WEBVTT - Hysteria & Misunderstanding.  Lanhee Chen Talks to A&G

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<v Speaker 1>Because four hours.

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<v Speaker 2>Simply enough, this is armstrong and getty extra large, cut.

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<v Speaker 3>Jobs, save the government money, signed Americans a check for

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<v Speaker 3>the difference. That's the Trump plan being floated at least,

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<v Speaker 3>But is it realistic? Is it feasible? And might it

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<v Speaker 3>hurt your wallet more than it would help?

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<v Speaker 1>Where he's gone too far? A slim majority using presidential power,

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<v Speaker 1>fifty two percent say he's gone too far there cutting

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<v Speaker 1>federal programs.

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<v Speaker 2>Fifty one percent of Americans say gone too far.

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<v Speaker 3>This is the chainsaw for bureaucracy, turns off chainsaw.

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<v Speaker 2>A variety of opinions and thoughts there having to do

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<v Speaker 2>with domestic policy, budget cutting, bureaucracy, taming, et cetera, which

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<v Speaker 2>is one of the major initiatives going on in the

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<v Speaker 2>Trump administration right now. Who better to discuss this with

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<v Speaker 2>than Lanhi, Chen David and Diane Steffy, fellow in American

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<v Speaker 2>Public Policy studies at the Hoover Institution and the Director

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<v Speaker 2>of Domestic Policy he studies at Stanford University.

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<v Speaker 1>Lanhi, how are you great to be with you? How

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<v Speaker 1>are you just terrific?

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you. Earlier in the show, we were comparing and

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<v Speaker 2>contrasting the democratic reaction to a lot of the cutting

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<v Speaker 2>and restructuring and examining the giant bureaucracy which has been

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<v Speaker 2>essentially any cuts are a horror in a constitutional crisis.

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<v Speaker 2>With Lincoln's statement that we absolutely have the right to

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<v Speaker 2>amend to reconstruct, and you know he didn't say this exposedly,

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<v Speaker 2>but cut or grow government in the way we the

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<v Speaker 2>people see fit.

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<v Speaker 1>It's quite a contrast, it is, And I would just

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<v Speaker 1>say this, I mean, I think there is a fair

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<v Speaker 1>amount of hysteria over some of the activity that we're seeing,

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<v Speaker 1>and the effort I think that's underway by some of

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<v Speaker 1>the media is to try and define some of these

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<v Speaker 1>cuts as existential. We're deeply problematic. So let's just step

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<v Speaker 1>back and take a look at one of them that

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<v Speaker 1>they talk about for now, the IRS. This is one

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<v Speaker 1>of my favorite ones. The IRS has reached record levels

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<v Speaker 1>of staffing in the last couple of years, and they

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<v Speaker 1>have significantly expanded their workforce, so they went from about

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<v Speaker 1>seventy thousand employees to one hundred thousand employees over the

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<v Speaker 1>course of a couple of years. Now, the cuts that

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<v Speaker 1>Doze is talking about sixty eight hundred employees, we're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about sixty eight hundred probationary recent hires that they're looking

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<v Speaker 1>to essentially trim from the IRS bureaucracy. We're talking about

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<v Speaker 1>between six to seven percent of the workforce, and it

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't even account for this significant, as I said, increase

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<v Speaker 1>in the workforce we've seen recently. So people just need

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<v Speaker 1>to look at the facts and try to figure out

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<v Speaker 1>execuly what's going on here, because fundamentally, there is this

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<v Speaker 1>notion that, well, no, we can't cut anything, this is

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<v Speaker 1>going to cause a degradation of service. Look, the service

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<v Speaker 1>the IRS wasn't all that great before. So the notion

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<v Speaker 1>that we have this challenge that's being created because of

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<v Speaker 1>the things that government is doing and things that DOGE

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<v Speaker 1>is doing in particular, it's just not true.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, and the idea that to even aughtit something is

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<v Speaker 2>improper or threatening is just it's it's obscenely backward. One

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<v Speaker 2>of the things Kim Strassel's writing about is how the

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<v Speaker 2>Trump administration is taking a serious look at the agencies

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<v Speaker 2>that Congress created to perform executive functions, Like, well, they

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<v Speaker 2>administer laws, but they're free from the executive branches control.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like Congress created its own executive branch and any

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<v Speaker 2>thoughts on where we are as a country with that,

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<v Speaker 2>and what are the chances of doing something about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's another great question, because you've got a whole

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<v Speaker 1>host of agencies that are they're called independent agencies right there.

