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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's me Josham. For this week's select I've

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Speaker 1: chosen our twenty eighteen episode how police Lineups Work. It's

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Speaker 1: one of those things that you just kind of know

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Speaker 1: about and then you find out about it and you

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Speaker 1: say to yourself, how are we doing this. It's a

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Speaker 1: great episode. I think you'll enjoy it. So sit back, relax,

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Speaker 1: and get ready for police Lineups.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's

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Speaker 1: Charles w Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry out there outside the fishbowl,

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Speaker 1: and also there's guest producer Noel and our pal Ben.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I'm in the room this time, man, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: on the mic. Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 2: This is way better than that time you have me

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Speaker 2: on the April Fools episode.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you brought that up because I may

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Speaker 1: remember Ben from that. I think it was two thousand

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Speaker 1: thirteen or fifteen something, ungodly time ago.

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Speaker 4: It's my replacement.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was an April Fool's joke for the three

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Speaker 1: D printing episode. So this is your second time on

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, the Internet shredg you Ben was it were they

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Speaker 5: were you like a target of abuse.

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Speaker 2: I want to thank everybody for the very polite emails,

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Speaker 2: and as we could tell, thankfully, Chuck is fine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they took it easy on them. Okay, we have

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Speaker 1: very nice listeners, you know. And then Nol, this might

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Speaker 1: be the first time you're ever speaking on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: even though you've guest produced it like a million times.

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Speaker 3: I think I may have mumbled something in the background

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Speaker 3: the time. It really wow wow, Josh. So we're having

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Speaker 3: you two on.

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Speaker 1: Let's cut, let's get down of business, because you two

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Speaker 1: have a podcast together, right, Uh, Noel, you also run

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Speaker 1: mini Crush movie Crush.

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Speaker 3: It's true. Yeah, you're also in a real world's colliding

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Speaker 3: right now.

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Speaker 1: Right, there's a lot I'm going over them all. You're

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Speaker 1: on stuff they don't want you to know. But you

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Speaker 1: two Ben and Knowl have come together and made ridiculous history,

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Speaker 1: which is awesome.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 4: We're just missing God.

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Speaker 1: I'm starting to sweat. But you guys are on ridiculous

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Speaker 1: history together. We are, Yeah, tell us about that.

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Speaker 2: Uh So history is full of these cartoonish bizarre events

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Speaker 2: often not covered in your typical history class.

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Speaker 3: Sounds familiar, right.

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Speaker 2: Because for one reason or another, people thought, that's no way,

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Speaker 2: that didn't really happen. The first recorded instance of a

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Speaker 2: mooning did not result in the death of hundreds of people.

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Speaker 3: It's surely not, surely not, but it did.

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Speaker 5: It did, It did, And surely the US government did

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Speaker 5: not have a plan to shoot a nuclear missile at

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Speaker 5: the moon.

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Speaker 3: Right, that was just a Mister Shows sketch. Surely not,

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Speaker 3: but she also was. It was kind of parallel thinking.

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Speaker 5: Is the Mister Show sketch happened before this story became declassified?

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Speaker 3: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: It is?

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Speaker 4: Nine yep.

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Speaker 2: So our continuing mission with ridiculous history, not to sound.

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Speaker 3: Too star treky about it.

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Speaker 2: Is to find those moments, the bizarre people, places, and

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Speaker 2: things throughout the span of human civilization that at least

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Speaker 2: crack the both of us up on.

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Speaker 3: A continual basis.

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Speaker 2: And sometimes we do have to stop recording just for

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Speaker 2: a second because we're so tickled.

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Speaker 1: Do you really, Yeah, Wow, that's that's actually high quality,

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Speaker 1: mainly because we tickle each other.

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Speaker 3: I got to physically. Yeah, that's cheating, man. You're making

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Speaker 3: it sound so serious. It's actually a lot of fun.

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Speaker 4: It is.

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Speaker 3: It's a fun show. Right, Oh yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.

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Speaker 5: I mean I'm giving been a hard time, but yeah,

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Speaker 5: that's definitely like we touch on from time to time.

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Speaker 3: It it'll go into a heavier territory.

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Speaker 5: Like, for example, we did an episode about how women

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Speaker 5: in Kansas in the nineteen twenties were imprisoned in labor

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Speaker 5: camps for having STDs. What that certainly falls under ridiculous

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Speaker 5: not exactly fun or funny.

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Speaker 3: Right haha, ridiculous. So it's it's it's all of those things.

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Speaker 5: Some of them are you know, crack you up hilarious

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Speaker 5: moments like Napoleon Bonaparte getting attacked by bunnies or you know,

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Speaker 5: the aforementioned SDT labor camps, or.

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Speaker 2: The racist special Olympics that were held here in the States.

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Speaker 2: And we're a complete, well to borrow phrase we use

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Speaker 2: on the show, a complete ship show.

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Speaker 1: So so wait a minute, I think you are, like,

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Speaker 1: you need to name the state that hosted that.

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Speaker 3: Oh it was Saint Louis. Yeah, Saint Louis.

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Speaker 5: And it's because the World's Fair was happening in Saint

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Speaker 5: Louis and they were going to have it in Chicago.

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Speaker 5: But the people hosting the World's Fair said, if you

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Speaker 5: don't do your Olympics as part of the World's Fair,

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Speaker 5: we're going to totally blow you out of the water

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Speaker 5: with how awesome our World's Fair is.

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Speaker 3: And no one's going to come to your Olympics.

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Speaker 5: And scared them in the early days of like, you know,

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Speaker 5: not the earliest days of the Olympics, when they brought

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Speaker 5: it back like in the you know, it was not

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Speaker 5: ancient Rome.

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Speaker 3: It was not in fact ancient Rome.

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Speaker 2: And it was also it was not a good example

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Speaker 2: of the Olympics either, because the white supremacists who were

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Speaker 2: in charge of the whole shebang decided that this would

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Speaker 2: be the perfect time to prove their cockamamie ideas.

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Speaker 5: Of like eugenics, ideas of kind of like white superiority,

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Speaker 5: and like they would have indigenous people competing in these

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Speaker 5: Olympic events. Of course, they didn't teach them how to

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Speaker 5: you know, do the events, so they didn't just automatically

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Speaker 5: know how to pull vault or throw a javelin or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And when supremacists can ruin anything, anything they put their

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Speaker 1: hands on, they really can't just turns to poop.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are doing an episode on flatulence later, so

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Speaker 2: stay tuned with you that there.

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Speaker 1: So before we give everything away, you guys, tell everyone

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Speaker 1: where they can find ridiculous history and win.

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Speaker 2: You can find ridiculous history at our website.

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Speaker 3: It's ridiculous History show.

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Speaker 5: I think so the website, guys definitely can't prepared for this.

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Speaker 3: I've got a stack of notes right here here, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Rolling back.

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Speaker 2: So you can find us on Apple Podcast, you find

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Speaker 2: us on Spotify. You can find us wherever you find

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Speaker 2: your favorite shows, like stuff you should know or stuff

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Speaker 2: they'll want you to know, or I should I list

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Speaker 2: the entire pantheon of all the shows we have. It's

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Speaker 2: too many at this point, but but yes, you can

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Speaker 2: find us in all of those places. We also have

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Speaker 2: a community page that we're really proud of and really

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Speaker 2: happy with, called Ridiculous Historians on Facebook.

