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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We are talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Katie Studios producer Courtney Armstrong.

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Speaker 2: I'm here as always with crime analyst Body Move In.

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Speaker 2: Our beloved co host, Stephanie Lydecker is out this evening,

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Speaker 2: but we are lucky enough that we're joined by our

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Speaker 2: very favorite forensic expert, mister Joseph Scott Morgan himself.

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Speaker 3: How are you good?

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Speaker 2: We're going to be diving in. We have another forensic

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Speaker 2: scientific Sunday. Joseph's going to help us pack literally all

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Speaker 2: of tonight's stories. It is Sunday, Yes, no pressure, It's Sunday.

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Speaker 2: It's August third, and we do indeed have a stacked

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Speaker 2: night of headlines. We're going to be getting into the

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Speaker 2: infamous Jonestown Commune. It's opening to tourists, and we're also

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Speaker 2: going to get into the backstory of the cult and

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Speaker 2: also the ethics of this dark tourism. We will be

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Speaker 2: answering your questions about newly unsealed documents in the Idaho

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Speaker 2: student murders case. They are coming fast and furious, and

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Speaker 2: we'll be getting into the recent sentencing hearing. It was

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Speaker 2: for Shade Robinson's killer, and we're going to find out

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Speaker 2: why the judge said that what he did was out

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Speaker 2: of a horror novel, because it was. But first we're

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Speaker 2: going to go straight into a talkback.

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Speaker 4: Hey, guys, A huge fan of everything Katie's Studio's body

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Speaker 4: Joseph Scott, Margan, Everyone. Okay, I wanted to say, I'm

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Speaker 4: surprised this case hasn't got any traction. I live in Sedona, Arizona,

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Speaker 4: which is a really nice city. But there's a guy

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Speaker 4: that murdered a priest or pastor and crucified him, and

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Speaker 4: watched the interview with him on Azy Central. Body probably knows.

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Speaker 5: Why would I know? Wait a minute, is is he

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Speaker 5: calling me out? I was going to say, what were

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Speaker 5: you doing at night? No, that's he was crucified.

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Speaker 3: Joseph.

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Speaker 5: Do you know you know about this story?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, Actually we covered it on Body Bags a

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Speaker 3: few weeks back, and at the time, this is what's

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Speaker 3: so scary about this because of the proximity, this area

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Speaker 3: where he was found is kind of in a It's

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Speaker 3: not in Sidona, it's just north of Phoenix, all right,

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Speaker 3: and Phoenix has exploded. I think that we can all

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Speaker 3: agree with that if you've ever been to Phoenix lately. Uh.

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Speaker 3: And the proximity to this area and this wild man

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Speaker 3: is like running around and no one who knows and

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Speaker 3: just think about the chill that sends up in this

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Speaker 3: this pastor this poor man who was if I remember correctly,

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Speaker 3: it was like a widower, and all he cared about

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Speaker 3: was his church and tinkering on old farm equipment in

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Speaker 3: his yard. And they walked in to his home and

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Speaker 3: he had literally beenil literally nailed to the wall in

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Speaker 3: the manner of Christ being nailed to the wall, and

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Speaker 3: some kind of crude crown of thorns, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 3: and placed on this man's head. Just let that sink

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Speaker 3: in for a moment. It was absolutely terrifying case. And

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Speaker 3: that's why it caught our attentional body backs, because I

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Speaker 3: got to tell you, in all of my years in forensics,

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Speaker 3: I had never the only time I've ever encountered even

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Speaker 3: anything close to this is in the Philippines around Easter time,

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Speaker 3: when people actually they do it, which actually sends a

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Speaker 3: chill up my spine where they will walk that, you know,

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Speaker 3: and they're carrying a cross and they literally get crucified there.

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Speaker 3: But this is like a that's something they're doing of

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Speaker 3: their own volition. This is like a criminal offense. It

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Speaker 3: sounds like something out of seven, the movie Seven.

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Speaker 5: Yes, it sounds like it. So they put a crown

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Speaker 5: of thorns on his head.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is so.

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Speaker 5: That is I never heard of this. I can't believe

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Speaker 5: I'd never heard of this.

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Speaker 3: I wish I had never heard of it, but because

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Speaker 3: it was so chilling, absolutely chilling.

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Speaker 5: I just looked it up and the guy that did

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Speaker 5: it has been arrested. He confessed. His name is Adam Sheef.

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Speaker 5: He's fifty one. It looks like he has Hebrew on

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Speaker 5: his neck and it appears to be Yahweh, which is

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Speaker 5: the Hebrew name for God, right on his neck. He confessed.

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Speaker 5: The priest's name was William Shounman.

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Speaker 3: Is that yeah, it's like a German extraction name. Okay, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 5: And he would he died from significant injuries. That's all

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Speaker 5: it really says.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I got the impression at the time that it

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Speaker 3: was probably a probably blunt force combined with maybe asphyxiation.

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Speaker 3: This is a torture death. As sorry, this is what

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Speaker 3: we would classify as as torture death. And the key is,

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Speaker 3: and we still haven't found out, were these injuries anti

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Speaker 3: mortem which means before death. And just let that sink

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Speaker 3: in for a second. And you're being nailed to a

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Speaker 3: surface or alive while that's going on, and the crown

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Speaker 3: of thorns and all of these would present with anti

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Speaker 3: mortem hemorrhage in the wound. So you would just like

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Speaker 3: a bullet and if you're shot while you're alive, just

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Speaker 3: like in a nail, is actually a puncture wound. As

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Speaker 3: it enters, it creates a track. You'll have indwelling hemorrhage.

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Speaker 3: Ere if that indwelling hemorrhage exists, that means that this

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Speaker 3: is an anti mortem event. This happened while he was alive.

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Speaker 3: They still haven't released those details at this point.

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Speaker 2: This is unbelievable and I'm just again thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for the talk back, as I'm so just looking

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Speaker 2: into it, and it seems like this man had anticipated

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Speaker 2: killing fourteen other religious leaders in ten states and that

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Speaker 2: he wanted to do sort of a circuit and he

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Speaker 2: did this on Easter Sunday.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah, and it all revives

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Speaker 3: and I don't know, maybe we can say it's symbolic.

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Speaker 3: I have no idea, but yeah, And that was one

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Speaker 3: of the chilling things.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 3: I went, I took my grandbabies to Mass this year

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Speaker 3: on Easter Sunday. It's a great celebration for us. We

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Speaker 3: always do it. And I remember thinking about that at

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Speaker 3: that particular time, and it sent a particular chill up

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Speaker 3: my spahn. Wow.

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Speaker 5: So he was It says he was going to start

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Speaker 5: in Phoenix and circle a nation, just like you said earlier, Courtney,

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Speaker 5: and end in Phoenix as well. He had fourteen pastures.

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Speaker 5: He said that he didn't he didn't have a problem

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Speaker 5: with Christians. He said he was raised a Christian, he

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Speaker 5: had a good childhood, he has no religious trauma. But

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Speaker 5: that pastures are leading people astray, it's very Oh my goodness,

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Speaker 5: that's that's terrifying. And yes, the first thing I thought

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Speaker 5: of it was a movie and you nailed that, Joseph.

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Speaker 5: It reminds me of something seven, you know, that's something

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Speaker 5: that happened in seven. Oh my god. At first I

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Speaker 5: was thinking Stigmata, the movie Stigmata, right.

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Speaker 3: And that makes sense. Yeah, but for seven.

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Speaker 5: Seven yeah, oh my goodness, is pork.

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Speaker 2: Totally Well listen, thank you for bringing that to our attention.

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Speaker 2: This is true crime tonight. We are on iHeartRadio. I'm

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong here with Body Move In and of course

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Speaker 2: our beloved forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan is with us tonight.

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Speaker 2: We were kicking the night off with the story none

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Speaker 2: of us had heard about, or excuse me that Maddie

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Speaker 2: and I had not. But now I'd really like to

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Speaker 2: unpack what's going on in the latest in the manhunt

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Speaker 2: for the suspect in the Tennessee quadruple quadruple homicide body.

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Speaker 2: Can you let us know sort of what are authorities reporting.

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Speaker 5: Well, the person that's the suspected of this killing, his

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Speaker 5: name is Austin Robert Drummond and he's from Jackson, Tennessee.

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Speaker 5: Or police recovered his vehicle as we all reported later

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Speaker 5: last week, they were looking for this white Audie that

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Speaker 5: Austin Robert Drummond was driving. Well, they found it in Jackson, Tennessee.

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Speaker 5: But he remains at large and is considered armed and dangerous.

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Speaker 5: Austin Robert Drummond is wanted in connection with the murders

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Speaker 5: of four family members in Tiptonville, Tennessee, and the abandonment

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Speaker 5: of a seven month old infant twenty five miles away.

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Speaker 5: Authorities began their investigation on July twenty ninth, so this

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Speaker 5: is very recent, after the infant was discovered in the

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Speaker 5: front yard and the victims were later found dead that

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Speaker 5: same night. So they found his car and it looked

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Speaker 5: like he had been living in it. So they're suspecting

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Speaker 5: that he's pretty close by, and they're wanting people in

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Speaker 5: the area of Jackson, Tennessee, to be on the lookout.

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Speaker 5: So make sure you go to like TBI, the Tennessee

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Speaker 5: Bureau of Investigation's Twitter account, and look at his picture

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Speaker 5: and really look at it and be on the lookof

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Speaker 5: with this guy. He is not a good person. His

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Speaker 5: background is incredibly violent, right.

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Speaker 2: And Joseph, when this had first come to our attention,

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Speaker 2: you know, just days ago, as body said, this is

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Speaker 2: very very very recent. I know this is far down

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Speaker 2: the line, but it sticks in my head. The fact

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Speaker 2: that this seven month old infant was set found in

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Speaker 2: a car, would that in and of itself be attempted

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Speaker 2: homicide or some kind of I don't know what the

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Speaker 2: process was.

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Speaker 3: Sting to use. Yeah, in my estimation, is certainly reckless endangerment.

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Speaker 3: And it all depends on what Tennessee statute has it

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Speaker 3: set up, you know, how they define that. But yet,

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Speaker 3: so let me back up just a little bit, because

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Speaker 3: this child, and it was kind of unclear this person

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Speaker 3: that occupied the home where the baby was found. It's

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Speaker 3: a precious little angel. They're all precious little angels to me,

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Speaker 3: you know me. I love babies. And so baby is

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Speaker 3: in a car carrier, and so this child lady had

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Speaker 3: called it in and said there's a baby money part,

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Speaker 3: and so the authorities rolled out, Well that's the first

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Speaker 3: big indicator that had in this case. And let me

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Speaker 3: tell you how this ties back Forensically, the child is

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Speaker 3: either found at the end of the driveway or in

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Speaker 3: the yard immediately adjacent to the end of the driveway.

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Speaker 3: For all the moms and dads, grandparents out there that

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Speaker 3: have ever had to deal with a child car carrier,

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Speaker 3: where you take the infant out of the car, you

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Speaker 3: remove the entire thing, guess what that's got on it.

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Speaker 3: It's a smooth plastic surface, and there are multiple points

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Speaker 3: of contact. So one of the things I'm praying that

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Speaker 3: they did is that when and this was like, this

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Speaker 3: is a child abandonment, so you're worried about the child, right,

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Speaker 3: you're not thinking about evidence. I hope they retain that

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Speaker 3: child carrier, because we're not just looking for fingerprints, which

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Speaker 3: you would find if they're not wearing gloves, but there's

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Speaker 3: also going to be potential for DNA deposition all around

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Speaker 3: the surfaces. Because I don't know about you guys, when

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Speaker 3: my kids were little, I found myself it was like

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Speaker 3: a juggling act because you're trying to get the kid

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Speaker 3: out of the car you're carrying and maybe the kid's asleep.

