1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:05,519 Speaker 1: Welcome back to week two of the Behind the Bastards 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: m k Ultra episodes. I'm Robert Evans. I am the 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: normal host of this show unless you're part of a 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: CI A mind controlled experiment that has deep patterned you 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: and cause you to forget the real host of this show. Um, 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: but that probably hasn't happened. Uh. And to explain why 7 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: that probably hasn't happened, here's our guest, Jason Pargeon. Hello. 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: For those of you did not listen to parts one two, 9 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: I am frequent podcast hosts and author Jason Pargean needs 10 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: to be Evans boss. Back in the crack dot com days, 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: where I was executive editor for thirteen years from two 12 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: thousand seven till to till two thousand and twenty, during 13 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: what I like to think of as the glory years. 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: Maybe other people think those were the bad years and 15 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: that it was fine before and after that. Jason, I 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: would think anyone who disagrees with you on that point 17 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: has probably had their minds destroyed by the sea had 18 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: ad a like BuzzFeed. Uh. Yeah, but I have a 19 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: novel and it's called If this book exists, You're in 20 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: the wrong universe. That is coming out right around the 21 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,199 Speaker 1: time you're listening to this. Uh anywhere books are sold 22 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: in any format e book, audiobook. It is one of 23 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: the John Dies at the End books. If you know 24 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: what that means, you are very excited. If not, then 25 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: that was just a nonsense string of words that I 26 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: just said. There there there's a somewhat famous book and 27 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: movie called John Dies at the End of the movie. 28 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: You can find on streaming. But it is a New 29 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: York Times best selling book series, and this is this 30 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: book is one of them. If you've not read any 31 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: of them, you can start in this one if you 32 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: want it is That would be a very expensive way 33 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: to start a series, considering the other ones are probably 34 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: like on Kendall at this point. Um, but by all means, 35 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: please by by the thirty dollar hardcover. I that that 36 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: will be good for me if you do that. Yeah, 37 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: um by his book. Yeah, it's worth it. It's like 38 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: it's like taking a little bit of LSD and then 39 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: not having the CIA electro shock you until your brain 40 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: gets depatterned. It's like the good parts of that experience. 41 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: It's like it's like what Sydney got Leaves doing, as 42 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 1: opposed to what got leaves doing to everyone else. Um, yeah, exactly. Um, 43 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: it's fun. You know, there's a there's one of the 44 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: things that you can do if you want to have 45 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: a good time is you can find old uh CIA 46 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: reports about their drug trips. Um. I'm looking at one 47 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: from nineteen three right now where they're talking about like 48 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 1: the Gateway experience and like the kind of basically they're 49 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: talking about like, hey, is it possible that we're communicating 50 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: with aliens while we're all doing drugs? Um, And kind 51 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: of the conclusion is that it's scary and they don't know, 52 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: because again, these are, to be fair, these are the 53 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: kind of thing things that happened to you when you're 54 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: on drugs. It's like did I just talk to some 55 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: sort of like being from outside of you know, time 56 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: and space? Um, And it's it is I don't know, 57 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: comforting is the wrong word, but it's funny to note 58 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: that the CIA has had the same experiences. Okay, and 59 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: I have to maybe this is a spoiler for the 60 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: remaining episode or episodes in this in this series, but 61 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: between now, from the beginning to the end of this, 62 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: like obviously they did record a ton of data. They 63 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: did do a ton of what they're calling experiments. Did 64 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: they learn anything useful that wasn't learned elsewhere or that 65 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: other people didn't already know? Was there any good that 66 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: came from this? No? Uh. In short, Jason, I mean 67 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: the the good that comes from it. To the extent 68 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: that good comes from it, is that l s D 69 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: gets out and becomes incredibly popular among the generation of 70 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: musicians and artists and philosophers and thinkers. And it gets 71 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: out largely because of guys who are working with Most 72 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: of the people who read LSD into the actual like 73 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: the civilian populace in a way that's not horribly abusive, 74 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: are also these guys who are like contracting their their doctors, 75 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: you know, they're they're they're psychiatrists who have practices. They're 76 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: working with the CIA for extra money. And part of 77 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: that is that they're drugging people in nightmare experiments. But 78 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: also they have free acid, and so they take it 79 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: and they give it to their friends, some of whom 80 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: wind up writing very influential books and becoming like these 81 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: members of the of the sixties, like that that generation 82 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: of you know, people who tune in and drop out, 83 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: so we get a lot of cool music from that 84 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: period of time. Um, there's a lot of of interesting 85 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: thinkers who are influenced by the experiences they have on 86 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: ASCID and a lot of that is positive. And I 87 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: guess you could say that came inadvertently through as a 88 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: result of MK Ultra. That's not what they were trying 89 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: to do, and it was not because they were drugging 90 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,679 Speaker 1: people and then those people wrote great albums. It's more that, like, well, 91 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: we were giving out acid for free to the same 92 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: guys who were torturing people, and some of them gave 93 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: that acid to people who then gave it to people 94 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: who wound up writing pretty pretty rad albums who became 95 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,919 Speaker 1: Jerry Garcia. You know, it certainly was not anything to 96 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: do with what they intended. In fact, I assumed that 97 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: the Cia very much did not like the cultural pivot 98 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: that occurred in the nine six. I think Gottlieb was 99 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: probably cool with it because he is kind of a hippie. 100 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: But yeah, most of these guys would we're we're we're 101 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: horrified by what was happening. Um, we'll be talking about 102 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: that when we get to the Charles Manson portions of 103 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: these episodes. Jason um so as we kind of left 104 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 1: off here, you know, we talked about dr you and 105 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: Cameron over in Canada de patterning people all of this 106 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: nightmare work. While Cameron is doing this horrible ship, Sidney 107 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: Gottlieb and his friends are continuing to go buck fucking 108 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: wild with their own personal LSD experiments. Conscientious guided trips 109 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: and consensual random dosings had given away to a culture 110 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: of surprise acid trips for anybody who happened to be 111 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: near scientists from the mk Ultra program. At the end 112 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: of nineteen fifty four, the problem had gotten so bad 113 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: that the CIA's Office of Security sent out a memo 114 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: to all of the agents at the CIA, warning that 115 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: certain officers were testing LSD on their colleagues and that 116 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: it could quote produce serious insanity for periods of eight 117 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: to eighteen hours and possibly longer. Due to the risk 118 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: of being drugged. They recommended employees not drink from the 119 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: punch bowl at the upcoming Christmas party, Like that's a 120 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: that's a memo you get at the CIA. Don't drink 121 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: from the punch this year. Somebody's probably gonna put acid 122 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 1: at it, Like can you deliver ascid that way? And 123 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: oh absolutely, I had no idea. You can put it 124 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: in any liquid. Yeah, yeah, you don't notice that it 125 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: doesn't really have a flavor. So a lot of people 126 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: like sticking orange use apparently like potentiates some of the effects, 127 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: So people take it into o J a lot. If 128 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: you're just getting it liquid, most people get it as 129 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: like it's like a little piece of paper that has 130 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: has had a drop on it or something, and they 131 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: take it that way. But you know, all of the 132 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: information you would need if you were really doing this 133 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: as an experiment about in terms of like what are 134 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: what other medications are these people on? What else do 135 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: they have that could be counteracting it or could be 136 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: you know, let me interact with it, you know, or 137 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: any of these people, you know, how many of them 138 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: been drinking alcohol, What's what's the what's the you know, 139 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: the average weight? Or do they have pre existing conditions, 140 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: do they have pre existing mental health problems? And all 141 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: the things you would be like if you're going to 142 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: do a study today to see like what theyre if 143 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: they somehow allowed you to test, Like we're going to 144 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: do somebody's food around them. They don't know what it's coming. 