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Speaker 1: Too Much Information is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello everyone, and welcome to Too Much Information, the show

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Speaker 2: that brings you the secret histories and little known fascinating

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Speaker 2: facts and figures behind your favorite TV shows, movies, music,

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Speaker 2: and more. We are your two fava beans of frivolity.

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Speaker 3: There it is.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't wait right at the gate. I'm Alex Hagel, your.

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Speaker 1: Lovers of lotion that would have worked to you, yeah, oh.

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Speaker 2: Never mind, No, your skin suits of scintillating something.

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Speaker 1: And I'm Jordan Runtog and we're here to enthrall you

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Speaker 1: with our acumen.

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Speaker 2: As you may have guessed, today, we were talking about

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Speaker 2: one of the all time Oscar winningest films, a movie

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Speaker 2: with one of the most talked about to least actually

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Speaker 2: on screen performances ever, a little picture that taught us

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Speaker 2: all to live, laugh, love and leaven the well scrubbed,

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Speaker 2: hustling little rube deep within. That's right, we're talking about

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one's The Silence of the Lambs of a

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Speaker 2: perfect Film. First of all, I literally a perfect film.

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Speaker 2: No notes, Great job everyone. I I was trying to

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Speaker 2: think of when I picked this up, and I was

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Speaker 2: remembering that I graduated like right from Goosebumps to like

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Speaker 2: Airport paperbacks because that was like like James Patterson live Custler.

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Speaker 2: I didn't do as much Clive Custler. Mine was. I

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Speaker 2: read Jurassic part because that came out, and then I

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Speaker 2: just started going through the like the paperback racks and

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Speaker 2: just doing like I did a lot of James Patterson.

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Speaker 2: It must be said, rights at a fifth grade level.

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Speaker 2: So there was like nothing that I that was out

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Speaker 2: of my depth.

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Speaker 1: Clive Cusler had raised the Titanic, so that that was

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Speaker 1: my interest.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I did read one of his. I also

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Speaker 2: did Robin Cook. I did all of his, which are

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Speaker 2: very thuddingly boring. He was like an I think he

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Speaker 2: was an epidemiologist or a medical doctor. He wrote outbreak.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know. James Patterson had the whole Oux

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Speaker 2: Cross series where every serial killer has like a different

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Speaker 2: gimmick and a different name, and Robin Cook's one was diseases,

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Speaker 2: so they had like E. Coli and ebola and all

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Speaker 2: this stuff. I read a bunch of those, and then

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Speaker 2: at some point I landed on I found my boy

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Speaker 2: t Harris, my boy Tom's I think my parents had

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Speaker 2: him down in the basement and I just read I read.

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Speaker 1: Him literally in the basement in a well, lowering down

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Speaker 1: lows and forum.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I read Silent. I think I read Red

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Speaker 2: Dragon first. Actually I think I might have read them

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Speaker 2: in order. Yeah, because then the big event of like

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Speaker 2: ninety nine was Hannibal coming out. It was like the

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Speaker 2: biggest most talked about, like paperback sequel of the probably

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Speaker 2: of the decade in all honesty. And then at some

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Speaker 2: point I found my dad, as was his wont had

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Speaker 2: rented this and taped it. So I found like the

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Speaker 2: handwritten Silence of the Lambs VHS dub in our movie cabinet,

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Speaker 2: and I watched it one night while my parents weren't

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Speaker 2: home and it was babysitting. And that was the worst

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Speaker 2: decision I've ever made in my young life at the time.

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Speaker 2: I'm now old. But yeah, so it stuck with me,

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Speaker 2: shall we say, And then I've reread them like five

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Speaker 2: or six times. I think that's the thing is that

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Speaker 2: like Tom Harris is a great writer. Those books are

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Speaker 2: good in a way that he is head and shoulders

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Speaker 2: above your James Patterson. He is head and shoulders above

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Speaker 2: Michael Crichton. Like those books are just well written. And then,

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Speaker 2: of course, you know, then there's every other movie except

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Speaker 2: for the one we're going to talk about today, which

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Speaker 2: are not good.

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Speaker 1: Yes, his books didn't really lend themselves to that many

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Speaker 1: great movies. You know. My entry point to Silence of

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Speaker 1: the Lambs was exactly the same. I was like eleven,

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Speaker 1: twelve years old, and I think I saw Hannibal at

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Speaker 1: an airport bookstore and bought the paperback. I don't even

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Speaker 1: think I made the connection that this was the same

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Speaker 1: guy in Silence of the Lambs.

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Speaker 2: But Hannibal is a slog though. That book is like

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Speaker 2: twelve hundred pages long, right, But it's.

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Speaker 1: Also the one where he feeds like a bad guy

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Speaker 1: to like pigs.

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Speaker 2: Well, the bad guy was trying to feed him to

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Speaker 2: the pigs.

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Speaker 1: Oh right, well, somebody gets seaten in my pigs. That

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Speaker 1: was my main takeaway from that. Several people, right, right, right? Yeah, Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean I mentioned this on several occasions on this podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a big horror guy, yet I love Silence

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Speaker 1: of the Lambs, probably because it's not really horror at all, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it really kind of follows in the continuum

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Speaker 1: of Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho in terms of being more of

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Speaker 1: a suspense thriller.

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Speaker 2: It's a gothic thriller. Gothic thriller, I like that.

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Speaker 1: And there's Hitchcock's famous maximum of you know, you show

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Speaker 1: a bomb under the seats of the main characters, but

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Speaker 1: you don't ever tell the characters about it. That's how

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Speaker 1: you build suspense. And you see this in Hitchcock's movies

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Speaker 1: time and time again, and you see it in Silence

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Speaker 1: of the Lambs all over the place, especially when Clarice

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Speaker 1: is facing off with Buffalo Bill at the end of

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Speaker 1: the movie, when she arrives at Buffalo Bill's house and

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Speaker 1: she's alone and she doesn't know that there's no backup

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Speaker 1: outside you the viewer know, and it's terrifying. Or of course,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the scene that still gives me chills is

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Speaker 1: the night vision scene when she's in his darkened basement

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Speaker 1: and you're seeing her through the point of view of

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Speaker 1: Buffalo Bill's night goggles, and he reaches out and like

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Speaker 1: swipes her hair, and you know that like he's inches

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Speaker 1: from her, can reach out and grab her at any time,

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Speaker 1: but she has no idea. Oh god, it's like it's horrifying.

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Speaker 1: It's the most perfect execution. See what I did there

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Speaker 1: of the hitchcock like bomb under the seat technique. It's

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Speaker 1: so good, it's so perfect. But while Silence of the

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Speaker 1: Lambs builds on these lessons from the Masters, it also

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Speaker 1: subverts the old tropes, particularly as far as gender is concerned.

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Speaker 1: Jodie Foster described the plot of Silence of the Lambs

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Speaker 1: like a fairy tale, like the hero goes off into

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Speaker 1: the dark forest of evil and ignorance in order to

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Speaker 1: rescue the princess and come out the other side with

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Speaker 1: greater wisdom. That's you know, it's a story that we've

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Speaker 1: seen for centuries, and yet with Silence of the Lambs,

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Speaker 1: the plot becomes a feminist metaphor in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 1: As Jonathan Demi, the director says, it's about one woman

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Speaker 1: trying to save another woman and having to confront the

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Speaker 1: dreaded patriarchy and the worst of the male gender is

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Speaker 1: going to be put in Clarice's way. So so many,

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Speaker 1: so many facets to this. It's it's such a well

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Speaker 1: made movie, but it's also so smart too as a text.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and and just even the I mean the I

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Speaker 2: we'll talk about this a little bit later, but just

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Speaker 2: like the way that visually represents all these themes. It

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Speaker 2: was funny. She majored in English in English Lit at Yale,

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Speaker 2: Jodie Foster did so she talked in one of these interviews,

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Speaker 2: she was like, yeah, I was coming at this from

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Speaker 2: like Greek myths and like thinking of oh so much

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Speaker 2: of like yeah, yeah, like the woman, like the girl

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Speaker 2: who leaves the instead of a boy leaving in the

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Speaker 2: here journey and barking on the hero's journey. It's a girl.

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Speaker 2: She's great. I mean, yeah, what do you say. I

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Speaker 2: don't there's like nothing critical. There's no like critical summation

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Speaker 2: about this movie other than it's amazing, imperfect, and you know,

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Speaker 2: then we'll get to the we'll get to the flaw

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Speaker 2: of the big flaw later, from the real life origins

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Speaker 2: of Hannibal Lecter, Buffalo and Clarice Starling to the magnificent

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Speaker 2: production details that make the film such a masterpiece, to

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Speaker 2: the sadly botched rollout of the movie from a dying

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Speaker 2: studio and its triumphant award season run. Here's everything you

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Speaker 2: didn't know about Silence of the Lambs.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 2: I just want to keep saying, oh, I love it

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Speaker 2: over and over again. I have no nothing else to

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Speaker 2: add to this. In twenty nineteen, this is a mate.

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Speaker 2: Thomas Harris first of all, mad props for never giving interviews,

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Speaker 2: never talking about anything, writing like five books and that's it.

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Speaker 2: He gave his first major interview in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Ever, like that was his first. No, I think it

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Speaker 1: was like literally his second, and the other one was

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Speaker 1: like in the seventies or something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And then he had given one on like

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Speaker 2: Public Access TV that's on YouTube. It's really funny. He

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Speaker 2: repeatedly insisted to the New York Times reporter, I've never

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Speaker 2: made anything up when she would ask him about a

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Speaker 2: character or a plot, which is somewhat alarming considering that

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Speaker 2: his biggest contributions to pop culture and literature are the

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Speaker 2: world's most famous fictional cannibal, an ed Geen analog contributing

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Speaker 2: to the trans Panic of the nineteen nineties, and the

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Speaker 2: villain from Red Dragon, who is on that same spectrum

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Speaker 2: of weird. He hallucinates that a famous William Blank painting

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Speaker 2: is commanding him to kill people with his grandmother's false teeth.

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Speaker 1: And then there's the pig guy too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't forget about Mason Verger, the Pig Guy,

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Speaker 2: the hog Guy. Red Dragon is actually the introduction to Lecter,

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Speaker 2: and the entire plot is basically a dry run of Silence,

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Speaker 2: just with a different FBI agent. It's kind of funny

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Speaker 2: in retrospect. The FBI agent in Red Dragon is a

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Speaker 2: guy named Will Graham, and he basically visits Lecter and

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Speaker 2: tries to get hints about the current guy that they

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Speaker 2: are trying to capture, the titular Red Dragon, although the

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Speaker 2: nickname they use for him is the tooth Fairy, which

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Speaker 2: irritates him to no end anyway. Harris grew up in Mississippi

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Speaker 2: and he was working as a journalist in the sixties

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Speaker 2: for a pulp magazine called Argasy, and he was sent

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Speaker 2: on assignment to Mexico to Monterey to the Nuevo Leon

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Speaker 2: State Prison. He explained all this in introduction to the

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Speaker 2: twenty fifth anniversary of Silence of the Lambs. He was

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Speaker 2: sent there to interview a man named Dike's ASQW. Simmons,

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Speaker 2: who was there under a death sentence for killing three people.

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Speaker 2: And this guy Simmons, had attempted to escape the previous year.

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Speaker 2: He had bribed a guard, but the guard betrayed him

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Speaker 2: and shot him. Harris then had a disturbing conversation with

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Speaker 2: the prison surgeon who saved Simmons, who Harris calls doctor Salazar,

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Speaker 2: in which this guy just has very Hannibal Lecter like

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Speaker 2: conversations about the nature of suffering and is talking to

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Speaker 2: Harris about Simmons, was like, do you think he was

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Speaker 2: bullied as a child because he had a cleft lip?

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Speaker 2: Which is interesting because that's the character in Red Dragon

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Speaker 2: the villain and Red Dragon has a high left lip.

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Speaker 2: And then when Harris went to leave the prison, he suppose,

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Speaker 2: I guess remarked to the warden, that's a weird prison.

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Speaker 2: Doctor you got there, And the warden was like, that

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Speaker 2: man is not he is a patient.

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Speaker 1: He is a murderer.

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Speaker 2: He is not our doctor, is he said as a surgeon,

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Speaker 2: he packaged his victim in a surprisingly small box. He

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Speaker 2: will never leave this place. He is insane. The warden

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Speaker 2: was half right. Doctor Salivar was really a man named

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Speaker 2: Alfredo Bali Trevino, and as a medical intern in nineteen

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Speaker 2: fifty nine, he got into an argument with his lover,

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Speaker 2: Jezeus Castillo Ranguel slid his throat, chopped him into pieces

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Speaker 2: and buried him in a parking lot. Trevino was the

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Speaker 2: last person sentenced to death in Mexico in nineteen sixty one,

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Speaker 2: and a Mexican reporter named Diego Osorno helped Thomas Harris

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Speaker 2: look up what happened to this guy. Found out he

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Speaker 2: got out in twenty years So great crime of passion.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but then he did.

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Speaker 2: He stayed in Monterey and he spent the rest of

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Speaker 2: his life treating the poor and the elderly in a

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Speaker 2: like a low cost medical clinic. I refused to discuss

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Speaker 2: his crimes. He was contacted by a different reporter in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and eight and he said, I paid what

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Speaker 2: I had to pay. Now I am just waiting for

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Speaker 2: divine punishment, which came in two thousand and nine. Yes,

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Speaker 2: which came the following year he died. So anyway. Nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty one, Red Dragon Harris's second novel. His first is

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Speaker 2: Black Sunday, which is a terrorist pot boiler. I actually

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Speaker 2: haven't read that one. Writing in The Washington Post, Stephen

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Speaker 2: King called Red Dragon probably the best popular novel to

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Speaker 2: be published in America since The Godfather.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: High praise the film was adopted into a movie called

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Speaker 2: Manhunter in nineteen eighty six. Sorrying csis William Peterson, directed

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Speaker 2: by Michael Mann. It's okay, It's not great. Tom Noonan

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Speaker 2: stars as as the Tooth Fairy and Brian Cox is

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Speaker 2: Lecter and no, not many people liked it. It kind

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Speaker 2: of flopped, but Harris told a friend of his name

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Speaker 2: Anthony Rant and his only televised interview in twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 2: he said, after Red Dragon, I wanted to try to

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Speaker 2: do a woman investigator. During this research trip I made

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Speaker 2: to Quantico into Washington at the time, there was a

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Speaker 2: plague of Starling's in Washington. They were all around the

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Speaker 2: White House. They were soiling everything, and there were just

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Speaker 2: great flocks of them. They were playing different sounds around

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Speaker 2: the White House to try and scare them off. The

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Speaker 2: FBI building, you know, looks like a concrete cage, and

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Speaker 2: they were in every opening in front of the building.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know if that's where the name came from,

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Speaker 2: but they were certainly everywhere.

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Speaker 1: What is Quantico? How would you that's a training facility.

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Speaker 2: It's like their big compound. It's actually I think it's

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Speaker 2: actually in Virginia. But where they have like the fake

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Speaker 2: towns and all the shooting ranges, and like you know,

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Speaker 2: they build like a fake downtown for vehicular stuff, and

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Speaker 2: they have all these like training facilities. It's huge, it's

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Speaker 2: very sprawling. Clarice. Meanwhile, Harris said that came from he

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Speaker 2: said from a woman in the soaps at the time

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Speaker 2: who had a sort of Elationian accent. And I googled

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Speaker 2: this and I went researching this, because of course I did.

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Speaker 2: And as far as I can tell, he is either

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Speaker 2: talking about the actress Clarice Blackburn, who is most famous

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Speaker 2: for dark Shadows, or the character Clarice Hobson from another world.

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Speaker 1: Which one of those have an appalation accent.

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Speaker 2: One of them is from the South, and the other

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Speaker 2: one the characters from the South. So I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Maybe in fifty years, well he'll be dead, but maybe

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Speaker 2: in ten years we'll find out which one Thomas Harris

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Speaker 2: was talking about. Published in nineteen eighty eight, Silence of

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Speaker 2: the Lambs was a huge hit. People who blurbed it

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Speaker 2: ranged from Roald Dall Charlie the Chocolate Factory. Author Roll

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Speaker 2: Dahl noted misanthrope Roald Dahl he did hate everyone who

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Speaker 2: described it as subtle, horrific, and splendid, the best book

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Speaker 2: I have read in a long time. To friggin' David

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Speaker 2: Foster Wallace, wow, who used He put this on his

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Speaker 2: curriculum when he was teaching at Pomona College, and he

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Speaker 2: put Us of Lambs and Red Dragon on his list

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Speaker 2: of ten favorite novels. So to Thomas Harris' entries on

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Speaker 2: the on David Foster Wallas's top ten favorite books of

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Speaker 2: all time, nothing to sneeze at. So Red Dragon was

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Speaker 2: bought by Warner Brothers. And then do you know de

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Speaker 2: Laurentis one of the villains of this story.

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Speaker 1: His grandpa, right, possibly? Yeah, I think you had Delarentis' grandpa.

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Speaker 2: I believed, well, he made a hot TV chef daughter

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Speaker 2: and he made Conan, so I can't fully hate him.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, he really ran really granddaughter. He really ran

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Speaker 2: poor animal into the ground. Dino DeLaurentis picked that up

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Speaker 2: and they made Manhunter, and Manhunter was not a financial success,

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Speaker 2: Hollywood manager and literary agent Bob Bookman told Deadline in

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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. When Silence was published, Thomas had the right

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Speaker 2: to sell a one picture license, but he would have

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Speaker 2: had to change character names in places. Nobody was interested.

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Speaker 2: Even it was way up on the best seller list.

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Speaker 2: It was a combination of the serial killer aspect and

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Speaker 2: the failure of Manhunter. Then one day my colleague Fred

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Speaker 2: Spector asks, are those rights still available? Gene Hackman wants

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Speaker 2: to buy them. Gene called a good friend, Arthur criminal Ryan,

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Speaker 2: and they bought it together fifty to fifty partners. Gene

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Speaker 2: wanted to direct and play Hannibal Lecter.

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Speaker 1: Screenwriter Ted Tally, as luck would have it, knew Thomas

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Speaker 1: Harris because he was a client of his wife's art gallery.

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Speaker 1: That's how you break in the screenwriting my friends. And

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Speaker 1: he was sent in an advanced copy of Silence of

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Speaker 1: the Lambs, and he later told the Washington Post, as

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Speaker 1: soon as I read it, I knew it was a

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Speaker 1: career maker. And he got his agent on the case

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Speaker 1: to adapt the book. And one fan of this book

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Speaker 1: was Gene Hackman. Gene Hackman hates most things, loved Silence

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Speaker 1: of the Lambs novel, he told Empire Magazine in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety one. It's one of the most cinematic books I've

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Speaker 1: ever read. As I read it, the movie was clicking

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Speaker 1: in my mind. But Ted Tally, the guy who ultimately

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Speaker 1: wrote the screenplay for Signs of the Lambs, told Deadline

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Speaker 1: that while Gene Hackman was sure he wanted to direct,

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Speaker 1: he was I still trying to figure out if he

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Speaker 1: wanted to play Hannibal Lecter himself, which would have been wild.

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Speaker 1: But he was also saying that maybe he would play

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Speaker 1: Clarice's FBI superior Jack Crawford and get an unnamed and

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Speaker 1: unspecified Bobby to play Hannibal Lecter. Ted Talley continued the Deadline,

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Speaker 1: I didn't have the nerve to ask Bobby who Bobby Duvall,

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Speaker 1: who was indeed up for the running at one point,

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Speaker 1: Bobby Redford, Bobby de Niro. He just assumed I would

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Speaker 1: know who Bobby was. And then when Gene Hackman quit

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Speaker 1: the project while I was writing my first draft, he

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Speaker 1: never called me. I just heard one day from my

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Speaker 1: agent that Gene Hackman dropped out of the project. And

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Speaker 1: Genackman dropped out for reasons that are kind of vague,

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Speaker 1: but one theory is that he dropped out days after

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Speaker 1: losing an Academy Award for Mississippi Burning, and so he

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Speaker 1: was really unsure about doing another film that so deeply

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Speaker 1: plumbed the depths of human darkness. But there's another off,

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Speaker 1: repeated reason that he may have dropped out. Producer Bob

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Speaker 1: Bookman recalled the deadline. I got a call saying, you're

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Speaker 1: not gonna believe this. Gene Hackman's daughter read the book

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Speaker 1: and she called her father and said, Daddy, you're not

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Speaker 1: making this movie. So ultimately the studio gave Gene back

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Speaker 1: the money that he put up for it. I think

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Speaker 1: he put up like two hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

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Speaker 3: M h.

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Speaker 2: I recall, Yeah, Gene must be whipped by his daughter.

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Speaker 2: Imagine being one of the A list stars and your

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Speaker 2: daughter calls you up and he's like, no, you're not

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Speaker 2: making this movie.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it is a movie where he would have

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Speaker 1: to eat somebody's face.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't eat any faces in the movie. He just

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Speaker 2: bites that guy and then sprays pepper spray into it.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure Hanniballeckter is eating a phase. Maybe not that face, but.

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Speaker 2: He probably swallowed a little bit of it.

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Speaker 1: But it just gets in there. It's like stuck in

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Speaker 1: your teeth.

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Speaker 2: You know, And you gotta spend the night, the whole night,

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Speaker 2: like working a piece of loose. Oh what is that

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Speaker 2: that popcorn? And you're like, oh, is that a security guard?

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Speaker 2: Is that a Memphis cop? Oh? They could do them

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Speaker 2: with a dry rub, a nice Memphis dry rube. Here's

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Speaker 2: a pitch. Here's a pitch.

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Speaker 1: We reboot to the Lambs instead of Guy Fieri. So

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Speaker 1: that's how O Ryan got the rights. They bought out

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Speaker 1: Gene Hackman, Poor old Gene Hackman. Who made What did

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Speaker 1: he make instead? Probably something bad?

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Speaker 2: Oh, great question, Great question, Jordan. Let's check out his IMDb. Well,

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Speaker 2: this would have been ninety eighty eighty nine. Let's see

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Speaker 2: what his.

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Speaker 1: What was his run between eighty nine and ninety two.

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Speaker 2: Well, the next movie he did was called The Package,

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Speaker 2: and then something called Loose Cannons, and then Postcards from

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Speaker 2: the Edge. A string of flops. Okay, answer your questions,

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Speaker 2: is this? Yeah, a string of flops? And then his

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Speaker 2: next one was Unforgiven when he was h and then

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Speaker 2: he did The Firm. But yeah, man, So Gene Hackman's

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Speaker 2: loss was O'Ryan Pictures gain and Jonathan Demi's gain. Jonathan

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Speaker 2: Demi later told Deadline God blessed Gene Hackman's daughter if

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Speaker 2: that's true, and that's what I've always heard about Gene

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Speaker 2: dropping out, and to Empire Magazine, Jonathan Demi added, I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have offered it to me as director, and this

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Speaker 2: is their Jonathan Demi was working with Orian Pictures after

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six is something Wild, which is a comedy.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty eight, It's Married to the Mob, another

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Speaker 2: kind of very broad comedy, if I recall, and then

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Speaker 2: he pitched them a script that he wanted to make.

