Speaker 1: Welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we give you insights
Speaker 1: into the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity. I'm doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, and in each episode I have a conversation
Speaker 1: with a guest who will stimulate your mind and give
Speaker 1: you a greater understanding of yourself, others, and the world
Speaker 1: to live in. Hopefully we'll also provide a glimpse into
Speaker 1: human possibility. Thanks for listening and enjoy the podcast today.
Speaker 1: It's great to have Caroline Webb on the podcast. Web
Speaker 1: is an executive coach, author and speaker who specializes in
Speaker 1: showing people how to use insights from behavioral science to
Speaker 1: improve their professional lives. Her book on that topic, How
Speaker 1: to Have a Good Day, has been published in fourteen
Speaker 1: languages and more than sixty countries. She's also a senior
Speaker 1: advisor to McKenzie, where she was previously a partner. Caroline's
Speaker 1: so excited to talk to you today. It's wonderful to
Speaker 1: be here. Thank you. So I decided I'm going to
Speaker 1: call this pot. I rarely have figured out the title
Speaker 1: of the podcast until the pot I actually have the
Speaker 1: interview with the person. But I decided it's just too perfect.
Speaker 1: I'm going to call it how to have a good
Speaker 1: day during a global pandemic. Well, there you go. That's
Speaker 1: what we're all looking for right now, isn't it. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's because we're all looking for that. It just feels
Speaker 1: perfect And you're the perfect person to talk about this
Speaker 1: with today. So I'm so grateful to have you on
Speaker 1: the Psychology Podcast. Thank you. So you wrote this book
Speaker 1: how to Have a Good Day, and you also do
Speaker 1: executive coaching where you help people have good days, And
Speaker 1: there's so many different aspects, as you know, to this field.
Speaker 1: Do you see some kind of rise to the top
Speaker 1: of the list of all you know, there's a gratitude,
Speaker 1: there's there's there's a goal setting there. You know, there's
Speaker 1: so many buzzwords that growth mindset. Everyone's got the words.
Speaker 1: Do you do see some that rise to the top
Speaker 1: that in priority during this really troubling time for so
Speaker 1: many people? That's a good question. I mean, there's a huge,
Speaker 1: wonderful talk kit out there, and you know you're wonderful
Speaker 1: of bringing that to a wide audience. I really appreciate
Speaker 1: what you do in this in this space. I do
Speaker 1: think there are three things that I'm seeing time and
Speaker 1: again coming up right now as being helpful, and frankly
Speaker 1: that I'm using a lot. I think, you know, we
Speaker 1: know that compassion is a very powerful force. We don't
Speaker 1: always turn it on at the you know, in the
Speaker 1: heat of the moment. And I think really understanding that
Speaker 1: the pressures that people are under that that sort of
Speaker 1: desire to feel secure in the midst of utter chaos.
Speaker 1: And it's not just the pandemic, of course, you know,
Speaker 1: there are all sorts of challenges that we always normally
Speaker 1: face in our lives, you know, the ups and downs
Speaker 1: and the uncertainties that we face, but also you know,
Speaker 1: the environmental challenges that many are facing in their lives.
Speaker 1: And to recognize that that kind of stress is going
Speaker 1: to not bring out the best in most people and
Speaker 1: or in ourselves, and to understand what our brains do
Speaker 1: under pressure and to be compassionate about that is the
Speaker 1: first step to actually being able to be centered in
Speaker 1: that moment. And then I think there's a real power
Speaker 1: in amplifying certainties in the midst of uncertainty. And then
Speaker 1: I think there's real power in directing attention more consciously,
Speaker 1: knowing that we don't perceive absolutely everything around us at
Speaker 1: any given time that we're actually always experiencing a subjective
Speaker 1: version of reality. What is it we choose to focus
Speaker 1: on in this moment when things are difficult? So those
Speaker 1: are the three things, compassion, certainties, and conscious attention. You
Speaker 1: can see I've got a little bit of alliteration there
Speaker 1: to help me remember, Oh, it's great, No, it's great?
Speaker 1: Does the conscious intention? Does mindfulness help with that? Does
Speaker 1: it regular mindfulness practice help with that? Well? I think
Speaker 1: regular mindfulness practice seems to help with just about everything, right,
Speaker 1: you know, because it does reduce our reactivity to negative stimuli.
Speaker 1: You can see that there's more ability to yourself regulate
Speaker 1: in the face of challenging situations. But I think with
Speaker 1: directing your attention, I think a lot of people aren't
Speaker 1: aware that the ingoing mental starting point for us. You know,
Speaker 1: whatever we have top of mind is going to drive
Speaker 1: what our brain believes is salient, is relevant enough for
Speaker 1: us to notice. So if we're in a bad mood
Speaker 1: and we go into a conversation, then we are naturally
Speaker 1: tuned to look out for everything that confirms that we're
Speaker 1: right to be in a bad mood, and so we
Speaker 1: utterly capable of focusing on the things that are annoying
Speaker 1: and completely blanking. A nice comment or a nice suggestion
Speaker 1: that someone makes that you know, just comes and goes.
Speaker 1: We don't even really remember hearing it. And so if
Speaker 1: you're experiencing a situation right now where you're reading a
Speaker 1: lot of bad news and you're naturally trying to stay
Speaker 1: on top of everything, and you know, you're dutifully reading
Speaker 1: the data, and you're kind of looking at how bad
Speaker 1: things are, I think the challenge is that then that
Speaker 1: attunes us. Given what we know about selective attention and
Speaker 1: in attentional blindness and confirmation bias and so on, it
Speaker 1: tunes you to look out for other things that are bad.
Speaker 1: And so I'm not a believer in, you know, just
Speaker 1: asserting that life is amazing and therefore it will be.
Speaker 1: But I am aware that if you can just direct
Speaker 1: your attention to something that is positive in the environment
Speaker 1: around you, just like the nice leaf on the tree
Speaker 1: that's outside my window, then you can help to reset
Speaker 1: your perceptual filters to some extent, and that can make
Speaker 1: all the difference at times like this. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm really interested in individual differences, and I'm fascinated by
Speaker 1: people who a particular difference and tell me what if
Speaker 1: you've seen this in your own coaching. There are some
Speaker 1: people who are pretty have pretty impenetrable walls. There are
Speaker 1: people who don't seem to soak up the emotions of
Speaker 1: others as much. They tend to no matter what comes
Speaker 1: down they can, they don't let it in so much.
