1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. We've 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: been following the US invasion of Venezuela and all of 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: the many oil related stories behind it for the last 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: couple of weeks. Today we're bringing you an interview that 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: our new and amazing senior Global Climate Justice reporter Nina 6 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: Lakhani did with Fernanda Hoppenheim, member of the UN Working 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: Group on Business and Human Rights. What Hoppenheim lays out 8 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: here is that the Trump administration, in capturing various tankers 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: and unilaterally taking over oil production in Venezuela, has violated 10 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: multiple different international laws. And while President Trump might think 11 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: that that doesn't matter or doesn't apply to him or 12 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: the US companies involved in the sale and trade of 13 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: that oil. 14 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: Are opening themselves up to a lot of legal liability. 15 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: Hopenheim describes why and how in this very interesting conversation 16 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 2: that's coming up right after this quickbreak. You can also 17 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 2: read a version of this story on our website at 18 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: Drilled dot Media. 19 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 3: I'm really interested in the different legal consequences and risks 20 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 3: around the US military action in Venezuela. What legal exposure 21 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 3: do the stated aims and what we're now seeing being 22 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 3: putting into action, mean for the seizure of Venezuelan oil. 23 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 4: Well, the thing is, all of this intervention has been 24 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 4: done unilaterally, outside of say the international So I think 25 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 4: that whichever bangle with trying to syndicate it from we 26 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 4: end the concluding net this is, you know, well, first 27 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 4: of all, and this has been already stated, you know, 28 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 4: a blind violation of the UN chance. And when we 29 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 4: see in other countries that for example, have sanctions, is 30 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 4: that this comes from the UN Security Council or in 31 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 4: a collective manner according to international architecture, which we can 32 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 4: discuss and criticize, of course, but it is we have nowadays. 33 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 4: So this is totally outside of that scenario, that architecture, 34 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 4: and that is what it makes it particularly concerning. And 35 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 4: I would say it has some similarities with the invasion 36 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 4: of Ukraine by Russia in terms of a permanent member 37 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 4: of the Security Council breaching the UN Charter. You know, 38 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 4: no different permanent members within four years done illegal actions 39 00:02:55,600 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 4: outside of the chant. Well here it's at the same 40 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 4: time very different in terms of going in taking the president, 41 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 4: which you know, again we can discuss the leganty or 42 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 4: in the ganety of those innnections and all of that 43 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 4: in Venezuela. But taking ahead of state and under arguments 44 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 4: that are not related to anything connected to democracy, to 45 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 4: human rights and everything we're questioning about Venezuela and monitoring 46 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 4: in Venezuela. The argument is narco trafficking, and that is 47 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 4: highly concerning in Mexico, the Columbia, any other countries. Well, 48 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 4: you know, they could actually use that argumented inter beed 49 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 4: in the country. So all the legality, I would say, 50 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 4: of these actions is really questionable. And now the extraction 51 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 4: of oil and supposedly the sale of oil is really 52 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 4: something that is being done in a total point legal 53 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 4: friend work. So the companies need to consider as they 54 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 4: can be complicit to this illegal actions. 55 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 3: Can we think about this oil in two parts? First 56 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 3: of all, the Silly's tankers, right, So then we have 57 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 3: the question of these sanctions, whether these sanctions these unnatural sanctions, 58 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 3: and the violocs of these sanctions, the legality of all 59 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 3: of that. What I'm doing right now with some research 60 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 3: colleagues is that we're tracking the oil that has been 61 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 3: seized from the tankers and where that is going. So 62 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 3: we've been able so far to look at all of 63 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 3: the different corporations that have somehow been linked to this oil, 64 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 3: so from the commodity traders to the refineries to those 65 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 3: specialist companies. I think there's about thirty five companies that 66 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 3: have somehow been named so far, either by the Trump 67 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 3: the administration or in press reports or whatever. Right, And 68 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 3: what we can see so far is that several of 69 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,239 Speaker 3: the tankers have been bought by or in the hands 70 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 3: of one or two of the big commodity traders and 71 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 3: are en route to the refineries in Louisiana. But when 72 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 3: we look at this oil that was seized under this 73 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 3: pretense of the sanctions, what would you say in terms 74 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 3: of sort of potential corporate and business sort of liability 75 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 3: and complicity in this What are the rules, the norms, 76 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 3: the laws that corporations could be at risk of violating 77 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 3: if they engage in the selling and the trading and 78 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 3: the buying of this oil and it's refined products. 