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Speaker 2: I don't actually know what script that was, which Orion

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Speaker 2: Pictures tentatively agreed to, but only if he agreed to

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Speaker 2: read Silence of the Lambs first and consider directing that,

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Speaker 2: which is how he wound up doing it. One hurdle

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Speaker 2: to get into the film was the villain of this story,

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Speaker 2: Dino di Laurentis. He had produced Manhunter and he still

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Speaker 2: owned the rights to lect Her, which will come back

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Speaker 2: to later. Why I keep calling him a villain. They

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Speaker 2: toyed with changing the character's name. They didn't find anything

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Speaker 2: to work, and so Bob Bookman, this literary agent manager,

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Speaker 2: went to DeLaurentis hat in hand to ask for permission

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Speaker 2: to use them sons charge. And you know, Dino, he

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Speaker 2: didn't like that.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe he signed off on that.

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Speaker 2: I think they did not think it was gonna because

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Speaker 2: the last thing that they had was Manhunter, and they

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Speaker 2: were like, well yeah, but still they gave it to

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Speaker 2: him for free and regretted it ever since and have

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Speaker 2: embarked on the past thirty years of money grubbing horses

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Speaker 2: to get revenge for it. Anyway, Jonathan Demi initially wanted

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Speaker 2: Michelle Pfeiffer, which is hilarious. He'd worked with her un

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Speaker 2: married to the Mob, but Feiffer for the same reason

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Speaker 2: Gene Hackman, she turned it down, she told New Yorker

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one. With Silence of the Lambs, and

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Speaker 2: here she invents a word, I was trepidacious. There was

401
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Speaker 2: such evil in that film. The thing I most regret

402
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Speaker 2: is missing the opportunity to do another film with Jonathan.

403
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Speaker 2: It was that evil one in the end that at

404
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Speaker 2: the end of the film, evil ruled out. I was

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable with that ending. I didn't want to put that

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Speaker 2: out into the world. Does evil win?

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Speaker 1: In Silence of the Lambs?

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Speaker 2: I think she meant, like Hannibal was free gets a little,

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Speaker 2: that's a that's still a bad reading in the movie.

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Speaker 1: Though, Yeah, I'm trying to think, like, on the surface,

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Speaker 1: I think that would have been a terrible choice for

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Speaker 1: Clarice Starling, which was, yes, it would have been well, no,

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Speaker 1: she was also in she was in dangerous lines.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that movie's not this though, Nor does she

415
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Speaker 2: turn into Jodie Foster caliber performance on this.

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Speaker 1: Okay, No, all right, that's fine. I saw her. They

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Speaker 1: were considering Gena Davis, which is kind of weird, and

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Speaker 1: Meg Ryan, which is extremely weird. This must have been

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Speaker 1: when she was making her jump to uh, semi serious

420
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Speaker 1: roles like this was probably around she probably instead of

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Speaker 1: making this made When a Man Loves a Woman Once

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Speaker 1: she played the uh, the recovering alcoholic with Andy Garcia,

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Speaker 1: the movie's devastating real bummer.

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Speaker 2: I would have accepted Geena Davis. She's tall enough. Yeah, anyway,

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Speaker 2: screenwriter Ted Talley told Deadline, Jodie Foster was always in

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Speaker 2: my mind. It was no brainer. She had just won

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Speaker 2: It was a no brainer. She had just won an

428
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,399
Speaker 2: Academy Award for The Accused. She was the right age

429
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,680
Speaker 2: for the character, She had the right intelligence to play

430
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 2: somebody like that. I thought she was just a fabulous

431
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 2: fabulous actress. And she actually even called me while I

432
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,879
Speaker 2: was writing the first draft. We had never met, and

433
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 2: she called me to campaign for the part. That was

434
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 2: before Jonathan was on board. Jonathan initially wanted Michelle Pfeiffer.

435
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 2: I said, she's too beautiful. I think she was also

436
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:11,919
Speaker 2: like ten years too old. Like they were looking for

437
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 2: someone who could convincingly be a trainee, like out of college,

438
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 2: and Michelle Feiffer was in her thirties. But Foster had

439
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 2: been lobbying for the rights for the film even before

440
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 2: Jonathan Demi had gotten involved, she told Variety Fair in

441
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,920
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. Hackman dropped out after I had made

442
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,120
Speaker 2: it known I wanted to be involved in this film,

443
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 2: and Oriyan immediately sent it to Jonathan Demi. I was furious.

444
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 2: I was like, oh no, not Jonathan Demi. He won't

445
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 2: want me, He'll want someone else. And so I flew

446
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,640
Speaker 2: to New York and said, I'd like to be your

447
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 2: second choice. I'd won the Oscar for the Accused and everything.

448
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 2: It wasn't like I was a nobody, but it was

449
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 2: really something that I ran after. Empire Magazine did a

450
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 2: making of around the time in this movie and That's

451
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 2: where one of the places I'm quoting from they quoted

452
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 2: her as telling Demi at their very first meeting, there

453
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,400
Speaker 2: are reasons I want to make this movie. There are

454
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 2: very personal reasons, not just because it's a good part.

455
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 2: So a lot of people have surmised that it is

456
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,879
Speaker 2: because it all ties back to what we like to

457
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 2: call the John Hinckley quandary.

458
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: No, the John John Lee experience my favorite cover band.

459
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yes, John Hinckley Junior's pre music career as

460
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 2: a want to be presidential assassin. I didn't know this

461
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 2: until I was researching this. Jodi Foster had another stalker

462
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 2: like a few years later. Okay, so I guess, quick,

463
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 2: quick historical summation, most people know this is this the

464
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 2: thing people remember that has to be it's like a

465
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 2: huge okay, yeah. John Hinckley Junior was a deranged man

466
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 2: who developed a crush on Jodie Foster after seeing her

467
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 2: in Taxi Driver where she was fourteen.

468
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I feel like that kind of gets I

469
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 1: guess after like trying to kill the whole president thing

470
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 1: that it gets out shown.

471
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's gross and the way that he got it

472
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: in his head to impress her was by killing Ronald

473
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 2: Reagan and he attempted to do so. So and now

474
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 2: he's touring the mid level venues of the music venues

475
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 2: of the country playing Beatles covers. So you know who

476
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: says it Beatles covers? Oh yeah, he sinks covers.

477
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: Well, I didn't know it was Beatles covers. Oh, God's

478
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 1: see if he's got a setlist out there. Oh no,

479
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: it was Joni Mitchell, that was the one. Both sides.

480
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 2: Now. He said he was influenced by the Beatles and

481
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 2: of course Bob Dylan, but the cover he posted was

482
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 2: Jonny Mitchell. Yeah. So I'm so happy this guy is

483
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 2: more of a music career than I do. Anyway, So,

484
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 2: Jodie Foster had another stalker when she was a Yale.

485
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 2: A guy named Michael Richardson targeted her while she was

486
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 2: enrolled there taking a break from acting, majoring in English literature,

487
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: and so she essentially wanted to do a movie with

488
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 2: that she would have a woman playing the protector role.

489
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,239
Speaker 2: And she had. The other thing too, is she had

490
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: gotten close to a lot of these FBI agents. She's empire.

491
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: The thing that I really love about Clarice Starling is

492
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 2: that this may be the first, one of the first

493
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 2: times I've seen a female hero that is not a

494
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 2: female steroid version of Arnold Schwartzenegger. This is not a

495
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 2: woman running around in her underwear with a machine gun.

496
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,239
Speaker 2: Clarice is very competent and she is very human. She

497
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: combats the villain with her emotionality, intuition, her frailty, and vulnerability.

498
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 2: I don't think there's ever been a female hero like that.

499
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 2: As I mentioned, she grew close to several FBI agents

500
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 2: who are you know, assigned to her after the Hinckley thing.

501
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 2: Some of them even went to a play that she

502
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 2: did at Yale, which hondadorable. But because of that, she

503
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 2: had one big caveat for Jonathan dem She told him that,

504
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 2: unlike Married to the Mob, you can't portray these FBI

505
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 2: people as goofy Republicans. If you want me to be

506
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: your hero, you've got to portray them in the correct way.

507
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: And one of the things that Demi did to really

508
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 2: highlight how at odds Starling is in the world of

509
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 2: the FBI and the world at large and law enforcement

510
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 2: is that they deliberately cast people to be in all

511
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 2: the men in scenes with her to be like extra tall.

512
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 2: Worked with the casting agent Howard Fruer to find men

513
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 2: who would just like conspicuously be much taller than her,

514
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: which isn't difficult. She's only five to three, but you

515
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 2: know she's whenever she gets into the FBI elevator, everyone

516
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 2: there is like eighteen inches towering over her. Then the

517
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,719
Speaker 2: other one that I picked up recently was there's like

518
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 2: that scene where she is literally a punching bag as

519
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 2: part of their training. There's they could have filmed any

520
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 2: number of other like FBI training scenarios, and they put

521
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 2: they do it a quick insert where she's called out

522
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 2: of a class where she is holding a punching bag

523
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 2: and getting kicked and punched by male agents. So very

524
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 2: on the nose but effective.

525
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: Jonathan Demi later said the moment he knew he wanted

526
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: Jodie Foster for the part was when she paid him

527
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 1: a visit to lobby for the role of Clarice Starling,

528
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: and he said that he knew quite literally when she

529
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: walked in the door. He's quoted as saying, I watched

530
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: her coming down the hall towards me, the sturdy little

531
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: figures striding along with his determined look on her face

532
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 1: and I just thought that's her, that's Clarice. Also, there's

533
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: a slightly less charitable version of the story where Ryan Pictures,

534
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: the production company making this movie, wasn't sold on Anthony

535
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: Hopkins in the role as Lecter, which we'll get to

536
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: in a minute, and Jonathan Demi wasn't sold on Jody

537
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: Foster for the part of Clarice. So the Orion chief said,

538
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: all right, listen, Jonathan, I'm gonna make it real easy

539
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: for you. If you take Jody Foster, I'll take Anthony Hopkins.

540
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: So it could have just been a political move on

541
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 1: Jonathan Demi's part. I like, yeah, I know, I hope

542
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 1: it's not that. Though, Ironically, for all of her personal

543
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: connections to the role Clarice, Jody Foster didn't think that

544
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: this part was Oscar bait. Screenwriter Ted Talley recalls for

545
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: telling him this isn't the kind of part that people

546
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: win Academy Awards for just because it's not very showy. Wrong.

547
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: One of the few times Jody Foster was wrong. Funnily enough,

548
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: for all of his doubts surrounding Jody Foster in the

549
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: lead role, Jody Foster herself was a little wary of

550
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: Jonathan Demi's directorial credentials because of his background in comedy,

551
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: and this was also compounded by the fact that Jonathan

552
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: Demi was not a believer in rehearsals, so they only

553
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: had one read through by the time they got in

554
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: front of the cameras, which must have been scary. Jodi

555
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: Foster later said, at first, the ambiance on the set,

556
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: which was very nice and playful, was off putting for

557
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: me because Jonathan makes a lot of comedies and likes

558
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: Hawaiian shirt Fridays and likes kidding around and practical jokes.

559
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: We were making this dark drama and I was worried

560
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,959
Speaker 1: that everybody was going to bring this comedic sensibility to it.

561
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: I love the idea that, like they're in Buffalo Bill's basement,

562
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: everyone's wearing Hawaiian shirts, although I think it was done

563
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: in January during like the coldest winter in Pittsburgh on record,

564
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: at like fourteen degrees below zero, so maybe not Hawaiian

565
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: shirts on that stage.

566
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: Jody Foster's most direct model for Chares was a woman

567
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 2: named Special Agent Mary Ann Krauts, who she met at

568
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: Quantico while she was doing her research, and Kraus told

569
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 2: people magazine in nineteen ninety one, we went out to dinner.

570
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 2: In My first and lasting in pressure was that Foster

571
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: was very sharp and eager to learn, not just about

572
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: the FBI, but about me. She really wanted to get

573
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: a picture of a female agent. She asked me about

574
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 2: my family. I'm married to a former agent and have

575
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: two step children. She wanted to know how tough the

576
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,479
Speaker 2: training was for women and if I felt like one

577
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: of the guys. I told her yes, but that it

578
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 2: was important to maintain some form of femininity to keep

579
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: your identity. The film secured cooperation from the FBI after

580
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: the bureau read the script and Foster practiced on the

581
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 2: actual Quantico training course, which is how she's able to

582
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 2: apparently effortlessly scale that rope wall. I would each on

583
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: one of those things. Oh yeah, to tell you that

584
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 2: right now.

585
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, this whole thing is so interesting to me. Apparently,

586
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: this was one of the first movie productions allowed at

587
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: the FBI training facility because the FBI saw this as

588
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: a potential recruitment tool, not unlike the Air Force with

589
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: Top Gun, and they were really having a hard time

590
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: recruiting female members, so they really thought that this was

591
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: a great opportunity. The production Steff of Silence of the

592
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: Lambs described their relationship with the FBI as quote cooperative

593
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: and guarded and yeah. Jodie Foster apparently asked the special

594
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: agent she was shadowing, Mary Ann Krause, if there was

595
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: ever a moment during the day for any sort of

596
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: emotional release when you're in the midst of this really

597
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: hardcore training, and Kraus replied, only when you're by yourself,

598
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: tears are not really allowed. Hence the scene and Silence

599
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: of the Lambs where Clurice breaks down alone in her car,

600
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: which I believe is the only time she ever breaks

601
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: in the entire movie, aside from when she's with Lecter.

602
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, Foster and Anthony Hopkins chemistry was helped by Demi's

603
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 2: claustrophobic way of shooting the actors and their scenes together.

604
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 2: He said, by the time I got to Silence of

605
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: the Lambs, I was madly in love with close ups

606
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: because I'm madly in love with actors, and a basic

607
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 2: premise of Silence of the Lambs is the story about

608
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 2: two people fighting their way into each other's heads. So

609
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: the close ups and the subjective camera stuff that was

610
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 2: something cinematographer tak Fujimoto and I were excited about Jonathan

611
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 2: wanted to use this technique that Hitchcock talked about, where

612
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 2: you have the actors use the camera as the other person.

613
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: Jody Foster told Vanity Fair and I think there was

614
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 2: something really interesting about that for the film. But that

615
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 2: also meant that Tony and I couldn't see each other

616
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: for a lot of the close ups. We were looking

617
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 2: into a camera lens and the other person was just

618
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: a voice in the background. They filmed Lecter and Starling's

619
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 2: first interaction down in the dungeon on Hopkins' first day

620
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 2: of filming because it was plexiglass. Because the way that

621
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,959
Speaker 2: this film was constructed, they actually had to lock him

622
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: in there, so he was in there for an entire

623
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: day of shooting at a clip. It is really interesting

624
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,959
Speaker 2: to me about the plexiglass and stuff because when they

625
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: move him to Memphis, which is not actually in Memphis

626
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 2: in the movie, you know he's actually in the cage.

627
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 2: To use the make the site lines of the bars

628
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: work for them, they zoom even closer in it's a

629
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 2: tighter close up, and it's really interesting the way that

630
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,239
Speaker 2: it works in the film because like early on, when

631
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: he's still in Baltimore, you know, you see their full bodies,

632
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: you see them them standing, and they're kind of in

633
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: conversation distance. And then by the time they get to

634
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: that point in the film at their most intimate moment

635
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: when she's talking about you know what gives the film

636
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: its name, when she's talking about her recollections of growing

637
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 2: up on on a ranch, they are so close into

638
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: each other's faces as like, and it looks like they

639
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: might as well be like face to face. And it's

640
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 2: just such an incredible way of having the look and

641
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 2: shots of the film mirror the story and the thematic progression. Gosh,

642
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: it's neat.

643
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, the production designer said they were really happy with

644
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,719
Speaker 1: the plexiglass because it's just it's even more terrifying than

645
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: bars because there's nothing visually between them. And they love

646
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: the fact that it made Hannibal look like a specimen,

647
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: like he was a shark in a tank or something.

648
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: They were also really annoyed when when the sound guy

649
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: I've read was annoyed when she proposed that, because the

650
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 2: guy was like, well, occurd, Now we're gonna have the

651
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: whole ruth. And so they did the thing with drilling.

652
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: They were like, okay, well drill air holes in it,

653
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: and I guess Mike right above that. And then she

654
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: was like and then we just and Anthony just immediately

655
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 2: did this like sniffing thing with the with the air holes,

656
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 2: and we were like, that's a pro at work. This

657
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: production designer, Christy's a she's really interesting. She told the

658
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: Museum of Moving Image in an interview that they did

659
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 2: a lot of scouting out west to try and find

660
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 2: this ranch that Clarice talks about running away from, because

661
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 2: initially they were gonna film scenes there and then insert

662
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 2: them as cutaways, right like, as she's telling the story

663
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 2: of trying to rescue his lamb and getting caught, they

664
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: were gonna cut to, you know, a young actress doing

665
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: the young like they do in other scenes. But then

666
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 2: after he filmed Foster and Hopkins doing that, he was like, no,

667
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 2: we're not doing that. Scrap it. There's no reason to

668
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 2: cut away from this.

669
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, he told the screenwriter if I cut away from

670
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: those performances, I'll be drummed out of the director's guild.

671
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: I cannot cut away from those faces for a flashback.

672
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: He literally said, Jodie Foster could win an Academy Award

673
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: for this acting scene. Hilariously, in the middle of that

674
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: scene where you know it's the pivotal moment of the movie,

675
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: gives the movie its title, where she's just describing this

676
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: early trauma. It's just like mind melding of the highest

677
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: order with Hannibal Lecter. In the middle of that scene,

678
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: a grip in the background dropped a wrench, and every

679
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: the whole crew just like flinched. But Jody Foster was

680
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: so in it she didn't and didn't lose focus and

681
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: kept on going with their speech. And then when Jonathan

682
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: Demi said cut, she whirled around. I was like, what

683
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: the hell was that. It's amazing, But that's the take

684
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: that was used in the movie, and I watched it

685
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 1: a couple times and I can't hear like the clatter

686
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: in the background. I don't know if they looped the

687
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: audio or what.

688
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: But that's so funny, man. I'm obsessed with seeing if

689
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 2: I can find some imperceptible like twitch of her eye

690
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 2: or something in that scene. I tried, yeah, uh.

691
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: You know, probably could Hannibal elector that's true.

692
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: Oh, don't don't ruin the blink thing yet. We gotta

693
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: get to wink thing. You're right sorry. Despite their chemistry,

694
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 2: or more likely because of it. Jody Foster explained on

695
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 2: The Graham Norton Show that Anthony and I got to

696
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: the end of the movie and had never really had

697
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 2: a conversation. I avoided him as much as I could.

698
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 2: On the last day of filming, they finally spoke. He

699
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 2: came up to me and I said, I don't know.

700
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 2: I sort of had a tear in my eye. I

701
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 2: was like, I was really scared of you, and he

702
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 2: said I was scared of you.

703
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,240
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we'll talk more about that. But it's crazy.

704
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 1: This was really Anthony Hopkins' first like a big budget

705
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: Hollywood movie.

706
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. After he cleaned up, wasn't he

707
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 2: like in the running for like number three drunkest Thespian

708
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: after Like, uh, I was.

709
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: Like seventy five. I think he got clean.

710
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,439
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I remember that from that Hell Razors book

711
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 2: where he was like, right, he talked about like quitting

712
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: cocaine after a really bad night.

713
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 1: Anyway, get on quick cocaine after a really good night.

714
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 2: I want to see young Anthony Hopkins.

715
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: Was he like, oh yeah, he was in the line

716
00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: in Winter, which rules and movies incredible with Catherine Hepburn,

717
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: which is one of the people that he based the

718
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: voice for Hannibal Elector on.

719
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's kind of always looked like a murderer. I

720
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 2: can't really even imagine him looking like I was like,

721
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,439
Speaker 2: is was he cute? It's like, no, he just already

722
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 2: like at twenty five, he looked like a psychopath. Anyway.

723
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: Demi told Deadline that there was tremendous interest in the

724
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 2: role of Hannibal Elector, with actors ranging from Dustin Hoffman Nope,

725
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 2: to Morgan Freeman. Sure, but he said Sean Connery, Yes,

726
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: was the only actor I thought, the only other person

727
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 2: I thought could be amazing for this. Connery has that

728
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 2: fierce intelligence and also that serious physicality, so to take

729
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: the most commercial path because Connory was flying very high

730
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 2: at the time we sent the script. Sean connery first

731
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 2: word came back shortly that he thought it was disgusting

732
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 2: and wouldn't dream of playing that part. Show Chlorice have

733
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 2: the lamb stop screaming terrible. That would have been an

734
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 2: awful smart again, I love he's smart. I don't think so. No,

735
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: he just certainly not smart enough to not keep talking

736
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 2: about how okay it is to hit women in the

737
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,919
Speaker 2: press repeatedly. Certainly not smart enough to not take league

738
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: of extraordinary gentlemen.

739
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: He was smart enough thought to do Uh, Indiana Jones

740
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: and the Crystal Skull.

741
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: That's true. I want to find more handial lines I

742
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 2: can do, is Sean Connery? What did megs say to you?

743
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 2: Multiple megs? Just Courtsy's just curtsy is unspeakably ugly to me.

744
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 2: I would never have had that happen to you. What

745
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 2: what's yeah? Yeah? What's his when he's uh, oh, he's

746
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 2: talking to the senator?

747
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: Love you?

748
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 2: So?

749
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: Yeah? One more thing? Oh, we could do.

750
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,919
Speaker 2: This all day. I'm sorry, I'm sure you have things

751
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 2: to do.

752
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: I've also seen we've we talked earlier about how apparently

753
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: Robert Duvall was up for consideration for the part of

754
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: Hannibal Lecter. They were apparently worried he would push it

755
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,720
Speaker 1: too far, despite the fact that they were also considering

756
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: Dustin Hoffmin Morgan Freeman, Sean Connery, and also Jack Nicholson.

757
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 2: Oh, that would have been terrible who never responded to

758
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,919
Speaker 2: the requests. So, but like Bobby Duvall was the one

759
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:18,919
Speaker 2: that they were worried about. I just, yeah, he would

760
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: have been too broad.

761
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: How would how would uh Jack as Hannibal elective?

762
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 2: Sounded uh so, Clorice. I know, I don't think I

763
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: can pull it off. I don't think it's not gonna

764
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 2: do it. Give me a second, maybe it'll come to it.

765
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 2: I need a line. I need a line to say,

766
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: I'm really hung up on this chunk on everything. We

767
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 2: begin to we.

768
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 4: Begin to cove it by what we see every day. No,

769
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 4: that is incidental, Clarice, you would have been just he

770
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 4: sounded like a nagging asshole. Yeah, No, Clarice, that is incidental.

771
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 4: Read Marcus, read Marcus Aurelius.

772
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 1: It's a little bit Napoleon dynamite kind of Do you

773
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 1: just feel like a god in there?

774
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 2: God, I gonna find more to do with Connery. It's

775
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 2: gonna be my new parlor game. You know who would

776
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 2: have been great? Who threw in here was Jeremy Irons.

