1 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisental and I'm Tracy all Away. So, Tracy, 3 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: one topic that we actually don't talk about that much 4 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: that we have a few times is like Wall Street itself, 5 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: Like we talked about markets all different kinds of talk 6 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: a lot about e cons and like theoretical finance like 7 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: actual Wall Street banking, etcetera. We probably could talk about 8 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: it more. I feel like we do quite a few 9 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: markets structure episodes, but you're right, we don't get so 10 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: much into I guess the experience of actually working in 11 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: those markets. No, we don't um And of course it's 12 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: an interesting time. I mean it's always an interesting time. 13 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: But so many of the banks are doing extraordinarily well. 14 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: And I feel like for both of us our careers 15 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: post Great Financial Crisis, we like I think the standard 16 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: thing is like each year it's like a bonuses are 17 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: down at this bank or trading is down or left, 18 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: and it feels like that, at least right now for 19 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: the moment, it's a very lot of up arrows on 20 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: Wall Street. But I do feel like there's a weird 21 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: dichotomy at the moment in the sense that the banking 22 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: and trading results have been excellent and it's definitely boom 23 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: times for Wall Street. But on the other hand, a 24 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: lot of people are expressing unhappiness about the actual job 25 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: at the moment. Right, you have a lot of younger 26 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,639 Speaker 1: bankers especially who just don't seem that into Wall Street 27 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: at the moment. No, you know, they all want to 28 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: go work on Crypto there. You know, they're the probably 29 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: everyone else is traveling and working from saloom or something 30 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: like that, and their bosses are telling them to come 31 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: into the office and they're not having as much fun. 32 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: And so, yes, there was a great our. Colleague Max 33 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: Sableson wrote a great piece recently, is or It's like 34 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: everyone's making a lot of money on Wall Street, but 35 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: no one's having at any fun. Yeah, exactly. So today 36 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: we are going to get into the actual experience of 37 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: working on Wall Street and how it's changed and why 38 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: fewer people seem to be enjoying it and why everyone 39 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: wants to go into Crypto I guess. Yeah. So we 40 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: have an amazing the perfect guest for it. We're going 41 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: to be speaking with the author Michael Lewis. Of course, 42 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: he is the author of numerous books. But of course 43 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: one of his most famous liars Poker about Wall Street, 44 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: came out in the most recent book is The Premonition. 45 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: He's he also has his own podcast Against the Rules, 46 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,399 Speaker 1: and he's also, while we're talking about Liars Poker, done 47 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: a new audio book and come out with a new 48 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: sort of five episode mini series podcast sort of that 49 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 1: goes along with it called Other Pupil's Money. So really 50 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: just a real treat to have him on. Let's get 51 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: right to it, Michael, thank you so much for coming 52 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: on a lot. Hey guys, thanks thanks for having me. 53 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: So why why now to revisit Liars book? So two 54 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: things happened at once. One was the audio rights of 55 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: the book reverted to me. They reverted to me at 56 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: a time when I've been because of the podcast, I've 57 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: been talking to my podcast company, Pushkin Industries, about how 58 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: we would do audio books, informed by what we've learned 59 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: about podcasts, like the audio books typically are just you 60 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: just read them and nothing nothing else is going on. 61 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: And they really are starting to produce audio books, and 62 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: we were looking for an excuse to do a fun, 63 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: a more fun audio book, and this thing never got done, 64 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: I mean never even you know, back when Liars Booker 65 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: was published, there was really not a market. There was, 66 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: like they sent out these cassettes, you know, and it 67 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: was it was an abridged, very abridged version. So the 68 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: fact that it hadn't been done that so many more 69 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: people are kind of listening than reading it just seemed 70 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: like And the thing still sells, like, I don't know 71 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: how many copies a year, it's still so they still 72 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: was a market for it. But the other thing that 73 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: happened was my eldest child is a junior in college, 74 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: and she has now three times said my friend just 75 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: came back from an internship on Wall Street and they 76 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: were made to read Liars Poker to understand the which 77 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: makes no sense. But the fact that this thing is 78 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: being now handed out as sort of like a work 79 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: manual it interested me. And I just thought, plus the 80 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: asterix to all this was I never read the book again. 81 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: I mean, I wrote it, and I published it. I 82 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: guess I wrote read little bits and pieces when I 83 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: was on book tour back then, but apart from that, 84 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: I've never picked it up. And so it's just like 85 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: I was curious what was in it, and and when 86 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: I started reading it, I had all these reactions, and 87 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: the reactions led to the little podcast series that's alongside 88 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: of it. They were just kind of things I wanted 89 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: to do, like go talk to the people who were 90 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: characters in the book to see what they, you know, 91 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: when they look back on their lives, what they saw. 92 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: So all that's why there's no there's like, no real reason. 