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Speaker 1: Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. And my name is Robert Gooley Lamb.

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Speaker 1: I forgot we were doing the voices. Let's see, I

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Speaker 1: am what's my name? Also, I'm Corrosive Joseph McCormick exactly.

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Speaker 1: And we're here with our excellent audio producer Death Nicholas Johnson.

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Speaker 1: It is Halloween. It is Halloween itself, I believe. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so we are presenting Anthology of Horror Volume three.

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Speaker 1: So this will be a sequel to our two previous

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Speaker 1: Anthology of Horror episodes, where we look at old episodes

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Speaker 1: of horror anthology TV shows and figure out how they

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Speaker 1: might often be deeper than they seem. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and also sometimes they're not very deep, but we we

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Speaker 1: have a knack for finding some hidden depth in horror

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Speaker 1: and science fiction. Now, in the last episode, which should

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Speaker 1: have been just a couple of days ago, we talk

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Speaker 1: about an episode of the Twilight Zone concerning how you

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Speaker 1: can know whether or not you are in a dream

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Speaker 1: or whether you are someone else's dream. And we talked

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Speaker 1: about an episode of the old horror anthology Monsters that

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Speaker 1: featured a story about ghoules called down Below and related

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Speaker 1: to that to cities dealing with rat problems. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: today I think we were going to start by looking

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Speaker 1: at an episode of The Outer Limits, right, yes, the

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Speaker 1: sixth Finger. This is the fifth episode of the first

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Speaker 1: season of ABC sci fi anthology series legendary sci fi

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Speaker 1: anthology series The Outer Limits, which originally ran from nine

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Speaker 1: through nine. It was created by Leslie Stevens, and unlike

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Speaker 1: a lot of these shows, he didn't have a true

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Speaker 1: horror or sci fi host. It didn't have like a

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Speaker 1: puppet or an actor that spoke to you and introduced everything.

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Speaker 1: But it did have the control voice, which in and

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Speaker 1: of itself is pretty classic. Explain the control voice. So

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Speaker 1: we will control the vertical, we will control the horizontal.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like this, this disembodied voice that is

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Speaker 1: taking over your television set and presenting you with some

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Speaker 1: sort of cosmic transmission from the Outer Limits. I see,

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Speaker 1: Is this the one that's there's no need to adjust

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Speaker 1: your television exactly? Okay? I think I for some reason

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Speaker 1: confused that I thought that was like an alternate opening

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Speaker 1: to the Twilight Zone. Uh no, no, no, that Twilight

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Speaker 1: zone is always like Rod Serling being like you were

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Speaker 1: entering another dimension, yeah, etcetera. Um, Yeah, The Outer Limits

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Speaker 1: was definitely more in the in the science fiction domain.

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Speaker 1: It was in many ways kind of like the sci

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Speaker 1: fi side of the coin to the Twilight Zones horror.

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Speaker 1: But it also got a little spooky, a little scary

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Speaker 1: at times. Uh, and certainly falls under the domain of

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Speaker 1: our our mission statement here. Now wait a second, sorry,

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Speaker 1: I just realized that the Outer Limits introduction you're doing here,

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Speaker 1: that this might be the first sort of hint or

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Speaker 1: attempt at doing a kind of found footage thing. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's saying like you are receiving a TRANSMISSI shin. It's

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Speaker 1: like implying that you're part of the narrative because your

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Speaker 1: TV set is is something's being beamed from another place

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Speaker 1: to Yeah, to a limited extent. I mean, once the

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Speaker 1: episode starts, it's pretty clear you're still safely in television land,

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Speaker 1: but you're also in in a place that still feels

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Speaker 1: a little less safe. But this ain't I Love Lucy exactly.

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Speaker 1: So The Outer Limits went two seasons and produced forty

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Speaker 1: nine episodes. Again, it's just always amazing just how robust

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Speaker 1: these some of these older seasons television were not all

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Speaker 1: of the episodes are classics, but some stand out amid

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Speaker 1: the all time greatest achievements in science fiction television even

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Speaker 1: today in this sort of golden age of television and

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Speaker 1: television options. Some of the most famous episodes include, uh,

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Speaker 1: for instance, Demon with a Glass Hand, which was scripted

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Speaker 1: by Harlan Ellison. But The Sixth Finger is also rather iconic.

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Speaker 1: Like a lot of the episodes, it features some alien

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Speaker 1: makeup effects that that are pretty astounding. A lot of

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Speaker 1: the alien designs on the Outer Limits uh kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, leaned into old school ideas of what an

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Speaker 1: extraterrestrial might look like. You know, there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of oversized heads and long ears and whatnot, like the

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Speaker 1: brain mutant from the Silent Earth. Yeah. Yeah, so some

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Speaker 1: of them are a little bit dated, but but they

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Speaker 1: were still pulled off exceptionally well, shot in black and

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Speaker 1: white and and and you know, sometimes with an almost

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Speaker 1: avant garde kind of style. That being said, there are

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Speaker 1: some effects that they pulled off on that show that

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Speaker 1: stand up I think really well today. Um, The Galaxy Being,

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Speaker 1: I think is an exception where we had like this

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Speaker 1: kind of sharp contrast of black and white where it

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Speaker 1: seems to be just radiating on the screen. But The

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Speaker 1: six Finger was directed by James Goldstone, who also directed

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Speaker 1: the pilot for a little show called Star Trek Okay,

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Speaker 1: So that's before Kirk is the Captain, right right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it was written by Ellis St. Joseph, who did

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Speaker 1: a lot of TV work in his career, and it

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Speaker 1: also started British American actor David McCallum, who starred opposite

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Speaker 1: Robert Vaughan in The Man from Uncle. So McCollum stars

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Speaker 1: in this episode as the character Griffiths, a Welsh miner

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Speaker 1: who agrees to let a rogue scientist named Professor Mathers

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Speaker 1: experiment on him, which is of course always a solid

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Speaker 1: life choice. Mathers played a role, we're told, in the

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Speaker 1: development of atomic weaponry, and he wants to aid humanity instead,

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Speaker 1: and so he has invented of means of speeding up

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Speaker 1: evolutionary development and he wants to try it out on

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Speaker 1: a human being. Now I can say, in the early

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixties this would actually be not that far fetched

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Speaker 1: of a scenario. I mean, I think there were a

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Speaker 1: number of scientists who were known at the time to

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Speaker 1: have worked on the creation of atomic weaponry who were

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Speaker 1: deeply publicly regretful of their work even Oh yeah, absolutely, Uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean to typified for the most part by the

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Speaker 1: heavily quoted a bit from from Oppenheimer now and become death,

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Speaker 1: where he himself is of course to quoting Vedic scriptures. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because certainly the atomic bomb is this uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: continues to loom over us as this uh, the symbol

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Speaker 1: of of of of great human achievements that are put

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Speaker 1: to work in in the name of like our worst

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Speaker 1: impulses as as a species, as a civilization. Totally and

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Speaker 1: uh and yes, so the idea of someone involved with

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Speaker 1: that wanting to do something that that you know, that

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Speaker 1: it saves us, that changes us, that does you know,

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Speaker 1: that puts us in a different direction. I think that

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Speaker 1: that makes perfect sense. And I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people would would agree that. You know, this, this period

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Speaker 1: of of of nuclear power, you know, is something we

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Speaker 1: hope it's it's kind of a bottleneck, right, It's like

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Speaker 1: it's a period of extreme danger to the species that

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Speaker 1: we hope to move past, we hope to evolve through.