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<v Speaker 1>They're created usually they end in a B or a

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<v Speaker 1>C so commissioner board, and these are the organizations that

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<v Speaker 1>essentially are part of the executive branch, but they have

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<v Speaker 1>some independent authority. So they've got, for example, board members

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<v Speaker 1>or commission members who are appointed by a president for

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<v Speaker 1>a set amount of time, confirmed by the Senate, and

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<v Speaker 1>they're supposed to sit for that set amount of time.

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<v Speaker 1>And the idea was, well, you've got some of these

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<v Speaker 1>institutions that are supposed to create some separation from the

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<v Speaker 1>rest of the executive branch. And this doesn't make a

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<v Speaker 1>whole lot of sense though at some level. And so

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<v Speaker 1>what this administration, with the Trump administration, is now trying

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<v Speaker 1>to do is to say, for example, hey, if you,

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<v Speaker 1>as a commission, a supposedly independent commission, issue a new

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<v Speaker 1>regulation something that you're saying people can or cannot do,

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<v Speaker 1>you need to take that regulation and you've got to

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<v Speaker 1>run it through the White House. We've got to know

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<v Speaker 1>what it is that you're doing, even as a quote

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<v Speaker 1>independent agency. I don't think that's unreasonable, right, because the

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<v Speaker 1>independent agency has elements of independence. We understand that because

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<v Speaker 1>they're regulating, let's say, for example, whether a merger can

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<v Speaker 1>go through or not. But a core what the White

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<v Speaker 1>House is saying is if you're going to regulate, we

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<v Speaker 1>have to know about it. And again, this is one

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<v Speaker 1>of those things where there's been a lot of writing

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<v Speaker 1>in the media, a lot of misunderstanding, this notion of

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<v Speaker 1>Trump's trying to take over the entire bureaucracy, when the

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<v Speaker 1>reality is there's certain things here that independent agencies, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>have been doing for a long time where we probably

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<v Speaker 1>do need a little more political oversight. And so, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>people again just got to understand what the real story

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<v Speaker 1>is versus what the media is reporting.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, and we've been plenty harsh about the unchecked growth

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<v Speaker 2>of executive power and how the gigantic executive branches come

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<v Speaker 2>to be. In many ways, it mimics all three branches.

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<v Speaker 2>It writes rules and laws like Congress, then it enforces

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<v Speaker 2>them like the executive branch, I guess, and then decides

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<v Speaker 2>on your fines. And here's the appeals and everything like

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<v Speaker 2>the judicial branch, and so obviously it needs to be

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<v Speaker 2>looked at. And the other aspect of this that has

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<v Speaker 2>never talked about in the media is that the president

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<v Speaker 2>as for instance, there howling that Elon Musk is unelected.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, like.

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<v Speaker 2>President's virtually the only person in the executive branch who

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<v Speaker 2>is elected. But the idea that a huge trunk of

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<v Speaker 2>the executive branch wouldn't be answerable to the voters at all,

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<v Speaker 2>except like you know, three steps down the line. While

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<v Speaker 2>I fear unchecked executive power. If the executive is in charge,

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<v Speaker 2>they can do good things and be rewarded with reelection

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<v Speaker 2>or their party a reelection. But if they do bad things,

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<v Speaker 2>they can be voted out. Right now, if the giant,

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<v Speaker 2>sprawling executive branch does bad things, what the hell do

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<v Speaker 2>I do about it?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, this is the most important thing that people don't realize,

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<v Speaker 1>which is that there is actually a check on what

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<v Speaker 1>the executive branch can do. And that's Congress. Right, If

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<v Speaker 1>Congress actually did its job and was functional as opposed

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<v Speaker 1>to just being a bunch of people running around yelling

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<v Speaker 1>all the time. If Congress actually yeah, if Congress actually

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<v Speaker 1>function the way Congress is supposed to function. That's your

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<v Speaker 1>check on the executive branch, right, that's your check on

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<v Speaker 1>what the executive is doing. They have the oversight power.