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Speaker 3: You're trying not to wake them up, and you're manipulating

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Speaker 3: this thing all the way and you got your keys

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Speaker 3: in your hand, so you and it's not really well balanced,

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Speaker 3: so you're having to regrip the things. There'd be multiple

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Speaker 3: points of contact just on that alone, and whoever deposited

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Speaker 3: that kid, that precious angel at the end of that

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Speaker 3: driveway is tied to this specifically. We know that there's

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Speaker 3: no way you can avoid that or they're going to

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Speaker 3: have very detailed information about it. Well, to put a

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Speaker 3: kid off.

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Speaker 5: In a yard, I know two people have been arrested

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Speaker 5: as a complices. On August first, twenty nine year old

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Speaker 5: Jackson native to Nika Brown was arrested in charge with

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Speaker 5: accessory after the fact to first degree homicide and tampering

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Speaker 5: with evidence. And on August second, authorities charged fellow twenty

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Speaker 5: nine year old Jackson native Givanti Thomas, with accessory after

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Speaker 5: the fact to first degree homicide. Now, the authorities have

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Speaker 5: alleged the two assisted him after he committed the killings,

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Speaker 5: but how they assisted him is not being made public.

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Speaker 5: So maybe, Joseph, to your point, maybe they are the

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Speaker 5: ones who dropped this baby off and they got the

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Speaker 5: fingerprints on. These two have an extensive criminal record as is,

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Speaker 5: so their fingerprints are on file, so they might have known. Okay,

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Speaker 5: Givante put the child in the driveway.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd agree. And here's

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Speaker 3: the thing. This guy that is still loose, all right,

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Speaker 3: he is. Please do not approach this guy whatever you do,

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Speaker 3: if you recognize him on any level, this guy is dangerous.

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Speaker 3: He's been in the joint for in excess of thirteen

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Speaker 3: to forty. He's recently gotten out in the last few years.

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Speaker 3: And the reason he went in the first place, I think,

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Speaker 3: if I'm not mistake, I think it was for armed robbery.

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Speaker 3: And there are a lot of photos of him incarcerated,

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Speaker 3: and you can see his shelves from the commissary of

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Speaker 3: just stacks and stacks of food. It's very order. He's

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Speaker 3: been in the joint for a long time. He's institutionalized,

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Speaker 3: and he has a violent background, and that's what's so

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Speaker 3: terrifying about this, that he's still out there and that

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Speaker 3: he would involve himself apparently in a quadruple homicide and

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Speaker 3: abandon a baby. Yeah, and it's mind blowing. I hope

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Speaker 3: they catch this guy.

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Speaker 5: I hope they catch Oh, they're going to I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 5: he's got to be on foot at this point, and

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Speaker 5: he couldn't be too far away from his car that

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Speaker 5: they just found it. They do think he's on foot,

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Speaker 5: but they are warning the public in that area specifically

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Speaker 5: to be careful. I really want everybody that here's my

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Speaker 5: voice to go look at his picture, make sure that

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Speaker 5: you're safe.

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Speaker 2: I mean really, yeah, we'll be keeping really close tabs

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Speaker 2: on this and listen. Yeah, hopefully maybe even tonight. I

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Speaker 2: hope you have an update.

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Speaker 5: We're back with forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan. Welcome back, Joseph.

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Speaker 5: We're so glad you're here. He's going to be helping

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Speaker 5: us make sense of the three hundred plus recently unsealed

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Speaker 5: documents in the Idaho student murders case. But first we

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Speaker 5: got to talk back. Let's hear that.

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Speaker 6: Hey, ladies, I just listened to the Bodybag podcast about

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Speaker 6: the forensics found on the girl and how they were

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Speaker 6: talking about Kaylee having different rouns, and then they said

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Speaker 6: that Dylan heard Calle scream there's someone in the house,

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Speaker 6: and they said that that's why her wounds were different,

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Speaker 6: because she was trying to shut her up. So I

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Speaker 6: was just wondering if you have any thoughts about that,

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Speaker 6: and have any ideas as to why she wouldn't have

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Speaker 6: called the cops immediately. I know we can't ever put

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Speaker 6: ourselves in other people's shoes. It's very scary, but I

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Speaker 6: was just curious about that. I love you. I love

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Speaker 6: the show days.

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Speaker 5: By So that was from our voicemail. That was from

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Speaker 5: our voicemail, and we love the voicemails too. You can

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Speaker 5: call us at any time eight of eight thirty one

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Speaker 5: crime and leave us like a long voicemail and we'll

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Speaker 5: get it. But I have a lot of this. Listen,

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Speaker 5: I can talk an entire segment about this. You guys,

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Speaker 5: the surviving roommate, Dylan is insistent it was Kayleie that

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Speaker 5: said someone's here. She went downstairs and said someone's here

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Speaker 5: and ran back up. If that is true, Kaylee was

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Speaker 5: not sleeping in that room. She was sleeping in her bed,

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Speaker 5: which was still at the house at the time of

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Speaker 5: these murders. And she walked into that room and interrupted

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Speaker 5: Brian Coberger while he was doing whatever he was doing

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Speaker 5: with Maddie, and interrupted him at his most intimate moment.

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Speaker 5: And I'm not saying this is a sexual assault. A

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Speaker 5: murder by knife is intimate. It interrupted him at his

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Speaker 5: most intimate moment, and that's why he took all his

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Speaker 5: rage out on Kaylee. In my scenario. In that scenario,

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Speaker 5: Kaylee is a hero. She hears her friend in distress

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Speaker 5: and walks into that room, and that's why that wall

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Speaker 5: is removed from that bedroom.

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Speaker 2: So for anyone who's not super conversant in the case,

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Speaker 2: this is about Brian Colberger he's a former criminology PhD

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Speaker 2: student who has been found guilty of stabbing to death

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Speaker 2: Kelly Gonzavez, Madison Mogan, Xana Karnodle, and Ethan Shapin. So

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Speaker 2: that is the case that we're talking about. And Body

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Speaker 2: laid out her theory really well.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's just my I could be wrong, and

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Speaker 5: I'm totally willing to be wrong on that. I mean,

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Speaker 5: the police are saying that Kaylee was in the room

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Speaker 5: the whole time. In some of the documents we read,

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Speaker 5: it says that they were Kaylee and Maddy were side

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Speaker 5: by side. They were found side by side in the

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Speaker 5: bed and under a pink blanket. So it is important

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Speaker 5: to keep all that in mind. What do you think, Joseph,

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Speaker 5: what do you think about all this?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you can create any number, and I

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Speaker 3: don't I don't mean that in a derogatory term because

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Speaker 3: none of us here, right, Okay, the police that were

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Speaker 3: working the case were not there all right at the

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Speaker 3: moment that that happened. So yeah, I mean you have

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Speaker 3: to and as an investigator, this is kind of an

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Speaker 3: investigations one on one you begin to think about, within reason,

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Speaker 3: certain scenarios that could have played out. And I'm sure

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Speaker 3: that many people have wondered about this because you know,

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Speaker 3: you've we've thought about Kaylee's room over and over again,

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Speaker 3: and about the dynamic of sound. Sound has been Sound

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Speaker 3: has been a constant theme in the Idaho four case.

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Speaker 3: You know, what did you hear? When did you hear it?

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Speaker 3: The sensory thing that goes on because you know, sound

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Speaker 3: many times in our own lives is that we alert

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Speaker 3: to you know, noises in the house or somebody speaking

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Speaker 3: to us, and so it's a very base kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: I think that it's an interesting scenario. But for some reason,

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Speaker 3: the police believe that this may have happened. And again,

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Speaker 3: given the document dump, I'd be very curious as to

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Speaker 3: if Dylan had made specific comments about the sleeping arrangements

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Speaker 3: in that now, these two women are creatures of free will.

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Speaker 3: They can make a decision about where they're going to

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Speaker 3: sleep that night. But had anything said, well, you know,

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Speaker 3: Matty says, well, Kaylee's going to bunk in with me tonight,

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Speaker 3: We're just going to be here. Is that something that

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Speaker 3: was considered, you know, all these other peripheral issues. One

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Speaker 3: thing we do know is that when they finally walked

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Speaker 3: into that bedroom. It was an absolute horror show. And

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Speaker 3: they were adjacent to one another, so much so that

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Speaker 3: this now infamous pink blanket is at least partially covering

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Speaker 3: their bodies.

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Speaker 5: Right, So, sad, Courtney, can you bring us up to

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Speaker 5: speed on what's been going on? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely so. Brian Cooberger, he's been sentenced. This is about

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Speaker 2: a week or so ago, July twenty third. He's got

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Speaker 2: four consecutive life sentences, they're no parole, and he has

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Speaker 2: an additional ten years for burglary. And this was all

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Speaker 2: to avoid the death penalty and this horrific, horrific crime.

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Speaker 2: And since the sentencing sealed, documents that would have been

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Speaker 2: coming out during the core proceedings, which will not happen anymore,

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Speaker 2: have started and there are a ton to go through.

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Speaker 5: That's right, and we are still going through the mall.

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Speaker 5: This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. I'mbody Moving here

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Speaker 5: with Courtney Armstrong and forensics expert and our friend Joseph

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Speaker 5: Scott Morgan. And right now we're right in the middle

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Speaker 5: of talking about the Idaho student murders, and we want

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Speaker 5: to hear from you. What do you think happened? That night,

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Speaker 5: give us a call eighty eight thirty one crime or

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Speaker 5: hit us up on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.

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Speaker 5: So we do we have another.

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Speaker 7: Talk about Hi. This is Steve, the witness that was

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Speaker 7: downstairs asleep and then she thought she heard sauce bok

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Speaker 7: and heard a firecracker. Couldn't that simply be just be

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Speaker 7: that she was disoriented from sleeping and heard a noise

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Speaker 7: and associated it with those things. But it could have

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Speaker 7: been anything like you all suggested, a screeching car or whatever.

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Speaker 7: It was nothing that was actually happened. She was just

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Speaker 7: disoriented from sleeping heavily, just a thought by Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I think that's entirely, entirely reasonable that it could have

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Speaker 5: been just something that she thought about after the events

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Speaker 5: all unfolded that morning, and she was like, oh, wait

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Speaker 5: a minute, I remember kind of waking up and hearing

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Speaker 5: a firecracker and seeing sparks under my door. I mean,

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Speaker 5: it's just really specific. And she said it several different times,

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Speaker 5: and she, you know, she said it was a firework

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Speaker 5: in one a firecracker and another she said it was

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Speaker 5: like a sparkler in one, and she said his sparks

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Speaker 5: in another. So she was pretty adamant that she saw

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Speaker 5: it though. That's the only thing, right, Yeah, but.

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Speaker 2: Also you know when you are and keeping keeping in

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Speaker 2: mind the time, it's the middle of the night, it's

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Speaker 2: a big night, and you know, you wake up and

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Speaker 2: you're in that disoriented state of like, well, I was

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Speaker 2: at my mom's house back home, but then really I

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Speaker 2: was at a ballroom, Like you're so just disoriented and

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Speaker 2: making making up things.

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Speaker 5: So I think anything's possible. But listen, thanks for the talkback. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: thank you. I mean it definitely could be. What do

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Speaker 5: you think, Joseph, would you do you what do you

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Speaker 5: think about? Could it have just been like a figment

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Speaker 5: of her imagination?