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Speaker 1: And and certainly, you know, we tend to think of

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Speaker 1: that evolution as more or less biological and more cultural,

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Speaker 1: more political. But in a science fiction story, you know,

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Speaker 1: it makes sense to go with the more literal interpretation

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Speaker 1: of that, Like, human beings need to evolve beyond this

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Speaker 1: point of extreme danger. So I'm going to put a

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Speaker 1: human being inside of a crazy sci fi contraption and

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Speaker 1: see what kind of you know, peaceful being comes out

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Speaker 1: the other side. Right as you increase our ability to

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Speaker 1: destroy ourselves in one another, it seems like every year

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Speaker 1: that goes by, we're just sort of like barely eking.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're just making it if we don't use

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Speaker 1: that power unless you change us somehow, that it would

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Speaker 1: be inconceivable to us to use it right now. To

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Speaker 1: be clear, evolution, as we've discussed plenty of times on

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Speaker 1: the show, is a process of mutation and natural selection

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Speaker 1: that takes place across the vast periods of time due

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Speaker 1: to various environmental stressors. Would you agree with that You're

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Speaker 1: more Darwin's bulldog on this show than I am. I mean,

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Speaker 1: our modern picture of evolution I think has become a

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Speaker 1: little bit more nuanced, and that we we learn more

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Speaker 1: and more things that uh that affected like epigenetic factors

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Speaker 1: possibly and things like that. But yeah, basically, I mean

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Speaker 1: the standard model is that there is variation and then

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Speaker 1: there is selection by the environment. And yeah, the big thing,

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Speaker 1: of course, the way this happens in nature is it

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Speaker 1: happens over many generations. The way evolution is often conceived

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Speaker 1: of in stories like this is it basically just means

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Speaker 1: like changing somebody, like changing an individual's body in their lifetime,

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Speaker 1: which would be different from biological evolution that would be

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Speaker 1: more like that I don't know, bioengineering of the body. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And and also I mean the other thing too, is

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Speaker 1: this this model in this science fiction story it has

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Speaker 1: this it kind of implies that there's an exact map

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Speaker 1: of our evolution inside of our bodies, inside of our genes.

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Speaker 1: You know. Is if like we're a Pokemon and you

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Speaker 1: can look at a chart saying like how it advances

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Speaker 1: to its final form if I have my Pokemon reference

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Speaker 1: is correct, I don't know my Pokemon all that well.

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Speaker 1: But but still yet it implies that there's like a

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Speaker 1: certain path that an organism should take and it's all

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Speaker 1: written in the genes, as opposed to being this process,

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Speaker 1: uh you know, being you know, driven by this process

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Speaker 1: of natural selection that depends so heavily upon environment. So

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Speaker 1: on one hand, it's a tad silly to think that

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Speaker 1: some manner of mad science process could simply speed up

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Speaker 1: human evolution. But again they're trying to make a statement here,

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Speaker 1: so we'll roll with it. Okay. So as Griffith evolves

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Speaker 1: and there there, this is a this is a real

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Speaker 1: talky by the way, as far as um you know,

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Speaker 1: anthology shows Go and Outer Limits tended to be I

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Speaker 1: think a little more cerebral than the many of the

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Speaker 1: other anthology and you know shows that would come in

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Speaker 1: its wake. There's a lot of discussing what this means

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Speaker 1: and discussing, uh, you know, how we might apply it

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Speaker 1: to our understanding of the world. And so Griffith's you know,

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Speaker 1: he goes through these problems like a I guess, a

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Speaker 1: treatment of evolution. Then he comes back out and he's changed,

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Speaker 1: and he talks about it, and he goes back in,

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Speaker 1: he gets another treatment, he comes back he's even different.

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Speaker 1: But basically these are the changes biological and mental that

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Speaker 1: take place. Okay, First of all, he gets an extremely

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Speaker 1: over developed cortex like a giant alien melon head, which

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Speaker 1: again is very impressive makeup effects, but at the same

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Speaker 1: time it's kind of a dated look for our idea

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Speaker 1: of like a far future being Okay, So just to clarify,

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Speaker 1: basically is the idea that this is naturally how humans

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Speaker 1: would evolve if we were allowed to just you know,

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Speaker 1: keep living for thousands of years. But the scientist has

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Speaker 1: figured out a way to get us there down the

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Speaker 1: already mapped path ahead of time, right. I think that's

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Speaker 1: what the model is here. We just have to sort of,

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Speaker 1: you know, take their word for it on the sci

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Speaker 1: fi process that's getting it to us. Sure, so huge

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Speaker 1: yet great now, as the title implies, one of the

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Speaker 1: other major changes is that there is a sixth finger

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Speaker 1: on each hand, so a total of twelve digits on

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Speaker 1: the hands. Now better to press nuclear launch buttons with

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Speaker 1: yeah uh. In addition, long L fears, which you know

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Speaker 1: isn't I don't really have a good discussion lined up

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Speaker 1: for that, but there are L fears mental powers such

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Speaker 1: as telekinesis, vastly enhanced intelligence and ultimately enhanced empathy and understanding,

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Speaker 1: And in the original script, he also eventually develops a

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Speaker 1: means of photosynthitus and lives on pure light and kind

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Speaker 1: of transcends into a being of light. In the show, however,

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Speaker 1: he attempts to push himself even further in evolution, but

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Speaker 1: his wife betrays him out of love and turns him

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Speaker 1: back into his original self, you know, turns back the

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Speaker 1: dial on the evolution machine to try and get the

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Speaker 1: you know, the man that she loves back in the room,

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Speaker 1: but the process ends up killing him. It's just too

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Speaker 1: much for him. So it all makes for a great

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Speaker 1: mad science tale and one that I think works well thematically.

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Speaker 1: Plus McCallum has that kind of like old school Leslie

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Speaker 1: Howard Delivery you know which show, which I really love

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Speaker 1: because if you're watching a show like The Outer Limits

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Speaker 1: of the Twilight Zone, you do have to you find

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Speaker 1: a reason to love some of the more you know,

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Speaker 1: by today's standards antiquated uh aspects of say acting or

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Speaker 1: pacing or even the effects. And Joe, I have a

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Speaker 1: picture of of the being here for you and it

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Speaker 1: certainly anybody wants to see this. Just look up The

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Speaker 1: Outer Limits the Sixth Finger. You can also find it

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Speaker 1: on like Hulu or Netflix, streaming pretty much everywhere, but

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Speaker 1: you can also find lots of images of this. It's

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Speaker 1: very iconic cost him. Okay, so first of all, I

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Speaker 1: see the giant melon head and that look that looks

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Speaker 1: great because you get so much brain in there. I

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Speaker 1: am immediately imagining some problems having to do with birth,

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Speaker 1: like the size of the human birth canal, which you

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Speaker 1: would have to assume it would also evolve to be

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Speaker 1: much bigger to allow a birth of that kind of creature.

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Speaker 1: Though I believe it's it's widely thought that we're already

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Speaker 1: pretty much it's sort of the limits of what our

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Speaker 1: bodies will allow in terms of cranial size, right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the the other thing that comes to mind is our

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Speaker 1: discussions in our episode on brain soup and liquefied brains. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the actual size of the brain would not be as

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Speaker 1: important as the number of neurons within it. So I

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Speaker 1: think by our modern understanding, it was kind of it

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Speaker 1: was very much in vogue at the time to to see,

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Speaker 1: like you know, outside craniums as being a sign of

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Speaker 1: super intelligence and your fictional creatures. But I think nowadays

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Speaker 1: we realize that that would not be necessary. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: like I already mentioned, this island Earth. It shows up

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Speaker 1: in a lot of sci fi from the mid century

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Speaker 1: that you've got aliens with huge old heads. I guess

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Speaker 1: because they're very smart. But also I like how he's

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Speaker 1: got extremely defined facial bone structure, Like this guy has

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Speaker 1: cheekbones to die for. He does, yes. And then of

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Speaker 1: course there are the lf ears, which again we don't

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Speaker 1: really have anything to say about them. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: what point of ears would really accomplish evolutionarily. Oh man,

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Speaker 1: this seems like something that has to have been explored