79 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, So if we look at this framework that we 80 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 4: have unfading principles on business and youre rights, which is 81 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 4: the standard that we've had for fifteen years, that kind 82 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 4: of provides a lot of clarity in terms of state 83 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 4: obligations the existing ones. It doesn't create uans about responsibility 84 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 4: and then access to remedy when things happen. Violations happened. 85 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 4: But this framework in terms of the responsibility of corporations, 86 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 4: really established three ways in which companies can, let's take, 87 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 4: be involved in human rights and uses or illegal actions 88 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 4: with regards to this. So they can be causing them 89 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 4: directly in their operations. They can be connected to them 90 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 4: directly by their commercial relationships or to take their providers 91 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 4: in or their supply chain, et cetera. So they have 92 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 4: a responsibility over their supply team. But they can also 93 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 4: be linked to them by engaging in certain business out 94 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 4: something of a legal framework, let's say, or connected to 95 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 4: human rights violations, and even outside of their supply chain. 96 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 4: I think that's the distinction between number two and number three. 97 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 4: Right one is your own operation, the second your supply chain. 98 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 4: The third any links commercial links something that's violating international law, 99 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 4: which would be the case here for companies that want 100 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 4: to get contracts with the US government to refine that 101 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 4: or export or to be part of the operation. I 102 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 4: think that's the rest that they're land seeing slave grand 103 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 4: violation of internation. 104 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 3: Because I think these companies. The way they're going to 105 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 3: justify it is that, well, we're buying off the US government. 106 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 3: But to me, it seems really obvious that you can't 107 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 3: just take someone's oil, whether you're the most powerful country 108 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 3: in the world. The law is the law, right. Just 109 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 3: because you say it's fine doesn't make it fine. Right, 110 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 3: It doesn't make it legal. And so is it a 111 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 3: false reassurance they're giving themselves that they have no case 112 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 3: to answer here legally just because the US has said 113 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 3: that they now own the oil or they're now in 114 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 3: charge of the oil. 115 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 4: I mean, I think they're probably navigating a gray area 116 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 4: right where I think the world has something able to 117 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 4: react this kind of shocking the I would say, it's 118 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 4: storm of illegality, if you will. And they're just saying, 119 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 4: we're going to profit from this gray area. Well, I 120 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 4: think there's an unbeveuilt problem, there's an ethical problem in Yeah, 121 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 4: I mean, it's probably juicy in terms of business, so 122 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 4: they're going to do it. Many of these companies, I 123 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 4: would say most probably haven't seen the whole list, are 124 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 4: based in the US or are incorporated in the UMS, 125 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 4: most of them probably, which gives them a legal protection 126 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 4: of their own things. If we were thinking about let's 127 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 4: say a French company or a British company or some 128 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 4: and not companies coming from different home states, at least 129 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 4: the headquarters of the parent company. I think we could 130 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 4: use that with those governments and say, you know, you 131 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:56,359 Speaker 4: should be sunctioning given warnings to this companies, to your companies, 132 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 4: and it's from your country because they're going to be 133 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 4: complicit in dilitionions of international Well one and would say 134 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 4: of the problems is that many of these companies are 135 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 4: US based and so they kind of had the protection 136 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 4: of the US government, if you will. So they are 137 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 4: all acting in this gray area together. 138 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. A lot of the companies are European actually, so 139 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 3: for example, the main trader is vital and Bittle is 140 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 3: a Dutch company. Also, the companies at the refined products end, 141 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 3: most of the companies that are looking to get involved 142 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 3: or at least so in signs they're ready to get 143 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 3: back involved are companies that were previously operating in Venezuela 144 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 3: and in Europe. When it comes to the refined final 145 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 3: product destination, it seems to be mostly the Mediterranean companies, 146 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 3: so Spanish oil company Any and Italy because of the 147 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 3: type of oil and a type of refined product you're getting. 