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Speaker 3: Likes could be? Yeah, And what I'm thinking as well

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Speaker 3: is that many times you'll have witnesses after the fact,

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Speaker 3: and she's yeah, I guess you could consider her witness,

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Speaker 3: but she's not like at the same witness level as Dylan, Right,

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Speaker 3: But can you imagine having this all of this traumatic

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Speaker 3: information dumped into your brain and then you have this

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Speaker 3: realization of what this thing that you have dodged with

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Speaker 3: your life? And I'd be very curious about the statement

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Speaker 3: that she made. Was she influenced in any way. I

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Speaker 3: don't mean that negatively. I'm just saying our brain works

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Speaker 3: in certain ways too, And I've seen this happen on

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Speaker 3: scenes when I've interviewed people. Your brain works in certain

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Speaker 3: certain ways to protect yourself, okay, And or maybe it's

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Speaker 3: you know, it's further augmented by all of the static

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Speaker 3: that's going on. First off, I'm sure that when they

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Speaker 3: interviewed her, it was pretty damn quick, and so can

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Speaker 3: you imagine the trauma she was going through that at

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Speaker 3: that moment in time. So Lord only knows. But again,

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Speaker 3: this brings us back to this idea of sound. Doesn't

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Speaker 3: it sound? Just it's smart all the way through this case.

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Speaker 5: You're absolutely right, and you know you mentioned your the

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Speaker 5: mind has the way of protecting yourself. And I think

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Speaker 5: Dylan describes seeing Brian Koberger leaving that night right, she

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Speaker 5: can she's confronted with his image, right, And she mentions

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Speaker 5: in in different interviews something that he's carrying, And in

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Speaker 5: one of the interviews she said it looked like a

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Speaker 5: vacuum type object, and I always kind of imagined it

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Speaker 5: like a crevistool, and it being the knife in her

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Speaker 5: mind protecting her in that moment right, so something like that.

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Speaker 5: Like so when you said your mind protects you, I'm

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Speaker 5: imagining viyllain.

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Speaker 3: Well here's another interesting scenario that some people have thrown out.

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Speaker 3: You know, in forensics we use an evidence vacuum and

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Speaker 3: they're smaller than a regular vacuum, and they have interchangeable filters.

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Speaker 3: We draw stuff up. You got to be real careful

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Speaker 3: using them. I don't want to get into a big

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Speaker 3: lesson here. Bas is, it's like an M, yes, an

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Speaker 3: M vacuum, So you go if you go too deep,

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Speaker 3: like if you're vacuuming on a surface, like a carpeted surface,

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Speaker 3: you draw up stuff from way back. And some people said, well,

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Speaker 3: was he carrying an evidence vacuum? I've heard them say that. Well,

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Speaker 3: it's very distinctive and it looks completely it's like carrying

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Speaker 3: it would be like carrying a shoe box, a hose on.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't look like a knife. So I guess if

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Speaker 3: you had like an old fashion I guess I can

430
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,679
Speaker 3: say the word dustbuster, you know, I know, yeah, but

431
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 3: you know, like a dustbuster, maybe that would look But

432
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 3: how are you going to vacuum up? And I hate

433
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 3: to say this, but how are you going to vacuum

434
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 3: up blood right now? Because if you know anything about forensics,

435
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 3: you know the dustbuster just ain't going to cut it,

436
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 3: and certainly he would have to have some kind of

437
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 3: awareness of that. It's what are you going to use

438
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 3: that for? Why would you be carrying that? So my

439
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 3: money has always been on a knife. And also how

440
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 3: does she get from here in the eyes like I'm

441
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 3: on TV, I'm indicating the eyes to the down to

442
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 3: his hand.

443
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 5: Well, she said it bulged and she even stuck her

444
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 5: arms out and made like a bulge. So the idea

445
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 5: that he was carrying an m VAC isn't so crazy

446
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 5: to me. Yeah, she said it was a bulge, It

447
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 5: looked like an arrow, and she also described it as

448
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 5: being a vacuum type object.

449
00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 3: Wow, so if you.

450
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 5: Combine those three things together you kind of get an MVAT.

451
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't know the logic, and I know

452
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 2: only we only have like less than a minute left. Yeah,

453
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 2: But the logic of I'm going to go in and

454
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 2: do what I plan to do murderer Coburger and have

455
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 2: my hand occupied by a vacuum and stopped down to

456
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 2: do it, I just I don't think it like makes

457
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 2: so much logical, it doesn't sense. I think what you

458
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 2: said about Dylan's brain sort of you fill in the pieces.

459
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 5: We do it all the time in life.

460
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:28,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, we do.

461
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 5: I think that's exactly right. I think I think it

462
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 5: blow us the knife. I think it's possible. He had

463
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 5: his arm out in front of him and it looked

464
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 5: like a bulge all in black. It's hard to tell.

465
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 5: This is happening very quickly. She's inebriated. She's recounting her

466
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 5: story several different times, but she's in all of her

467
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 5: interviews she repeats this, this object that he's carrying. I

468
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 5: think it was a knife. I think she's just protecting herself.

469
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 2: I have a very quick follow up, Joseph, when you said,

470
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 2: you know you've been on the scene and people are

471
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 2: being interviewed, is it taken into consideration if something happens

472
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 2: in the middle of the night versus all the way

473
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: in the morning. So listen, when we come back, Joseph

474
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 2: will be answering how to state of mind the cliffhanger

475
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 2: to it's a cliffhanger, How does state of mind fall

476
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 2: into these things? We are also going to be debating

477
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 2: the ethics of dark tourism and we will be hearing

478
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 2: from you, so keep it here. True Crime tonight, be.

479
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 5: Right back.

480
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 2: Right at the break, we were talking about the Idaho

481
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 2: student murders and specifically sort of what some of the

482
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: victims who were left alive, and I call them victims

483
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 2: because they were in the house where this atrocity happened.

484
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 2: And Joseph, how much weight do investigators put sort of

485
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 2: into the time of day and frame of mind that

486
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 2: someone is in during initial questioning.

487
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 3: Oh, it's it really does factor in and you have

488
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 3: to be super sensitive to it. And that's the mark

489
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 3: of a really good homicide detective. They're able to read.

490
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 3: You know, we have this impression of you know, you

491
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 3: watch stuff on TV and it's all about taking a

492
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 3: gun out of the hulster. The best homicide detectives that

493
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 3: I've ever known, the only time they ever took their

494
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 3: gun out of hulster was when they went to qualify.

495
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 3: Every year. It's all between the ears and you being

496
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 3: able to read the room and read because these people

497
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 3: are they're peripheral victims as well the stuff that they've seen,

498
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: and you have to be able to pick up on

499
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 3: those little cues. I was not as good at it

500
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 3: because I'm a medical legal death investigator. But my friends

501
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 3: who I have very dear friends work with for years

502
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 3: that were homicide detectives. They were some of the best

503
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 3: people person You know what made them so good They

504
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 3: only listen, they rarely talk, and to be able to

505
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 3: perceive that, and particularly when you've got a situation like

506
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 3: you had in Idaho where you have got this butchery

507
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 3: that has gone on and this young lady has borne

508
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 3: witness to it or has been in the presence of it,

509
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 3: and being able to tune into that and listen to

510
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 3: what she is saying, how she is saying it, her

511
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 3: body language. And this is not like somebody like your

512
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 3: question a suspect here, Mary. This is an interview. This

513
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 3: is not an interrogation. There's a gulf of difference between.

514
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 3: Sometimes interviews turn into interrogations, but we're talking about interviewing.

515
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 3: You're trying to collect that information. You don't collect information

516
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 3: by running your mouth. You collect information by opening your

517
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 3: ears and listening to people.

518
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 5: Instead of waiting for your turn to talk. Right, you're listeners. Yes,

519
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 5: you're Joseph. I you know I debated asking you this,

520
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 5: but you know you you are a death investigator. You

521
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 5: know you this is your profession. You're not an amateur,

522
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 5: and so you know I'm just going to ask it.

523
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

524
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 5: In the document dump, we get the police notes from

525
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 5: talking with the medical examiner, and in that docum we

526
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 5: learn about the fatal injuries each victim succumbed to. And

527
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,479
Speaker 5: my friend Kristen found something that you know, her and

528
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 5: I were talking about that. I think we both think

529
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 5: it's interesting. But I want to hear from you, Ethan.

530
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 5: This is how it says, this is how it's described,

531
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 5: and trigger warning. I'm talking about the human body and

532
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 5: injuries that were succumbed. Ethan. Chapin's fatal injury was from

533
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 5: a stab wound under his left clavicle which severed his

534
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 5: Subclovanian vein and subclovanian artery, and also his jugular vein

535
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 5: was severed, so it says under his left clavicle. Okay, yes,

536
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 5: Kaylee kansolves. His fatal injuries included a left lung laceration,

537
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 5: a liver laceration, two subdural bleeds, and a stab behind

538
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 5: her clavicle which cut her subclovanian vein and artery right,

539
00:28:54,880 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 5: so they both both victims had the same injury. One

540
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,719
Speaker 5: says behind and one says under. Is that because the wound,

541
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 5: the entry wound tells the medical examiner if it's behind

542
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 5: or under or behind it.

543
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 3: Under are two different designations. So if you think about under,

544
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 3: if and when we say claviical, we're talking about the collarbone.

545
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 3: So if you just find your collar bone, which is on,

546
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 3: obviously it's beneath your chin, it's above the breast line,

547
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 3: it's up high you find it. Many people break their collarbones.

548
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 3: It's tubular in shape. So behind means that it's always

549
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 3: implied to me. So if you think, if you think

550
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 3: about behind it, imagine somebody driving a knife downward because

551
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 3: they have to be in that attitude and going behind,

552
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 3: going behind the clavicle and beneath means you go under

553
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 3: the bone and it's not. There are a whole cluster

554
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 3: of critical vessels that are kind of clustered right there.

555
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 3: And you're talking about the subclave artery, subclave vein, which

556
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,239
Speaker 3: is I think is probably a misstatement because you've got

557
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: the jugular vein. And so when you cluster those and

558
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 3: there's a famous case it's currently being adjudicated the Courtney

559
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 3: clinny case if you guys are familiar with that, where

560
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 3: she allegedly the of model, allegedly through the ninth stabbed

561
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 3: the young man in the chest, her boyfriend. And you

562
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 3: know she stabbed him in below the clavical with things

563
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: a one in a million shot. She's saying that's what happened,

564
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 3: that she didn't stab him anyway. It involves the same

565
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 3: structure back behind here, and this is a critical area.

566
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 3: As a matter of fact, if you clip this area,

567
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: I don't care if you have a team of cardiothoracic

568
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 3: surgeons standing by, You're not gonna save this personally because

569
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 3: you begin to bleed out so quickly, particularly if you

570
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: clip that subclave artery, you'll get arterial spray. It's a

571
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 3: bloody mess. Uh And it's really hard to stem that

572
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 3: blood flow, even if you have medical professionals there. So

573
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 3: it's it's almost guaranteed to be a lethal injury.

574
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 5: So the reason I bring this up is because, and

575
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 5: I'm an idiot, but I looked up the collarbone and

576
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 5: where this vein was, and I cannot see how Brian

577
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 5: Coberger could have gone down onto her shoulder area while

578
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 5: she was laying down.

579
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean it's it's actually plausible. If you're

580
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 3: talking about there was one there was one comment, and

581
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 3: I think that this is essential and I don't want

582
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 3: to miss credit Steve Consul, but he had implied at

583
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 3: one point in time that she had been it was

584
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 3: at least thought that she may have been and seated

585
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 3: upright in bed lean back. So if you've got someone

586
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 3: that's attacking you and they're wielding a knife, they have

587
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 3: the knife in their hand and they're making this downward

588
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 3: it's not a thrust, it's a downward motion like this.