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<v Speaker 1>They can have hearings, they can run legislation, they can

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<v Speaker 1>do all sorts of stuff to constrain if they're really

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<v Speaker 1>worried about if Chuck Schumer and Democrats and Hakeem Jeffries

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<v Speaker 1>and all the rest, if they're really worried about what

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<v Speaker 1>the executive branch is doing, If they're worried about what

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<v Speaker 1>those is doing, they have the ability in Congress to

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<v Speaker 1>try and work together with Republicans there to figure out

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<v Speaker 1>a way to conduct oversight. They can conduct oversite on

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<v Speaker 1>their own, by the way, they don't need Republicans to

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<v Speaker 1>do it necessarily. So the idea that there's no check

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<v Speaker 1>on the executive. First of all, you're right, the voters

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<v Speaker 1>can send a check. But more importantly, Congress needs to

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<v Speaker 1>do its job, and Congress has completely seated the playing

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<v Speaker 1>field in a lot of ways to the executive. This

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<v Speaker 1>is not a Trump problem. That's happened during the Biden administration.

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<v Speaker 1>Has happened during Obama. That the Congress has just gotten

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<v Speaker 1>less and less willing to do its job, and that's.

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<v Speaker 2>Probably is it just that if they're not on the

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<v Speaker 2>record having done anything, they can't be blamed for anything

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<v Speaker 2>going wrong. Where does this cowardice, laziness, whatever it is

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<v Speaker 2>come from.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, part of it's that the incentives for members of

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<v Speaker 1>Congress are really different now than they were before. You know.

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<v Speaker 1>Now it's all about how many likes can I get

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<v Speaker 1>on social media, how can I generate a following on

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<v Speaker 1>social media? How can I do all of that, as

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<v Speaker 1>opposed to you know, where I think there were members

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<v Speaker 1>of Congress that did the hard work of actually trying

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<v Speaker 1>to get things done. You know, I think it's been

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<v Speaker 1>a few decades since we've really seen a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>that activity. But I think part of it is the

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<v Speaker 1>incentive structure has changed, and then part of it is,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, unfortunately, I do think we're electing in a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of places, more extreme members of Congress who are

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<v Speaker 1>really more interested in advancing ideology than actually passing legislation

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<v Speaker 1>and getting things done. Now, some of that's reflection of

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<v Speaker 1>us as the American people, becoming more more polarized and

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<v Speaker 1>more ideological in some ways, But overall, I do think

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<v Speaker 1>that the composition of gods, the nature of Congress who

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<v Speaker 1>were sending to Congress. All of these things have impacted,

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<v Speaker 1>quite frankly, Congress's ability to do its job and congress

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<v Speaker 1>members of Congress's willingness to do their job.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, that's a big and that's a big and we

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<v Speaker 2>don't really have time to talk about how to reform

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<v Speaker 2>our entire primary processing and the rest of it. And

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<v Speaker 2>so for folks just tuning in especially, we've been talking

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<v Speaker 2>about and a lot of this has gone on unnoticed

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<v Speaker 2>or untalked about by many people in the media in

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<v Speaker 2>the midst of Trump cutting you know, transgender polo matches

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<v Speaker 2>for Dubai or whatever the heck, a lot of the

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<v Speaker 2>serious looking at and rejiggering the administrative state, all these

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<v Speaker 2>commissions and boards and making everybody go through all the

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<v Speaker 2>rules and see if any of the rules violate the Constitution,

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<v Speaker 2>exceed legislative power, go beyond the clear words of the

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<v Speaker 2>Congressional Statute, harm the national interest, a stripping down of

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<v Speaker 2>the gigantic administrative state, and those of us who've been

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<v Speaker 2>praying for that sort of thing are super excited. But

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<v Speaker 2>as I said before the break lawn, he can we

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<v Speaker 2>help understand, help people understand rather how that helps their lives,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, in the everywhere America.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, look, we want an effective and efficient government, right

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<v Speaker 1>and obviously everyone wants government to do the things that's

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<v Speaker 1>supposed to do. But when you have I think there's

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of issues. One is when you have government

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<v Speaker 1>that's grown so big and particularly has so many people

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<v Speaker 1>that it becomes kind of a constituency in and of itself, right,

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<v Speaker 1>that it becomes about defending the institution, which really means

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<v Speaker 1>making sure that nothing ever changes. What you end up with, unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 1>is the situation where government doesn't have to improve. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>let's just compare that to a minute to let's just

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<v Speaker 1>think about a business. Right. If you think about a business,

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<v Speaker 1>the reason why businesses improved, really, the only reason why

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<v Speaker 1>they improve is because of competition. And you've got a

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<v Speaker 1>marketplace where we've got different businesses competing for people's support

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<v Speaker 1>and for people's business, and that ends up forcing them

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<v Speaker 1>to improve and to change and to evolve. Think about

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<v Speaker 1>government for a minute. What forces government to change and

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<v Speaker 1>evolve and get better. The answer is nothing on a

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<v Speaker 1>regular basis unless you apply some sort of pressure, There

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<v Speaker 1>is no competition. There's no other government out there that's

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<v Speaker 1>going to do national security, that's going to do processing

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure that we have clean air and clean water.