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Speaker 3: Taking a total cue from the cisk army. Yeah nice.

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Speaker 1: Well, First of all, thank you for all of the

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Speaker 1: flattery that you've been heaping on us for the last

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Speaker 1: few minutes. It's much appreciated. But also thank you for

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Speaker 1: coming by. Appreciate it, guys.

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Speaker 3: Thank you guys for having yes yank so much.

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Speaker 1: Let's do this every week.

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Speaker 3: That might be a let me check the sketch.

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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I love those guys, but I'm

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Speaker 1: glad to get out of that that new studio box.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's like a Fema trailer man. It's formaldehyde

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Speaker 1: wafting off slowly poisoning us. It is still off gassing.

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Speaker 1: It feels like, yeah, big time. It's in my hair, yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is now falling out.

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Speaker 4: We're in bad shape. Well before, I like what you're wearing.

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Speaker 4: By the way, thank you.

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Speaker 1: I spilled a tremendous amount of coffee on myself and

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Speaker 1: luckily I had a bunch of samples of our new

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Speaker 1: T shirt.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and this is not a just to plug everyone.

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Speaker 6: Josh is literally wearing a Lewis the Child Skeptic T

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Speaker 6: shirt from the Stuff you Should Know store. Yeah, because

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Speaker 6: they sent us every shirt. I'm like, oh, great, to

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Speaker 6: the guy who has one hundred T shirts, here's twenty more.

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Speaker 1: But they are pretty cool. I'm pretty happy with.

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Speaker 4: This, Like, yeah, that's cool.

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Speaker 3: The size of it.

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Speaker 1: Look at the size. It's a perfect size. It's not

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Speaker 1: so big that it wraps around and gets all mangled

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Speaker 1: by my love handles. But it's also not so small

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Speaker 1: that it looks like, you know, a caved in chest.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: I didn't remember that reference though.

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Speaker 1: I didn't either like they listened to the Pie Piper episode.

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Speaker 1: Oh there you go.

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Speaker 4: That sounds like a you thing, Yeah, Josh, But.

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Speaker 1: It was just an offhanded comment I made. Now it's

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Speaker 1: a T shirt I'm wearing, which is I love. It

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Speaker 1: makes a pretty great time to be alive.

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Speaker 6: By the way, I need to give a shout out

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Speaker 6: to Brittany Schiff. Brittany Schiff sent this idea to us.

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Speaker 6: Oh okay, great, And the reason, you know, we don't

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Speaker 6: often take well that's not true. We kind of keep

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Speaker 6: a kitty of listener suggestions, but we don't often like

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Speaker 6: do one the next week and then shout out the person. Sure,

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Speaker 6: but I thought we had fully exhausted our Crime and

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Speaker 6: Punishment series.

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Speaker 1: Nope.

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Speaker 6: So I was delighted that Brittany Shiff sent this in

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Speaker 6: and I was like, why haven't we done police line up?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it's a great question.

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Speaker 4: Was just sitting there, yeah, waiting.

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Speaker 1: Yep. The only other one that's left is what kind

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Speaker 1: of shoes detectives wear?

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Speaker 3: That is?

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Speaker 1: That's the last one? You know what means is this? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's gum shoe or crape sold I think.

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Speaker 4: You knew that, yeah, but I don't know how it

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Speaker 4: relates to cops.

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Speaker 1: I guess they wore those because they were so comfortable.

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Speaker 1: Cops are always walking around walking, yeah, you know, but

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Speaker 1: sometimes when they're walking, they're actually out on the street

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Speaker 1: looking for people who resemble a suspect that they have

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Speaker 1: in the jailhouse. And they say, hey, you come on

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Speaker 1: over here, how'd you like to make ten bucks? And

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Speaker 1: the person says exactly how copper and the cop says,

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Speaker 1: by standing in is what we call a filler in

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Speaker 1: a police lineup.

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Speaker 6: Or they do like Emer Simpson and when they're like

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Speaker 6: a boat raffle that they said he had to come

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Speaker 6: down to the police station.

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Speaker 1: Yeah he won a boat. Yeah, and then they beat

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Speaker 1: him merciless for like parking unpaid parking tickets.

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Speaker 6: Also shout out to Beth at Shuster, who wrote this

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Speaker 6: article in the NIJ Journal the National Institute of Justice.

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Speaker 1: I believe so, is that right? Yeah, they're pretty much

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Speaker 1: committed to keeping people from being wrongly convicted. So I

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Speaker 1: would guess the JAY stands for justice.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and this is a good start. And we had

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Speaker 6: some other stuff we added to it. But thank you Ms. Schuster,

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Speaker 6: yeah for your work.

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Speaker 1: Yep. Well, I already led into the episode and it

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Speaker 1: didn't take, So let me try again. This nij article

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Speaker 1: you sent calls out a dude named Jerry Miller, who

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Speaker 1: back in nineteen eighty one was twenty two years old,

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Speaker 1: I believe, and Jerry Miller had a particularly bad day

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Speaker 1: when he was arrested and he was charged with robbing, kidnapping,

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Speaker 1: and raping a woman. Yeah, and he got convicted. He

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Speaker 1: was convicted because two people, two eyewitnesses, saw him in

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Speaker 1: a lineup picked him out, and then later at trial

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Speaker 1: the victim said, maybe that's him, maybe it's not, but

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Speaker 1: who cares. There's two eyewitnesses that picked the schmoe out

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Speaker 1: of a lineup. He's done. Yeah, he did twenty four

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Speaker 1: years in prison. And you may notice from the tone

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Speaker 1: that I'm using here he was wrongfully convicted.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He actually got out of prison and was living life

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Speaker 1: for leased on parole, wearing an ankle bracelet, a monitor constantly.

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Speaker 4: As a registered sex offender.

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Speaker 1: Right, and then finally I think, oh, I'm not quite sure. Oh,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. In two thousand and seven, as

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Speaker 1: part of the Innocence Project, Yeah, which we've done an

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Speaker 1: episode on with.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that lady what is her name?

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Speaker 1: Oh, Hauleen.

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Speaker 4: I don't want to say Laurville, but it's definitely not

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Speaker 4: Paula is on.

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Speaker 3: Paula is on.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, Jerry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wanted to say Pauli Shore so bad. I

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Speaker 1: just knew it was wrong. But we did Incent right,

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Speaker 1: we did it Innocence Project episode And under the Innocence Project,

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Speaker 1: Jerry Miller was exonerated through DNA evidence. He incontrovertibly did

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Speaker 1: not do this and lost twenty four years of his

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Speaker 1: life because of flawed eyewitness testimony.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and so you know, this is all about police

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Speaker 6: lineups and more about I mean, we'll tell you how

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Speaker 6: they work in a general sense, but this is sort

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Speaker 6: of more about how you know, it's such an imperfect system.

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Speaker 6: But sort of the takeaway from all of this that

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Speaker 6: we're about to go over with all the studies and

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Speaker 6: the trying different things, is kind of like, you know,

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Speaker 6: it's an imperfect system and we can try and craft

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Speaker 6: it the best way we can, but human memory is imperfect.

