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Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and

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Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast

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Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show

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Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.

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Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable

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Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rascha Pacerreiro

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Speaker 2: and I'm.

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Speaker 3: Evett Genteelay, and today we're talking about the case of

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Speaker 3: Annalise Michelle. That's a name you might not know, but

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Speaker 3: it's a case you probably do know a lot about. Yes,

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Speaker 3: this is a case involving a real life exorcism. And

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Speaker 3: while it took place after the infamous movie The Exorcist,

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Speaker 3: which I never saw because I'm a big scaredy cat,

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Speaker 3: it inspired three documentary films, The Exorcism of Emily Rose, Requiem,

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Speaker 3: and Honalise The Exorcist Tapes, and as that last title implies,

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Speaker 3: these exorcism sessions were actually recorded. There is audio of

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Speaker 3: the priests as they were trying to drive out the

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Speaker 3: evil spirits that they believed were possessing Analise Michelle and

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Speaker 3: full transparency here. I know little to nothing about exorcisms,

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Speaker 3: especially being agnostic, so looking at this as a case

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Speaker 3: is just feels so far removed from reality for me personally.

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Speaker 3: And we will analyze some of that today as we

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Speaker 3: talk with Father Carlos Martin's director of the Treasures of

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Speaker 3: the Church ministry and an official exorcist. We'll talk about

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Speaker 3: what really happened to Analise Michelle and how this exorcism

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Speaker 3: led to her death. But first our producer Trevor is

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Speaker 3: going to walk us through today's case.

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Speaker 4: There are many people who laugh at the notion of

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Speaker 4: demonic possession or even the reality itself, but the Catholic

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Speaker 4: Church does teach that evil's reality and it is personified

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Speaker 4: in the person of the devil.

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Speaker 1: Annalise Michelle was a twenty three year old woman from

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Speaker 1: Germany who died after a series of failed priestlet exorcisms

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six. She was born in libel Feing,

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Speaker 1: Bavaria in West Germany to a devout Catholic family. Supposedly,

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Speaker 1: Annalise and her sisters were not allowed to play outside

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Speaker 1: with other children, and instead spent most of their time

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Speaker 1: praying inside. At the age of sixteen, Annalise experienced her

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Speaker 1: first seizure. The next year, she had yet another and

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Speaker 1: was diagnosed with temporal lobe epilepsy, a chronic nerve system

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Speaker 1: disorder in which recurrent seizures take place, usually lasting a

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Speaker 1: couple of minutes. Shortly after this, she was diagnosed with

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Speaker 1: depression and psychosis and was treated at a psychiatric facility.

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Speaker 1: At the facility, she had another seizure and was prescribed

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Speaker 1: the anti convulsant dilantin, after which she began describing seeing

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Speaker 1: quote devil faces frequently. However, the medications did not help

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Speaker 1: with her seizures or her strange visions. In nineteen seventy three,

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Speaker 1: she went to the University of Wurtzburg, where her classmates

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Speaker 1: described her as quote withdrawn and very religious. Some classmates

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Speaker 1: described one occasion where they found her in a trance

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Speaker 1: like state with her arms outstretched dramatically. But she also

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Speaker 1: began hearing more menacing voices telling her she was damned

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Speaker 1: and that she would quote rotten Hell. Around this time,

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Speaker 1: she said someone else was manipulating her and that her

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Speaker 1: will was not her own. She also became intolerant of

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Speaker 1: cruise fixes and other sacred Christian objects and places. She

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Speaker 1: told a family friend that she was unable to enter

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Speaker 1: a Christian shrine during a religious pilgrimage the two took

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Speaker 1: together to Italy, and that the soil around the place

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Speaker 1: quote burned like fire when she attempted to walk on it.

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Speaker 1: The friend concluded that Annalise was suffering from demonic possession.

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Speaker 1: Annalise and her family were convinced of this as well,

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Speaker 1: and at first priests refused her pleas for an exorcism,

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Speaker 1: recommending that she instead continue her psychiatric treatment. They also

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Speaker 1: said they needed the bishop's permission to perform an exorcism,

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Speaker 1: but her condition worsened, and in September of nineteen seventy five,

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Speaker 1: Bishop Joseph Stongel granted Father ernst Alt and Father Arnold

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Speaker 1: Wrens permission to perform an exorcism on Annalise, but they

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Speaker 1: were ordered to total secrecy. Over the next ten months,

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Speaker 1: the two priests performed sixty seven exorcism sessions at the

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Speaker 1: rate of about two twice a week. Each lasted about

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Speaker 1: four hours, and forty two of these sessions were recorded.