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Speaker 1: in a kind of speculative paper, like somebody who's an

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Speaker 1: expert on the morphology of the ears and how they

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Speaker 1: help you here, how would you hear differently if you

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Speaker 1: had l f ears. I don't know. We should come

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Speaker 1: I bet we should come back to that, because there

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Speaker 1: is a good answer for it. Uh. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: a whole world of of elve and ear structure that

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Speaker 1: we could discuss in the future. But what I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about is that extra finger. So we're gonna

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Speaker 1: take a quick break, but when we come back, we

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Speaker 1: will get into the the five digit rule invertebrate evolution

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Speaker 1: and we'll discuss the possibility of a sixth finger coming

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Speaker 1: into play. Than all right, we're back. So we've been

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Speaker 1: talking about the classic Outer Limits episode The sixth Finger,

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Speaker 1: about a man who speeds up his own evolution within

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Speaker 1: his own lifetime, and he gets a gigantic melon head,

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Speaker 1: he gets really defined facial bones, beautiful cheekbones, he gets

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Speaker 1: elf ears, but he also grows a sixth finger. And so, Robert,

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Speaker 1: you looked into what it would mean to grow a

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Speaker 1: six finger? Is that kind of thing possible? Why or

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Speaker 1: why would not we? Why wouldn't we see that in

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Speaker 1: human evolution or primate evolution? Yeah, it's really it's really

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Speaker 1: fascinating because, first of all, the five digit rule does

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Speaker 1: run pretty deep invertebrate evolution. According to Michael Coates, Associate

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Speaker 1: professor in the Department of Organismal Biology and Anatomy at

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Speaker 1: the University of Chicago and co editor of Evolution and

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Speaker 1: Development fighting for Scientific American, the condition of having no

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Speaker 1: more than five fingers and toes probably goes back before

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Speaker 1: the evolutionary divergence of amphibians and amniots, birds, mammals, reptiles.

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Speaker 1: We were talking three hundred and forty million years ago,

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Speaker 1: go back three hundred sixty million years ago, and there's

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Speaker 1: evidence of tetrapods with six, seven, eight, digits. Uh, the

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Speaker 1: the decrease to five or fewer came about alongside the

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Speaker 1: development of sophisticated wrist and ankle joints. So basically, the

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Speaker 1: creatures with more digits had simpler skeletons and simpler limb mobility,

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Speaker 1: and they were generally, you know, something along the line

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Speaker 1: of flippers, because we're talking about creatures of the water here.

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Speaker 1: But as these limbs evolved to allow certain organisms to

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Speaker 1: stand or to push off with those limbs essentially, or

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Speaker 1: you know, as they moved towards being land creatures, we

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Speaker 1: see the reduction of digits, and indeed we tend to

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Speaker 1: see you know, the further reduct of digits because the

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Speaker 1: rule of evolutionary thumb here is that it's easier to

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Speaker 1: lose something than it is to gain something. Absolutely. I

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Speaker 1: mean you can see that with many tetrapod mammals today.

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Speaker 1: For example, look at a dog's paw. I mean, they

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Speaker 1: have a sort of vestigial other thumb type thing up

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Speaker 1: there on the on the leg, but basically they got

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Speaker 1: four toes that go go down on the ground. It's

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Speaker 1: the what the do claw? Yeah yeah, up there, or

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Speaker 1: I mean even look at the feet of ungulates. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, horses are a great place to look because

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Speaker 1: we see how far it's reduced now. But you know,

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Speaker 1: various prehistoric courses had three or four toes. And when

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Speaker 1: animals actually do gain digits, well, uh Coats points out

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Speaker 1: that the lack of true six toed or six fingered

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Speaker 1: creatures in today's fauna quote highlights some sort of constraint.

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Speaker 1: For instance, one of the rare cases we see of

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Speaker 1: you know, a creature gaining digits is the marine reptile

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Speaker 1: uh Ethosaurus. This is the these sixty years ago. We

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Speaker 1: talked about about them on the show before. They essentially

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Speaker 1: are dolphin like creatures, they have that same sort of shape,

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Speaker 1: but they they are reptiles um and as a result

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Speaker 1: of returning to the sea, they eventually developed paddles that

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Speaker 1: sometimes had you know, quite a number of digits in there. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so the atheosaurs, like the marine mammals of today, in

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Speaker 1: their evolutionary history, went to land and then went back

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Speaker 1: to water, right. Yeah, So, which again lines up nicely

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Speaker 1: with this idea of of as long as you're a

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Speaker 1: sea creature, you can have multiple digits within that paddle,

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Speaker 1: but when you start using that paddle increasingly again over

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Speaker 1: you know, generation after generation after generation. If it's used

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Speaker 1: to push off, if it's new used even to hold

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Speaker 1: up your weight, it becomes increasingly um more beneficial to

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Speaker 1: have fewer digits in that at the end of that limb. However,

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Speaker 1: we do see creatures like the mole and the panda,

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Speaker 1: both of which benefit from remodeled wrist bones that essentially

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Speaker 1: serve as a sixth finger, but which are not true fingers.

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Speaker 1: And if you haven't seen a picture of this, I

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Speaker 1: encourage everyone to look up pictures of panda's paw or

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Speaker 1: the the claws of a mole, and you will, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you start doing some counting, you'll be like, okay,

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Speaker 1: one to three, four, five, and oh, kind of six

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Speaker 1: again not a true thumb. But for the panda, for instance,

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Speaker 1: it serves as a thumb. It has like the roll

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Speaker 1: of a thumb in helping them handle food. The panda,

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Speaker 1: of course, is the herbivore of the bare world, and

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Speaker 1: and the end it has to eat constantly, and therefore

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Speaker 1: it has eventually used the point where it needs a

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Speaker 1: little extra thumblike appendage to get the job done. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: for moles, uh, this extra little thumblike appendage. It helps

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Speaker 1: them tunnel through the earth, so being almost more like

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Speaker 1: a flipper, Yeah, help it swim through the earth. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: These are, in Coats's words quote, rather baroque solutions to

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Speaker 1: the apparently straightforward task of growing an extra finger. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, if we're going to think back to our

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Speaker 1: outer limits example here, it would be far more likely

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Speaker 1: that one would grow some sort of a you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, a paddle of a pseudo finger, as opposed

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Speaker 1: to growing a full finger, no matter how many keyboards

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Speaker 1: you're having to use, no matter you know, how many

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, mad science gadgets you're having to

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Speaker 1: manipulate with your far future digits. But I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about another even more amazing example from real world biology,

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Speaker 1: and for this we have to turn to the world

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Speaker 1: of the Lemur. As recently reported in Smithsonian, the I

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Speaker 1: I Lemur known for its weird looks and its elongated

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Speaker 1: middle finger, which it uses to fish grubs out of trees.

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Speaker 1: You may have seen this in various documentaries before. It

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Speaker 1: looks like a tree goblin and it's I think it

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Speaker 1: has unfortunately suffered from like superstitious killings in the past,

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Speaker 1: but it has this. It's nocturnal and has this fabulous

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Speaker 1: super elongated in some people's eyes and man think it's

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Speaker 1: creepy middle finger which it uses. You have to fish

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Speaker 1: out a grub and uh and then it's it's you know,

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Speaker 1: it's this highly specialized digit. And once it gets the

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Speaker 1: grub out. I was reading that it will also like

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Speaker 1: pluck the top of the grub off and like suck

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Speaker 1: the inside of the grub out, like it is just

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Speaker 1: a highly evolved grub eater. But in addition to this,

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Speaker 1: it also boasts an extra tiny thumb or pseudo thumb,

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Speaker 1: complete with a fingerprint. This according to Adam Hearthstone Rose,

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Speaker 1: Associate Professor of Biological Sciences at North Carolina State University,

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Speaker 1: It's a pseudo thumb made of bone and cartilage, but

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Speaker 1: it can be moved in three directions, much like a

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Speaker 1: human thumb. Now you might wonder, why, why why is

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Speaker 1: this creature so greedy for crazy digits? It already has

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Speaker 1: this super elongated specialized digit. What does it need an

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Speaker 1: extra digit for? You know what? I realized the II

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Speaker 1: hand reminds me of I just looked it up to

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Speaker 1: see it again. It reminds me of the of klaus

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Speaker 1: Kinsky's hands in Werner Song's nose fur aw too, he's

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Speaker 1: got the long nails and the creepy fingers. Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 1: It does seem like a true creature of the night,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it. But yeah, basically it seems to have developed

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Speaker 1: this this additional pseudo thumb because the other fingers are

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Speaker 1: elongated and specialized. Like essentially it's lost that middle finger

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Speaker 1: to specialized usage, and so it has had to develop

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Speaker 1: a pseudo thumb to make up for that special specialization.