145 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: We're going to study the response there's a battery of 146 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: data you would need on that person to know what 147 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: you were looking at in their response and why it 148 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: was different from individual to individual. Right, And it sounds 149 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: like they were doing any of this. It was so 150 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: sloppy and unscientific. Yeah, what is the scientific value of 151 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: putting LSD in a punch bowl and seeing what happens 152 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: at a work party? Like, how do you actually turn 153 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: that into into usable data? Because you're you're not if 154 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: you're just having fun. If it turned into an orgy, 155 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: or if it turned into a riot, or if it 156 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: turned into nothing, that doesn't mean anything unless you know 157 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: all of the other complicating factors, like the mood. Was 158 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: it something that was gonna happen anyway? Is that unique 159 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: the people of this particular age or the particular mindset 160 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: that work in this agency, Like you don't have any 161 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: of the information that you would need to know. Okay, 162 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: this same thing will happen if we try this in Moscow, 163 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: you know, at a party there. You know we're trying 164 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: to destabilize their government. Like that tells you nothing. No, 165 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: it's completely it's completely useless from a scientific standpoint. And 166 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: I think, honestly, I'm sure Sidney would have had an excuse. 167 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: But he's not doing this for science. You're you're not 168 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: some of this he's probably doing for he believes he's 169 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: doing for science. But you're not dosing the punch bowl 170 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: at the CIA Christmas party for science. You're doing it 171 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: because it's fun, Like because you think it's funny, right, Like, 172 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: that's why this is happening. Um, And yeah, it's it's 173 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: it's pretty pretty cool that this, this is just this. 174 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: We've just this man has been set loose. He's been 175 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: given a massive portion of the CIA's budget during the 176 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: period of time in which the CIA is the most 177 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: powerful it will ever be, and no one can tell 178 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: him no. So he's just doing whatever the funk he wants. Um. Now, 179 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: Sydney seems to handle this pretty well, the stress of 180 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: managing this like international drugging and torturing ring. Some of 181 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: his colleagues, though, are more haunted by what the CIA 182 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: was doing than their boss. One of these men was 183 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: Frank Olsen, who he mentioned a little earlier. He's a U. S. 184 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: Army biochemist and a biological weapons researcher. Um. One of 185 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: the first things that like Olsen will do in this 186 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: project is he sits in at these black sites when 187 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: they're torturing prisoners to death with LSD and mescalin and 188 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: he takes notes, right, like, that's one of his early 189 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: jobs and what becomes m k Ultra. Now, according to 190 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: reports from other men in the program, Olsen gets On 191 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: is not happy with this. He doesn't feel good about 192 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: doing this job, like sitting in the chair and watching 193 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: people go mad and then be executed, kind of like 194 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: fux him up a little bit. Um, he's like the 195 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: most human person at the CIA. We're going to hear 196 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: from right now? I guess so. And and again all 197 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: of this is debated. There are some people say, no, 198 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: that's not what it was. He didn't have an issue 199 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: with what we were doing. Was something else. But according 200 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: to the people who say that he had an ethical 201 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: issue with like what they were doing, they say that 202 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: he spoke up about it and he started to talk 203 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 1: about quitting the agency. Um. And this starts to cause 204 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: like a lot of talk the higher levels of the 205 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: CIA of like what are we gonna do about Frank Olson? Right, 206 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: His doubts are supercharged when in May of nineteen fifty 207 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: three he goes to Britain they're doing another series of 208 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: like tests on chemical weapons. And he's not just the 209 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: acid guy. He's got like you know, he's he's a 210 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: he's a biological weapon specialist. And he watches a servant, 211 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: a Sarah nerve gas test go wrong um and a 212 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: twenty year old volunteer soldier dies an agonizing death as 213 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: a result of it. And this is at least what 214 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: Kinser kind of right, Stephen Kinzer kind of says, this 215 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: is the inciting incident that gets Olsen to decide he's 216 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: actually going to leave the agency Kinser rights quote. A 217 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: month later, Olson was back in Germany. While he was there, 218 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: according to records that were later declassified, a suspected Soviet 219 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: agent code named Patient number two was subjected to an 220 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: intense interrogation somewhere near Frankfurt. On that same trip, according 221 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: to a later reconstruction of his travels, Olsen visited a 222 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: CIA safe house near Stuttgart where he saw men dying, 223 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: often in agony, from the weapons that he had made. 224 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: After stops in Scandinavia and Paris, he went to Britain 225 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: and visited Williams sergeant for a second time. Immediately after 226 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: their meeting, Sergeant wrote a report saying that Olsen was 227 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: deeply disturbed over what he had seen in c i 228 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: A safe houses in Germany and displayed symptoms of not 229 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: wanting to keep secret what he had witnessed. He sent 230 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: his report to superiors with the understanding that they would 231 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: award it to the CIA, and Sergeant is like a 232 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: British kind of liaison. So you see what's kind of 233 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 1: happening here. This is at least the way that kind 234 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: of Kinzer depicts it. You've got this scientist who is 235 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: traveling around the world, watching these weapons he's helping to develop, 236 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: kill people, watching people be tortured, watching that people have 237 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: weapons tested on them, and it just starts to break him. Um. 238 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: There is evidence that Frank had already started to talk 239 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: about some of his top secred research with one of 240 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: his friends, who later claimed in an interview quote he said, 241 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 1: norm you would be stunned by the techniques that they used. 242 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: They made people talk, they brainwashed people, They used all 243 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: kinds of drugs, they used all kinds of torture. They 244 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 1: were using Nazis, they were using prisoners, they were using Russians, 245 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: and they didn't care whether whether they got out of 246 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: that or not. Um So, he talks about this to 247 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: an extent and out about that Lettani right there is 248 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: that the only part that's not true is that it worked. Yeah, 249 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: because he lists like, well, they're usually Nazis, they're killing people, 250 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: are doing this, they're doing that, and they're they're they've 251 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: got ways to get truth out of people. It's like, 252 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: we'll see, that's the thing. That's the one thing they did. 253 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: That's the one that ye know, the part where you 254 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: thought it was actually effective at accomplishing something for the 