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Speaker 1: Annalise had to be tied down for many of the

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Speaker 1: sessions as she tried to bite and harm the men.

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Speaker 1: In the last few months of the exorcisms, she refused

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Speaker 1: food and rapidly lost weight. On June thirtieth, nineteen seventy six,

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Speaker 1: Father Wrens performed the final exorcism. By now she was

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Speaker 1: severely emaciated, had pneumonia, and was running a high fever.

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Speaker 1: Her final words to the priest were quote request for absolution,

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Speaker 1: end quote, but her final words to her mother were quote, mother,

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Speaker 1: I'm afraid. On July first, nineteen seventy six, Annalise Michel died.

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Speaker 1: The cause of death was malnutrition and dehydration. Father Alt

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Speaker 1: and Father Wrens believed her exorcism was successful because she

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Speaker 1: died after the demons were driven out of her. Later

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Speaker 1: that year, the priests and parents were charged with negligent homicide.

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Speaker 1: The trial was a massive media sensation, and the priests

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Speaker 1: were eventually convicted, but only given suspended prison sentences. And so,

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Speaker 1: what happened to Annalise Michelle? Who was responsible for her death?

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Speaker 1: And what does the story tell us about the complicated

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Speaker 1: intersection between religious and medical approaches to mental illness.

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Speaker 3: So today we are lucky to be joined by an

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Speaker 3: expert in the field of exorcism.

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Speaker 5: You may have.

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Speaker 3: Recently heard his voice on the new iHeartRadio podcast that

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Speaker 3: Exorcist Files with Us. Now is Father Carlos Martins, director

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Speaker 3: of the Treasure of the Church Ministry and an official

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Speaker 3: exorcist on two Continents. Welcome Father Martins to Facing Evil.

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Speaker 5: Thank you very much. It is a pleasure to be

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Speaker 5: here with you.

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Speaker 2: We're honored to have you here, Father Martins.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so I just have to say I'm Catholic. I've

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Speaker 3: been married for sixteen years, and my husband and I

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Speaker 3: have an amazing father, father Arman, in our life. And

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Speaker 3: I remember asking him the question when did he get

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Speaker 3: that calling, you know, to be a part of the ministry,

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Speaker 3: And he told me, he said, Yvette, it was when

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Speaker 3: I was probably seven or eight that I just knew. So,

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Speaker 3: can I ask you when did you first get your

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Speaker 3: calling to be involved with the ministry work that you

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Speaker 3: do and eventually do exorcisms.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I guess for me, I was not as

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Speaker 5: young as your priest was. I'm a convert from atheism,

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Speaker 5: so I converted in my twenties. I was a college

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Speaker 5: student at the time, and after that conversion occurred, I

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Speaker 5: got the call to the priesthood about seven years later.

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Speaker 5: So in two thousand and three, I was on a

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Speaker 5: retreat and I heard the proverbial voice of God and

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Speaker 5: he said, Carlos, joined the priesthood. I promised to make

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Speaker 5: you very happy, and so I did and was ordained

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Speaker 5: a priest about six years later. And when I was

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Speaker 5: assigned to the first church that I was placed in,

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Speaker 5: the priests that were on staff there were the diocesan exorcists,

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Speaker 5: and they were just so busy with oppression and possession

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Speaker 5: cases with individuals that when something of a lesser nature

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Speaker 5: would come in, like the infestation of a house, demonic

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Speaker 5: phenomena happening within a place, they just turned to me

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Speaker 5: and said, Deacon, go get rid of the devil. So

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Speaker 5: I didn't have any training at that point, and so

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Speaker 5: I would not advise this to be the normal course

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Speaker 5: of affairs for someone to be thrown in a situation,

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Speaker 5: but that was my situation. And what I knew, though,

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Speaker 5: is that if the devil is in a place, then

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Speaker 5: there's going to be signs that reveal that presence. So

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Speaker 5: there's going to be proof, if you will, and if

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Speaker 5: the devil is in a place, and we can determine

