1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Hi, There is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media, and we're 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: back with a fantastic new true crime series, Death and 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: Deceit in Alliance. This series is a little different from 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: others we've done. It's a live investigation, meaning that the 5 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: reporter host is publishing information almost at the same time 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: she learns it, and we her listeners, side by side 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: with her or ear by ear with her, are figuring 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: it out as the series unrolls. Luckily, we're in great hands. 9 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: Our host reporter is Maggie Freeling, who is one of 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: true crime's more interesting creators these days. Maggie won a 11 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize for her work on Suave, a great podcast 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: you should check out. She's been a champion of the 13 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted since way before it was popular, and in 14 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: this show, it's that championing that leads to terrible complications 15 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: for the podcast and for herself. It broke me, she says. 16 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: This is Maggie's creator's cut of a show originally released 17 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen. For access to all fourteen episodes, ad 18 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: free and all at once, subscribe with Apple Podcasts on 19 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: our show page. 20 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 2: Enjoy the Worst Thing that Happened to Me As a 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 2: journalist occurred while making this podcast formerly called Murder an Alliance. 22 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty one, myself and two private investigators embarked 23 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 2: on a real time investigation to see if a convicted 24 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: murderer was innocent. For twenty two years, he maintained that 25 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 2: he was. Initially, the case seemed straightforward, a scandal ridden 26 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 2: small town police department who used psychics and coercion to 27 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: get results. I was sure the wrong people were in prison. 28 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: In fact, I wasn't alone, many journalists did. But once 29 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: I was on the ground in Ohio with the pis interviewing, investigating, 30 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 2: setting up billboards and tip lines, I was not ready 31 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: for what we found. The deeper we dug, the more 32 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:19,119 Speaker 2: unsettling our findings became. I found myself questioning everything. Were 33 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: my instincts wrong or was there something actually profoundly off 34 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 2: about this case? The conclusion broke me for a bit, 35 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 2: But now, almost five years later, I'm staring down this 36 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 2: case once more with a new lens because it remains 37 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: one of the most impactful events of my life. The 38 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: timing of release is also significant because I encounter this 39 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: exact issue in my latest investigation called Bone Valley. Graves County. 40 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 2: I encountered a journalist in my reporting who refused to 41 00:02:55,240 --> 00:03:00,119 Speaker 2: discuss his mistakes and instead doubled down. It made me 42 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: think of my own journey, and consequently I thought it 43 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 2: was the perfect time to re examine my mistake instead 44 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: of hide from it. It is crucial to discuss are 45 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 2: all two human fallibilities as journalists. It not only keeps 46 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 2: us honest, but it also keeps us humble. 47 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 3: Today. 48 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 4: Date of July fourteenth, nineteen ninety nine, Wednesday, it's thirteen 49 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 4: or nine hours. My name is Detective Bud Sampson. We're 50 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 4: in the we're avent a police department interview room. 51 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 5: Along with me. 52 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 4: Is Detective William Mucklow and Detective John Leach of the 53 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 4: Alliance Police Department. Also in the room is Joseph Isaac 54 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 4: Book and we're in best getting his honest side of 55 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 4: Yvonne Lee? Can you tell us you're part in this? 56 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: The tape you're listening to is Joe Wilkes, a nineteen 57 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 2: year old boy confessing to murder. 58 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 6: She was like, Hey, what are you doing here? She goes, 59 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 6: I haven't seen you in a long time. I was like, oh, 60 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 6: they did, just wanting need to stop buy and see 61 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 6: how things were. And then we're sitting talking for about 62 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 6: three to five minutes, and then okay, I know this 63 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 6: is gonna be hard. 64 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 5: We got to go through and you tell me what 65 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 5: happened here. 66 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 6: Where were you sitting when you're sitting upstairs or downstairs? 67 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 6: We were on the second floor, that the third one. Ok. 68 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 5: And we're still doing the cops talking and story. Okay, 69 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 5: the cheek it up and trying to run why run 70 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 5: up the door? 71 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 6: Did you try to run up the glass doors? 