Speaker 1: But then there are those who, I would say more
Speaker 1: people like me, who are very sensitive, you know, in
Speaker 1: the sense that even if I don't want to, it's
Speaker 1: really hard for me to not feel the person I'm
Speaker 1: talking you know, the emotions of the person I'm talking to,
Speaker 1: like I can't not let it in because it's just
Speaker 1: my temper It's my biological temperament, you know. But and
Speaker 1: I know it doesn't need to have to affect me cognitively.
Speaker 1: I think that, And I'm just first of all, before
Speaker 1: I just go on, have you noticed that individual differences,
Speaker 1: you know, when you're when you've been doing coaching. I have,
Speaker 1: I think, I think though, when you look at the
Speaker 1: data on emotional contagion, you know, people are more similar
Speaker 1: than they perhaps think. You know, we do see that contagion,
Speaker 1: you know, the mirroring of neural activity very readily when
Speaker 1: one person is expressing emotion. It's remarkable how much that transmits,
Speaker 1: even online, even in the kind of conversation that we have.
Speaker 1: Now there's there's interesting research on remote teams that suggest
Speaker 1: that even when they're only communicating by text, you can
Speaker 1: see emotions seep out and cross boundaries and spread across
Speaker 1: a team. So I think, I think we're very leaky
Speaker 1: as humans. But yes, I think you know, you have
Speaker 1: to know yourself and know that if you are especially susceptible,
Speaker 1: then you know, just know that what's around you is
Speaker 1: going to soak into your skin and into your mind,
Speaker 1: and that it's it's worth being very deliberate about taking
Speaker 1: a break and redirecting your attention to something more positive
Speaker 1: without being hokey about it. But just you know, what
Speaker 1: is there that I can notice around me or notice,
Speaker 1: you know, as I think about the day that I've had,
Speaker 1: that would help to reset a little? What do you
Speaker 1: what advice do you have in this particular moment in America?
Speaker 1: I know I hear something other than an American accent
Speaker 1: coming out of your mouth, but you probably are very
Speaker 1: aware with America's issues right now. Yeah, and I'm an
Speaker 1: American resident, so and you are an American resident, What
Speaker 1: advice do you have for people that are so frustrated
Speaker 1: and quite frankly fed up with a lot of injustices
Speaker 1: they feel like they're experiencing in the world in our
Speaker 1: country who aren't maybe inhabiting as as Abraham Masl my
Speaker 1: one of my mentors almost said, but you know, he
Speaker 1: called it the d realm of human existence versus you know,
Speaker 1: the deficiency realm where you know your your whole world narrows,
Speaker 1: it's hard to see the beauty around you, you know,
Speaker 1: it's hard to just simply redirect, versus the be realm,
Speaker 1: which is what it sounds like. You're talking about being
Speaker 1: realm of human existence, where you know, you don't try
Speaker 1: to change the world, and you're you admire the beauty
Speaker 1: of the things without you know, trying to change it,
Speaker 1: and you love be love for humanity. But for some
Speaker 1: people it's it's not easy to have so much love
Speaker 1: for someone who's beating you down. So, yeah, I just
Speaker 1: would love to hear some of your thoughts about this moment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a good question. It's funny. It was reading your
Speaker 1: book that made me realize how much Maslow is thinking
Speaker 1: on this has permeated the work that many of us
Speaker 1: are doing in the space of well being and resilience.
Speaker 1: You know, I talk a lot about getting people out
Speaker 1: of or getting yourself out of defensive mode and into
Speaker 1: discovery mode, which is an analogous to the idea of
Speaker 1: shifting from a deficiency focus to a being focused. And
Speaker 1: I do think that one thing is coming up a
Speaker 1: lot right now and that I'm using and that I'm
Speaker 1: helping other people use is a focus on what you
Speaker 1: can control and acceptance of what you can't. Now. Of course,
Speaker 1: that's hardly new. There's not new knowledge that is you know,
Speaker 1: that is old wisdom. You know, when you think about
Speaker 1: the fact that we all crave a feeling of competence
Speaker 1: and autonomy, it's important for our self esteem or sense
Speaker 1: of self worth to feel that we have a degree
Speaker 1: of ownership in what's happening to us. Sometimes when we
Speaker 1: are in a very very uncertain state, we focus completely
Speaker 1: on what we can't control, and actually we forget that
Speaker 1: there are there's quite a bit that we can control.
Speaker 1: And it may be that we have no idea what's
Speaker 1: going to happen next politically, environmentally, in health terms, but
Speaker 1: we can focus on how we choose to live today.
Speaker 1: What are the choices we make today. We can choose
Speaker 1: to decide to go for a walk. Now you might say, actually,
Speaker 1: you can't even do that because the air quality is
Speaker 1: terrible and maybe you're under under quarantine. I think we're
Speaker 1: very very conscious of the constraints. Okay, So knowing yourself,
Speaker 1: what do you know gives you a little bit of
Speaker 1: a boost? What is it that gives you a sense
Speaker 1: of what is it that gives you a sense of pleasure?
Speaker 1: And for me, comedy is really really powerful. Okay, So
Speaker 1: I can be very deliberate about bringing some comedy into
Speaker 1: my day. I can, you know, I can watch things
Speaker 1: that I know will reliably make me laugh. I know
Speaker 1: that that will feedback through the you know, the sort
Speaker 1: of strange synchronicity of mind and body. I know that
Speaker 1: the sheer fact of laughing forces me to take dia
Speaker 1: fromatic breaths then calms me. And the point is that
Speaker 1: there are these sort of very deliberate things we can
Speaker 1: do to shape our lives even when we are feeling
Speaker 1: like there's nothing that we control. And that's that's that's
Speaker 1: the thread that I'm pulling. You know, whether it's a
Speaker 1: business leader trying to figure out how to create some
Speaker 1: sense of what's going to happen, even if they don't
Speaker 1: know what the outcome is, they can talk about, well
Speaker 1: the process is to figuring out the outcome, or whether
Speaker 1: it's you know, a working parent at home just tearing
Speaker 1: their hair out with trying to figure out schooling, to
Speaker 1: focus on, Okay, well, what can I do in the
Speaker 1: next half an hour that I think is going to
Speaker 1: be a positive step. That's the kind of conversation that's
Speaker 1: coming up again and again right now. You told me
Speaker 1: back backstage that sometimes people imagine that because you're right
Speaker 1: about having good days and building a good life, that
Speaker 1: you look that you must look through the road, walk
Speaker 1: through look at the world through a rose tinted spectacles,
Speaker 1: you know. And then you also tell me others I
Speaker 1: think you should be more bullish, like how to have
Speaker 1: a great, awesome day every day, exactlation point esclamation point
Speaker 1: esclamation point. But your approach, your very measured approach. I'm
Speaker 1: listening to you. Seems like you like to look with
Speaker 1: quirity and equanimity at both what's hard on what's possible.