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Speaker 5: that through proof, then he's there for a reason. In

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Speaker 5: other words, a door was opened to him, and so

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Speaker 5: that door has to be closed. What I preach on

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Speaker 5: all the time, what I've developed some notoriety for saying,

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Speaker 5: is this, the job of the exorcist is not to

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Speaker 5: cast out the devil. The job of the exorcist is

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Speaker 5: to find out why is the devil there? What rights

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Speaker 5: has he obtained, And it's the exorcist job to then, knowing,

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Speaker 5: once those rights are known, to work with the victim

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Speaker 5: to rescind those rights. Once the rights are rescinded, then

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Speaker 5: the devil must leave. Then the devil ca can be

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Speaker 5: cast out. But until that is done, the devil has

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Speaker 5: every right to stay. He's obtained the rights to stay.

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Speaker 5: So most people in their mind understand exorcism falsely to

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Speaker 5: be an enterprise where on the one side you have

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Speaker 5: a demon or demons, and on the other side you

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Speaker 5: have a priest and they kind of do battle with

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Speaker 5: one another, and whoever's the most powerful wins. And that

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Speaker 5: is nowhere near what the case is. One has to

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Speaker 5: find out which was the doorway by which the devil

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Speaker 5: entered where he is. Then that doorway has to be

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Speaker 5: closed and then he can be evicted.

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Speaker 2: So, Father Martins, I'll be quite honest. I was not

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Speaker 2: raised in the Catholic Church. However, I am born and

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Speaker 2: raised in Honolulu, and I respect the Hawaiian culture more

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Speaker 2: than you can possibly know. And so when I think

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Speaker 2: of things like exorcisms or what you do, I think

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Speaker 2: of our Hawaiian kahunas or our Hawaiian kahu's who will

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Speaker 2: go into homes and bless homes, or if something sad

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Speaker 2: has happened or anything like that, they go and they

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Speaker 2: just give O pome wit cut ye blessings. But with

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Speaker 2: all of that being said, I would love to know more,

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Speaker 2: what's the history of exorcism? Does it go as far

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Speaker 2: back as when the Bible was first written? I would

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Speaker 2: love to know the history of it.

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Speaker 5: Heavens no, it far predates that the Romans practiced it

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Speaker 5: before them, The Greeks practiced it, certainly the Jews did.

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Speaker 5: But in every historical culture, in every culture that history

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Speaker 5: can study, there appears to be the process of exorcism.

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Speaker 5: There appear to be people whose task it is or

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Speaker 5: who are willing to take on a foreign spirit manifested

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Speaker 5: as a different, a radically different personality that is all

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Speaker 5: of a sudden inhabiting somebody who is known, and that

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Speaker 5: typically that inhabitation is marked by a certain number of characteristics,

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Speaker 5: which all of all of which are are out of

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Speaker 5: the character of the person. So a particular violence, an

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Speaker 5: aversion to any goodness, to truth, to beauty to goodness,

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Speaker 5: a knowledge of hidden things, a knowledge of occult realities

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Speaker 5: or the occult, the meaning of occult being the most

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Speaker 5: broad meeting meaning that which is hidden, that that which

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Speaker 5: they couldn't possibly know. And included with that would be

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Speaker 5: a speaking of a language or language, is that they

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Speaker 5: were never taught. So there clearly is something different that

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Speaker 5: is not from the individual himself or herself that is

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Speaker 5: now present. A foreign spirit is now present. And so

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Speaker 5: there are different ways in which different cultures, and I

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Speaker 5: mean all of them, Japanese culture, Chinese culture, the different

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Speaker 5: African cultures and so forth, that they would deal with that.

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Speaker 5: I mean you mentioned your own. In the Hawaiian culture,

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Speaker 5: you have exactly so you have a copuona that would

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Speaker 5: come over and would conduct some ritual, the intention of

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Speaker 5: which would be to clean the place, to clean someone

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Speaker 5: wary place. Right, So that is ingrained in the human

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Speaker 5: nature that hey, we've we have these enemies that are

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Speaker 5: not physical, they're spiritual, and yet we we want to

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Speaker 5: combat them. So this drama is very much a part

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Speaker 5: of the human story. It's it's been there from the

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Speaker 5: beginning and it continues.

