WEBVTT - Anneliese Michel 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:07.400 You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.160 Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.120 are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.680 and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.280 This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.160 for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:31.560 Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rascha Pacerreiro 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:32.760 and I'm. 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:35.960 Evett Genteelay, and today we're talking about the case of 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:39.559 Annalise Michelle. That's a name you might not know, but 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:42.960 it's a case you probably do know a lot about. Yes, 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:47.519 this is a case involving a real life exorcism. And 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:51.360 while it took place after the infamous movie The Exorcist, 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.400 which I never saw because I'm a big scaredy cat, 0:00:54.880 --> 0:01:00.800 it inspired three documentary films, The Exorcism of Emily Rose, Requiem, 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:05.680 and Honalise The Exorcist Tapes, and as that last title implies, 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:11.560 these exorcism sessions were actually recorded. There is audio of 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.240 the priests as they were trying to drive out the 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:19.880 evil spirits that they believed were possessing Analise Michelle and 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:25.560 full transparency here. I know little to nothing about exorcisms, 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:30.880 especially being agnostic, so looking at this as a case 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:35.240 is just feels so far removed from reality for me personally. 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.759 And we will analyze some of that today as we 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:43.160 talk with Father Carlos Martin's director of the Treasures of 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:48.880 the Church ministry and an official exorcist. We'll talk about 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.680 what really happened to Analise Michelle and how this exorcism 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.320 led to her death. But first our producer Trevor is 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:58.400 going to walk us through today's case. 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:02.960 There are many people who laugh at the notion of 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:06.639 demonic possession or even the reality itself, but the Catholic 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:10.919 Church does teach that evil's reality and it is personified 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:16.239 in the person of the devil. 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:28.079 Annalise Michelle was a twenty three year old woman from 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:32.760 Germany who died after a series of failed priestlet exorcisms 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.440 in nineteen seventy six. She was born in libel Feing, 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:41.520 Bavaria in West Germany to a devout Catholic family. Supposedly, 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:44.760 Annalise and her sisters were not allowed to play outside 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:48.080 with other children, and instead spent most of their time 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:52.840 praying inside. At the age of sixteen, Annalise experienced her 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:56.440 first seizure. The next year, she had yet another and 0:02:56.520 --> 0:03:00.560 was diagnosed with temporal lobe epilepsy, a chronic nerve system 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:04.520 disorder in which recurrent seizures take place, usually lasting a 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:08.320 couple of minutes. Shortly after this, she was diagnosed with 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:12.240 depression and psychosis and was treated at a psychiatric facility. 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:16.360 At the facility, she had another seizure and was prescribed 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:20.880 the anti convulsant dilantin, after which she began describing seeing 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:25.720 quote devil faces frequently. However, the medications did not help 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:30.240 with her seizures or her strange visions. In nineteen seventy three, 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:33.560 she went to the University of Wurtzburg, where her classmates 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:38.240 described her as quote withdrawn and very religious. Some classmates 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:41.040 described one occasion where they found her in a trance 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:45.520 like state with her arms outstretched dramatically. But she also 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:49.640 began hearing more menacing voices telling her she was damned 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:53.160 and that she would quote rotten Hell. Around this time, 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:56.000 she said someone else was manipulating her and that her 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.680 will was not her own. She also became intolerant of 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:04.040 cruise fixes and other sacred Christian objects and places. She 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:06.920 told a family friend that she was unable to enter 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:10.480 a Christian shrine during a religious pilgrimage the two took 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.800 together to Italy, and that the soil around the place 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.240 quote burned like fire when she attempted to walk on it. 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:21.760 The friend concluded that Annalise was suffering from demonic possession. 