72 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 5: And then. 73 00:04:49,040 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 2: You it's saying we thought it so, Joe just said, 74 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: David told me to David as in David Thorn. On 75 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,239 Speaker 2: April first, nineteen ninety nine, twenty six year old Yvonne 76 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 2: Lane was found with her throat slashed dead in her 77 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 2: home in Alliance, Ohio. 78 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 7: Twenty six year old Ivonne Lane, a beautiful, vivacious woman, 79 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 7: found in a pool of her own blood, her throat 80 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 7: slashed while her children slapped. 81 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 2: She was discovered by her mother, who had arrived to 82 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 2: take her six year old grandchild to kindergarten. Yvonne was 83 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 2: a mother to five kids. David Thorn was the father 84 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 2: of one of the children. Although he and Yvonne were 85 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: not together anymore. 86 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 7: The murder of a mother of five in her own 87 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 7: home stunt the small town of Alliance, Ohio. 88 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 2: David had recently been ordered to pay child support three 89 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty one dollars a month, and Joe said 90 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: in his confession that he was hired by David Thorn 91 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 2: to kill Yvaughn so he didn't have to pay and 92 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: so he could have his son to himself, the. 93 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 7: Father of one of the children. The motive child support 94 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 7: Thorn was ordered to pay. 95 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: To the untrained listener at one point myself too. This 96 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 2: seems like a pretty clear cut case, someone confessing and 97 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: someone with a motive. But when you start deaking, going 98 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 2: through documents and talking to people, the more complicated things get, 99 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: and it seems like just about everyone around Yvonne also 100 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: had a motive to kill her. This is death and 101 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: deceit and Alliance a real time investigation into whether David 102 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: Thorn killed ev Lane. I'm Maggie Freeling. The murder of 103 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: Yvonne Lane and David Thorne's claims of innocence were never 104 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: the feature of a Netflix film or made for TV series, 105 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: but it wasn't a blip on the radar either journalists 106 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 2: were drawn to it. 107 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 7: For years, the attack grabbed headlines as police hunted for 108 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 7: a killer. 109 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 2: Like investigative journalist Dwayne Pullman, who you also heard in 110 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: the previous clips. Dwayne looked into David's claims for three years. However, 111 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: that was over a decade ago, and since then, former prosecutors, 112 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 2: private investigators, sleuth's and the like have all looked into 113 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: David's claim of innocence. Yet the question still remains. 114 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 7: Did the system convict the wrong man? 115 00:07:55,320 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 2: So here we are. Since Yvonne's murder, David has continued 116 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 2: n Nuali said he had no involvement. He says he 117 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 2: never paid Joe Wilkes or anyone to murder his ex 118 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: girlfriend and the mother of his child. When you make 119 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: it to David's official website WCODT dot org, you discover 120 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: that this was an incredibly brutal murder. Yvonn Lane's throat 121 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: was slit to the spine, almost decapitating her. Blood was 122 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 2: all over the house. 123 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 4: She begins to spur blood, pumping blood violently out of 124 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 4: her neck. 125 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 2: The living room where her body was found looks like 126 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: someone took buckets of blood and threw it around the room. 127 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 2: It just didn't look like a hit or a random 128 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 2: murder to me. This looked personal. Police had to process 129 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: this absolute mess of a room, which I'm sure was 130 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 2: not easy, especially because they also had to get four 131 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: of her kids out of the house, because all but 132 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 2: one of her children were home when she was killed, 133 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 2: but they were too young to be helpful to the police. 134 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: That is, except for one of them, a four year 135 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 2: old who'd play a part in the investigation. The police 136 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 2: say they tried to get the kids through the crime 137 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 2: scene without seeing their mother's body, So some flubs may 138 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 2: be understandable if they're focusing on the boys, but not 139 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 2: to the extent that happened here. Part of the problem 140 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 2: may just be in experience. Murders in Alliance are rare. 141 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 2: A bad year might see two homicides, but most the 142 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: city saw just one. If any I feel confident saying 143 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 2: at minimum they were not ready to deal with this 144 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: particular homicide. Police say they covered Yvonne's body with a 145 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 2: blanket from one of the bedrooms, potentially contaminating any evidence 146 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: on her. As every watcher of c as I knows, 147 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: this probably wasn't best practice. No one wore shoe coverings 148 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 2: or gloves to preserve evidence, and investigators went back and 149 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 2: forth stepping over Yvonne's body when crossing the room. A 150 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: bloody footprint between her legs apparently came from a detective, 151 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: not the killer, and the chief even brought a woman, 152 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 2: a civilian, into the crime scene. It was an absolute disaster. 