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Speaker 3: You know, Father, you were telling us the story of

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Speaker 3: you know, earlier, of how you got into the ministry,

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Speaker 3: and you were kind of you know, you were sent

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Speaker 3: to this house from that point on up until now

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Speaker 3: where you're at today. Did you or do you still

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Speaker 3: have to go through any type of training when you

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Speaker 3: do these different types of you know, exorcisms.

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Speaker 5: Well, I attend conferences regularly, but it's not really for

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Speaker 5: the sake of training. I'm in fact a trainer of exorcists. Now, okay,

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Speaker 5: Now that being said, it's always possible to learn something

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Speaker 5: new or to gain an insight from your colleagues, especially

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Speaker 5: when you have colleagues as good as I do. I

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Speaker 5: really respect the other exorcists with whom I work or

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Speaker 5: with whom I'm friends. They're smart individuals, they have great insights,

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Speaker 5: they're hard working, and they're committed people who love the

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Speaker 5: Lord and equally they love the victims, the people who

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Speaker 5: are ensnared. So those people need to be loved, and

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Speaker 5: we're doing this as an effort to rescue them and

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Speaker 5: to aid them. And these people have been tormented and tortured,

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Speaker 5: and often people regard them and sometimes even their own

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Speaker 5: family members, as people who are crazy, who are daft,

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Speaker 5: who shouldn't be believed because they're just not connected with reality.

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Speaker 5: And so mental illness is absolutely a thing. And I'm

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Speaker 5: not competent to diagnose mental illness. I'm not a psychiatrist

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Speaker 5: or a psychologist or a dog. However, I can diagnose

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Speaker 5: the presence of evil, and they're going to be very

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Speaker 5: different manifestations than a physical or mental illness. That being said,

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Speaker 5: That being said, it is not an either or situation.

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Speaker 5: One can have mental illness and can be demonically oppressed.

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Speaker 5: So because someone is diagnosed with mental illness, it does

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Speaker 5: not mean that, oh, because of that, the devil's not

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Speaker 5: interested in them. That's in fact, he's going to be

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Speaker 5: more interested in them because like an animal that is sick,

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Speaker 5: just as the pack of lions goes after that animal,

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Speaker 5: why because that animal is the easiest to catch. The

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Speaker 5: animals already wounded. So the animal is already a target

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Speaker 5: by that fact, so that love of the individual is

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Speaker 5: what gives the motive and all of the other things

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Speaker 5: that are needed to the exorcists the patients for example,

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Speaker 5: because sometimes the process of gathering information and making a

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Speaker 5: diagnosis is painstaking. It's not a quick thing. It's not

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Speaker 5: an effort of kind of telepathy, you know, with just

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Speaker 5: through a straight mental knowledge. Okay, eye into it. The

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Speaker 5: devil is in front of me, not at all. There

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Speaker 5: have to be signs. Those signs are objective that anybody

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Speaker 5: with a rational mind will have to conclude that nothing

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Speaker 5: in the natural realm could cause this. And they are

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Speaker 5: specific criteria that we follow.

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Speaker 2: So, Father Martins, can you take us through what actually

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Speaker 2: goes into an exorcism? How does it work?

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Speaker 5: So maybe let's take maybe half a step back. So

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Speaker 5: rather than starting with the actual exorcism, what do we

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Speaker 5: need to establish so that we know the presence of

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Speaker 5: a demon is there? And the Church identifies three classical

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Speaker 5: criteria that point to a reality that is beyond the

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Speaker 5: realm of nature. We call it preter nature, which literally

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Speaker 5: means in Latin outside the natural. One is knowledge of

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Speaker 5: the hidden, so within the victim, within the person who

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Speaker 5: is being diagnosed, a knowledge of facts that he or

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Speaker 5: she could not possibly know, such as, for example, if

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Speaker 5: that person all of a sudden started to recite facts

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Speaker 5: of your life, what happened on your eleventh birthday, conversation

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Speaker 5: that you had with your best friend last night in Seattle,

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Speaker 5: Washington before you flew to wherever you are here. So

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Speaker 5: there's no way in the natural realm that this individual

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Speaker 5: on the spot could come up with that knowledge. A Secondly,

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Speaker 5: the facility, the ability to speak in foreign languages with ease.