255 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: cause is where you were wrong. All the rest of 256 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: it was true, the Nazis, all of that, Yeah, it's um. 257 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: So this guy has friend Norm claims that like he 258 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: basically bears his guts to him, says, like, you know, 259 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: I watched them torture people to death. They're doing all 260 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: these horrible things, carrying out this nightmare research, and I 261 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: can't take it anymore. I'm going to leave um And 262 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: Norm says that Frank Olsen tells him I'm getting out 263 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: of the c I a period. So near the end 264 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: of nineteen fifty three, not long after this conversation, Frank 265 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: is invited to a work retreat with several other CIA men, 266 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: including Gottlieb's deputy and Sydney Gottlieb. After the dinner, all 267 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 1: of the men are dosed without their consent with L S. D. 268 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: We don't know how much they're given, UM because as 269 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: far as we can tell, nobody's taking notes about that 270 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: sort of thing on a regular basis. But Sydney reacts 271 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: badly to the huge dose of surprise acid he's given 272 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: after like watching a bunch of men die horribly UM. 273 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: And days later he still has not recovered. So he 274 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: gets taken away by several colleagues to New York City 275 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: to speak with a psychiatrist who was friendly with the agency. 276 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: It's Abramson, I believe, the guy who gave Um Gottlieb 277 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: his first dose. And during that trip, while he's in 278 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: the hotel room with like a colleague, Frank jumps from 279 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: an eleven story or ten story window, out of the 280 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: window and dies on impact. Um. That is the official 281 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: report that while he's in this hotel room with another 282 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: CIA agent, he jumps of his own accord out of 283 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: the window and he dies on impact. Now, are you 284 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: do you think anybody's gonna doubt the official narrative on 285 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: this one? Jason. Yeah, the people who know even a 286 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: little bit about him caultre the moment this guy came 287 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: into the story, they knew this is the famous This 288 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: is one of the figures along with God, Like, this 289 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: is one of the figures that the people that are 290 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: kind of a cursory knowledge of NK culture like me, Yeah, 291 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: these are this is one of the guys that they 292 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: already knew because this is like what movies have been 293 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: made about this. Yeah. And for the record, when it 294 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: comes to like conspiracy theories, this is almost certainly like 295 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: a true one because like, so they exhume Frank Olsen's 296 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: body in nineteen and they find specific cranial injuries in 297 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: his remains that suggests that he was unconscious when he 298 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: started to fall. Now, it's not impossible that something else happened, 299 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: especially like if he was dosed with a drug or something. 300 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: But it's pretty likely he was murdered by the c 301 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: i A right, Like, that's that's not an unreasonable conclusion 302 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: to draw based on the extant evidence. Um, you know, 303 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: we don't know exactly what happened. It's also they have 304 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: earned the doubt, yeah, that people express here like I 305 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: I again, I'm very big on. I'm not in favor 306 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: of people who take the true things we know about 307 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: in culture and then try to expand them into very 308 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: weird fiction, because I think that discredits everything in this case. 309 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: You know, in the case of this man dying in 310 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: the way they said he did, it is not weird, 311 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: like them throwing him out of a window would be 312 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: the least weird part of the story. Yeah, it is 313 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: not at all out of line with the things these 314 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: people have shown themselves as willing to do morally. It 315 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: makes sense from a logical standpoint. Now, it's also possible 316 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: that like the CIA killed Frank Olsen, and they didn't 317 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: do it by having him thrown but instead like drugging 318 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: him at different points and kind of like breaking him 319 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: until he wound up killing himself. Um. Not out of 320 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: the question, but yeah, it seems like there's i mean, 321 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: based on sort of the exhumation and what gets found 322 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: when they when they do this, uh, the second autopsy, 323 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 1: it definitely seems like there's a pretty strong odds he 324 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: was just straight up murdered. Um. But we'll never know 325 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: precisely what happened um Frank Olsen's death. Whatever the exact 326 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: details of it was not quieted up. Obviously, this is 327 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: like the thing people tend to know about in k Ultra. 328 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: It's probably the single most famous moment of the entire program. Um, 329 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: even though it's not the most fucked Obviously, the fact 330 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: that they murdered a guy who had been helping them 331 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: torture people is not nearly the worst thing that happens 332 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: as a result of this um. But it's just such 333 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: a like Cold War story, right, This like mysterious suicide 334 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: of a CIA doctor, and I don't know, for whatever reason, 335 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: it's the thing that people latch onto. Um, this is controversial. 336 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: Whatever happens is like causes problems within the CIA. Frank 337 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: Olsen had been a prominent and a well liked member 338 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 1: of the team. The c i a's general counsel, Lawrence Houston, 339 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: starts to like dozen investigation. He spends two weeks investigating 340 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: the suicide. And Houston is the guy who wrote helped 341 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: write the law that created the CIA. It is again like, obviously, yeah, 342 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: the CIA is investigating itself. I wonder what they found, 343 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: but it is worth noting basically, no one knows exactly 344 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: what God leaves doing. He doesn't have to report to anyone, right. Um, 345 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: so it's not entirely unlikely that Houston learns a lot 346 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: of things that he had not known about him k 347 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 1: Ultra in the process of investigating this, whatever the reality there. 348 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: He summarizes his findings after this investigation. Thus, Lee, it 349 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: is my conclusion that the death of Dr Olsen is 350 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: the result of circumstances arising out of an experiment undertaken 351 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 1: in the course of his official duties for the U. S. Government, 352 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: and that there is therefore a direct causal connection between 353 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: that accident and his death. I am not happy with 354 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: what seems to me to be a very casual attitude 355 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: on the part of t SS representatives. That's the part 356 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: of the CIA that godly runs to the way experiment 357 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: was conducted, and to the remarks that this is just 358 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: one of the risks running with scientific experimentation. A death 359 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 1: occurred which might have been prevented, and the agency as 360 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: a whole, particularly the director, were caught completely by surprise 361 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: in a most embarrassing manner. So that's kind of the 362 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: the official sort of chastisement that Gottlieb gets over this. 363 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: It's um something else. I mean, I don't even have 364 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: there's I don't have a joke for that, because yeah, yeah, 365 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 1: what do you say, like he's he's writing about it 366 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: the way that it's like like you crash a company 367 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: car because like you're not paying enough attention or something 368 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: like there's such a bureaucratic problem. Um. I mean, and obviously, 369 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not surprised that the CIA's findings aren't 370 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: we murdered a guy, but like, yeah, it's just I 371 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: don't know, seeing it that way is is for whatever 372 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: reason like that, the kind of the contrast between the 373 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: way they write about all this in a very like 374 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,479 Speaker 1: almost corporate manner and what's actually going on is always 375 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: one of the more unsettling pieces of delving and n 376 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: MK ultra well and also truve basically every government sponsored 377 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: horror and history when you see the actual bureaucracy behind 378 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: it in the records they kept in it's all it's 379 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: all just memos And yeah, yep, well, Jason, you know 380 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: what who loves memos and corporate speak is our sponsors 381 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: who write stuff just like this, but not about murdering 382 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: their own team. So yeah, that's probably probably could have 383 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: been framed better. Let's just let's just rolled ads right 384 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: now before I say anything else, We're back. Ah, Jason, 385 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: act your head, Dode. This is like a just kind 386 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: of like a fucking um. I don't know getting all 387 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: of this at once. We're reading all of this in 388 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: a marathon session, so it's just sort of like hitting 389 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: like a like a series of bricks, um. And then 390 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: I'm pausing intermittently and being like, all right, Jason, time 391 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: to time to make a joke. Now was your joke, Jason? 