WEBVTT - Selects: Who Committed the 1912 Villisca Ax Murders? 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:03.640 Hey, everybody, it's me Josh, and for this week's select, 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:09.600 I've chosen a really unsettling episode on the Valisca Axe Murders, 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.399 one of the most unsettling murders in the history of 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:17.599 American true crime. It's from twenty seventeen and it's a 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.880 good one. But fair warning, hopefully you have a strong 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:23.400 constitution because a lot of the stuff we talk about 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:33.440 is not nice anyway. Enjoy. Welcome to Stuff you should know, 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:43.400 a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:47.519 I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles w Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry. 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:50.760 Put the three of us together at a little mystery, 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.360 a lot of mayhem, you got stuff you should and 0:00:54.560 --> 0:01:01.320 one axe? Yeah? How many is this? Three? We got 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:05.560 Lizzie Borden yet effect yep, and then this one. I 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.160 couldn't think of anymore. Well, I looked. It's funny because 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:09.360 I looked, I was like, I wonder if we could 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:13.120 do a spinoff show just on X murders. Um and 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:18.360 Wikipedia had thirty listed. I'm surprised that's it. There's like 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:23.080 ten mentioned in this this article alone. M Well, we'll 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:26.080 see why there are so many X murders. This this um, 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:31.800 this whole researching the Vliska X murder kind of solved 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:34.680 a question I've had that I didn't realize I knew 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:38.800 had how to pronounce Vliska. We just settled that by 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.200 calling the Vliska town Hall. I know, that was a 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:43.560 pretty great moment. Right before we recorded, I was like, 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:46.640 are you sure there's a Valissa? Josh called the town 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:52.120 hall and lied. Well, it was kind of a bet. 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.080 That's just settled. Yeah, we just never put money on it. 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:57.640 So if you are whoever answers the phone at the 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:01.920 Veliska town Hall, Um, first of all, thank you. You 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:06.840 got a call today, so congratulations. And second of all, 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:09.680 you just spoke to an internet celebrity. I don't know, man, 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:13.640 I think Valisca is on the map and it is 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.400 one hundred percent because of this this murder. Well, if 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:21.480 you just type in Valisca, almost all you see is 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:24.720 stuff about the sax murder. Well, yeah, the site Valiska, 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.800 Iowa dot com is entirely dedicated to this axe murder. 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.839 It's a it's a pretty big deal. Yeah, no, it's 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.400 just it doesn't mention it at all. But all the 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:36.920 copy is just in the outline of the shape of 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:40.720 an axe. They just talk about like their boys club 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:43.080 and stuff, that they're doing their Fourth of July braide, 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.800 but it's in the shape of an ax. Yeah. The 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:49.200 population and elevation is in a drop of blood coming 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:51.960 off of the axe. Yeah, it's this population, not as 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:56.440 much as it was on June ninth. That's morbid. Nineteen twelve. 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.400 Did you did you hear about this before? Well, I 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:03.360 think or hinterc effect. We had some emails from probably 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:12.119 local Iowans, Iowans Iowans Iowanian Nights saying, hey, you guys 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.560 should if you're into the not into X murders, but 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:18.799 get a load of it. If you're into reporting on 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.280 grizzly crimes, you should check out the one we had 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:24.080 in nineteen twelve. Yeah, they were right, man, This is 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:26.480 so before we get into it, I think it goes 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:29.760 without saying listeners that this is a very horrific grizzly 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.680 crime that we're going to talk about in some detail. Right, 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:38.920 listen at your own discretion. X murder is in the title, everybody. Yeah, 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:40.560 I just want to make sure we cover ourselves there. 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:44.920 This is one of the most brutal crimes in American history. Yeah, 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:46.920 and a lot of people don't know about it. Man. 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:52.800 Well let's let's let's stop jabbering and get this criming. Okay, 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:56.960 all right, where was where was this from? By the way, Well, 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.800 one of the articles we researched was from Mike dash 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:07.160 the Smithsonian magazine. They do great work, great work. There's 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.160 another guy named and named Ed Epperley who we have 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:12.040 to give a shout out to, who has like a 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:16.280 whole site called ask ed that's dedicated to this murder 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:19.440 guys researched to for like fifty five years or something 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.200 like that. Did he write one of the two books? Probably? Sure. Yeah. 