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Speaker 5: We're talking about speaking with facility, with perfect grammar, the

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Speaker 5: ability to answer and to ask questions. Thirdly, is superhuman strength,

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Speaker 5: strength that is beyond the ability of the natural and

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Speaker 5: anything else that might be related to that. So, for example,

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Speaker 5: something we might call possessed gravity. Whereas a petite individual

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Speaker 5: such as whom we're going to talk about, Annalise Michelle,

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Speaker 5: who weighed somewhere in the neighborhood of maybe one hundred

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Speaker 5: and thirty one hundred and forty pounds that her stout

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Speaker 5: boyfriend at one point and a priest could not lift her.

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Speaker 5: They couldn't budget her. So there was all of a

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Speaker 5: sudden a weight to her body that was absolutely extraordinary.

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Speaker 5: So we're talking about signs that are impossible in nature.

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Speaker 5: There have to be signs that the natural realm cannot

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Speaker 5: account for.

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Speaker 3: In the case of Annali's Michelle, obviously we know that

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Speaker 3: you know a lot about it. Can you tell us

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Speaker 3: what you think actually happened there as far as the facts.

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Speaker 5: Well, I think so. First of all, what I will

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Speaker 5: say is Annalise Michelle her possession was very, very unique

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Speaker 5: in the sense that her circumstances point to a particular

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Speaker 5: reality whereby God was asking her to take on a

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Speaker 5: suffering vicariously, a suffering for the sake of others, for

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Speaker 5: the benefit of others. To phrase it in in kind

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00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,119
Speaker 5: of classical Catholic language, she was being asked to be

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Speaker 5: a victim's soul. She's not the only one in history

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Speaker 5: that has had this. So we have a Canoni saint,

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Speaker 5: Saint Mary of Jesus Crucified, who was a Palestinian nun.

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Speaker 5: She was born in Bethlehem. She is called a holy demoniac.

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Speaker 5: She was possessed not because of a particular sin that

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Speaker 5: she had done a particular action, but she was possessed

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Speaker 5: for the sake of undergoing a suffering that would benefit

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Speaker 5: the Universal Church to benefit others. And the proof of

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Speaker 5: it is in the fact is that the demons didn't

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Speaker 5: want to be inside her. The demons described as the

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Speaker 5: one whom we serve, right, they never want to name God.

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Speaker 5: They don't even want to say the word, and they

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Speaker 5: absolutely will never say Jesus Christ. They will refer to

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Speaker 5: the one whom you serve, or the carpenter from Nazareth

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Speaker 5: or something like that. With regard to bless Saint Mary

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Speaker 5: of Jesus. Crucified the demons over and over repeated that

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Speaker 5: they wanted to leave, but the One whom you serve

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Speaker 5: will not let me. The same thing is in Analie's Michelle.

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Speaker 5: The demons at first talked about them bringing her to hell.

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Speaker 5: They talked about them having a plan for her. They enjoy,

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Speaker 5: they love torturing her, and they would brag about yesterday,

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Speaker 5: we made her do this for three hours, in other words,

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Speaker 5: chasing her tail, going kind of on a nervous wild

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Speaker 5: goose chase within her room. So she's pacing the room

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Speaker 5: for hours with horrendous anxiety. They would brag about this,

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Speaker 5: But as the exorcisms went on, that changed, so yes,

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Speaker 5: Annalie's Michelle had symptoms that were consistent with seizures, and

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Speaker 5: this is what kind of began her medical treatment. And

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Speaker 5: that's what began her parents taking her to the doctor,

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Speaker 5: first the family doctor, and then a neurologist. And she

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Speaker 5: saw several neurologists, and she had at least seven EEGs

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Speaker 5: in her life. All of them except one, proved to

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Speaker 5: be normal. One showed a slight abnormality in the left

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Speaker 5: lobe that might be consistent with normalcy, it might not be.

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Speaker 5: In other words, it was inconclusive. The diagnosis of epilepsy

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Speaker 5: was never one that was hard and fast. The doctor

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Speaker 5: at her trial who insisted that that's what she had,

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Speaker 5: he never saw her, so he's going by statements of

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Speaker 5: other people. He's not going by direct, firsthand knowledge. So

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Speaker 5: whether or not Annelie's Michelle had epileptie, I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I can't tell you. Her symptoms were consistent initially with seizures,

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Speaker 5: but that was quickly I'm not going to say replaced.