Speaker 1: So is this sort of a realistic form of optimism. Yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: that's you know, it's funny. You know, there are some things,
Speaker 1: of course, we develop as we as we get older,
Speaker 1: and you know, we we hopefully accumulate wisdom as we
Speaker 1: experience the world. But there's something really strange about this,
Speaker 1: you know. I go back to my There was a
Speaker 1: year book when I was seventeen, and I wrote that
Speaker 1: my life philosophy was realistic idealism, and I it's interesting
Speaker 1: to see that still really at the center of everything
Speaker 1: I do. I mean, I now call it really realistic optimism.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I'm optimistic about human nature. I'm
Speaker 1: optimistic about the opportunities we have to make a difference
Speaker 1: in our own lives and in other people's lives. I'm
Speaker 1: also realistic about the fact that there is also luck,
Speaker 1: and there are challenges, and you know, shit happens, and
Speaker 1: so I'm definitely you know, treading this middle ground all
Speaker 1: the time and helping people see what's possible while acknowledging
Speaker 1: what's tough. So yeah, that's very central to my central
Speaker 1: to everything that I do in my coaching and in
Speaker 1: my writing. Actually, you know Abraham as well. Actually not
Speaker 1: to keep bringing him up over and over again. But
Speaker 1: my listeners of the Psychology podcast are no stranger to
Speaker 1: me bringing him up over and over again. But he
Speaker 1: called himself a realistic optimist, so we called himself so,
Speaker 1: you know, and I like to think of myself similarly,
Speaker 1: and so we're all in this kind of me you Abraham,
Speaker 1: as kind of this realistic optimism club. There are a
Speaker 1: lot of people in this field who are just straight
Speaker 1: up happy, happy, happy. I mean, there are people who
Speaker 1: like that, and there are people who love people like that.
Speaker 1: So maybe you know, it's like, look, the world's a
Speaker 1: big place. What resonates with you, what style resonates with you.
Speaker 1: I'm much more in my life in interested understanding than condemning.
Speaker 1: So that's fine. You know, if there are people who
Speaker 1: they all go to their happy, happy, happy conferences together
Speaker 1: and they're all happy, happy, happy together, go be amongst yourselves.
Speaker 1: Leave me alone, absolutely, now, I think that's right. You know,
Speaker 1: different strokes and all that. I am definitely not going
Speaker 1: to be. You know, there are some people who are
Speaker 1: going to find me too too grounded and too real realistic,
Speaker 1: you know, or too I mean, they would see it
Speaker 1: perhaps as sort of being too not being bold enough
Speaker 1: I do remember I was speaking at a big conference
Speaker 1: thousands of thousands of attendees, and the green room was
Speaker 1: a fun place to hang out. There were lots of
Speaker 1: different types of speakers there, and that was really evident there.
Speaker 1: There was a speaker there who was what you would call,
Speaker 1: I guess, a motivational speaker, and you know, she had
Speaker 1: a certain story and she was very excited to say that.
Speaker 1: Her message was that you know, you could have anything
Speaker 1: you wanted, you just had to believe in it hard enough.
Speaker 1: And I said, I must admit I normally I just
Speaker 1: sort of, you know not and say sort of centered
Speaker 1: at the moment. But then you know, at that time,
Speaker 1: Aleppo was being bombed in Syria, and it was I
Speaker 1: was very conscious of the news, and I said, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure the kids in Aleppo would agree, And
Speaker 1: so you know, there you are. It's you know, we've
Speaker 1: got this. You and I believe that perhaps where you're
Speaker 1: born does have an effect on what your chances are
Speaker 1: in life. We also believe that what you can do
Speaker 1: with what you've been given is often more than we realize.
Speaker 1: So I think it's possible to have both things in
Speaker 1: your mind. I think that's right, we don't. It's not
Speaker 1: either or I do get that art these individuals who
Speaker 1: are suffering, it's not like they need to wait till
Speaker 1: some magical moment where there's zero suffering, or any of us,
Speaker 1: None of us need to wait till there's this magical
Speaker 1: moment that probably will never come where we're just everything
Speaker 1: is just zero percent suffering to work towards beauty and
Speaker 1: connection and the things that will help lift us out
Speaker 1: of these psychological states. And they're certainly environment bearriers. But
Speaker 1: you know, as I say to people, if Victor Frankel
Speaker 1: could find some joy in the concentration camps, then you
Speaker 1: sure as hell ken as well. I was just about
Speaker 1: to say that. And also, you know, when you think
Speaker 1: about the Stockdale paradox, Yeah, you know, the Walter Stockdale,
Speaker 1: the prisoner of war, same message. You know that he
Speaker 1: noticed that the people who survived being in a concentration
Speaker 1: camp with those who were able to both hold the
Speaker 1: possibility of release alongside recognizing the reality of what was
Speaker 1: going on, and that if you were purely optimistic or
Speaker 1: purely pessimistic, that they were the people around him that
Speaker 1: he noticed not doing so well. And so yes, I
Speaker 1: you know, absolutely, And you know, I regret having kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, reacted by saying what I've said about Syria,
Speaker 1: because I think, you know, she has a very very
Speaker 1: important message, and the message of possibility and hope is
Speaker 1: a really really powerful one. I think that there are,
Speaker 1: as you say, very different ways to get that out
Speaker 1: in the world. And you know, I think it's great
Speaker 1: that they're prep different different styles and different messages that
Speaker 1: take that message out in the world. I love that.