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.920 He's widely known as the expert on the veliska acts murder. 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:27.680 He knows everything there is to know, and he's got 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.240 a really fascinating So if you're even remotely into true 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:32.880 crime and this thing floats your boat, go check out 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:36.800 Ed's site and you will just spend days pouring over it. Yeah. 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.320 One thing I realized in researching this was it was 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:45.400 way easier to get away with murder, yeah than nineteen twelve. Yeah. Yeah, 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:50.400 there's a lot of agreement that had this been done today, 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.200 they would have caught the guy very quickly. But yeah, 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:56.960 nineteen twelve. It was like, oh, you wear gloves and 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:00.320 you just confounded their only means of detection basically from 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:04.440 an eyewitness pretty much. Yeah, so we keep saying nineteen 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:08.800 twelve specifically, like you said, June ninth, nineteen twelve in 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.880 the little town t Well, it was one of those 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:15.760 things where it crossed over into midnight. So June ninth, 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:20.920 tenth depends on if you're still partying. Potato Potato Liska, Melissa, Right, Yeah, 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:24.719 but at five away East second Street in Valiska, Iowa, 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:29.000 which is in the County of Montgomery in the southeast 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:31.480 of the state. I believe not as far from here 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.320 as I thought. No. I just looked on a map 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:37.159 and I was like, wait, I was there, I thought, 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:42.000 I always like basically in Canada. No, huh, where is 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:44.760 it more right in the middle of the country. I 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.520 did not realize that, Like, it doesn't look further west 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.479 than like Dallas. I can believe that. But it was 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.960 the north that gets you, the northern, the northernward direction, 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:59.400 that's what gets your share. So on this night June ninth, tenth, 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:06.080 nineteen twelve, and this little house there were eight people sleeping. 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:10.480 There were a mom and a dad, Joe and Sarah Moore, 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:17.280 and then there four kids what were their names, Charles 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:22.080 I believe Herman, Katherine Boyd and Paul right, And then 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:26.160 downstairs there were two additional people sleeping in the house, 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:29.880 little Lena and Aina Stillinger, and they were just having 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.600 a sleepover, right, Yeah, they were friends of Catherine, the 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.840 oldest daughter or the only daughter I guess, of the Moors, 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:40.599 and the whole group had been at church. They were 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:45.520 Presbyterians and they had been at church that day. It 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:49.880 was Sunday for a special Children's Day Mass that Missus 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:51.560 Moore had helped put on and the kids had all 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:55.840 participated him. And at that mass, Katherine had asked her 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.120 two friends, Lena and Iena the sisters, to spend the night. 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:03.400 And so they came back home with the Moors from 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:07.000 the Children's Day Mass, and by I think ten or 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:10.480 ten thirty, they were all at home in bed and 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:14.080 the lights were out and the house was settled and dark. Yeah, man, 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:16.840 the Stillinger girls. I mean, this is all very sad, 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:20.400 But anytime I hear of a fateful turn, like oh yeah, 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:22.679 we just spent the night there that night and things 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.560 go bad. It always I don't know bothers me more. Yeah, 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:28.680 for sure, Twists of fate are terrible, especially when they 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:34.200 result in terrible deaths. So very late at night, like 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:37.920 you said, after midnight, someone crept in to the back 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.840 of the house, which was not locked. That's so up 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:46.000 for debate. Oh yeah, all right, locked or unlocked. They 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:50.040 got in without raising suspicion, right, Yeah, two story house, 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:53.600 and this is a small town, this is there were 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:55.800 I don't even think two thousand people living there then, 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:59.760 and I think even less now than there were back then. Yeah, 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:03.840 of those places. So this person, and I think by 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:05.760 all accounts we can safely say it was a man 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:12.680 creeps in this house with an axe from the property. Yeah, 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.480 it was Joe Moore's own ax. Yeah. And as we 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:19.560 will see, apparently they called these weapons of convenience because 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:24.760 back in the day, every single house in the US 