777
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he turned it down because he just played

778
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,399
Speaker 1: Klaus falm Bulow and he didn't want to get type

779
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 1: cast as a as a battie. But then he went

780
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: and made Lolita, and.

781
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 2: He had been in Dead Ringers, so I think he

782
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: probably didn't want to hit another gory horror thing on

783
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: the on the you know.

784
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: You know what, you're good enough. You kind of had

785
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: it like, you know what you look like with your

786
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: good bag and your cheap shoes. You look like a rube.

787
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: You gotta do it as him as Whitey Bulger though

788
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 2: from Yeah, that's hard. A Shenshish taker tried to pech,

789
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 2: can you.

790
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: Morgan Freeman, is that that's a.

791
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 2: Sorry? Am I read? Am I supposed to be read?

792
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: I'm still trying to all right, Yeah, we're here, by

793
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: the way, but I'm still trying to.

794
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 2: Demi had had Jonathan Demi had had Hopkins in mind

795
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 2: as well, motivated by his role as the doctor in

796
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 2: The Elephant Man. Uh sure, he said. I was in

797
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 2: the theater in London. My agent, Anthony Hopkins told Vanity Fair.

798
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 2: I was in the theater in London. My agent phoned

799
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 2: me and he said, I'm sending a script over to

800
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: the theater called The Silence of the Lambs. I said,

801
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,919
Speaker 2: is it a children's story? I didn't know. No, he said,

802
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 2: it's with Jodie Foster. I said, oh so. I came

803
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 2: into the dressing room and I started reading it. And

804
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: I got through about ten pages when Crawford said the

805
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 2: FBI agent, you don't want Hannibal Lecter inside your head.

806
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 2: I thought, ooh, that's it. I phoned my agent and

807
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 2: I said, is this an offer? He said, well, it's

808
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,439
Speaker 2: not a big part. I said, I don't care.

809
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: Apparently he wasn't sure if it was an offer or

810
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 1: just like something that considers, so he stopped reading after.

811
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 2: About ten pages because he didn't want to.

812
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: He just was trying to spare himself with disappointment if

813
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: he didn't get the role, which makes me sad.

814
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder if you read the did you ever

815
00:40:58,600 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 2: talk about reading the book?

816
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 1: Think so?

817
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: Anyway, Jonathan Demi told Deadline Anthony was doing M Butterfly

818
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: in London. I flew over and we agreed to do

819
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 2: the work together. And Hopkins and Foster didn't even meet

820
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 2: each other until the first table read. She told Vanity Fair,

821
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 2: I didn't really get a proper meet with Tony. So

822
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 2: we're sitting across from each other and he launches in

823
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 2: and we start the reading and I was just petrified.

824
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 2: I was kind of too scared to talk to him

825
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 2: after that.

826
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: But we touched on this earlier Anthony Hopkins was a

827
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: little nervous himself, because it's really difficult to remember. When

828
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: he was cast in Silence of the Lambs. He was

829
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: ready to give up on Hollywood for good. Late eighties

830
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: movies like The Bounty and The Good Father and a

831
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: Chorus of Disapproval were all bombs, and he'd gone back

832
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,879
Speaker 1: to theater work in London just assuming that his film

833
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: career was over. So now here I was working on

834
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 1: his first big budget Hollywood movie with a newly minted

835
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: Oscar winner, and so he later admitted that he had

836
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: a pretty big case of the nerves this whole time.

837
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 2: We had to read through in the boardroom at Oriyan

838
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 2: a week before we started shooting, Jonathan Demie told Deadline

839
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 2: all the executives were there electricity in that room coming

840
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,240
Speaker 2: off of what Hopkins was doing. He had found lecter

841
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 2: and I remember when he delivered the last line, the

842
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 2: room was just silent.

843
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: Well, can you do the last line as Sean Connery.

844
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 2: I'm having an old friend over for shabah. That's good.

845
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: Wow, lovely changing dinner to supper so you can get

846
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: the in there. Yeah, that's a pro wow. Good, nice time.

847
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,439
Speaker 1: There's a great story from this early read through where

848
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: Jodie Foster starts to cry as she tells the story

849
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: of the slaughtering of the Spring Lambs. Again, it's the

850
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: scene that we spoke about earlier, and Eddie Hopkins in

851
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: character took out a handkerchief from his pocket and slid

852
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: it across the table just as the scene continued, And

853
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: those presents said it was just such a powerful moment

854
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: between the two because it really offered a taste of

855
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: the they're funny chemistry that borders on it's like paternal

856
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: but also kind of romantic, but also kind of and

857
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: it's weird. So their relationship is fascinating.

858
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 2: Someone said she has three fathers in this movie. She

859
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 2: has her actual dad who like haunts the entire story

860
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,720
Speaker 2: and drives her to be a law man and save

861
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 2: old girl. Uh is her name?

862
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. I never can remember her name. Caroline.

863
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 2: Maybe No, I don't Debbie, just keep going. I'll tell

864
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 2: you when you're closes. Is it Catherine? I thought the

865
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 2: senator's name. The senator's name is Catherine, though, no, it

866
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 2: is Catherine. It is Katherine. We're talking about Oh yeah, yeah,

867
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 2: so I was reading. I forget if this was someone.

868
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 2: I forget if it was Demi or someone, but they said,

869
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 2: you know, Clarice has three fathers in this film. She

870
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 2: has her her dad, who she talks about being inspired

871
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 2: to go into law enforcement because of and his death

872
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 2: obviously haunts her still haunts the so he Lingers over

873
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 2: the entire movie. She has Jack Crawford, who's her career dad,

874
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 2: and they also have kind of a weird thing because

875
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 2: Scott Glenn is such a haughty uh. And then she

876
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 2: has lect who is sort of pushing her to be

877
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 2: come the best version of herself that she can and

878
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 2: giving her kind of the reinforcement that she lacked growing up,

879
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 2: saying like, I mean, yeah, what is a dad if

880
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 2: not someone to say things like the world is more

881
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 2: interesting with you in it. You know, wait, I wanted

882
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 2: to do. You know what you look like to me

883
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 2: with your good bag and your cheap shoes. You look

884
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 2: like a rube, A well scrubbed, hustling rube with a

885
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 2: little taste. Good nutrition has given you some length of bone.

886
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 2: But you're not more than one generation from poor white trash,

887
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: are you, Agent Starling.

888
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 1: It's somehow more sinister as Sean Connery.

889
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 2: I'm leaning into it all the way to the end.

890
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 2: All those tedious, sticky fumblings, that set of cows, God,

891
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 2: all those.

892
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: I can'tchnic is too grossy for me.

893
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hopkins told Empire there were two, maybe three voices

894
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 2: that I heard for Lecter. I thought of him as

895
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 2: a combination of ca Atherne, Hepburn, Truman Capoti and how

896
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: from two thousand and one. That's so perfect that it

897
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 2: is it really is? Yeah, yeah, because I didn't realize.

898
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 2: You know, this is maybe a geographical distinction that gets lost.

899
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 2: But Hannibal Electors from Baltimore or lived in Baltimore. I

900
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 2: think he's originally from Lithuania, if I'm remembering his fictional

901
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 2: character biography. But he does a little bit of a

902
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 2: Southern accent at different points, like the Loveest Suit, like

903
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,359
Speaker 2: some of the different things, like he's almost mocking them. Though,

904
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 2: well that's exactly it. You're like, can't tell if he's

905
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 2: doing it, doesn't as an insult.

906
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 3: Uh.

907
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 1: Well, there was a moment when he when he does

908
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: the bit about like just one generation away from poor

909
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: white trash and he.

910
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,240
Speaker 2: Was a daddy of minor did a stink of the lamb.

911
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: Apparently Tony Fonster got like genuinely annoyed because she was like,

912
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: this guy's mocking me.

913
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was on the set and he was. Yes.

914
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: He said, in terms of his physical elector's physical apperiod,

915
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 2: it was Jonathan's idea that he'd be pale, and he

916
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 2: convinced me to stay out of the sun. It was

917
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 2: my idea to give him dark, slicked back hair. I

918
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 2: also wanted him to wear a very tight prison uniform

919
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 2: that would suggest total control. A costume designer, Colleen Atwood

920
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: told The Hollywood Reporter with Anthony Hopkins, the fit of

921
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 2: the costumes was very precise. We had a lot of fittings,

922
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 2: even though it was a prison uniform. We felt that

923
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 2: Hannibal would somehow make it look like his clothes were

924
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 2: made to order for him, even though he was in prison.

925
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: Anthony Hopkins said he was very big on brightly colored

926
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: white outfits like the one that he wears in the

927
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: man cage when he eats the CoP's face, because he

928
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: said it reminded him of the doctor who took out

929
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: his tonsils as a boy, which was an experience the

930
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: left of traumatized. It's a funny hearing Annibal lecter talk

931
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: about the things that scare.

932
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 2: Him, concluding one of his drama teachers. Oh yeah, when

933
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: I was in the Royal Academy, there was a teacher.

934
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 2: We had a Stanislavsky method teacher, and he was lethal.

935
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 2: Hopkins told Vanity Fair. He was very charismatic and he

936
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 2: was deadly. He would rip you apart. He would just

937
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,839
Speaker 2: take you apart intellectually. He'd just smirk and he'd say, no,

938
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 2: do it again. His name is Christopher Fettis. He's retired.

939
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 2: Now you do a piece, and he'd say do it again. No,

940
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 2: I based it on him. No clarice, This teacher had

941
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 2: stayed in my conscience all my life. I got a

942
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 2: phone call afterwards, Tony, it's a wonderful performance. Did you

943
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: base that on me? By any chance?

944
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 1: He's still alive? Apparently?

945
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 2: No, that is incidental. No, that is incidental. Do you

946
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 2: think Jack Crawford wants you actually too much fun? You

947
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 2: should have left that detail out at the expense of

948
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 2: total accuracy, so that I would be derailing this for

949
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 2: the next three hours. I'm going to run out of

950
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 2: line readings before we run out of time.

951
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 1: Table like sixteen twenty four minutes of Annibal let you're

952
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: in here. Hey everyone, this is Jordan. A few days

953
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,760
Speaker 1: after we tape this out episode. Now, I couldn't stop

954
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: thinking about what it would sound like if Jack Nicholson

955
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: have been cast as Hannibal Lecter. It was one of

956
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: the few impressions that Heigel couldn't conjure up. So I

957
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 1: started fool around with some voice cloning software and I

958
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: came up with but I think it's a pretty decent

959
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 1: fact simile. Now, I didn't tell Haigel anything about this,

960
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: so I'm just sneaking it in right here as a

961
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: little surprise for him. Hope you enjoy.

962
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 3: You know what you look like to me? With your

963
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 3: good bag and your cheap shoes. You look like a rube,

964
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 3: a well scrubbed, hustling rube with a little taste. Good

965
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 3: nutrition has given you some length of bone. But you're

966
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 3: not more than one generation from poor white trash? Are you?

967
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 3: Agent Starling? And that accent you've tried so desperately to

968
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 3: shed pure West Virginia? What's your father, dear? Is he

969
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 3: a coal miner? Does he stink of the lamp? You

970
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 3: know how quickly the boys found you, all those tedious,

971
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 3: sticky fumblings in the back seats of cars while you

972
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 3: could only dream of getting out, getting anywhere, getting all

973
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 3: the way to the FB.

974
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: I thank you very much, and that back to a

975
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: regularly scheduled.

976
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:06,399
Speaker 2: Program as you meditate on that, We'll be right back

977
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 2: with more too much information.

978
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 5: After these messages, Anthony Hopkins would recall that Jonathan Demi

979
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 5: told him that Hannibal Lecter was quote a good man

980
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 5: locked inside an insane mind, which is who among us really,

981
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:38,800
Speaker 5: and the fact that he played the good doctor and

982
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 5: the elephant.

983
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 1: Man went a long way and getting him the role

984
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,720
Speaker 1: in Silence of the Lambs, because this role led Jonathan

985
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 1: Demi to wonder what if the good doctor went terribly

986
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: wrong somehow, which is Hannibal Lecter. And screenwriter Ted Talley

987
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: described Lecter as quote the Sherlock Holmes of evil, which

988
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: I love.

989
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, they really pushed that a little too much in

990
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 2: my mind in Annibal. When he's like basic doing like

991
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 2: secret agent, he's like taken out a whole gang of

992
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 2: cops and whatever. My decision was to play the non

993
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 2: psychopathic side of him, to play him very quiet, very charming,

994
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 2: not dripping blood. Hopkins told the Hollywood Foreign Press Association,

995
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 2: I played King Lear once and the trick of the

996
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 2: mad scenes is not to play them, not to play

997
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 2: him mad. The lines that Shakespeare wrote for him are

998
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 2: mad enough that you don't have to act madness, just

999
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 2: play it normally. But the audience is listening to this

1000
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: madness coming out of the lines. What Hannibal does, what

1001
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 2: he says speaks of madness, speaks of cruelty. What he

1002
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 2: does to those two guards is cruel and violent, terrifying

1003
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 2: and insane. But you don't have to act that out.

1004
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 2: That makes him more frightening. It's the old maximum. Less

1005
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: is more of that iconic introductory scene when they go

1006
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 2: down they do the long, slow walk down the cell block.

1007
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 2: Hopkins were called to Vanity Fair. I remember the day

1008
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 2: when Jonathan asked me how I wanted to be revealed

1009
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,399
Speaker 2: for the first time. It was Monday, January the ninth,

1010
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety. I think he kept a diary because because

1011
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 2: he's very precise with these dates in this it's very creepy.

1012
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 2: He said, the camera's going to be Jodie coming down

1013
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 2: the corridor. How do you want to be seen? Do

1014
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 2: you want to be standing or reading or asleep or something?

1015
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 2: I said, no, I'd like to be standing where I said,

1016
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 2: in the center of the cell. Why I said, I

1017
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 2: can smell her. Jonathan said, you are crazy. The inhale

1018
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: sucking thing. The fifth thing is, he says he in

1019
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 2: the commentary track for the DVD, he did it as

1020
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 2: a joke. He didn't think Demi was going to keep

1021
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,840
Speaker 2: it in. Demi was like, that was wacky. We're keeping that,

1022
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 2: but it's actually really funny. In the DVD commentary, he

1023
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 2: says that he was inspired by Bella Legosi as Dracula,

1024
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,399
Speaker 2: but he freely admits that he doesn't actually know if

1025
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 2: that's something that Bella Legosi does as Dracula or if

1026
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 2: it's just something that he thought he did. Assume.

1027
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: I understand that. Yeah, it's knowing something emotionally and not

1028
00:51:59,600 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: in a life.

1029
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 2: Actually I like that, Yes, yes, knows it in here

1030
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 2: taps to heart. Yeah.

1031
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 1: It's truly one of the best character introductions in movie history,

1032
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,760
Speaker 1: because after all of us build up, the most terrifying

1033
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: thing that Hannibal Electric could do was just stand there, Amy, please,

1034
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,839
Speaker 1: and you're like looking for You're waiting for him. It's

1035
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: the suspense thing. You're waiting for him to snap. You're

1036
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:25,399
Speaker 1: waiting for him to become the guy that you've heard

1037
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 1: so much about for the first twenty twenty five minutes

1038
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: of the movie. I love that they had shot for

1039
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: like a month I think before Anthony Hopkins came to

1040
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 1: the set, So this kind of I think added to

1041
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 1: this whole sense of oh sure.

1042
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Hannibal's iconic mask took some developing. The production

1043
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 2: designer called it an interesting dilemma. She said, for a

1044
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 2: while there were thoughts of fencing sort of grid masks.

1045
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 2: That was a costume designer, Colleen Attwood, And you can

1046
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 2: see the non cool looking one is in the when

1047
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 2: Chiltern's in his cell telling him about the new offer

1048
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 2: from Senator Martin. When he gets the pen from Chilton,

1049
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 2: he's got that sort of half half like fencing mask

1050
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,720
Speaker 2: thing that really actually very awkwardly like squishes Anthony Hopkins

1051
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,879
Speaker 2: nose down. So for the hockey inspired mask that they

1052
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 2: ultimately used, Atwood said in a twenty fourteen interview, we

1053
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 2: sent it to a guy to be made from a drawing.

1054
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 2: All I wanted was a hockey style mask. The designer

1055
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:26,839
Speaker 2: sent it back to me in raw fiberglass to check

1056
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,439
Speaker 2: before it was to be painted, and glazed. It looked

1057
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 2: like it was made out of this piece of skin

1058
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,800
Speaker 2: or leather. Straight away, I said, it's so much better

1059
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 2: doing it this way than doing anything else to it.

1060
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 2: So that's how the mask came to be. And that's

1061
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 2: back in the day when multiples were not regularly made

1062
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:44,240
Speaker 2: or marketed. So I think only two of those masks

1063
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 2: exist in the world. Now we come to one of

1064
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 2: our most favorite bits here at TMI, which is ruining things. No,

1065
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 2: it's debunking off aggregated pieces of trivia. You know, if

1066
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 2: you go to you got a lesser clickbait factories across

1067
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 2: the Internet, not the union made made in usmor by

1068
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 2: hand clickbait that we do. Here, you find this persistent

1069
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 2: thing that he doesn't blink. Anthony Hopkins does not blink

1070
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 2: while playing Hannibal Lecter, which even a cursory rewatch of

1071
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:22,720
Speaker 2: the movie would disprove. But ground zero for this appears

1072
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 2: to be our girl, Barbara Walters, friend of the Pod,

1073
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 2: Barbara Walters. She volunteers unprompted in this interview. He's I

1074
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 2: think he's talking about like being still or something, and

1075
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:37,280
Speaker 2: she just goes you never blink.

1076
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:39,760
Speaker 1: I assume she's speaking metaphorically.

1077
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 2: No, she no, because she says, I've seen this clip.

1078
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 2: She says, you never blink, and he immediately goes no.

1079
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 2: And then she says, as Hannibal, and he says no,

1080
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 2: and then ted Tally, the screenwriter is this is as

1081
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,879
Speaker 2: recently as twenty twenty one. He was talking to Rolling Stone.

1082
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 2: He was saying, I don't know if you would notice

1083
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 2: this even but he only blinks one time in the

1084
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 2: entire movie, and he doesn't very slowly and dramatically. Otherwise

1085
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 2: his eyes are completely wide open. He trained himself to

1086
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 2: do that.

1087
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 1: Not true.

1088
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 2: Neither of those things are true. Sorry, he doesn't blink

1089
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 2: a lot, but he certainly does not blink never, nor

1090
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 2: does he blink only once. So myth busted. Where's my

1091
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 2: uh yeah, where's my soundboard? Give me a second? What

1092
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 2: do you got?

1093
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 3: All right?

1094
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 2: Myth busted?

1095
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 1: We're living moss once again.

1096
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 2: Can you imagine Hannibal if he had if he had

1097
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 2: been worse or must dignified dire straits like finances after

1098
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 2: this movie came out. Can you imagine him as handle

1099
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 2: Elector doing doing Taco bell commercials? Can you imagine Sean

1100
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 2: Connery as hand of Elector doing Taco Bell commercials. We

1101
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 2: begin to covet by what we see every day, and

1102
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 2: that includes the new Kaishia Dia Supreme available for a

1103
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 2: limited time at Taco Bell, pajh Well with a Knife, Kiante.

1104
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,320
Speaker 1: All that said, one of the upsides of having no

1105
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 1: sponsors on the show.

1106
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 2: All that said, Anthony Hopkins was super creepy on the set.

1107
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 2: Demi recalled in the making of an on set interview.

1108
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,359
Speaker 2: Every morning when we do a lector scene, Tony would

1109
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,919
Speaker 2: come in and say, good morning, Jonathan. You know you're

1110
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:30,239
Speaker 2: really the one that's mad. He don't empire. He just

1111
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 2: showed up with doctor Lecter. As a matter of fact,

1112
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 2: I've spoken to him a few times recently and he's

1113
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 2: still doctor Lekker. I'm a little distressed about that, but

1114
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 2: that's Tony. I like to think that Tony just got

1115
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 2: the joke about doctor Lecter in a way that nobody

1116
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 2: save perhaps Thomas Harris, may have gotten. And the film's

1117
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 2: editor Craig Mackie recalled a very wonderful image of Hopkins

1118
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 2: sitting in the all white outfit covered in fake blood

1119
00:56:55,120 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 2: on set reading Eudora Welty. Not a shooting day went

1120
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 2: by without Tony gliding up behind Jody or myself baring

1121
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 2: his fangs and going good morning, Demi told people in

1122
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one. Or he'd look round with these gigantic

1123
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 2: eyes at the whole crew and go, you know, Jonathan's

1124
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 2: the mad one. He never blinks. He's quite insane.

1125
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 1: The obsession with blinking on this set is great.

1126
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 2: It weakens him anyway. It worked. Aside from the Oscar

1127
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 2: and untold millions in box office grows and the thousands

1128
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 2: of impressions, parodies and Halloween costumes dedicated to Hannibal, the

1129
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 2: character was named the Greatest Villain in American Cinema by

1130
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 2: the AFI American Film Institute in two thousand and three. Ah,

1131
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 2: he holds the record for winner. I'm trying to think

1132
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 2: of how to phrase this. That character in Hopkins hold

1133
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 2: the record for the shortest amount of screen time that

1134
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 2: went into a Best Actor win. And I have been

1135
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 2: I didn't time this out. I'm not that much of

1136
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 2: a nerd. I'm not gonna watch this movie with a stopwatch.

1137
00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:00,160
Speaker 2: But I have seen estimates of as low as sixteen

1138
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 2: and as high as nearly twenty five minutes of screen time.

1139
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 2: Seems like a big variance. I don't know why we

1140
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 2: can't nail that down, but if you were a loved one,

1141
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 2: want to, uh you know, send us your stop Watch

1142
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 2: readouts will many five bucks.

1143
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 1: Let's see who are the best supporting actors up for

1144
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: that year? So this is nineteen one eighty two Best

1145
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: Supporting Actor. The winner was Jack Palance for City Slickers,

1146
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 1: Tommy Lee Jones and JFK. Harvey Kai Tell and Bugsy,

1147
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:31,040
Speaker 1: Ben Kingsley for Bugsy, and Michael Lerner and Barton Fink.

1148
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: If Anny Hopkins could have taken on them, yeah, you

1149
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 1: sure could have. Because he was going up against Warren Beatty,

1150
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 1: Robert Danira, Nick Nulty, and Robin Williams in Best Actors.

1151
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: That actually seems like less competition in the Supporting Actor

1152
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 1: Jack Palance. Come on, well, of course, the film wouldn't

1153
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: be complete without its big bad Ted Levine's horrifying killer

1154
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 1: jam Gumm aka Buffalo.

1155
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 2: Bill not pronounced Jamie. I. I want to be a

1156
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 2: pedantic about it because it says it in the text.

1157
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 2: We'll only know this because I've read this book with

1158
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 2: like a half dozen times. It's like it was an

1159
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:12,080
Speaker 2: error on his the character's birth certificate and he insisted

1160
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 2: on it, pronouncing it James like James without the s.

1161
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 2: It's just a very funny note that they made it

1162
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 2: into the movie. But some people say Jamie in the movie.