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Speaker 1: And to be clear, you'll you'll sometimes find a six

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Speaker 1: finger occurring on a human as a as a birth

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Speaker 1: to fact, and in fact, since we're celebrating Halloween, it's

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Speaker 1: worth noting that Hannibal Lecter in the books um has

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Speaker 1: an extra digit on his left hand like that that occurs,

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Speaker 1: but it is not, you know, it's not a naturally

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Speaker 1: you know, evolved feature. So you're probably wondering where does

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Speaker 1: this leave our six fingered man in the outer limits.

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Speaker 1: So Griffith kind of essentially dodges the question when at

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Speaker 1: one point a scientists actually asked him about the six finger, like,

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Speaker 1: what's what's up with that extra finger? And he just

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Speaker 1: kind of starts talking about something else. But but it's implied,

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Speaker 1: especially given the prior scene in which he plays a piano,

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Speaker 1: that it enables the better manipulation of interface tools like

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Speaker 1: the keys of a piano or the keys of a computer, etcetera. Now,

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Speaker 1: if again, this is suggesting this would be selected for

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Speaker 1: an evolution, that would imply that at some point people

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Speaker 1: are like dying or not reproducing as much because they

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Speaker 1: can't type as fast. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's where we

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Speaker 1: get into some some problems with this this model if

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Speaker 1: you look at it too closely. Um. I also had

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Speaker 1: to realize as I was typing up notes for this,

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Speaker 1: I was hyper conscious of how little I actually use

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Speaker 1: my pinky fingers while typing. Now, ultimately I'm probably using

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Speaker 1: some sort of weird hybrid of of actual typing with

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Speaker 1: a little hunt and peck thrown in there. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that I use my pinkies all that much,

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Speaker 1: if at all, unless I'm doing some sort of weird

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Speaker 1: hot key. I definitely is mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's that's semicolon, you know, for sentences. No, yeah, I wait,

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Speaker 1: I've gotta think of it. Okay, yeah, okay, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: do it, okay, all right to each Sorry, I'm not bragging.

428
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 1: I mean no, no, I mean I thought just because

429
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: my pinky fingers are way better than yours, well you

430
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: know they're not. They're not holding me back. I'm just

431
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: saying that, Like, you know, when I catch myself typing,

432
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I don't think the pinkies are really

433
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: carrying their weight here. So um, it's kind of silly

434
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 1: to imagine a scenario in which being able to type

435
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 1: extra hard and be able to hit like crazier hot

436
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: keys on a keyboard would would have this kind of

437
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,239
Speaker 1: impact on human evolution. At the same time, maybe it's

438
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: for the next level of PC gaming. Yeah, that's but

439
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, it is true that habitual

440
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: tool use has led to the evolved state of the

441
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 1: modern human hand, including thumb length. So tool use has

442
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 1: shaped our bodies, it has shaped our hand in the past,

443
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 1: so it's not ridiculous to say that the future human

444
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: evolution would continue to reshape the human hand. Sure, but

445
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: there you would be contending with the fact that I

446
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 1: think there's you know, in the environments that we mostly

447
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: live in today, not being able to use a tool

448
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 1: as well doesn't usually mean that you're going to, you know,

449
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,479
Speaker 1: on average, have fewer children than the people next door.

450
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:22,959
Speaker 1: That that seems like a thing that would be more

451
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: the case in like a hunter gatherers survival scenario. Exactly. Yeah,

452
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: And ultimately we have to remember that you were no

453
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: longer subject to purely natural selection at this stage of

454
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 1: the human experience. You know, it's it's more of an

455
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: unnatural selection. We also have to consider the potential of

456
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: directed evolution that we will, in the future continue to

457
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: figure out ways to manipulate our own genes, which brings

458
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: up the possibility that perhaps our far future selves have

459
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: simply added on an extra finger. Rightly, it's not a

460
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 1: situation where we evolved when but we realized, hey, having

461
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: two pinkies on each hand would be nice, let's wit

462
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 1: and then we just we just do it. We just

463
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: check it off on the menu of g manipulation, which

464
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 1: which reminds me of Less Grossman's The Magicians and the

465
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: sci fi uh TV series that's based on it. There's

466
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,719
Speaker 1: a there's a dark wizard in the show called the Beast,

467
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: and he has an extra finger on each hand because

468
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: in the in The Magicians, casting spells involves a lot

469
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 1: of like fine manipulation of your digits, like sort of

470
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 1: like the the use of mood ras and whatnot. Uh So,

471
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: if you had an extra digit on each hand, you'd

472
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 1: be able to cast improve variations of spells. You'd be

473
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: able to cast spells that a normal individual with five

474
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: digits would be incapable of. Well, that makes me wonder

475
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: who invented those spells then, I mean, I guess they're

476
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 1: of his own creation. Well, yes, and of course there

477
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: are a lot of inhuman being entities in this world

478
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: as well. He could be going to them for such spells. However, uh,

479
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: you know, discussing this idea of like, you know, growing

480
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 1: extra fingers to manipulate technology, It's said, as Peter Ward

481
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: pointed out in his Scientific American article The Future of Man,

482
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: how will evolution change humans? We also have to consider,

483
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: you know, not only like computer interfaces like keyboards, but

484
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: more drastic interfaces, some of the sort of futuristic mind

485
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 1: computer interfaces that we've discussed in the show before. Um.

486
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 1: He points to a quote from George Dyson in his

487
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: nine book Darwin among the Machines. Quote, everything that human

488
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: beings are doing to make it easier to operate computer

489
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: networks is at the same time, but for different reasons,

490
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: making it easier from computer networks to operate human being

491
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: Darwinian evolution, in one of those paradoxes with which life abounds,

492
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: may be a victim of his own success, unable to

493
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: keep up with non Darwinian processes that it has spawned.

494
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot to that. I mean, I

495
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: would say, I mean, this is in the nineteen nineties,

496
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: before you could anticipate a lot of the stuff that's

497
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: going on now with say social media, in the many

498
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: ways that our our technology is influencing us. But just

499
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: one thing I would say here is that this person

500
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: probably lived through the transition from command line computers to

501
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: graphical user interfaces, and so obviously having a graphical user

502
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,959
Speaker 1: interface makes it way easier for people who don't know

503
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 1: much about how the computer works or understanding directories and

504
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: commands and all that stuff to use it because it's intuitive.

505
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 1: It's easy. You just look at the thing, you recognize

506
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: that you click on it. All that, but also those

507
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: graphical user interfaces I think led to all of the

508
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: ways that computers are now just completely attention monopolizing devices.

509
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 1: Absolutely so Ward basically concludes that we'll have to go

510
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 1: one of three different ways as humans continuitive to evolve. Uh.