93 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,559 Speaker 1: Nothing that just happened on Wall Street's triggering my interest 94 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: in my own old book. So I gotta say so, 95 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: I love audio books. I'm really looking forward to this, 96 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: and I really only started listening to them in the 97 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: past year, so I'm basically doubled my reading, which is awesome. Secondly, 98 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: I mean you mentioned the idea of Liars Poker being 99 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: like the go to book for people who are interested 100 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: in finance and economics, and it was certainly one of 101 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: the first books that I read when I first went 102 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: into financial journalism. I remember that many many years ago. 103 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: But as you said or suggested, Wall Street has changed 104 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: quite a bit since the nineteen eighties. Why do you 105 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: think Liars Poker seems to have this enduring legacy or 106 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: why are people still so interested in it and still 107 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: reading it as the first thing you know on their 108 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: reading list when they start thinking about Wall Street. It's 109 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: a really good question, because it's bewildering to me. I thought, 110 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: you know, when I wrote it, I thought it was 111 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: going to be dated at any moment, uh, And that 112 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: it was written as kind of like a message in 113 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: the bottle to people a hundred years from who would 114 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: never believe what happened on Wall Street in the nine 115 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 1: It was like this discreet period of insanity that was 116 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: coming to an end. So I think that there's two 117 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,239 Speaker 1: answers to the question, and there's slightly contradictory. The first 118 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: answer is when you read the book, as I just 119 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: did and was reminded of all this stuff, I was 120 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: struck by just how much of what Wall Street became 121 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: was seated back then, like things that things that were 122 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: just starting to happen back then, we're telling you where 123 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: this place was going. I had no idea, but you know, 124 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: in retrospect, so the intellectualization of finance, that all of 125 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: a sudden, like we had a PhD in physics on 126 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: the trading floor and everybody thought, how bizarre is that. 127 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: Then there were a few PhD s, and then the 128 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: PhD s were actually in charge of most of them 129 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: were in trading decisions. I was just talking to someone 130 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: who graduated not that long ago from m I t 131 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: in the physics department, and he said, without thinking it 132 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: was even interesting, he said, Oh, my whole department just 133 00:06:58,200 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: goes to wall went to Wall Street. Everybody in my 134 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: CLA physics departed in anamity everybody. And he said, I said, 135 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: don't some of them like become physicists And he says, physics, 136 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: Physics isn't interesting anymore. It's it's uh so it's just 137 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: understood that this is the path and that that I mean, 138 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: so that starts back then, finance starts to get sufficiently 139 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: complicated that it rewards that kind of intellect and drives 140 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: out a different kind of person. So like that's one 141 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: thing that you can see just starting to happen. The 142 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: hold the place has on the imagination of young people. 143 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: Like it wasn't if you go back to like the sixties, fifties, 144 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: sixties seventies, it wasn't the best and the brightest from 145 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: the best schools who went to Wall Street. It was 146 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: like the c student from Yale and guy's name Vinny 147 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: from Staten Island, who I mean, it was the trade. 148 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: You know, it paid well, but the status it didn't 149 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: have that same status. And then it's persisted, even though 150 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: the jobs have gotten i think probably even more horrible 151 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: in some ways, it still has this grip on the 152 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: imagination young people. Like it's if you went to Harvard, 153 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: the next thing you do that's a similar thing to 154 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: getting into Harvard is getting into Goldman's acts that that's 155 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: amazing to me. But that was amazing to me then, 156 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: So there's like there's some things like that. There are 157 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: other things like that, just the financialization of the economy, 158 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: which is related to the other two things that it's finances, 159 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's never stopped growing as a part 160 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,119 Speaker 1: of as a sharing the kind of all that's happened. 161 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: So these mega trends kind of thing make it feel 162 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: make the book feel like, uh, there's a little relevance here. 163 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: It's not completely dated, but I think this is other 164 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: thing that's going on. And I was when I was reading, 165 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: and I thought, this is why people reading Wall Street's 166 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: gotten so dull. I mean, just personally, don't it is 167 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: it's essentially, you know, a tech job. You go into 168 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: one of these places and it's totally silent. It's people 169 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: sitting at terminals, just in a little in a in 170 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: a bubble. For better or worse. It's lost a lot 171 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: of its color, and it's very hard to persuade a 172 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: young person that this is the fun job job. I mean, 173 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: it's a job that pays you well and it gives 174 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: you an answer to the question what are you doing 175 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: after you got out of Harvard. It's just like even 176 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: more soul deplating than it was. And I think the book, 177 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, I didn't intend for this to happen, but 178 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: I was having so much fun writing it, and the 179 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: experience was there were aspects of it they were just funny, 180 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: you know, just it was. It was alive, people screaming 181 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: each other on a trading floor, people behaving in ways 182 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: that were outrageous. It was human and wet, and I 183 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: think that is part of the reason the book persists. 184 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: It's like, you can't write anything interesting about it now. 185 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 1: It's much harder. I mean, if you look at the 186 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 1: books I've written since, they're about Wall Street, Big Short 187 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: and and Flashboys, both those books. I mean, part of 188 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: it is a function of where I sit in relation 189 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: to Wall Street, but both those books dependent on kind 190 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: of outsiders crashing in on the system. It would have 191 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: been very hard, I felt, and I reported pretty heavily 192 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: inside the system to have brought the system itself to life, 193 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: because it felt kind of in funny ways dead, even 194 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: if it was making a lot of month, whereas long 195 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: as poker was sitting, you know, that was the right 196 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: at the heart of the system. How much of this 197 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: sort of more inert Wall Street is has to do with, 198 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: you know, the rise of technology, the fact that it's 199 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: not as much people necessarily streaming into phones and as 200 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: much of a people business, and how much would you say, 201 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: you know, how much is the last twelve or thirteen 202 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: years and the sort of like, however many this sort 203 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: of de risking