153 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: Evidence was collected from the scene and never tested, and 154 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 2: the evidence that was didn't match David or Joe. Yet 155 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: the case still made it to trial, and that's thanks 156 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 2: to Joe's confession, the one you heard part of at 157 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 2: the top of the episode. The prosecutor said that David 158 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 2: hired Joe to kill Yvonne, and as you heard, that's 159 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 2: the story that Joe told. He said David gave him 160 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 2: three hundred dollars to kill Yvonne. His confession, Joe took 161 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 2: the police to the alleged murder weapon, a three inch 162 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 2: pocket knife that he said he tossed in a storm drain. 163 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 2: He also showed them where he disposed of the pants 164 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 2: he allegedly wore when he killed von Another key element 165 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 2: of the States case a witness who said she saw 166 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 2: Joe the knight of the murder. Rose Moore said, Joe 167 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: told her and her boyfriend that he was on his 168 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: way to kill someone. Will come back to this later, 169 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 2: but I just want to point out that, in this version, 170 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 2: the prosecution's version, this nineteen year old was so excited 171 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 2: about an evening out with his knife to kill someone 172 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 2: that he wanted even strangers to know about it. If true, 173 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 2: Joe's boast is pretty damning, but it's worth noting that 174 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: there was no physical evidence linking even Joe to the scene. 175 00:11:55,240 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 2: No fingerprints, no shoeprints or DNA. The pants Joe allegedly 176 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 2: war when he killed Vaughan, there was no blood on them, 177 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 2: much less anything linking David to the crime. Sure, Joe 178 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 2: took cops to a knife, but there's no evidence linking 179 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 2: that knife to the murder. In fact, the prosecution will 180 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 2: rest on witness testimony alone. But some witnesses were never called. 181 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 2: And here's a key one. Keep him in mind. A 182 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: neighbor who saw a man leaving Yvonne's house in the 183 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 2: morning after her murder. He told cops that man was 184 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: not David or Joe. 185 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 8: I was not asked to test to find the trival 186 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 8: of David Thorne. I was shown a photo of David 187 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 8: Thorne in December of two thousand. That was not the 188 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 8: man I saw leaving the residents of nine sixty of mine. 189 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 8: I was showing a photo of Joseph Wilkes a contest 190 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 8: murder in December of two thousand. It was not the 191 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 8: man I saw leaving the residents of Maxix. 192 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 2: The jury never heard this, and after deliberating just the 193 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 2: three hours, David was convicted of paying Joe Wilkes three 194 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 2: hundred dollars to murder Yvonne Lane. He was sentenced to 195 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 2: life without the possibility of parole. Joe took a plea 196 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: deal of thirty to life for his cooperation. He could 197 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: be out of prison very soon. 198 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 7: It didn't take a jury long to convict David Thorn. 199 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,359 Speaker 7: Wilkes pleaded guilty. Both are now serving life sentences. 200 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: The entire conviction of David Thorn rests on Joe's testimony. 201 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 2: But was Joe telling the truth and if he was lying, 202 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 2: why he lost almost as much as David did. But 203 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 2: I'm skeptical. Hiring a hitman to kill your ex over 204 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty one dollars a month seems like 205 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: more risk than it's worth. Sure back then the amount 206 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: was more like six hundred and today's dollars, and that 207 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 2: might feel like a lot of money to fork over 208 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,599 Speaker 2: monthly if you're working at an hour job, which David was. 209 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 2: But David was making decent money at a high end 210 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 2: car shop, and compared to the motives of other folks, 211 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 2: to me, David's alleged motive appears week. Evidence uncovered in 212 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 2: later investigations pointed to other potential killers, like any one 213 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 2: of the men who fathered Yvonne's four other kids, or 214 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 2: even members of law enforcement Yvonne was reported to be 215 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 2: sleeping with or the man scene leaving her house after 216 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 2: she's presumed dead. Journalist Dwayne Pullman was equally as intrigued. 217 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 7: This case is filled with sex, secrets and surprises. 218 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: And things only got more complicated when I talked to David. 219 00:14:51,440 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: All Right, you there, yep, a little loud on that way, Okay, So. 220 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 5: How are you doing it? 221 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 2: Not too bad? When I first spoke to David, he 222 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 2: had done twenty one years, almost half of his life 223 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 2: in prison, and there seemed to be no hope. Left 224 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 2: pretty much dead in the water. 