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.240 Annalise and her family were convinced of this as well, 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:29.200 and at first priests refused her pleas for an exorcism, 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:34.119 recommending that she instead continue her psychiatric treatment. They also 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:37.320 said they needed the bishop's permission to perform an exorcism, 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:42.240 but her condition worsened, and in September of nineteen seventy five, 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:47.120 Bishop Joseph Stongel granted Father ernst Alt and Father Arnold 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:51.920 Wrens permission to perform an exorcism on Annalise, but they 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:55.720 were ordered to total secrecy. Over the next ten months, 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.280 the two priests performed sixty seven exorcism sessions at the 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.160 rate of about two twice a week. Each lasted about 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:05.400 four hours, and forty two of these sessions were recorded. 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.320 Annalise had to be tied down for many of the 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:10.920 sessions as she tried to bite and harm the men. 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.520 In the last few months of the exorcisms, she refused 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:19.440 food and rapidly lost weight. On June thirtieth, nineteen seventy six, 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:24.279 Father Wrens performed the final exorcism. By now she was 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:28.000 severely emaciated, had pneumonia, and was running a high fever. 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:32.920 Her final words to the priest were quote request for absolution, 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:37.880 end quote, but her final words to her mother were quote, mother, 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:44.120 I'm afraid. On July first, nineteen seventy six, Annalise Michel died. 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:49.480 The cause of death was malnutrition and dehydration. Father Alt 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:53.520 and Father Wrens believed her exorcism was successful because she 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.760 died after the demons were driven out of her. Later 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:00.800 that year, the priests and parents were charged with negligent homicide. 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:05.120 The trial was a massive media sensation, and the priests 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:10.400 were eventually convicted, but only given suspended prison sentences. And so, 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:14.960 what happened to Annalise Michelle? Who was responsible for her death? 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.280 And what does the story tell us about the complicated 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:22.320 intersection between religious and medical approaches to mental illness. 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:28.960 So today we are lucky to be joined by an 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:31.320 expert in the field of exorcism. 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:32.280 You may have. 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:36.120 Recently heard his voice on the new iHeartRadio podcast that 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:42.080 Exorcist Files with Us. Now is Father Carlos Martins, director 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.839 of the Treasure of the Church Ministry and an official 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:51.440 exorcist on two Continents. Welcome Father Martins to Facing Evil. 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:54.400 Thank you very much. It is a pleasure to be 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:55.039 here with you. 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:57.520 We're honored to have you here, Father Martins. 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:02.760 Yes, so I just have to say I'm Catholic. I've 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:05.360 been married for sixteen years, and my husband and I 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:09.040 have an amazing father, father Arman, in our life. And 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:13.720 I remember asking him the question when did he get 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:17.840 that calling, you know, to be a part of the ministry, 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:20.320 And he told me, he said, Yvette, it was when 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:24.400 I was probably seven or eight that I just knew. So, 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:27.720 can I ask you when did you first get your 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:31.160 calling to be involved with the ministry work that you 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.720 do and eventually do exorcisms. 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:37.800 Yeah, well, I guess for me, I was not as 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:42.120 young as your priest was. I'm a convert from atheism, 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:46.000 so I converted in my twenties. I was a college 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:51.400 student at the time, and after that conversion occurred, I 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.360 got the call to the priesthood about seven years later. 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.720 So in two thousand and three, I was on a 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:02.600 retreat and I heard the proverbial voice of God and 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:05.520 he said, Carlos, joined the priesthood. I promised to make 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.640 you very happy, and so I did and was ordained 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:12.480 a priest about six years later. And when I was 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:17.480 assigned to the first church that I was placed in, 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:22.000 the priests that were on staff there were the diocesan exorcists, 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:26.920 and they were just so busy with oppression and possession 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:31.960 cases with individuals that when something of a lesser nature 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:37.640 would come in, like the infestation of a house, demonic 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:42.319 phenomena happening within a place, they just turned to me 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:46.240 and said, Deacon, go get rid of the devil. So 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.440 I didn't have any training at that point, and so 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.760 I would not advise this to be