Speaker 1: Oh good, We're like on some more pages. Something that
Speaker 1: connection you made to me in one of our discussions
Speaker 1: is that it was with the field of mental contrasting,
Speaker 1: which is a hot, hot area of inquiry in our field.
Speaker 1: Could you maybe talk all about what mental contrasting is
Speaker 1: and how that can help some people have a good
Speaker 1: day right now during global pandemic. Well, it's a practical
Speaker 1: application of everything we've just been talking about, isn't it.
Speaker 1: The work driven significantly by Gabrielle Ettingen and Peter Goal,
Speaker 1: with the idea being that we know that having a
Speaker 1: goal makes you much more likely to move forward. That's
Speaker 1: you know, basic neurobiology. We also know that people can
Speaker 1: get derailed really easily when something doesn't go as intended,
Speaker 1: and so research has shown again and again quite a
Speaker 1: range of different settings. As you know that if you
Speaker 1: are both clear eyed about your goal and your dream,
Speaker 1: your vision, your hope, and also think about the realism
Speaker 1: of the challenges you're going to face and ideally then
Speaker 1: not just that which is sort of you know, realistic
Speaker 1: optimism or mental contrasting of the idea with the challenges,
Speaker 1: but then you also think about implementation intentions. So you think, okay,
Speaker 1: well that when that roadbump and I encounter each other,
Speaker 1: this is what I will do. I mean, so you
Speaker 1: know you have this when then plan when this happens,
Speaker 1: then I will do And that really helps you. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, there's a kind of non pandemic demic keee
Speaker 1: kind of example, which is if you want to exercise,
Speaker 1: or there's something that you want to maybe sort of
Speaker 1: you want to practice your French, then having a queue
Speaker 1: for what that is, you know, whether it's the sneakers
Speaker 1: by the side of the bed or you know, that
Speaker 1: is helpful. But it's even more helpful if you can say,
Speaker 1: when it's raining and I don't feel like leaving the house,
Speaker 1: then I will grab my umbrella and you know, just
Speaker 1: the shier fact of having that plan makes a dramatic
Speaker 1: difference to your chances of actually leaving the house and
Speaker 1: getting getting the thing done that you said you wanted
Speaker 1: to do. I have sabotaging if then plans such as
Speaker 1: if I have an if it then plan that becomes
Speaker 1: activated that says, go to the gym now, then eat chocolate.
Speaker 1: Has anywhere ever brought that case up to you and
Speaker 1: about having meta self sabotaging if then plans, Well, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, let's go back to compassion. Maybe that's fine,
Speaker 1: Maybe it's okay, you know, maybe it's okay to say,
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm going to go to the gym.
Speaker 1: It's going to be fantastic. I'm going to feel really energized,
Speaker 1: and I really love chocolate, and I'm going to you know,
Speaker 1: enjoy that. So I'm not you know, I don't judge.
Speaker 1: I think whatever works, And you know, chocolate is fantastic,
Speaker 1: let's be honest, it is, but doesn't work in terms
Speaker 1: of my of health. Yeah, well, you know, then there's
Speaker 1: a kind of okay. When I have a craving for chocolate,
Speaker 1: Then what is your alternative plan? I mean, do you
Speaker 1: have is there a little routine, little sub routine that
Speaker 1: you could launch at that moment. Do you think the
Speaker 1: best thing for me is to not even open the
Speaker 1: door at all? So I just don't have any chocolate around. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just I've learned from me the best thing to
Speaker 1: curb something is to just not have the stimulus anywhere
Speaker 1: anywhere in your in sight. And that's I mean, that's
Speaker 1: another strand that's emerged from the research. Isn't it that
Speaker 1: you know, you're much better off trying to change your
Speaker 1: environment than trying to change what's inside your head. It's just,
Speaker 1: you know, it's easier, you make it easier to take
Speaker 1: to make automatically good choices if you make it if
Speaker 1: you change your environment. So I yeah, I think that's
Speaker 1: very smart. I think well done. That's excellent. Yay. A
Speaker 1: lot of self help books have this kind of attitude
Speaker 1: of you can have anything you want if you just
Speaker 1: believe in it enough. Now, books like The Secret and stuff.
Speaker 1: What's wrong with that? Is that not grounded in science.
Speaker 1: There's a kernel of truth, right, you know, I touched
Speaker 1: on it earlier on It's about selective attention. It's the
Speaker 1: fact that if you whatever is top of mind, will
Speaker 1: help to tell your brain what is salient enough for
Speaker 1: you to be consciously aware of. You're recognizing we can
Speaker 1: only process a certain amount of information at any given time.
Speaker 1: So yes, if you decide that actually I have an
Speaker 1: experience experience that you know, I'm sure could be described
Speaker 1: in secret like terms. I remember when I got certified
Speaker 1: as a coach, I was actually really just doing it
Speaker 1: as an add on to my work, as I was
Speaker 1: a partner at McKinsey, the consulting firm, and I was
Speaker 1: doing a lot of organizational change work, and I thought
Speaker 1: it would be really helpful if I could be really
Speaker 1: more skilled in talking to the leaders about how to
Speaker 1: you know, be their best self so that they could,
Speaker 1: you know, create great environments for other people. So, you know,
Speaker 1: I thought it would just be an add on. And
Speaker 1: then I did this course and I thought, oh no,
Speaker 1: this is a bit tricky, because actually it turns out
Speaker 1: I love this, this is what I'm born to do.
Speaker 1: And now what am I going to do? I don't
Speaker 1: want to give up my you know, nice job with
Speaker 1: my lovely colleagues, but I'm clearly not going to be
Speaker 1: able to be a partner at McKinsey and be an
Speaker 1: executive coach at the same time. But you know, I thought, okay, well,
Speaker 1: what have I got to lose If I'm going to leave,
Speaker 1: then I will see what I can do to you know,
Speaker 1: tell as many people as I can that this is
Speaker 1: what I want to do. I want to be I
Speaker 1: want to do more coaching. And it was really ridiculous.
Speaker 1: I mean I didn't do a vision board, but by
Speaker 1: telling everybody what I wanted and being alert and having
Speaker 1: it top of mind and therefore noticing what was around
Speaker 1: me as a possibility, within three weeks I was starting
Speaker 1: to bring coaching into my who's actually a colleague who said,
Speaker 1: could you teach all of our younger colleagues how to
Speaker 1: be better coaches? And I thought, oh, okay, yes. And
Speaker 1: then three weeks after that, another colleague came to me
Speaker 1: and said, oh, you know, I've got you know, this
Speaker 1: executive team of eighteen people. It's far too big. You know.
