:49:38.239 --> 0:49:40.160 Right, go get yourself something nice. Try to forget about 0:49:40.200 --> 0:49:42.919 all this, right. Yeah, did you ever see that movie 0:49:43.360 --> 0:49:49.600 An Innocent Man with Tom Selleck. It scared the Bejesus 0:49:49.640 --> 0:49:51.480 out of me. The same thing happened to him when 0:49:51.480 --> 0:49:54.120 he was when he was he was framed. 0:49:54.840 --> 0:49:56.680 Oh wait, that's high Road to China. 0:49:57.160 --> 0:49:59.799 Oh right, I got my stuff? Makes it? No that's 0:50:00.360 --> 0:50:03.279 down under that. Oh right, Uh, you got anything else? 0:50:03.400 --> 0:50:03.680 Nope? 0:50:03.760 --> 0:50:05.880 All right, Well that's it for police. 0:50:05.640 --> 0:50:08.160 Lineups for now. We'll do an update whenever they get 0:50:08.200 --> 0:50:08.839 it figured out. 0:50:08.920 --> 0:50:12.040 We did one on police sketches, right, yeah, okay, is 0:50:12.080 --> 0:50:12.440 this it? 0:50:12.600 --> 0:50:13.120 Are we done? 0:50:13.239 --> 0:50:13.319 No? 0:50:13.440 --> 0:50:20.400 We still got Arson investigation. We've got a lot all right, yeah, okay, okay. 0:50:21.200 --> 0:50:23.480 If you want to know more about police lineups, then 0:50:23.880 --> 0:50:25.759 I don't know, go hang around a police station. See 0:50:25.760 --> 0:50:27.560 if you can stand in one learn firsthand. 0:50:28.239 --> 0:50:31.279 Okay, get a little sign that says I will be 0:50:31.320 --> 0:50:32.880 your foil ten dollars. 0:50:33.120 --> 0:50:33.359 Yep. 0:50:33.960 --> 0:50:34.280 Uh. 0:50:34.320 --> 0:50:36.520 And since I said ten dollars, it's time for listener. 0:50:36.560 --> 0:50:43.000 Now, I'm gonna call this youngest fan. This very cute email. Hey, guys, 0:50:43.000 --> 0:50:43.760 love the podcast. 0:50:43.800 --> 0:50:48.200 You're doing it right, It's not this email is not 0:50:48.280 --> 0:50:50.840 episode specific, but I had to tell you about this. 0:50:50.960 --> 0:50:52.920 My husband and I welcomed our baby boy into the 0:50:52.920 --> 0:50:55.480 world a couple of months ago. When I was pregnant, 0:50:55.480 --> 0:50:57.040 we joked that the baby would think that one of 0:50:57.080 --> 0:51:00.319 you was his dad because he heard your voices so often. 0:51:02.480 --> 0:51:04.920 That's a very funny joke in a family, you know, 0:51:06.400 --> 0:51:10.640 joke about the paternity of your child. Now that he's here, 0:51:10.719 --> 0:51:13.080 I've been playing music in the car instead of the podcast, 0:51:13.480 --> 0:51:16.279 thinking music helps calm him. Well, one day he was 0:51:16.280 --> 0:51:17.960 crying and crying in the car. I couldn't get him 0:51:17.960 --> 0:51:18.480 to calm down. 0:51:18.640 --> 0:51:22.320 She was like, what's wrong with DOCN? Why isn't docin working. 0:51:23.520 --> 0:51:24.840 I couldn't get him to calm down with any of the 0:51:24.920 --> 0:51:26.480 usual tricks, so I decided to heck with it. I'm 0:51:26.480 --> 0:51:28.400 gonna put on the podcast, and I kid you not, 0:51:28.719 --> 0:51:30.920 as soon as you guys started talking, he stopped crying. 0:51:31.400 --> 0:51:36.160 My husband says it was coincidence. Jealous, I say, stuff, 0:51:36.160 --> 0:51:36.560 you should know. 0:51:36.640 --> 0:51:36.960 Magic. 0:51:39.120 --> 0:51:40.880 Now we're back to always listening to you guys in 0:51:40.920 --> 0:51:42.959 the car. You keep up the great work. And thanks 0:51:42.960 --> 0:51:46.239 for soothing my baby boy. And that is from Sarah 0:51:46.320 --> 0:51:51.960 Strantz and our youngest fan, Frank from beautiful Mount Pleasant, 0:51:52.000 --> 0:51:52.799 South Carolina. 0:51:52.840 --> 0:51:55.560 That's awesome. Thank you so much for that email, Frank, 0:51:55.640 --> 0:51:56.839 go to sleep quiet now. 0:51:56.920 --> 0:51:58.879 They named their baby after our chair? 0:51:59.160 --> 0:51:59.399 Yeah? 0:52:01.200 --> 0:52:03.440 Pretty? Wouldn't that be amazing if they actually did it? 0:52:03.520 --> 0:52:04.200 Well? Now? 0:52:05.080 --> 0:52:07.640 And thank you also to unnamed husband for being a 0:52:07.680 --> 0:52:08.240 good sport. 0:52:08.880 --> 0:52:09.240 Agreed. 0:52:09.800 --> 0:52:12.320 If you want to send us a great email about 0:52:12.320 --> 0:52:14.759 how We're magic. You can hang out with us on 0:52:14.800 --> 0:52:17.399 social media. Just go to our website stuff you Should 0:52:17.440 --> 0:52:19.400 Know dot com, and you can also send us an 0:52:19.440 --> 0:52:24.400 email to Stuff podcast at HowStuffWorks dot com. 0:52:25.840 --> 0:52:28.480 Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:52:28.640 --> 0:52:31.840 For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 0:52:32.000 --> 0:52:34.960 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.