the normal course 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:57.280 of affairs for someone to be thrown in a situation, 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:01.360 but that was my situation. And what I knew, though, 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:05.320 is that if the devil is in a place, then 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:08.440 there's going to be signs that reveal that presence. So 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:11.920 there's going to be proof, if you will, and if 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:14.800 the devil is in a place, and we can determine 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.320 that through proof, then he's there for a reason. In 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.840 other words, a door was opened to him, and so 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.320 that door has to be closed. What I preach on 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:29.760 all the time, what I've developed some notoriety for saying, 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:34.360 is this, the job of the exorcist is not to 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:38.400 cast out the devil. The job of the exorcist is 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:43.120 to find out why is the devil there? What rights 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:48.880 has he obtained, And it's the exorcist job to then, knowing, 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:53.080 once those rights are known, to work with the victim 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:57.840 to rescind those rights. Once the rights are rescinded, then 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.480 the devil must leave. Then the devil ca can be 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.840 cast out. But until that is done, the devil has 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:08.080 every right to stay. He's obtained the rights to stay. 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:15.000 So most people in their mind understand exorcism falsely to 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:19.000 be an enterprise where on the one side you have 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:22.120 a demon or demons, and on the other side you 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:24.520 have a priest and they kind of do battle with 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.599 one another, and whoever's the most powerful wins. And that 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:31.840 is nowhere near what the case is. One has to 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:35.680 find out which was the doorway by which the devil 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.760 entered where he is. Then that doorway has to be 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.320 closed and then he can be evicted. 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:47.160 So, Father Martins, I'll be quite honest. I was not 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:52.560 raised in the Catholic Church. However, I am born and 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:58.440 raised in Honolulu, and I respect the Hawaiian culture more 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:00.959 than you can possibly know. And so when I think 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:05.760 of things like exorcisms or what you do, I think 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:11.080 of our Hawaiian kahunas or our Hawaiian kahu's who will 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:15.080 go into homes and bless homes, or if something sad 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:18.559 has happened or anything like that, they go and they 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:23.080 just give O pome wit cut ye blessings. But with 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.600 all of that being said, I would love to know more, 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.640 what's the history of exorcism? Does it go as far 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:33.160 back as when the Bible was first written? I would 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:34.640 love to know the history of it. 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:41.000 Heavens no, it far predates that the Romans practiced it 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.560 before them, The Greeks practiced it, certainly the Jews did. 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:50.800 But in every historical culture, in every culture that history 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:55.520 can study, there appears to be the process of exorcism. 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.920 There appear to be people whose task it is or 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:06.720 who are willing to take on a foreign spirit manifested 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:11.000 as a different, a radically different personality that is all 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:15.920 of a sudden inhabiting somebody who is known, and that 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:21.640 typically that inhabitation is marked by a certain number of characteristics, 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.800 which all of all of which are are out of 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:30.560 the character of the person. So a particular violence, an 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:37.360 aversion to any goodness, to truth, to beauty to goodness, 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:44.760 a knowledge of hidden things, a knowledge of occult realities 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.360 or the occult, the meaning of occult being the most 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.640 broad meeting meaning that which is hidden, that that which 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:55.520 they couldn't possibly know. And included with that would be 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:59.360 a speaking of a language or language, is that they 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:03.840 were never taught. So there clearly is something different that 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.400 is not from the individual himself or herself that is 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:12.000 now present. A foreign spirit is now present. And so 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.400 there are different ways in which different cultures, and I 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:19.480 mean all of them, Japanese culture, Chinese culture, the different 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:22.840 African cultures and so forth, that they would deal with that. 