392 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: The well, the to to kind of pull back here. 393 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: As a listener, I think most people came into this 394 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: with about the same amount of information about M k 395 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: Ultra as I had, and I think most people have 396 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 1: heard of it. They knew that it was a CIA 397 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: program that had something to do with mind control. They 398 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: knew that it's been in a million thrillers and spy movies. 399 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: That in any kind of movie that involved like Manchurion 400 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 1: candidates or mind control, anything like that, they will always mention, well, 401 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: this is all goes back to M k Ultra. So 402 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: the thing that I wanted to know coming into this 403 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: listening to you as a listener, and I think the 404 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 1: same thing they want to probably is at one point 405 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: is any of the most outlandish conspiracy stuff true, as in, 406 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: did they have even partial success creating a mansuring in Canada? 407 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: Did they have even partial success in trying to make 408 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: someone do something other than what they wanted to do, 409 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: not make someone piss their pants and vomit and control 410 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: will be? It was like, Wow, they didn't want to 411 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: do that. We need the thing that they once they 412 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: abandoned this as a truth serum, which again we also 413 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: know really doesn't exist. You can kind of get somebody 414 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: drunk and get them talking, but something that makes somebody 415 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: tell the truth is that's all not a real thing. Um. 416 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: So I think what people are kind of listening for 417 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: is like, was this all just people fooling themselves and 418 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: you know, creating horror stories and leaving a trail of 419 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 1: dead bodies behind them? Like, what's the weirdest thing they 420 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: actually accomplished? And I'm not trying to spoil the rest 421 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: of the EPISO so that we have coming up, but 422 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: I think we're trying to separate fact from fiction. What 423 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: I said earlier was that the fiction is assuming that 424 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: everything they wanted to do they actually did, the fact 425 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: is that everything they wanted to do was fantasy, and 426 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: what they actually did was they just ruined a bunch 427 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: of people's lives and accidentally started the psychedelic sixties movement. 428 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: What I will say is, if you're asking did they 429 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: succeed in implanting false memories and people into some extent, 430 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: the actual answer is we don't know, and we're will 431 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: be getting to them. Maybe they're kind of later on, 432 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: but certainly there is no evidence of success. Right. There 433 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: is no hard evidence during this period at all of 434 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: anything actually working. Um. And there's never been any evidence 435 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: that they actually Manachurian candidated someone and got them to 436 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: do spy ship like that. That has never happened as 437 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 1: far as we know. There is some evidence that they 438 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: get further on this than is entirely set link to 439 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: think about, and we will be chatting about that in 440 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: a bit. But UM, as regards Frank Olsen, this guy 441 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: who has been probably murdered, there's more investigations. UM. In 442 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: the end, Alan Dullis is forced to write a letter 443 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: to Gottlieb and tell him that he'd exercised poor judgment. 444 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: That is the extent of the actual discipline that Gotlieb 445 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 1: faces so by the mid nineteen fifties. After this has happened, 446 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: there are no longer any barriers at all as to 447 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: what Sydney can do. For a time after he's, you know, 448 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: given this massive budget and put in charge of this thing, 449 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,959 Speaker 1: he is constrained by the fact that only Sandas Chemical 450 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: makes l s d um. The Agency had bought out 451 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: the entire world supply, but that was just tens of 452 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: thousands of doses. Jason Um Sydney wanted a hell of 453 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 1: a lot more, and as nineteen fifty four ended, Eli 454 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,959 Speaker 1: Lily figures out the recipe and the CIA becomes their 455 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: primary customer, paying four thousand dollars for probably millions of 456 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: doses of lsd um. This is effectively an off of 457 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: the drug that they could now dose anyone and everyone, 458 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: which is what they proceed to do. The man Gottlieb 459 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: picked to run this program is a cool dude named 460 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: George White. George White is the platonic ideal basically of 461 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: a hard boiled, corrupt g man. He had worked as 462 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: a captain for the OSS during World War Two, and 463 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: then he was an Narcotics Bureau agent that's the precursor 464 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: to the d e A. So he's a fed he's 465 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: supposed to be fighting drug trafficking. He is famous among 466 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: his fellow FEDS for being heavily addicted to basically every 467 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: drug imaginable. And he is he is stealing everything from 468 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: the dealers he arrest, and he's doing them right. Um, 469 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: he like and he this is a thing that he's like, 470 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: he has more experience with this than Gottlieb. In nineteen 471 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: forty three, he's giving concentrated marijuana to New York mobsters 472 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: as part of a truth serum test um. Like, so, 473 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: George White is the guy that like, hey, we need 474 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: someone to secretly dose mobsters with pot to see if 475 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 1: it makes them tell the truth? Do you know any 476 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: mobsters who you can you can rug? George White doesn't 477 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: even think before he's like, oh yeah, absolutely, yeah, I 478 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: can do that in a minute. Like let's go, let's 479 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: just give me some fucking weed. I got that, I 480 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 1: got this. Yeah. Um. He is actually a really fun character. Um. 481 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: He's a terrible person, but just entertaining. So, starting in 482 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 1: the early fifties, the CIA has White run two safe 483 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 1: houses for LSD testing in Greenwich Village in New York City. 484 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: The men that he tested CIA drugs on were considered 485 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: quote expendable because they were drug addicts and otherwise marginalized people, 486 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: and they wouldn't be missed if they died or went insane. 487 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: And if they go to like if they find out 488 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: what's happening to them and they go to the cops 489 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 1: and are like, the CIA has dosed me with LSD, Well, 490 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: the cops are not going to to follow up that investigation, right. Um, 491 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: that's part of the genius. Afically confused here this man 492 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: they put in charge of these experiments, what what was 493 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: his background? His scientific background. He's a FED. He's a 494 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: he's a he's he's a federal agent. Um. He's he's 495 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: a federal agent whose specialty is that he looks and 496 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: sounds exactly like a mobster. So he's really good at 497 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: hanging out with drug dealers and doing drugs with them. Okay, 498 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: but does not have a background in like biochemistry or 499 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: science or the guy whose day job is stealing heroin 500 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: from drug dealers and then doing that heroin does not 501 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: have a medical degree. Yeah he is. He has no 502 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: kind of scientists. Um. So one of the reasons why 503 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: he gets this job is that, like because Gottlieb when 504 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: he's looking for a guy. He goes to the Bureau 505 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: of Narcotics and he's like, Hey, I'm looking for someone 506 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: to like help run this program where we're going to 507 