Speaker 1: He was one of the only other certified coaches in
Speaker 1: the firm, and he said, well, what if we we
Speaker 1: then split this and I'll take nine of them and
Speaker 1: you take nine of them. And then suddenly I had
Speaker 1: almost a full coaching practice. There's definitely a version of
Speaker 1: the story, which is I just had to believe and
Speaker 1: then it was real. But that's not really true. I
Speaker 1: mean what happened was that, you know, I was conscious
Speaker 1: of this, so I looked out for opportunities that were
Speaker 1: otherwise missed, and I also told everybody this is what
Speaker 1: I was trying to do. So did I attract that
Speaker 1: to me? I mean kind of. But if I'd said
Speaker 1: to myself, frankly, you know, if you go into a
Speaker 1: conversation with someone you're expecting them to be a jerk,
Speaker 1: the same mechanism means that you will also, you know,
Speaker 1: notice that everything that they say is annoying. So this
Speaker 1: mechanism is in play. But the idea that you can
Speaker 1: just change everything by dreaming of it is patently unclear.
Speaker 1: I mean, if I had said I would love to
Speaker 1: be an astronaut, which is what I wanted to do
Speaker 1: when I was fourteen, I wanted to work in Grand Control.
Speaker 1: I didn't actually want to be an astronaut. I wanted
Speaker 1: to work in NASA Grand Control, which is a British
Speaker 1: school girl at a state school, was a sort of
Speaker 1: surprising goal. I was really really into physics. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you know, if I had said, if I'd done this
Speaker 1: course and then decided I wanted to be an astronaut,
Speaker 1: would would it just been, you know, a question of believing? No,
Speaker 1: of course not. So, you know, I think the idea
Speaker 1: that it's just belief and you know, you just have
Speaker 1: to be sort of firm and strong enough in your
Speaker 1: belief is patently not right. But I think, you know,
Speaker 1: being clear on what you want and being deliberate in
Speaker 1: where you put your attention. Sure, you know that there
Speaker 1: is some truth in that. Yeah, there is a greater
Speaker 1: truth there. You know. It shows the importance of setting
Speaker 1: intentions and really believing that what you want to do
Speaker 1: is possible. That seems to be the key there is
Speaker 1: is just even like deluding yourself sometimes can be a
Speaker 1: helpful start, but in the long run, delusion doesn't tend
Speaker 1: to fare out well. Right, you've got to pay attention
Speaker 1: to you've got to pivot, you've got to notice what's working,
Speaker 1: and you've got to adapt. And you know, that's that's
Speaker 1: what I see in the professionals who are most most
Speaker 1: thoughtful and successful in their lives in these challenging times
Speaker 1: is that they are not shy, They're not egotistical about
Speaker 1: perhaps being wrong about what they thought was going to happen.
Speaker 1: They're able to say, you know what, huh okay, I
Speaker 1: add this really strong idea and it turns out not
Speaker 1: to be true. So I guess we'll do something else,
Speaker 1: and let's talk about what that might be. Well, this
Speaker 1: is cool. Let's double click on executive coaching and unpack
Speaker 1: that more. Because I just entered the world of coaching myself,
Speaker 1: just join the Flow Research Collective and I'm now a
Speaker 1: flow coach and so this is a new world for
Speaker 1: me and I'm loving it. And it's it's almost like
Speaker 1: I'm hooked. I'm hooked. It's there's something, there's something really
Speaker 1: with my dope, mean or serotonin, something activated when I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm helping a person have a great insight
Speaker 1: about themselves, or I'm helping them cut out things once
Speaker 1: and for all that they've wanted to cut out. Basically,
Speaker 1: I like watching people do all the things that I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily do myself. It's inspirational to me to help someone.
Speaker 1: It's funny. I think I'm better at helping others sometimes
Speaker 1: that I am helping myself. But anyway, that's a whole
Speaker 1: other story for psychoanalysis. Yes, we'll talk about that next time.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I just I really i'd love to because
Speaker 1: I'm hooked on this coach, this coaching the end. I
Speaker 1: was very skeptical of it before, you know, I skeptical
Speaker 1: of it because I did see some what they call
Speaker 1: themselves positive psychology coaches, and some positive psychology coaches made
Speaker 1: me cringe, to be quite frank, because they weren't grounded
Speaker 1: in science whatsoever. And I mean they didn't have like
Speaker 1: PhDs or even's degrees, and they maybe took one psychology
Speaker 1: class in college and then and then they sort of
Speaker 1: I'm a certified coach, you know, with this dodgy organization
Speaker 1: that gave you one hour of training. So as you
Speaker 1: can see, that's why I was skeptical. But there's so
Speaker 1: much in the coaching world, so many people that I'm
Speaker 1: noticing are pretty awesome and legit, and so I'm not
Speaker 1: as skeptical anymore. So Yeah, so let's double let's double
Speaker 1: quick on on, let's double quick on what you do,
Speaker 1: because maybe that's I'm a focuser. Maybe I could aspire
Speaker 1: to an executive coach someday. Well, it's still an emergent discipline.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's only been around for a few decades. Interestingly,
Speaker 1: I think really the roots of modern professional and life
Speaker 1: coaching came out of E. Salin, you know, and that
Speaker 1: the Human Potential movement, certainly in Europe. John Whitmore was
Speaker 1: absolutely central to bring humanistic psychology into a form of
Speaker 1: support that you know, we now call we call coaching.
Speaker 1: And you know this idea that if therapy is about
Speaker 1: mental health and is about helping to address pathologies, coaching
Speaker 1: is about, you know, taking someone who's fundamentally mentally well
Speaker 1: and helping them be their best self and you know,
Speaker 1: help them remove barriers to being their best self and
Speaker 1: more often, and that is very satisfying work because you're
Speaker 1: helping someone on the kind of journey that you talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, which is a journey towards self actualization and transcendence.
Speaker 1: Right And in the professional realm, you know, you hear
Speaker 1: terms like leadership coaching. Actually, you know, I work a
Speaker 1: lot with leaders, not always you know, big corporate leaders.