225 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 6: We need new evidence. 226 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: David didn't have a lawyer anymore. He ran out of 227 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 2: money in all of his appeals. If David's going to 228 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: get out of prison by proving his innocence, he needs 229 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 2: a lawyer and investigator to find new evidence to show 230 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: he deserves a new trial. 231 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: That's why I would have been pushing so hard is 232 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: to find a private investigator that would kind of go 233 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: ahead and kind of almost start the case anew. 234 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 2: And that's proven difficult to find. Investigators can cost thousands, 235 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: and finding someone to take a case pro bono, that is, 236 00:15:53,920 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 2: without pay, is not exactly easy. And then there was me. 237 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 2: After talking to David and reviewing case files, I had 238 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: enough questions about his conviction that I couldn't let it go. 239 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 2: I kept thinking, there really needs to be an in 240 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 2: depth investigation. Other post conviction investigations didn't necessarily take the 241 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 2: entirety of the evidence into account. One investigation might focus 242 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 2: on forensics, while another would focus on timelines. And I 243 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 2: didn't want to piecemeal others' investigations together. I wanted to 244 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 2: find out for myself if there was any truth to 245 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 2: David's claims of innocence. So many people had a motive 246 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 2: to kill Yvon, and that shook me to my core, 247 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 2: to myself and others before it seemed the cops had 248 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 2: taken the easy way out. David was the obvious suspect, 249 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 2: and they didn't really focus on anyone else. I wanted 250 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: to know who did that neighbor see leaving Yvonne's house 251 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 2: in the morning? What happened to evidence collected at the scene. 252 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 2: There was a kitchen knife, a more likely murder weapon 253 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 2: than a pocket knife, with a fingerprint that was never 254 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 2: linked to anyone, condoms and wrappers, blood smears everywhere. None 255 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 2: of it matched David, and none of it matched Joe, 256 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 2: the supposed killer. So who did it match? And here's 257 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 2: the point I keep getting stuck on. Joe confessed to 258 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,719 Speaker 2: killing Yvonne, but the connection to David is pretty slim. 259 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 2: Would David? Would anyone really hire a blabby teenager as 260 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 2: a hitman over three hundred and fifty one dollars in 261 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 2: child support? At trial, the social worker said that David 262 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 2: and Yvonne had a good relationship. So does the prosecution 263 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 2: theory sound credible to you? I'm not saying it's not 264 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 2: possible that child support is a motive, but is it 265 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: likely for David? I kept stewing turning over the facts 266 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 2: as I knew them, and the questions which seemed to 267 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: keep multiplying, and admittedly I became obsessed. One reason is 268 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 2: that I'm a journalist and this seems to be a 269 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 2: juicy story, but I'm also an advocate. When I see 270 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 2: it wrong, I will fight to make it right by 271 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 2: digging and reporting to expose the truth. It makes me 272 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,959 Speaker 2: angry and I can't let it go. I found David's 273 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 2: case when I was researching for a Wrongful Conviction podcast. 274 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 2: I became interested in wrongful convictions after I reported on 275 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 2: Suave Gonzales, a juvenile who was sentenced to mandatory life 276 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 2: in prison for a homicide. After that, I started looking 277 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 2: into compelling stories of people who claim to be innocent 278 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 2: and needed help getting a second look, and David was 279 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 2: one one of many. The Innocence Project estimate it's that 280 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 2: anywhere from two to ten percent of incarcerated people in 281 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 2: the US may be factually innocent, which means tens or 282 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 2: even hundreds of thousands of individuals are doing time for 283 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 2: someone else. And I thought maybe David was, and if 284 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: he was, the world needs to know, and are wrong 285 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 2: needs to be made right. But I felt out of 286 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 2: my depth doing it alone, and then an opportunity arose. 287 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: What makes you want to continue doing this work? Literally 288 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 2: immediately upon getting out. 289 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, you know, I've always been a ballum. 290 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 2: I flew down to Austin, Texas for Wrongful Conviction Day. 291 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 2: I was meeting with Jason Baldwin from the West Memphis Three. 292 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 2: Jason's case is one of the most notorious wrongful convictions 293 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 2: in the country, grabbing the attention of celebrities, activists, and 294 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 2: lawyers since three little boys were found murdered in Arkansas 295 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety three. 