of the banking system that occurred over 204 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: after the Great financial crest, So that's part of it. 205 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: That's definitely a part of it. Right that if you 206 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: are going to a big bank is no longer the 207 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: place where you're taking the big interesting risks. So you're 208 00:10:57,920 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: gonna if you're gonna take the big interesting risks, you're 209 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:01,599 Speaker 1: gonn to be at a hedge funder. You're gonna be 210 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: at a venture capital funder. You're gonna be in private equity, 211 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: and and the and the rewards also have moved outside 212 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: of the kind of the heart of the system. I mean, 213 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: the highest paid people on Wall Street when I was there, 214 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think, what I'm sure that sure, this 215 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: is not completely right. But they were barely hedge funds, 216 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: you know they were there were people, there were people 217 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: effectively doing what hedge funds did, but the compensation was nothing, 218 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: and the size was nothing. Was like today, and you know, 219 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: John good Friend making whatever three million dollars or five 220 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: million dollars or eight was considered just amazing. Uh. And 221 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: then and Milk and you know, milk and made a 222 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: billion dollars right inside of the bank. So I think 223 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: the actions moved outside of the banks too. It's it's 224 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: so that's happened. So the other things happened. I mean, 225 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: is that I'm probably partly responsible over this in a 226 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 1: small way. Is this must liars poker? That earraw must 227 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 1: have been the last time that someone like me could 228 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: roll in to a big bank without signing non disclosure agreements, 229 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: without having lawyers looking at everything you do, without being terrified, 230 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: everybody being terrified of everything they put in their emails 231 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: and all that, and where people didn't behave as if 232 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: they were being watched, where even the boss is kind 233 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 1: of thought. I mean when I walked out, I told 234 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:20,599 Speaker 1: him I was writing a book about Wall Street, and 235 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: they didn't. They couldn't have cared less. It was like 236 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: they worried. They were worried about my sanity in leaving 237 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: a really lucrative job for what they thought was penury. 238 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: But they didn't, you know, go write a book about 239 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: Wall Street? Who cares? Was kind of the attitude, the 240 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: access to un self conscious behavior it's got, it has 241 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: definitely shrunk. I mean that's another reason I think I 242 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: got the material was just sort of like that is 243 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: the last time it really had a lot of flavor 244 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: to it and you had total access to it and 245 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: you could write it up. I mean, there have been 246 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: other accounts from inside of Wall Street, but it's just 247 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 1: not as interesting. Were there. Do you think there were 248 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 1: any benefits to that type of culture, because nowadays we're 249 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: used to looking back at the nighteen eighties as this 250 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: era of excess. You know, you described in the book 251 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: basically like how much of a nightmare a lot of 252 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: the traders were. And I remember the trainees like sitting 253 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 1: in the back room and throwing things at the speakers 254 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. So everyone looks back at that 255 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: sexism as well and thinks, wow, this was terrible. But 256 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: was there any upside to having this sort of unfettered Um, 257 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: I guess culture. I'm gonna give you not my answer 258 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: but the answer of one of the subjects of the 259 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: Companion podcast and Clark Wolf, who has just started she 260 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: started an investment bank, has been dubbed Solomon Sisters. She 261 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: was a Solomon Brothers when I was the Solomon Brothers. 262 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: She would she was there right when the book was 263 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: coming out. Rather, she said to me something that sort 264 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: of was on the tip of my brain, and I 265 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: was asking her. I was trying to get her basically 266 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: say how horrible it was for women, right because from 267 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: my point of view, it was appalling. I mean, you will, 268 00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: it's hard for you to believe, but here's a place 269 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: of work and it is routine and acceptable to call 270 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: a stripper in and have her take all her clothes 271 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: off on the top of a trading desk while everybody cheers, 272 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: or or to swat women on the rear end as 273 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: they're walking by your desk or I mean, it was 274 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: just one thing after another. I mean, it was just 275 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: outrageous sexual harassment, nothing subtle about it. And it bothered me, 276 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: you know. And it's that that it bothered me. Was 277 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: was behind between the lines of the books in places, 278 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: and I thought I would get someone on to talk 279 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: about this who actually endured it. And instead of saying 280 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: what I wanted her to say, or thought I wanted 281 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: her to say, she said, now, you got it wrong. 282 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: Now this is just one woman's perspective. But she said, yeah, 283 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: there was that kind of stuff, but women could advance. 284 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: There might be that kind of stuff going on at 285 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: the same time. You got moved up if you were good, 286 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: and it was very open. There was there was a 287 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: kind of openness about it, like everybody wore their attitudes 288 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: on their sleeve up, but they kind of some to 289 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: move past those attitudes. And she said she found as 290 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: Wall Street kind of became more sanitized, the difficulty women 291 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: had moving up got worse. This is her talking to me. 292 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: But it was an interesting perspective, she said. And she said, 293 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that's happened is that 294 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: the male Wall Street person's fear of being in a 295 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: compromised situation with a female Wall Street has completely eliminated 296 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: the kind of mentorship that leads to uh, that leads 297 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: to people moving up. And I thought, wow, I mean 298 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: I've never heard that before. That was completely like no 299 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: to me. I thought, well, maybe it's more complicated than 300 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: I thought at the time. I thought, one of the 301 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: nice things about this place is that nobody's pretending to 302 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: be anything but what they are. That there's no that 303 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: that whatever vices there are here and their virtues and vices, 304 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: there's very little hypocrisy. And and it was refreshing and 305 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: it was filled. So this is related to this the 306 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: diversity of the characters which made the book work much better. 