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:27.360 had an ax, like in the front or backyard. That 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:29.720 just explained it. That was the question I didn't realize 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:32.800 i'd had. Why were there so many axe murderers at 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:36.040 a certain period of time in American history? Was because 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:38.440 everybody had an ax? Yeah, and you would leave it 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:42.280 just you know, yeah, like chopped into the stump that 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.280 you use as the chopping block or whatever. It'd be 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.120 like a weapon of convenience. Yeah, these days you would 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:51.240 have to kill people with like a mailbox, right, just 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:54.359 some something that everyone has, so like a silicone spatula 0:08:56.559 --> 0:09:00.240 or a high speed internet cable here you yeah, chokes 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:03.760 somebody with that. Yeah, Okay, all joking aside. So this 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.079 dude creeps in there. He's got this axe. He gets 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:09.800 and this is very key here. He gets the lamp, 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.920 an oil lamp from the dresser inside the house. He 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:17.800 takes off the chimney the glass you know, covering, and 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:20.760 takes it off, bends the wick and half so the 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.480 flame is smaller, lights the lamp, and then turns it 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:28.480 down really low, and then commences creeping. Yeah, with an 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:32.839 axe in hand, and this low light oil lamp in 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:34.920 the other chimney less lamp, which we'll see is a 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:39.120 big clue. Yeah. So he goes up the stairs, apparently, 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.400 so he passes the Stillinger girls first, yep, goes up 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:48.840 the stairs. He passes the children's bedroom and then opposite 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:52.440 I believe the landing from the children's bedroom are Joe 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.600 and Sarah's room, or is Joe and Sarah's room, and 0:09:55.640 --> 0:10:00.600 they're sleeping, and he sets the oil lamp down I believe, 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.800 at the foot of the bed, and he raises the 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:09.560 axe over his head and using the flat the flat 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.959 end flat side of the axe, not the sharp blade side, 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:17.000 but the other side, he delivers a blow to Joe's head. 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:19.439 Joe I believe, was lying on his back, even though 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:22.240 Smithsonian article says something different. Yeah, raise it so high. 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.640 He even gouged the ceiling correct. Yeah, brought it down 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.920 hard on Joe's head. Probably killed him instantly from that 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:33.280 one blow. Yeah. Then apparently he didn't disturb Sarah at 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.200 all because he did the same thing to her. And 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.080 both of them were found in a position that they 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:41.280 would have been sleeping. And there wasn't like the bed 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.640 clothes weren't ruffled. There wasn't their arm wasn't enough to 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:49.080 defend themselves. They died in their sleep, it appeared, right. Yes, 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:54.520 So he kills the parents either immediately or they die 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:58.080 probably pretty quickly, right leaves the room and goes next door. 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.440 And this is really just almost awful to talk about. 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:03.920 But he kills all the children in their sleep. One 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:07.880 by one, but again without waking any of them. Yeah, 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:12.359 by the time he got to the Stillinger girls downstairs, 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:17.160 it seemed evidence points to the fact that they may 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.839 have awakened. Finally, one of them, the older one Len 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:22.959 and I believe is the older one, and then he 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:28.560 dispatches with both of them in the same manner. Yeah, grizzly, awful, 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.640 awful murder. So that's bad enough, right, This guy just 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:34.360 went around and murdered eight people, six of them children 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:37.160 under the age of twelve. Yeah, or twelve are under 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:40.840 with the blunt end of an axe. That's bad enough. 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:44.520 But then it just gets a million times worse. And 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:49.520 this is probably why this axe murder is just part 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.280 of American history, whether we like it or not. So 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.840 what the guy does next is, well, he took the 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.719 axe and he flips it over, and he takes the 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:04.120 sharp side, and he goes around and he starts bashing 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:10.439 everybody's head in one by one. Apparently, Joe was later 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:14.600 found to have been struck as many as thirty times 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:18.400 in the head with the axe. Yeah, just one by one. 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.880 He went around and completely caved in the head and 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:26.319 face of all of his victims, methodically throughout the house 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:29.960 after they were dead, which is a bizarre, horrible thing 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:35.200 to do. Yeah, So then it gets a little bit strange. 