589
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 3: It's it's that highly plausible. I still think that it

590
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 3: would be plausible even if someone is laying flat on

591
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 3: their back in a supine position. It'd be a bit

592
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 3: more difficult, but it's still still within the realm.

593
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 5: I just think the wall would be in the way,

594
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 5: like that where your head lays. That wall would be

595
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 5: in the way of you being able to raise a

596
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 5: knife and come down with enough force.

597
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 3: Well, it doesn't know, it doesn't require a lot of

598
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: force to make it through that area. I think, yeah,

599
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 3: it doesn't require like a tremendous amount of exerted force

600
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 3: in order and when you when you utilize a knife,

601
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 3: which he's the actual k bar. This is the actual

602
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 3: knife that it's the one that he ordered. I got

603
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 3: the same one off of Amazon, very robust. You take

604
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 3: this and you drive it straight down, it will facilitate this.

605
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 3: It would be easy to facilitate.

606
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 5: This blade is what like seven or eight inches, It's

607
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 5: got maybe a four or five inch handle. It's wood

608
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 5: and it has black striping going down on it. It

609
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 5: is this is a weapon.

610
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it is a combat knife. Yeah. Right out

611
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 3: of the box. You can shave a hair with it.

612
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 2: And so right between the blade and the handle, it

613
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: looks like there's sort of a grip that means you

614
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: can use it and your hand not slip down.

615
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 5: Is that correct?

616
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 3: Yes, it's a guard. It's a hand guard, and actually

617
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 3: it's developed specifically importing specifically for that because as you

618
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,239
Speaker 3: can see, it gives you a point of contact as

619
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 3: you're thrusting downward. You would not want to be absent

620
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 3: this because your hand could literally slide down the blade.

621
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 3: And that's reflective of when we think about poor Zana

622
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 3: that you when she grabbed this blade, which I think

623
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 3: is probably what happens I think to the injuries it

624
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 3: slices through her hand. Okay, so the person that's wielding

625
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 3: the knife, this block says, and one other point here

626
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 3: looking down the long axis of this thing. If this

627
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 3: thing is driven, you you've hurt. Yeah, you've heard the

628
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 3: term up to the hilt. This is the hilt, and

629
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 3: so you will actually get what are referred to as

630
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 3: hilt contusions. I've seen these embodies where the knife is

631
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 3: buried and it'll take the form of this of this

632
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 3: grip guard right here. Yeah, yeah, exactly, because it's going

633
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 3: on while the person's alive.

634
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh.

635
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 3: And I got shortly afterwards. But you'll see these mark

636
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 3: and you're kind of scratching your head over and the

637
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 3: Morgan you're thinking, what is this? But it's actually a

638
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 3: contusion that's brought about. It's actually brought about by this.

639
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 5: Wow.

640
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 2: Well listen, if you have as many questions as body

641
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 2: and I do for forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan about

642
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: the Idaho student murders or really any other case that

643
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 2: you have forensic outliers, give us a call. We're at

644
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: eighty eight to three to one crime and right now

645
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: we have a voicemail to go to.

646
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 8: Hi, my name is Kate from Austin, Texas, and I'm like,

647
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 8: when's your July twenty eighth episode? And I was wondering

648
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 8: when you talked about handbags what that meant. I'm not

649
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 8: from earlier with that. And then you and Joseph Scott

650
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 8: Morgan were talking about Steve being such a hero, and

651
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 8: then you talked about a stake down, and I wasn't

652
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 8: familiar with what y'all meant about that, So if you

653
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 8: could elaborate on those, that'd be great. Thanks so much

654
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 8: your podcast. It's so interesting and I look forward to

655
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 8: listening to it. The other thing that I also always

656
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 8: think about is the poor law enforcement that went into

657
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 8: the house and just I think they don't get enough

658
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 8: praise and my heart goes out to them and how

659
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 8: just life changing and a ritick that must be. And

660
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,919
Speaker 8: I hope that there are so many services in there

661
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 8: for their mental health and support for them.

662
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 5: Thank you, wow, thank you for the talk back. But

663
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 5: you brought up three really good points, and we want

664
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 5: to hit on the handbags. So there are bags that

665
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 5: go over the hands to protect evidence like DNA or

666
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 5: you know, fingerprints, you know the things that the medical

667
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 5: examiner or the coroner. I'm not sure which one actually.

668
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 5: Joseph will spand on this as soon as I finish

669
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 5: explaining the other things. But they're little baggies that go

670
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 5: over the hand. And the second one was the stakedown.

671
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 5: I think I meant to stay stare down. Steve Gonsalves

672
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 5: during his victim impact statement, turns the podium and does

673
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 5: like a stare down. It's like a contest with the

674
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 5: Brian Coberger who he is, you know, telling and dressing down,

675
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 5: telling him he's a nobody and all he's done is

676
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 5: unite them, and you know he's a joke and he's

677
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 5: just a number now in maate one six three two

678
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 5: one four b K. He's lost his identity. It was

679
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 5: a stare down. And yeah, you know, we never really

680
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 5: talk about first responders and the trauma that they must endure, right,

681
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 5: I mean, this has got to be horrific. Later in

682
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,919
Speaker 5: the show, we're gonna be covering Jonestown. Do you guys

683
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 5: remember Jonestown and the kool aid? You know she must

684
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 5: have drank there. This is where it comes from. We're

685
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 5: gonna be talking about that. But now, Joseph, we were

686
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 5: talking about the importance of handbags and what they are.

687
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 5: Can you tell everybody what they are and what they're

688
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 5: how why they're important?

689
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, sure can. As human beings, we were very

690
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 3: tactile creatures, and tactile means we touch things, and so

691
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 3: we either defend ourselves with our hands. We experience the

692
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 3: world through our hands, even as babies. So when you

693
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 3: have a crime scene, you think about how does somebody

694
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 3: defend themselves. Well, the first thing you're gonna do is

695
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 3: stick your hands out. Well, those points of contact that

696
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 3: transfers evidence the cards exchange principle, So you exchange evidence

697
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 3: between two people. When an individual passes away, you want

698
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 3: to be able to preserve that evidence. How do we

699
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 3: do it. Well, the best way we can do it

700
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 3: is we do bagging of the hands. And in the

701
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 3: past we use old brown paper bags and we put

702
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 3: them over the hands and then we tape with evidence

703
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 3: tape around the wrist. Those bags are not removed until

704
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 3: they get to the mord. Because all things happen with

705
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 3: the bodies that's going down the road. It jostles, things

706
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 3: fall out from under the fingernails, hair, if you've got hairstrands,

707
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: caught all kinds of things. So you want to catch

708
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 3: all of that, and so at the morgue we actually

709
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 3: trim these off very carefully, preserve that bag, and we're

710
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 3: going to submit that bag and its contents to the

711
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 3: crime lab and trace Evidence section will microscopically look at

712
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 3: everything that's contained therein that's where things like we talk

713
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 3: about nail scrapings and nail and trimmings and all that. Well,

714
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 3: we're trying to preserve that stuff under the nails until

715
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 3: we can get the body back, and the best way

716
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 3: to do that is to bag the hands. That's what

717
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 3: they did in Idaho. Generally, it's going to be the

718
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 3: corner or the EMMY investigator at the scene that facilitates that.

719
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 5: So for Idaho, though I don't think an emmy was

720
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 5: at the house, I think it was the corner.

721
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's that right corner. Yeah, they have an electric.

722
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 5: They have an elected corner, which means she's not medically

723
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 5: trained as well.

724
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 3: In this case, their corner is not only an attorney,

725
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 3: she's also a nurse. But it's okay, you can be

726
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 3: medically trained, but that doesn't mean you're medical legally trained,

727
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 3: and so there's an entire different certification for that. And

728
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 3: in some states have training for their corners, and some

729
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 3: of them I've taught in those academies and some of

730
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 3: them are very very good. Others, man, you know, you

731
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 3: never know what the training is. It's kind of a

732
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 3: grab bag.

733
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 5: So the corner in this case would have bagged the

734
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 5: hands on the scene so that during transport, like you said,

735
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 5: the jostling when the wiggled something new. So this would

736
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 5: have happened at the home and the medical examiner when

737
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 5: they because the victims had to be transferred to Spokane.

738
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 3: Washing Yeah, so they would have cross state lines where

739
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 3: there is a medical examiner of forensic pathologists in Spokane

740
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 3: right now. Just so that you understand, it could be

741
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 3: dependent upon the level of trust of local law enforcement.

742
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 3: There might be a crime scene evidence technician that's on scene.

743
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 3: I've actually seen them bag hands at scenes. The most

744
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: important thing is that you want as few people as

745
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 3: possible touching the body. Matter of fact, you only want

746
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 3: one person. It generally should be the corner. They should

747
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 3: be in charge of touching and examining the body of

748
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,240
Speaker 3: the scene, which should not be really extensive. You think, wow,

749
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 3: you really need to know. You don't want to disrupt anything.

750
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 3: You want to keep the body in a pristine state

751
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 3: until you can get into a controlled environment where the emmy,

752
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,879
Speaker 3: the bags in the hands can be removed, photographs can

753
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 3: be taken, and then eventually after you've examined all of

754
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 3: the clothing, the clothing is taken off and you do

755
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 3: X rays and all this before you ever ever start

756
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 3: the autops.

757
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 5: Later in the show, we're going to be talking about

758
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 5: the infamous Jonestown massacre. I remember this. I was like

759
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 5: a little girl, I was six years old. Terrifying and

760
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 5: the debate surrounding dark tourism. But now we're going to

761
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 5: review some of today's top true crime headlines. Courtney, what

762
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 5: do we got?

763
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: So there's a Milwaukee man whose name I don't even

764
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 2: need to pass my lips. He killed nineteen year old beautiful, bright,

765
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 2: blossoming college student, Shade Robinson.

766
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 5: And he this was on her first date.

767
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 2: And this man, this monster, he spread, he dismembered Shade,

768
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: spread her body parts around the area. So he was

769
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 2: sentenced just on Friday to life in prison with no

770
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 2: possibility of parol. We've had Sena Scarborough, Shada's mother, on

771
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,879
Speaker 2: the show. She will be here again. She is an

772
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: unbelievable victims at luckily even she's, oh my gosh, a

773
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 2: pillar of strength with everything she's been going through. And

774
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: also in the sentencing there were victims impact statements, so

775
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 2: both Sena as well as Shadai's father as well as

776
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 2: Shade's younger sister had really great if great's the word,

777
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 2: victims impact statements, very moving. Yeah, So what the charges

778
00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 2: are this man the demon as Sina Scarborough pretty accurately

779
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 2: describes this man the demon.

780
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 5: Yes, she used to refer to him as the gun,

781
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 5: that's right.

782
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: So the jury convicted him a first degree intentional homicide

783
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 2: of mutilating a corpse of arson, and then there was

784
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 2: another charge that was pulled off. Actually for people who

785
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: are super into legal eese, another charge had been hiding

786
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 2: a corpse, but that was taken off because you cannot

787
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: be charged at the same time of both hiding a

788
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 2: corpse and mutilation, which was something that the judge sort

789
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 2: of realized live during sentencing. Joseph, I know this is

790
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 2: a story that you covered extensively. Did you even potentially

791
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 2: cover it on your podcast Bodybugs?