1163
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 1: But he's more of commonly known as Buffalo Bill because

1164
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 1: as the Kansas City homicide apparently joked this one likes

1165
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 1: to skin his humps.

1166
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 2: Oh awful.

1167
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 1: Johnny Douglas the now retired FBI special agent who's probably

1168
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,919
Speaker 1: the most famous profiler in history. He's written the book

1169
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: mind Hunter, inside the FBI's elite serial crime unit that's

1170
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 1: the inspiration for the famous Netflix series. He's personally interviewed

1171
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 1: some of history's most notorious serial killers, and he was

1172
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 1: also a consultant on Thomas Harris's books and the film

1173
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 1: Silence of the Lambs, And with John Douglas's help, Thomas

1174
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: Harris modeled Gum as an amalgam of real life killers

1175
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: like Ted Bundy, who used cast on his hand to

1176
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 1: lure women into his car to help him, like Gum did.

1177
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 1: Gary Heidnick, who I wasn't familiar with him, imprisoned, tortured,

1178
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: and killed women in his Philadelphia basement. I said that

1179
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 1: way to chipperly Go Eagles, you say go Eagles.

1180
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, dude, Philly, Philly represent Philly. Doesn't care how it's

1181
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 2: in the news, just that it is.

1182
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 1: Gary Heidnick a bad John if you will. And then

1183
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: of course ed gean from Wisconsin who killed at least

1184
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 1: two women, probably more, but also dug up graves and

1185
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: made trophies out of bones and skins from corpses.

1186
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:39,920
Speaker 2: Is he the one who made lampshades out of okay?

1187
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 1: Jim Johnny Douglas, the FBI profiler, is also the inspiration

1188
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: for the Jack Crawford character in the electro verse. He's

1189
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 1: been played by Dennis Farina, Harvey Kaitel, Scott Glenn, and

1190
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 1: Lawrence Fishburn in various Hannibal Ee properties. But he's not

1191
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 1: a fan of these movies, though He's told The New

1192
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:01,960
Speaker 1: York Posts in twenty seventeen, don't put across accurate portrayals

1193
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: these movies, and that aggravates me. I can't look at

1194
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 1: those movies.

1195
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 2: That's a bummer. Yeah, I know.

1196
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 1: I feel like when FBI profilers get aggravated, people die.

1197
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 1: I feel like he's high on the list of people

1198
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 1: you want to keep happy. Ted Levine, the actor played

1199
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 1: Buffalo Bill. I'm just gonna keep calling on Buffalo Bill

1200
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 1: because that's who he is.

1201
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 5: To me.

1202
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 1: Phil rolling Stone in twenty twenty one why he wanted

1203
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 1: the role, He said, I read the script and the

1204
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 1: script was great. I read the book and the book

1205
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 1: was better. I reread the script and realized it was

1206
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 1: also pretty damn good. I met Jonathan Demi and everything

1207
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 1: fell into place. Ted le Avin auditioned for the role

1208
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 1: of Jamie Gone Buffalo Bill after John Malkovich, who was

1209
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 1: his peer in Chicago's fame Steppenwolf Theater Company.

1210
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 2: Passed on the role. Wow, John Malkovich, he would be good. Yea, Yeah,

1211
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 2: that was really good. It puts the lotion in the basket.

1212
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 2: He would have been so precise.

1213
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 1: And annoying the nunciation the diction had been off the charts.

1214
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 1: Ted Levine said, I scared them to death in the audition.

1215
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 1: This is him talking to the Chicago Reader in nineteen

1216
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 1: ninety one. I had no idea what I was going

1217
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 1: to do. Actually, I think my audition was better than

1218
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: my performance by far. And after he got the role,

1219
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,040
Speaker 1: he went in depth into research. He said, I read

1220
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 1: a lot of shits. He's stucking. To Hunter Adams, his

1221
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 1: director in twenty fourteen's Dig two Graves for an interview.

1222
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 1: I went to Quantico. I met the guys there in

1223
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 1: the behavioral science unit and talked to them. They showed

1224
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 1: me some shit and I heard some shit. Actually they

1225
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 1: got cut off because they were showing me that they

1226
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 1: shouldn't show me. I saw some shit there and it

1227
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: wasn't good. Heard some tapes of people that did horrible, horrible.

1228
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 2: Things for real.

1229
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 1: And aside from the killers that Thomas Harris based Buffalo,

1230
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 1: bill On Lavigne added Jerry Brutos, who's a foot fetishist

1231
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 1: serial killer from Oregon, into his performance, and he said

1232
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 1: that the basis of his character was based on the

1233
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 1: assumption that these serial killers were quote self indulgent, addicted

1234
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 1: to the idea of sex and death being close together,

1235
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 1: and they really got off on that. Just an interesting insight.

1236
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 2: I have a theory that John Douglas had one tape

1237
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 2: that he showed all of these guys, because Scott Glenn

1238
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 2: talks about going to visit him as well and being

1239
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 2: like traumatized by the tape that that John Douglas played him.

1240
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 2: So I have to wonder if if John Douglas just

1241
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 2: like pulls it out of his desk and like blows

1242
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 2: the dust off it, and it's like, here's the tape

1243
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 2: I used to traumatize people who want to come here

1244
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 2: and research behavioral profiling and serial killers. Do you want

1245
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:28,040
Speaker 2: to know what tape it was? I actually know that

1246
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 2: it was a tape of these these these uh. I

1247
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 2: think he talks about this in the Inside the Labyrinthine documentary.

1248
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 2: There were a pair of serial killers of killers who

1249
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 2: were kidnapping teen girls in chronological order, so they like

1250
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 2: started I forget if they started with like eleven year

1251
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 2: old or something, but they went out and specifically found

1252
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:53,280
Speaker 2: one at every age and they were keeping them chained

1253
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 2: up and there and and torturing them. And that was

1254
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 2: the tapes they made tapes of them like torturing them

1255
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 2: and screaming and the that was the ones that he

1256
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 2: showed us or played for Scott Glenn and made him

1257
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:08,560
Speaker 2: reconsider his position on the death penalty. That's how bad

1258
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 2: it was, which, yeah, that'd do it, yeah, yeah. And

1259
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 2: then I think it was John Douglas, the actress who

1260
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 2: plays Katherine Martin brook Smith was I think in her

1261
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 2: Vulture interview she talks about like during one of her

1262
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 2: like breakdown scenes. She like came up for air, so

1263
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 2: to speak, and on the set, and John Douglas was

1264
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 2: there and he was like, Yep, that's what it's like,

1265
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 2: which is either great to hear as an actress or

1266
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 2: just bone chilling. Ted Levine also visited a drag club

1267
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 2: where he found some insight into the character. He told

1268
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 2: Rolling Stone, I talked to a lovely, probably five foot

1269
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 2: one Hispanic boy girl and bought him a drink. Obviously

1270
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 2: this phrasing is outmoded. I asked, why do you do this?

1271
01:04:57,840 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 2: He said. When I'm a dude on the street, I'm

1272
01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 2: just little Porto Rican mother. When I'm here, I'm a

1273
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 2: hot Latina mama. It struck me that it was about power.

1274
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 2: By trying to become a woman, he gains power. Hence

1275
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:11,680
Speaker 2: the moth, the lava turning into the butterfly, the whole

1276
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:14,960
Speaker 2: thing blossoming. It was the same impetus as a female impersonator,

1277
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 2: but it became psychotic. It was donning the cloak of

1278
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 2: feminine power, and perhaps most horrifyingly, he added that for

1279
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 2: Bill's voice, I kind of did my mom a little

1280
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 2: bit phrasing.

1281
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 1: Uh, just as creepy are the bodies that he used

1282
01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 1: to make his skin suit. No, all the word for it.

1283
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:39,040
Speaker 1: For the skin suit, they used the life model and

1284
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 1: then disassembled it and then sewed it back together to

1285
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 1: make it more segmented. And for the body fat of

1286
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:50,479
Speaker 1: these bodies, they used pastina pasta and ky jelly, which

1287
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:53,080
Speaker 1: as an Italian upsets me deeply.

1288
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, they didn't use any fake corpses for this because

1289
01:05:57,840 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 2: one of the special effects guys. I was like, oh man,

1290
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 2: all those models you made sounded great, and all the

1291
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 2: crime scene photos, even the woman in the autopsy, those

1292
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 2: are real women. Those were just made up and had

1293
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:08,200
Speaker 2: to stay still.

1294
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 1: Do you talk about what the larva thing was made

1295
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:13,440
Speaker 1: out of in here?

1296
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:15,919
Speaker 2: You must, I'm sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, h yeah yeah, sorry,

1297
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 2: I'll TWITSI rolls and gummy bears, right, yeah yeah. Brooke Smith,

1298
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 2: who plays the kidnap senator's daughter, told Vulture, I already

1299
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:24,320
Speaker 2: had the part and it was like, hey, Brook, can

1300
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 2: you come in and read for the three people for

1301
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 2: callbacks for the people we're bringing in for the role.

1302
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 2: I guess they wanted to see what we looked like together,

1303
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 2: and oh my god, Ted was just it. He walked

1304
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 2: in the door, and he wasn't an actor trying to

1305
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:36,440
Speaker 2: get a job. The guy who had gone before him

1306
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:38,479
Speaker 2: and had props, had everything figured out what he wanted

1307
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 2: to do, and they were like, thanks for coming in.

1308
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 2: I can't really say what Ted did in that room,

1309
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:44,560
Speaker 2: except I thought, oh my god, I'll never be able

1310
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:46,920
Speaker 2: to audition again, because if people are this good in

1311
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 2: the room, I'll never be able to get any work.

1312
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 2: I remember asking him later on set, what did you do?

1313
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 2: You were unbelievable. He was like, it's so funny you

1314
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 2: say that, because I didn't know what I was going

1315
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 2: to do, so I just drank a lot of coffee.

1316
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 2: Brook Smith gained twenty five pounds for the role. She

1317
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 2: told Rolling Stone. I was in an acting class with

1318
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 2: Vincent Andofrio when I got the role, and he had

1319
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 2: just done Full Metal Jacket. So he said, you got

1320
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 2: to ask the producers to give you a credit card.

1321
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 2: They gotta pay for your food. So I did, and

1322
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:16,200
Speaker 2: we always joke that's why they went over budget because

1323
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 2: of my food. That's the film When Stanley Kuber kept

1324
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 2: calling Vincentofrio to his house and Vincent was like not enough. Yeah,

1325
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 2: he was like, oh, I'm gonna get I'm gonna get

1326
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:30,480
Speaker 2: acting advice about the character, and like, I think for

1327
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:33,439
Speaker 2: the character, and Scubrick would just be like, no, still

1328
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:38,160
Speaker 2: not fat enough, just slammed the door in his face.

1329
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:40,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, just just on the stoop. He don't even let

1330
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 1: him in and.

1331
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 2: Just opens the door. No, thanks for coming.

1332
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 1: Brooks Smith, who played the senator's kidnapped daughter, she's pretty

1333
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 1: hilarious in real life and in these interviews, she's got

1334
01:07:55,520 --> 01:07:58,920
Speaker 1: a million of these similar lines. In a twentieth aniversary

1335
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 1: feature for the History Chain, and recounts a moment when

1336
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 1: Jonathan Demi asks her if she's ever been in jail,

1337
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:07,760
Speaker 1: presumably together in the mood for being locked in the pit,

1338
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 1: and she replies, Jonathan, I've never been in jail. Jonathan

1339
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:18,040
Speaker 1: Demi was like really, she got all offended, and then

1340
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:20,479
Speaker 1: she makes a point of turning to the documentary camera

1341
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 1: and going and I still haven't been in jail, Jonathan.

1342
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:26,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's really funny. I like it so funny.

1343
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:31,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And she also talks about Buffalo Bill's famous the dance,

1344
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 1: Yes that he does. Apparently they made that up on

1345
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:39,000
Speaker 1: the set, and she said that in the same documentary,

1346
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 1: people come up to me all the time and say

1347
01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 1: my boyfriend always tucks his penis in and does that dance,

1348
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 1: which is a really weird thing to say to me.

1349
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:50,440
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, okay, great, he sounds like a great guy.

1350
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:53,840
Speaker 2: Ted Levine and brook Smith actually grew quite close on

1351
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 2: the set, to the point where Jodie Foster started calling

1352
01:08:56,680 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 2: brook Smith Patty Hurst in reference to the heirest earned

1353
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:03,800
Speaker 2: bank robber Ya Stockholm syndrome. We had to take care

1354
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 2: of each other to shoot those scenes, Smith told Vulture,

1355
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 2: we had to trust each other.

1356
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 1: Anthony Hopkins thought it was really funny to see the

1357
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:13,120
Speaker 1: pair having lunch together after spending the whole day being

1358
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 1: tortured by it.

1359
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 2: I think she gave She gave him one of the

1360
01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:21,120
Speaker 2: necklaces that he wears in the penis tuck dance scene,

1361
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:25,960
Speaker 2: which is so cute and horrifying. Smith talked about despite

1362
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:28,280
Speaker 2: the fact that Tom Petty's American Girl has been indelibly

1363
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:30,800
Speaker 2: linked with her character in the film, another track being

1364
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 2: floated with Shaka cohns I'm every Woman, and that as

1365
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:37,800
Speaker 2: a veteran of New York City's eighties punk scene herself,

1366
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 2: she wanted bad Brains to go in the movie, which

1367
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 2: is hilarious. Can you imagine? Smith told Vulture that she

1368
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 2: locked herself in her parents' basement closet as research, which

1369
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:50,439
Speaker 2: got her in the right headspace. I had a lot

1370
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 2: of bad dreams before we shot, but by the time

1371
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:55,160
Speaker 2: we got there, I was pretty relaxed. I think all

1372
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:57,679
Speaker 2: that screaming is kind of a primal therapy, so I'd

1373
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:00,320
Speaker 2: be really relaxed at lunchtime, and all the teamsters everyone

1374
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:02,720
Speaker 2: be not relaxed after having lived through the past few

1375
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:06,160
Speaker 2: hours of me screaming. Ted Levin and Jodi Foster meanwhile,

1376
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 2: deliberately avoided each other. He told Rolling Stone. We stayed

1377
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:11,640
Speaker 2: away from each other, and I think that was a

1378
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 2: good choice when you're the antagonist and you're dealing with

1379
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:18,240
Speaker 2: a protagonist. That night vision scene, though, took twenty two

1380
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:19,280
Speaker 2: hours to film.

1381
01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 1: Oh that's nuts, and that was on her last day, right, yeah,

1382
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:26,200
Speaker 1: last day of filming.

1383
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:28,799
Speaker 2: Wow, God Foster's anyway.

1384
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:31,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, but at least there wasn't actually in complete darkness

1385
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:32,800
Speaker 1: for twenty two hours.

1386
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:35,880
Speaker 2: Which I am shamed to admit that. For the longest time,

1387
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:38,720
Speaker 2: I was like, Wow, they actually shot that because her

1388
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:40,520
Speaker 2: performance is so convincing.

1389
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:43,080
Speaker 1: And then an interview she like laughs about she like

1390
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:46,280
Speaker 1: can't figure out why everyone thinks that it's real, and

1391
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:47,920
Speaker 1: it's like, well, because you're really good at it.

1392
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:49,720
Speaker 2: You're an amazing actress.

1393
01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:52,679
Speaker 1: But she points out that if this were actually really

1394
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:54,760
Speaker 1: done in the dark, it would be completely shadowless with

1395
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:57,760
Speaker 1: this night vision thing, but there's a telltale shadow. When

1396
01:10:57,800 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 1: Buffalo Bill lifts his hands with the gun, you see

1397
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:01,240
Speaker 1: shadow on her shoulders.

1398
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:04,800
Speaker 2: So yeah, in the book, I remember, there is like

1399
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 2: a thing about he's immediately struck by her hair, and

1400
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:12,320
Speaker 2: so he has this whole thing about, you know, wanting

1401
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:15,639
Speaker 2: to use her hair as part of his his suit.

1402
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:20,439
Speaker 2: They filmed those basement scenes in what was once a

1403
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:23,920
Speaker 2: giant airplane turbine factory in Pittsburgh, and it was on

1404
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:26,840
Speaker 2: a multi level set so Smith could either enter it

1405
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:29,120
Speaker 2: through a trapdoor at the bottom which they covered with dirt,

1406
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:31,920
Speaker 2: or through the sides. And then it was actually like

1407
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:35,200
Speaker 2: the filmmakers and everyone shooting it were actually like twenty

1408
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 2: feet up, and it was I forget who talks about

1409
01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:40,879
Speaker 2: having to look down into that thing and giving them vertigo.

1410
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:42,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, she said it was a real bummer when she

1411
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:45,240
Speaker 1: was in the pit and had to go pee like

1412
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:45,880
Speaker 1: that was.

1413
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:48,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, she had a bucket.

1414
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:52,240
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1415
01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 1: All all being on the sound stage that they built

1416
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:58,360
Speaker 1: in an abandoned ge turbine factory seems like hell. They

1417
01:11:58,360 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 1: were filming during the coldest Pittsburgh winner in recent memory,

1418
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:04,559
Speaker 1: in what was described as quote a giant cement block

1419
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:07,519
Speaker 1: with no heat in it, fourteen degrees below zero, so

1420
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 1: cold that the elevators regularly froze, and the crew had

1421
01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:13,800
Speaker 1: the wear chemical hand heaters. So Brooke Smith was a

1422
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 1: real true for being down on that pit. The real

1423
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:23,960
Speaker 1: friends were the penises. We tucked a lot in blaugh Ah.

1424
01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:26,040
Speaker 2: She of course also spent a lot of time with Darla,

1425
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:28,840
Speaker 2: the dog that plays precious. She said, I felt bad

1426
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:31,519
Speaker 2: for that dog. Told Rolling Stone, I just thought, well,

1427
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:33,720
Speaker 2: how does this dog know that this isn't real? The

1428
01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 2: trainer was always there. If I was looking up at ted,

1429
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:37,880
Speaker 2: the trainer will be right next to them. And the

1430
01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:40,360
Speaker 2: trainer was almost scarier because I was like, I better

1431
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:43,760
Speaker 2: not hurt this dog. Oh and the lotion placed in

1432
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:47,960
Speaker 2: the basket under thread of getting the hose again, brook

1433
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:50,880
Speaker 2: Smith says it was just crappy lotion, nothing fancy, and

1434
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:54,320
Speaker 2: the prompt Mistress Anne Miller delivered the bottle to her

1435
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 2: apartment in New York a few years after shooting, which

1436
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 2: is really creepy. She said. My doorman was like, someone

1437
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:04,720
Speaker 2: left you this package, and it was the lotion, just

1438
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:07,600
Speaker 2: this little white plastic bottle. She taped a piece of

1439
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:09,840
Speaker 2: paper to it that said, it puts the lotion on

1440
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:12,799
Speaker 2: the skin. It does this whenever it's told Jay Gumm,

1441
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:17,520
Speaker 2: I don't think I've seen her since then. That's horrifying.

1442
01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:19,760
Speaker 2: That is a strange thing to do.

1443
01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:20,559
Speaker 3: Oh.

1444
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:24,519
Speaker 1: I mean, as somebody who collects random memorabilia like I

1445
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:28,639
Speaker 1: do and is really sentimental, I almost I appreciate that.

1446
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:30,640
Speaker 2: But just to anonymously drop it off and then you

1447
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:34,080
Speaker 2: never see that person again. That's what's creepy. Fact that

1448
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 2: I know where you live is a little Yeah. That's

1449
01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:39,639
Speaker 2: kind of another iconic aspect of the performance. The dance

1450
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 2: to Q Lazarus is Goodbye Horses. That is a prosthetic nipple,

1451
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:47,280
Speaker 2: which Ted Levine and Jonathan Demibo said freaks people out,

1452
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 2: but it is not a real nipple, guys. The crotch

1453
01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:58,040
Speaker 2: tuck dance is in Harris's book, and Levine said it's

1454
01:13:58,080 --> 01:14:00,640
Speaker 2: something any boy can do at home. I thought it

1455
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:04,200
Speaker 2: was essential, he told the Chicago Reader. To prepare for

1456
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:06,160
Speaker 2: the filming that scene, he took a couple of shots

1457
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:06,759
Speaker 2: of tequila.

1458
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:09,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's kind of echoed that quote in a lot

1459
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:12,880
Speaker 1: of interviews I've read with him. That's a simple thing

1460
01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 1: that anybody can do in the privacy of their own home.

1461
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:18,160
Speaker 1: It made it immediately accessible to people.

1462
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:24,000
Speaker 2: Sure, I'm not gonna disagree with that, dude. I was

1463
01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:26,120
Speaker 2: as shocked as everybody else when I saw him tucking

1464
01:14:26,200 --> 01:14:29,400
Speaker 2: his genitals between his legs and posing. Screenwriter Ted Tally

1465
01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:32,719
Speaker 2: told the mag I thought, oh my god. When Jody

1466
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:35,599
Speaker 2: first saw it, she said, this is really disturbing, which

1467
01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:36,640
Speaker 2: is the idea?

1468
01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:39,760
Speaker 1: So was it in the book but not the screenplay,

1469
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:41,679
Speaker 1: but then they made it up on the set.

1470
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:43,559
Speaker 2: Is that I feel like it might have just been

1471
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:46,200
Speaker 2: like Jame does a creepy dance in the mirror. Like

1472
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:48,599
Speaker 2: I don't think they Uh. I think he looks great

1473
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:50,280
Speaker 2: by the way. He looks great with that long hair

1474
01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 2: and make up. The scalp.

1475
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:56,599
Speaker 1: I mean, oh, was that? I think I missed that.

1476
01:14:57,040 --> 01:14:58,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's kind of a blinking you miss it moment.

1477
01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:01,280
Speaker 2: It's when he's like adjusting it. You can see it

1478
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:06,240
Speaker 2: as like a bloody piece of like scalp on it. Still, Yeah,

1479
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:08,840
Speaker 2: but that scene almost had a very different flavor pun

1480
01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:13,040
Speaker 2: intended when Levine started working on it. When Levine started

1481
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:15,439
Speaker 2: working on it with Jonathan Demi, it was soundtrack to

1482
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:20,280
Speaker 2: Bob Seeger's Her Strut. He explained, I actually had a

1483
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:23,599
Speaker 2: very a different, very sort of raunchy stripper dance for hearst.

1484
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:26,759
Speaker 2: When Goodbye Horses came up, it served my purposes better.

1485
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:29,679
Speaker 2: It made it a little gentler and stranger. It wasn't

1486
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:31,840
Speaker 2: just so crass and sexual. It was a little bit

1487
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:34,200
Speaker 2: more feminine, and I liked that. Do you know about

1488
01:15:34,280 --> 01:15:36,400
Speaker 2: Q Lazarus? Do you know her life story? I don't know.