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<v Speaker 1>That you don't have that unless you apply some political

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<v Speaker 1>pressure on government to do better. And that is fundamentally

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<v Speaker 1>why we need to think about some of these changes

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<v Speaker 1>that are going on. You are some of them unorthodox,

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<v Speaker 1>are some of them going to raise eyebrows, Sure, but fundamentally,

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<v Speaker 1>the only way government gets better is if you apply

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<v Speaker 1>some pressure on it to be more efficient and more effective.

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<v Speaker 1>And by the way, here's another thing, Joe, that really

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<v Speaker 1>drives me nuts is transparency. If you look at, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>in California where I'm sitting, the lack of transparency we

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<v Speaker 1>have into what government is doing and spending money on

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<v Speaker 1>is remarkable. And at the federal level we've got some

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<v Speaker 1>similar issues. It's not as bad as it is in California,

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<v Speaker 1>but why can't we, as the people who fund government,

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<v Speaker 1>have a better idea of what government's spending our money on.

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<v Speaker 1>This is something that's always drove me. That's is why

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<v Speaker 1>I ran for Controller several years ago. It's why I

0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.559
<v Speaker 1>continue to believe we've got to push this transparency message

0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.080
<v Speaker 1>because if we don't know what government is doing, it

0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:31.000
<v Speaker 1>can ever get better. We can't ever make it do

0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.040
<v Speaker 1>the things that's supposed to do, and instead it ends

0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.720
<v Speaker 1>up doing things that after the fact we read about it,

0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.680
<v Speaker 1>we're like, what our money's been going to? What? Because

0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.240
<v Speaker 1>no one was able to see along the way where

0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:43.000
<v Speaker 1>all that money was going. So anyway, I'll get off

0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.559
<v Speaker 1>my soapbox now, but I really think transparency is hugely important.

0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:50.440
<v Speaker 2>Well so, and how that lands on main Street though

0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:53.520
<v Speaker 2>is number one. We're not being stolen from and our

0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.439
<v Speaker 2>tax money merely distributed to cronies. That is what I

0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.320
<v Speaker 2>would like very much. But secondly, wouldn't we see less

0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:06.640
<v Speaker 2>regulation therefore more efficient economic growth and change and that

0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.400
<v Speaker 2>sort of thing and rising wages? I just think I

0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:12.400
<v Speaker 2>think scaling back the administrative state would have a specific

0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.120
<v Speaker 2>material benefit to average Americans wherever they are.

0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:19.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, I mean, look aside from people getting better

0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:22.520
<v Speaker 1>service and having a government that's more responsive. You're right,

0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:24.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean not to get too wonky about this, but

0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.880
<v Speaker 1>there is always this worry about government crowding out the

0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:31.000
<v Speaker 1>private sector, and what that means is that the government

0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:34.600
<v Speaker 1>becomes so big that it starts to make it difficult

0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.160
<v Speaker 1>for you know, private entrepreneurs and small business owners to

0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:41.440
<v Speaker 1>do what they're doing. And the more debt we take on,

0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:44.080
<v Speaker 1>the more people are going to have to pay in

0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.160
<v Speaker 1>taxes to pay off that debt. And why we why

0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:48.920
<v Speaker 1>do we carry debt? We carry debt to have a

0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.880
<v Speaker 1>bigger government. And so yeah, there is a real impact

0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.840
<v Speaker 1>for people on main street, and that is that if

0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.000
<v Speaker 1>government gets bigger, taxes go up and people pay more

0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:00.040
<v Speaker 1>because we have to, We have to pay more to

0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:03.560
<v Speaker 1>support the mechanism of government that's been created. So there

0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.520
<v Speaker 1>is a direct effect on our pocketbooks and something that

0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:07.640
<v Speaker 1>the people need to be aware of.

0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:12.360
<v Speaker 2>And just you know, a personal example. I've been very fortunate,

0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:14.079
<v Speaker 2>Jack and I have done well in this business. I'm

0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:20.480
<v Speaker 2>reasonably financially comfortable. But my taxes are breathtaking. And if

0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:23.280
<v Speaker 2>I were not paying those taxes like that, It's not

0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:25.240
<v Speaker 2>like I would go out and buy a yacht. I

0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:30.520
<v Speaker 2>would love to invest in smart people with great ideas.