792
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 3: Yeah? I covered it on Body Bags and covered it

793
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 3: on our Mutual Friend show. Nacy grace several times actually,

794
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 3: and there appeared with this poor young lady's mother as well,

795
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 3: and you're right, she very palm my gods, so powerful

796
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 3: to hear what she has to say. Yeah, I did,

797
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 3: and very very disturbing. And the fact not just the homicide,

798
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,240
Speaker 3: but the disrespect that was shown to all that remained

799
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 3: of her is the real insulting thing. I think. You know,

800
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 3: absent her life, you know that she'll never be there again,

801
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 3: but also the disrespect shown to her mortal remains is

802
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 3: something that most people can't even begin to fathom.

803
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 5: Can you speak to.

804
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 2: Is dismemberment as a forensic expert, what does that tell you?

805
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,760
Speaker 3: Well, it tells me, first off that if it's something

806
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 3: that has to be planned. Now, I've worked cases of

807
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:44,919
Speaker 3: dismemberment where individuals have suddenly panicked and they've decided that

808
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 3: this has to be done immediately, and then I've had

809
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 3: and they don't have the appropriate tools at hand. I'll

810
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 3: put it to that way, and to have other cases

811
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 3: where individuals, you know, which is actually something that we're

812
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 3: thinking about now, would list long islands here killer And

813
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 3: this is something that comes back over and over again

814
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 3: where we think about there's prep that goes into this,

815
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 3: and you have to have the appropriate tools, and you

816
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 3: have to have some kind of baseline anatomical understanding in

817
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 3: order to facilitate this in an expedient manner, because if

818
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 3: you don't have the appropriate tools and you don't understand

819
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 3: the structure of the human body, it gets very, very difficult.

820
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 3: Because I've had individuals that have gone to the midshaft

821
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 3: of a thigh and attempted to do a dissection with

822
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 3: a saw. It's not what you have to do. So

823
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 3: you know, you have to use sharp instruments like scalpels

824
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 3: or really sharp knives to get through soft tissue. Then

825
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,240
Speaker 3: you have to use some type of saw and generally

826
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 3: it's best at the joint. Most people don't understand that.

827
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 3: And here's the other thing I think, and this is

828
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 3: quite fascinating from a forensic standpoint. Most people get into

829
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 3: this and they think that they want to do it,

830
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 3: and they panic because they realize what they're on about

831
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 3: at this point in time. Oh my god, Oh my lord.

832
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 3: I didn't know it was going to be this way.

833
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 3: And it's one thing to remove a limb, but when

834
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 3: you get to the torso that's a difficult difficult thing

835
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 3: to do. What are you going to do with the

836
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 3: torso in this particular case, I know because I've covered

837
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 3: it that her torso was essentially recovered intact. There's not

838
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 3: a lot you can do with the torso. You can try,

839
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 3: but it's a doubly messy affair at that point in time.

840
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 3: And I'm not going to go into all of the

841
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 3: details here because it's just too disturbing on this program,

842
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 3: but I suffice it to say you have to have

843
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 3: the appropriate tools. It speaks a lot to the person's

844
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 3: mindset that has the ability not just to take a life,

845
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 3: but then to destroy all that remained of them at

846
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 3: that point in time. It's really another lead. If you

847
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 3: think that murder is bad, couple murder with this bit.

848
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 3: And you know, I've actually seen and my partner or

849
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 3: I did a special on dismemberment, and we've actually seen

850
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 3: an uptick in dismemberment cases. We seem to be covering

851
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 3: more and more of these in the news, and we

852
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 3: don't understand. I don't have empirical data to back that up,

853
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 3: but I know that there's more and more of these

854
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,399
Speaker 3: cases that come up, and I don't understand what kind

855
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 3: of rubicon. You know, we as a society have crossed

856
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 3: at this point where we have so many to dismemberment

857
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 3: cases that are entering into the news.

858
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: Well, that's part of why we thought it was important

859
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 2: to bring it up. And we thought long and hard,

860
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 2: honestly about asking you to dive in even surface level.

861
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 2: But it is it speaks to something greater that's going on.

862
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,879
Speaker 2: I mean, the judge I think said it, well, it's

863
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: a quote. It's beyond imaginable to not know whether your

864
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 2: child is dead or alive, and then to learn they're

865
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 2: dismembered and disgraced is beyond understanding.

866
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 5: But a lot of this because what I was brought.

867
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 2: To mind with shaw Da Robinson's case is not just Statistically,

868
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 2: black women on average are murdered six times more often

869
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 2: than white women, and in the state of Wisconsin it's

870
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 2: twenty times higher than white women. And I feel like

871
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 2: with that it is twenty times. Yes, it is in

872
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 2: the state of Wisconsin. Oh my goodness, it's unbelievable. It

873
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 2: has to do with racial disparity and many many other topics,

874
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 2: and we should make a whole evening of this.

875
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 5: I think we should maybe when she comes back.

876
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, because, like you said, Joseph, where have people passed?

877
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 2: And this is something that we found when Stephanie and

878
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 2: I with everyone at Katie Studios were doing the documentary

879
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 2: Murdered and Missing in Montana.

880
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 5: Actually, Joseph, you were on that.

881
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 2: There was also with indigenous women, basically people of color.

882
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:54,839
Speaker 5: Just the disregard even to the body.

883
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 2: You've already taken a life and then you're going to

884
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 2: go one hundred times further.

885
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 5: And it's and I had, you know, in my own

886
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 5: experience with the case that I was involved with. He

887
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 5: was dismembered as well. Body parts were sent across the

888
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 5: country of Canada and he put Junlin's torso in a

889
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 5: suitcase for the garbage to pick up.

890
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: And that was in the of course the documentary. Don't

891
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 2: of course don't have thought.

892
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, and yeah, you know it. You know, we speak

893
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 5: to the utter disregard for human life, and you know,

894
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 5: I think Shade's mom hit on that in her victim

895
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 5: impact statement as well. And you know it's just listen

896
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 5: without being so gratuitous and gross about these kinds of things.

897
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 5: I think they are important to talk about respect, the.

898
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 3: Disrespect people know, people need to know that monsters welcome

899
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 3: on it right and they truly do, and we we

900
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 3: bear evidence, are witness to that evidence every single day

901
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 3: they're out there, and it's terrifying.

902
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:53,720
Speaker 5: I don't leave my house.

903
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 9: I know.

904
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 2: Well listen hopefully if you're listening, you are cozy in

905
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 2: your house or car. If you want to join our conversation,

906
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 2: we would love to have you with Joseph Scott Morgan,

907
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 2: our forensic expert here on true crime tonight. We're at

908
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 2: eighty eight three one Crime. Or you can always leave

909
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 2: us a talk back on the iHeartRadio app. It's in

910
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 2: the upper right hand corner. It's a little microphone present

911
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 2: leave a message. He're on the show, and body, what

912
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:20,479
Speaker 2: headlines have you been looking into?

913
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 5: So I'm following the Devil's Den case. So a twenty

914
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,800
Speaker 5: eight year old teacher, Andrew James McCann has been arrested

915
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 5: and he's been charged with capital murder for allegedly stabbing

916
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 5: a couple to death in front of their little daughters

917
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 5: during a random attack at Devil's Den State Park on

918
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 5: July twenty sixth of this year. Just recently, Clinton and

919
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 5: Kristen Brink were fatally stabbed while hiking with their two daughters,

920
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,479
Speaker 5: aged seven and nine, who survived and ran for help.

921
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 5: Thank god. McGann, who had who had a troubled teaching

922
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 5: history but no criminal record to speak of, was arrested

923
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:00,040
Speaker 5: four days later after DNA surveillance. And I would and

924
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 5: this evidence connected him to the crime. Joseph, you been

925
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 5: Have you been following this at all?

926
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 3: Yeah? I have. And actually, my beautiful bride brought it

927
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 3: to my attention. My my wife's a retired teacher, and

928
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 3: she took one look at this guy and she thought,

929
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 3: you know, she brought it to my attention. She was like,

930
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 3: who is this guy teaching with? You know who? And he's,

931
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 3: you know, he's kind of a newly minted teacher. I

932
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 3: think he'd started out inhore pretty young.

933
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, he started in Texas, he went to Oklahoma, and

934
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 5: then he went to Arkansas.

935
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and he My understanding is he had not

936
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 3: started yet his career in Arkansas. That's right. I guess

937
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 3: The big question is what flipped the switch with him? What?

938
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 3: I don't know, because this is horrific. Again, we're talking

939
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 3: about children here in front of children. Who does this? Absolutely?

940
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 3: And so that yeah, So that's that's the extent I've

941
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 3: been following this. I was actually quite relieved when they

942
00:50:56,239 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 3: found him. And I've been adjacent two Devil's Den in

943
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 3: the past. It's a beautiful area and you look, you

944
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 3: just you don't expect an event like this in that area.

945
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 3: It's absolutely mortifying.

946
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, you can't even go hiking anymore. Authorities say that

947
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 5: McGahn did confess to the killings and DNA matched evidence

948
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 5: recovered at the crime scene, so there must have been

949
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 5: something in his car or you know, something to indicate,

950
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,439
Speaker 5: you know, to have some kind of DNA transfer of

951
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 5: you know. I don't have no idea. They haven't even

952
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 5: told us, but he is. He had his arraignment and

953
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 5: I'm sorry. He appeared in court on Friday, August first,

954
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 5: and he was assigned to public defender and his arraignment

955
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 5: is scheduled for August twenty fifth. Now, one thing we

956
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 5: do know about what happened that day is police say

957
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 5: the mom Kristen, ran her daughters to safety before returning

958
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 5: to help her husband. So, I mean, she gets her

959
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 5: husband's getting attacked, right the mom Just imagine this, you guys.

960
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 5: The mom is like, oh my god, my daughters, I've

961
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 5: got to help them. She gets them to safety, tells

962
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 5: them to hide, run, get in the car. I'm not sure,

963
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 5: and then think about how much she must have loved

964
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 5: her husband. She runs to help him and is killed

965
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 5: in the process. I mean, she's a hero.

966
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:29,439
Speaker 2: She's a hero, as are those little girls who ran

967
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 2: away for help and had the wherewithal.

968
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 6: Yeah.

969
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 5: It just you know, I just and of course, and you.

970
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 3: Know they have black bear in that area. You know,

971
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 3: It's what you can almost wrap your mind around saying, oh,

972
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 3: there's a black bear here. You know, something that that

973
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 3: can that's lethal, that can do great harm for you.

974
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 5: That's right.

975
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:50,319
Speaker 3: But yet who expects us from a fellow here?

976
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 5: I don't know.

977
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 2: Later in the show we're going to be talking about

978
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 2: the debate surrounding dark tourism and the infamous Jonestown massacre.

979
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 2: But right now we actually have a talkback two.

980
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:07,320
Speaker 9: Things, well actually three. One is the guy that murdered

981
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,479
Speaker 9: the husband and wife at the Arkansas park. They say

982
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 9: is it was actually hired to be a teacher. He

983
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 9: hadn't taught anybody yet, but he had just moved to

984
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 9: that area from Oklahoma and he was going to be

985
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 9: at school teacher. And the second is did you hear

986
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 9: about the Virginia governor of downs in gasoline? And the

987
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 9: third is did you hear about the baby found in

988
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 9: Tennessee next to a house with four dead relatives? That

989
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 9: body relatives, but the baby was found like a live

990
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 9: out in the street or near the street, and the

991
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 9: relatives are all dead, four of them.

992
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, well, thank you. Obviously two of the three

993
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 2: we touched on tonight, so we're kind of on the

994
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 2: same wavelength. But I have not heard of this official

995
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 2: dousting gasoline body Joseph, Yeah.

996
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 3: I've heard about it. Here's a state rep there in

997
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 3: Virginia and this is I don't think it's politically connected.