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Speaker 6: Identifying people in lineups is imperfect, right, and we're just

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Speaker 6: it's kind of the best we got right now.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, a lot of people are like, get rid

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Speaker 1: of eyewitness testimony really all together, yes, all together. Humans

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Speaker 1: suck at eyewitness testimony. And there's a lot of reasons

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Speaker 1: why it's not like people are out there like I

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Speaker 1: want to have me a bad guy, show me a lineup.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna pick one of those guys out. They're not

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Speaker 1: doing that. They're subject to basically the way our brains

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Speaker 1: are wired. We don't walk around videotaping everything that we see,

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Speaker 1: you know, we get constantly bombarded with sensory information, and

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Speaker 1: under normal circumstances, you see a stranger on the street,

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Speaker 1: you just see there's another human. I've identified them as

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Speaker 1: not a threat and keep walking by it. If that

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Speaker 1: person turned out to be accused of a crime or

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Speaker 1: perpetrated a crime, and you were brought in to say

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Speaker 1: was this the person you saw? Your brain is going

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Speaker 1: to try to reconstruct what little pieces of memory it

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Speaker 1: formed of that person. And there's a lot of things,

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Speaker 1: a lot of factors that are involved that can make

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Speaker 1: that really difficult task even harder.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, Like I am someone who has told myself Chuck

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Speaker 6: pay attention. Like, if you're ever in a situation like

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Speaker 6: pay attention, try and collect yourself and try and remember

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Speaker 6: a few really good details about the car or the person.

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Speaker 4: So like this is on my mind.

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Speaker 6: And I actually had a situation when I lived in

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Speaker 6: LA happened to me where I had to go through

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Speaker 6: a police lineup and I failed.

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Speaker 1: Oh really, was the suspect there?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 6: Well no, here's here's the quick version. Is I was

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Speaker 6: in a hit and run. This lady, these two lady,

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Speaker 6: these two younger girls, they were probably teenagers, hit me

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Speaker 6: from behind.

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Speaker 4: In my car.

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Speaker 6: I stopped my car starting to get out, and they

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Speaker 6: take off, so it's a hit and run. I chase them,

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Speaker 6: which is you should not do.

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Speaker 1: No. Were you shooting into the air again to slow down,

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Speaker 1: trying to shoot out their tires?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 6: But I did chase them because I was so mad

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Speaker 6: and you're adrenaline just shoots through the roof when something

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Speaker 6: like that happens, so immediately you're just not yourself and

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Speaker 6: like recording details. So I was trying to catch up

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Speaker 6: to get a license plate. I saw that they went

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Speaker 6: down the street that I knew was a dead end.

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Speaker 3: Like I got them now.

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Speaker 6: It wasn't a cul de sac, but it functioned like

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Speaker 6: a cul de sac. So I stopped where I was

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Speaker 6: got out of the car. Sure enough, twenty seconds later,

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Speaker 6: they come houling but back toward me, and the look

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Speaker 6: on their faces was like you know, oh, snap, there's

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Speaker 6: the guy. And they just sped right past me. And

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Speaker 6: I saw their faces as they sped past me in

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Speaker 6: their car. The cops found the car, found the people,

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Speaker 6: and they're like, we didn't do that, and so.

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Speaker 3: Who are these girls? These teenagers?

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Speaker 4: Well that's the long and short of it. Is all

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Speaker 4: you have to do and something like that.

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Speaker 6: I say, didn't do it, and if I can't pick

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Speaker 6: you out, then you get away.

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Speaker 4: And they showed me pictures.

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Speaker 6: Of like, you know, these were like teenage young teenage

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Speaker 6: Hispanic women. They showed me probably probably fifteen pictures and

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Speaker 6: said can you identify them? I was like no, it

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Speaker 6: was a month ago. They sped past me for a second,

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Speaker 6: like I couldn't even hazard a guess, and I didn't

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Speaker 6: want to do that.

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Speaker 1: You know, well that's very sensible of you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I just didn't want to take a stab at it.

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Speaker 6: So I was like, no, I have no idea, and

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Speaker 6: they're basically like sorry, They said they didn't do it.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 4: It's like, but you have the car.

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Speaker 6: And it's damaged, and like none of that matters. They're like, no,

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Speaker 6: not if you can't identify.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I could see that. They could be like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that happened some other times, I know, and some other

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Speaker 1: hit and run.

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Speaker 4: I mean, but yeah.

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Speaker 6: The long story short though, is I'm someone who has

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Speaker 6: tried to tell myself to react in the right ways,

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Speaker 6: and I couldn't tell them much beyond like the color

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Speaker 6: of the car and sort of what it looked.

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Speaker 3: Like because you were seeing red.

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Speaker 1: Because you're right, that's that our bodies are not prime

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Speaker 1: to form memories. It's not where our energy. It's more

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Speaker 1: like getting away or shooting out the tires of a

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Speaker 1: car that just hit and ran. Right, But what you

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Speaker 1: did with that lineup is the other side of the coin.

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Speaker 1: The other problem with lineups is or eyewitness testimony from lineups,

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Speaker 1: is that sometimes people pick out people who are innocent,

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Speaker 1: and other times people fail to pick out the people

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Speaker 1: who are actually the perpetrators.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it's like you said, they're very They're very flawed.

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Speaker 1: It's a flawed system. The problem is is the wrong

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Speaker 1: people can go to jail and the people who actually

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Speaker 1: did it can get away with it. So that's an

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Speaker 1: extremely flawed system. And when something that important is on

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Speaker 1: the table, then it needs to be fixed. And there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people looking into how it can be fixed,

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Speaker 1: but we're not there yet by any stretch.

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Speaker 6: No, And here's a stat you were talking about the

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Speaker 6: DNA exoneration, seventy five percent of the first one and

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Speaker 6: eighty three exonerations in the US were wrongfully convicted because

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Speaker 6: of eyewitness testimony and police lineups.

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Speaker 4: Say it again, seventy.

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Speaker 1: Five seventy five percent of the first one hundred and

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Speaker 1: eighty three. So, like, the Innocence Project is basically like

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Speaker 1: a pilot study to show through DNA exoneration all the

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Speaker 1: ways that we wrongfully convict people. And what is coming

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Speaker 1: to the front is eyewitness testimony.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and at the basis of that is the police lineup, right.

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Speaker 1: And one other thing that's that's problematic with the eyewitness

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Speaker 1: testimony is if you want to wow a jury, bring

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Speaker 1: out an eyewitness who seems totally sure that what they

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Speaker 1: saw or that they saw the person they're pointing to

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Speaker 1: and the defendants.

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Speaker 6: Table yeah, or that that dramatic moment it's like a

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Speaker 6: movie trope. Now, you know, is the person in this room.

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Speaker 1: Right, Let the record show that this witness is pointing

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Speaker 1: at the defendant, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the problem is it has a huge impact, but

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Speaker 1: it's also so really cruddy wit, really cruddy evidence. There's

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Speaker 1: this guy he he had a great quote.

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Speaker 3: He says that.

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Speaker 1: Eyewitness testimony is a very unusual, complex kind of trace evidence,

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Speaker 1: and it's difficult to recover, easy to contaminate, and very

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Speaker 1: hard to handle. Yeah, and that just there's no better

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Speaker 1: description of eyewitness testimony.