Speaker 1: You know, people can be leaders of all sorts, at
Speaker 1: all ages, in all sorts of informal ways. So the
Speaker 1: work that I do focus is a lot on helping
Speaker 1: people who are trying to move a system. So I coach,
Speaker 1: for example, someone who is trying to figure out a
Speaker 1: way to get funding to support African students who often
Speaker 1: don't get a student funding because people perceive them to
Speaker 1: be two poor risks, and actually the evidence is very
Speaker 1: clear that they are actually fantastic bet for a bank
Speaker 1: to lend to. And so there is this young entrepreneur
Speaker 1: who I helped to think about, you know, how howes
Speaker 1: she build a system around this? Howes she build an
Speaker 1: organization around this? And you know, she's got a very
Speaker 1: small organization. At the other end of the scale, I
Speaker 1: will coach a CEO of a very large company who
Speaker 1: is trying to do, you know, something interesting on a
Speaker 1: global level. There's more commonality than you might think. You know,
Speaker 1: in both cases. You have to help them manage themselves
Speaker 1: under pressure and help them find their path, and you
Speaker 1: have to help them get the best out of the
Speaker 1: people around them. And that is just such privileged, wonderful work.
Speaker 1: I just love it, I really do. Where what's your
Speaker 1: training to get there? Like, what is your background? Do
Speaker 1: you have a PhD? Psychology? I don't. I mean there's
Speaker 1: a part of me that sort of I think, oh gosh,
Speaker 1: you know, when you when you talk about people who
Speaker 1: aren't you know, don't have phes at need a, it's
Speaker 1: probably not interesting to anyone else. But as it happens,
Speaker 1: I had so I did not know that psychology even existed.
Speaker 1: I was full on on physics, math kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: that was the path, you know, going to astrophysics. And
Speaker 1: then I had to take class in economics because of
Speaker 1: the way that the curriculum, that the schedule works, just
Speaker 1: you know, just how it worked out, and it blew
Speaker 1: my mind. I just thought, oh my gosh, this idea
Speaker 1: that you could be rigorous about human potential and structured
Speaker 1: and thinking about human motivations. Wow. Wow. And that was it.
Speaker 1: That was I was sixteen, and so that was that
Speaker 1: was a complete, a complete pivot. And and then I,
Speaker 1: you know, was was working towards being a professional I
Speaker 1: was an economist, a professional economist for the first decade
Speaker 1: of my career. And what happened over time was that
Speaker 1: I realized I wasn't really very wild about academic economics.
Speaker 1: I found the orthodoxy and economics back back then the
Speaker 1: eighties and nineties, behavioral revolution hadn't really broken and in
Speaker 1: the end, I was two years into you know, working
Speaker 1: towards a DFIL at Oxford, and I said, I can't.
Speaker 1: I just this is you know, I was missing the
Speaker 1: psychology I didn't even know I needed and wanted. So
Speaker 1: in the end, you know, I had to think about
Speaker 1: what will be a creative way to get back to
Speaker 1: my original interest, which was a sort of human science.
Speaker 1: And I know it's not the most obvious path, but
Speaker 1: then you know, I ended up going to going into
Speaker 1: management consulting, thinking well, at least I can work on
Speaker 1: organizational change and leadership here. And then you know, did
Speaker 1: my coaching certification, did some additional courses in psychology and
Speaker 1: EUROSIE it's big. Also did ACT I read a lot.
Speaker 1: I read a lot. And you know, if you have
Speaker 1: an understanding of statistics and also some humility about what
Speaker 1: you can and can't understand, then you know, and you
Speaker 1: I sort of developed a little bit of a panel
Speaker 1: of wonderful scientists to go to and say, well, hang on,
Speaker 1: how does this work? And so I would you know,
Speaker 1: have a couple of neuroscientists that I would go to
Speaker 1: and say, well, you know, tell me again, like how
Speaker 1: does this So the Amigadola really isn't the fit center now, right,
Speaker 1: So it's an attentional signaling kind of device. Okay, Right,
Speaker 1: So you know it's over the years, I'm just very
Speaker 1: honest about what I do and don't know, and what
Speaker 1: I can and can't say, And in a way, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm in this sort of translational space between between the
Speaker 1: research and the practice, and I hope it helps me
Speaker 1: to make the science simple enough for people. But I'm very, very,
Speaker 1: very attenive to knowing my boundaries and what I can
Speaker 1: and can't say. Well, you've a lovely attitude, and I
Speaker 1: do want to clarify I've noticed that there's not a
Speaker 1: very strong correlation between the high level degree you have
Speaker 1: in your coaching effectiveness and some of the greatest coaches
Speaker 1: are those that, in a lot of ways are very
Speaker 1: well read, you know, of a lot of the science.
Speaker 1: But I do have a critical lens towards those who
Speaker 1: are coaches that aren't interested in science whatsoever. That's I
Speaker 1: feel like, that's what I wanted to zoom in on.
Speaker 1: Was that point. You know, have encountered some who are
Speaker 1: just so supremely confident that whatever enters their head is brilliant,
Speaker 1: no need to challenge anything that's their head because it's
Speaker 1: just everything. You know, I know the way for everyone,
Speaker 1: so and in my writing, I'm just attentive to replication issues.
Speaker 1: There were several I mean, I had several filters for
Speaker 1: what I put in the book and I have a
Speaker 1: good day. One of them was do I do this myself? Second,
Speaker 1: you know, is this something I've seen work across many
Speaker 1: different cultures and situations. And third was, you know, is
Speaker 1: the science here not just cute or fun but kind
Speaker 1: of distinctly, you know, robustly replicable. And there were some
Speaker 1: areas where I got early, early notice that there were
Speaker 1: some issues, and I'm very glad that I actually decided
Speaker 1: to take them out of the book. You know that
Speaker 1: there was sort of the big debate on willpower that
Speaker 1: was just starting to break, debates on some of the
Speaker 1: some of the mind body loop material, for example, there
Speaker 1: were a number of areas where I was close enough
Speaker 1: to the research that I was able to say, you
Speaker 1: know what, I'm not sure where this is going. So
Speaker 1: I'm going to going to be careful about, you know,
Speaker 1: what I say about this right now, knowing that I
Speaker 1: myself are not at the cutting edge. So and I mean,
Speaker 1: it must feel really good knowing that your work is
Speaker 1: being taught at top institutions around the country. My friend
Speaker 1: and colleague, Jonathan Height and I sat in on his
Speaker 1: class once at NYU Business School, and he's gone on
Speaker 1: and on about Caroline Webbs. Did you all read the
Speaker 1: chapter Assignment of the Week Caroline Caroline Webb's book? And
Speaker 1: you know it must there must be a good feeling
Speaker 1: there knowing that you're very well respected amongst the top
Speaker 1: people in the field of positive psychology. Well, thank you, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's you know that I do love that
Speaker 1: John teaches that class you know around you know, with
Speaker 1: with with my book sort of so so munch at
Speaker 1: the center of it on. One of one of my
Speaker 1: favorite things is actually joining the last class of that
Speaker 1: semester and then taking questions from all the students say yes,
Speaker 1: but is this really possible? Can you really? Can you
Speaker 1: really do this? Really do that? I mean honestly really?