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.440 I mean you mentioned your own. In the Hawaiian culture, 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:29.560 you have exactly so you have a copuona that would 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:34.000 come over and would conduct some ritual, the intention of 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:37.120 which would be to clean the place, to clean someone 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:42.560 wary place. Right, So that is ingrained in the human 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:47.120 nature that hey, we've we have these enemies that are 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:51.000 not physical, they're spiritual, and yet we we want to 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:54.720 combat them. So this drama is very much a part 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:56.920 of the human story. It's it's been there from the 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:58.199 beginning and it continues. 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:21.480 You know, Father, you were telling us the story of 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.320 you know, earlier, of how you got into the ministry, 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:27.240 and you were kind of you know, you were sent 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:31.480 to this house from that point on up until now 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.840 where you're at today. Did you or do you still 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:38.200 have to go through any type of training when you 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.200 do these different types of you know, exorcisms. 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:47.080 Well, I attend conferences regularly, but it's not really for 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:52.600 the sake of training. I'm in fact a trainer of exorcists. Now, okay, 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:57.800 Now that being said, it's always possible to learn something 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.239 new or to gain an insight from your colleagues, especially 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.120 when you have colleagues as good as I do. I 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:08.040 really respect the other exorcists with whom I work or 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:13.360 with whom I'm friends. They're smart individuals, they have great insights, 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:17.400 they're hard working, and they're committed people who love the 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:21.920 Lord and equally they love the victims, the people who 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.800 are ensnared. So those people need to be loved, and 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:29.800 we're doing this as an effort to rescue them and 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.920 to aid them. And these people have been tormented and tortured, 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:38.680 and often people regard them and sometimes even their own 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:42.800 family members, as people who are crazy, who are daft, 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:46.840 who shouldn't be believed because they're just not connected with reality. 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:52.720 And so mental illness is absolutely a thing. And I'm 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:57.880 not competent to diagnose mental illness. I'm not a psychiatrist 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:04.120 or a psychologist or a dog. However, I can diagnose 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:09.240 the presence of evil, and they're going to be very 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:15.200 different manifestations than a physical or mental illness. That being said, 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:20.040 That being said, it is not an either or situation. 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:26.600 One can have mental illness and can be demonically oppressed. 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:32.480 So because someone is diagnosed with mental illness, it does 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:35.480 not mean that, oh, because of that, the devil's not 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.760 interested in them. That's in fact, he's going to be 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:42.960 more interested in them because like an animal that is sick, 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.560 just as the pack of lions goes after that animal, 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:50.760 why because that animal is the easiest to catch. The 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:55.120 animals already wounded. So the animal is already a target 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:59.760 by that fact, so that love of the individual is 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:03.600 what gives the motive and all of the other things 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.680 that are needed to the exorcists the patients for example, 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:11.399 because sometimes the process of gathering information and making a 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:17.159 diagnosis is painstaking. It's not a quick thing. It's not 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:21.960 an effort of kind of telepathy, you know, with just 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.520 through a straight mental knowledge. Okay, eye into it. The 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.760 devil is in front of me, not at all. There 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:33.040 have to be signs. Those signs are objective that anybody 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:37.640 with a rational mind will have to conclude that nothing 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:41.080 in the natural realm could cause this. And they are 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:44.439 specific criteria that we follow. 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.360 So, Father Martins, can you take us through what actually 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.359 goes into an exorcism? How does it work? 