511
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: There's these There's the stasis direction, where we mainly just

512
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 1: stay the same but with minor tweaks, and also a

513
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: kind of merging of races. There's also a speciation in

514
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: which we break off into different species. Uh, you know,

515
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: and hopefully none of them are are more locks. Because

516
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: ultimately a speciation is the maw that H. G. Wells

517
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: explores in the Time Machine, and then he also talks

518
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 1: about the board grout, which is symbiosis with machines. I

519
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: find it kind of hard to believe that there could

520
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: be human speciation unless you're talking about space colonization, like

521
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: fully separating human populations from one another so that they

522
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: cannot physically come together at all for you know, hundreds

523
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: of hundreds of years. Even if you sent some of

524
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: them below ground to man all the machines and keep

525
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: the surface world running. Well, I guess it would depend

526
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: on whether you could go back and forth between I mean,

527
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: I think as long as humans stay in physical contact

528
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: with each other, I find it hard to believe that

529
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: there will be actual human speciation. But then, yeah, space

530
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: colonization does seem like that creates a kind of like

531
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: a certain hard divide. It is it is the equivalent

532
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: of having a species wind up on an island and

533
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: uh and and coeval. So Ward doesn't specifically chime in

534
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: on the six finger thing, It doesn't refto that, but

535
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: he does dismiss the idea of giant brained, futurized humans

536
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: like we see in the sixth Finger. He says, quote,

537
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: the big brain vision has no real scientific basis. The

538
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: fossil record of skull sizes over the past several thousand

539
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: generations shows that our days of rapid increase in brain

540
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: size are long over. Yeah. In fact, we we already peaked, right,

541
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: We're we're Our average brain sizes in the modern world

542
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: are smaller than they used to be. Yeah. But ultimately,

543
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: this episode of Outer Limits is not just about biological evolution.

544
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: Is about the evolution of of what it means to

545
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: be human. You know, can is there a potential for

546
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: us to change in a more meaningful way? Can we become,

547
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: for instance, more empathetic? Can we become more present as

548
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: a species kinder? Uh? This is the idea that the

549
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: episode is playing with and hoping for and and ultimately,

550
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: like that's where it gets to. At the end with this,

551
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: he the character, while he's still more human, is you know,

552
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: possessed by this this quest for vengeance against the people

553
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: who operate the MO and in which he works. And

554
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: by the end of it, he has evolved beyond these

555
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: feelings of vengeance. Like there's a period in the in

556
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: the episode where he wants to use his crazy uh

557
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: you know, future brain powers to go you know, wreak

558
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: havoc on them, but by the end of it he realizes, no,

559
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: that is not the way. Well, I would say, I

560
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: think it certainly is possible for us to become more empathetic,

561
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: um uh you know, less vengeful and violent and all

562
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. But I don't think you necessarily

563
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: need biological changes for that to happen. I mean, I

564
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: think we've seen massive changes in the levels of like

565
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: violence and vengefulness you see in the average person across

566
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: different societies through time, and the main changes are through

567
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: like culture, like like social norms, how children are educated,

568
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: what's acceptable socially within your friend groups, and the culture. Right,

569
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: so changes in the software as opposed to the hardware. Yeah,

570
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: but then of course we have to we have to

571
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: consider like the rate which software can change, at the

572
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: rate of which it may evolve. Uh, you know how

573
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: no matter how pleasant uh human civilization's current software, maybe

574
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,239
Speaker 1: how much has to happen to it to make it

575
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: well to to use a naughty word on this show,

576
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: devolve into some lesser state. Well, yeah, I mean, I

577
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: guess that's the danger. I mean, yeah, cultural changes can

578
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: can be undone, maybe as quickly as they can be done,

579
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: or even quicker. By the way, I was reading about

580
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: the original script and the production of this episode of

581
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: The Outer Limits, and according to the Outer Limits companion

582
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: by David J. Scoe, Uh, Dorothy Brown, the ABC sensor

583
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: at the time, had objected to the Darwinism and promotion

584
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: of evolution inherent in the sixth finger so one. In fact,

585
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: one of the early deletions from the script was a

586
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: speech on the topic of evolution. Well that's funny, I

587
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: mean again, like to really explore the what's happening to

588
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: the character in the episode is not actually Darwinian evolution.

589
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: But but that's funny. Yeah, I mean, I guess it

590
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: does rely on the idea that there's like a roadmap

591
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: for our species generally, which also is not part of

592
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: Darwinian evolution. So it's not like they're not really hitting

593
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: the viewer over the head with you know, a hardcore

594
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: speech on evolution. But I think just the mere fact

595
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: that they were citing evolution and speaking speaking of evolution um,

596
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: and the works of Darwin as being you know, something

597
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: that we can actually you know, hang our scientific hat

598
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: on um. They were afraid it was going to offend people.

599
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean I I grew up surrounded by

600
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: that kind of opposition and and sensitivity to ideas about evolution.

601
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: But I I don't know, despite that, I'm kind of

602
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: surprised that it made ABC censorship priorities, especially in a

603
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: show like this, which you know, ultimately is you know,

604
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: kind of high minded and stuffy. Well, I guess also

605
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: trading and science fiction, which would have had a you

606
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: know a certain amount of appeal to younger audiences as well.

607
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: But still say, this is a pretty solid episode of

608
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: The Outer Limits. I think it stands up really well today.

609
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: Uh you have to go into it knowing you're not

610
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: going to get an action packed, um you know episode here.

611
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: This is this is a very talky episode, but it's

612
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: it's really solid, well shot, well acted, um worth checking out.

613
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the best anthology sci fi

614
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: and horror episodes are not actually action packed. Uh. They

615
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: often tend to be rather subdued, just dealing with a

616
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: strange idea as discussed by a handful of characters. Yeah,

617
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: and you know, sometimes you do see this kind of

618
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: unevenness to perceived budget of a show, Like you know

619
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: that some of those anthology episodes maybe they had a

620
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: had a few more bucks to spend on the cast,

621
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: on the locations, and some are essentially kind of bottle

622
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: episodes where there's just like one set or it's it's

623
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: almost kind of a stage piece, but there's you know

624
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: when it when it's really well done, you know, that

625
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: will certainly get you there to serve man, is an

626
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: action packed either is? Yeah, it's just And that's the

627
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: one that we talked about last year. Right, Speaking of Joe,

628
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: what is your selection your final selection for this year's

629
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: Anthology of Horror Episodes? Well, I wanted to talk about

630
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: my favorite all time Simpson's Treehouse of Horror episode, Citizen Kang.

631
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: This is from Simpson's tree House of Horror seven. It

632
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: originally aired October n and I think this is this

633
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: is not only one of my favorite uh Simpson's bits, ever,

634
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: I think it is some of the best political satire

635
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: in American media history. Yeah. This this is just a

636
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: great tree House episode period. I rewatched it the other

637
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: night with the family, and I must have seen it

638
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: a dozen times in the in the past, because, in

639
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 1: addition to Citizen Kang, it also contains the genesis tub.

640
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: This is where Lise's tooth grows the civil of civilization

641
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: after it gets a little static shock from Bart, which

642
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: is very similar to a tale by George R. Martin

643
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: that was adapted by the ninety nineties revival of The

644
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: Outer Limits more or less along the same time. And

645
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: then this episode also has The Thing and I, which

646
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: is a great more of sort of a straight up

647
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: horror piece, which contains a twist ending that I have

648
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: to say is nearly identical to the twist ending of

649
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: a certain top twenty nineteen horror film. Okay, well, let's

650
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: not say any more than that. I think you know

651
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: the one, right, I know exactly what you're talking about,

652
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: but I don't want to spoil it for anybody else.