Speaker 1: And then you know, we talk about realistic optimism, what
Speaker 1: you can do within constraints. So you've worked with all
Speaker 1: different sorts of populations. And another thing I like about
Speaker 1: your approach, we's not only do you respect the science
Speaker 1: and try to read about the science, but you don't
Speaker 1: try to dumb it down. You you don't want to
Speaker 1: insult the intelligence of the people you're working with. Now,
Speaker 1: you told me backstage that you've worked with prison officers
Speaker 1: on Rakers Island. Well, i mean, first of all, what
Speaker 1: was that experience, Like, were you nervous at all? Like
Speaker 1: are you are you nerves of steel over there, Caroline
Speaker 1: Web Yes, No, I'm not. I'm in I'm a normal person.
Speaker 1: You know. It's it's a really strange place. You know,
Speaker 1: you go across across the bridge to the island and
Speaker 1: it's a very it's a very stark location. And the
Speaker 1: you know, I was working in this in the UK
Speaker 1: would call them porter cabins. I don't know what the
Speaker 1: shipping container, type of you know, type of situation. So
Speaker 1: you know, I had all of these materials which are
Speaker 1: clearly not going to work, you know, in this setting.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean I've seen I've worked with very
Speaker 1: broad populations that What is so interesting is that the
Speaker 1: same ideas. I mean, we're all human, we all have
Speaker 1: the same hardware and software inside. I think the idea
Speaker 1: of helping people understand that is normal to feel stressed,
Speaker 1: and that it's to I help them understand the base
Speaker 1: of what's going on, the fact that there's depression in
Speaker 1: the activity in prefrontal cortex when you feel that, you
Speaker 1: know you're you're dealing with uncomfortable, negative stress, and that
Speaker 1: that is going to have an effect on your capacity
Speaker 1: for reasoning and self control and forward thinking. And then
Speaker 1: you know, normalizing that feeling of stress and loss of
Speaker 1: self in that moment, and then giving them helping them
Speaker 1: discover a few simple techniques to get back to who
Speaker 1: they are and to you know, to reduce the state
Speaker 1: of alert, and then to shift them towards something more generative,
Speaker 1: that is work that crosses boundaries. And there was no yes,
Speaker 1: these were These were you know, people who didn't have
Speaker 1: more than a high school education in some cases, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe not even that, but there was no issue with
Speaker 1: their ability to rep their head around this adult. It
Speaker 1: was very satisfying to see that you're inspiring me to
Speaker 1: really deepen my own culturing practice. So I'm I'm getting
Speaker 1: into it. I'm really get I feel like I'm entering
Speaker 1: this new stage in my life. So it's it's oh fantastic.
Speaker 1: I think anybody will be very very lucky to spend
Speaker 1: time with you thank you helping them on their thank you.
Speaker 1: It's I was so apprehensive. I was like, what can
Speaker 1: I possibly offer like an Olympic athlete? Do you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Like, what's Scott very coffie? But I
Speaker 1: think I sell myself short sometimes because I start to
Speaker 1: have this conversation and they're like, wow, that's really insightful.
Speaker 1: You know, I can apply that to my life, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, maybe maybe I can make a change.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like you know, once I started doing it,
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, I can do that. I can
Speaker 1: do this. You know, yes, you absolutely can. You're a
Speaker 1: great listener and you've got great presence when you're with people.
Speaker 1: You know that you look, you look for what you
Speaker 1: can see and what they're saying that you can build on.
Speaker 1: And actually, you know, people don't get a lot of
Speaker 1: that in their lives, of someone truly properly paying attention
Speaker 1: to them. You know, sometimes when I'm teaching people about
Speaker 1: you know, you can call it x dream listening or
Speaker 1: the power of actually properly paying attention. There was one
Speaker 1: time I was doing this with a bunch of partners
Speaker 1: of a private equity firm who were trying to figure
Speaker 1: out how to be more supportive to the CEOs of
Speaker 1: the companies that they owned. And so we were talking
Speaker 1: about conversational quality and presence, you know, to help people
Speaker 1: feel really supported. And when I was demonstrating the technique
Speaker 1: of properly paying attention and just saying, so, that's interesting,
Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? And to say more
Speaker 1: about that, just the kind of basics, they thought I
Speaker 1: was flirting because it was the only frame of reference
Speaker 1: that they had someone paying as much attention to another
Speaker 1: human being. And it's the basis of coaching skill is
Speaker 1: that quality of attention. And you definitely have that. I
Speaker 1: mean so much to me. Thank you, Thank you were
Speaker 1: saying that, I'm definitely fired up. I'm definitely fired up.
Speaker 1: It's like a compound interest, you know, just even one
Speaker 1: or two, you start to see, oh my gosh, you
Speaker 1: can really change people's lives. Much more than writing peer
Speaker 1: reviewed academic journal article, waiting a year for it to
Speaker 1: get published and then four people in your field would
Speaker 1: read it. I'm addicted more to like actually helping a
Speaker 1: human Yeah, I mean, you know, I couldn't do the
Speaker 1: work that I do without all the people around the
Speaker 1: world pushing the envelope slightly in this piece of You know,
Speaker 1: I was having a little dialogue yesterday with someone who's
Speaker 1: doing some work on the peak and effect, and yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful to this
Speaker 1: post doc for doing this work. I mean, thank goodness.