307 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: It wasn't all the same person there were there were 308 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: a lot of It was a huge variety of personality, 309 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: character types. It was sort of like a pool, a 310 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: random pool of talent. So that's kind of an appealing 311 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: trait in a place at the tolerance of a range 312 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: of a range of kinds of people. That's an argument 313 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: for how it used to be. I'd say the one 314 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: other argument, but this is kind of like what was 315 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: ending when I was there is there was this wet 316 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: relationship between the firm and its employees. It wasn't just 317 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: a corporate relationship. There was a residue of the partnership 318 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: and the spirit of the partnership, the idea that you know, yeah, 319 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: you worked in the mail room, but if you're if 320 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: your wife got sick and you couldn't afford to pay 321 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: the household bill, some partner just came in to pay them, 322 00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: because that was just how you did it. That was 323 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: that glue was was loosening while I was there, because 324 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: it didn't cease to be a partnership and become a corporation, 325 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: and it was becoming what it would become a kind 326 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: of a much a much less kind of wet and 327 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: cohesive place and much more corporate. But that old, that 328 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: old feeling of like an emotional connection. I bet people 329 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: miss that. I bet I bet people who work on 330 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: Wall Street now just miss that. There's no pretense that 331 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: you have like love of the firm, and the firm 332 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: doesn't love you. So there's there are things to be 333 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: said about that era, probably more things that you said 334 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: against it and said things to be said for it. 335 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: You kind of anticipated or my next question, But this 336 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: idea of like Wall Street Banks becoming more like corporate 337 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: or maybe interchangeable, where an executive at a major bank 338 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: could leave and go work at Google or Nike or 339 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: FedEx or something like that. Why does that? Why did 340 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: that happen? I mean, like it feels like that. And 341 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: you know, obviously in the intro we talked about, yeah, 342 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,959 Speaker 1: they're making a ton of money, but they it seems 343 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: like they're having less fun. And they're certainly not having 344 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: a lot of fun these days. Like why did why 345 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: why do these banks? Why are they just sort of 346 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: corporations in a way that they didn't used to me? Well, 347 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 1: because they weren't corporations, right, so they they I mean 348 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: I think that's the that was the thing that was happening, 349 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: you know. Again, like that gets back to why this 350 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 1: book still gets read. Part of it is just like 351 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: the moment in financial history captured. I walked into a 352 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: firm that was the first big investment bank to turn 353 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: itself to go public, and it was regarded as a 354 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: great active betrayal when it did to the two old 355 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,719 Speaker 1: partners to the idea of the firm. There's a lot 356 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: of anger in the air even inside the firm when 357 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: I was there, And this has happened, and it But 358 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: what that does is it changes the relationship of the 359 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: employee to the place the employee is. The people who 360 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: run it are much less likely to be exposed to 361 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: its failure in a big way. They're they're they're much 362 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: less likely to be It's not a sticky relationship. People 363 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: more of their wealth comes in the form of of 364 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: just their annual bonus and less in the ownership of 365 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: the firm. So people just didn't stay as long. And 366 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: so what you had happened was free agency. That was 367 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: the period where you started to get the free agent 368 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: trader guys, you know, leaving from Marroll Lynch for three 369 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: million bucks that and that was regarded it was interesting 370 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: that would not know bat and I at that now, 371 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: right if some if you're a goldman and Morgan Stanley 372 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: offers you twice as much money, everyone going probably just says, 373 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: well you should just take it, you know, or vice versa. 374 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: At the time, it was regarded as a betrayal. It 375 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: was regarded you would say that people were treated as 376 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: if they were traders if they left the firm for 377 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: a more higher paid job somewhere else. What you were 378 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: saying there was the residue of the partnership ethic and 379 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: their firms on Wall Street they are still you know 380 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: Brown Brothers. There there little firms that have kind of 381 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: kept the old structure and it really works for what 382 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: it does. It creates a lot of stability. It doesn't 383 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 1: work for big risk taking. Much better to be playing 384 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 1: with other people's money. So this is a very um, 385 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 1: I guess, guyste question. But you know, we're talking about culture, 386 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,959 Speaker 1: and you mentioned this idea of Wall Street firms having 387 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: much um more cohesiveness during this era. You called it wetness. 388 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: And I guess nowadays there's this big push on Wall 389 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: Street to get everyone back into the office. Everyone went 390 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: to work from home during the pandemic. And I guess 391 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: two things here, Why do you think it's such a 392 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: big deal for a lot of the banks to have 393 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: people in the office. And then secondly, is there attention 394 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: between a work from home model and a business like trading. 395 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: Do you have to actually be physically present talking to 396 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 1: you know, your peers, your colleagues in order to make 397 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: it work or is it something that can be done 398 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: remotely nowadays? Well you probably know the answer this is 399 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: better than I do. But my, my sense. My sense 400 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: is that there's much less reason to actually have to 401 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: be there. It would have been bizarre not to be there. 