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.560 So maybe let's take maybe half a step back. So 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.679 rather than starting with the actual exorcism, what do we 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.800 need to establish so that we know the presence of 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:09.399 a demon is there? And the Church identifies three classical 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:13.760 criteria that point to a reality that is beyond the 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.040 realm of nature. We call it preter nature, which literally 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:22.600 means in Latin outside the natural. One is knowledge of 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:26.880 the hidden, so within the victim, within the person who 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:30.919 is being diagnosed, a knowledge of facts that he or 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:35.520 she could not possibly know, such as, for example, if 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:39.360 that person all of a sudden started to recite facts 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:44.800 of your life, what happened on your eleventh birthday, conversation 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.440 that you had with your best friend last night in Seattle, 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:52.800 Washington before you flew to wherever you are here. So 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:57.360 there's no way in the natural realm that this individual 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:02.440 on the spot could come up with that knowledge. A Secondly, 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:08.760 the facility, the ability to speak in foreign languages with ease. 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:15.919 We're talking about speaking with facility, with perfect grammar, the 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:23.800 ability to answer and to ask questions. Thirdly, is superhuman strength, 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:30.120 strength that is beyond the ability of the natural and 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:35.080 anything else that might be related to that. So, for example, 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:41.960 something we might call possessed gravity. Whereas a petite individual 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.600 such as whom we're going to talk about, Annalise Michelle, 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.280 who weighed somewhere in the neighborhood of maybe one hundred 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:53.040 and thirty one hundred and forty pounds that her stout 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:58.360 boyfriend at one point and a priest could not lift her. 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:02.600 They couldn't budget her. So there was all of a 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:08.200 sudden a weight to her body that was absolutely extraordinary. 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:13.480 So we're talking about signs that are impossible in nature. 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.960 There have to be signs that the natural realm cannot 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:18.639 account for. 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:23.399 In the case of Annali's Michelle, obviously we know that 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.240 you know a lot about it. Can you tell us 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:32.120 what you think actually happened there as far as the facts. 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:34.760 Well, I think so. First of all, what I will 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:42.159 say is Annalise Michelle her possession was very, very unique 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:46.000 in the sense that her circumstances point to a particular 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:51.320 reality whereby God was asking her to take on a 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:56.639 suffering vicariously, a suffering for the sake of others, for 0:20:56.680 --> 0:21:00.600 the benefit of others. To phrase it in in kind 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:05.119 of classical Catholic language, she was being asked to be 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.280 a victim's soul. She's not the only one in history 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:13.280 that has had this. So we have a Canoni saint, 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:19.480 Saint Mary of Jesus Crucified, who was a Palestinian nun. 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:24.399 She was born in Bethlehem. She is called a holy demoniac. 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:29.080 She was possessed not because of a particular sin that 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:34.280 she had done a particular action, but she was possessed 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:39.040 for the sake of undergoing a suffering that would benefit 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:43.800 the Universal Church to benefit others. And the proof of 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.840 it is in the fact is that the demons didn't 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:50.560 want to be inside her. The demons described as the 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:54.359 one whom we serve, right, they never want to name God. 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:56.880 They don't even want to say the word, and they 0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:00.719 absolutely will never say Jesus Christ. They will refer to 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.359 the one whom you serve, or the carpenter from Nazareth 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:08.840 or something like that. With regard to bless Saint Mary 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:14.720 of Jesus. Crucified the demons over and over repeated that 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:17.680 they wanted to leave, but the One whom you serve 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:22.000 will not let me. The same thing is in Analie's Michelle. 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:26.040 The demons at first talked about them bringing her to hell. 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:31.240 They talked about them having a plan for her. They enjoy, 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:36.520 they love torturing her, and they would brag about yesterday, 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:39.359 we made her do this for three hours, in other words, 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:45.520 chasing her tail, going kind of on a nervous wild 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:48.960 goose chase within her room. So she's pacing the room 0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:52.600 for hours with horrendous anxiety. They would brag about this, 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:58.240 But as the exorcisms went on, that changed, so yes, 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:04.760 Annalie's Michelle had symptoms that were consistent with seizures, and 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:07.920 this is what kind of began her medical treatment. And 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:11.200 that's what