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: be giving LSD to unsuspecting people, um, and they advise 508 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 1: George White, And when he meets White, Gottlieb kind of 509 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: falls in love with him. All of the c I 510 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 1: So again, the people running this for the Technical Division 511 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: are all big nerds, right, Gottlieb and his fellow scientists 512 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: that these academics they mostly grown up middle class. White 513 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: is like the kind of character you read about in 514 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 1: a pulp fiction novel. You know, he's always gotten multiple 515 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: weapons on him. He's got like several guns at any 516 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: given time, brass knuckles, knives. He talks luridly about all 517 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: these shootouts and fights he's been in, and he's like, 518 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: he's this hard character who's been like fucking in the streets, 519 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: fight like doing horrible cop ships since the twenties. So 520 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: they they treat him like he's like they've run into 521 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: Dick Tracy, right, Like they they kind of are are 522 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: spell bound by him, and that's part of why he 523 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: gets this job, right. He takes them on right, along, 524 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: so show them as guns and talk about this stuff, 525 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: and they're just like, I think he's really good at 526 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: manipulating the CIA doctors actually, and that's part of why 527 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: this works for him. Um So, initially when they first 528 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: start setting up these safe houses to drug men, George 529 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: White is going to be the actual guy who draws 530 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: them in like for testing. Who's the lure? And I'm 531 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: gonna quote now from Poisoner in Chief. He posed alternatingly 532 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: as a merchant, seaman or a bohemian artist and consorted 533 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: with a vast array of underworld characters, all of whom 534 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: were involve of in vice, including drugs, prostitution, gambling, in pornography. 535 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: It was under this assumed bohemian artist persona that White 536 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: wooden trap most of his MK Ultra victims. White regularly 537 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: dosed women at parties or who he just encountered in 538 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: the world, leaving vague notes in his diary like Gloria 539 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: gets Horror, janets sky high um. At one point, one 540 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: of his victims escapes and she makes it to Lennox 541 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: Hill Hospital, where she reports George White for drugging her 542 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: against her will. But the CIA had an arrangement with 543 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: the Medical Department of the NYPD. So the NYPD tells 544 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: this woman she's mistaken, nothing has happened to her, and 545 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: she's sent home. And again, easy for us to look 546 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: back and criticize now, but at the time, there was 547 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: no way to know that this that this could have happened. Well, 548 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: the I mean the the NYPD guys know, we have 549 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: been told by our contacts, the FEDS not to pursue this, right, like, 550 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: to calm this woman down and send her away. Right, 551 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: So there is some degree that the PD that doesn't 552 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: know the CIA is running like an acid warehouse, right 553 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: and like drugging people. They just know the CIA said, hey, 554 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: don't do anything with this case. Um, and this is 555 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: a thing that's going to happen a lot, right like 556 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: and this is also I have to say, this is 557 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: not like. This is the way things work sometimes with 558 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: like the FBI and cops. Right, Sometimes the cops will 559 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: arrest a guy like with contraband or something with drugs, 560 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: and it'll turn out he's an FBI informant, and so 561 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: the cops will release him because the FBI is like, hey, 562 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: we don't want to don't blow this up for us, right, 563 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: we need this guy. That is. You can think what 564 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: you want about law enforcement, but that's like a thing 565 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: that happens. The CIA is not a domestic agency. They 566 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: are not supposed to be working on American soil. At 567 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: no point is what they're doing in the United States legal. Um, 568 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: this is not a thing where it's normal and like 569 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: within legal limits for the CIA to like have a 570 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: secret program set up where they work with the NYPD 571 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: to like get their assets let go, that's not supposed 572 00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: to be happening. So I do want to note here 573 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: it's kind of minor, like to be like when the 574 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: CIA was breaking the law by working on American soil, 575 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: when they're what they're doing is so much crazier. But 576 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: like they're not supposed to be working in the United 577 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: States at all. Yeah, if we didn't, if we hadn't 578 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: previously made that clear. Yeah, this is on top of 579 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: being insane, what they're doing is at this point extremely illegal. 580 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: In fact, they run into conflict with the FBI a 581 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: bunch because the FBI is like, you guys are running 582 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: a drug house and like you're the c I and this. 583 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: You know, the FBI and the c I are always 584 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: competing for money, so they're not super friendly with each other, 585 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: and they're like, what the funk is going on here? Like, 586 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: why are you guys allowed to do this? This isn't 587 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: we're supposed to be fucking with people here, you know. 588 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: Um So, George White is very good at his job, 589 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: to the extent that his job is to drug random people. 590 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: He does it a lot, but the CIA is hunger 591 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: for test subjects could not be sated by one man 592 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: dosing strangers and bars and at house parties. In nineteen 593 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: fifty five, the program expanded. White and Leave hit upon 594 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: the idea to hire sex workers and use them to 595 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: draw in men who could be drugged and then observed 596 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: secretly in a brothel. And I'm gonna quote from a 597 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: write up in the San Francisco Chronicle now. In ninety five, 598 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: White was transferred to San Francisco, where he had worked 599 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: as a journalist, and rented out an apartment on Telegraph 600 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: Hill to give his pad the desired French horehouse look. 601 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,479 Speaker 1: White furnished it with Toulose fra trek posters, a picture 602 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: of a French can can dancer in kinky photos of 603 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: women in bondage, and domination photos. It was supposed to 604 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: look rich. An arcotics agent who regularly visited said, but 605 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: it was furnished like crap. White installed bugging equipment and 606 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: a two way mirror behind which he would sit on 607 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: a portable toilet, quaffing on martini from the picture he 608 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: kept in the refrigerator, and observed the proceedings. The prostitutes 609 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: who staffed the operation were paid in part with chits, 610 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: which they could use for favors such as getting out 611 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: of jail. So to put this picture in your head, Chasen, 612 00:32:54,760 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: there is a secret brothel where people cia paid institutes 613 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: who have get out of jail free cards take John's 614 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: dose them against their will with LSD for quote unquote 615 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: scientific purposes. And the only person evaluating what's going on 616 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: in these studies is George White, who is watching them 617 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: while actively shifting and drinking martinis. Now, I would love 618 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: to go back in time and after however many months 619 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: or years of operation went on, just sit Mr White 620 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: down and say, okay, can you explain to me let's 621 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: it will? I would have several several hundred questions, but 622 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: the one question I'd be interested if you can answer, 623 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: like do you even remember what this was for? Long 624 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: term Cold War gold like in terms of national security, 625 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: do you know what you're trying to accomplish here? Because 626 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: I strongly suspect he himself had probably lost track by 627 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,959 Speaker 1: that point. I don't think he ever is thinking about it, right, 628 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: Like is he He's not sitting down and being like, 629 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: this is bringing us one step close and time my 630 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: mind control, Sarah, and that'll let us beat the Soviets. 