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Speaker 5: But alongside those things that the seizures themselves, at a

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Speaker 5: certain point, nobody would talk about them because they didn't

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Speaker 5: appear to be evident. But what was evident was some

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Speaker 5: of those preternatural signs, not even some an abundance of

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Speaker 5: preternatural signs that that was impossible for the cause of

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Speaker 5: which to be from the natural. For example, she would

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Speaker 5: know the exact time and place that her friend Thea

345
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 5: would be praying for her. She accurately predicted when a priest,

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Speaker 5: Father Roth was going to come and visit her, although

347
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Speaker 5: no one told her and even her family didn't know.

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Speaker 5: And this is one of the things that demons do.

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Speaker 5: It's quite common socially vicually an act that is threatening

350
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Speaker 5: for them, like a priest is on his way right here,

351
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Speaker 5: right now, and they will make a reference to it,

352
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Speaker 5: and they will usually attach something derogatory to it, right

353
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Speaker 5: they'll call him by some type of expletive, some type

354
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Speaker 5: of scandalous word, and that's the manifestation of the threat

355
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Speaker 5: that they feel. She as I mentioned already, the evidence

356
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Speaker 5: of the superhuman strength when she was in the gravity

357
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Speaker 5: of possession, when she was in the hospital and Peter

358
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Speaker 5: and the priest couldn't lift her, but she had at

359
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 5: times the strength of a bear. So her friend Thea

360
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 5: identified this that she was throwing around men like they

361
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Speaker 5: were rag dolls. And so this is a petitue girl.

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Speaker 5: I mean, this is when she was already very close

363
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Speaker 5: to her death. So this is a person who wouldn't

364
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Speaker 5: have the strength to do such a thing. And then,

365
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 5: of course she had knowledge of unknown languages, so she

366
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,719
Speaker 5: at one point corrected the priest's Latin. He missed pronounced something,

367
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Speaker 5: and the demon stopped, you've mispronounced that, you idiot, this

368
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 5: is how you say it. And then he spoke to

369
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Speaker 5: her in Dutch. Now her native language is German. He

370
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 5: spoke to her in Dutch, and she answered back in

371
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Speaker 5: Dutch fluently. Now Dutch and German they're different languages, but

372
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 5: there's a lot of similarities. And she you know, if

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Speaker 5: you live in Germany, you live close to Holland. So okay,

374
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Speaker 5: fair enough. But that priest was a missionary priest. He

375
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Speaker 5: had lived in China, so he spoke to her in

376
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Speaker 5: Chinese and she answered in perfect Chinese. So again, you know,

377
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Speaker 5: exorcism entails its own science, a science of diagnosis. It's

378
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 5: a hard diagnosis. It's one that we don't take lightly,

379
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 5: and it's a diagnosis that any rational human being, even

380
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Speaker 5: an atheist, who is in the room and observes the phenomena,

381
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Speaker 5: would have to conclude the same way that we do thing.

382
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Speaker 5: Otherwise it would be foreign to what our craft, our

383
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Speaker 5: and our nature, our science is.

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Speaker 3: Father Martin's. You've said so much, and it makes sense

385
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 3: because you your mind goes, you know, how would she

386
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 3: be able to know Chinese and Dutch and all of

387
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 3: these things by the age of twenty three. But then

388
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 3: at the same time, you know, your mind thinks of

389
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 3: everything that she's gone through as a child. You know,

390
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 3: you know, having to wear black her whole life, and

391
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 3: you know, not being able to socialize with children, and

392
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 3: then being on drugs. I mean, do you think that

393
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 3: that could have contributed as well, you know, to her

394
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Speaker 3: mental health.

395
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Speaker 5: I don't believe any of those things are true. There's

396
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 5: been a lot of inks build about the Annals Michelle case,

397
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 5: and a lot of that has been done by people

398
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 5: that have absolutely no knowledge of the case, and some

399
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 5: of them they'll have some knowledge, but they'll stop at

400
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 5: the very incomplete medical diagnoses that she received and the

401
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 5: fact that she was given some antipsychotic or anti convulsive medication.