1489
01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 2: She was born Diane Lucky in New Jersey and she

1490
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:42,080
Speaker 2: had a band called Q Lazarus and the Resurrection. She

1491
01:15:42,160 --> 01:15:43,720
Speaker 2: was working as a cab driver in New York in

1492
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:46,960
Speaker 2: the eighties and when she picked up Jonathan Demi as

1493
01:15:47,040 --> 01:15:50,880
Speaker 2: a fair she played him her demo and they remained unsigned,

1494
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:55,200
Speaker 2: but he put Candle Goes Away, one of their songs

1495
01:15:55,240 --> 01:15:59,280
Speaker 2: in Something Wild and Hit nineteen eighty six, and then

1496
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:02,560
Speaker 2: Goodbye Horse, which is the only single she ever released commercially.

1497
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:04,760
Speaker 2: He put that in both married to the Mob and

1498
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:07,400
Speaker 2: so into the Lambs, and then he cast her in

1499
01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:11,120
Speaker 2: Philadelphia singing a talking head song which is one of

1500
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:13,280
Speaker 2: the songs that they actually do, and stop making Sense,

1501
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:15,720
Speaker 2: which is a really nice full circle moment. But she

1502
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:17,880
Speaker 2: never really managed to make anything out of a music

1503
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:21,160
Speaker 2: career because she basically fell off the map until like

1504
01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:24,519
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen or twenty seventeen, where she was tracked down

1505
01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:27,240
Speaker 2: by some freelance journalists. They found her in Staten Island,

1506
01:16:27,240 --> 01:16:31,240
Speaker 2: where she'd been driving a bus for years, So goodbye horses. Indeed,

1507
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:35,880
Speaker 2: Levine sadly wound up type cast after the performance. People

1508
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:40,200
Speaker 2: recognize my voice a lot. Yeah, it's a horrifying voice.

1509
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:43,080
Speaker 2: But I'm grateful I could get equal attention for his

1510
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:47,120
Speaker 2: other biggest role, Stottlemeyer on Monk That's a show a

1511
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:49,679
Speaker 2: kid could watch with her grandma. He was locked into

1512
01:16:49,680 --> 01:16:52,439
Speaker 2: these creep roles for a while until Jennifer Jason Lee

1513
01:16:52,479 --> 01:16:55,680
Speaker 2: actually pitched that he play her husband. He plays a

1514
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:58,599
Speaker 2: stay at home dad in the nineteen ninety five movie Georgia,

1515
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:00,679
Speaker 2: for which he said I will be for ever grateful

1516
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:03,080
Speaker 2: to her because it helped break out of his type casting.

1517
01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:04,920
Speaker 2: And he doesn't do a lot of interviews about this.

1518
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:06,960
Speaker 2: He really doesn't talk about it. He's never he said,

1519
01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:08,200
Speaker 2: he's never watched the movie.

1520
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:13,000
Speaker 1: So it's so sick of it. I mean, do we

1521
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:15,960
Speaker 1: think it ruined his life? If he was like poised

1522
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:18,040
Speaker 1: to be like a John Knakovich.

1523
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:23,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, like step Chicago Steppenwolf character actor. And then the

1524
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:25,680
Speaker 2: people were just like, it's the do the do the

1525
01:17:25,720 --> 01:17:30,000
Speaker 2: do the do the tuck thing, like it's a buffalow bill. Hey,

1526
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:35,400
Speaker 2: hey hey, it puts the load ship. Hey hey, Ted, Hey,

1527
01:17:35,479 --> 01:17:39,840
Speaker 2: it puts the lotion in the basket. Remember when you

1528
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:44,559
Speaker 2: remember it was awesome? It was I was the thing

1529
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:47,559
Speaker 2: when you did your penis, that was awesome. Man. Can

1530
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:50,960
Speaker 2: I get your autography? Yeah? I would, I would go no,

1531
01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:58,439
Speaker 2: I would go insane. Yeah. Uh. Scott Scott Glenn hot

1532
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:01,760
Speaker 2: ye with a body. He's so handsome. I love him

1533
01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:02,320
Speaker 2: so much.

1534
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:05,360
Speaker 1: Isn't he like a Chuck Norris level? Like martial artist?

1535
01:18:05,479 --> 01:18:07,840
Speaker 1: And then he's like eighty something. Yeah, he's done a

1536
01:18:07,880 --> 01:18:12,360
Speaker 1: lot of martial arts. He was photographed like doing like

1537
01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:16,760
Speaker 1: knife routines and men's health. At one point, he was

1538
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:20,439
Speaker 1: just coming off of Hunt for Red October nineteen ninety,

1539
01:18:20,720 --> 01:18:23,160
Speaker 1: but Jonathan Demi had actually known him from years prior.

1540
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:26,320
Speaker 1: They both worked on a Roger Corman biker picture called

1541
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:33,720
Speaker 1: Angel As Hard as They Come phrasing Nope, I'm not

1542
01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:34,439
Speaker 1: even gonna say it.

1543
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:36,880
Speaker 2: Demi co wrote and produced that film, and he gave

1544
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:39,360
Speaker 2: Scott Glenn one of his first big on screen parts.

1545
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:42,400
Speaker 2: Roger Corman has a cameo in Silence of the Lambs

1546
01:18:42,439 --> 01:18:44,719
Speaker 2: as the head of the FBI, and so does George

1547
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:49,200
Speaker 2: Romero Zombie auteur Pride of Pittsburgh. George Romero pops up

1548
01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:51,280
Speaker 2: as one of the prison guards escorting Clarice out of

1549
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:52,920
Speaker 2: the cell in Memphis.

1550
01:18:52,520 --> 01:18:57,120
Speaker 1: And another beloved Pittsburgh performer, Don Brockett, famous for playing

1551
01:18:57,240 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 1: Chef Brockett from Mister Rogers Neighborhood, plays one of Hannibal

1552
01:19:01,040 --> 01:19:04,200
Speaker 1: Lecter's cellmates, though sadly not Miggs, because that would have

1553
01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:06,680
Speaker 1: been That would have been amazing. You also missed my

1554
01:19:06,800 --> 01:19:11,800
Speaker 1: favorite cameo I think of this entire movie, Chris friggint Isaac, Yeah,

1555
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:14,080
Speaker 1: of that song I don't like.

1556
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:18,320
Speaker 2: Wicked Game. Yeah, he plays.

1557
01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:19,680
Speaker 1: One of the cops. I think it's one of the

1558
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:23,919
Speaker 1: cops in the scene where uh he's face, Yeah, he's away.

1559
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:24,679
Speaker 2: He's a swat guy.

1560
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:26,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, No, he's not a squat guy. I think

1561
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:27,280
Speaker 1: he's a cop.

1562
01:19:27,320 --> 01:19:30,679
Speaker 2: Oh is he Chris Isaac? I think he is because

1563
01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:34,000
Speaker 2: they do like a conspicuous They do like a conspicuous

1564
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:36,120
Speaker 2: like like he gets out of the truck and it

1565
01:19:36,240 --> 01:19:39,320
Speaker 2: like zooms in on his big Chris Isaac jaw and

1566
01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:41,839
Speaker 2: he says like let's go or something. I was like, okay,

1567
01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 2: Jonathan would they try to.

1568
01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:47,479
Speaker 1: Position him as like a Harry Connick junior style, like no,

1569
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:50,479
Speaker 1: he can like crossover artist or I.

1570
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:52,519
Speaker 2: Don't know, I don't care. I don't think anything's interesting

1571
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:53,639
Speaker 2: about Chris Isaac.

1572
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:57,920
Speaker 1: Well here's something it's interesting about Chris Isaac. He'd worked

1573
01:19:57,920 --> 01:20:00,960
Speaker 1: with Jonathan Demi. He's had a couple run with Jonathan Debbie.

1574
01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:02,880
Speaker 1: He worked with him and Married to the Mob. And

1575
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:05,559
Speaker 1: Chris Isaac also worked with Jonathan Debbi in My Beloved

1576
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:08,599
Speaker 1: That Thing You Do, where Demi had a cameo as

1577
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:11,200
Speaker 1: the director of the Beach Party movie that the Wonders

1578
01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:14,280
Speaker 1: are appearing in Weekend at Party Peer with Captain Geech

1579
01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 1: and the shrimp Shacked Shooters. And this is perfect because

1580
01:20:17,240 --> 01:20:21,160
Speaker 1: Jonathan Demi had just directed Tom Hanks in Philadelphia, and

1581
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:24,519
Speaker 1: Tom Hanks did a little role reversal. He's directing his

1582
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:27,599
Speaker 1: old director now because Tom Hanks wrote and directed That

1583
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:30,360
Speaker 1: Thing You Do. Plus, Jonathan Demi had got to start

1584
01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:32,559
Speaker 1: working with Roger Corman, as you mentioned, who's the king

1585
01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:35,120
Speaker 1: of the sixties teen movies. So it's kind of cute

1586
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:36,720
Speaker 1: he's putting him in those role as a director of

1587
01:20:36,760 --> 01:20:39,080
Speaker 1: a teen movie. And that Thing You Do. I love that.

1588
01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:41,479
Speaker 2: Scott Glenn and Jody Foster's dynamic in the film is

1589
01:20:41,479 --> 01:20:43,640
Speaker 2: one of its strongest parts, and it was something that

1590
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:48,479
Speaker 2: Demi was shepherding along from day one. Scott Glenn told

1591
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:51,400
Speaker 2: Rolling Stone after I read Ted Telly's script, I remember thinking,

1592
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:54,160
Speaker 2: this is the strangest relationship of the movie, even stranger

1593
01:20:54,200 --> 01:20:56,680
Speaker 2: than her and Lecter. I don't know about that, buddy.

1594
01:20:57,520 --> 01:20:59,479
Speaker 2: I remember Jody and I were doing a table reading

1595
01:20:59,520 --> 01:21:02,080
Speaker 2: early on, trying it one way or another, and Jonathan

1596
01:21:02,120 --> 01:21:05,280
Speaker 2: Demi said, don't play the relationship. That's just a writer

1597
01:21:05,439 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 2: being a writer.

1598
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:06,879
Speaker 1: Ah.

1599
01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:09,599
Speaker 2: Later on, there's a scene where she's leaving Washington and

1600
01:21:09,640 --> 01:21:12,200
Speaker 2: I'm helping walk her out to the car. She had

1601
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:13,840
Speaker 2: a hard time getting in. So I just took her

1602
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:15,719
Speaker 2: arm to sort of help her getting into the car,

1603
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:19,240
Speaker 2: and Jonathan yelled no. Cut. He comes running, like really

1604
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:21,160
Speaker 2: running up to us and goes, Scott, I do not

1605
01:21:21,280 --> 01:21:23,559
Speaker 2: want you to touch her. Jody said, well, he's just

1606
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:25,800
Speaker 2: helping me in, and then he says, remember back when

1607
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:27,320
Speaker 2: we did that reading, and I told you too that

1608
01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:30,160
Speaker 2: you couldn't play that relationship. Well, it exists on the screen.

1609
01:21:30,400 --> 01:21:32,200
Speaker 2: I see it in every frame of the footage. I

1610
01:21:32,200 --> 01:21:33,920
Speaker 2: watched the two of you, and I just know that

1611
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:36,040
Speaker 2: instinctively that if you touch in this scene it's going

1612
01:21:36,080 --> 01:21:38,280
Speaker 2: to blow it all. You should only touch her once

1613
01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:40,839
Speaker 2: at the end when you shake her hand. That handshake

1614
01:21:40,880 --> 01:21:43,040
Speaker 2: will be so loaded and it only works if you

1615
01:21:43,080 --> 01:21:47,719
Speaker 2: don't do that. It's a good point. Frankie Faisan plays

1616
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:50,200
Speaker 2: the orderly. Barney had just starred as the Landlord in

1617
01:21:50,280 --> 01:21:52,640
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight's Coming to America when he was up

1618
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:56,440
Speaker 2: for Silence, and he had actually appeared as a detective

1619
01:21:56,600 --> 01:22:01,479
Speaker 2: in Manhunter, the original Red Dragon adaptation. Jonathan Demi had

1620
01:22:01,479 --> 01:22:03,200
Speaker 2: a thing about not wanting to hire any of the

1621
01:22:03,240 --> 01:22:06,160
Speaker 2: crew who did Manhunter, but like a few people, somehow

1622
01:22:06,200 --> 01:22:09,559
Speaker 2: sneaked in so frankiefies On got himself cast in Silence,

1623
01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:12,360
Speaker 2: and then he reprised that same role of Barney the

1624
01:22:12,439 --> 01:22:16,000
Speaker 2: orderly in Hannibal and in the Red Dragon remake, which

1625
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:19,040
Speaker 2: makes him the actor with the most appearances in the

1626
01:22:19,120 --> 01:22:22,280
Speaker 2: lector verse. Nice, he said to the AV Club, I

1627
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:24,080
Speaker 2: think it was a crossword puzzle answer in the New

1628
01:22:24,160 --> 01:22:28,240
Speaker 2: York Times. What more can you ask for? Anthony Held

1629
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:32,160
Speaker 2: plays the oily doctor Chilton, the head of the psychiatric hospital,

1630
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:34,880
Speaker 2: who grossly overplays his hand against Lecter and winds up

1631
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:37,000
Speaker 2: paying the price. Demi had seen quite a lot of

1632
01:22:37,040 --> 01:22:40,000
Speaker 2: Heald's drama work on stage in New York and contacted him.

1633
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:42,360
Speaker 2: Heald wanted to play Chilt from the outset, but Demi

1634
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:45,000
Speaker 2: didn't think he was old enough. A couple weeks after

1635
01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:48,320
Speaker 2: his audition and this talk, Hal told the AV Club,

1636
01:22:48,400 --> 01:22:50,559
Speaker 2: I get news we're going to do a reading. Jodie

1637
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:52,840
Speaker 2: Foster has been hired as Clarice and Gene Hackman has

1638
01:22:52,840 --> 01:22:55,439
Speaker 2: been hired as Hannibal. The day before the reading, I

1639
01:22:55,439 --> 01:22:58,080
Speaker 2: get a call from Jonathan Gene Hackman has dropped out.

1640
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:00,080
Speaker 2: His daughter doesn't think it's the right role for him,

1641
01:23:00,360 --> 01:23:02,360
Speaker 2: so we don't have a Hannibal, but we still want

1642
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:04,559
Speaker 2: to do the reading. Jody is flying in. This is

1643
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:06,639
Speaker 2: not an audition. I would not cast you in this role,

1644
01:23:06,800 --> 01:23:09,160
Speaker 2: but it would help us out if you would, tomorrow,

1645
01:23:09,200 --> 01:23:11,360
Speaker 2: at the reading read the part of Hannibal Lecter. I

1646
01:23:11,400 --> 01:23:13,880
Speaker 2: said sure. So for the first time we read the script,

1647
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:15,880
Speaker 2: I was sitting across the table from Jody, and I

1648
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:18,760
Speaker 2: was playing Hannibal. I had a great time. After the reading,

1649
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:21,200
Speaker 2: Jonathan took me aside and said, you can play chiltin.

1650
01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:24,920
Speaker 2: You convinced me when I told Jonathan in that first

1651
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:26,800
Speaker 2: meeting that I wanted to be Chilt and he said why,

1652
01:23:27,240 --> 01:23:29,840
Speaker 2: I said, well, I always played lovable nerds. Chilton is

1653
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:32,400
Speaker 2: much more complicated, less sympathetic, and I think it would

1654
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:34,680
Speaker 2: be exciting for me to explore that. I think that

1655
01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:36,920
Speaker 2: my sort of boyish, pleasant demeanor would set up a

1656
01:23:36,960 --> 01:23:39,839
Speaker 2: nice contrast with what's coming out of that character's insides.

1657
01:23:40,360 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 2: But much like Ted Levine, he wound up tight cast

1658
01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:45,719
Speaker 2: as a weasly dickhead for the next chunk of his career.

1659
01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:48,040
Speaker 1: And you can't self identify as a boyish.

1660
01:23:48,400 --> 01:23:52,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that dude's boyish in like nineteen fifties years when

1661
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:54,559
Speaker 2: people aged it seven times the right they do now.

1662
01:23:56,280 --> 01:23:58,960
Speaker 2: Though the film takes place in the DC, Virginia area,

1663
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:02,040
Speaker 2: the film was shot in and around Pittsburgh after extensive

1664
01:24:02,120 --> 01:24:05,880
Speaker 2: canvassing by Demi and producer Kenneth Utt, who has a

1665
01:24:05,920 --> 01:24:12,000
Speaker 2: cameo as the funeral Mertu. The city's Natural History Museum

1666
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:14,400
Speaker 2: is where Starling gets the bug found in the autopsy,

1667
01:24:14,479 --> 01:24:16,920
Speaker 2: and that model is constructed of a mixture of Tutsi

1668
01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:19,439
Speaker 2: rolls and gummy bears because it was actually in that

1669
01:24:19,479 --> 01:24:23,320
Speaker 2: woman's throat, which is horrifying. I don't know how you

1670
01:24:23,800 --> 01:24:24,040
Speaker 2: how you?

1671
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:24,519
Speaker 3: Oh?

1672
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:29,240
Speaker 2: No? The Soldiers and Sailors Museum in Pittsburgh is where

1673
01:24:29,280 --> 01:24:31,840
Speaker 2: Elector makes his terrifying escape from. And that hit a

1674
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:34,320
Speaker 2: little too close to home for good old ted Levine,

1675
01:24:34,320 --> 01:24:36,760
Speaker 2: he told the Chicago Reader. Once I got the part,

1676
01:24:36,840 --> 01:24:39,760
Speaker 2: I was looking at location scouting photographs. They said, this

1677
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:43,400
Speaker 2: may be Gum's house. I'm thinking this house looks really familiar.

1678
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:46,479
Speaker 2: They told me we found this really awful, god forsaken

1679
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:49,200
Speaker 2: coal mining town on the Ohio River. And I said

1680
01:24:49,240 --> 01:24:52,360
Speaker 2: bel Air, Ohio, And they said, yes, I grew up

1681
01:24:52,400 --> 01:24:55,280
Speaker 2: in Belair, and the house they were thinking to be

1682
01:24:55,320 --> 01:24:57,360
Speaker 2: Gum's house was next door to the house of my

1683
01:24:57,439 --> 01:25:01,400
Speaker 2: girlfriend when I was in the third grade. The hospital, though,

1684
01:25:01,439 --> 01:25:04,080
Speaker 2: this is really interesting. Every shot you see of the

1685
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:06,280
Speaker 2: hospital that she goes to visit Elector in is a

1686
01:25:06,320 --> 01:25:09,439
Speaker 2: different location. So like the Anthony Heil talked about, they

1687
01:25:09,439 --> 01:25:11,160
Speaker 2: would go and just do like a pickup of them,

1688
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:14,760
Speaker 2: like walking through the offices, and that was like a jail, uh,

1689
01:25:14,960 --> 01:25:17,000
Speaker 2: And then they would go somewhere else and that like

1690
01:25:17,040 --> 01:25:19,679
Speaker 2: that cool staircase shot that they're going at, the concentric

1691
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:23,200
Speaker 2: staircase thing, that's like a third location. And then the dungeon.

1692
01:25:23,280 --> 01:25:26,320
Speaker 2: The cell block where Lector is is obviously a set

1693
01:25:26,360 --> 01:25:30,200
Speaker 2: and production designer Christy z said that she took influence

1694
01:25:30,360 --> 01:25:34,000
Speaker 2: from where the Nazis were on trial at Nuremberg, not

1695
01:25:34,160 --> 01:25:36,479
Speaker 2: the Memphis one. I forget what I don't I didn't

1696
01:25:36,520 --> 01:25:38,439
Speaker 2: read actually what she said about the cell block in

1697
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:43,800
Speaker 2: the freestanding cell in the one in the Memphis one.

1698
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:46,680
Speaker 1: I'm just stuck on the escape though, I mean that

1699
01:25:46,840 --> 01:25:50,040
Speaker 1: is just the whole I mean, visually, it's so stunning.

1700
01:25:50,080 --> 01:25:51,960
Speaker 1: I mean, just this giant cage in the middle of

1701
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:54,639
Speaker 1: the room. It just seems like that that's in the book. Yeah,

1702
01:25:55,479 --> 01:25:59,879
Speaker 1: the least efficient way to keep a prisoner.

1703
01:26:00,439 --> 01:26:01,840
Speaker 2: I think it might have been another I think it

1704
01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:04,920
Speaker 2: might have been another visual callback to I mean, I

1705
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:07,479
Speaker 2: didn't read anybody about this. I'm just spitballing. But when

1706
01:26:07,520 --> 01:26:10,920
Speaker 2: the when they put Andre Chikatillo on trial, who was

1707
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 2: the like the most famous Russian serial killer that they

1708
01:26:14,760 --> 01:26:17,360
Speaker 2: they put him in just later though, right, no, because

1709
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:19,360
Speaker 2: he was dead by ninety four. Oh no, you're right

1710
01:26:19,400 --> 01:26:22,519
Speaker 2: he was. He wasn't on trial until ninety two. Yeah,

1711
01:26:22,520 --> 01:26:25,720
Speaker 2: you're right, I stay corrected. I should know better. I

1712
01:26:25,760 --> 01:26:27,880
Speaker 2: was gonna stayal I was gonna say I should know

1713
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:30,240
Speaker 2: better than the not come correct.

1714
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:33,439
Speaker 1: So I love this escape so much. But apparently one

1715
01:26:33,479 --> 01:26:36,679
Speaker 1: person who does not is Hannibal Lecter himself. Anthony Hopkins.

1716
01:26:37,280 --> 01:26:40,120
Speaker 1: He said that was particularly unpleasant. I guess he's referring

1717
01:26:40,120 --> 01:26:42,920
Speaker 1: to eating the guy's face. I did not enjoy that.

1718
01:26:42,920 --> 01:26:45,559
Speaker 1: That was shot around three am. It is an all

1719
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:49,720
Speaker 1: time quote. Eating someone's face off is kind of ridiculous.

1720
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:53,200
Speaker 2: It is, Yeah, it is.

1721
01:26:53,240 --> 01:26:55,360
Speaker 1: It's true that they did that whole face biting thing

1722
01:26:55,439 --> 01:27:01,200
Speaker 1: by having I think rubber like teeth guards in Anthony Hopkins'

1723
01:27:01,240 --> 01:27:04,160
Speaker 1: mouth and then like a rubber mouthguard in the other

1724
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:06,360
Speaker 1: guy's mouth with like a little bit that's stuck out.

1725
01:27:06,720 --> 01:27:09,920
Speaker 1: So Anthony Hopkins is like biting with like rubber mouthguard,

1726
01:27:10,240 --> 01:27:12,400
Speaker 1: like a piece of rubber in this other guy's mouth.

1727
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:15,280
Speaker 1: So that's how that effect was true year to guess.

1728
01:27:16,000 --> 01:27:19,840
Speaker 1: And then the all the elegant night stick beating where

1729
01:27:19,880 --> 01:27:23,280
Speaker 1: it looks like he's almost conducting. Yeah, that was done

1730
01:27:23,280 --> 01:27:25,920
Speaker 1: by hitting a rolled up sound blanket wrapped up with

1731
01:27:26,000 --> 01:27:29,280
Speaker 1: gaffer tape, and there was a grip down below throwing

1732
01:27:29,320 --> 01:27:32,719
Speaker 1: up fake blood onto Anthony hopkins face every time he would.