began her parents taking her to the doctor, 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:15.399 first the family doctor, and then a neurologist. And she 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:20.800 saw several neurologists, and she had at least seven EEGs 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:25.159 in her life. All of them except one, proved to 0:23:25.200 --> 0:23:30.280 be normal. One showed a slight abnormality in the left 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:34.960 lobe that might be consistent with normalcy, it might not be. 0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:40.720 In other words, it was inconclusive. The diagnosis of epilepsy 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:44.520 was never one that was hard and fast. The doctor 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:47.639 at her trial who insisted that that's what she had, 0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:52.199 he never saw her, so he's going by statements of 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:56.439 other people. He's not going by direct, firsthand knowledge. So 0:23:56.840 --> 0:24:01.200 whether or not Annelie's Michelle had epileptie, I don't know. 0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:07.359 I can't tell you. Her symptoms were consistent initially with seizures, 0:24:08.000 --> 0:24:12.000 but that was quickly I'm not going to say replaced. 0:24:12.119 --> 0:24:16.879 But alongside those things that the seizures themselves, at a 0:24:16.920 --> 0:24:20.800 certain point, nobody would talk about them because they didn't 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:24.840 appear to be evident. But what was evident was some 0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:28.879 of those preternatural signs, not even some an abundance of 0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:35.199 preternatural signs that that was impossible for the cause of 0:24:35.240 --> 0:24:38.240 which to be from the natural. For example, she would 0:24:38.280 --> 0:24:42.520 know the exact time and place that her friend Thea 0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:47.240 would be praying for her. She accurately predicted when a priest, 0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:50.440 Father Roth was going to come and visit her, although 0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:53.159 no one told her and even her family didn't know. 0:24:53.600 --> 0:24:56.119 And this is one of the things that demons do. 0:24:57.440 --> 0:25:02.000 It's quite common socially vicually an act that is threatening 0:25:02.080 --> 0:25:05.520 for them, like a priest is on his way right here, 0:25:05.640 --> 0:25:08.040 right now, and they will make a reference to it, 0:25:08.480 --> 0:25:12.480 and they will usually attach something derogatory to it, right 0:25:12.520 --> 0:25:17.040 they'll call him by some type of expletive, some type 0:25:17.080 --> 0:25:21.359 of scandalous word, and that's the manifestation of the threat 0:25:21.560 --> 0:25:25.280 that they feel. She as I mentioned already, the evidence 0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:27.920 of the superhuman strength when she was in the gravity 0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:30.920 of possession, when she was in the hospital and Peter 0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:33.200 and the priest couldn't lift her, but she had at 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:37.119 times the strength of a bear. So her friend Thea 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:40.119 identified this that she was throwing around men like they 0:25:40.119 --> 0:25:43.440 were rag dolls. And so this is a petitue girl. 0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:46.480 I mean, this is when she was already very close 0:25:46.520 --> 0:25:50.400 to her death. So this is a person who wouldn't 0:25:50.440 --> 0:25:54.960 have the strength to do such a thing. And then, 0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:59.040 of course she had knowledge of unknown languages, so she 0:25:59.160 --> 0:26:03.719 at one point corrected the priest's Latin. He missed pronounced something, 0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:07.399 and the demon stopped, you've mispronounced that, you idiot, this 0:26:07.520 --> 0:26:10.159 is how you say it. And then he spoke to 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:13.080 her in Dutch. Now her native language is German. He 0:26:13.160 --> 0:26:15.240 spoke to her in Dutch, and she answered back in 0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:18.960 Dutch fluently. Now Dutch and German they're different languages, but 0:26:19.000 --> 0:26:21.439 there's a lot of similarities. And she you know, if 0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:23.840 you live in Germany, you live close to Holland. So okay, 0:26:23.840 --> 0:26:27.879 fair enough. But that priest was a missionary priest. He 0:26:27.920 --> 0:26:30.600 had lived in China, so he spoke to her in 0:26:30.720 --> 0:26:35.359 Chinese and she answered in perfect Chinese. So again, you know, 0:26:35.880 --> 0:26:42.120 exorcism entails its own science, a science of diagnosis. It's 0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:46.199 a hard diagnosis. It's one that we don't take lightly, 0:26:46.760 --> 0:26:51.440 and it's a diagnosis that any rational human being, even 0:26:51.520 --> 0:26:55.439 an atheist, who is in the room and observes the phenomena, 0:26:55.960 --> 0:27:00.240 would have to conclude the same way that we do thing. 0:27:00.280 --> 0:27:04.240 Otherwise it would be foreign to what our craft, our 0:27:04.280 --> 0:27:06.000 and our nature, our science is. 0:27:27.440 --> 0:27:32.200 Father Martin's. You've said so much, and it makes sense 0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:35.240 because you your mind goes, you know, how would she 0:27:35.680 --> 0:27:38.960 be able to know Chinese and Dutch and all of 0:27:39.000 --> 0:27:41.800 these things by the age of twenty three. But then 0:27:41.880 --> 0:27:44.760 at the same time, you know, your mind thinks of 0:27:45.240 --> 0:27:48.320 everything that she's gone through as a child. You know, 0:27:48.760 --> 0:27:51.760 you know, having to wear black her whole life, and 0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:55.199 you know, not being able to socialize with children, and 0:27:55.240 --> 0:27:58.520 then being on drugs. I mean, do you think that 0:27:58.520 --> 0:28:02.639 that could have contributed as well, you know, to her 0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:03.439 mental health. 0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:06.520 I don't believe any of those things are true. There's 0:28:06.560 --> 0:28:09.760 been a lot of inks build about the Annals Michelle case, 0:28:10.440 --> 0:28:13.560 and a lot of that has been done by people 0:28:14.280 --> 0:28:18.080 that have absolutely no knowledge of the case, and some 0:28:18.119 --> 0:28:21.680 of them they'll have some knowledge, but they'll stop at 0:28:21.720 --> 0:28:27.240 the very incomplete medical diagnoses that she received and the 0:28:27.320 --> 0:28:32.680