653
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: All Right, we need to take a quick commercial break,

654
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: but we will be right back. Okay. So this Simpson's

655
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: Tree House of Horror again. It aired at the end

656
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: of October nineteen and at the time it actually aired,

657
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: the United States was right in the final days of

658
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: a presidential election that was pitting incumbent Democratic President Bill

659
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: Clinton against Republican Senator Bob Dole from Kansas. And in

660
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: this Tree House of Horror segment, alien invaders Kang and Kodos,

661
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: who are from a certain ringed planet who they prefer

662
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: not to mention um. They plot to take of the

663
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: world by body snatching both Clinton and Dole and taking

664
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: their places in the election as lookalikes, and the idea

665
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: is stated pretty directly by Kang. In the Guys of

666
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 1: Bob Dole, a reporter asks the Kang Dole Senator Dole,

667
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 1: why should people vote for you instead of President Clinton?

668
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: And Kang Dole responds, it makes no difference which one

669
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: of us you vote for. Either way, your planet is doomed.

670
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: Doomed replacing both. That's a good idea, right, Yeah, then

671
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: there's no risk, right either way, they're gonna win. Yeah.

672
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: So in this uh, in this little plot, Homer becomes

673
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: aware of the alien takeover plot because he happened to

674
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: be on the alien ship when Clinton and Dole were replicated.

675
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: So he decides he's got to reveal Kang and Kodos

676
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: for what they are, So he runs on stage at

677
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: an event I think at the Capitol Building where both

678
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: candidates are speaking, and he rips off their disguises, revealing

679
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: them both as hideous space reptiles. But Kangan Kodos seem

680
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: unfair as to declaring, It's true we are aliens, but

681
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: what are you going to do about it? It's a

682
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: two party system. You have to vote for one of us.

683
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 1: And then somebody in the crowd suggests voting for a

684
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: third party candidate, and Kodo says, go ahead, throw your

685
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: vote away. So the Americans, of course, end up electing Kang,

686
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: who immediately enslaves all humans and he puts them to

687
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: work constructing a giant laser to aim at some third,

688
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: unspecify unspecified planet. And then Marge laments the state of

689
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: affairs that they're they're suffering under right now, and Homer

690
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: smugly declares, don't blame me. I voted for Kodos. I

691
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: think this this might be the best nine minutes of

692
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: political science, satire, and American pop culture history. Uh, and

693
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to be misunderstood there based on some

694
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: of the themes in the episode, because, of course, a

695
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: major theme here is the pointlessness and futility of some

696
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: parts of the democratic process. I don't want to be

697
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 1: mistake and for saying I think it makes no difference

698
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: who you vote for for president, or that all politicians

699
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: are the same. You know, I think that's the kind

700
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: of thing that it's like easy to say and feel

701
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: superior about saying when you don't want to put in

702
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: the work to learn what's going on and what's at stake. Right.

703
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: It was the kind of statement I would have found

704
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,720
Speaker 1: very attractive when I was like a first year college student,

705
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 1: kind of intellectually lazy but wanting to stake ammorl claim. Yeah,

706
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: are wanting to to differentiate yourself from you know, the

707
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: politics that you might have been born into. It's easier

708
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: instead of saying, actually, I disagree with you completely and

709
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: I go to this side, you can just say, oh,

710
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: I think I don't sorry, I don't go for any

711
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: of it, right, Yeah, you know I can remember being

712
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: like that. I wanted to have a strong opinion without

713
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 1: having to do the work to earn an opinion. So

714
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: I don't think that way anymore. But at the same time,

715
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 1: while I don't generally feel the field that's always true

716
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 1: about elections, I think there is some real cutting wisdom

717
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: in that satire, because even though it's not the case

718
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: that all politicians are the same in elections don't matter,

719
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: people often overestimate how much their democratic choice will make

720
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: a difference to particular issues they really care about. Uh.

721
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many big problems that you thought

722
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: electing the right person might solve, and then that person

723
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: was elected and the problem stayed the same or got worse.

724
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: But even more than that, I think this episode is

725
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: brilliant at highlighting the absurd and nonsensical conclusions often reached

726
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: by group choice algorithms that we follow in our politics.

727
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: And that's sort of what I wanted to look at

728
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: here in relation to this episode. In that vein, I

729
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: want to explore the question of whether or not the

730
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 1: election of Kang is an example of the Abilene paradox. Robert,

731
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: had you ever come across this concept before? I don't

732
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 1: believe I had. Yeah, I I think this is very

733
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: useful to have in your tool kit of of concepts

734
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: to apply to the world, because it's absolutely something that

735
00:39:55,640 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: explains many unfortunate group behaviors in politics, in business, even

736
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: in like family vacations and and hang outs with your friends.

737
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 1: Uh So, this paradox was explained in a nineteen seventy

738
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 1: four paper by the George Washington University scholar Jerry B. Harvey,

739
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: which was published in the journal Organizational Dynamics. And I'm

740
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 1: going to give a kind of updated scenario here for

741
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: you to consider. So imagine the following scenario. You are

742
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: hanging out with your friends p J, Nancy, and Jamie Lee.

743
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: It's October, You're all just finished babysitting. You're at Nancy's

744
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: house carving a pumpkin, and you're watching an old Howard

745
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: Hawks movie on TV, The Thing from Another World. You're

746
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,720
Speaker 1: hanging out, You're having an okay time. But then suddenly

747
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: Nancy says, hey, does anybody want to go out and

748
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: see a movie? And PJ says, yeah, that could be cool.

749
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 1: Let's see what's playing. So you look up show times

750
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: at the local theater and the only show left tonight

751
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 1: is a midnight showing of The Purge seventeen as the

752
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: World purges. Uh. So, PJ says, yeah, we could see

753
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: that if you guys want, and Nancy says, yeah, okay,

754
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: I could be down to go to the urge and

755
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: Jamie Lee says, sure, if you two want to see it,

756
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 1: I'm in. So since all of your friends agreed, you

757
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: resign yourself. You say, okay, let's see it. Tickets are

758
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: fourteen dollars a piece. Uh. The movie stars Fred Durst

759
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: and Tim Allen. It's three and a half hours long.

760
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: At multiple moments, you consider leaving the theater, but you

761
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: don't want to go out alone and leave your friends behind.

762
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 1: So you sit through this whole terrible movie, and when

763
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: the credits finally roll, you leave the theater with a

764
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 1: throbbing headache, and you immediately ask why did we do

765
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: that to ourselves? And Jamie Lee says, I don't know.

766
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: It sounded pretty bad to me, but I thought the

767
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: rest of you wanted to see it, and Nancy says, well,

768
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: I didn't want to see it. I just thought the

769
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: rest of you did, and p J says, well, don't

770
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: look at me. I just said I was okay with

771
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: it if you guys wanted to go. Weren't you the

772
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: one who suggested it? And Nancy, the one who did

773
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: suggest going to a movie, finally says, well, I just

774
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: thought you guys might be bored hanging out at the house.