1733
01:27:32,560 --> 01:27:34,320
Speaker 2: Strike a blow or land a blow.

1734
01:27:35,160 --> 01:27:38,160
Speaker 1: And then that grotesque tableau that lect their stages with

1735
01:27:38,200 --> 01:27:41,000
Speaker 1: the cops body and the christ pose on the cage

1736
01:27:41,200 --> 01:27:43,839
Speaker 1: that was inspired by Francis Bacon painting.

1737
01:27:44,280 --> 01:27:46,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did read that they're in the Museum of

1738
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:48,559
Speaker 2: Moving Image. I saw a couple of them. How did

1739
01:27:48,600 --> 01:27:49,800
Speaker 2: he get that guy up there?

1740
01:27:51,320 --> 01:27:51,920
Speaker 1: Handcuffs?

1741
01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:55,519
Speaker 2: I lift him up there, you carry him up a ladder.

1742
01:27:55,920 --> 01:27:58,160
Speaker 2: I don't know how much time do we think that

1743
01:27:58,240 --> 01:28:00,800
Speaker 2: took start to fit? That's a great question, because you

1744
01:28:00,800 --> 01:28:03,200
Speaker 2: think he has to he has to take the other guy.

1745
01:28:03,360 --> 01:28:05,800
Speaker 2: He has to take the other guy, change clothes, take

1746
01:28:05,840 --> 01:28:07,920
Speaker 2: that guy and throw him on top of an elevator.

1747
01:28:08,360 --> 01:28:11,559
Speaker 1: Oh if I could take his face, take his face, Yeah,

1748
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:13,599
Speaker 1: take his face, throw him on the at the top

1749
01:28:13,640 --> 01:28:17,000
Speaker 1: of the bracket. I don't really, I don't have access

1750
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:20,040
Speaker 1: to the face taking. Take taking some other take face.

1751
01:28:20,320 --> 01:28:24,320
Speaker 2: Oh I do. It's about ten minutes. Yea, yeah, facial

1752
01:28:28,000 --> 01:28:34,120
Speaker 2: come down to McDonald's for the new facial FILET Well,

1753
01:28:34,120 --> 01:28:35,599
Speaker 2: I'll be having you for dinner.

1754
01:28:37,240 --> 01:28:42,240
Speaker 1: But up, up, up. We're gonna take a quick break,

1755
01:28:42,400 --> 01:28:44,840
Speaker 1: but we'll be right back with more too much information

1756
01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:45,799
Speaker 1: in just a Moment.

1757
01:28:57,400 --> 01:29:01,559
Speaker 2: Ray Mendez, whose credits include bug centric films like Creep

1758
01:29:01,600 --> 01:29:05,280
Speaker 2: Show and Later Joe's Apartment, served as the moth wrangler

1759
01:29:05,320 --> 01:29:09,320
Speaker 2: and stylist for Silence of the Lambs Every Guy. Everything

1760
01:29:09,360 --> 01:29:11,920
Speaker 2: he says regarding the moths was accurate in the movie.

1761
01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:15,080
Speaker 2: They even borrowed some of his cases to use in

1762
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:18,559
Speaker 2: Gum's Layer. The only thing that he had trouble was

1763
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:21,559
Speaker 2: finding the Death's Head Hawk moths, since there was only

1764
01:29:21,600 --> 01:29:24,320
Speaker 2: one colony at the time, it was in England and

1765
01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:27,840
Speaker 2: they were recovering from a virus. So he got the

1766
01:29:27,880 --> 01:29:30,680
Speaker 2: idea to use another species of moth and dress it

1767
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:33,839
Speaker 2: in a little costume. Which is so adorable. He painted

1768
01:29:34,120 --> 01:29:36,280
Speaker 2: the little death's head the little skull onto a fake

1769
01:29:36,439 --> 01:29:41,320
Speaker 2: press on fingernail, and then used a dissolvable glue to

1770
01:29:41,479 --> 01:29:43,479
Speaker 2: affix it to the moth in a way that wouldn't

1771
01:29:43,479 --> 01:29:46,160
Speaker 2: harm it. He told Rolling Stone. When Clarice's going down

1772
01:29:46,200 --> 01:29:48,120
Speaker 2: the corridor and there's moths flying, I've got all these

1773
01:29:48,160 --> 01:29:50,080
Speaker 2: moths that are ready to go in the box. I'm

1774
01:29:50,160 --> 01:29:52,679
Speaker 2: running in front of the camera out of view, throwing

1775
01:29:52,800 --> 01:29:55,519
Speaker 2: moths like the Romans used to do with rose petals.

1776
01:29:55,920 --> 01:30:02,759
Speaker 2: Incredible movie magic. Because they were shooting in the cold

1777
01:30:02,840 --> 01:30:05,960
Speaker 2: part of the States during a record cold winter, the

1778
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:08,519
Speaker 2: moths had to be kept in a separate heated environment,

1779
01:30:08,640 --> 01:30:10,560
Speaker 2: and I heard that the cast members were joking to

1780
01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:13,280
Speaker 2: this guy, hey, can you represent me next time because

1781
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:16,479
Speaker 2: the moths had to be kept they had their own

1782
01:30:16,520 --> 01:30:18,759
Speaker 2: heated compartment, and he would have to say, Okay, moth's

1783
01:30:18,760 --> 01:30:20,479
Speaker 2: got to take a break, and Jonathan Demi would be like,

1784
01:30:20,479 --> 01:30:25,120
Speaker 2: all right, break for moths. Meanwhile, Jodie Foster's shooting in

1785
01:30:25,120 --> 01:30:27,400
Speaker 2: twenty two straight hours in that horrific basement.

1786
01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:31,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, this moth wrangler slash stylist is wildly entertaining. He

1787
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:34,280
Speaker 1: said that he would keep the larva in an heated

1788
01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:37,000
Speaker 1: incubator when he noticed that they were starting to I

1789
01:30:37,000 --> 01:30:38,559
Speaker 1: guess they were hatching. I don't know what the correct

1790
01:30:38,640 --> 01:30:40,880
Speaker 1: term is. And then he would put them in a refrigerator,

1791
01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:43,880
Speaker 1: which emphasized didn't hurt the moths. He was very, very

1792
01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:46,879
Speaker 1: concerned about the moths well being, but slow their activity

1793
01:30:46,920 --> 01:30:49,120
Speaker 1: down because they're cold blooded. So then it was time

1794
01:30:49,160 --> 01:30:51,000
Speaker 1: for Buffalo Bill to shoot the scene with them. He'd

1795
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:52,800
Speaker 1: take them out of the fridge and in the room,

1796
01:30:53,080 --> 01:30:55,400
Speaker 1: and the room temperature would lead them to like heap

1797
01:30:55,439 --> 01:30:57,439
Speaker 1: back up again, and they start to wiggles as soon

1798
01:30:57,479 --> 01:31:00,680
Speaker 1: as Ted Levine started handling them, which I think is

1799
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:05,800
Speaker 1: pretty cool and gross and gross, Yeah, very gross. And

1800
01:31:05,840 --> 01:31:08,679
Speaker 1: there's this one documentary where you have got the guy

1801
01:31:08,680 --> 01:31:13,559
Speaker 1: playing Buffalo Bill. He says in his Buffalo Bill voice,

1802
01:31:13,600 --> 01:31:15,599
Speaker 1: there were no moths harmed in the making of Silence

1803
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:18,200
Speaker 1: of the Lamps, which is hilarious.

1804
01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:22,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, man really doesn't have a creepy voice for the ages.

1805
01:31:22,520 --> 01:31:22,800
Speaker 1: Yes.

1806
01:31:23,560 --> 01:31:23,720
Speaker 2: Well.

1807
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:25,760
Speaker 1: Much of Buffalo Bill's lair was built on a sound

1808
01:31:25,840 --> 01:31:29,479
Speaker 1: stage the house in Perreopolis, Pennsylvania, in which the upstairs

1809
01:31:29,520 --> 01:31:31,880
Speaker 1: and exteriors were filmed was on the market for many,

1810
01:31:31,920 --> 01:31:35,200
Speaker 1: many years because no one wanted to live in Bill's

1811
01:31:35,240 --> 01:31:39,799
Speaker 1: house until twenty twenty, when an entrepreneur named Chris Rowan

1812
01:31:39,920 --> 01:31:44,599
Speaker 1: bought the decidedly dilapidated for bedroom Victorian for just two

1813
01:31:44,680 --> 01:31:47,600
Speaker 1: hundred and ninety thousand dollars, and he since turned it

1814
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:51,880
Speaker 1: into an airbnb and attraction. And he even enlisted the

1815
01:31:51,920 --> 01:31:55,439
Speaker 1: help of the Pittsburgh special effects legend Tom Savini and

1816
01:31:55,479 --> 01:31:58,519
Speaker 1: the nearby Special Effects Academy to help recreate the well

1817
01:31:58,760 --> 01:32:02,280
Speaker 1: the pit in the basement where Catherine was kept, which

1818
01:32:02,320 --> 01:32:04,800
Speaker 1: in reality was done on a separate sound stage. So yeah,

1819
01:32:04,840 --> 01:32:08,519
Speaker 1: you can stay in Buffalo Bill's House and sleep in

1820
01:32:08,560 --> 01:32:12,920
Speaker 1: the pit if you want, if that's your thing. But

1821
01:32:12,960 --> 01:32:15,040
Speaker 1: Buffalo Bill's House is not the only silence of the

1822
01:32:15,080 --> 01:32:17,840
Speaker 1: Lamb's location you can visit in the Pittsburgh area either.

1823
01:32:18,560 --> 01:32:22,439
Speaker 1: Every Halloween season, the Soldiers and Sailors Memorial Hall, where

1824
01:32:22,600 --> 01:32:25,840
Speaker 1: Hannibal Elector's bloody escape occurs, holds the silence of the

1825
01:32:25,920 --> 01:32:29,840
Speaker 1: Lambs themed event, presumably in that very room, and a

1826
01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:32,800
Speaker 1: local horror attraction company, a hundred acres Manor built a

1827
01:32:32,840 --> 01:32:36,880
Speaker 1: replica of the freestanding cage the Hannibal Elector escapes from

1828
01:32:37,160 --> 01:32:39,920
Speaker 1: and they erect it in the cavernous Hall for photos

1829
01:32:39,960 --> 01:32:44,680
Speaker 1: and such rotesque costplaying. I suppose.

1830
01:32:47,240 --> 01:32:51,280
Speaker 2: No segue here. Howard Shore composed the score for Silence

1831
01:32:51,280 --> 01:32:53,799
Speaker 2: of the Lambs was recorded with the Munich Symphony Orchestra.

1832
01:32:54,760 --> 01:32:57,760
Speaker 2: I think it's a great score. I'm baffled by when

1833
01:32:57,760 --> 01:32:59,840
Speaker 2: I was researching it, I just did not find anything

1834
01:32:59,840 --> 01:33:02,599
Speaker 2: for interesting about it. They said it was kind of

1835
01:33:02,640 --> 01:33:05,559
Speaker 2: like they wanted something that wasn't going to be like

1836
01:33:05,560 --> 01:33:08,519
Speaker 2: the score for Psycho or like Jaws, Like they didn't

1837
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:12,720
Speaker 2: want everyone to have like an instantly identifiable theme that

1838
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:14,080
Speaker 2: was going to jump out of the way. I think

1839
01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:17,760
Speaker 2: they wanted it to be kind of unobtrusive and you

1840
01:33:17,800 --> 01:33:24,200
Speaker 2: know more. I guess wallpapery, so good job. Aside from

1841
01:33:24,200 --> 01:33:27,320
Speaker 2: Goodbye Horses an American Girl, Probably the most famous Q

1842
01:33:27,800 --> 01:33:31,480
Speaker 2: in the film is Glenn Gould playing Box Goldberg variations,

1843
01:33:31,479 --> 01:33:37,000
Speaker 2: which Lecter conducts later following that escape. I found a

1844
01:33:37,000 --> 01:33:40,920
Speaker 2: long scholarly paper called doctor Lecter's Taste for Goldberg or

1845
01:33:41,400 --> 01:33:44,800
Speaker 2: the Horror of Bach in the Hannibal Franchise from a

1846
01:33:44,800 --> 01:33:48,440
Speaker 2: twenty twelve issue of the Journal of the Royal musical association,

1847
01:33:48,680 --> 01:33:51,360
Speaker 2: but I won't bore you with that. Just funny. I

1848
01:33:51,360 --> 01:33:51,920
Speaker 2: think it's out.

1849
01:33:51,840 --> 01:33:54,320
Speaker 1: There, doctor Lector's taste for Goldberg. I see what you

1850
01:33:54,360 --> 01:33:55,120
Speaker 1: did there. Nice.

1851
01:33:55,280 --> 01:33:57,240
Speaker 2: The puns write themselves with this stuff. Really, I mean,

1852
01:33:57,240 --> 01:33:59,040
Speaker 2: it's kind of the you don't really have to do

1853
01:33:59,120 --> 01:33:59,719
Speaker 2: too much.

1854
01:34:00,680 --> 01:34:02,519
Speaker 1: Well, kind of touching on what you said earlier, Howard

1855
01:34:02,560 --> 01:34:05,280
Speaker 1: Shore made a really interesting observation about his score. He

1856
01:34:05,320 --> 01:34:07,880
Speaker 1: said that it was more operatic than most movies scores,

1857
01:34:07,960 --> 01:34:11,080
Speaker 1: certainly most horror scores, because it was designed to underpin

1858
01:34:11,200 --> 01:34:13,439
Speaker 1: the emotion of the scenes, which I know, I guess

1859
01:34:13,479 --> 01:34:16,080
Speaker 1: you could argue that all scores do that, but this

1860
01:34:16,120 --> 01:34:19,320
Speaker 1: one on a more subtle level. Jonathan Demi said that

1861
01:34:19,360 --> 01:34:22,240
Speaker 1: the music was something that was felt rather than heard,

1862
01:34:22,520 --> 01:34:25,640
Speaker 1: and I would agree with that. Yeah, I mean I

1863
01:34:25,680 --> 01:34:28,800
Speaker 1: watched whole scenes from this, you know, a couple hours

1864
01:34:28,840 --> 01:34:31,240
Speaker 1: before we taped, and I can't remember a single one,

1865
01:34:31,280 --> 01:34:33,160
Speaker 1: but I remember they were very affecting.

1866
01:34:33,960 --> 01:34:35,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. So much more interesting to me than any of

1867
01:34:36,000 --> 01:34:39,640
Speaker 2: that is the actual sound design of the film. They

1868
01:34:39,680 --> 01:34:43,080
Speaker 2: actually had two separate teams. They had not just the

1869
01:34:43,520 --> 01:34:45,479
Speaker 2: kind of the foldy guys whose job it is to

1870
01:34:45,479 --> 01:34:47,680
Speaker 2: be like Okay, you know, here's the sound of these

1871
01:34:47,720 --> 01:34:49,880
Speaker 2: guys walking across a room, or here's the sound of

1872
01:34:49,920 --> 01:34:52,639
Speaker 2: the cell door clanking. They had another team whose job

1873
01:34:52,680 --> 01:34:56,040
Speaker 2: is to just find weird stuff and bury it in

1874
01:34:56,080 --> 01:34:58,200
Speaker 2: the mix to create kind of the ambiance. And those

1875
01:34:58,200 --> 01:35:04,080
Speaker 2: guys are Skip Leave saying Ron Bushar, and there's anti Chin, Yes,

1876
01:35:04,200 --> 01:35:08,320
Speaker 2: there's room tones. In nineteen ninety five issue of Ciniste,

1877
01:35:08,320 --> 01:35:11,240
Speaker 2: Bushar explained that for Clarice's first visit to Lector in

1878
01:35:11,280 --> 01:35:14,960
Speaker 2: the hospital, there were animal screams and noises built into

1879
01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:17,680
Speaker 2: the ambiance itself down there from a movie I had

1880
01:35:17,680 --> 01:35:20,360
Speaker 2: made years ago called Little Monsters. I took this lunatic

1881
01:35:20,479 --> 01:35:23,240
Speaker 2: kind of screaming that I had recorded. I took the track,

1882
01:35:23,320 --> 01:35:26,040
Speaker 2: processed it, slowed it down, and played it in reverse.

1883
01:35:26,520 --> 01:35:28,519
Speaker 2: That became one of the ambiences in the room too.

1884
01:35:29,479 --> 01:35:31,360
Speaker 2: It's the room tone, but the room tone has been

1885
01:35:31,400 --> 01:35:36,240
Speaker 2: made from some guy screaming in pain. Fitting Skip Leaves

1886
01:35:36,400 --> 01:35:38,040
Speaker 2: told The New York Times nine tenety one that for

1887
01:35:38,080 --> 01:35:41,080
Speaker 2: Bill's Lair, he used the sound of rain falling in

1888
01:35:41,120 --> 01:35:44,559
Speaker 2: an Amazonian forest, and then he slowed it down to

1889
01:35:44,640 --> 01:35:48,280
Speaker 2: the point where just the occasional drop or plink would

1890
01:35:48,360 --> 01:35:52,479
Speaker 2: sound like like a and then he further distorted that

1891
01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:56,120
Speaker 2: electronically and also in the mix buried deep within there

1892
01:35:56,160 --> 01:35:58,920
Speaker 2: in Bill's basement scene is like a sound of an

1893
01:35:58,920 --> 01:36:03,919
Speaker 2: oil rig, the barking of seals, the howling of wolves.

1894
01:36:05,040 --> 01:36:06,720
Speaker 2: I haven't listened to this movie on like, I haven't

1895
01:36:06,760 --> 01:36:09,439
Speaker 2: watched it on headphones yet, but I actually want to

1896
01:36:09,479 --> 01:36:12,080
Speaker 2: go back because, you know, another thing that they talk

1897
01:36:12,120 --> 01:36:16,479
Speaker 2: about is supposedly when they do the whole you know,

1898
01:36:16,880 --> 01:36:19,320
Speaker 2: his heartbeat never got above eighty five, even when he

1899
01:36:19,400 --> 01:36:22,880
Speaker 2: was eating her tongue. They said they buried they make

1900
01:36:22,960 --> 01:36:26,679
Speaker 2: the sound mix sound like heart beats, which is really

1901
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:29,599
Speaker 2: interesting and wow, horrifying.

1902
01:36:29,080 --> 01:36:31,519
Speaker 1: For a movie that didn't have a huge budget. Yeah,

1903
01:36:31,520 --> 01:36:34,280
Speaker 1: I really admire the extra mile they went with.

1904
01:36:34,200 --> 01:36:38,880
Speaker 2: Those, Yeah, Leevesay said in an interview with designingsound dot Org.

1905
01:36:39,040 --> 01:36:41,479
Speaker 2: Jonathan would have to, you know, battle with the rest

1906
01:36:41,479 --> 01:36:43,120
Speaker 2: of the crew to put our stuff in. But he

1907
01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:45,000
Speaker 2: really liked it, and he convinced them all to be

1908
01:36:45,080 --> 01:36:48,040
Speaker 2: quiet and let him experiment with this stuff. And oftentimes

1909
01:36:48,040 --> 01:36:50,519
Speaker 2: that meant taking out Howard Shore's score and listening to

1910
01:36:50,600 --> 01:36:53,080
Speaker 2: these sounds, and he had to endure this crush of

1911
01:36:53,120 --> 01:36:55,920
Speaker 2: negative vibe like you're ruining the film? Are you putting

1912
01:36:55,920 --> 01:36:58,120
Speaker 2: all that noise in there? The music is so great

1913
01:36:58,640 --> 01:37:02,400
Speaker 2: and Jonathan bless his heart, endured all that. Demi told

1914
01:37:02,400 --> 01:37:04,760
Speaker 2: the Director's Guild and interview with Silence of the Lambs,

1915
01:37:04,840 --> 01:37:08,320
Speaker 2: we wanted to create this mood of extraordinary dread and suspense.

1916
01:37:08,640 --> 01:37:11,720
Speaker 2: Even before we started shooting for the scene where Clarice

1917
01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:15,080
Speaker 2: first meets doctor Lecter, I talked to production mixer Chris

1918
01:37:15,160 --> 01:37:17,719
Speaker 2: Newman about what would lead us to a sense of dread?

1919
01:37:18,080 --> 01:37:19,960
Speaker 2: Are there ways you can mike this? Is there b

1920
01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:22,120
Speaker 2: roll you can get? How can we make it feel

1921
01:37:22,160 --> 01:37:24,400
Speaker 2: like Clarice is literally going to hell in this meeting?

1922
01:37:24,640 --> 01:37:26,320
Speaker 2: And you wind up with things like let's make it

1923
01:37:26,360 --> 01:37:28,920
Speaker 2: sound like she's in a submarine, and then let's get

1924
01:37:28,960 --> 01:37:33,479
Speaker 2: humpback whale sounds and mix them in. Writing on Silence

1925
01:37:33,560 --> 01:37:36,080
Speaker 2: of Lambs in nineteen ninety two, Roger Ebert pointed out

1926
01:37:36,080 --> 01:37:40,320
Speaker 2: the film's sound design is also focused on breath in

1927
01:37:40,360 --> 01:37:42,400
Speaker 2: a way that you wouldn't ordinate like the even the

1928
01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:45,160
Speaker 2: foley stuff, like people's breaths are highlighted in the way

1929
01:37:45,200 --> 01:37:47,120
Speaker 2: that you because if you think about your normal film,

1930
01:37:47,120 --> 01:37:49,360
Speaker 2: even something that's very dialogue heavy. You don't hear people

1931
01:37:49,400 --> 01:37:53,639
Speaker 2: breathe because it's just considered distracting, right unless it's designed

1932
01:37:53,640 --> 01:37:55,360
Speaker 2: to be part of the mix, and it was very

1933
01:37:55,400 --> 01:37:57,200
Speaker 2: much so in this film. And the movie is actually

1934
01:37:57,240 --> 01:38:00,760
Speaker 2: book ended with Clarice's breath because if you remember, it

1935
01:38:00,800 --> 01:38:02,960
Speaker 2: opens up with her jogging the training course and so

1936
01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:06,000
Speaker 2: you know, get the sound of her exhalations she's winded.

1937
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:09,040
Speaker 2: And then again in the night vision scene that the

1938
01:38:09,080 --> 01:38:12,000
Speaker 2: whole thing closes with you just hear her after she

1939
01:38:12,040 --> 01:38:16,040
Speaker 2: shoots him, just like breathing heavily, and he is exhaling

1940
01:38:16,080 --> 01:38:19,839
Speaker 2: his last breaths. And of course I would be remiss

1941
01:38:19,880 --> 01:38:22,719
Speaker 2: if I didn't mention one of my favorite creepiest, weirdest

1942
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:26,080
Speaker 2: Easter eggs. When that moth chrysaliss is pulled out of

1943
01:38:25,880 --> 01:38:30,760
Speaker 2: the corpse's throat at the autopsy, the corpse exhales, this.

1944
01:38:30,920 --> 01:38:32,760
Speaker 1: Dying breath has been plugged.