402 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: In you wouldn't you couldn't have functioned. Everything was happening there, 403 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: and it was personal interaction that was driving a lot 404 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: of the decisions, and and you were watching the markets 405 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: in when you were watching the traders. That's not true anymore. 406 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of what couldn't be done remotely 407 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: that's important, that would force people into the office. I mean, 408 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: for a lot of this, you don't even need really people. 409 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 1: You need algorithms. You know, the New York Stock Exchange 410 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: used to be people. It's now servers in New Jersey. 411 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: There are people on the New York Stock Exchange, but 412 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: they're essentially a television set. They're not doing anything important. 413 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: I think the way finances evolved, I can see why 414 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: this pressure to not go back to the office, But 415 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 1: you don't really need to be there. I think I 416 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: get the sense I could be wrong about this. I 417 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: get the sense that like bosses are much more interested 418 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: in having their their employees there, then the employees are 419 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: interested in being there. And then so there's some like 420 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: status stuff probably going on where it's you know, nice, 421 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: you probably feel and you probably feel like you can 422 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: monitor your employees better if they're physically present. But I'm 423 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: not even sure that's true. So no, I can't see 424 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: any reason. I don't I don't know why you need 425 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: a trading floor now, why can't be distributed? Even back then, 426 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: there are people who did real well sitting in a 427 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: room by themselves. They weren't, you know, not not people 428 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: who work for the banks, but people traders, catch fund types. 429 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: In fact, if you want to make the argument, you 430 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: know what succeeds in the financial markets, you know, independent thinking, 431 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: taking a view that's slightly apart from the crowd. All 432 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: that may be easier to do if you aren't in 433 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: a room full with other people who are all doing 434 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: the same thing. So to answer, so I would I 435 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: would have thought that it's going to be hard to 436 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: get everybody back, because you're not gonna You're not gonna 437 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: be any better with everybody back. It's not gonna there's 438 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 1: not gonna give you a huge competitive advantage. The exception 439 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: is that what you're dealing with, you actually have face 440 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: to face interactions with clients. People are more persuaded by 441 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 1: personal encounters, and so there's some there's still slices of 442 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: the business like that. I mean, I bet it would 443 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: be hard to be a I don't know, m and 444 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: a advisor without being able to be with people. But 445 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,479 Speaker 1: those people are not your colleagues. Those people are like 446 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: some CEO somewhere. So you think that's wrong. I could 447 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: be wrong. Do you think what's the give me the 448 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: argument for why you would go back to work. I 449 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: don't know, Tracy. I hate I hate doing this because 450 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: I'm on the record as a big work from home fan. 451 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: But it's culture and spontaneous cooperation, the kind of spontaneous 452 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: cooperation and synergies you get from running into someone. How 453 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: often has that happened to you? Actually, well, it does occasion, 454 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: I have to say, Like it does occasionally you do 455 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: run into people and say, oh, hey, what are you 456 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: working on? You know, and maybe they ask you for 457 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: help or something like that. But I do think nowadays 458 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: there are a lot of spontaneous interactions that can happen 459 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: in just through you know, instant messaging and stuff like that. 460 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: I just wanna I I totally agree, and I you know, 461 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: I love most of the most of the interactions I 462 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: have in the world are clearly digital. I really liked 463 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: this sort of like three or four people that sit 464 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 1: in proximity with me in the office, and I really 465 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: genuinely enjoy coming in and just sort of chatting verbally 466 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: or so I would miss it. I liked the news 467 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: or energy and just sort of joking around and talking 468 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: news with the people who are sitting here me. So 469 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: I'm a little bit more office of a sympathetic perhaps 470 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: than the Tracy is speaking of zeitgey as you think 471 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 1: so literally, it's every time some crazy story happens in 472 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: the crypto world, I see people like I can't wait 473 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: to read the Michael Lewis book about this event. And 474 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 1: of course there's gonna be a Michael Lewis crypto book 475 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: at some point. There has to be right this chance. Um, 476 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: you know, it's funny. I've been told by a lot 477 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: of people I need to write such a book, and 478 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: that's a persuasive But the it is true. What I 479 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,719 Speaker 1: think is true is if you asked, like, what's the 480 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: version of Liars Poker? Now? Where is Liars put the 481 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: Liars Poker like story happening? It's the it's crypto, it's 482 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: it's it's that's where there is this shocking and unprecedented 483 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: behavior and events, and people are trying to make sense 484 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: of something that's completely new. Our feels completely new where 485 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,719 Speaker 1: massive disruption is occurring. I mean that what Solomon by 486 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: this training floor and Michael Milken's Drexel bond department, we're 487 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: really like turning the financial world on his hand at 488 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: that time. And that was part of the excitement of 489 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: the story. So the same maybe true of crypto. The 490 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: problem with crypto so far from me is I'm gonna 491 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: get slave for this, but taking it seriously. So I 492 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: had this encounter and it's like it's a little powable 493 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: to microcosm of a bunch of similar encounters I've had. 494 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: I got a call. This was like six years ago, 495 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: so kind of early in the whole thing. Bitcoin is 496 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: like people are starting to look like they were smart 497 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: to own some bitcoin, and there were like the great 498 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: and the good of bitcoin. I was told we're gathering 499 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: in a house in Silicon Valley and I should come 500 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 1: down and just meet him. And the guy who asked 501 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: me actually said, if you come down, you meet Satoshi. 