775
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: So it turns out that none of the four of

776
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: you actually wanted to see this movie, and yet somehow

777
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: you collectively decided it would be the best thing to

778
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: do with your time together. Everybody agreed on a course

779
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 1: of action that nobody individually wanted. Robert, Can I assume

780
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: this experience is somewhat familiar to you? Yeah? Maybe from

781
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: I think probably the best example I can think of

782
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: is like when as a family when I was a kid,

783
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: sometimes we would agree on what to watch, and you know,

784
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 1: sometimes it's something that one of us had a definite

785
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: steak in, but other times it it kind of felt

786
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: like this, where we ended up agreeing to watch a

787
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: movie just because it was it was a major film

788
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: that came out, and we're like, okay, I guess we're

789
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: watching Oh uh God. I can't even think of a

790
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: good example of just something, you know, whatever the big

791
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: mainstream family film was that had hit theaters and was

792
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: now on VHS. Christmas with the Cranks well, maybe not

793
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: that bad, but but stuff stuff like that. Yeah, yeah,

794
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: So this would be a prime example of what Harvey

795
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: calls the Abeleean paradox, and the Abilene paradox comes from

796
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: the story Jerry Harvey tells to open his paper. It's

797
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: similar to the story I told, but it's about a

798
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: family in Texas making a long drive to Abilene in

799
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 1: a non air conditioned car in hot weather. It's a

800
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: completely miserable experience, as you would expect, and it turns

801
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: out nobody actually wanted to go to Abilene in the

802
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: first place. Every member of the family just thought the

803
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 1: other family members wanted to go and then failed to

804
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: communicate their actual preferences. And as Harvey puts it in

805
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 1: his article, the Abilene paradox is the fact that quote

806
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: organizations frequently take actions in contradiction to what they really

807
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: want to do and therefore defeat the very purposes they're

808
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 1: trying to achieve. And any characterizes the Abilene paradox, says,

809
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 1: not a failure to manage disagreement, but a failure to

810
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: manage agreement. Uh So, when I first read about this

811
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: at some point in the past couple of years, I

812
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: was like, oh, my God, this kind of thing. I

813
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: recognize so much of this in the world. How have

814
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 1: I gone this long without a name for it? It

815
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 1: seems to me to be a problem for group choice

816
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: at all kinds of levels. Again, you mentioned you know

817
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: a family trying to decide what movie to see, but

818
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: you know a group of friends trying to decide what

819
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: to do how to spend their Sunday, or a democratic

820
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 1: society trying to elect their leaders. Many kinds of group

821
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 1: choice problems I think arise, of course, from the inability

822
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: to manage conflict. But this is the opposite. Har Harvey

823
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: argues that even more group choice problems arise from the

824
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: inability to manage agreement. And another real world example that

825
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: Harvey gives in his paper is the Watergate scandal. He

826
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 1: he quotes a number of people who involved in Nixon's

827
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,760
Speaker 1: came the Nixon campaign's dirty Tricks team, who all claimed

828
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: privately that they had doubts not only about the morality

829
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: about but about the practical wisdom of their scheme that

830
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: to each of them privately, seemed like the payoffs were

831
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: not really worth the risks, But they each assumed they

832
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 1: were the only one with such doubts and thus acted

833
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 1: along with the rest of the group in a way

834
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 1: that hurt all of them, even though they privately, most

835
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 1: or all thought it was a bad idea. So it's

836
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: like Nixon wants to purge, Lily wants to purge. So

837
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: I guess, I mean, I don't really want to purge,

838
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: But if everybody's in the mood to purge, I guess

839
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: I'm in right and Uh. In a lot of his paper,

840
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: Harvey just analyzes what he sees, or like the he

841
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 1: he thinks the common organizational symptoms of the Abilene paradox.

842
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 1: For example, he talks about the idea of action anxiety. Yeah.

843
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: He explains this by quoting Shakespeare's Hamlet. He says, action

844
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: anxiety is that which quote makes us rather bear those

845
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: ills we have than fly to others we know not,

846
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 1: of which, of course, is what you know. Hamlet talks

847
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: about the idea of going on through pain rather than

848
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: like ending it and going on to see what undiscovered

849
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,479
Speaker 1: country lies beyond the grave. Um. But it's a fear

850
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: of acting on your actual preferences an environment that makes

851
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: pursuing the path that you don't want seem like the

852
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: less scary option. Than asking for the path that you

853
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 1: do want. Well, that's also touched on a little bit

854
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: in Macbeth, right, the idea about it having waited so

855
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: far through the blood that it's better to just go

856
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: on through to the other side of this this blood

857
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: lake than to turn back around, even if turning back

858
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 1: around is what you really want to do. Yeah, and

859
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: he and Harvey roots a lot of this actually and

860
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: appeals to human psychology, says, you know, some of our

861
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: greatest fears are expressed as negative fantasies about fear, about

862
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: fears of separation and ostracization. You know, it's like terrifying

863
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: to be the one to step out and say I'm

864
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: going to challenge the momentum of this group that you know, that, like,

865
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: whether it's even in simple things like going out to

866
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 1: a movie, Like you're going out to a movie with friends.

867
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe you're comfortable enough with the friends to

868
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:53,919
Speaker 1: say no, actually, I don't want to do this. But

869
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 1: like a lot of times, especially if you don't know

870
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: people as well, you'd rather just not be thought of

871
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,919
Speaker 1: as the jerk who who said let's not do it. Yeah,

872
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: because you're engaging and you're you're kind of engaging in

873
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: this group. Think you know, I think it's something as

874
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: simple as say, like a group of friends getting together

875
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 1: to to play Dungeons and Dragons. You know you're not,

876
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: you know, you're not a dirty tricks UH counsel or whatever.

877
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 1: You know you're not. All you're doing is just trying

878
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: to hang out and play a game. But you know,

879
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 1: still don't want to shake the boat if somebody wants

880
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: to get fried pickles, you know, um, even if you

881
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: really don't care for fried pickles all that much, right,

882
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: But maybe the person who suggested it doesn't either, and

883
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: they're just saying because they thought somebody else did. Yeah,

884
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 1: and so you reach a point where every week you

885
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 1: order fried pickles, even though nobody's really crazy about fried pickles,

886
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: and everybody probably feels a little bad about eating them

887
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: every week. Yeah. So in the end, Harvey comes up

888
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: with a couple of recommendations for diagnosing and dealing with

889
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: UH with abilene paradox is in a business context. Unfortunately,

890
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: there's no special magic trick. Basically, he says he thinks

891
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: the best way to deal with it is for an

892
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 1: authority figure who detects they sit uation like this to

893
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,240
Speaker 1: call a meeting, frankly articulate their doubts in a group

894
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 1: setting and then ask others to share their honest thoughts.

895
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,919
Speaker 1: If you're an authority figure, you have you know, it's

896
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: safer for you to go out on a limb and

897
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 1: question the direction that you're going in, all right, I mean,

898
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,280
Speaker 1: that's that's why they make the big bucks, right this,

899
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 1: this is the this is the moment when they can

900
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: really earn that higher pay that the higher pay grade,

901
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: right right, be the authority figure that comes in and

902
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 1: shuts down, uh, you know, things that nobody really wants

903
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 1: to do, or that there's no real advantage to doing

904
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: from a business standpoint. Yeah. Now, in the political context,

905
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: I think the Kang in Kodos situation kind of highlights

906
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 1: a satirical absurd version of this, with the idea that uh,

907
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: you know, obviously humans would all recognize like, okay, we

908
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 1: we are all in agreement. We're in agreement. We don't

909
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: want either Kang or Kodos. That's the position shared by

910
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:56,280
Speaker 1: everybody voting at this point. But they're able to cause

911
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: this action anxiety about organizing any kind of third option

912
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: and the idea of throwing your vote away on any

913
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,720
Speaker 1: kind of third party candidate. When you've got kang in Kodos,

914
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,800
Speaker 1: there is going out on a limb. You fear ostracization,

915
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 1: you fear being separated, you fear being different, And so

916
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: eventually they just kind of decide, well, which one will

917
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 1: I take? Kanger Kodos, And despite everybody agreeing that neither

918
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: option is wanted, but it keeps everybody together. I mean,

919
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 1: humanity is united at the end in their enslavement to

920
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 1: these uh, these terrible alien overlords. No they're not. They're

921
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 1: still bickering. Don't blame me. That's genius of it is there.