148 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 3: So actually, I mean, yes, there's refinery, the refiners in 149 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 3: in the US and obviously Chevron and excellent US companies, 150 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 3: but there is a whole node in between that I 151 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 3: think are going to be European and outside of your 152 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 3: as well. Well. 153 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 4: There I think we can you definitely look at the 154 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 4: legal framework see Europe as well. For example, we worn't 155 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 4: for a long time in this community of practice of 156 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 4: business and human rights on the c is Triple D, 157 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 4: so the directive human rights and environmentality diligence that was 158 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 4: now deluted into the only US law. But even in 159 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 4: the onliest package the big companies which I'm sure this 160 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 4: oil is all into that category of course, in terms 161 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 4: of profit and number of employees and number of subsidiaries, 162 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 4: there is that framework that can't be used to hold 163 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 4: the company's accountable because this company should, according to this 164 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 4: European frameworks, not get involved in this. They should conduct 165 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 4: view diligence to make sure they're not implicit with human 166 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 4: rights or environmental uses. Yeah, so here we have, of 167 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 4: course everything you've already explored on the environment, climate and 168 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 4: all of that. So they would be let's say, attentionally 169 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 4: in violation of those provisions. But then we're also talking 170 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 4: about international law and human rights laws, so applying to 171 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 4: Venezuela and to everything that happens. Also, all the seizing 172 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 4: thinkers are done in international waters. There are a lot 173 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 4: of elements of inegality in the way they're being done. 174 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 4: The US government brand always has stated in the three 175 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 4: occasions that it has been done with no hiccups Wednesday, 176 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 4: no problems. But one we don't know the use alarms 177 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 4: with the crew, for example, they seizing the people. What 178 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 4: are they doing with those pedicins? You know sometimes they 179 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 4: are illegally detained. They could be tortured. There are a 180 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 4: lot of rights layers that once one starts to look 181 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 4: at that these companies should include all those things in 182 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 4: thirty combined with the frameworks in their countries or the 183 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 4: European frameworks, because also you know, Spain has its own provisions, France, 184 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 4: the Netherlands, at Centain, they're probably breach to say the 185 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 4: least if. 186 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 3: They I mean, yes, there's this promise subduced the profits. 187 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 3: Why with the protection of the Trump administration, but under 188 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 3: international law and also domestic laws, by what you're saying 189 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 3: is that it doesn't recuse any of these companies from 190 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 3: undertaking the due diligence that it required the undertake. That 191 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 3: would not be a defense in court. 192 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 4: It wouldn't. I first see a lot of cases coming 193 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 4: to courts in coming years, because well, the problem is 194 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 4: when you violent the law that it only takes yourself 195 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 4: far and you can't understand that case for years. So 196 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 4: I think many of the companies, probably particularly European companies, 197 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 4: could be taken to court by different organizations and institutions 198 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 4: plain thieves, even from venezuet or outside them as well 199 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 4: as this again, the way this exploitation of oil is 200 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 4: being done got us against everything the international courts are saying, right, 201 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 4: and will. 202 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 3: The US companies I guess one point to ask you, well, 203 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 3: there two I guess a two part question. One is 204 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 3: that the refineries. So we have the US incorporated old companies, right, 205 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 3: and we have the US refineries now specifically, the harms 206 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 3: that will be done to the population around those refineries 207 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 3: are well known, are foreseeable, are predictable, and that is 208 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 3: something that the International Court of Justice was very clear 209 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 3: about in its rulings. Right, these are for seeable harms, right, 210 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 3: So just to even though these are US based corporations, 211 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 3: potentially could people who are harmed in the US as 212 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 3: well as in Venezuela from the production and the processing 213 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 3: of the oil in the US. Could they potentially look 214 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 3: at the international courts to bring cases even if in 215 00:13:58,120 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 3: the US it would be more difficult. 216 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 4: And I think that's definitely the case. You know, they 217 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:07,239 Speaker 4: could use the determinant system. The US is the Americas 218 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 4: of trouble. They could use, of course the international system, right, 219 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 4: the universal system and bring complaints to the different UN 220 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 4: mechanisms or bring legal cases to the cords. I also 221 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 4: see that there are many these issues that are so 222 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 4: linked to environmental and climate elements that these are, let's say, 223 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 4: of international interest. So I've seen in some cases the 224 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 4: argument that cards could bring a complaint to an international 225 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 4: cord if there's a group of companies contributing to worsening 226 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 4: the climate emergency, for example. This is kind of something 227 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 4: that broadens, if you will, the legitimate interests of the 228 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 4: plain tea. It's not just that it happened in my 229 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 4: neighborhood or yeah house or in my community. It's something 230 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 4: that and timing the climate systems. So anyone potentially could 231 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 4: argue that legitimate interesting putting forward and form not legal, yes, 232 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 4: think the country or the companies. So I think that 233 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 4: really can increase liability. 