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Speaker 6: If I was ever in court and someone identified me

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Speaker 6: from the witness stand, I would do that thing where

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Speaker 6: you look at behind you when they pointed at you,

396
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Speaker 6: just be like, I think they're talking about that guy

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Speaker 6: behind me, and they would say no, and they would

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Speaker 6: point again, and I would move a little bit more and.

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Speaker 4: Be like, this is this witness is clearly disturbed.

400
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Speaker 1: And then if that, if that didn't work, you would

401
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,480
Speaker 1: escalate to I'm rubber and you're glued.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that usually works, right.

403
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Speaker 1: So there's a couple of other things that makes eyewitness

404
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:58,919
Speaker 1: testimony problematic, Chuck. In addition to not being like human

405
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Speaker 1: video recorders.

406
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Speaker 4: There are human vs.

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Speaker 1: There are. There are circumstances, especially surrounding a crime, that

408
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Speaker 1: can make it really difficult to remember. If you're in

409
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Speaker 1: a fight or flight situation, yeah, you're not forming memories.

410
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Speaker 1: If there's a weapon, there are people tend to focus

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Speaker 1: on the weapon.

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Speaker 4: Sure you.

413
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Speaker 1: Me was mugged once and the opposite happened to her.

414
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Speaker 1: She remember what the person looked like, but she didn't

415
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Speaker 1: even remember that there was a weapon. And her friends

416
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,520
Speaker 1: are like, yeah, there was a gun. Interesting, Yeah, and

417
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Speaker 1: she went to a lineup and like picked the guy

418
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Speaker 1: out and yummy's bulletproof, so she is, So she's like,

419
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Speaker 1: take your gun and shove it. I'm not even going

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Speaker 1: to recognize it.

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Speaker 4: No, but that makes sense.

422
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Speaker 6: If someone pulls a gun on you, or has a

423
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Speaker 6: switchblade or some other kind of creepy weapon, the human

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Speaker 6: instinct is to focus your attention on that thing pointed

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Speaker 6: at you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and apparently people can really describe the weapon, right,

427
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Speaker 1: But you're focusing on the weapon. You're not focused on

428
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Speaker 1: the person who is holding the weapon typically.

429
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Speaker 4: Which helps a little bit, but not as much as

430
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Speaker 4: the face.

431
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Speaker 1: Right. And then another problem is if you are say

432
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Speaker 1: an Hispanic dude, and you're a witness to a crime,

433
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Speaker 1: and it's a white guy who's the perpetrator, You're going

434
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Speaker 1: to have a tremendous amount of difficulty picking that white

435
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Speaker 1: guy out, as sad as it is to say, from

436
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 1: a lineup of other white guys. Yeah, because eyewitness testimony

437
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,680
Speaker 1: that crosses race or ethnicities is known to be very

438
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 1: unreliable because it's just more difficult for somebody of an

439
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:38,639
Speaker 1: ethnicity or a race to separate or identify people of

440
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Speaker 1: another ethnicity or race.

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00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,359
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I don't think it's the case where people

442
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Speaker 6: are like, all white people look the same to me,

443
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:49,199
Speaker 6: it's just weird brain science, right, you know, right, you

444
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 6: just have a harder time.

445
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 1: From way back when we were basically tuktook and Tuktok

446
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 1: lived with fifteen other people that look just like him

447
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 1: because they'd all been inbreeding for generations and generations, and

448
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 1: they had to be on the lookout for another group

449
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 1: of people who've been inbreeding for generations and generations that

450
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 1: wanted their jackfruit tree that they live by.

451
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 4: What's jack fruit? Oh?

452
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 1: That word jack fruits, the big huge thing, the big

453
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: huge one. Yeah, it actually makes a killer barbecue vehicle.

454
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,679
Speaker 1: Uhreded like shredded pork vegan stand in.

455
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,159
Speaker 4: Oh okay, it's really good. Gotcha, gotcha?

456
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 6: All right, let's take a break and we'll talk about

457
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 6: the fundamentals of the run of the mill police lineup.

458
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 4: Right after this.

459
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 6: All right, so, run of the mill police lineups. I

460
00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 6: mentioned that before we left. Everyone's seen movies and TV shows,

461
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 6: and it's not too far off. Actually, I mean, there

462
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,160
Speaker 6: are a couple of ways you can do it. There

463
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 6: are lineups where you'd look at someone in front of

464
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 6: your face, and then there are lineups like I had

465
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 6: in La where I look at photographs the ones. You know,

466
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 6: it's way more sexy for a TV show or a

467
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 6: movie to line them up in the traditional.

468
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,199
Speaker 1: Way, right, it's extraordinarily sexy, like a live police lineup

469
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: like you see on TV.

470
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 6: Sure, and then they're the simultaneous or sequential. There's a

471
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 6: lot of debate, which we'll get into in a minute,

472
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 6: about which is best. To me, it's pretty obvious that

473
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 6: sequential is best. Simultaneous is the one that you see

474
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 6: on TV. They line up six or seven dudes or

475
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 6: ladies and you identify them usually, well, it depends. We'll

476
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 6: get into the fillers or the foils, but only usually

477
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 6: only one of those people is a suspect.

478
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 1: In like the best ideal version of it.

479
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 4: Right.

480
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 6: Then there's sequential, and that's when they bring out one

481
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 6: person at a time and bring out like seven guys,

482
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:02,679
Speaker 6: just one at a time, and you say, you know,

483
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 6: let me know at the end of this which one

484
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 6: you think it was, or.

485
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 3: If it's a photo lineup, they show you one photo

486
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 3: at a time.

487
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:08,360
Speaker 4: Exactly.

488
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with you. I think sequential is head

489
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: and shoulders the better one of the of the two.

490
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

491
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 6: And here's the final little piece of how it can

492
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 6: vary is whether or not the administrator, that the person

493
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 6: that's in charge of administrating the lineup knows who the

494
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 6: purp is or not.

495
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a big one, man.

496
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 6: So it's either double blind, which means that they don't

497
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 6: even know. And to me, it seems obvious that that's

498
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 6: always the best way, because there are many many circumstances

499
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,719
Speaker 6: where you would actually even if you don't want to

500
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 6: or mean to lead a witness. And one example they

501
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 6: gave here in this article is if they say, and

502
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 6: if they identify a filler or a foil aka a

503
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 6: person that was paid ten bucks say that's the person.

504
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 6: The administrator might.

505
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 4: Say take your time, Yeah, are you sure like you

506
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 4: really need to take.

507
00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 1: Your time, which is basically like saying row.

508
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 4: Pretty much, they just.

509
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 1: Or conversely, if when they're doing it sequentially, when they

510
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: get to like number four, they're like, whoa, get a

511
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: load of this guy. Huh geez, look at that bag character.

512
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 4: He's guilty of something.

513
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 1: But they can't like even just a smile or something

514
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 1: like that.

515
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 4: Off like a nonverbal que you don't even mean to.