998
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 3: I think the alleged perpetrator is uh it was, had

999
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 3: some kind of business interests with this gentleman walks in

1000
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,399
Speaker 3: to an office area and chases him down with a

1001
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:28,399
Speaker 3: bucket of gasoline dowas is the sky in the gasoline,

1002
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 3: and then sets him on fire and exits the scene.

1003
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 3: And the guy was alert, took him to the hospital

1004
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 3: and he's on a burn unit. Now, which this is

1005
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 3: I cannot begin to speak to you how horrific these

1006
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 3: types of injuries are. And anybody that has had a

1007
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 3: loved one that they've ever visited on a burn unit.

1008
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 3: I have. It's ghastly, absolutely ghastly. A long road ahead

1009
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 3: of this guy, A long road ahead of this guy.

1010
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's it's absolutely horrific, absolutely horrific.

1011
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:01,720
Speaker 5: It's one of my big fears, honestly, is a fire

1012
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 5: been drowning in a fire, and just terrified of both

1013
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 5: of them. I just cannot imagine the terror he must

1014
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 5: have been experiencing. And now he's prone to infections, right,

1015
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 5: infections are really bad for people in the burning.

1016
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 3: It yep, excruciating pain. Yeah, yeah, the trade m of

1017
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 3: course is very very brutal.

1018
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 2: That's a very very disturbing case and we can only

1019
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 2: wish this man well and in his recovery. We actually

1020
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 2: are going to turn to one other disturbing case that

1021
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 2: we want to get to and it's a trigger warning

1022
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 2: for people. Forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan of course, is

1023
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 2: with us on True Crime tonight tonight, and yeah, he's

1024
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 2: been following this place, this case very closely. But body,

1025
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 2: can you sort of set the table for anyone who

1026
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 2: doesn't know it.

1027
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean this is a really hard starts to

1028
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 5: the table for Thanks Courtney, thanks for that now. It's terrible.

1029
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 5: So excavations have started at the former Bons of Course

1030
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 5: Mother and Baby Home in Tuam, Ireland. There's been nearly

1031
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 5: eight hundred infant and child remains that were discovered buried

1032
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:11,720
Speaker 5: in a mass grave beneath the child's playground. So between

1033
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 5: nineteen twenty five and nineteen sixty one, so about forty

1034
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:19,359
Speaker 5: almost forty years, seven hundred and ninety six babies and

1035
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 5: young children died at Saint Mary's. And this is a

1036
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 5: home for unmarried mothers and it's run by Catholic nuns.

1037
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 5: Many buried secretly in a disused sewage tank, later uncovered

1038
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 5: by this amateur historian, Catherine Corlis, after years of denial,

1039
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 5: I mean denial after denial, after denial, recent excavations have

1040
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 5: confirmed the presence of remains. So this historian uncovered all

1041
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 5: these death certificates for nearly all of the children, but

1042
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 5: she found no burial records and that sent up a

1043
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 5: red flag for her right and so she discovered this

1044
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 5: mass grave of all these children, in infants, eight hundred

1045
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:00,720
Speaker 5: children at this home. It's terrific.

1046
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 2: This has been sort of a passion piece for you.

1047
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 2: What is going on. What body described is unimaginable.

1048
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really is. And here's another interesting little notes

1049
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 3: I noted with this case is that you know, back

1050
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 3: I think it was in the early seventies, there were

1051
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 3: these two gents that were walking to property and they

1052
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 3: came across skeletal remains at that time. I think that

1053
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 3: they recovered close to I don't want them to speak.

1054
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 3: It seems like the number to me, if I remember correctly,

1055
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,959
Speaker 3: was around twenty and never went any further. Wow, And

1056
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 3: what's fascinating. I was listening or I was reading about

1057
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 3: one of the forensic actors they have over there. First off,

1058
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 3: this excavation that has just started in the whole grand

1059
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 3: scheme of things, it's just started. This thing's probably going

1060
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 3: to go until about twenty twenty eight, that's how fast

1061
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 3: this is. And you have what are referred to as

1062
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 3: co mingled remains. These remains were found in, as you

1063
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:03,439
Speaker 3: guys pointed out, old sewage container. I think it would

1064
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 3: be akin to like a septic tank, but it's much

1065
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 3: larger and it has to have in order to facilitate this.

1066
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 3: You would have had to have had like a hatch

1067
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 3: on it that would be opened goodness and then forgive me.

1068
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 3: But the remains would be dropped through the hatch. And

1069
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 3: this is not just newborns. There are children that were

1070
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 3: up to three years of age. And what he's finding is,

1071
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 3: first off, when you think about babies, very young children

1072
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 3: and up to you know, you can kind of extend

1073
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 3: that out. We don't really our bones don't really completely develop.

1074
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 3: So these are very very fragile remains. And he recounted

1075
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 3: if you'll just think about this for a second of

1076
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 3: recovering an infant's femur and the femur, which in an

1077
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 3: adult it is the largest bone in the body, the

1078
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 3: largest long bone, and the sphemur. To show you how

1079
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 3: delicate these remains are. That they're dealing with length of

1080
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 3: his index finger, that's how delicate these are. These are

1081
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 3: and so he's they're having to fight through all of

1082
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 3: this and it's something that they're really passionate about in Ireland.

1083
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 3: And the really sad thing about this is, well, there's

1084
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 3: many things that are said. Do you know what bonsacre

1085
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 3: actually translates into? And I know this because I vacation

1086
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 3: and I.

1087
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 5: Feel like the French word it is New Orleans or something.

1088
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, there's actually Bonsa Core Bay, which is within

1089
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 3: uh Mobile Bay along the Gulf Coast. It actually means

1090
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 3: save harbor. Oh my god, And that's what's really you know.

1091
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:40,800
Speaker 3: It kind of twists the knife into this thing for me.

1092
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 3: And when I heard about this, it was just shocking.

1093
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 3: I could I couldn't again, I couldn't do the calculus

1094
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 3: here because these cases started back in the twenties and

1095
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 3: they continue to on until like the early sixties. How

1096
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 3: do you allow this to happen? And this wasn't the

1097
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 3: only one of these homes in Ireland. There are others.

1098
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Joseph, and this is a story I

1099
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 2: cannot believe it has not been brought to my attention

1100
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 2: until now.

1101
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 5: Listen, this is true crime tonight.

1102
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 2: If you have any questions about this particular case that's

1103
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 2: been going on in Ireland from the nineteen twenties to sixties,

1104
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 2: give us a call eighted eight through one Crime or

1105
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:23,439
Speaker 2: if you have any burning friends of questions you want

1106
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 2: to ask Joseph Scott Morgan is the one. So is

1107
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 2: there any why to this? Joseph, why this was happening?

1108
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1109
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 5: Will they be able to tell how this happened? Like

1110
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 5: how these children died.

1111
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 3: Will they be able to Yeah, I'm not really sure,

1112
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 3: and I think that we have to back up and understand.

1113
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 3: Many times these young women, some of them were teamed,

1114
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 3: would become pregnant out of wedlock and they would be

1115
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 3: sent away. And we've heard this in America, right, you know,

1116
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 3: we go back in our grandparents' generation. They would say,

1117
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 3: she got pregnant, she was sent away. Okay, Well, they

1118
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 3: would send these these young women to this home. And

1119
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 3: one is things that kind of stands out in the

1120
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 3: narrative here is that they would see women going in

1121
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 3: pregnant and see women coming out not holding a baby.

1122
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 3: And that was kind of eyewitness statements, you know, that

1123
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 3: people had made over the years. And here's another bit

1124
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 3: of a chilling you know, nugget here. If they repeated

1125
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 3: the same behavior got pregnant again, they would then be

1126
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 3: sent to what referred to as the laundries. And these

1127
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 3: young women would it's almost like an indentured servitude. They

1128
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:31,920
Speaker 3: would be sent to work in these laundries where they

1129
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 3: were they would have to do manual labor and you know,

1130
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 3: I don't know, do the labor the laundry for the

1131
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 3: local churches or public service stuff that sort of think

1132
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 3: that's how they would spend their life, you know afterwards.

1133
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 3: Now I don't know how long they had to work

1134
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 3: in these things, but that's that's kind of the makeup,

1135
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 3: you know, of these young women that had made a

1136
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 3: choice in their life and had had these babies, and

1137
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 3: then they had nowhere to turn and the families are

1138
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 3: going to turn them out because it was a very

1139
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 3: you know, kind.

1140
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 5: Of disgrace down upon, right, like it was.

1141
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 3: Really frowned upon. I wonder how many babies were born that.

1142
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 5: Survived that were like adopted out.

1143
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 3: That were adopted out or mad. I don't know if

1144
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 3: the young women were allowed or permitted to leave with

1145
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 3: a child and maybe go somewhere else and live. And

1146
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 3: that again is very very troubling because they's very damaged.

1147
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 5: I have some notes here from some of the research

1148
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 5: we did for the show, and it says, my notes

1149
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 5: say that it housed unmarried pregnant women and their children.

1150
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 5: Unmarried pregnant women would be sent to this home to

1151
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 5: give birth and would be interned for a year to

1152
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 5: do unpaid work, and they were separated from their newborn children,

1153
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:48,000
Speaker 5: who would be raised by the nuns. Until they were adopted.

1154
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:50,840
Speaker 5: So it doesn't seem like these women were allowed to

1155
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:54,080
Speaker 5: keep their children. I mean, at least from these notes.

1156
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, one other things else considering this too, that's kind

1157
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 3: of disturbing. If you know, like if a child is

1158
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 3: born and it's you know, it's really struggling, so they're

1159
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 3: a premium or what we have the medical technology and

1160
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 3: the wherewithal to provide, Well, they had some ability if

1161
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 3: you if a mother has had a premature birth back

1162
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:18,440
Speaker 3: then given the proper care, the child would develop. I wonder,

1163
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 3: I really wonder if a child was struggling upon birth,

1164
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:25,640
Speaker 3: if they just allowed the child to die.

1165
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 5: Oh so not necessarily maybe spending resources on this child too, and.

1166
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 2: They may not have had the Listen, this is not

1167
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 2: even a sympathy thing. They might literally have not had

1168
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 2: any of the resources. We're also talking about. This goes

1169
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:45,760
Speaker 2: back almost one hundred years, so it was a grossly

1170
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:47,360
Speaker 2: different place right.

1171
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 5: In our Hey, you're right, God, nineteen twenties was one

1172
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:52,320
Speaker 5: hundred years ago. I just thought about it.

1173
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, certainly.

1174
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 5: When did that happen?

1175
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:57,760
Speaker 2: But at the same time that nineteen eighties is now

1176
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 2: what fifty years ago, eighties was decady.

1177
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 3: Yes, I got to tell you, I'm not going to

1178
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:05,560
Speaker 3: give them too much grace though, because you're entering in

1179
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 3: well within the parameters of modern medicine. When you're mad

1180
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty one, there's no excuse for this, and

1181
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:14,439
Speaker 3: there's no one to hold to account. I just hope

1182
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 3: that they can tell the stories. Hey, forensic genetic genealogy,

1183
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 3: We're going to find out more about these cases.

1184
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 5: I guarantee that's right. Joseph. Thank you.

1185
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 2: You enlightened us every time with your forensics, and these

1186
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:29,160
Speaker 2: cases that we need to hear about. Jonestown is coming up.

1187
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 2: Questions for you are coming up. Keep it here True

1188
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 2: Crime Tonight.

1189
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 5: Our resident forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan was telling us

1190
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 5: last week about how this private tour company wants to

1191
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 5: open up Jonestown to the public. Courtney, can you give

1192
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:55,840
Speaker 5: us some background on why this is so controversial.