234 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 3: And I was also wondering just about in terms of 235 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 3: state obligations here, because again the ICJ advisory opinion was 236 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 3: very clear that states are responsible for regulating the corporations 237 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 3: that are within their sort of jurisdictions for licenses for 238 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 3: production for all of their foreseeable harms. So if Spain 239 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 3: or the Netherlands, for example, incorporations from their countries are 240 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 3: then engaged in the buying and selling of this oil 241 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 3: and all refined products, potentially my question is whether the 242 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 3: states themselves could at least base questions about their failure 243 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 3: to regulate the companies in this particular case. 244 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 4: I think that's definitely a good case. And who's gonna 245 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 4: produce the different webs, who's going to sell it, who's 246 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 4: going to buy it? If any given country also buy that, 247 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 4: you are complicit from stard point to end point, and 248 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 4: I think that we need to speak crystal clear for 249 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 4: companies and for states. And then I think that many 250 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 4: experts in the fields and NGEOS academics have quite a 251 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 4: bit of clarity on this, and they're going to potentially, 252 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 4: as they've done in other cases, showing states for not 253 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 4: regulating the gun production, for example, arms traits in the 254 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 4: case of US, that we have to see examples. Yes, 255 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 4: I think this is something that could happen in this 256 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 4: case as well in any given country, but particularly those 257 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 4: that have stronger regulations and are not even complying with 258 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 4: those themselves as a regulator in their monitoring, let's say, 259 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 4: and enforcing roles, but also the companies but not complying. 260 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 3: I think the Netherlands is really interesting. Last year I 261 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 3: with some nonprofit researchers and we tracked the companies in 262 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 3: the countries that was continuing to sell oil to Israel 263 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 3: since the genocide Brulin, right, And so we've been keeping 264 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 3: a track of those and now we're sort of digging 265 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 3: deeper into one of the commodity traders who is also 266 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 3: involved in the crude going to Israel but also involved 267 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 3: in the Venezuelan case. And last week there was a 268 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 3: very interesting and important sentence in the Netherlands regarding the 269 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 3: state failure around climate change and its policies around climate action. 270 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 3: So I think that's really interesting where that could go, 271 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 3: both from a corporate and state angle. The other sort 272 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 3: of part of this, I guess, is the oil the 273 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 3: US is now saying it's in control over that's still 274 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 3: in the ground in Venezuela. And you've touched on this already, 275 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 3: the illegality of the removal of a head of state 276 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 3: under false pretenses, an open invitation for companies, especially American 277 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 3: companies but others too, to go and start extracting and 278 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 3: exploiting this oil. When our bas attorneys about this, the 279 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 3: question that they keep bringing up saying makes it very 280 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 3: gray is the corporation between the Venezuelan government the buyer, 281 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 3: I mean under DUS. It's very very arguable that is happening. 282 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 3: But I just wonder how you see that in terms 283 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 3: of corporate cantability and responsibility of the US basically unilaterally 284 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 3: again saying not just that we want you to come in, 285 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 3: but we're going to manage the money. We're going to 286 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 3: manage the buying and the selling and the profits all 287 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 3: of that. Like, where is the corporate responsibility and accountability there? 288 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 4: Well, the thing is, if we look at the news 289 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 4: and it seems like the US is in control and 290 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 4: just making what this decision, and if we listen to Trump, 291 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 4: that's how it's cut right out there. We're doing this 292 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 4: with corporation of this kind of mettle government. Yeah, strictly speaking, 293 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 4: the current presidents, you know, then it or the tom 294 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 4: averrack comes afterwards. If they end up having anticipated in 295 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 4: elections which they call for, then they retreat. Well, I 296 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 4: don't know what they are going to do about it 297 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 4: at this moment in time of this is the government 298 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 4: in Venezuela. This it's a ruling force, if you will. 299 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 4: So a company couldn't just say I had a contract 300 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 4: with the Venezuelan government, for example, and even though sam 301 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 4: Sinaia has reached the government by this, I negle action 302 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 4: by the US Center and Center. It's not then whether 303 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 4: or died of a heart attack. But I think legally speaking, 304 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 4: strictly speaking, this could potentially be seen as lead if 305 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 4: the concert is not with the US government or anything. 