516
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: Do, right, or you may mean to do because you

517
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 1: know that that's the guy, and you know it in

518
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 1: your bones that that guy did it, and you're leading

519
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: the witness, right, it can be some some sort of

520
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 1: nonverbal gesture. The problem is is that most people, I

521
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: can't say most people, but it's been shown that some people,

522
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: when they're brought in as a witness for a police lineup,

523
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: feel like it's their role. It's their job to pick

524
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: somebody for the cops. So they're more than happy to

525
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 1: be led by the cops because then they're fulfilling their

526
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: role and they did what they were supposed to do.

527
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 1: So another another technique or way to administer a good

528
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: lineup is to say, here, here's the lineup, whether it's sequential,

529
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: one at a time or.

530
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 4: All at once simultaneous.

531
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: Yet right, the suspect may or may not be in

532
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 1: this lineup.

533
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, that seems like I think they found that reduced

534
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 6: mistaken identity rates were lower when they did this, So

535
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 6: you would think just always do that right, right.

536
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: Because it says to the witness like the person may

537
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: not be in here. It's like a none of the above,

538
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: the dreaded letter e none of the above. You're like,

539
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: oh God, does that? Does that mean that they're that

540
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 1: the answer is not here? And so you may you

541
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: may say I don't I don't see them where. If

542
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: they don't say that, you're going to presume that the

543
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: suspect is in that lineup, right, and it's your job

544
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: to find that person and you have to pick somebody. Yeah,

545
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: most people aren't going to think like, I can't say so,

546
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: I'm just not going to They're gonna be like three.

547
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 6: Yeah, Well, first of all, it's a crime against you

548
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 6: most a lot of times when you're like picking out

549
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 6: this purp.

550
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: Sure.

551
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, so you want them to be you know, found

552
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 6: or whatever.

553
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point too.

554
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 6: You want you don't want them to get away with it.

555
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 6: And the other thing too, is I think there's a

556
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 6: natural human instinct when given a test to not want

557
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 6: to say I can't like you might feel like you

558
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 6: have failed.

559
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: Right. That's why I admire you saying that, like with

560
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: the phone lineup, you know, not not being not just

561
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: being like.

562
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 4: This these two right.

563
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, But if it that wouldn't matter to my case,

564
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 6: because if I would have said these two and if

565
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 6: they're like, na, that's not the lady whose car it was.

566
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 3: But a lot of people still would have right, right, right,

567
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 3: And they probably.

568
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: Wouldn't say no, that's wrong. They would have been like, Okay,

569
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: thanks a lot for your time or whatever, and then

570
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: you would have left and they'd.

571
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 3: Been like, god, he was so close.

572
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 6: Some other research, it's interesting that suggests when there is

573
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 6: a defender in the lineup that young children and elderly

574
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 6: perform about as well as just regularly young adults. But

575
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 6: when the lineup does not have the actual offender, then

576
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 6: they commit mistakes a lot higher. And to me, that's

577
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 6: just because I think kids and elderly might not fully understand.

578
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 4: I think they have to pick.

579
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: Somebody, Okay, yeah, I agree. I think that's exactly what

580
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 1: it is too.

581
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 4: But the research bears that out. It looks like.

582
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: Right, So there's there is some like you talked about research,

583
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: there's a lot of research in this, but it's become ambiguous.

584
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: Right If you step back and you listen to all

585
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: of the different different things that you can do with

586
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: a lineup, it becomes very clear that a sequential double

587
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: blind lineup where either one photo of a suspect is

588
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: shown to the person at a time, or one live

589
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: suspect is brought out to be looked at one person

590
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 1: at a time, yeah, and is administered by a cop

591
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: or a worker or somebody who doesn't know who the

592
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: suspect is. That that's going to reduce the chance of

593
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: a misidentification or a failure of an identification, and that

594
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: the person who's being presented with these people is not

595
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: going to be able to guess and if they actually

596
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: do remember who the perpetrator was, they're going to recognize them.

597
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: It's just obvious that that's the best way to do it, right.

598
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: The thing is is there was a study in Illinois

599
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: that just completely rocked that idea that that's the case,

600
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: because there was a three or five year study in

601
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: Illinois that looked at different types of lineups and compared

602
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: them side by side and found that actually know that

603
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: a double blind sequential lineup actually produces worse results than

604
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: a simultaneous, non double blind one.

605
00:29:58,920 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 4: Right.

606
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 6: But and then again not so fast with that, because

607
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 6: other people since then have questioned the methodology they used

608
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 6: in that program and kind of said, you know, I

609
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 6: don't even know if we can take this research and

610
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 6: take these statistics seriously.

611
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: Right, because methodologically it was a screwed up study, Like

612
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: they really dropped the ball on the study.

613
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I don't think we mentioned the two judgments either.

614
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 6: During simultaneous lineups, when everyone's standing there together, use what's

615
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 6: called relative judgment. In other words, you compare all the

616
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 6: dudes standing up there against one another, and with the

617
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 6: ones where they trot them out one at a time,

618
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 6: they use something called absolute judgment, which is supposedly means

619
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 6: that they're comparing it to only their memory and not

620
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 6: to the people that came before or after.

621
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: Right, that's the hope, that's the ideal, right.

622
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 6: Right, But with this reasearch in research and the study,

623
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 6: I kind of didn't even know what to think because

624
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 6: it sort of went against the grain and the findings.

625
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 6: But then they said, I don't even know if we

626
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 6: can trust these findings because the methodology was no good, right,

627
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 6: So we ended up sort of back at square one

628
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 6: with the Illinois pilot program.

629
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: It seems like, yeah, the reason why the method methodology

630
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: was so terrible. They used the double blind procedure for

631
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: sequential lineups, but they didn't use it for simultaneous lineups.

632
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: So if cops were advertently or inadvertently leading people with

633
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: simultaneous lineups, then of course those are going to produce

634
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: correct choices with suspects better than the one that's a

635
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: double blind sequential one. They compared apples to oranges in

636
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: this study. It's almost like a sixth grader came up

637
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: with how to actually conduct this study that the Illinois

638
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: legislature said, Illinois State Police, go go figure this out.

639
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: Do a three year study on this, and they came

640
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: back and said, huh yeah, and it was. It's terrible.

641
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: And the problem is is if it is true that

642
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: a sequential double blind study is the way to go,

643
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: that it is just smarter and works better, that study

644
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: set that back by years because now all the cops

645
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: all over the country heardh they did the study and

646
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: it's actually worse not and the design of the study

647
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: was flawed methodologically, just it doesn't work.

648
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 4: Yeah.

649
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 6: They even went to the cops at the Illinois pilot program,

650
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 6: talked to them, and they said the majority of the

651
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 6: officers said they didn't think that it was superior and

652
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 6: said that witnesses who can identify the offender can do

653
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 6: so under either procedure, and officers express concerns that using

654
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 6: a blind administrator disrupts the relationship an investigator has tries

655
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 6: to build with a witness. So I interpret all that

656
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 6: as it's cops saying, can we just keep doing it

657
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 6: the way we've always done it?

658
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it gets results right. But the thing is

659
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: is they have some pretty good points in that if

660
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: you are running a lineup or whatever, you put together

661
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: like a six pack is what it's called in the US,

662
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: where you've got three and three mugshots of people and

663
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: or I think in Canada they usually use twelve. But

664
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: you put this thing together, then you have to find

665
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: like a patrol officer or a sergeant or somebody who

666
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: has no idea what's going on with your kids?