0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:33.200
<v Speaker 2>That's what I would do if I was not spending

0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:36.480
<v Speaker 2>X amount of money on taxes and help them grow

0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:38.560
<v Speaker 2>their businesses and hire a bunch of people and to

0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:40.760
<v Speaker 2>get start an insurance plan and the rest of it.

0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.840
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, the idea that government crowds out free enterprise

0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:50.080
<v Speaker 2>and private enterprises is absolutely true. So Alanihi, we appreciate

0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.840
<v Speaker 2>the time and thoughts anything else on what the Trump

0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:58.240
<v Speaker 2>administration is doing domestically that's got you excited or you're

0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:00.280
<v Speaker 2>feeling really good about Joe.

0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:02.720
<v Speaker 1>I mean, look, I think the some of the stuff

0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.640
<v Speaker 1>that the doge is doing in terms of right sizing government,

0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.400
<v Speaker 1>I think that's long overdue, quite frankly. But what I

0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.240
<v Speaker 1>would also say is we've got a president. I mean,

0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:13.200
<v Speaker 1>whether you like what he's doing or not, he's doing

0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.840
<v Speaker 1>something okay, and I think that that is fundamentally what

0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:20.680
<v Speaker 1>in many ways in our country, we feel like we've

0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:23.120
<v Speaker 1>been lacking this. We've been lacking this kind of leadership

0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.600
<v Speaker 1>and direction. And we can have a real debate about

0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:27.640
<v Speaker 1>whether all of these things are right or wrong, whether

0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:29.880
<v Speaker 1>we like everything that's happening, whether we think the direction

0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:31.800
<v Speaker 1>that's that the US is taking around the world is

0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:36.000
<v Speaker 1>the right one. But fundamentally, we have an action oriented

0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.760
<v Speaker 1>executive branch and an action oriented government, and maybe we

0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.560
<v Speaker 1>can kind of wake everyone up and sort of say, listen,

0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:44.280
<v Speaker 1>there's some things that have to get done here, and

0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.880
<v Speaker 1>there's some ways in which we need to push forward

0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:50.600
<v Speaker 1>to improve our country. And I just think that we

0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:52.400
<v Speaker 1>can have a real debate over these things and this

0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.320
<v Speaker 1>level of activity and action that is truly exciting to me.

0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:57.920
<v Speaker 1>And you know, let's see where it goes.

0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.120
<v Speaker 2>Lonhe Chen of the Hoover and Institution, Stanford University, Lone,

0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.720
<v Speaker 2>He's always a pleasure. Thanks so much for the time.

0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:06.160
<v Speaker 1>Yep, great to be with you. Thank you.

0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:09.920
<v Speaker 2>Likewise, thanks and to Chuck Schumer and those who have

0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:12.680
<v Speaker 2>been denigrating the Supreme Court and talking about how it's

0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:16.720
<v Speaker 2>illegitimate and the rest of it. The plan is all

0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:21.320
<v Speaker 2>the stuff we've been talking about to really look at

0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:27.440
<v Speaker 2>the foundations of the giant, obese Washington Colossus and dragged

0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:33.640
<v Speaker 2>to the Supreme Court. Questions like these commissions and boards

0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:37.880
<v Speaker 2>and departments of since they're no longer doing what Congress

0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:39.680
<v Speaker 2>told them to do and they're not accountable to the

0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:43.240
<v Speaker 2>executive agent, the executive branch, can we end them or

0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:48.640
<v Speaker 2>how can we trim them and restructure them? And if

0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:53.120
<v Speaker 2>it runs a foul of any constitutional principles we have,

0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.520
<v Speaker 2>thank God and Trump Frankly, we have a lot of

0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:04.080
<v Speaker 2>constitutionalist judges who are very, very protective of the bones

0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:06.520
<v Speaker 2>of the Constitution, the original intents of the Constitution. So

0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.719
<v Speaker 2>I think it's the perfect circumstance. We've got an agent

0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:12.560
<v Speaker 2>of change and agents of stability that are going to

0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:14.719
<v Speaker 2>work together to make the government better for all of us.

0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:15.639
<v Speaker 2>Hey la, hey la.

0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.240
<v Speaker 1>I love it extra large