306 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 3: So if the. 307 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 4: Contract are legally framed with the Venezuelan government, as you know, 308 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 4: a concession for the extraction called oil, then any company 309 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 4: could argue this is a legal contract. The problem is 310 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 4: how these things happened how it got there, and that's 311 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 4: why we I think what we're trying to do, and 312 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 4: the work grew up in different mechanisms, is just to 313 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 4: kind of put about a red plan like you know, 314 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 4: it might be legally framed domestically in Venezuela, but if 315 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 4: you're an international actor and all these breaches of international 316 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 4: law have happened, you can be complicit nevertheless, So it's 317 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 4: not just about the legality of the contract, it's broader. 318 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 4: That's the message we're trying to put there, is that 319 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 4: one shouldn't just be looking at how that concession is 320 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 4: given and how construct is written according to Venezuela law, 321 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 4: but just look at it from a broader framework that 322 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 4: talks about you know, again the guiding friends of the 323 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 4: state very nearly the responsibilities of companies international well, the 324 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 4: international called sufficory, opinions etcenta. 325 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 3: It's interesting because you're saying that as international actors may 326 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 3: have these international responsibilities. You can't be an international actor 327 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 3: without having international responsibilities. And I wonder also when you 328 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 3: talked earlier about the three ways human rights abuses can 329 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 3: occur if we think about where the oil is in Venezuela, 330 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 3: in areas that are very controlled by the military or 331 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 3: powermilitary group. The potential for violations in terms of human 332 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 3: rights violations and environmental violations, all of those are very high, right, 333 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 3: and so those are things that sounds like when you're 334 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,719 Speaker 3: putting the red flag up, you're also sort of warning 335 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 3: companies about, right, just because the contract might look legal, 336 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 3: all of these other responsibilities they still have. 337 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, they definitely stand. And even in countries where i'd 338 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 4: say human rights, environmentality diligence it's not under tory, they 339 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 4: still need to do it because they have this international responsibility. 340 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 4: Venezuela doesn't require any of those. But if they have 341 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 4: the contract, they have the concession and they just come 342 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 4: in extract and do their own thing, that's still and 343 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 4: a legal liability for them in terms of international they 344 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 4: don't conduct. Do your diligence understand the human rights risks 345 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 4: prevent that also in this areas for the i would 346 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 4: say constructive industries in general, there's always, of course a 347 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 4: big environmental risk, but also communities. Then you need you 348 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 4: need to engage their indigenous communities. They are protected by 349 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 4: international law. They are peoples, have special protection and they 350 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 4: are entitled to consent. So there are a lot of 351 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 4: elements there that it's not just the legality of contract, 352 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 4: which is something that even companies struggle with them. If 353 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 4: you talk to any company representative from the sustainability or 354 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 4: even human rights in some right cases, a department, they 355 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 4: would say that they have an internal fight with the 356 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 4: legal department, because legal is about complying with the regulations. Yeah, 357 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,959 Speaker 4: you know their minimum, Just comply then you're okay, and 358 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 4: the other no, no, no, we need to comply with 359 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:50,959 Speaker 4: all these other responsibilities. 360 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 3: How as you're talking, I'm thinking about Nigeria being a 361 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 3: very good example. Why were actually all these companies you're 362 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 3: now seeing litigation in the UK and in France and 363 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 3: so forth. You know, companies that had contracts but the 364 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 3: force deviction of communities, the violence in the social conflict 365 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 3: generated by the security forces, a whole range of violations, 366 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 3: the same in many mining communities and Africa. These are 367 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 3: all legal obligations that required due diligence, and all of 368 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 3: these companies cheveryone. Next one cannot be protected fully by 369 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 3: the US is you know, self declared impunity from everything. 