502 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: And I thought, well, I don't care all that much, 503 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: but I'm curious. So I drove down. I got in 504 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: my car and drove all the way to palahout though, 505 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: and I could smell the weed from like two blocks away, 506 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: you know. It was just like the weed was coming 507 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: out of the the chimney, and and there was it 508 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: was a funny scene. It was like twelve rooms and 509 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: sleepy bags in all the rooms, and some of the 510 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: people actually there were there were future billionaires in that house. 511 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: But they were trying to persuade me that this was 512 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: the money of the not the money of the future. 513 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: And and it did feel like when they when I 514 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 1: came to understand what this money was. But if this 515 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 1: had been the money of the present and someone invented 516 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: actual dollar bills, people would say, what, wow, this is 517 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: a fantastic revolution. And they took me so I said, 518 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: I still believe. I just don't believe this in money. 519 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: I don't believe this is gonna work. I think the 520 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: kind of things you need to do to make this 521 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: money are gonna undermine the things you love the most 522 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: about it. And they said, no, no, come on with us. 523 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: We're gonna show you that you can spend this already. 524 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: And we walked into pala Alton when there was a 525 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: coffee shop and sure enough it said we accept bitcoin. 526 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 1: And we sat there for I don't know, twenty minutes 527 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: trying to pay for a cup of coffee with bitcoin 528 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: until fine and no, and they couldn't do it. I 529 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: finally pull out a five dollar bill and it worked 530 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: just beautifully, And I just, you know, the first problem, 531 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: like what this is apart from a speculative instrument? Put 532 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: me off. Now, of course there's now everybody has a 533 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: Now everybody has a smarter story. The smartest story is 534 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: it's the new goal. It's better gold. It's not it's 535 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: not a currency, it's it's a better gold, you know. 536 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a better argument. It's you don't have 537 00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: to store it. Really, it's cheaper to store, easier to lose. 538 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: But gold has this like millennium of faith behind it. 539 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 1: And you're asking people to believe that people believe in 540 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: bitcoin the way they believe in gold, and I just don't. 541 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: Maybe that happens, maybe it doesn't. I think it's a 542 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: funny end game where the in the end there is 543 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: no bitcoin because all of it's lost. There's so much 544 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: of this stuff is already lost. Just amount of time 545 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: before the last you know, you know, bitcoin key is gone. 546 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: It's inconvenient in many ways, but the cultural stuff would 547 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: interests me the most about it is just like the 548 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: cultural disruption it causes. The fact you have n people 549 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: who randomly have three or four billion dollars now because 550 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: they bought some bitcoin, the fact that you've got people 551 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: who have lost half a billion dollars of bitcoin and 552 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: can't find their key. What people are doing with the 553 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: wealth that kind of like landed in their lap. So anyway, 554 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: it interests me. It all interests me. For me to 555 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: have something that is worthy of a okay, it requires 556 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: what I had in Liars Poker and Flashboys and the 557 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: Big short of the financial books. People I wanted to 558 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: be with. If I find a character who can walk 559 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: me the reader through that world in an interesting way 560 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: and and teach us all what it is and give 561 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: us the pleasure, kind of pleasure of fiction and that 562 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: you get from a character that would that would draw 563 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: me to the subject. It's got me. You're right, it's 564 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: got the ingredients, it's got like stuff. But I just 565 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: didn't I didn't buy the original argument for why I 566 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: should be interested, And and I haven't really found the character. 567 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: So I guess you didn't meet Satoshi in Palo Alto 568 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: her No, it was that was that was a ruse. 569 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: Maybe I did meet him, you know, It's possibly he 570 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: was there and he took one look at me and 571 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: said he's not worthy. Sort Of on a related note, 572 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: but what do you think is the attraction for people 573 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: who are in finance or have been in finance who 574 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: are making the transition to crypto. Is it purely a 575 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,479 Speaker 1: money making exercise eyes Is it just the next big 576 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: speculative asset that they see kind of, you know, a 577 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: bubble inflating in front of them and they can get in, 578 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: make their money and get out. Or do you think 579 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: there's a a genuine adherence to some of the belief 580 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: systems and culture and systems around crypto. I think it's 581 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: a mix. I think I've met both kinds. I haven't 582 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: done that much work in this area, but I've met 583 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: both kinds. Um I've met people who were attracted to 584 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: the the libertarian utopia and who were there for those 585 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: sort of reasons. But those my senses, that was there 586 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: at the beginning, and as bitcoin became more and more 587 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: of an attractive speculative asset. It attracted a different kind 588 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: of person. And I think there's like any goal rush, 589 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: why do people why do people come out and mind 590 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: come out to San Francisco During the gold rush, they 591 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: were well, there were some people who were here who 592 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: were like adding add a better idea about where to 593 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: find the gold, and they went and found gold and 594 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: got rich. There are some people who were just there 595 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: because everybody else was there and they thought they'd get 596 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: lucky and it didn't workout. But there's a whole class 597 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: of people who made blue jeans and sold them to 598 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: the minors and that, and I think that's that class 599 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: of person is now the whole crypto has got so big, 600 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: there is that that kind of person who's figured out 601 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: how to be the blue jeans salesman and actually is 602 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: kind of agnostic on the subject of crypto, doesn't believe 603 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: in it or disbelieve in it, doesn't care one way 604 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: or the other, just as long as people are trading it. 605 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: I don't think. I think we're kind of past the 606 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: point where people think there's easy money just buying bitcoin. 