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:38.320 He goes around to the rooms and all over the 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:42.280 house really and does different things in each one. He 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:47.000 covers windows with sheets and things. He covers mirrors. Yeah, 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:48.680 all the mirrors in the house were covered. He covered 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.840 the faces of I believe all the victims, right, Yeah, 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:55.319 one way or another. I believe all of their faces 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:57.920 were covered with either sheets or pillowcases, or I think 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.120 in the case of the girls, he pulled their dress 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.240 up over their faces. Yeah. We'll talk about that in 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:09.240 a second. Uh. Yeah, it's very um, I think in 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:13.000 the serial killer or psychopath mode though I've heard of 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.560 stuff like that before though, right, like, Um, you get 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.240 the idea that they don't the murderer doesn't want the 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:24.040 victim looking at him, Yeah, which may also explain why 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:27.480 he bashed their faces in who knows. Um. So the 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:32.800 guy apparently hangs out for a little while. Um. He 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.600 does other weird things though. The bacon he grabbed a 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:38.440 two pound slab of bacon, and I saw elsewhere that 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.120 there was another slab of bacon found in the house, 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.840 but there was at least one two pound slab of 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.000 bacon that he wrapped in a dish towel and then 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:48.839 left on the floor of one of the bedrooms. There 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.600 was a bowl of bloody water that was later found 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:57.280 he washed himself off. He washed off the axe, although 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:01.200 he left it behind um and he apparently hung out 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:05.400 for a little while in the house before leaving sometime 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:10.960 before five am. So the murders took place around midnight. Yeah, 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:15.040 and then come five am the house is dark still. 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:18.679 It's five am, so that's not the weirdest thing, although 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:21.600 we're talking about Iowa. So plenty of people were up 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.360 at five, including the neighbor, a woman named Mary Peckham, 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.840 and she noticed that there wasn't anybody up at the house, 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:32.400 which was a little odd. It was a Monday morning now, 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.920 and by seven she thought it was just downright eerie 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.440 that there was no sign of life at the house. 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:41.960 She went over and let the Moore's chickens out so 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:45.400 that they could peck around and feed. She called Joe 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:51.120 Moore's store and said, hey, has Joe showed up and 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.720 found from the employee that he hadn't. And finally one 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:56.840 of those two gets in touch with a guy named 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:00.960 Ross Moore, Joe Moore's brother, and Ross comes over and 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:05.440 unlocks the door. The front door is locked, and he 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.360 goes inside and he comes almost immediately rushing back out 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:14.160 calling for the local marshal to be called. Yeah, basically, 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.280 he gets Hank Horton as the marshall's name, He gets 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:20.480 him on the scene, and this is where things just 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.680 kind of go berserk. It's it's such a small town, 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:30.320 such a grizzly crime. Any chances of preserving a crime scene, 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:32.960 and this is nineteen twelve. I don't even know how 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.960 much a small town like this knows about preserving a 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:40.320 crime scene at the time, but any hopes were lost 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.640 within those first few hours after the discovery, because by 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.840 all accounts, there were a hundred or more people that 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:52.760 went through that house, from doctors to coroners, to investigators 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:56.680 to just townspeople, right, that were allowed to just go 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.440 in there and check things out. Yeah, So the first 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:05.200 group comes with the the the marshal, Hank Horton, right, 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:10.560 was to two doctors and a minister, Jay Clark Cooper, right, 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:14.960 great doctor name Jay Clark Cooper and Edgar Huff and 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:18.800 Wesley Ewing, who was the minister of the church. They 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.000 were the first contingent to make it into the house 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.480 after Rossmore came running out. Yeah. So they go in 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.800 and they know enough to not disturb things too much. 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:33.480 Another guy gets brought in, um La Linquist. He's the coroner. Yep. 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:36.800 He tries to take some notes about the crime scene. 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:41.320 But the person who got the most information was another doctor. 