1945
01:38:32,920 --> 01:38:38,360
Speaker 2: Oh so upsetting and so perfect. And then there's a

1946
01:38:38,400 --> 01:38:41,360
Speaker 2: point at which Clarice like exhales, right, she just like

1947
01:38:41,400 --> 01:38:44,760
Speaker 2: blows out her breath and you and Lecter immediately inhales

1948
01:38:44,920 --> 01:38:47,800
Speaker 2: like he's trying to breathe her breath. In just the

1949
01:38:47,880 --> 01:38:49,960
Speaker 2: little touches in this and that, and it all blays

1950
01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:52,559
Speaker 2: into what I said earlier about how it's gothic. Like

1951
01:38:52,640 --> 01:38:56,759
Speaker 2: every single location in this movie is like a haunted house.

1952
01:38:57,360 --> 01:39:00,160
Speaker 2: Even like even the sterility of like the f the

1953
01:39:00,240 --> 01:39:07,240
Speaker 2: I headquarters all have this kind of claustrophobic, dense ambiance

1954
01:39:07,320 --> 01:39:10,880
Speaker 2: to them. It's so great. But despite all the fraught

1955
01:39:10,920 --> 01:39:14,040
Speaker 2: filming scenarios, locations and dynamics, the atmosphere on the set

1956
01:39:14,120 --> 01:39:16,479
Speaker 2: was pretty lighthearted. As you mentioned earlier, they had Hawaiian

1957
01:39:16,560 --> 01:39:21,639
Speaker 2: shirt Fridays and on they celebrated Valentine's Day while shooting.

1958
01:39:22,040 --> 01:39:24,519
Speaker 2: Brooke Smith said the crew ate lamb and made the

1959
01:39:24,520 --> 01:39:27,439
Speaker 2: blueprint of the set into a board game called the

1960
01:39:27,479 --> 01:39:32,600
Speaker 2: Gum Game. It had stuff like liposection, go back two spaces.

1961
01:39:34,120 --> 01:39:35,960
Speaker 2: The object was to save Catherine.

1962
01:39:37,040 --> 01:39:39,320
Speaker 1: There's this grape behind the scenes picture of one of

1963
01:39:39,400 --> 01:39:43,240
Speaker 1: Lecter's cellmates gleefully holding a sheet cake for his birthday

1964
01:39:43,280 --> 01:39:46,560
Speaker 1: in his cell. Yeah, it's great. One person of the

1965
01:39:46,640 --> 01:39:48,760
Speaker 1: cast is quoted as saying, you don't always get to

1966
01:39:48,800 --> 01:39:51,080
Speaker 1: have so much fun on something so awful.

1967
01:39:51,520 --> 01:39:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there was one key change from the book

1968
01:39:55,160 --> 01:39:58,200
Speaker 2: that made it to the film. In the novel, lect

1969
01:39:58,280 --> 01:40:01,439
Speaker 2: bids Clarisse farewell with a it. Actually, in the book,

1970
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:05,560
Speaker 2: if I remember correctly, she is shown to be I

1971
01:40:05,640 --> 01:40:08,920
Speaker 2: think she's like pictured in bed with the guy she

1972
01:40:08,960 --> 01:40:12,040
Speaker 2: meets at the museum who's like flirting with her, the

1973
01:40:12,280 --> 01:40:16,400
Speaker 2: one bug guy, and he comes to her graduation, so

1974
01:40:16,439 --> 01:40:18,160
Speaker 2: you do see him again in the film. But I

1975
01:40:18,200 --> 01:40:21,000
Speaker 2: think in the they like Thomas Harris makes it explicit

1976
01:40:21,040 --> 01:40:22,479
Speaker 2: that they were like dating by the end of it,

1977
01:40:23,000 --> 01:40:25,960
Speaker 2: but Ted Tally decided that wasn't cinematic enough, so he

1978
01:40:26,000 --> 01:40:28,400
Speaker 2: wrote an ending in which Lecter has the same phone

1979
01:40:28,400 --> 01:40:30,960
Speaker 2: call with Clarice, but then he hangs up and approaches

1980
01:40:31,000 --> 01:40:33,880
Speaker 2: a bound doctor Chilton. He's holding a knife and he

1981
01:40:33,920 --> 01:40:37,599
Speaker 2: says something like, well, doctor Chilton, shall we begin? Well,

1982
01:40:37,680 --> 01:40:43,160
Speaker 2: Doctor Chilton, shall we begin? Jonathan, who hadn't asked for

1983
01:40:43,160 --> 01:40:45,400
Speaker 2: a lot of changes, said, well, you know that's kind

1984
01:40:45,400 --> 01:40:48,680
Speaker 2: of icky. Ted Tally told Deadline Children is despicable and

1985
01:40:48,720 --> 01:40:52,439
Speaker 2: we don't like him, and he's a crumbbum. I love that,

1986
01:40:53,640 --> 01:40:55,639
Speaker 2: but he's still a human being and to have him

1987
01:40:55,640 --> 01:40:58,800
Speaker 2: trust up for slaughter is just too squirmy. Ted should

1988
01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:01,560
Speaker 2: we give him some kind of a fighting chain's Tally continued,

1989
01:41:01,680 --> 01:41:03,640
Speaker 2: I was a little miffed. I thought I'd been so

1990
01:41:03,760 --> 01:41:05,880
Speaker 2: clever to work out that ending. But I thought about it,

1991
01:41:05,920 --> 01:41:08,040
Speaker 2: and I said, well, what if Chiltren fled the country

1992
01:41:08,040 --> 01:41:10,680
Speaker 2: instead of hiding out in his house, only Lector has

1993
01:41:10,720 --> 01:41:13,240
Speaker 2: figured out where he went and got there first. Never

1994
01:41:13,280 --> 01:41:15,719
Speaker 2: mind how Lector would figure that out. I have no idea.

1995
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:19,800
Speaker 2: Jonathan said, so, you're proposing that the last thing we

1996
01:41:19,800 --> 01:41:21,600
Speaker 2: shoot in this movie will make us all have to

1997
01:41:21,600 --> 01:41:24,439
Speaker 2: go to a tropical island at the studio's expense. Ted

1998
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:27,280
Speaker 2: Talley said, yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting.

1999
01:41:29,000 --> 01:41:31,400
Speaker 2: But DEMI told Deadline I needed to clear this with

2000
01:41:31,479 --> 01:41:34,400
Speaker 2: Thomas Thomas Harris, who I had a minimal relationship with,

2001
01:41:34,920 --> 01:41:37,680
Speaker 2: So before we started filming, I called Tom and he

2002
01:41:37,720 --> 01:41:39,479
Speaker 2: said he wished us luck, but he was not going

2003
01:41:39,520 --> 01:41:42,639
Speaker 2: to see the movie. But we had stayed scrupulously faithful

2004
01:41:42,640 --> 01:41:44,600
Speaker 2: to his great book, and now we wanted to do

2005
01:41:44,640 --> 01:41:47,759
Speaker 2: this radical departure at the end. We were in Miami anyway,

2006
01:41:47,840 --> 01:41:50,160
Speaker 2: and so I went to Tom's house. There we sit down,

2007
01:41:50,320 --> 01:41:51,840
Speaker 2: have a nice tea, and I tell him that I

2008
01:41:51,840 --> 01:41:53,920
Speaker 2: want to change his ending. I want to see Lecter

2009
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:56,080
Speaker 2: out in the world. And how would he feel about that.

2010
01:41:56,600 --> 01:41:58,320
Speaker 2: He gave us his blessing, but he said a couple

2011
01:41:58,360 --> 01:42:00,840
Speaker 2: things I thought were great. If you take Lecter to

2012
01:42:00,880 --> 01:42:03,439
Speaker 2: the tropics, there's one thing I'm sure of, he would

2013
01:42:03,439 --> 01:42:07,000
Speaker 2: never sweat so armed with that. When you see that scene,

2014
01:42:07,080 --> 01:42:10,719
Speaker 2: everybody's sweating like crazy, except for doctor Lecter. The ending

2015
01:42:10,760 --> 01:42:13,759
Speaker 2: was shot in Bemini, off the coast of Florida, and unfortunately,

2016
01:42:13,800 --> 01:42:16,080
Speaker 2: the weather didn't cooperate for the entire week the production

2017
01:42:16,160 --> 01:42:18,320
Speaker 2: was shooting down there. It just rained and with whites

2018
01:42:18,360 --> 01:42:21,720
Speaker 2: like all overcast and gray there. Demi initially balked at

2019
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:25,320
Speaker 2: using a crane shot for that now iconic credit scene.

2020
01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:27,559
Speaker 2: He said it was going to be difficult to get

2021
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:32,160
Speaker 2: the necessary equipment on location, which sure, but Tally ted

2022
01:42:32,200 --> 01:42:35,160
Speaker 2: Tally persisted and he was correct. It's funny for the

2023
01:42:35,200 --> 01:42:38,280
Speaker 2: audio to do the overdubs for this. Anthony Hopkins had

2024
01:42:38,280 --> 01:42:41,760
Speaker 2: already started filming something in Utah. He was already out

2025
01:42:41,760 --> 01:42:44,439
Speaker 2: off that side of the country, and so they patched

2026
01:42:44,520 --> 01:42:47,840
Speaker 2: him through to Foster to record this line. But they

2027
01:42:47,840 --> 01:42:49,920
Speaker 2: didn't tell her that it was actually going to be

2028
01:42:50,040 --> 01:42:52,479
Speaker 2: him on the phone. I think they just said, Okay,

2029
01:42:52,560 --> 01:42:54,320
Speaker 2: you know, Jody, we're just going to record your lines

2030
01:42:54,320 --> 01:42:57,320
Speaker 2: and then we'll mix it up. And so they were like,

2031
01:42:57,720 --> 01:43:00,840
Speaker 2: all right, pretend I goes to hold the phone and

2032
01:43:00,880 --> 01:43:05,760
Speaker 2: Anthony Hopkins is actually on the other end doing It's horrifying.

2033
01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:08,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, Hopkins said of that shot where he's walking off

2034
01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:12,080
Speaker 1: into the crowd, just sort of vanishing, which is kind

2035
01:43:12,120 --> 01:43:16,479
Speaker 1: of the most terrifying thing. He suddenly suddenly not seeing

2036
01:43:16,560 --> 01:43:19,000
Speaker 1: Hannibal Lecter is even scarier than seeing him.

2037
01:43:18,880 --> 01:43:21,400
Speaker 2: Because you now don't know where he is. It's the best,

2038
01:43:21,520 --> 01:43:24,400
Speaker 2: is such a great, unding, great and you know everyone

2039
01:43:24,479 --> 01:43:26,719
Speaker 2: always plays the part of like you try and follow

2040
01:43:26,800 --> 01:43:29,280
Speaker 2: him as long as you can through the crowd. It's

2041
01:43:29,320 --> 01:43:31,280
Speaker 2: just a perfect, perfect ending.

2042
01:43:32,080 --> 01:43:34,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Anthony Hopkins said that he was trying to move

2043
01:43:34,040 --> 01:43:37,320
Speaker 1: like a cat chasing its kill as he was moving scans.

2044
01:43:38,360 --> 01:43:41,200
Speaker 2: After editing, a cut was shown to a small crowd

2045
01:43:41,240 --> 01:43:44,839
Speaker 2: of about seventy five people. Manager and literary agent Bob Bookman,

2046
01:43:45,160 --> 01:43:47,719
Speaker 2: who you possibly remember from the beginning of this episode

2047
01:43:47,720 --> 01:43:50,839
Speaker 2: three days ago when we started taping it. He invited

2048
01:43:51,080 --> 01:43:56,439
Speaker 2: William Goldman, which feels like a threat. If Willie Goldman

2049
01:43:56,560 --> 01:43:58,720
Speaker 2: is coming to the rough cut of your movie, you're

2050
01:43:58,760 --> 01:44:01,920
Speaker 2: sweating bullets. Obviously, one of the greatest screenwriters of all time,

2051
01:44:02,080 --> 01:44:05,559
Speaker 2: literally wrote several books about it that are still used today.

2052
01:44:06,479 --> 01:44:08,760
Speaker 2: Demi told Deadline, I got a phone call at my

2053
01:44:08,800 --> 01:44:11,920
Speaker 2: house the next day. Hi, this is William Goldman calling.

2054
01:44:12,479 --> 01:44:14,840
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, hi, God, one of my favorite

2055
01:44:14,840 --> 01:44:17,040
Speaker 2: writers of all time. He said he thought the picture

2056
01:44:17,120 --> 01:44:19,200
Speaker 2: was terrific, but he thought there was one section that

2057
01:44:19,280 --> 01:44:22,080
Speaker 2: was holding it back from its full potential. This came

2058
01:44:22,120 --> 01:44:24,479
Speaker 2: after Doctor Elector escapes and there was the scene that

2059
01:44:24,520 --> 01:44:27,840
Speaker 2: took place somewhere between eight and twelve minutes. Crawford's kicked

2060
01:44:27,840 --> 01:44:30,360
Speaker 2: off the case, Clarice's kicked out of the academy. They

2061
01:44:30,360 --> 01:44:33,000
Speaker 2: go downstairs and there's this blistering, really terrific scene on

2062
01:44:33,040 --> 01:44:37,000
Speaker 2: the steps. So Goldman said, take all that out. I'm like, what,

2063
01:44:37,240 --> 01:44:39,840
Speaker 2: that's one of the biggest scenes in the movie. Really what?

2064
01:44:40,280 --> 01:44:42,519
Speaker 2: And he says, that's what's my gut's telling me. You

2065
01:44:42,520 --> 01:44:44,320
Speaker 2: guys should really take a look at it. So I

2066
01:44:44,400 --> 01:44:47,080
Speaker 2: was like, well, thank you for this, goodbye. Demi told

2067
01:44:47,200 --> 01:44:50,200
Speaker 2: editor Craig Mackey about the call, and mackay was not happy,

2068
01:44:50,600 --> 01:44:52,439
Speaker 2: Demi said, but they went back to the editing room

2069
01:44:52,520 --> 01:44:56,000
Speaker 2: and rewatched the movie on the machine without that scene,

2070
01:44:56,160 --> 01:44:59,519
Speaker 2: and per Demi, it was just an extraordinary difference, an

2071
01:44:59,520 --> 01:45:04,360
Speaker 2: immeasure improvement. That is William Goldman. Another thing about the

2072
01:45:04,400 --> 01:45:07,080
Speaker 2: film and another reason I call it gothic again because

2073
01:45:07,120 --> 01:45:09,120
Speaker 2: like true in the sense of like gothic, whore is

2074
01:45:09,160 --> 01:45:12,160
Speaker 2: not like it is grotesque, but it's not like splattery.

2075
01:45:12,240 --> 01:45:14,639
Speaker 2: It's not gory. And that's a lot with this movie.

2076
01:45:14,680 --> 01:45:17,360
Speaker 2: There's really not that much gore that happens on screen.

2077
01:45:18,360 --> 01:45:22,760
Speaker 2: I like it, yeah, and it remains largely implied, which

2078
01:45:22,760 --> 01:45:24,519
Speaker 2: is something that Demi was keen on from the start.

2079
01:45:24,600 --> 01:45:27,880
Speaker 2: You know, he told Empire violence was not that necessary

2080
01:45:27,920 --> 01:45:31,080
Speaker 2: as an element within the film. The terror is represented

2081
01:45:31,120 --> 01:45:34,679
Speaker 2: through characterization. Jody Foster told Vanity Fair that after rewatching

2082
01:45:34,720 --> 01:45:36,360
Speaker 2: the film a couple of years back, she was struck

2083
01:45:36,400 --> 01:45:38,800
Speaker 2: by the fact there's really no blood and gore. There's

2084
01:45:38,800 --> 01:45:40,960
Speaker 2: only really one scene at all that is gory. The

2085
01:45:41,000 --> 01:45:43,960
Speaker 2: movie is so scary because it seeps into people's consciousness

2086
01:45:44,240 --> 01:45:48,040
Speaker 2: through fears. It works on fear more than anything else.

2087
01:45:48,439 --> 01:45:50,599
Speaker 2: So with the finished film. In the Can, they were

2088
01:45:50,600 --> 01:45:52,760
Speaker 2: headed towards the finish line, hampered by the fact that

2089
01:45:52,800 --> 01:45:58,599
Speaker 2: Oriyan we had no money. They were skating on Thin Nights.

2090
01:45:58,640 --> 01:46:02,200
Speaker 2: They were on a tray runaway trail train with noe

2091
01:46:02,200 --> 01:46:04,160
Speaker 2: what am I saying here? Johns and cut all this.

2092
01:46:04,800 --> 01:46:06,880
Speaker 2: They had a terrible nineteen eighty nine. They came in

2093
01:46:07,040 --> 01:46:12,280
Speaker 2: last among the larger studios. Wow. They produced a biopic

2094
01:46:12,360 --> 01:46:16,080
Speaker 2: of Jerry Lee Lewis called Great Balls of Fires, starring

2095
01:46:16,200 --> 01:46:17,120
Speaker 2: Dennis Quaid.

2096
01:46:17,840 --> 01:46:19,120
Speaker 1: It's bad, I.

2097
01:46:19,000 --> 01:46:23,479
Speaker 2: Assumed, a movie called She Devil that teamed Meryl Streep

2098
01:46:23,520 --> 01:46:28,640
Speaker 2: with Roseanne bar Speed Zone, an action comedy starring SCTV

2099
01:46:28,720 --> 01:46:32,479
Speaker 2: alumni like John Candy, Joe Flaherty and Eugene Levy. Oh,

2100
01:46:32,520 --> 01:46:36,960
Speaker 2: that seems like a good and Milo's Foreman's adaptation of

2101
01:46:37,240 --> 01:46:45,560
Speaker 2: Les Lion Dogs Valmont, which was released against another dangerous

2102
01:46:45,840 --> 01:46:51,280
Speaker 2: at Liaison's adaptation the one You've Heard of? Yeah, and

2103
01:46:51,360 --> 01:46:55,800
Speaker 2: also weird Al's uhf oh Yeah. So Oriyan made a

2104
01:46:55,840 --> 01:46:58,960
Speaker 2: lot of bad decisions. They had a couple more flops

2105
01:46:58,960 --> 01:47:02,639
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety with the hot spot State of Grace Movies.

2106
01:47:02,640 --> 01:47:06,200
Speaker 2: I've never heard. They had a huge win with Dances

2107
01:47:06,200 --> 01:47:09,000
Speaker 2: with Wolves, But that was it, and that was basically

2108
01:47:09,040 --> 01:47:11,439
Speaker 2: what was keeping them afloat, and their founder just kept

2109
01:47:11,720 --> 01:47:15,439
Speaker 2: socking more money into the company and everyone knew Silence

2110
01:47:15,479 --> 01:47:16,439
Speaker 2: was going to be a hit. They were like, we

2111
01:47:16,479 --> 01:47:18,240
Speaker 2: have a you know, we have a masterpiece on our hands.

2112
01:47:18,600 --> 01:47:22,000
Speaker 2: But Orian literally could not. They didn't have the money

2113
01:47:22,040 --> 01:47:25,080
Speaker 2: to release it during the traditional awards show season. Like

2114
01:47:25,160 --> 01:47:28,479
Speaker 2: you know, February is considered a dumping ground. January and

2115
01:47:28,479 --> 01:47:31,559
Speaker 2: early February big dumping ground for movies. You want something

2116
01:47:31,600 --> 01:47:33,280
Speaker 2: to be considered for the Oscars, you put it out

2117
01:47:33,320 --> 01:47:38,760
Speaker 2: in fall, approaching winter, and Orian literally couldn't. They're like,

2118
01:47:38,800 --> 01:47:41,240
Speaker 2: we need the cash that this movie will, you know, generate.

2119
01:47:41,720 --> 01:47:45,200
Speaker 2: So they released it on Valentine's Day nineteen ninety one,

2120
01:47:46,320 --> 01:47:50,080
Speaker 2: which ordinarily would have doomed it, but they did have

2121
01:47:50,160 --> 01:47:52,960
Speaker 2: the advantage of And the other thing too is Ryan

2122
01:47:53,040 --> 01:47:55,839
Speaker 2: had no money to campaign for it in the trades

2123
01:47:55,920 --> 01:47:58,639
Speaker 2: or anywhere, but it did have the advantage of opening

2124
01:47:58,680 --> 01:48:02,040
Speaker 2: over a long weekend Sinceday weekend and raked in nearly

2125
01:48:02,120 --> 01:48:04,880
Speaker 2: fourteen million, and then it stayed at number one for

2126
01:48:05,000 --> 01:48:06,440
Speaker 2: five weeks.

2127
01:48:07,120 --> 01:48:08,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I mean, these days it's all about

2128
01:48:08,840 --> 01:48:11,360
Speaker 1: what you make the opening weekend. But back in the

2129
01:48:11,400 --> 01:48:14,800
Speaker 1: early nineties, you could afford to have a slow burn basically,

2130
01:48:14,920 --> 01:48:17,040
Speaker 1: and so that was really what this movie was. It

2131
01:48:17,080 --> 01:48:19,080
Speaker 1: was more of a word of mouth movie than anything else.

2132
01:48:19,640 --> 01:48:23,439
Speaker 1: I love that it was released on Valentine's Day. Sounds

2133
01:48:23,439 --> 01:48:26,519
Speaker 1: of the Lamps pleased on Valentine's Day for Jonathan Demi

2134
01:48:26,920 --> 01:48:29,519
Speaker 1: that was semi intentional because he thought it was quote

2135
01:48:29,600 --> 01:48:33,320
Speaker 1: a good date movie, something about Clarice and doctor Electra

2136
01:48:33,400 --> 01:48:36,560
Speaker 1: said Valentine's Day to me, which brings me to a

2137
01:48:36,600 --> 01:48:38,800
Speaker 1: deeper point. I kind of touched on this earlier. The

2138
01:48:38,840 --> 01:48:42,479
Speaker 1: sexual chemistry between Lecter and Clarice maybe the weirdest in

2139
01:48:42,520 --> 01:48:45,160
Speaker 1: cinema history, but it is. It is off the charts

2140
01:48:45,320 --> 01:48:47,160
Speaker 1: in this movie, right am. I am I alone at

2141
01:48:47,200 --> 01:48:50,080
Speaker 1: thinking that you won't give me the satisfaction.

2142
01:48:50,200 --> 01:48:52,599
Speaker 2: Okay, I know it is. It's a different I mean,

2143
01:48:52,600 --> 01:48:56,559
Speaker 2: I just rewatched this. It's it's they have chemistry. I

2144
01:48:56,640 --> 01:49:01,760
Speaker 2: don't think it's romantic though, yes, love there, Okay, it's

2145
01:49:01,800 --> 01:49:04,120
Speaker 2: definitely Well, it's funny that Hannibal ends up the book.

2146
01:49:04,160 --> 01:49:07,439
Speaker 2: In Hannibal, Thomas Harris writes them as together, like by

2147
01:49:07,479 --> 01:49:09,320
Speaker 2: the end of it, they end up his lovers, which

2148
01:49:09,360 --> 01:49:10,720
Speaker 2: is maybe my head.