1193
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 2: It's controversial and a lot of it has really been

1194
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 2: news to me. So there was this article in Rolling

1195
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 2: Stone and it was just last month, and what it

1196
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 2: does is it shines a light on the ethics of

1197
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 2: dark tourism because a private company is beginning to offer

1198
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 2: guided tours of the former site of the Jonestown massacre

1199
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 2: and the Jonestown massacre. It was a settlement in Guyana.

1200
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:24,439
Speaker 2: I tried to practice it. I stumbled anyway, Guiana, It's

1201
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 2: I Frey. In nineteen seventy eight, there were more than

1202
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 2: nine hundred individuals who lost their lives in a mass suicide,

1203
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 2: were murdered. So that site has been abandoned until now

1204
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 2: and again now a tourist company wants to start bringing

1205
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:41,440
Speaker 2: people there. Joseph, you brought it to our attention and

1206
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:43,000
Speaker 2: tell us what we should know.

1207
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 3: Well, you know, for me, I have a kind of

1208
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 3: a weird connection to this in since that one of

1209
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 3: the forensic pathologists that mentored me as a very young

1210
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:56,240
Speaker 3: death investigator is a guy named William Eckert. I encourage

1211
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 3: anybody to look him up. And he's kind of like

1212
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 3: one of the giants the old days of forensic pathology,

1213
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:09,200
Speaker 3: and he was involved in the examination of all these remains.

1214
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 3: And he told me the story once of flying in

1215
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 3: over the top of the jungle in a helicopter with

1216
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 3: the doors open. They were two miles out and he

1217
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 3: could smell from that and at a significant altitude. So

1218
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:25,360
Speaker 3: that story always stuck with me and I saw this

1219
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 3: article in Rolling Stone and that's where this comes from.

1220
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,720
Speaker 3: And I was thinking dark tourism, what are they talking

1221
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 3: about doing it? And I had an idea of how

1222
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:36,440
Speaker 3: horrific this thing was. This guy administered We've always heard

1223
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 3: the term don't drink the kool aid. Well, first off, body,

1224
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:40,360
Speaker 3: it wasn't kool aid, was it.

1225
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:41,919
Speaker 5: That's right, it was flavor aid.

1226
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 3: Flavor aid. He wouldn't even spring for the kool aid.

1227
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 3: He wouldn't and they laced it with cyanide. And it

1228
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 3: wasn't just a matter of them poisoning people. People were

1229
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 3: shot too. You know. We had a US representative that

1230
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 3: went down there and a bunch of them were shot

1231
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:59,760
Speaker 3: to them because he came down to inspect what was happening.

1232
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 5: To check it out to make sure it's safe.

1233
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 2: Leo Ryan, Yeah, can you briefly set the table. Like

1234
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 2: I said, I'm very ignorant. Jim Jones, what was he doing?

1235
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 2: Who are the people?

1236
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,400
Speaker 3: And just grossly wanted he had the people's simple is

1237
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 3: what it was called. And they felt he was very paranoid.

1238
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 3: He loved amphetamines and other drugs as well. He kind

1239
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:24,600
Speaker 3: of featured himself as a socialist version of Christ didn't

1240
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 3: actually believe in God, but he would espouse his sing

1241
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:31,920
Speaker 3: in a very preacher like way. Got people really jacked

1242
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:34,720
Speaker 3: up over this where being oppressed. So we're going to

1243
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 3: leave San Francisco, which he had relocated there from Indiana,

1244
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 3: went to South America in this remote country that most

1245
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 3: people have never even heard of, and he creates this

1246
01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 3: compound where they're all going to live in this utopia environment.

1247
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 3: And suddenly, you know, and there's all kinds of horrible

1248
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:58,439
Speaker 3: things going on, like he's requiring that it's hard to say,

1249
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 3: but that the women the compound give themselves over, you know,

1250
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 3: sexually to him and some of the men. A lot

1251
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:08,120
Speaker 3: of these things were going on, child abuse, these sorts

1252
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:10,560
Speaker 3: of things. And when word made it back to the

1253
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 3: US and Leo Ryan showed up, who was a congressman,

1254
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:18,880
Speaker 3: went down to investigate, and he man, when he got

1255
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:21,600
Speaker 3: down there, he was like, man, what the hell was

1256
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:25,000
Speaker 3: going on? Well, they murdered him. They shot him down

1257
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:28,960
Speaker 3: on the rarestrip, Yeah, they sure did. Yeah, they shot him.

1258
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:31,960
Speaker 3: Many people ran off into the jungle. And you talk

1259
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 3: about jungle, do you know who trains there at the

1260
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 3: French Foreign Legion trains in this country for jungle warfare.

1261
01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:43,080
Speaker 3: That's how rugged this place is. And it was a story.

1262
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:45,519
Speaker 3: It was a horror show. So when I saw this article,

1263
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, this company is starting. They it was even

1264
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:53,479
Speaker 3: intimated that they were going to try to facilitate some

1265
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 3: kind of template of the compound and that you would

1266
01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:01,360
Speaker 3: take tours of it and everything. And I don't know,

1267
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 3: it just it struck a chord with me. And yeah,

1268
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:06,720
Speaker 3: I couldn't really under who's going to pay to go

1269
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 3: to this country to do this? I don't know.

1270
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:14,360
Speaker 5: Okay, boll I see we have customer number one. Body

1271
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:17,280
Speaker 5: what you got, give us your thoughts. Listen. I didn't

1272
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 5: realize I was into something called dark tourism, but I

1273
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 5: kind of am into this scenario. I didn't know that's

1274
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 5: what it was called. But I think that these kinds

1275
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 5: of sites are important, you know, like these these are

1276
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 5: historical sites and we need to be reminded of them

1277
01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:34,800
Speaker 5: so these things don't happen again. Like I think of

1278
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:40,160
Speaker 5: Aushwitz and you know, like the Holocaust Museum and you know,

1279
01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:42,000
Speaker 5: things like that. Like one of the things I really

1280
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:44,000
Speaker 5: want to go visit is Chernobyl. You guys, I think

1281
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:46,600
Speaker 5: I told you this. I'm obsessed with Chernobyl. I have

1282
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:49,000
Speaker 5: no idea why, but I am, and I really want

1283
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:50,639
Speaker 5: to go. That's also dark tourism.

1284
01:09:51,280 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 3: I'm in.

1285
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:53,760
Speaker 5: I want to I want to see, I want to

1286
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:56,920
Speaker 5: learn the history, I want to know everything. And I

1287
01:09:56,960 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 5: would absolutely go on one of these tours. Is it

1288
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 5: I don't know, I don't know.

1289
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 3: I mean there's people that want to do tours of

1290
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 3: Fukushima and.

1291
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:05,560
Speaker 5: I would go to Fukushima.

1292
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,720
Speaker 3: Horrible event, but listen, I'm chief amongst centers, y'all. I mean.

1293
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:12,200
Speaker 3: I went to Europe this summer with my family. I

1294
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:14,920
Speaker 3: appeared at the UK Crime Con and we.

1295
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:16,599
Speaker 5: Were I went to UK Crime Con. It's lovely.

1296
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 3: Hey, Yeah, it was a lot of fun and had

1297
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 3: a great time. But you know, while we took a

1298
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:24,240
Speaker 3: trip over to Paris, and while I was there, I

1299
01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 3: went to the Catacombs. Man, that's right, there are thousands

1300
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:31,600
Speaker 3: and thousands of skeletal remains. It was mind blowing. I

1301
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:34,800
Speaker 3: never thought I would see anything like that, but I went,

1302
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:37,439
Speaker 3: and I think that I participated in dark tourism with that.

1303
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:40,440
Speaker 5: You sure did. You're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio,

1304
01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:42,439
Speaker 5: where we talk true crime all the time. I'm body

1305
01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 5: and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and Fred's it's expert

1306
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:47,559
Speaker 5: Joseph Scott Margaret and we're right in the middle of

1307
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:50,639
Speaker 5: talking about Jonestown and dark tourism. What do you think

1308
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:53,200
Speaker 5: about dark tourism? Would you go? Would you go to

1309
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:56,680
Speaker 5: a site where people were killed or committed suicide? Give

1310
01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:58,800
Speaker 5: us a call eight at eight thirty one crime or

1311
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,919
Speaker 5: send us a talk back on the Heart radio app. Courtney,

1312
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:03,400
Speaker 5: would you ever do something like this?

1313
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. As as we're talking, I'm kind

1314
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:08,720
Speaker 2: of I don't know. This line in my head is

1315
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:12,120
Speaker 2: maybe even moving and shifting. Because Joseph you mentioned the Catacombs.

1316
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 2: I was lucky enough to go and there you go.

1317
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:19,400
Speaker 2: It's unbelievable. But I see that as history. I see

1318
01:11:19,479 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 2: going to Jonestown. I don't know the ethical line. I'm

1319
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:25,160
Speaker 2: going to have to help see that as more.

1320
01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:27,800
Speaker 5: What's the difference between history and morbidity?

1321
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:29,920
Speaker 3: I don't know. Hey, look, I got to tell you this.

1322
01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:33,400
Speaker 3: I'm a New Orleanian. That's I consider New Orleans my hometown.

1323
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:35,599
Speaker 3: That's where all my family is. Oh, by the way,

1324
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 3: quick shout out. My family is actually listening to iHeart

1325
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:44,960
Speaker 3: Tonight Live Family High Voodoo one three in New Orleans

1326
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:48,559
Speaker 3: right now to our show there. I got to tell

1327
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:51,200
Speaker 3: you, you know, when I take family members down there that

1328
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:54,280
Speaker 3: are not from New Orleans, peripheral family members, what do

1329
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:55,800
Speaker 3: you know what they want to do other than go

1330
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:58,559
Speaker 3: to the French No, they want to go to the

1331
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:01,600
Speaker 3: graveyard tour. Yes, they want to go to all of

1332
01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:05,760
Speaker 3: the graveyards. Yeah, and I've been there, and the architecture

1333
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:07,680
Speaker 3: is beautiful. You know, you walk through, you can get

1334
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:10,439
Speaker 3: lost in there. It's really something to see. Is that

1335
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:13,439
Speaker 3: dark tourism? I don't I don't know. I mean, I

1336
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:15,960
Speaker 3: mean there are literally people that will go to the

1337
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,920
Speaker 3: graveyards in New Orleans and have picnics, okay, and it's

1338
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:25,639
Speaker 3: it's striking. People want to see Marie Levoe's grave, you knows,

1339
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:27,920
Speaker 3: and and that sort of thing. So yeah, it's it's

1340
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:31,120
Speaker 3: quite an interesting, interesting construct to say the least.

1341
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 2: But then, okay, so that also I've been there too,

1342
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:36,760
Speaker 2: So I don't know. Maybe you know I called you

1343
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:40,040
Speaker 2: out for being passenger number one body, I'll guess the

1344
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:43,240
Speaker 2: number two because I as well have done that in

1345
01:12:43,320 --> 01:12:46,200
Speaker 2: New Orleans. And I also see it as tourism. But

1346
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:49,720
Speaker 2: our fabulous producer taha, he just threw out he's there

1347
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:52,519
Speaker 2: with his hands and signals this is Jeffrey Dahmer tour

1348
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:54,160
Speaker 2: ew Okay, So.

1349
01:12:54,320 --> 01:12:55,559
Speaker 5: Like, is that your line?

1350
01:12:56,640 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 2: What do you think that's a victims family be able

1351
01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:05,400
Speaker 2: to have a say or to benefit financially? Like, where's

1352
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 2: this line?