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:46.280 His name was Williams. Yeah. FS Williams was the one 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.680 who examined the body and at a later inquest, um 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:52.120 he had the most details to offer about the bodies, 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.960 of positions, all that stuff. So when those guys walked in, 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:59.520 they were at least well versed enough to know not 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.280 disturb things as much as possible, or at least more 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.680 than the townspeople knew. Yeah, and FS Williams allegedly came 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:10.399 out of the house pretty shaken and said, don't go 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.800 in there, boys, or you'll regretted to your last day. Yeah, 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:17.280 And the townspeople said, nuts to you. We're going inside. 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:19.320 We want to see some dead bodies. And they all 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:21.719 regretted it probably till their last day. Yeah, Because they 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:24.520 not only messed with the crime scene, they poked around. 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:27.840 There was supposedly the town drunk took fragments of Joe 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:31.679 Moore's skull as mementos. Like the crime scene was toast, 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:34.040 Like you said, if it could have ever been preserved, 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.520 it was toast. And even the local druggist showed up 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:41.040 with his camera to help preserve the crime scene because 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:44.440 he heard that the townspeople were tramping all over it, 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.080 and Ross Moore, not understanding what he was doing through 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.119 the guy out, thought he was just being a ghoul 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.520 trying to get pictures. So the crime scene is utterly 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:59.760 and completely lost. Yeah, and one of the things about Valesca, 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:04.800 almost said Vassela, is that it was a train town. 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:07.160 There were about thirty trains every day that went through there, 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:11.119 and so by this time, unless this person was local 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:15.040 and maybe hiding out locally, by all accounts, the murderer 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:17.000 had probably hopped a train was out of there right 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.439 that time, but they didn't gone. They didn't realize this 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:23.520 until they had already released some bloodhounds. They searched the countryside. 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:28.240 There was like a pretty pretty big search to find 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:30.879 whoever did this, and they didn't find anybody. So the 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:35.600 town was just terrified. Town of two thousand people, eight 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.280 including six children, had just been murdered with an axe 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:40.439 in your town. And now the sun's starting to go 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:42.880 down and nobody's been caught, all right, So let's take 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:45.360 a break and we'll come back and talk about suspect 0:18:45.480 --> 0:19:14.680 number one right after this. Okay, So suspect number one 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.600 might be a little surprising when you first hear that 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:24.720 he was a state senator, very um well, well well 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:29.080 respected by some as a local businessman and a very 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:33.760 prominent Methodist. Seems the town was pretty sharply divided between 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:39.000 Methodists and Presbyterian you know those days, and that stuff 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:43.679 mattered to those people. And his name was Frank Jones, 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:51.439 and Methodist immediately said, no, he's he's got to be innocent. 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.640 This is a fine upstanding member of our church. Presbyterians 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.080 are like, no, it's got to be him. And at 0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:58.560 first I was like, well, why would it be the 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:00.760 state senator? None of this makes sense. There were a 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:04.679 couple of big things that made people believe that he 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:07.359 could be the guy. Yeah. Joe Moore worked for him 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.320 for seven years and was one of his best salesmen 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:16.720 on his farm equipment team. And apparently he left in 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:20.199 nineteen oh seven, and was not too happy with the 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.120 work hours, which were sixteen hour days, six days a week. 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.560 Who would be it's like us, And then set up 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.480 a rival business and even took one of the clients, 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:32.800 the John Deer company. Yeah, that was a big one. 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:38.080 I'm sure, so big that when Sarah Peckham called Joe 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:42.679 Moore's employee to tell him the news. Yeah, Joe Moore's 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.119 employee called the John Deer people in Omaha to let 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:47.879 them know. Oh sure, they were like the third people 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.880 called after the bodies were discovered. So he takes John 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:53.640 Deer with him. So this set up an obvious rivalry 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:59.479 and worse than that apparently, and I don't know if 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:02.560 this is super were confirmed, but at least the rumor 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.800 was that Joe Moore had slept with Jones's daughter in law. 