296 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 3: They were convicted of murdering three boy scouts, hogtied and 297 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 3: left in a ditch a Satanic cult. Today, the West 298 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 3: Memphis Three walked free. 299 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 2: Jason and I did a Facebook live together for Wrongful 300 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 2: Conviction Day to bring attention to the issue of wrongful convictions. 301 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 2: Oh and then people could see coming. Okay really tail Okay, 302 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 2: hello everyone, we are live. 303 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 9: I am here Maggie Freeling in Austin, and I am 304 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 9: with Jason Baldon of the West Memphis Three, who was 305 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 9: convicted in nineteen ninety four release in twenty eleven. 306 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: He is also the co founder Jason now has his 307 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 2: own organization helping to free the wrongfully convicted. He co 308 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 2: founded Proclaimed Justice with his friend and private investigator John hardin. 309 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 3: Shall I keep chewing while you're recording? Really? 310 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 2: They notably helped exonerate Daniel Viegis in twenty eighteen. He'd 311 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 2: been wrongfully convicted of a double homicide when he was sixteen. 312 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 8: Verdict forim b leave the Jersey finally defended Daniel viegas 313 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 8: not guilty of friend. 314 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 2: Knew at investigating wrongful convictions. I was excited to sit 315 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: down and meet with them to see the work they're doing, 316 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 2: the care and doggedness and the passion they have while 317 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 2: doing it. I saw that when we talked about a 318 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 2: few cases they were investigating. 319 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 3: Yeah that works. Let me go get a laptop. 320 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 2: You're going to say you need document? Yeah I need Yeah, 321 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 2: Like wow, you were very have it all together. We 322 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 2: went over Nicki Zinger and Daniel Rischer's case. 323 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 5: We span of a. 324 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 9: Month, a murderer took her mother away, and then the 325 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 9: state took. 326 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 2: Her love away. Andres Muscaro, there's. 327 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 3: Only two possibilities here. Either somebody is feeding him all 328 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 3: of those details, or he was there. 329 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 2: And Marco Wilson, Well, we. 330 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 3: Have gunshot residue on the victim's jacket, So how do 331 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 3: you get gunshot residue when when you're shooting from that 332 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 3: far and there. 333 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 2: Are We went through files and they talked me through 334 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 2: the details of each case, and the days in Austin 335 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 2: weren't just work. I got to know the guys pretty well. 336 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 9: My brothers Matt and Terry like had me and my 337 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 9: mom stand back to back with our so we could 338 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 9: see who was taller on my sixteenth birthday and they're like, oh, Mom, 339 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 9: Jason's almost as tall as you now, you know, and 340 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 9: you know, just having that family time and then got arrested, 341 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 9: you know, a couple months later. 342 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 2: One of the things you fundamentally need to know about 343 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 2: wrongful convictions. It's easy to put someone in and nearly 344 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 2: impossible to get someone out. Convictions are designed and intended 345 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 2: to be final. One of the only ways convictions get 346 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 2: overturned is when someone finally digs deep and does the 347 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 2: investigation that was probably never done in the first place. 348 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,479 Speaker 2: Every day of that trip, I kept thinking, is there 349 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 2: an appropriate time to bring up this case to them. 350 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 2: I didn't want to be that person who unsolicitly asks 351 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 2: these busy and in demand guys with a wait list 352 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 2: of cases for a favor. But this wasn't just a favor. 353 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 2: It's someone's life, a man who has spent twenty two 354 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 2: years in prison and says he didn't do it. And 355 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 2: if that's true, I can't look away. And so one evening, John, 356 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 2: Jason and I were having after work drinks and I 357 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 2: broached the topic, you know, there's this really crazy case 358 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 2: I'm looking into. Y'all might be interested. We talked a 359 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 2: little and I told them that the most heartbreaking part 360 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 2: is it's been almost twenty two years, and David said 361 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 2: his case is dead in the water. They seemed interested, 362 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 2: but I didn't want to push it. Maybe they were 363 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: just being nice to their out of town guest. I 364 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: left Austin, went back to New York and we stayed 365 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 2: in touch. All right, Well, I got to run, and 366 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 2: you send me the overview of witnesses. Awesome, Thank you, John. 367 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: I'll talk to you all right. I don't know when 368 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 2: or how, but at some point I must have said 369 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 2: to John, look, I think you guys should look at 370 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 2: the files. I wanted to know if he would see 371 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 2: what I saw a total mess of an investigation and 372 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 2: a potential wrong doing. David Thorns was a good case, 373 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 2: at least to me. So I sent over the thousands 374 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: of pages of case file documents and then I waited, 375 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: waited for them to have a moment in their busy 376 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 2: days working dozens of other cases to review David's file. 377 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 2: And two months later they. 378 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 3: Called magg you missed America. 