Speaker 1: And then I can say, Okay, well, you know what
Speaker 1: does that mean for the advice that I gave about
Speaker 1: how people end their days? You know, and it's you
Speaker 1: need both, you need and if you can do both
Speaker 1: in a life, then that's wonderful. Embrace both. Yeah, awesome.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to hear more. Yeah, no, I agree.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've devoted past twenty years of my life
Speaker 1: to rigorous, peer reviewed scientific articles and all that. So
Speaker 1: maybe it's just I'm just now I'm lit up for
Speaker 1: a new chapter. So I'd like to end this amazing
Speaker 1: interview having here today with a little bit of a
Speaker 1: personal thing about you, because you're you don't often talk
Speaker 1: about your immense creativity, but you've got it going on.
Speaker 1: You've got it going on, Caroline Web. So here's some
Speaker 1: recent highlights you've recently you sang at Carnegie Hall with
Speaker 1: your choir half a dozen times, danced in the closing
Speaker 1: ceremony of the London twenty twelve Olympics, made crazy costumes
Speaker 1: with spare fabric, safety pins and spray paint for burning
Speaker 1: man and many other things. People just don't know this
Speaker 1: about you, Well they do now, yeah, they do, you do.
Speaker 1: A very large number of people will now know this
Speaker 1: about you. Hello ever funny, Yeah, I mean it's funny.
Speaker 1: I think you know, as a kid I was, I
Speaker 1: was very, very tuned into all of that, and then
Speaker 1: I drifted away from it. I got into my very
Speaker 1: analytical work, and I mean music was always the common threat.
Speaker 1: I will say that was always you know, I was
Speaker 1: in bands from the age of eleven, not very good ones,
Speaker 1: let's be clear. But but yeah, you know, singing for me,
Speaker 1: I was a pianist until you know, up to a
Speaker 1: certain age. But you know, singing has been the thing
Speaker 1: that's really taken over for me. But I think what
Speaker 1: what for me has emerged is just it's one of
Speaker 1: the best places to go for that state of total
Speaker 1: immersion and absorption and that feeling of losing yourself. It's
Speaker 1: sort of my meditative practice. And you know, let's be honest,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm at my stage of life. Some of that,
Speaker 1: you know, artistry comes through d I y, you know,
Speaker 1: through standing a piece of wood until it's just exactly,
Speaker 1: you know, exactly the right the right shape. But yeah,
Speaker 1: and I've I've the over the years, I've brought more
Speaker 1: and more of that have been braver and boulder and
Speaker 1: bringing that into my practice. So I have seen how
Speaker 1: much you can unlock someone's insight and connection with people
Speaker 1: around them by I mean even just getting them to
Speaker 1: pick an image to be a prop to telling their
Speaker 1: life story rather than just doing it purely through words,
Speaker 1: or getting them to model their vision for where they
Speaker 1: want to be in ten years time, to get them
Speaker 1: to you know, model it using children's clay, and to
Speaker 1: see what emerges from that. The different quality of conversation
Speaker 1: is really special, truly special. And I imagine in your
Speaker 1: coaching you help you help people with their exploration and creativity. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and of course you're not very dry about it. I say, well,
Speaker 1: this is going to you know, engage different parts of
Speaker 1: your brain. You will help you will see different insights.
Speaker 1: And you know I'm not I try to make sure
Speaker 1: it's not woo wu. They understand that there's a process there,
Speaker 1: that's that's that's going to take them to a different place.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you know, I'm very lucky to I'm very
Speaker 1: happy to say that people have been willing to go there,
Speaker 1: you know, especially you know, with a smile on their face.
Speaker 1: Well s b K. That's why for myself and third
Speaker 1: person SBK has wanted to for a very long time
Speaker 1: to be a burner, to be a burning man. So
Speaker 1: when this goal pandemic's over, maybe me and you can
Speaker 1: can part it up in burning Man and we can.
Speaker 1: The things that I do is to help people go
Speaker 1: for the first time, So I'm I have spreadsheets, I
Speaker 1: have lists, I guess. So it is actually something every year,
Speaker 1: even when I don't go, I try to kind of
Speaker 1: support two or three new people going. So you know,
Speaker 1: I'm happy to that's awesome. I have a lot of
Speaker 1: friends who are whatever the word is, burners whatever, burners,
Speaker 1: and they're like Scott, like, how are you not a burner?
Speaker 1: You know, and it's like, okay, well, let's not have
Speaker 1: a goal pandemic, you know, And yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: think you know what's so wonderful about Burning Man is
Speaker 1: the feeling of not being you're in a non judgmental environment.
Speaker 1: And you know, there was a piece I wrote for
Speaker 1: Behavioral Scientist. Yeah, I don't know. It was about a
Speaker 1: year ago. Molly Crockett, the neuroscientists and I good friends,
Speaker 1: and you know, we think a lot about the behavioral
Speaker 1: science that sits behind mind. Why burning Man is quite
Speaker 1: a you know, is a very interesting experience and a
Speaker 1: lot of the things that we know about living a
Speaker 1: good life are present there. And you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of people who just focus on the sort of you know,
Speaker 1: some press reports about hedonism are very surprised to hear
Speaker 1: about this. No. Actually, you know, the collective endeavor that
Speaker 1: building something together, the sense of gifting, the feeling of
Speaker 1: not being judged, all of this. You know, it's a
Speaker 1: very interesting petri dish for people like give and me
Speaker 1: who are interested in thriving. Ellieah, that's for sure. Hey, Carolyn,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on a psychology podcast
Speaker 1: and helping all my listeners as well as me have
Speaker 1: a good day. Wonderful to be here. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for a wonderful conversation. Thanks for listening to this
Speaker 1: episode of the Psychology podcast. If you'd like to react
Speaker 1: in some way to something you heard, I encourage you
Speaker 1: to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: That's the Psychology podcast dot com. Also, please add a
Speaker 1: reading and review of the podcast on iTunes and subscribe
Speaker 1: to the Psychology Podcast YouTube channel, as we're really trying
Speaker 1: to increase our viewership on YouTube. In fact, many of
Speaker 1: these episodes are in video format on YouTube, so you'll
Speaker 1: definitely want to check out that channel. Thanks for being
Speaker 1: such a great supporter of the podcast, and tune in
Speaker 1: next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.