667
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 4: You want to do a double blind, right.

668
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: And then those that person has to go to the house,

669
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: record the the what the person did, and then come

670
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,959
Speaker 1: back and tell you. It's just an extra thing that

671
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: cops are like, come on, dude, this is just making

672
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: it way too hard.

673
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean they said in here that sometimes they

674
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 6: even have trouble coming up with the blind administrator, and

675
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 6: maybe it's a It probably has everything to do with budgets.

676
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 6: My thought is like, why isn't there one person that

677
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 6: does only this.

678
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a great question.

679
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 4: That just is called the administrator.

680
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 6: Right, and then so the line of administrator and goes

681
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 6: to the people's houses or runs them in the precinct

682
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 6: or whatever, and this is the only thing that they do, right,

683
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 6: I'll do.

684
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: It, bring in the administrator.

685
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a TV show waiting to have it. Sure, Yeah,

686
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 4: I don't know. It's probably budgetary.

687
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: Its got to be.

688
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,439
Speaker 6: They also found with a lot of these when there's

689
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 6: multiple purpse, it just goes haywire. Yeah, because sometimes they'll

690
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 6: put two of the purpose in the same lineup right, right,

691
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 6: just super confusing.

692
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: That actually falls in line with like how to build

693
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: like a decent line up the right way and we'll

694
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: cover that and where they get people to stand in

695
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: as suspects right after this. All right, Chuck, So you

696
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: were just talking about how if you have lineup and

697
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: you put two suspects that you've got, say, there are

698
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: two guys who rob some lady, and you have five

699
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: people in the lineup, but two of them are your suspects.

700
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 1: That actually is totally unfair for the suspects because what

701
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: you've done just then is increase the chance that somebody

702
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 1: could guess, just guess randomly at the suspect. Right.

703
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, If you have five.

704
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 1: People in a lineup and one of them are the suspect,

705
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: then that person has a one in five chance of

706
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 1: being chosen by random chance. But if there's two suspects

707
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: in a five person lineup, they have a two out

708
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: of five chance, which is way more than a one

709
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: in five chance. Some people might even say double the chance, right,

710
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: And so it's just less fair. So one of the

711
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 1: standards that you want to fulfill if you're putting together

712
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: a lineup in your cop is that you have one

713
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: suspect per lineup, which is tougher to do than you

714
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: would think.

715
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it seems like a lot of The problem

716
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 6: with this is, and they even say so in the

717
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 6: NIJ articles, that lab studies are one thing, but actually

718
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 6: implementing this in the field they get different results. And

719
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 6: people are doing lab research on one end, cops are

720
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 6: out in the field, sometimes they're in people's home, sometimes

721
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,439
Speaker 6: they're in the precinct. And it seems like the two

722
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 6: heads aren't talking very much, right, And there are people,

723
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,919
Speaker 6: you know, they did like a live web chat at

724
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 6: some point to bring together all these experts from around

725
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 6: the world, and they kind of all around me were like,

726
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 6: this is a big mess and we need to all

727
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 6: combine forces to try and do the right thing. And

728
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 6: the feeling I get is that a lot of these

729
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 6: police precincts just kind of want to be left alone.

730
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: Sure, I mean, they know what works, and it works,

731
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 1: you know, but does it well, that's the question.

732
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 4: Right. So they fingered a collar, right, is that the.

733
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: Right the gumsh you finger to call it?

734
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, then it's all in a good day's work. They

735
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,479
Speaker 6: finger the wrong collar, then it's no good.

736
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: It's still all in. So one of the reasons it's

737
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: that somebody cop would put a two suspects in a lineup.

738
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: It's not just to increase the chances that one of

739
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: those suspects gets picked by an eyewitness. It's because sometimes

740
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: it can be hard to come up with people for

741
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 1: a lineup.

742
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 6: Yeah, this was hard to believe, Like, just they can't

743
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 6: find people sometimes.

744
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: Right, Well, and the reason why is because let's say

745
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: you have multiple witnesses, and each witness gives you a

746
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: different description of the perpetrator, right, right, Ideally you're going

747
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: to find a different lineup for each witness.

748
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, Like, if there's three witnesses, you should run three lineups, right,

749
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 6: because their descriptions are probably somewhat different.

750
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: Right. That can be difficult, right, And there's a couple

751
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: of ways to handle a lineup. You can do a

752
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: suspect matched lineup, where you've got a suspect and to

753
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: keep your suspect from standing out, you make all the

754
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 1: other people in the lineup look like you know your suspect. Yeah,

755
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: that's one way to do it. Another is to do

756
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: the perpetrator description match strategy, which is you've got.

757
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 4: And that's when you have no suspect, right, just witness accounts.

758
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: You can have a suspect, but you're creating your lineup

759
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: based on what the what the witness has described the perpetrator.

760
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 4: To look like, and then just throw the suspect in there, right.

761
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: Which can be bad for the suspect because if the suspect,

762
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: the person you actually think did it, doesn't look anything

763
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: like the eyewitness said. There's going to be four redheads

764
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: and the one blonde guy who's actually the suspect, and

765
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: he's going to stand out like a sore throum. So

766
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: there's a lot of different things that have to be

767
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: massaged here to try to make everybody in the lineup

768
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: basically look all like the perpetrator, yeah the eyewitness described,

769
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: or all like the suspect that you've got, because you

770
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 1: don't want the suspect to stand out. And there's a

771
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 1: lot of techniques that they use to try to make

772
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:03,720
Speaker 1: everybody look the same.

773
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:04,439
Speaker 4: Yeah.

774
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 6: One of the I mean they like you said they

775
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 6: dressed people. It was funny that one article said in

776
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 6: the Bronx precinct, they usually.

777
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 4: Put them in Yankees hats. Right, Just line up a

778
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 4: bunch of guys in Yankees right.

779
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: That means that they have like five Yankees hats hanging

780
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: outside of the you know that room where they.

781
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 6: Walk them into wasn' Kramer in a lineup when he

782
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 6: was a suspect, a totally serial killer suspect.

783
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't remember it was a serial killer, but

784
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: I remember he was in the line I he kept

785
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:31,479
Speaker 1: turning the wrong way.

786
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think he was misidentified on the when they

787
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 6: went to LA to pitch the TV show. Huh, Kramer

788
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 6: got caught up in some like serial killer things. I

789
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 6: think of that, and I think of the great lineup

790
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 6: scene in the Usual Suspects.

791
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: Let's address that real quick.

792
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 6: When they have to say something so well, we can't

793
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 6: repeat it here because there's bad words.

794
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: Right. No, what I was going to say is that

795
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: that lineup would never happen because not only do you

796
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: have two suspects in there, all five people in the

797
00:39:59,080 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: lineup are your.

798
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 4: And they're not dressed the same.

799
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: Yep.

800
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's a total movie lineup.

801
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: It would never happen. No, Or are you going to

802
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: say about them saying something.

803
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 6: Well, they had to recite a line. I don't know

804
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 6: how typical that is, though.

805
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 3: Uh, you me.

806
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: When she did her line up, she remembered what the

807
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 1: guy was saying.

808
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 4: Oh, and they say that, okay, so that's the thing.