379 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 7: Hello, Hi. 380 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 2: John brought on another private investigator from Proclaimed Justice to 381 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 2: help Danny Waxler. Oh, it's sunny, it's sunny down there. 382 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 10: Yeah, spicy out there. 383 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 6: Wow, y'all come down, y'all come on like me. 384 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 2: On the surface, they were into it, but they don't 385 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 2: just take a case. They have to investigate it first 386 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,479 Speaker 2: and make sure it's a true innocence claim. They need 387 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 2: to confirm for themselves that David was indeed telling the 388 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 2: truth and the case had a leg to stand on 389 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 2: in court. And if David was innocent, then who did 390 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 2: kill Yvonne Lane? That was part of the puzzle, a 391 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 2: key part, and getting an answer would prove to be 392 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 2: a challenge. Remember, even if there was forensics at the 393 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 2: messy crime scene that weren't compromised and could be tested, 394 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 2: that wouldn't exonerate David. By all accounts, David was not 395 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 2: at the crime scene. It was an alleged murder for Higher, 396 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 2: so it doesn't matter if his prints aren't there. Getting 397 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 2: David back in court would come down to Joe proving 398 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 2: that Joe was either lying when he claimed that David 399 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 2: paid him to kill yvon or proving that Joe didn't 400 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 2: kill yvon The more. 401 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 10: We can dismantle Joseph for Joe, whatever he goes by, 402 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 10: the stronger plight we have, and if. 403 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 2: Joe didn't commit the murder, then the prosecution's whole case 404 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 2: falls apart, of course, Joe said he did it, but 405 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 2: Joe has said a lot of things over the years. 406 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: Joe has given multiple versions of what happened. In one story, 407 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 2: David hires Joe to kill yvon In another, Joe shows 408 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 2: up at Yvonne's house and she's already dead. And in 409 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 2: two thousand and one, just a year after conviction, Joe 410 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 2: even recanted his hitman for Higher confession and said he 411 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 2: was pressured by police and coached what to say to 412 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 2: implicate David. 413 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 7: Scared and confused, Wilkes says this former detective forced him 414 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 7: to confess Wilkes was a friend of David Thorns, and. 415 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 2: They had told me a general story about how to put. 416 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 3: David in it. 417 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 10: Maggie, did you reach out to Joe? 418 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 2: I did not, because I also I just didn't want 419 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 2: to really tamper with anything. I did not reach out 420 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: to him. Now, let me clarify that I did not 421 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 2: reach out to Joe because I did not want to 422 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 2: engage in any kind of perceived witness tampering because in 423 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 2: my mind, the case wasn't dead in the water. It 424 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 2: could go back to court, and I didn't want to 425 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 2: mess anything up. And I'm glad I didn't because it 426 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 2: seems like Joe really is the key to the entire story. 427 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 10: You know, I'd like David to tell us if he 428 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 10: was our newest investigator, how would he approach this. It's 429 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 10: always good to hear from our clients on what their 430 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 10: own thoughts are, how they would proceed with about what 431 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 10: we're about to launch ourselves into. 432 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 2: David was on this planning call too. 433 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 5: I mean, the thing that comes to the forefront of 434 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 5: mine is Joe's timeline. 435 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 2: Different accounts and witnesses put Joe at multiple places that night, 436 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 2: So which version of the story is true. John and 437 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 2: Danny were ready to go to Ohio and find out 438 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 2: And then I had an idea. I suggested that I 439 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 2: document their investigation in real time. I wanted to see 440 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 2: how it was done, step by step, interview by interview, 441 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 2: as we try to put the pieces together. And they 442 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,719 Speaker 2: agreed we were all going to hit the ground in Ohio. 443 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 3: Okay, well, let's well, like I said, we'll stay in 444 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 3: touch is needed and as things come into focus as 445 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 3: far as what we want to get accomplished there and 446 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 3: time frame and all that stuff. But we will plan 447 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 3: on being there two weeks from today, guys. 448 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 10: Okay, we'll regroup and be back in touch. 