402
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 5: At first it was strictly an anti convulsive medication for

403
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 5: the seizures. Yeah, an anti epilepsy medication. But those things

404
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 5: do have effects on the mind. For one, they made

405
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 5: her depressed, They made her slow, tired, and withdrawn, and

406
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 5: it does that to anybody. But the point being that

407
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 5: these drugs had absolutely no effect on the preternatural occurrence.

408
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 5: And this is something that occurs all the time. If

409
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 5: possession is an act by a preternatural enemy, why in

410
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 5: Heaven's name would it matter what drugs, what sedatives would

411
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 5: be inside the victim's body. And in fact, I have

412
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 5: a good friend of mine, Adam Bli, who is a

413
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 5: demonologist and who is the bishop's expert on demonology and

414
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 5: exorcism for the Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh. He used to

415
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 5: work in a prison and when an inmate becomes violent,

416
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 5: egregiously violent, what they will do is inject thorizine into

417
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 5: him to make him start. Ten minutes after he's received

418
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 5: an injection of thorisine, he's on the floor drooling into

419
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 5: his shoe. In prison, thorizine is called break fluid. It

420
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 5: just stops a human being.

421
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Speaker 1: Period.

422
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 5: You can inject a possessed person with thorazine, there will

423
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 5: be absolutely no change in their behavior, and in fact,

424
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,959
Speaker 5: sometimes the demon will come back at you. In a

425
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 5: provocative way and say, oh that felt good. Do you

426
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 5: got anymore? So we're talking about two different realities.

427
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: I would like to ask you did mention you know,

428
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 2: father Alt and the other priest was father Rends. Do

429
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: you think that they did everything that they should have

430
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: done or do you think it was taken too far?

431
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 5: Sure? Yeah, so that's a really good question. And the

432
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 5: answer to that is I don't know, because I wasn't there. Certainly,

433
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 5: I will say this that if any of them believed,

434
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 5: and they gave testimony to this, if any of them

435
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 5: believed that she was close to death, then they would

436
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 5: have stopped, have had her medicated, they would have had

437
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 5: her institutionalized and forced fed if need be. But you

438
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 5: also have to remember that even in the case of

439
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 5: force feeding, we can force feed somebody who has a

440
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 5: mental health issue. We can give them any number of

441
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 5: tranquilizer sedatives thorazine for example, and force feed them. In

442
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 5: the case of demonic possession, force feeding somebody is not

443
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 5: necessarily an option you can try. Now in this case,

444
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 5: it wasn't tried because they regarded And so I mean

445
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 5: the two priests, both parents, all you know, her three

446
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 5: sisters none and including her boyfriend, Peter, her friend Thea,

447
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 5: Maria Klog her friend, and Anna Lippert. So nine individuals,

448
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 5: pardon me, eleven individuals. None of them believed that she

449
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 5: was close today. So there is one more fact to

450
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 5: look at, and that has to be thrown on the

451
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 5: scale in the midst of all of this. That annales

452
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 5: when she was herself predicted, in other words, during in

453
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 5: states where the demon was not possessing, that she was

454
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 5: going to be freed in July of that year, July

455
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 5: of nineteen seventy six.

456
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: And isn't that when she passed away?

457
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 5: That is, she died on July the first, So she

458
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 5: was given a knowledge, allegedly by the blessed Virgin. This

459
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 5: was testified to by her friends and by her family

460
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 5: members over and over that she had repeated this. The

461
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 5: demons as well, in the course of the exorcisms, also

462
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 5: stated that we are finished by July. In July, our

463
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 5: reign comes to an end. So on the morning of

464
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 5: July the first, she's dead in her bed in the morning.

465
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 5: Now the prophecy was true, she was free, but she died.

466
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 5: She died. She was diagnosed as having died of malnutrition.

467
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 5: I believe that medical diagnosis. It's not up to me

468
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 5: to question that. I take that at face value. Would

469
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 5: I have continued with the exorcisms if her health was

470
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 5: in danger?

471
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 2: No.

472
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 5: That being said, I believe these eleven rational people when

473
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 5: they say they were not aware that she that she

474
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 5: was in danger, in life threatening danger because of her condition.

475
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 5: I think in that sense, the fact that none of

476
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 5: these people, eleven people, none of them raised that question

477
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 5: or had that concern, I think that has to be

478
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 5: taken into account because we weren't there.