809
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: And she was like, wait a minute, can I do

810
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: they have to say whatever I say they said? And

811
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: the cop was like yeah, and she's like, really, what

812
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: I want him to say? Yeah, he's like, no, you

813
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: have to say what they actually said.

814
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, how did that result? Did she get the guy?

815
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: Oh? She picked him out immediately? Oh okay, yeah, yeah,

816
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: I think I got busted.

817
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 4: Nice.

818
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, you don't mug you me. I'll tell you that, buddy.

819
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 4: You hear that, purpose.

820
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 1: Right, you started quaking in your boots.

821
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 6: The one thing too, that caught me, uh sort of

822
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 6: off guard, is that I never thought about is the uh,

823
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 6: the part about whether or not they're clean shaven, Like

824
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 6: there could be details of omission, Like if an eyewitness

825
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 6: doesn't remember or doesn't mention that they either were clean

826
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 6: shaven or not, then I think they default to something

827
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 6: that may not be accurate. And so all of a sudden,

828
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 6: your lineup, well, your lineup should have all clean shaven dudes.

829
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: You should just assume that if they didn't say the

830
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 1: guy had a beard, that that doesn't that that doesn't

831
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: mean that the guy had a beard and they just

832
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: didn't say it. You should just assume it means that

833
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: they're clean shaven.

834
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 6: And they should all be clean shaven in a lineup,

835
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 6: because if you have five clean shaven guys in one

836
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 6: filler or one foil with a big beard like.

837
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 4: Me, right, I might get picked out just because I

838
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 4: look different.

839
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 3: Right exactly?

840
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: Or if the one guy's clean shaven, and you're like, well,

841
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: they didn't say that the person had a beard, but

842
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: they also didn't say they didn't have a beard, right,

843
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: so I can put this clean shaven suspect in with

844
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: four other guys who all have beards and make them

845
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 1: stand out. That's the opposite. And apparently there was this

846
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 1: New York Times article from years back about a guy

847
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: named that dude, what was his.

848
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 4: Name, casting agent, basically Robert Weston.

849
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, Robert or western It's it's a pretty interesting little article.

850
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 1: But in the article it says that the Bronx cops

851
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: that use this guy to help fill lineups, which we'll

852
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 1: talk about in a second, that that when they give

853
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: the perpetrators like the Yankees hats or whatever for the lineup,

854
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: like the perpetrator is always the one who pulls it

855
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: down over his eyes, and they have to be like, dude,

856
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: see how everybody else to wear in their hat makes

857
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: us exactly like that, or else they're going to pick

858
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: you out. So they actually are trying to help the

859
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 1: perpetrator at least not stand up and be like me,

860
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 1: you know, and instead just keep it on the on

861
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 1: the level, at least as far as the Yankees hat

862
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: brooms go.

863
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 4: I so want to be a filler.

864
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure you could do it. I want you just

865
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: have to hang around long enough until a dude who

866
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: looks like you commits a crime, which in Atlanta's a

867
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: lot of hipsters running around. For sure.

868
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 4: I don't look like a hipster.

869
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 1: I don't know, I.

870
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 4: Look like it the hipster gone bad.

871
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, need enough to be h. You look like

872
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: a hit and run hipster.

873
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 4: Hipsters are super well coffed and like squared away.

874
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 1: Oh I know it to me, you know, Yeah, your

875
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: jeenes aren't pegged.

876
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 4: No, I look like a hipster who slept in.

877
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 6: So back to Robert Weston, this guy in New York

878
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 6: at the time, at least, I can't believe how little

879
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 6: money he made. He only got ten dollars for putting

880
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 6: together a complete lineup. Yeah, and they said sometimes he

881
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 6: does as many as four in a day, and sometimes

882
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 6: not at all.

883
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 4: I'm like, so a good day for him is forty bucks,

884
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 4: that's what it sounds like. Man, Maybe that's the problem

885
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 4: is they need to Well again, it's budgetary. Probably it's

886
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 4: going to say pay a little bit more, get a

887
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 4: casting agent in there, get.

888
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: Some of those college educated fillers in there, right.

889
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 4: I guess.

890
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 6: And also it made it sound like, I don't know,

891
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 6: he's kind of pulling people off the street. Sometimes they're

892
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 6: homeless people. Sometimes they're like drug addicts. Well yeah, I

893
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 6: mean I guess it depends on who the purp is.

894
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 6: Sometimes they get other cops that are busy to stand in.

895
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, these are people need people will go

896
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: to a police station and stand in the lineup for

897
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: ten dollars.

898
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 4: Right, They get paid as much as the guy who

899
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 4: organized the party.

900
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: Right, But if Robert Weston stands in himself, he'll get

901
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: an extra twenty bucks on top of putting the thing together.

902
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:16,399
Speaker 3: Right.

903
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 4: How many times he tries to do that.

904
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: But he even said, like if they want white guys,

905
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: I don't know any white guys. So they go to

906
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: homeless shelters for that. And that's very much what cops do.

907
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: Cops will go find people on the street. They will

908
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: go to homeless shelters. They will have casting agents like

909
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: Robert Weston on their speed dial, and what they'll say is,

910
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 1: I've got a middle aged white guy with a graying

911
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: beard and he's about six feet tall. Give me four

912
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: other people that match that description, and ideally four other

913
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: people that match that description will show up, and not

914
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: three and then one another total outlier or something like that.

915
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 6: One cop was complaining about his work. It was kind

916
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 6: of funny, right, complaining about Robert Wesson. He was like,

917
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 6: he didn't bring in good people. He always like right.

918
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 4: Budges, the ages and the races and stuff.

919
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: But the reason why they keep using this guy is

920
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: because he answers his phone, doesn't matter what time you

921
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: call him. He can put a lineup together for you.

922
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:19,959
Speaker 1: And if you have a very limited amount of time,

923
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 1: you can only hold a suspect for so long without

924
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: charging them, but you want to put them in a

925
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: lineup for what's called an investigatory lineup, to where you

926
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 1: just want to see maybe bringing one witness just to

927
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: see if you're on the right track. You've got a

928
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: very limited amount of time and you need people like that,

929
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: which means that you may have a lower quality one. Yeah,

930
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: fortunately that would just be for an investigatory one. If

931
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 1: it were for a confirmatory one, that's the one that

932
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: you see on TV where it's like you bring in

933
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: a witness and you've got your suspect and they're sitting

934
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: in jail, and you bring them out. That is the

935
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: one where like, all the t should be crossed and

936
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,959
Speaker 1: the eyes should be dotted, because a good court will

937
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,879
Speaker 1: here and we'll want to know the details of how

938
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,439
Speaker 1: that lineup went, and if anything sounds hinky, they'll toss

939
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: that lineup right out, that eyewitness testimony out.

940
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 6: The worst possible version of all of this is something

941
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 6: called a show up. And this is something this is

942
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 6: also a movie trope that you see, and that's when

943
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,919
Speaker 6: an officer brings a witness to a place to show

944
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 6: the witness the suspect that's been apprehended. So like they're

945
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 6: in the back of a car, or here's what happens

946
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 6: in the movie. There's a guy in the back of

947
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 6: a police car handcuffed. They'll bring the person who was

948
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 6: robbed or whatever they're to the scene. They'll yank him

949
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 6: out of the back of the car and say, is

950
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 6: this the dirt bag who did it?