631 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: He is he is pooping and drinking or teeny's while 632 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 1: he watches strangers have sex, which he does for years, 633 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: for hours every week. So as this has kind of 634 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: gone unspoken for three episodes listeners, but you may have 635 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: noticed we're doing a series on the CIA's misguided attempt 636 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,760 Speaker 1: to find a mind control serum, and about once every 637 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: five minutes we stumble across a much better, more reliable 638 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: method of mind control, Like just luring men back with 639 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 1: sexy women works. Again, a number of things have been 640 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: shown to work in terms of mind control. Money. Yeah, 641 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: like this guy who has gotten the government to pay 642 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: for his little sex dungeon, and like just let him 643 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: teach a class on how to manipulate people like he 644 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: got like like like look at what he did to 645 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 1: draw Yeah, Like like this guy is living a different 646 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: life than any of us. Like he's just his ability 647 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: to get the authorities and everyone else to just cater 648 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: to his whims and his weird kinks and all all 649 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: on the taxpayer dime. Like just just ask him, just 650 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: ask him how to do it. He already knows of 651 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: all of the things that we've talked about. The detail 652 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 1: about this that sticks out to me most is that 653 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: he's his office seat is also a toilets. That's who's 654 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: that's who's running this program. Like when we talk about 655 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: the most secret in like terrifying thing the CIA ever did, 656 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: like this is what a lot of it boiled down to. Um, 657 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,280 Speaker 1: it's just what a what a thing do have happened? 658 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: So over time George White learned that drugging men because 659 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: again he's experimenting with a bunch of stuff, he learns 660 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: that the best way is to drug them after they've orgasmed. 661 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: Um that that gets you better data at like getting 662 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: to listen to them talk and stuff while they're tripping. 663 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,240 Speaker 1: I guess he said quote the men expected the hookers 664 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,919 Speaker 1: to hurry off and became emotionally vulnerable when the women 665 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: said they wanted to stay a few more hours. And 666 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 1: again this is as close to you get as like 667 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: actual usable data. There's like, oh, you can manipulate men 668 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: by making them think women like them. That is the 669 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: most useful piece of information. This is the entire m 670 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 1: k Ultra program has uncovered so far. Something about their 671 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: mindset seems to shift after the seaman has left their body. Hm, 672 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: there's there's a sort of clarity that seems to come 673 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: over their their brains. George White kept done it again. 674 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: Give this man another bucket of LSD. It's it's something else. 675 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: So do you know what they call this, Jason? Have 676 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: you read the name they give this this program. I 677 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: can't wait to find out. It's Operation Midnight Climax. Okay, 678 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: so again their whole thing of we we carefully disguised 679 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: these operations given that randomized because this is just a 680 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 1: straight up porno name like Kim k Ultra. That's that's 681 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: the name of like an anime series. If you make 682 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: a porno about the CIA drugging people in a brothel, 683 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: that's what you call it. It's um Yeah, be so 684 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: redundant to make a porno out of this, Like that's 685 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: all it was a guy watching this throw to one 686 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: way mirror like it was already that it is. One 687 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: of the things that's interesting about this to me is that, 688 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: like we started this series talking about that time the 689 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: Army poisoned the entire city of San Francisco just to 690 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,760 Speaker 1: see what would happen. It's weird to me they that 691 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: like that keeps being their base of operations, Like all 692 00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 1: of these experiments, they everything keeps winding up back in 693 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,359 Speaker 1: San Francisco. Maybe it's just that the weather is nice 694 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: and that's where people would prefer to be then the 695 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: East Coast a lot of the time, but it's it 696 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: is weird that, yeah, San Francisco is where this all 697 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: of these programs keep ending. The funk up um so 698 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 1: using you know, the operation Midnight Climax starts as they've 699 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 1: got this brothel and they're doing the experiments in the brothel, 700 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: but eventually they decided to expand out and just use 701 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: the entire city as a base. So George White does 702 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: a lot of this himself, but he also has agents, 703 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: some of whom are stationed. There's some of whom just 704 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: fly into like try experiments and they'll just dose random 705 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: people at restaurants and bars in San Francisco. Um, they 706 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: fan out across the city and just like give L 707 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 1: s D to people, um and not just l s D. 708 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,240 Speaker 1: One source with the agency later told a journalist quote, 709 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,360 Speaker 1: if we were scared enough of a drug not to 710 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: try it out on ourselves, we sent it to San Francisco, 711 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 1: and the CIA would just give it to people and 712 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: see what happens. Um. One thing I will say for 713 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: George White that that that maybe a mark in his 714 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: favorite morally. Any time he gets some new weird drug 715 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: from the CIA, he always tries it on himself first. 716 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 1: So that is the most honorable thing we've heard of 717 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: yet in these episodes. No, I will, I will bravely 718 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: throw myself on this grenade because because what if it 719 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,240 Speaker 1: turns out this gets you more high than anything else 720 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: that's ever been made. Yeah, it's better that I It 721 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:32,760 Speaker 1: is better that I check. I will bravely, bravely sacrifice myself. Yeah, 722 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,240 Speaker 1: these are what the heroes of the CIA are doing 723 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: for us, jumping on that grenade. You know who will 724 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 1: jump on a grenade for you? Jason uh as some 725 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: sort of a monthly mattress service that we'll send you 726 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 1: a mattress in the mail every month. If you had 727 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 1: to have a product jump on a grenade for you, 728 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: you could do a lot worse than a mattress. And 729 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: they can ship those to you in a box. You know, 730 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:57,399 Speaker 1: they'll get it to you in just a couple of days. 731 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:11,839 Speaker 1: I am mattress. Uh, we're back speaking of mattresses. UM, 732 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: George White is buying a lot of them because he 733 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 1: opens the second safe House in Marin County, which is 734 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever been to the Bay Area, 735 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: it's it's like a very very wealthy, very beautiful like area, 736 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: kind of outside of San Francisco. UM. And because it's 737 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 1: like number one, it's it's kind of high income. UM, 738 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 1: they're able to get like this bigger place that has 739 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: more space to allow for more elaborate experiments. The CIA 740 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: tests things like stink bombs and itching powder there, in 741 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: addition to stuff like specially designed hypodermic needles that could 742 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 1: inject poison into a wine cork. Gottlieb even tried out 743 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: an aerosolized L S D bomb on a party they 744 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: hosted there, but it didn't work due to the humidity 745 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 1: uh that particular day. Now, I think it's worth emphasizing 746 00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: that while White is doing all of this, he's also 747 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,279 Speaker 1: a highly placed officer with the Bureau of Narcotics. Like 748 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: he's one of the top men at what becomes the 749 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 1: d E a UM, and he's the guy who's like, yeah, 750 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: I'll do any drug. I don't give a ship like, 751 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 1: I'll take it, you know, I'll give it to people, 752 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: I'll poop and I'll watch him. Um. He is reported 753 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: to have regularly used the CIA's brothels to host parties 754 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,280 Speaker 1: for his fellow narcotics officers. One survey of his career 755 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,399 Speaker 1: claims quote, sometimes after a tough day on the beat, 756 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,319 Speaker 1: he invited his narco, but he's up to one of 757 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 1: the safe houses for a little R and R. Occasionally 758 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: they end zipped their inhibitions and partied on the premises, 759 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: much to the chagrin of the neighbors, who began to 760 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: complain about men with guns and shoulder straps chasing after 761 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: women in various states of undress. Needless to say, there 762 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: was always plenty of dope around, and the FEDS sampled 763 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,399 Speaker 1: everything from hashish to L s D. White had quite 764 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: a scene going on for a while. By day he 765 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,879 Speaker 1: fought to keep drugs out of circulation, and by night 766 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:55,280 Speaker 1: he dispensed them to strangers. But who who better knew 767 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,439 Speaker 1: the danger of these substances than a man that had 768 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:03,799 Speaker 1: been at the front line. Yeah, Like it's like we 769 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,799 Speaker 1: got to remind ourselves what we're trying to stop. Like, 770 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,719 Speaker 1: imagine if everybody lived like this? Yeah, what what problems 771 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: we would have if everyone lived the way that Narcotics 772 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 1: Bureau officers do. We're just doing these drugs to keep 773 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 1: them out of circulation. Um. So yeah, again, we keep 774 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 1: harping on this, but it is kind of impossible to 775 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,399 Speaker 1: see how George White, who is the guy running their 776 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: experiments on LSD, how he could possibly have conducted experiments 777 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: that provided useful data. He is nothing but a career 778 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:40,240 Speaker 1: drug addict and thug, and he's just like, yeah, pooping 779 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 1: and watching them have hallucinations. Um, that's the science. There 780 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,759 Speaker 1: are no doctors or other health professionals on hand at 781 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 1: any of these brothels in case an experiment goes wrong, 782 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 1: and things did go wrong often. In one particularly disastrous example, 783 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: a federal marshal named Wayne Ritchie was dosed with LSD 784 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 1: at the Federal building in San Francisco. He flipped out, 785 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,040 Speaker 1: grabbed two guns and immediately robbed a bar in the 786 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: Filmore district. Now Richie did not know what was happening 787 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: to him, right, he drinks like some water or some ship, 788 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 1: and then he is hallucinating and he robs a fucking store. Um, 789 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,720 Speaker 1: I don't know what else is going on with Richie 790 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: because I don't think a normal response to LSD is 791 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,400 Speaker 1: to rob fucking bar. But also he's a federal marshal 792 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 1: who knows what kind of ships he's had happened in 793 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 1: his life. But um, he gets off basically like because 794 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: he's a fed and he has a clean record, he 795 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 1: doesn't do any prison time, but he never knows that 796 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: he doesn't know that he's been drugged. And so for 797 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: the next twenty two years he kind of assumes that 798 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 1: he's lost his mind. His career collapses, his life falls 799 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 1: apart um, and he just has no idea what has 800 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 1: happened to him until twenty two years later, Sydney got 801 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:55,320 Speaker 1: Leeb dies and Richie reads his obituary, which Minson mentions 802 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 1: mk ultra because a lot of this has come out 803 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 1: since then, and Richie's like, oh fuck, is that what 804 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: happened to me, like, is this what occurred? And and 805 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: we obviously we can't confirm whether or not Richie is 806 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 1: someone who got dosed as part of m k Ultra, 807 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: But White, second in command for Operation Midnight Climax, did 808 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: admit to drugging strangers amount around town and said in 809 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,840 Speaker 1: an interview quote, I didn't do any follow up. It 810 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,719 Speaker 1: just wasn't a very good thing to go and say 811 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 1: how do you feel today? You don't give them a tip. 812 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,200 Speaker 1: You just back away and let them worry like this 813 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: nitwit ritchie. So I'm gonna say his his his theory 814 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: that he may have been doseds credible. Yeah, And again, 815 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:40,359 Speaker 1: no effort to actually collect data, observe a month down 816 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,719 Speaker 1: the line, six months down the line. No, Like the 817 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: question of what were they even trying to accomplish again, 818 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,760 Speaker 1: I don't there's a point where I think the people 819 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,759 Speaker 1: on the scene themselves could not have told you, you know, 820 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: just a thing they were doing that. It's just it's 821 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: it's got its momentum now. And obviously, like these are 822 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 1: all the questions you want to answer, is like do 823 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,960 Speaker 1: they care about learning anything? Is there something more here 824 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,799 Speaker 1: we're missing? Because spoiler, a lot of the information that 825 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,280 Speaker 1: they gather is destroyed later. Um, like, what is happening 826 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,720 Speaker 1: in the heads of these people? And obviously we can't 827 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 1: answer that, and maybe they couldn't either, But to provide 828 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 1: some context for what that answer might be, I do 829 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: want to read another response that white second in command, 830 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 1: a guy named Feldman, gave to an interviewer about like 831 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 1: what was happening at the time. Quote several times Sydney 832 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 1: Gottlieb came out and met Gottlieb at the pad and 833 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,840 Speaker 1: at White's office. Sydney was a nice guy. He was 834 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,799 Speaker 1: a fucking nut. They were all nuts. I says, you're 835 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 1: a good Jewish boy from Brooklyn, like me, what are 836 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,439 Speaker 1: you doing with these crazy cocksuckers. He had this black 837 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: bag with him. He says, this is my bag of 838 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: dirty tricks. He had all kinds of crap in that bag. 839 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,160 Speaker 1: We took a drive over to m your woods out 840 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 1: by Stintson Ranch. Sydney says, stop the car. He pulls 841 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:55,959 Speaker 1: out a dart gun and he shoots this big eucalyptus 842 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,399 Speaker 1: tree with a dart. Then he tells me come back 843 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: in two days and check on this tree. So we 844 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,879 Speaker 1: go back in two days. The tree was completely dead, 845 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,319 Speaker 1: not at least left on it. I went back and 846 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 1: I saw White and he says to me, what do 847 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 1: you think of Sydney. I said, I think he's a 848 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,479 Speaker 1: fucking nut. White says, well, they may be a nut, 849 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,880 Speaker 1: but this is the program. This is what we do. 850 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 1: So I would like you to contrast that with Hollywood's 851 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:31,040 Speaker 1: favorite trope of the group of secret agents who are 852 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 1: not governed by any kind of oversight, like like Tom 853 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,879 Speaker 1: Cruise's Mission Impossible for us, Like Hollywood loves this thing 854 00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 1: of like, well here's this guy, like like if we 855 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: had to go through all the bureaucracy and permission, we 856 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't get the bad guys. To really get the bad guys, 857 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 1: we'd uh Jack Ryan, we need whatever. Like it's a 858 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 1: whole genre of the super badass who operates off the books. 859 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,360 Speaker 1: If you get caught, we will deny. We know you, 860 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 1: there'll be no oversight. You're not acording to the government, 861 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 1: and you know that you're the Mission Impossible team and 862 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,640 Speaker 1: you're gonna be working completely. We're gonna fund you, give 863 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,240 Speaker 1: you all the gear, all the gadgets, all the maskmaking stuff, 864 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,840 Speaker 1: and we're gonna trust you without oversight that you're gonna 865 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:14,719 Speaker 1: get the job done. You're gonna go get the nuke, 866 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,960 Speaker 1: You're gonna be gonna stop it. In reality, when you 867 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,359 Speaker 1: give a bunch of dudes a blank check to just 868 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,759 Speaker 1: do whatever under the guys of hey, your work is 869 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,680 Speaker 1: so important, we're not gonna ask you what you're doing. 870 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 1: This is what you get more often than not. Can 871 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,640 Speaker 1: you imagine a situation in which it would be useful 872 00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:39,279 Speaker 1: to have this tree killing dart like Sydney, we can 873 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,799 Speaker 1: already kill trees, man, Like, I don't think you really 874 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,920 Speaker 1: accomplished much here by murdering a random tree with this 875 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:50,480 Speaker 1: dart gun um like it's it's baffling, and one of 876 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:54,200 Speaker 1: the things that's interesting he is working on, like terrible poisons, 877 00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,399 Speaker 1: like one of the things he does figure out by 878 00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: like laboriously collecting more of a specific kind of shelf 879 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,319 Speaker 1: issh vindom than had ever been collected, as he makes 880 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,719 Speaker 1: like a perfect suicide drug, like just this idea the 881 00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: ideal way to kill yourself if you're captured with like 882 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,000 Speaker 1: a minimum of pain as quickly as possible, can't be reversed. 