479
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 3: I think about what you do, right, Father Martin's, when

480
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 3: you go into someone's home and you know they've called

481
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 3: you in because they believe what they believe is happened

482
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 3: to their child or you know, whomever it may be.

483
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 3: When you go in, there has to be that element

484
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 3: of that supernatural that is happening in order for you

485
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 3: to do an exorcism. Right, Instead of saying this is

486
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 3: for the doctors.

487
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 5: Again, I don't want to take anything away from the

488
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 5: doctors who made their diagnoses. They were rational ment and

489
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 5: they're applying their science, and I applaud them for it.

490
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 5: I do have I do take issue with the doctor

491
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 5: at her trial who gave her a diagnosis of epilepsy

492
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 5: and stated that that that was the cause of the problem,

493
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 5: when he had never met with her and diagnosed her.

494
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 5: And so he's taking his facts on hearsay and maybe

495
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 5: EEGs that others did which showed nothing anyway. So the

496
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:22,240
Speaker 5: fact that the medical profession, multiple doctors, had a crack

497
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 5: at Annales, but we're never able to provide a diagnosis

498
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 5: that we're able to explain all of the facts and

499
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 5: phenomena that came from her that were seen by numerous people,

500
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 5: then I think we have to go somewhere else that

501
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 5: good science demands that we go to another explanation on.

502
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 2: Facing evil, we always try to find the light in

503
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: the dark. I am curious, Father, what do you see

504
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 2: as the light in the dark in Analisa's case?

505
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 5: Sure? You know so with Annales. One of the phenomena

506
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 5: that is present is her grave is visited by hundreds,

507
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 5: if not thousands, of pilgrims a year. In other words,

508
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 5: there's this kind of what we call in the Catholic

509
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 5: Church and an odor of sanctity, a smell of holiness

510
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 5: that has been left behind, and that this is an

511
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 5: odor that the church talks about the saints leaving and

512
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 5: people are attracted to that quote unquote odor, but people

513
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 5: are attracted to the person of Annely's Michelle. That there

514
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 5: is all the signs that the Holy Spirit has instilled

515
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 5: within people and instinct, that she lived a saintly life,

516
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 5: and that she is with the Lord in heaven.

517
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 3: Father, we really appreciate that thought. It's so nice to

518
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 3: hear that, even though Anali's faced a lot of difficulty

519
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 3: in her life, that her grave is visited by thousands

520
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 3: of people and she is still remembered.

521
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, Mahalanuiloa, thank you so much for joining us today,

522
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 2: Father Martin's.

523
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely anytime.

524
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 2: For today's message of hope and healing, our emul goes

525
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: out to Analise Michelle. We will never know the true

526
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 2: extent of Analis's mental illness, but we do know that

527
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 2: she did struggle during a time where treatments for conditions

528
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 2: like hers were incredibly limited.

529
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 3: And people struggling with mental health often feel so disconnected

530
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 3: from those around them and so misunderstood. And although things

531
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 3: are better now than they once were, many people still

532
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 3: experience a sense of stigma and shame around their illness.

533
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 3: If you are in a crisis. There is help available.

534
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,919
Speaker 3: You can reach the US Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at

535
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 3: nine to eight eight.

536
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 2: Analise Mashie Show was more than just a spooky story.

537
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 2: She was a young woman who'd once been a student teacher.

538
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 2: Some part of her likely harbored dreams of the future

539
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 2: outside of the nightmarish world that increasingly engulfed her.

540
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,359
Speaker 3: And so today we send hope and healing to Annaalis

541
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 3: and to others who have found themselves in similar circumstances.

542
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 3: Onward and upward e mooa emua.

543
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 2: Well, that's our show for today. We'd love to hear

544
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 2: what you thought about today's discussion and if there's a

545
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 2: case you'd like for us to.

546
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 3: Cover, find us on social media or email us at

547
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 3: Facingevil pod at Tenderfoot dot tv.

548
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 2: And one small request if you haven't already, please find

549
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 2: us on iTunes and give us a good rating and

550
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 2: a good review. If you like what we do, your

551
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 2: support is always cherished.

552
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 3: Until next time, I'm Aloha.

553
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.

554
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and a vet Gentile,

555
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf

556
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald

557
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of

558
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge.

559
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on

560
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv.

561
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,080
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562
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,000
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563
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