449 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 2: All right, Okay, by guys, Good to see you too. 450 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 2: In two weeks, we'd be an alliance Ohio, starting the 451 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 2: investigation into Yvonne's murder from scratch, exactly what David said 452 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 2: he needed to move his case forward. What would we find? 453 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 2: There were so many questions. Danny and John poured through 454 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 2: case files trying to figure out where to start. They 455 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 2: sent me a recording of their discussion, and I want 456 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:51,959 Speaker 2: you to hear it. I want you to hear how 457 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 2: they approach the case. What stood out to them right away, 458 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: you know. 459 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 10: And taking this case, I think one of the first 460 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 10: things we always have to do is say, what do 461 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 10: we believe was the most significant part of what convicted 462 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 10: our clients? 463 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and we know, just even if it's. 464 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 10: Just preliminary research, we know it was the statement of 465 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 10: Jose Wilks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's not like there's 466 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 10: an abundant there's no biological evidence, you. 467 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 3: Know, right off the bat. A couple of things that 468 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 3: raise my eyebrows are the knife in the pants, how 469 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 3: did Joe lead them to the circumstances? And if it 470 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 3: was the murder weapon and Joe did lead them there, 471 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 3: then that's a big fucking deal, you know, just on 472 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 3: its face, that's one that I'm going to have to 473 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 3: have a satisfactory answer to you. How did Joe take 474 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 3: them to that knife? That's a hell of a thing 475 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 3: right there. Joe's got some explaining to do. 476 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 6: This is all originating from an Ohio correctional institution and 477 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 6: maybe recorded or. 478 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 7: Monitored what was with the knife, though, Joe, I don't. 479 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 6: Know why I was my clothes gone it? Why was 480 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 6: I'm so worried about this? 481 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't know. Coming up on death and deceit 482 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 2: in alliance. 483 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 8: About she actually cheated on him a couple of times. 484 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 7: In terms of the police force, my god, I had 485 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 7: eight or nine names of officers who were potential sexual 486 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 7: partners because she was murdered. 487 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 9: And I, I mean, you could have just knocked me over. 488 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 7: Any number of people could have been a suspect. 489 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 4: He was seen by a neighbor standing at her front 490 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 4: door at five point thirty at a time of death 491 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 4: of seven, where he said that they put in a 492 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 4: room and they changed him to the wall by his 493 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 4: arm and fit on him, and they told him that 494 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 4: they wanted him to confess. 495 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 7: The guy I knew they came into the post office 496 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 7: that threw up his. 497 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 4: Hand away and grinned all the time, and he's just 498 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 4: the nicest guy ever. I thought, no, this can't be. 499 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 7: Bret Turvey, a nationally no criminal forensics expert, picked apart 500 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 7: what he calls a botched case. 501 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: I'm curious, why is you know so many guys you 502 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 2: never asked about that. I wondered about him. 503 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 10: The officers were involved in the various activity and criminal activity. 504 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 10: The fact that it was never turned over to the 505 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 10: defense is shocking. 506 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 7: The police controlled the narrative. 507 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 8: I cannot get to the truth. 508 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 5: Did you know who he identified? 509 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 3: No? 510 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 6: I don't. 511 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 7: There's a police officer. 512 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 6: It's like, no, something's missing here and what did the 513 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 6: prosecution turn this over on? 514 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 2: What is going on here? 515 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 3: So it makes me feel like there's more to the story. 516 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 6: And although you thought that the evidence proved it, I 517 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 6: know in my heart and saw I did not do this. 518 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 2: Death and deceit In Alliance is produced and reported by 519 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 2: me Maggie Freeling, with editorial consulting from Amber Hunt. Aaron 520 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 2: Case is our legal researcher. Our executive producer is Steve Fishman. 521 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 2: Our engineer and production coordinator is Austin Smith. Eric Axelrod 522 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 2: is our assistant producer.