922
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 1: I mean, they're essentially unified, but they still have the

923
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: mindset of division. Uh uh yeah. And so I think

924
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: the way around that, of course, would be that it

925
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,280
Speaker 1: requires some kind of uh risk of leadership for somebody

926
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 1: to say, hey, wait a minute, can we try to

927
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 1: organize some way to get around this too? You know,

928
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: the two options we've got here that we all agree

929
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: we don't want it sounds like a really wicked problem

930
00:49:57,960 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 1: to deal with. Well, yeah, I mean, I think the

931
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 1: point the writers are making there is that we're just

932
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 1: not good at organizing that kind of agreement effectively. Now

933
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 1: what do we do about the fact that we're often

934
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: not good at managing agreement and this leads to repeated

935
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 1: absurdities like the kang and like the election of kang

936
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: Um Well he actually, Harvey ends his paper with a

937
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 1: strangely philosophical note for an organizational dynamics paper. Uh. He

938
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: says that, you know, sometimes these situations simply cannot be resolved,

939
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: and he calls to mind the myth of Sysyphus, the

940
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: character from Greek mythology who was condemned to forever repeat

941
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,399
Speaker 1: the task of pushing a boulder up a hill, only

942
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 1: for it to fall back down to the bottom again,

943
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: making a mockery of his efforts, says not only painful

944
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: but pointless. Uh. And in Albert Camus version of the myth,

945
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: he adds a detail that sometimes, in his endless loop

946
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: of absurd toil, Sisyphus would get near the top of

947
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: the hill, but then release the boulder of his own accord,

948
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: letting it roll back down to the bottom on purpose

949
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 1: and her he says, in this act he could transcend

950
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: the absurdity of his struggle. Uh. And I think this

951
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: is sort of the bull's eye of existential philosophy. Right,

952
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: life is absurd, and you transcend that absurdity by recognizing

953
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 1: your radical freedom and acting authentically, which means basically without

954
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: lying to yourself about the absurdity of life. Like this

955
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 1: is when you write in a third candidate. Now, I

956
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: think actually, in this case it might be more like

957
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 1: voting for Kang or not voting or something while while

958
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 1: recognizing the absurdity and unwinnable nous of the scenario. So

959
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's the best thing to do

960
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: in the alien election. I would say, actually try to

961
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: organize the third party. But I think the uh, this

962
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: whole discussion actually does bring us back to real questions

963
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 1: about the field of astro politics. I mean, this is

964
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: something I think we could devote whole episodes to in

965
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 1: the future. There's actually a field of study and people

966
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: have written about like what would happen if aliens arrived

967
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 1: on Earth, Like what would be the political response to that?

968
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:05,240
Speaker 1: How would different world economic and military powers behave? Uh,

969
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 1: you know, would we all band together, would we put

970
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: aside our differences and our self interest and say we

971
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,439
Speaker 1: need to organize an act together as Earth? Or would

972
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: aliens be able to exploit our petty grievances and our

973
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 1: differences and turn us against one another. And I think, unfortunately,

974
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,320
Speaker 1: I think there are some pretty good signs pointing towards

975
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: the ladder. Yeah, I mean, our only model for intelligent

976
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,800
Speaker 1: life in the cosmos is is our model of intelligent

977
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: life of of a technologically advanced civilization. And when we

978
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: look at the way that uh, you know, certainly the

979
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: way civilizations have interacted with each other, and I certainly

980
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:45,879
Speaker 1: look at the way that you know, Western colonization, how

981
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: that transpired, and we see time and time again of

982
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: basically the Kyan Kodos model manipulate their their leaders and

983
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 1: their leadership, corrupt their uh, their their rule, and work

984
00:52:56,360 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: one side against the other, ultimately overpower and bring enslavement

985
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: and death. I mean, that's that is the story of

986
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: of human history, sadly. And so when we look to

987
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: the stars, you know, there are plenty of people have said, well,

988
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: that's basically what we can expect based on our models,

989
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 1: based on our knowledge of our self, knowledge of how

990
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 1: we work, that is what we can expect from a

991
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: superior technological force. Like we want to imagine the independence

992
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 1: day scenario where we all come together and join forces,

993
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: but I don't know. I don't want to be overly optimistic. Yeah,

994
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, unless we look to our optimism

995
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: in the sixth finger. And I think a lot of

996
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 1: people have, I mean a lot of certainly the various

997
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 1: um New Age religions that have popped up around the

998
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: idea of aliens, you know, that they look to aliens

999
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: as a possibly we're all we're all messed up in

1000
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: this world and we're you know, we we have just

1001
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: committed crime after crime, and we're shackled to the terror

1002
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,399
Speaker 1: of history. Maybe something will come down from above that

1003
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 1: has evolved beyond the state and that can guide us,

1004
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 1: that can help us find this new uh, you know,

1005
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 1: shape of being uh. And you know, maybe that's the case.

1006
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 1: But again, if we're looking at our own example of

1007
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 1: intelligent life, I'm not sure that that's going to happen.

1008
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: I wouldn't put hope in aliens being being a good

1009
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: influence on us. I wouldn't put hope in us biologically

1010
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 1: evolving beyond our our petty grievances and all that. I

1011
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: think the hope lies in culture, unfortunately, and thus it

1012
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:32,240
Speaker 1: is up to people like writers and political leaders and

1013
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: those kinds of figures to help shape human culture in

1014
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 1: a way that that allows us to to act collectively

1015
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: in our own best interest. I know that's not the

1016
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: easiest thing to put hope in, but I think that

1017
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: might be the only hope personally. Yeah. I mean, well,

1018
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 1: that's that's that's the hard answer, that's the difficult answer.

1019
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: But it's that's that's the one that requires us to work.

1020
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 1: That's the one that requires us to do the heavy

1021
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 1: lifting here. Yeah, we've got to fix our own problems

1022
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:03,879
Speaker 1: mostly using word Yeah, alright, I'm sure we'll come back

1023
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:06,760
Speaker 1: to this topic in the future because oh, I definitely

1024
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: I think we could do some stuff on astro politics absolutely, Yeah, yeah,

1025
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: I would be down for that, absolutely. But there you

1026
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 1: have it. This is gonna be our third installment of

1027
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:21,359
Speaker 1: the Anthology of Horror uh Kangan kodos Willing we will

1028
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: return next October with at least one at least a

1029
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: volume four, if not a volume four and five, And

1030
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 1: of course, ironically that'll be pretty much just uh you know,

1031
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 1: right before the like the peak moment of American politics

1032
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,720
Speaker 1: heading into the next presidential election. Probably won't do politics

1033
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: when then probably not all right, in the meantime, if

1034
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: you want to check out other episodes of Stuff to

1035
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind, head on over to stuff to Blow

1036
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. That's where you'll find them. You

1037
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 1: can also find the podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

1038
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,359
Speaker 1: But again, this was how our Anthology of Horror Volume three,

1039
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 1: Volume two came out Tuesday, and we reran volume one

1040
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,399
Speaker 1: for the weekend. Also, if you want to check out

1041
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:05,240
Speaker 1: our other show, Invention, you can find that at invention

1042
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 1: pod dot com and that's available everywhere you get your podcasts.

1043
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 1: Oh and also the fiction podcast the Second oil Age

1044
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: launched as well. The first three episodes of that are

1045
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: live wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, congratulations man, Well,

1046
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. Alright, uh so that's it for

1047
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: this episode. Certainly we have not seen all of the

1048
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 1: Horror Anthology episodes out there. Uh, we are not familiar

1049
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 1: with all the shows. So from now until next October,

1050
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 1: if you have specific episodes of various anthology shows you

1051
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 1: would like us to consider for next time, let us know.

1052
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: If they're just whole shows, whole buckets of content that

1053
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 1: we're not aware of, please enlighten us. One of the

1054
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 1: cool places you can find us for that, uh is

1055
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,399
Speaker 1: our our Facebook discussion group. That is the stuff Doable

1056
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: your Mind discussion module. Go check that out huge. Thanks

1057
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 1: as always to our excellent audio producer, Seth Nicholas Johnson.

1058
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 1: No wait, death, Nicholas Johnson. That's right. If you would

1059
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us directly with feedback

1060
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

1061
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hello, you can

1062
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,959
Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

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Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeart Radios. How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from

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Speaker 1: my heart Radio is the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.