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:09.560 From what I understand, beyond a shadow of a doubt, 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:13.160 that's been that's understood, is true. That's true. So sleuch 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:16.159 with his daughter in law, who apparently kind of had 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:21.159 several affairs in town and was not very discreet. Yeah, apparently, 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:24.280 according to Mike Dash at Smithsonian, she used to set 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:29.679 up her um her meet and greets over the phone. 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.000 It's called a liaison. Oh that's right, um, over the phone. 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:34.720 And this was at a time when there was a 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:38.119 switchboard operator running the phones in the town. Yeah, they 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:41.400 could set there and listen. Yeah, and this lady obviously 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:45.160 didn't care. So um. Apparently it was pretty well known 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:48.120 that that Joe Moore had had an affair with F. 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.200 Jones's daughter in law. Yes, huge, you put those two 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:54.680 things together, and friends, the fact that apparently they used 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:56.520 to cross to the other side of the street to 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:02.439 keep from from from encountering one another, that's that's a 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:04.760 big deal in that town. You're a small town, right, 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:08.439 So Yeah, suspicion fell on to f apparently, from what 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:12.800 I understand, within a couple hours of the bodies being discovered. Yeah, 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:15.439 and suspicion not that he may have done it, that 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:18.480 Jones was actually the killer, but maybe Jones because he 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:21.399 was fifty seven years old and probably had some pretty 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:23.560 good money clearly, Oh yeah, he was wealthy. He was 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:27.080 building a bank, overseeing his new bank being built when 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:28.960 he got the news of the bodies. When you're building 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:31.639 the bank, you're you're rolling in it. Yeah, So everyone 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:34.440 thought that he probably hired somebody out to kill him 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:39.080 and there was a very the Burns Detective Agency. There 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:41.639 was a detective named James Wilkerson who said, you know what, 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:43.639 I think you're right. I think he hired someone, and 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:47.680 I think that man's name was William Mansfield, William Blackie Mansfield. 0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:51.720 It was already, Um no, he wasn't already. He would 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:57.000 later be, I believe, convicted of an axe murder himself. Yeah, 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:00.679 which is probably one of the chief reasons he was suspect. Well, no, 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:03.080 that that came a couple of years after. I believe 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:07.760 that was nineteen fourteen or fifteen, that he murdered his wife, 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:11.640 her parents, and their child, their child, his chocket with 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:14.280 an axe. Right. Yeah, See, I was a bad dude. 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:18.680 But there was one problem with James Wilkerson's theory. Blackie 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:24.080 Mansfield had an airtight alibi. He was in Illinois, hundreds 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:27.360 of miles away when the crimes occurred. Not only did 0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:31.080 the foreman vouch for him, but the payroll records showed 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:34.800 very clearly that he had not been in Viliska that 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:38.840 day and couldn't have done it. Yeah, so he was exonerated, 0:23:38.920 --> 0:23:43.639 but a lot of townspeople still thought that that you 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:45.639 know how it was back then and still is today 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:48.160 to a certain degree. Sure, especially in a small town. Yeah, 0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:49.800 people were convinced that he was a guy, and a 0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:51.760 lot of people probably went to their graves thinking that. 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:56.280 So even though Chuck that Mansfield was exonerated, and like 0:23:56.280 --> 0:23:59.359 you said, a lot of people thought that Jones, F 0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:03.119 Jones apparently went by f M did have something to 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:05.639 do with it. The still in your Girl's father and 0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:09.800 Ross Moore, Joe Moore's brother, both thought f Jones was 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:14.199 behind this, right and and Wilkinson made it like his 0:24:14.320 --> 0:24:18.719 personal mission to take Jones down and apparently ruined his 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:22.159 political career, cost him reelection to the state Senate. I 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:26.320 would think that probably happened anyway, just from suspicion, but maybe, 0:24:26.320 --> 0:24:30.320 but I think like there's something between townspeople suspecting you 0:24:30.640 --> 0:24:34.760 and a detective like bringing evidence against you and getting 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:37.679 a grand jury to indict you. It was like the 0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:39.399 good old days when you could be suspected of an 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:41.840 X murder and still win a Senate seat, right exactly. 0:24:44.400 --> 0:24:49.800 But Jones he didn't win re election, and uh yeah, 0:24:49.840 --> 0:24:53.399 apparently to their dying day, some people assumed that it 0:24:53.480 --> 0:25:01.159 was him behind it. Another candidate, candidate suspect. Sure in candidates, 0:25:01.160 --> 0:25:06.960 not the right word. Lynn George Jacqueline Kelly, a man 0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:09.679