607 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: I don't think that exists anymore. I mean, it's just 608 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: it feels it feels pretty scary. So, you know, we 609 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: just have a couple of minutes, but there's actually I 610 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: kind of want to sort of pivot a little bit. 611 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: You mentioned San Francisco and you men, you've been talking 612 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: about the Three Wall Street books. We also wrote a 613 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: tech book in The New New Thing, talking about James Clark, 614 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: among other things. The Netscape co founder Dad obviously came 615 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: out very close to the peak of the dot com bubble, 616 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: and then it felt like, you know, that captured everyone's attention, 617 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: and so I feel like Silicon Valley went dormant for 618 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: a few years, and now obviously it's just everything. I'm curious, 619 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: you know, how how your perception of tech right now 620 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: feels compared to nine because obviously we've had this little 621 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: sell off in tech stocks lately. People wonder how it's different, 622 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: how it's similar. Does it feel like there was a 623 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: bubble that has to cool at some point? Like, how 624 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: does it? How does tech look to you right now 625 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: versus when you wrote that book, it's a much more 626 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: thoroughly developed and articulated religion. Um, what was happening in 627 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: the world didn't have it, This world didn't have its 628 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: story completely straight. Look at that look what's happened since then. 629 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: Jim Clark, the hero of my book, The New New Thing, 630 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: who I put at the center because he had been 631 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: this constant disruptive force and was in the middle of 632 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: the Internet bubble too with Netscape. Jim Clark, who lived 633 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: for innovation, who knew as much about Silicon Valley in 634 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: the tech world as anybody. At the end of that book, 635 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: he flees California and gets out of tech and venture 636 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: capital because it's all gotten too insane, because Klanet Perkins 637 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: has given twenty five million dollars to this startup called Google, 638 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: which he is sure is just nonsense. Now he sees 639 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: like that's for him, that was the sign that bubbles 640 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: about the burst. I mean, we're now sitting here with 641 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: the biggest corporations in the world having grown out of 642 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: that period. They create their own dynamic, barring a concerted 643 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: government effort to like bust them up. You know, it's 644 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: very hard to admagin how there's not just a bubble 645 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: there obviously, right, there's a lot else going on. The 646 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: religion has gotten I mean, it's just many more people 647 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: have come to accept that we live in a world 648 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: that's defined by constant innovation, and their wealth is innovation. 649 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: And the financial sector has real configured itself around this idea, 650 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,399 Speaker 1: so that there's huge amounts of capital thrown at people 651 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: who will innovate. That it's a buyer's market if you 652 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,800 Speaker 1: were an innovator. And I don't really see that changing 653 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,800 Speaker 1: because at the bottom of it is something that is true. 654 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: It is that wealth and innovation are very closely linked, 655 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: that we get richer as a society as we innovate, 656 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: and that it pays us, it pays, it pays everybody 657 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: to encourage this kind of behavior, to encourage total constant disruption. 658 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: It feels a lot less. It felt kind of thin 659 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: back then. There are a lot of companies that just, 660 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 1: you know, they just didn't You really couldn't see how 661 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: they're gonna work, and everybody said they're gonna work, and 662 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 1: then they didn't work. It doesn't feel quite like that 663 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: to me. I mean, of course, it's it's frothy right now. 664 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: But I do I think it would be smart to 665 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: like pull out of venture capital right now. No, do 666 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: I think it might be smart to get out of 667 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: some stocks in the stock market, maybe for a while, 668 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: But but it doesn't it feels like there's more of 669 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: a solid foundation under it all to me. Um. You 670 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: mentioned at the beginning of this conversation that you went 671 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: back and you read Liars Poker as part of this project. 672 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: UM and I tried to do the same thing before 673 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: this conversation, and there was one bit in it about 674 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,879 Speaker 1: Paul Volker sort of inadvertently giving birth to the big 675 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 1: bond business of the nineties by allowing interest rates to float, 676 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: and that introduced price volatility into the market. And that 677 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: was kind of surprising to me because nowadays you think 678 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,919 Speaker 1: Paul Volker and you kind of think Volca rule and 679 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: that he, you know, essentially castrated the big swinging dicks 680 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: of the era and it was all because of him. 681 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 1: As you were rereading, was there anything that surprised you 682 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:04,760 Speaker 1: or that unexpected or ironic with the benefit of hindsight, Well, 683 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: the first thing, it was a big chunk of the book. 684 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 1: It's about the creation of the mortgage bond market. Even 685 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: I at that moment have no sense that this is 686 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: that Frankenstein's monster is being created, that this that that 687 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: the way risk was going to be allocated would create problems. 688 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: I saw nothing but good in that. I thought, and 689 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: it wasn't very At the moment, it seemed great. It 690 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: was like, you're opening up, You're you're knocking down a 691 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: wall between capital and homebuyers, and it was going to 692 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: make buying a home cheaper for everybody, to give everybody 693 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,320 Speaker 1: cheaper access to capital. It was seemed like a great efficiency. 694 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: But the complexity of the instruments was going to make 695 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: something possible that I never would have imagined coming. So 696 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: that was one thing. It was like, huh, didn't go 697 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: so well, right? I mean, we were well and we 698 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: were in the beginning, but it didn't go in the end, 699 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: it didn't go so well. So it was my own 700 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: naive at the time basic approval of financial innovation. I 701 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: was doing it. I thought it was cool. I thought 702 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: it was making everything more efficient. It didn't occur to 703 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: me at the time. The complexity was the new opacity 704 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: that no matter how supposedly transparent these businesses were, and 705 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: you knocked down the wood panel walls and put up 706 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: glass walls and everybody could see what everybody else was doing. 