951
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 4: Like just one guy.

952
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,839
Speaker 6: Yeah, and that's clearly the worst possible version of.

953
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 4: All of this.

954
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: And the guy's like, I need more pace, a pay,

955
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: I'm coming down. So one of the here's the reason

956
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: why that show up is so terrible, Chuck.

957
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 4: Well, there's no other people that they're comparing them to.

958
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: That's one. But they're also in handcuffs, in the back

959
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: of a cop car or something like that. They're in

960
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: place custody, and so the eyewitness is going to assume that,

961
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: in addition to their testimony, the cops obviously have something

962
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: on this person, and so that must mean that the

963
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 1: cops know it's that person, and this is just a formality,

964
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 1: so I'll be like, yeah, sure, that was that person.

965
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 1: That's the first problem with it. The second problem is

966
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: is that from that point on, that person that they've

967
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: just seen now becomes the star of their memory of

968
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 1: that crime. It's like they photoshop this person's face into

969
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: that vague, shadowy face that's holding the gun that they

970
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 1: were actually focused on, and from that moment on they

971
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 1: just get more and more certain that that was the

972
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: person because that person's not starring in their memories and

973
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: it's not just the problem with the show up, but

974
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: with any misidentification. When they see that person and that

975
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: person becomes seared in their brain, they're positive from that

976
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 1: point on and they can seem very confident in court,

977
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 1: which again he's buy even though it's garbage.

978
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,240
Speaker 4: Well, in weeks and months can go by, right between

979
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 4: the point that you have experienced a crime and when

980
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,399
Speaker 4: you may be identifying someone or a court for sure

981
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 4: as months and months and months later. So man, part

982
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 4: of me does think, like, get rid of all this.

983
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 1: A lot of people say that, or at the very

984
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: least say this is eyewitness testimony. It's actually terrible testimony.

985
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: Actually it's terrible evidence.

986
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 4: But let's do it anyway.

987
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: Right. But and if they did say that, if they

988
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: basically lowered what how much weight eyewitness testimony held in court,

989
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 1: then those cases that were built entirely on eyewitness testimony

990
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't have a leg to stand on it. They have

991
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 1: to go build a bigger case.

992
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, But like in Yumi's case, it worked, it did. No,

993
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 6: it was like that guy might have walked, you know, right, That's.

994
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: The problem is that, you know, if if twenty five

995
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: percent of the time is wrong, right, seventy five percent

996
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: of the time, is right, we think. So, I mean

997
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: it's not it's not like Arson investigation, which we're going

998
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: to do one on one day, Yeah, where it's just

999
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: totally made up. Like it does have some veracity, but

1000
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:09,959
Speaker 1: there's a lot of flaws with it, and.

1001
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 4: The lives are at stake though it's really dicey.

1002
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: They need to figure it out because of that. Yeah,

1003
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:17,879
Speaker 1: so they need to go do that now.

1004
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 6: I mean, can you imagine anything worse than being misidentified

1005
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 6: and serving no, two decades in prison for something you

1006
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 6: really didn't do?

1007
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: No, I really can't.

1008
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 6: I mean I remember how up said I got when

1009
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 6: we did the Innocence Project. It's just, yeah, you hear

1010
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 6: these stories and then they get out and they're like,

1011
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 6: well here's here's four hundred thousand bucks.

1012
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 4: We feel pretty bad.

1013
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: Right, go get yourself something nice. Try to forget about

1014
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,919
Speaker 1: all this, right. Yeah, did you ever see that movie

1015
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: An Innocent Man with Tom Selleck. It scared the Bejesus

1016
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: out of me. The same thing happened to him when

1017
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 1: he was when he was he was framed.

1018
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 4: Oh wait, that's high Road to China.

1019
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 1: Oh right, I got my stuff? Makes it? No that's

1020
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: down under that. Oh right, Uh, you got anything else?

1021
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 4: Nope?

1022
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 3: All right, Well that's it for police.

1023
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: Lineups for now. We'll do an update whenever they get

1024
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 1: it figured out.

1025
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 4: We did one on police sketches, right, yeah, okay, is

1026
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 4: this it?

1027
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: Are we done?

1028
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 4: No?

1029
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 1: We still got Arson investigation. We've got a lot all right, yeah, okay, okay.

1030
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about police lineups, then

1031
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 1: I don't know, go hang around a police station. See

1032
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: if you can stand in one learn firsthand.

1033
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 6: Okay, get a little sign that says I will be

1034
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 6: your foil ten dollars.

1035
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:33,359
Speaker 4: Yep.

1036
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:34,280
Speaker 3: Uh.

1037
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: And since I said ten dollars, it's time for listener.

1038
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 4: Now, I'm gonna call this youngest fan. This very cute email. Hey, guys,

1039
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:43,760
Speaker 4: love the podcast.

1040
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 6: You're doing it right, It's not this email is not

1041
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 6: episode specific, but I had to tell you about this.

1042
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 6: My husband and I welcomed our baby boy into the

1043
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 6: world a couple of months ago. When I was pregnant,

1044
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 6: we joked that the baby would think that one of

1045
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 6: you was his dad because he heard your voices so often.

1046
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 6: That's a very funny joke in a family, you know,

1047
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 6: joke about the paternity of your child. Now that he's here,

1048
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 6: I've been playing music in the car instead of the podcast,

1049
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 6: thinking music helps calm him. Well, one day he was

1050
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 6: crying and crying in the car. I couldn't get him

1051
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 6: to calm down.

1052
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 1: She was like, what's wrong with DOCN? Why isn't docin working.

1053
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 6: I couldn't get him to calm down with any of the

1054
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 6: usual tricks, so I decided to heck with it. I'm

1055
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 6: gonna put on the podcast, and I kid you not,

1056
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 6: as soon as you guys started talking, he stopped crying.

1057
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 6: My husband says it was coincidence. Jealous, I say, stuff,

1058
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 6: you should know.

1059
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 4: Magic.

1060
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 6: Now we're back to always listening to you guys in

1061
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:42,959
Speaker 6: the car. You keep up the great work. And thanks

1062
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 6: for soothing my baby boy. And that is from Sarah

1063
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 6: Strantz and our youngest fan, Frank from beautiful Mount Pleasant,

1064
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 6: South Carolina.

1065
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Thank you so much for that email, Frank,

1066
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 1: go to sleep quiet now.

1067
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:58,879
Speaker 4: They named their baby after our chair?

1068
00:51:59,160 --> 00:51:59,399
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1069
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 1: Pretty? Wouldn't that be amazing if they actually did it?

1070
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 3: Well? Now?

1071
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: And thank you also to unnamed husband for being a

1072
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:08,240
Speaker 1: good sport.

1073
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:09,240
Speaker 4: Agreed.

1074
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,320
Speaker 1: If you want to send us a great email about

1075
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 1: how We're magic. You can hang out with us on

1076
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,399
Speaker 1: social media. Just go to our website stuff you Should

1077
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 1: Know dot com, and you can also send us an

1078
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 1: email to Stuff podcast at HowStuffWorks dot com.

1079
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

1080
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 5: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1081
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 5: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.