883 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,480 Speaker 1: Like he figures it out and they put it in. 884 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,160 Speaker 1: They have a couple of different devices for dispensing it 885 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,280 Speaker 1: to people. They give it to like pilots on these 886 00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,279 Speaker 1: you know, these spy planes that we have flying over 887 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,840 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. They'll give them these like suicide drugs 888 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: to take so that if they're captured they could kill themselves. 889 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,799 Speaker 1: A bunch of these guys crash with Sydney's poison on it. 890 00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,560 Speaker 1: None of them ever use it, because it turns out 891 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,120 Speaker 1: it's not really like it's it's kind of hard to 892 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,799 Speaker 1: go from like doing my day job to committing suicide 893 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,799 Speaker 1: on a die. Yeah. Yeah, that's the part of the 894 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,839 Speaker 1: equation that a guy like him would not consider. Yeah, 895 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,040 Speaker 1: you know, maybe they don't. I mean, it's it's it's all, 896 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,680 Speaker 1: it's so weird. I do love the degree to which 897 00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,880 Speaker 1: this guy Feldman like is just yeah, man, I'm like 898 00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,400 Speaker 1: a criminal, funked up guy, So of course I'm willing 899 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,959 Speaker 1: to do this. Like all these people are crazy, they're 900 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,000 Speaker 1: not like they're they're all just lunatics. Um, but this 901 00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,520 Speaker 1: is money, you know, And that's what White says, right, 902 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:12,479 Speaker 1: this is what we do. Um, So that's all good. Now. 903 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:16,440 Speaker 1: In his book, Stephen Kinzer continues quote Gottlieb's visit to 904 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:20,400 Speaker 1: San Francisco were not for purely business purposes. Operation Midnight 905 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,440 Speaker 1: Climax gave him ready access to prostitutes. According to Ira Feldman, 906 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,760 Speaker 1: he took full advantage of this prerequisite. He was caught crazy, 907 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:31,480 Speaker 1: Feldman said, well free associating about Gottlieb. During a legal 908 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: deposition near the end of his life, he recalled complaining 909 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:36,799 Speaker 1: to George Hunter White, all he wants me to do 910 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,600 Speaker 1: is get him laid. Anytime that funk came to San Francisco, 911 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,600 Speaker 1: get me a girl, Feldman said, he always needed a girl. 912 00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:48,399 Speaker 1: I know that some listeners are asking, are these real people? Like? 913 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,640 Speaker 1: How how was that everyone involved in this as a 914 00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,799 Speaker 1: cartoonish parody of the human being. I think it just 915 00:49:55,840 --> 00:50:00,239 Speaker 1: worked out that way. Yeah, it was the fifties, you know, now, 916 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,879 Speaker 1: are we still in the fifties. It's yeah, okay, we're 917 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,239 Speaker 1: in the mid to late nineteen fifties when this is 918 00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,479 Speaker 1: all going on, right, Um, this is like the mid 919 00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:11,719 Speaker 1: fifties is kind of when they moved to San Francisco, 920 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,000 Speaker 1: and so this is kind of all throughout the end 921 00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:17,719 Speaker 1: of that decade, and this whole thing is descended into 922 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:26,120 Speaker 1: a nasty, just orgy operation with incredibly quickly, Like there's 923 00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,839 Speaker 1: a lot of time, Yeah, from the genesis of the 924 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,080 Speaker 1: project where it's just it's just a sex dungeon they're 925 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,960 Speaker 1: running when this guy jerks off on a toilet. Uh, 926 00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,640 Speaker 1: we'll talk about you know, there's conspiracy theories about like 927 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,439 Speaker 1: did they make the UNI bomber? Right? Did they make 928 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:46,000 Speaker 1: Charles Manson? Um. My favorite conspiracy theory is like, hey, 929 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,439 Speaker 1: did Sydney Gottlieb realizing like nineteen fifty four that none 930 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,080 Speaker 1: of this was ever going to do anything? But he 931 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,640 Speaker 1: had an excuse to like have the CIA pay for 932 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:55,719 Speaker 1: a brothel and all of the drugs he wanted to 933 00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,080 Speaker 1: do and free trips to San Francisco to party and 934 00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,000 Speaker 1: get laid. And that's more less most of what was 935 00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:05,520 Speaker 1: happening here. That's not impossible. Yeah, and in fact that's yeah, 936 00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:08,839 Speaker 1: I'm not even sure that conspiracy theory. That may just 937 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:13,480 Speaker 1: be what Yeah, it's not much of a conspiracy theory. 938 00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,719 Speaker 1: But you know what is a conspiracy theory, Jason, is 939 00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:24,640 Speaker 1: your fiction Careercy have we arrived at the end of that? 940 00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,720 Speaker 1: I think we have. I think it's time for blogs. 941 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 1: I'm sorry what I was sitting here thinking about when 942 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,520 Speaker 1: the guy did the whole event with the tree, which 943 00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,399 Speaker 1: I can't get out of my head. When we made 944 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:39,960 Speaker 1: incredible he shot the tree with a tree, a tree 945 00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:44,040 Speaker 1: shooting dark gun. He had it in his jacket. I says, 946 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,040 Speaker 1: come back in a couple of days. And if if 947 00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:49,400 Speaker 1: I witnessed that happening and the guy told me to 948 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,680 Speaker 1: come back in a couple of days, if all I 949 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,560 Speaker 1: found was that the tree had died, I would be 950 00:51:54,640 --> 00:52:00,719 Speaker 1: so crushingly disappointed, because what else could like a big 951 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:02,320 Speaker 1: deal I I can kill. I can go to the 952 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,359 Speaker 1: hardware store and get stuff that will kill this tree 953 00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:06,080 Speaker 1: in a couple of days, Like I thought I was 954 00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:07,640 Speaker 1: gonna come back and find out that it had gotten 955 00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,160 Speaker 1: up and walked across the street or something. Speaking now 956 00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,600 Speaker 1: like the weird word trees and Game of Thrones and 957 00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:19,640 Speaker 1: you could commune with the gods, singly gun, It's just dead. 958 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,359 Speaker 1: Is that all your Is this what you were trying 959 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,040 Speaker 1: to do? Or this one of the failed attempts to 960 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,400 Speaker 1: use your your tree your magic tree game? Was it 961 00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,959 Speaker 1: supposed to do something else? Godly was hoping it would 962 00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:37,040 Speaker 1: be talking God damn it another failure anyway? Uh Yeah, 963 00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,080 Speaker 1: The book is called if this book exists, You're in 964 00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,200 Speaker 1: the wrong universe. Has a lime green cover. You cannot 965 00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:45,200 Speaker 1: miss it on the shelf if you go buy it 966 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,800 Speaker 1: in a physical bookstore, which virtually none of you will do. 967 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,560 Speaker 1: So if you do what most people do and just 968 00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,680 Speaker 1: google that title on Amazon, it will come up. Also, 969 00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,920 Speaker 1: they have the audio book and e book whatever, all 970 00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,880 Speaker 1: all of the books that. Please. If you can support 971 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:05,480 Speaker 1: a local physical bookstore, if you still have one, please, 972 00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,480 Speaker 1: they've been hurting over the course of the pandemic like 973 00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:09,440 Speaker 1: everybody else. Buy it off the shelf. If it's all 974 00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,080 Speaker 1: the same to you. Yeah, find a good bookstore. Go 975 00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,839 Speaker 1: to bookshop dot com. Also, I think that's the I'm 976 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,439 Speaker 1: gonna double check as a network of all the the 977 00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,080 Speaker 1: indie bookstores and you can. You can order from the 978 00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,880 Speaker 1: store close to you. That will make so happy. I 979 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:24,719 Speaker 1: think it's bookshop dot org because that took me to 980 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,440 Speaker 1: a sketchy website. A lot of them will. Um. They 981 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,319 Speaker 1: will ship just no different fromarting from Amazon. It may 982 00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:35,439 Speaker 1: may be slightly more expensive, but gosh, they will appreciate it. Yes, 983 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:41,239 Speaker 1: bookshop dot org. Find Jason's book there. Um, you can 984 00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,640 Speaker 1: also find my book there. After the revolution If you're 985 00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,120 Speaker 1: looking to get two books? Why not? You know, treat yourself, 986 00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,200 Speaker 1: you deserve it. You listen to all this horrible shit 987 00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,360 Speaker 1: about the sea? A why not buy two books? Behind 988 00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,200 Speaker 1: the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. For 989 00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,080 Speaker 1: more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone 990 00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,799 Speaker 1: media dot com U, or check us out on the 991 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,560 Speaker 1: i heeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 992 00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:05,319 Speaker 1: your podcasts.