707 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: It was complicated enough people would be able to do 708 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: all kinds of nefarious stuff because no other people wouldn't 709 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: understand and I didn't completely see that, and you when 710 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 1: I'm reading the book, I can I can tell I 711 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: didn't see that. I mean I was kind of on 712 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 1: the side of the innovator. So that's that's the most 713 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: obvious thing that leaps to mind. The other thing reading 714 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 1: the book that was just shocking to me was me, 715 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: I mean, seven year old me was I mean, I 716 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: guess I could have stood to have a drink with 717 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: that person, but I wouldn't want to stay for dinner. 718 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: My appetite for my own company of my with my 719 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: own twenty seven year old me was much the more limited. 720 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: And I thought it would be like, was I really 721 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: this insufferable? It was? There was, There was that, But 722 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: that's I think that's kind of true. And we explore 723 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,439 Speaker 1: this in the little podcast, like when you go back 724 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 1: to stuff you did when you were real it's jarring, Michael. 725 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 1: I think that's a great place to leave it. This 726 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: is a real treat. Very excited about checking out the 727 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: new audiobook and the new podcast series. And thank you 728 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: so much for coming on od luck, thanks for having 729 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: me see you guys. That was really fun, Tracy. I 730 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: feel that was a real treat getting to chat with 731 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: a legend in our industry totally. And I mean, like 732 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 1: I said, I remember reading Liars Poker as one of 733 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: the first things before I joined the Financial Times, or 734 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: even I think before the interview something like that. So 735 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: really great to actually meet Michael in person and speak 736 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 1: to him. So first of all, he has to do 737 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: a crypto book, right of course. Yeah, But secondly, I 738 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 1: know we were talking a lot about how much has 739 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: changed on Wall Street, but I kept going back to 740 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: um the idea that a couple of things haven't really changed, 741 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: and one is the bond market. I guess it's not 742 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: quite like it was in the eighties, but we've discussed 743 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: this on the podcast. It's still not standardized. There's still 744 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: no price transparency and so you can still make a 745 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 1: lot of money from from trading debt. Yeah, no, that 746 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,240 Speaker 1: that's true. Like that is one area that is still 747 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: like on some level, pretty chaotic. I think it was 748 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: like really cool, Like there aren't many people with his perspective. 749 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking also like obviously both Liars Poker, but 750 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,719 Speaker 1: also um his cover, you know, writing about Tech nine 751 00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: with the new new thing. Who have seen these like 752 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: huge industries like can sort of look at it with 753 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 1: both ends, like how many people do we talk to 754 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: like huge arcs of history, And so I thought, and 755 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,439 Speaker 1: you know, hearing him that last answer, and I thought 756 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 1: that was a great question you asked, Like the fact, 757 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 1: you know he wrote a book is like it's cool 758 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,400 Speaker 1: at the mortgage bond market and like the beginning and 759 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,359 Speaker 1: so being able to look back and obviously have no 760 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,919 Speaker 1: idea that I guess essentially literally, I guess twenty years 761 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 1: later that would be at the heart of this major 762 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,919 Speaker 1: international financial blow up. Yeah. But again, it's funny how 763 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: you know, things kind of change, but they also stay 764 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: the same. Because I mentioned that I was rereading it 765 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: or trying to before this this recording. But um, there's 766 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 1: a bit in there about Henry Kaufman talking about like 767 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 1: the financialization of the economy and how the US is 768 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,840 Speaker 1: borrowing so much money and debt's going to be an issue. 769 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: And this was you know, in the late nineteen eighties 770 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: and fast forward thirty years and we're still kind of 771 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: having the same conversation. It feels like, Yeah, and I 772 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: thought that was interesting, Like your point, like Vulcar these 773 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: days known for like the Vulcan rule and sort of 774 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,399 Speaker 1: like this, like but like he's era, like the era, 775 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,399 Speaker 1: and he was like, this is where it all came from, 776 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: Like that was it? So that was that is interesting. Anyway, 777 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed that conversation totally. And uh yeah, I 778 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,719 Speaker 1: enjoyed getting an excuse to reread Liars Poker, especially because 779 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:31,799 Speaker 1: I'm now in New York. It's a very good, like 780 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 1: New York book, Welcome, Welcome back to New York, Tracy. 781 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: This is very exciting. It is great, great to have 782 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 1: you here that I'm excited about all the recordings we're 783 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 1: going to do at the same time. So yeah, I 784 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: feel like this was an auspicious start to the New 785 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: York era. Although I should just say for any All 786 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,480 Speaker 1: Loots listeners, this is not going to be our permanent 787 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,399 Speaker 1: audio setup. It's gonna get it's gonna get better. But yeah, 788 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: talking to Michael Lewis about Wall Street in the nineteen 789 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: eighties and Liars Poker is a great way to aig 790 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 1: in the new All Thoughts era sounds good. I like it. 791 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: We're back. We leave it there, Let's leave it there. 792 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 1: All right. This has been another episode of the All 793 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on 794 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: Twitter at Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Why Isn't Though 795 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,720 Speaker 1: you can follow me on Twitter at The Stalwart. Follow 796 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: our producer Laura Carlson. She's at Laura M. Carlson. Followed 797 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,760 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Head of podcast Francesco Levi at Francesca Today, 798 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 1: and check out all of our podcasts at Bloomberg under 799 00:42:29,360 --> 00:43:00,320 Speaker 1: the handle at podcasts. Thanks for listening one