1353
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:10,320
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean Lizzie Borden's home. You know

1354
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:13,240
Speaker 3: you can go to Massachusetts. How many people people? Yeah,

1355
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 3: Ambdyville and uh, you know, people line up, you know

1356
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:20,120
Speaker 3: to go go visit these locations. I don't know. I mean,

1357
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:23,439
Speaker 3: for me, I justified the catacombs in my mind, I'm

1358
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:26,040
Speaker 3: taking pictures while I'm down here. I teach at Jacksonville

1359
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:29,439
Speaker 3: State where I teach a class about body recovery. It's

1360
01:13:29,439 --> 01:13:32,599
Speaker 3: called clandestine burials, That's what it's called. Well, guess what

1361
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:35,160
Speaker 3: I'm going to do. Those photographs that I took, I'm

1362
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:37,080
Speaker 3: going to show those in my class, and I'm going

1363
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:40,080
Speaker 3: to talk about how these remains are stacked, how they

1364
01:13:40,080 --> 01:13:43,040
Speaker 3: were ordered, the history behind them, all this sort of thing,

1365
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:45,560
Speaker 3: how they recover the remains, because the history is fascinating.

1366
01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:48,679
Speaker 3: But was I just justifying that to say I'm doing

1367
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:52,479
Speaker 3: this for academic purposes or was I I was morbidly curious.

1368
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:56,000
Speaker 3: Well exactly. Look, I'll confess I was morbidly curious. I

1369
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:56,719
Speaker 3: want to see.

1370
01:13:57,120 --> 01:13:59,640
Speaker 2: But then I also do think there is benefit. I

1371
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:02,759
Speaker 2: mean you mentioned, you know, sort of a museum for teaching,

1372
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:06,280
Speaker 2: and way back in the day I taught at usc

1373
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:10,080
Speaker 2: Go Trojan's I taught writing and the topic of our

1374
01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:13,840
Speaker 2: writing class had to do with a history class on

1375
01:14:13,880 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 2: the Holocaust at all the students, so everything that road

1376
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:19,200
Speaker 2: had to do with the Holocaust. We went in Los

1377
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:23,519
Speaker 2: Angeles to the Holocaust Museum. Well you can call it

1378
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:26,799
Speaker 2: gruesome because it is, because that is what happened.

1379
01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 5: But that is what happened at Jonestown. Now what's the different, right, right?

1380
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:33,360
Speaker 5: I don't know, because it's called a museum versus I

1381
01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:36,719
Speaker 5: don't know. He that's a fair plant. But man, maybe

1382
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:38,760
Speaker 5: that is the difference, is that it's treated as a

1383
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:40,960
Speaker 5: museum where the other one is treated as tourists, like

1384
01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:44,479
Speaker 5: an adventure park or something like. Justin Bieber, I hope

1385
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:46,080
Speaker 5: I'm getting this right. I think he did.

1386
01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:50,519
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure when he visited Anne Frank's house, he

1387
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,519
Speaker 2: was like, I think she would have been a believer. Taha,

1388
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:56,040
Speaker 2: fact check this right now if you would, because then

1389
01:14:56,080 --> 01:14:57,240
Speaker 2: I'm going to pull it back of a.

1390
01:14:58,160 --> 01:15:01,759
Speaker 5: But like you can yelp about and Frank's house, right,

1391
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 5: So is that dark tourism or is that history? Or

1392
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:05,760
Speaker 5: is it both? Like I don't know, I don't know

1393
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:08,040
Speaker 5: the line. I want to see it all. Though I

1394
01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:09,920
Speaker 5: want to see it all, I don't. I don't necessarily

1395
01:15:09,960 --> 01:15:11,880
Speaker 5: want to go on the Jeffrey Dhmer tour, but I

1396
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:13,880
Speaker 5: have to. I'm gonna be honest with you. If it

1397
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:18,360
Speaker 5: was free, i'd probably go want it really yeah, oh yeah, and.

1398
01:15:18,439 --> 01:15:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, Joseph, are you joining a body on the Jeffrey

1399
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:21,479
Speaker 2: Dahmer tour.

1400
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:24,240
Speaker 3: Well, I've been to Milwaukee and have spent time at

1401
01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:27,040
Speaker 3: the medical Examiner's office there. Okay, it's part of a

1402
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:29,479
Speaker 3: national study. I actually ate at a restaurant that was

1403
01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:32,400
Speaker 3: not too far away from his apartment complex, and the

1404
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:35,400
Speaker 3: medical examer, the chief medical examiner that did the autopsies

1405
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:38,479
Speaker 3: on these victims, said yeah, that's where Dahmer's apartment is,

1406
01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:42,000
Speaker 3: and they tore down shortly after that. But then you

1407
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:43,840
Speaker 3: go through town and you know he worked at a

1408
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:44,719
Speaker 3: candy factory.

1409
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:44,880
Speaker 6: Right.

1410
01:15:45,360 --> 01:15:47,280
Speaker 3: I love Milwaukee by the way. I love the food,

1411
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:51,600
Speaker 3: the German food in particular. And he worked at this

1412
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:54,519
Speaker 3: candy factory, and there were people that were interested in

1413
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:56,880
Speaker 3: Dahmer that would want to go to the candy factory

1414
01:15:56,880 --> 01:15:57,720
Speaker 3: to see where he were.

1415
01:15:58,120 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 5: See, I'm not the only one. I am not the

1416
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:00,599
Speaker 5: only one.

1417
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:05,880
Speaker 2: This actually was said in twenty thirteen. Justin Bieber said

1418
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:07,760
Speaker 2: of his visit to an Frank's house that it was

1419
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 2: quote truly inspiring to be able to come here. Anne

1420
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:13,759
Speaker 2: was a great girl. Hopefully she would have been a believer.

1421
01:16:14,320 --> 01:16:16,639
Speaker 2: So with that that actually did happen.

1422
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:18,559
Speaker 5: With that, we're going to go to to talkback.

1423
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:19,360
Speaker 3: Hi, ladies.

1424
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:22,680
Speaker 10: This is Liz from Washington, originally from Michigan, wondering if

1425
01:16:22,680 --> 01:16:25,120
Speaker 10: any of people who have been following the case of

1426
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:28,320
Speaker 10: the Walmart stabbing in Traverse City, Michigan, where one man

1427
01:16:28,360 --> 01:16:32,080
Speaker 10: stabbed eleven victims and was taken down by some other

1428
01:16:32,080 --> 01:16:34,040
Speaker 10: people in the store. And there's also a whole lot

1429
01:16:34,040 --> 01:16:35,920
Speaker 10: of talk right now about mental health and how they

1430
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:39,200
Speaker 10: could get him help and it increased his bond just

1431
01:16:39,240 --> 01:16:40,759
Speaker 10: to prevent him from being.

1432
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:43,080
Speaker 7: Back out on the streets. Wondering if you guys have been.

1433
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:46,400
Speaker 5: Following only a little bit. My cousins live in Traverse City.

1434
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:50,160
Speaker 5: I'm from Detroit initially, and my family, my whole family

1435
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 5: actually lives in Michigan. Still, many of them live in

1436
01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:55,240
Speaker 5: Traverse City. So I've only been kind of been following

1437
01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:57,920
Speaker 5: it like perifheally, you know, to make sure they're okay.

1438
01:16:58,320 --> 01:16:59,560
Speaker 5: But I don't really know them a lot about it.

1439
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:03,120
Speaker 5: I seen them video of I guess this ex marine

1440
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:05,280
Speaker 5: or navy guy. I'm not sure. Oh my god, I'm

1441
01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:07,559
Speaker 5: going to get help for that. I don't mean to

1442
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:10,120
Speaker 5: insult anything, but somebody in the military who was in

1443
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:12,400
Speaker 5: the bornom to help take him down in the parking lot.

1444
01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:16,040
Speaker 5: Have you guys seen this video. It's pretty incredible. No, yeah,

1445
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:18,760
Speaker 5: they took him down in the parking lot and it's

1446
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:20,920
Speaker 5: all somebody, of course, had their cell phone out after

1447
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 5: he just stabbed eleven people in the walmart. It's pretty sad.

1448
01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:26,320
Speaker 5: And you know, we definitely have a mental health problem

1449
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 5: in this country. And you know, all the asylums have closed.

1450
01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:31,920
Speaker 5: You know, they treated people pretty terribly in these asylums.

1451
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:34,919
Speaker 5: They were left there to rot, and you know, rightfully,

1452
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:37,160
Speaker 5: so they were shut down. But you know, maybe we

1453
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:40,240
Speaker 5: need to reinvent the system here a little bit and

1454
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 5: get some help, much needed help for our citizens. I

1455
01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:45,400
Speaker 5: don't know, what do you guys think? Well, it's what's

1456
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:46,919
Speaker 5: doing is not working.

1457
01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:50,360
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think I'm most a bottom up restructure.

1458
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:53,800
Speaker 2: But Joseph, are you familiar with this case? I'm only

1459
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:55,120
Speaker 2: also tangentially.

1460
01:17:55,439 --> 01:17:58,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah as well. I mean I've seen it in

1461
01:17:58,120 --> 01:18:00,720
Speaker 3: the news and the horror of it, and listen, it

1462
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:07,240
Speaker 3: doesn't it's not surprising given other mass injury events. I'll

1463
01:18:07,240 --> 01:18:09,040
Speaker 3: put it to you that way. Not all of them

1464
01:18:09,080 --> 01:18:12,840
Speaker 3: are completely lethal, but people are damaged for life after this.

1465
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:16,880
Speaker 3: And I always come back to the victims and the

1466
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 3: big question is and I hate why. I despise the

1467
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:24,000
Speaker 3: word why because you never really get an answer to

1468
01:18:24,120 --> 01:18:28,439
Speaker 3: why in your life period. But what is it that

1469
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:32,800
Speaker 3: set this guy off? And why? There I go with why?

1470
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:35,120
Speaker 3: What was this purpose for being on the street if

1471
01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:38,439
Speaker 3: he is this sick? And I've covered so many of

1472
01:18:38,479 --> 01:18:42,439
Speaker 3: these cases with mass killings and injuries, I always have

1473
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:46,479
Speaker 3: to ask myself what was it about this guy that

1474
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:49,280
Speaker 3: he wasn't getting help? And could he have been in

1475
01:18:49,360 --> 01:18:53,439
Speaker 3: an institution? It costs so much and like you said,

1476
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:55,840
Speaker 3: soyleumns have been shut down, but I think they could

1477
01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:59,000
Speaker 3: recreate the template in some way where it's more humane

1478
01:18:59,240 --> 01:19:02,599
Speaker 3: and people act do get healthy. It ain't happening right now, though.

1479
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:03,320
Speaker 3: I can tell you that.

1480
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:07,479
Speaker 2: There is no so here's to listen, let the greater

1481
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:10,200
Speaker 2: minds prevail, and that we can have a system that

1482
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:12,679
Speaker 2: does help all of us who.

1483
01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:14,920
Speaker 5: Are in need, and everyone we know who is in need.

1484
01:19:15,160 --> 01:19:18,040
Speaker 2: Well listen, Joseph. As always, it is our great pleasure

1485
01:19:18,160 --> 01:19:20,960
Speaker 2: to have you on. Joseph Scott Morgan. You can hear

1486
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:21,519
Speaker 2: him on his.

1487
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:23,720
Speaker 5: Hit hit podcast Bodybags.

1488
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:28,040
Speaker 2: He's featured in Kat's Studios documentaries Galore, and it's been

1489
01:19:28,040 --> 01:19:29,960
Speaker 2: a pleasure to Crime Tonight