370 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 4: I think another important message is even if you have 371 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 4: a legal contract with the current Venezuelan. Let's say government, 372 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 4: then you know we should still be responsible in terms 373 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 4: of how you conduct to your operations. First of all, 374 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 4: I would laaren don't go to Venezuela now, because again 375 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 4: the illegal action by the US has put the country 376 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 4: in a position where there is a void and legal void. 377 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 4: And the way again the tankers have been seized, et cetera, 378 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 4: but also the way the oil still hasn't been extracted, 379 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 4: can put to you in a situation we're complicit with 380 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 4: violations of international law. And I would argue if I 381 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 4: were a business person that I wouldn't want to be 382 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 4: connected to violations of international law. So that's I think 383 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 4: the warning need to clear and give companies. First, you 384 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 4: don't want to be complicit with violations of international law 385 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 4: or connected to violations of international law in a very unstable, 386 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 4: illegal situation in Venezuela. Said, and you don't want to 387 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 4: be causing or connected to human rights violations on the 388 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 4: ground in Venezuela when you're wanting to abstrive that well, 389 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 4: and you need to conduct the diligen So those messages, 390 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 4: I think are the ones that we're trying to put 391 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 4: out there to companies and just to say, you really 392 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 4: need to be careful here. It's not just a business opportunity, 393 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 4: and it's not about the welfare of Venezuelans. Everybody knows that, No, 394 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 4: you're not going to you know, maybe you pay some taxes. 395 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 4: Situation of the Venezuelans is as terrible as it was 396 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 4: before they took to the US, and nobody cares. That's 397 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 4: the other thing, Like all of this are being seen 398 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 4: as business opportunities they can try and about the development 399 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 4: of Venezuela and the world being of Venezuelans. 400 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 3: So far, we haven't seen, I mean, any discussion of 401 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 3: the rule of law security has really only been said 402 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 3: in the context of making it a place to do business, 403 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 3: because that's the motivation. Just to follow one from your 404 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 3: sort of warnings, would you also say that states themselves 405 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 3: cannot wash their hands of the way that the corporations 406 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,719 Speaker 3: that go in. If the corporations that do go in 407 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 3: and do benefit from the illegal actions that have taken place, 408 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 3: that states themselves will also bear a responsibility for that, 409 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 3: will they not? 410 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 4: Certainly I would add that to the list of warnings 411 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 4: for sure, because many of the companies, again coming from 412 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 4: the countries that actually are monday be transparent and the 413 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 4: diligence to make sure that their operations are dene with integrity. 414 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 4: There are many rules in many of those countries, and 415 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 4: we have the European rules, but then again another that 416 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 4: has its yes pay many in different areas. Many are 417 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 4: more focused on our mental issues, some other human rights 418 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 4: or transparency, on tap, corruption, integrity, many things that are 419 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 4: now at risk in that as well. So if those 420 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 4: companies coming from those countries are going to operate, there 421 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 4: as the same analogy with Nigeria shells, you know, suit 422 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 4: and not ann and then you know, one could argue 423 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 4: that the Dutch government can also be sued food reregnating 424 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 4: adequately their own. 425 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 3: And on top of all of that, now we have 426 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 3: the ICJA over says you. As a state, especially the 427 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 3: high polluting states, have a responsibility of legal internet for 428 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 3: legal responsibility to regulate companies so they do not do 429 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 3: for suable climate harms, right, I mean that's on top 430 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 3: of all of the things that you just mentioned. Right, 431 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 3: So you said this earlier, but it feels like there's 432 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,479 Speaker 3: going to be lots of litigation happening in the context 433 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 3: of this Venezuelan oil grabah. 434 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 4: I mean I think that, I know it's incomparable when 435 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,719 Speaker 4: I have a similar feeling of what happens in Gaza 436 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 4: and genocide, just feeling that nobody could stop it, but 437 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 4: we could do a lot of urtions outside, which is 438 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 4: what many actors have done. Yeah, you know, suing states, 439 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 4: suing companies, looking for solutions outside of the territory because 440 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 4: there seemed like that nothing could be done to stop it. 441 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 4: I think that's something like the tragedy seem to be similar. 442 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 4: I guess I think we're going to be seeing a 443 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 4: lot of litigation outside of an Azzat and the and 444 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 4: outside the US and international boards and in other states. 445 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, this has been so helpful. Fernanda, thank you so much. 446 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 4: Thank you. 447 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 5: That's it for this time. We'll be back soon with 448 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 5: another episode. 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