2149
01:49:11,040 --> 01:49:15,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess they're only in four scenes together in

2150
01:49:15,080 --> 01:49:18,439
Speaker 1: the movie, which is wild to think about, considering that's

2151
01:49:18,439 --> 01:49:22,639
Speaker 1: all the stuff that anyone remembers. Yeah, exactly. Anthony Hopkins

2152
01:49:22,720 --> 01:49:24,760
Speaker 1: has said, I think Hannibal loves her in a way.

2153
01:49:24,840 --> 01:49:27,639
Speaker 1: He admires her courage. There's this young woman who doesn't

2154
01:49:27,680 --> 01:49:29,679
Speaker 1: have the physical strength of a man, and she comes

2155
01:49:29,760 --> 01:49:32,400
Speaker 1: and visits a monster, and I think he's amused by it.

2156
01:49:32,680 --> 01:49:34,479
Speaker 1: She's got courage, She's come to visit me.

2157
01:49:35,000 --> 01:49:35,439
Speaker 2: Wow.

2158
01:49:35,680 --> 01:49:39,040
Speaker 1: I think he responds to it. Jodie Foster said something similar.

2159
01:49:39,040 --> 01:49:41,679
Speaker 1: She said, there's a love between us, there's a human connection.

2160
01:49:42,680 --> 01:49:45,920
Speaker 1: There's something like seductive about Hannibal. Letg he's very arm

2161
01:49:46,040 --> 01:49:48,640
Speaker 1: like rooting for him even when he's like beating up

2162
01:49:48,640 --> 01:49:49,240
Speaker 1: the cops.

2163
01:49:49,560 --> 01:49:51,439
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, bad example.

2164
01:49:52,080 --> 01:49:54,280
Speaker 1: But it's like Dexter. It's like the show Dexter.

2165
01:49:54,479 --> 01:49:58,760
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, yeah yeah. A strong critical consensus, except from

2166
01:49:58,840 --> 01:50:02,439
Speaker 2: Gene Siskell, who pays that and word of mouth helped

2167
01:50:02,439 --> 01:50:04,240
Speaker 2: the film become a sleeper hip, grossing a total of

2168
01:50:04,240 --> 01:50:07,559
Speaker 2: two hundred and seventy five dollars, crossing its total two

2169
01:50:07,640 --> 01:50:11,160
Speaker 2: hundred and seventy five million dollars worldwide. Though the films

2170
01:50:11,320 --> 01:50:14,200
Speaker 2: swept the Guild and Critics Awards, the consensus was that

2171
01:50:14,320 --> 01:50:17,200
Speaker 2: opening nearly a year before the next Oscars was going

2172
01:50:17,240 --> 01:50:20,720
Speaker 2: to scotch its chances. And interestingly, the Golden Globes, which

2173
01:50:20,760 --> 01:50:24,040
Speaker 2: are usually considered the predictor, the sort of smart betting

2174
01:50:24,080 --> 01:50:27,200
Speaker 2: predictor of the Oscars, did not have silence in them

2175
01:50:27,280 --> 01:50:30,960
Speaker 2: very much at all. Jodi Foster won Best Actress in

2176
01:50:31,000 --> 01:50:33,559
Speaker 2: a Drama, but then the other top line awards were

2177
01:50:33,560 --> 01:50:37,320
Speaker 2: split between this this movie Bugsy that you mentioned earlier.

2178
01:50:37,640 --> 01:50:39,679
Speaker 2: I don't know what this movie is at all. It's

2179
01:50:39,720 --> 01:50:43,040
Speaker 2: been memory Hold for me. JFK, the Prince of Tides

2180
01:50:43,040 --> 01:50:45,439
Speaker 2: and Felm and Luis, which are all very predictable. But

2181
01:50:45,840 --> 01:50:47,880
Speaker 2: one thing that Orion did have in its pocket was

2182
01:50:47,920 --> 01:50:51,320
Speaker 2: Ted Tally told Deadline our film had a videotape, and

2183
01:50:51,360 --> 01:50:53,600
Speaker 2: Orion had just enough money scratched together to send them

2184
01:50:53,640 --> 01:50:56,000
Speaker 2: out to voters, the Academy voters. That was still a

2185
01:50:56,040 --> 01:50:58,840
Speaker 2: new idea, and no movie had opened far enough in

2186
01:50:58,880 --> 01:51:02,320
Speaker 2: advance of the Auscar to be on videotape. And he

2187
01:51:02,439 --> 01:51:04,719
Speaker 2: says he talked about like this thing where it created

2188
01:51:04,760 --> 01:51:07,160
Speaker 2: this effect where people were like, oh, silence slams. I

2189
01:51:07,200 --> 01:51:10,040
Speaker 2: remember seeing that movie last year, but then they got

2190
01:51:10,040 --> 01:51:12,000
Speaker 2: this videotape of and they were like, oh, I'll watch

2191
01:51:12,080 --> 01:51:14,760
Speaker 2: this again and be reminded that it was genius. He said,

2192
01:51:14,800 --> 01:51:17,360
Speaker 2: it saved our lives. Oriyan had just enough money left

2193
01:51:17,360 --> 01:51:19,479
Speaker 2: to do this. That was the extent of it. They

2194
01:51:19,479 --> 01:51:21,760
Speaker 2: didn't reopen the film in New York or LA. They

2195
01:51:21,800 --> 01:51:24,320
Speaker 2: didn't run extensive ads in the trades. That was it.

2196
01:51:24,520 --> 01:51:28,200
Speaker 2: They sent out a tape. Demi told Deadline the nominations

2197
01:51:28,200 --> 01:51:31,160
Speaker 2: took everybody by great surprise. We thought these bigger pictures

2198
01:51:31,200 --> 01:51:33,120
Speaker 2: would win the prizes. And the only thing I can

2199
01:51:33,160 --> 01:51:35,320
Speaker 2: remember us ever really talking about was the impulse to

2200
01:51:35,320 --> 01:51:37,960
Speaker 2: put Anthony Hopkins in the Best Supporting category because a

2201
01:51:38,040 --> 01:51:40,800
Speaker 2: screen time was so relatively short. Then in the night

2202
01:51:40,800 --> 01:51:43,519
Speaker 2: of the Oscars, he said, we started winning. I was

2203
01:51:43,560 --> 01:51:47,479
Speaker 2: just completely freaked out. Ultimately, Silence became the third and

2204
01:51:47,640 --> 01:51:51,200
Speaker 2: currently most recent film to win the top five major

2205
01:51:51,240 --> 01:51:55,720
Speaker 2: categories Best Picture, Best Director, Best Actor, Best Actress, and

2206
01:51:55,760 --> 01:51:58,960
Speaker 2: Best Adapted Screenplay, and it's still the only horror film

2207
01:51:58,960 --> 01:52:02,800
Speaker 2: to win Best Picture Van bar Trivia. The other two

2208
01:52:02,880 --> 01:52:05,519
Speaker 2: films to have swept the top five are nineteen thirty

2209
01:52:05,560 --> 01:52:08,639
Speaker 2: four's It Happened One Night in nineteen seventy five's One

2210
01:52:08,680 --> 01:52:09,960
Speaker 2: Flew Over the Cuckoo's.

2211
01:52:09,600 --> 01:52:12,000
Speaker 1: Nest a reporter on the end of the Oscars asked

2212
01:52:12,000 --> 01:52:14,439
Speaker 1: that Anthony Hopkins what he thought Hannibal Elector would have

2213
01:52:14,520 --> 01:52:17,519
Speaker 1: done had he not won the Oscar, and without a beat,

2214
01:52:17,600 --> 01:52:22,080
Speaker 1: Anthony Hopkins breaks into the Hannibal Electric Boys without missing

2215
01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:24,640
Speaker 1: a beat. It's incredible. Well, if I hadn't received it,

2216
01:52:24,680 --> 01:52:25,719
Speaker 1: you would all be in trouble.

2217
01:52:27,560 --> 01:52:30,000
Speaker 2: You just sort of you're just sort of elfin, like

2218
01:52:30,680 --> 01:52:33,479
Speaker 2: a little guy a little too high, like the Great Kazoo.

2219
01:52:37,040 --> 01:52:41,840
Speaker 2: There is all right, we've had enough laughs. There is

2220
01:52:41,880 --> 01:52:46,360
Speaker 2: one asterisk on Silence's legacy, and that is its handling of,

2221
01:52:47,200 --> 01:52:49,800
Speaker 2: let's just say, the portrayal of what is perceived as

2222
01:52:49,880 --> 01:52:53,960
Speaker 2: transgenderism in the movie. The most common defense of the

2223
01:52:54,000 --> 01:52:56,680
Speaker 2: book and the film is that Harris and Demian, all

2224
01:52:56,720 --> 01:52:58,920
Speaker 2: of them went out of their way to highlight the

2225
01:52:58,960 --> 01:53:04,040
Speaker 2: fact that the character of Buffalo Bill is not a transperson.

2226
01:53:04,200 --> 01:53:06,920
Speaker 2: They say it in the book, he's not transgender, he

2227
01:53:07,080 --> 01:53:10,479
Speaker 2: just thinks he is. And that's a verbatim line in

2228
01:53:10,520 --> 01:53:12,479
Speaker 2: the movie, and Demi wanted to keep that in there.

2229
01:53:12,920 --> 01:53:16,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jonathan Demi says, basically, paraphrase is something that Hannibal

2230
01:53:16,600 --> 01:53:19,680
Speaker 1: Lecter says in the movie. Somebody that hates themselves so

2231
01:53:19,800 --> 01:53:22,240
Speaker 1: much that they will do anything to turn themselves into

2232
01:53:22,280 --> 01:53:26,600
Speaker 1: someone who has no resemblance to themselves. So that is

2233
01:53:26,640 --> 01:53:28,959
Speaker 1: a psychological assessment of Buffalo Bill.

2234
01:53:29,120 --> 01:53:31,360
Speaker 2: And Ted Levine, for his part, said he never played

2235
01:53:31,360 --> 01:53:33,439
Speaker 2: the characters gay. He said that he and Demi had

2236
01:53:33,439 --> 01:53:36,800
Speaker 2: these conversations about the character during which Demi basically said,

2237
01:53:36,800 --> 01:53:39,160
Speaker 2: I don't want to I'm worried about this character coming

2238
01:53:39,160 --> 01:53:42,040
Speaker 2: off this way, and Levine said the stance I took

2239
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:46,320
Speaker 2: was one of a more acutely homophobic heterosexual man doing

2240
01:53:46,320 --> 01:53:47,240
Speaker 2: that mocking thing.

2241
01:53:47,439 --> 01:53:49,920
Speaker 1: And Ted Levine also added that he believed the character

2242
01:53:50,000 --> 01:53:52,519
Speaker 1: quote one of the power that he imagined the woman

2243
01:53:52,560 --> 01:53:53,280
Speaker 1: would possess.

2244
01:53:53,920 --> 01:53:57,479
Speaker 2: But coming on the heels of the AIDS epidemic, the

2245
01:53:57,520 --> 01:54:00,840
Speaker 2: trans community was understandably not thrilled to have one of

2246
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:03,599
Speaker 2: the biggest movies of the year star a killer playing

2247
01:54:03,640 --> 01:54:08,160
Speaker 2: up on public misconceptions of drag and transgenderism. And it

2248
01:54:08,200 --> 01:54:13,120
Speaker 2: was building on a pretty bad climate of LGBTQ portrayal

2249
01:54:13,160 --> 01:54:16,679
Speaker 2: in Hollywood. You had the gay criminal conspirators in JFK.

2250
01:54:17,720 --> 01:54:21,200
Speaker 2: Sharon Stone's murderer and basic instinct is bisexual, and then

2251
01:54:21,280 --> 01:54:25,040
Speaker 2: there's dressed to Kill, which is a DePalma film in

2252
01:54:25,080 --> 01:54:28,839
Speaker 2: which I think It's Michael Caine plays a quote unquote

2253
01:54:28,880 --> 01:54:34,200
Speaker 2: transgender murderer, and Silence was protested by activist groups across

2254
01:54:34,200 --> 01:54:37,480
Speaker 2: the country at theaters. Act Up and Queer Nation showed

2255
01:54:37,520 --> 01:54:39,560
Speaker 2: up at the nineteen ninety two Oscars for a protest

2256
01:54:39,640 --> 01:54:43,200
Speaker 2: which resulted in ten arrests. Mark Dice has a book

2257
01:54:43,240 --> 01:54:46,959
Speaker 2: called Hollywood Propaganda, How TV's movie and music shape our cultures,

2258
01:54:47,360 --> 01:54:50,280
Speaker 2: and he quotes a GLAD leader who criticized Silence of

2259
01:54:50,280 --> 01:54:52,800
Speaker 2: the Lamb, saying the killer in this movie is a walking,

2260
01:54:52,880 --> 01:54:56,839
Speaker 2: talking gay stereotype. He has a poodle name Precious, he sows,

2261
01:54:57,000 --> 01:54:59,879
Speaker 2: he wears a nipple ring, he has an affected feminine voice,

2262
01:55:00,120 --> 01:55:04,600
Speaker 2: and he cross dresses. He completely promotes homophobia. Orion Pictures,

2263
01:55:04,600 --> 01:55:07,360
Speaker 2: who produced and distributed the film, tried their best to

2264
01:55:07,360 --> 01:55:10,120
Speaker 2: calm things down by loaning out prints of the film

2265
01:55:10,200 --> 01:55:16,200
Speaker 2: for AIDS fundraisers, which feels like a miss guys and

2266
01:55:16,600 --> 01:55:20,000
Speaker 2: most troublingly, Silence was released into a period of a

2267
01:55:20,120 --> 01:55:23,480
Speaker 2: nationwide spike in anti gay violence. There was a study

2268
01:55:23,840 --> 01:55:26,480
Speaker 2: issued by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy

2269
01:55:26,520 --> 01:55:29,960
Speaker 2: Institute released in March nineteen ninety one reported that incidents

2270
01:55:29,960 --> 01:55:32,400
Speaker 2: of violence against gay men and lesbians in nineteen ninety

2271
01:55:32,440 --> 01:55:35,080
Speaker 2: had risen by an average of forty two percent in

2272
01:55:35,160 --> 01:55:39,440
Speaker 2: New York, Boston, Chicago, Minneapolis, Saint Paul, San Francisco, and

2273
01:55:39,520 --> 01:55:44,360
Speaker 2: Los Angeles. New York's crimes jumped sixty five percent. Wow,

2274
01:55:44,480 --> 01:55:47,720
Speaker 2: and Demi was initially a little more combative towards the criticism.

2275
01:55:48,280 --> 01:55:50,320
Speaker 2: He told The New York Times in nineteen ninety three,

2276
01:55:50,520 --> 01:55:53,640
Speaker 2: I got all this unfounded abuse on silence of the lambs.

2277
01:55:54,000 --> 01:55:56,920
Speaker 2: Bill wasn't a gay character. He was a tormented man

2278
01:55:56,960 --> 01:55:59,640
Speaker 2: who hated himself and wished he was a woman, because

2279
01:55:59,720 --> 01:56:02,000
Speaker 2: that have made him as far away from himself as

2280
01:56:02,000 --> 01:56:04,760
Speaker 2: he possibly could be. But he did seem to evolve

2281
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:07,040
Speaker 2: his views on this. He told The Daily Beast in

2282
01:56:07,080 --> 01:56:09,800
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, a few years before he died, Jame Gum

2283
01:56:09,880 --> 01:56:12,920
Speaker 2: isn't gay. And this is my directorial failing and making

2284
01:56:12,960 --> 01:56:15,280
Speaker 2: solemn to the lambs that I didn't find ways to

2285
01:56:15,320 --> 01:56:18,840
Speaker 2: emphasize the fact Gum wasn't gay. Jan Botos, who is

2286
01:56:18,880 --> 01:56:21,560
Speaker 2: one of the inspirations for Philadelphia, said to me, you

2287
01:56:21,600 --> 01:56:23,240
Speaker 2: can't imagine what it's like to be a twelve year

2288
01:56:23,240 --> 01:56:25,000
Speaker 2: old gay kid, and you go to the movies all

2289
01:56:25,000 --> 01:56:27,160
Speaker 2: the time, and whenever you see a gay character, they're

2290
01:56:27,200 --> 01:56:30,600
Speaker 2: either a ridiculous comic relief caricature or a demented killer.

2291
01:56:31,080 --> 01:56:33,160
Speaker 2: It's very hard growing up gay and being exposed to

2292
01:56:33,160 --> 01:56:35,880
Speaker 2: all these stereotypes. That registered with me in a big way.

2293
01:56:36,080 --> 01:56:38,160
Speaker 1: And there was also an incident where representatives of an

2294
01:56:38,280 --> 01:56:42,520
Speaker 1: LGBTQ organization passed out leaflet set of screening where silence

2295
01:56:42,600 --> 01:56:46,160
Speaker 1: was taking place, and Jonathan Deby was actually there and

2296
01:56:46,200 --> 01:56:48,120
Speaker 1: instead of ignore it, he got up to the podium

2297
01:56:48,120 --> 01:56:51,000
Speaker 1: and urged the crowd to read these leaflets. So he

2298
01:56:51,320 --> 01:56:54,120
Speaker 1: was very open to obviously hearing what these people had

2299
01:56:54,120 --> 01:56:56,880
Speaker 1: to say and really regretted, like you said, his directorial

2300
01:56:56,920 --> 01:56:58,720
Speaker 1: failing for not being more clear about this.

2301
01:56:59,360 --> 01:57:00,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, one thing that I thought of when I was

2302
01:57:01,480 --> 01:57:03,640
Speaker 2: kind of thinking about how to fill this section was,

2303
01:57:04,800 --> 01:57:08,000
Speaker 2: you know, art can't answer for itself, but artists can,

2304
01:57:09,080 --> 01:57:11,760
Speaker 2: and I think that that's the responsibility that people have.

2305
01:57:11,800 --> 01:57:15,720
Speaker 2: So I'm happy that Demi was still talking about this

2306
01:57:15,800 --> 01:57:18,440
Speaker 2: and apologizing for it as recently as a couple of

2307
01:57:18,520 --> 01:57:21,200
Speaker 2: years before he died. Jodie Foster is also gay. She

2308
01:57:21,280 --> 01:57:23,840
Speaker 2: was closeted for a very long time, but eventually came out.

2309
01:57:24,400 --> 01:57:26,400
Speaker 2: She told Vanity Fair that in addition to the line

2310
01:57:26,400 --> 01:57:29,240
Speaker 2: about build up being trans they actually shot a scene

2311
01:57:29,240 --> 01:57:31,880
Speaker 2: with a psychiatrist that would have reinforced these themes, but

2312
01:57:31,920 --> 01:57:35,240
Speaker 2: it ended up being cut, and she said in this interview,

2313
01:57:35,400 --> 01:57:37,640
Speaker 2: I think I can say this now because Jonathan's gone.

2314
01:57:38,200 --> 01:57:40,400
Speaker 2: I feel like he was really heartbroken that he didn't

2315
01:57:40,440 --> 01:57:42,640
Speaker 2: make that clear in the film. If there's ever a

2316
01:57:42,640 --> 01:57:45,040
Speaker 2: gnawing part of him, I think he really did understand

2317
01:57:45,080 --> 01:57:47,240
Speaker 2: where the controversy came from, and he felt like he

2318
01:57:47,280 --> 01:57:49,840
Speaker 2: didn't do as good a job at making his intentions clear.

2319
01:57:50,320 --> 01:57:52,120
Speaker 2: If there was something to revise, I think he would

2320
01:57:52,120 --> 01:57:53,880
Speaker 2: have gone back and revised that, just to make it

2321
01:57:54,000 --> 01:57:57,720
Speaker 2: very clear. Demi's next film was, in fact, The Aid's

2322
01:57:57,800 --> 01:58:00,880
Speaker 2: Parable Philadelphia, just one of the first Hollywood productions to

2323
01:58:00,920 --> 01:58:04,280
Speaker 2: even mention aids, and while it's been claimed that he

2324
01:58:04,360 --> 01:58:07,720
Speaker 2: was inspired to make that film by the backlash to Silence,

2325
01:58:07,760 --> 01:58:12,440
Speaker 2: that isn't strictly true. His then producer, Edward Saxon, who

2326
01:58:12,480 --> 01:58:15,920
Speaker 2: funnily enough provided the mold for the head that they

2327
01:58:15,960 --> 01:58:20,080
Speaker 2: find in the car, that is another Jonathan Demi cameo

2328
01:58:20,200 --> 01:58:24,040
Speaker 2: from that film. Is his producer cameos as a severed head. Anyway,

2329
01:58:24,040 --> 01:58:25,440
Speaker 2: that guy said at the time, we had wanted to

2330
01:58:25,440 --> 01:58:27,400
Speaker 2: make a movie in which AIDS was a major character

2331
01:58:27,440 --> 01:58:31,280
Speaker 2: before we ever filmed Silence of the Lambs. With Philadelphia,

2332
01:58:31,280 --> 01:58:33,640
Speaker 2: Demi was more prepared for the backlash this time around,

2333
01:58:33,720 --> 01:58:36,280
Speaker 2: he said, I expected it. I actually hoped for it.

2334
01:58:36,280 --> 01:58:39,000
Speaker 2: It's the job of militants to demand more of anything.

2335
01:58:39,440 --> 01:58:41,760
Speaker 2: If these people were satisfied, change would be hard to

2336
01:58:41,800 --> 01:58:44,640
Speaker 2: get through. Every one of them is right. There could

2337
01:58:44,680 --> 01:58:46,440
Speaker 2: have been more of this or more of that. But

2338
01:58:46,560 --> 01:58:50,200
Speaker 2: now maybe another film will take it further. That statement

2339
01:58:50,200 --> 01:58:53,840
Speaker 2: did not mollify the firebrand playwright and Act Up founder

2340
01:58:53,920 --> 01:58:56,760
Speaker 2: Larry Kramer, who wrote in it LA Times op ed

2341
01:58:56,880 --> 01:58:59,960
Speaker 2: on Philadelphia, I bring up the painful reminder that Demi

2342
01:59:00,120 --> 01:59:02,480
Speaker 2: also directed The Silence of the Lambs, which many gays

2343
01:59:02,520 --> 01:59:06,000
Speaker 2: consider one of the most virulently and insidiously homophobic films

2344
01:59:06,040 --> 01:59:08,880
Speaker 2: ever made. Is Philadelphia some sort of attempt on his

2345
01:59:09,000 --> 01:59:11,880
Speaker 2: part offer an apology after these two films. I wish

2346
01:59:11,920 --> 01:59:15,000
Speaker 2: he'd just go away and leave us alone. Plenty of

2347
01:59:15,040 --> 01:59:17,760
Speaker 2: scholars and activists have written about this side of Silence's legacy,

2348
01:59:17,800 --> 01:59:20,520
Speaker 2: but one of my favorites is the transcritic Emily Saint James.

2349
01:59:20,640 --> 01:59:23,360
Speaker 2: She tweeted in twenty twenty one, knowing the intent of

2350
01:59:23,400 --> 01:59:27,000
Speaker 2: a work doesn't mean because the intent is less important

2351
01:59:27,000 --> 01:59:30,000
Speaker 2: than the impact. And when people saw Silence of the Lambs,

2352
01:59:30,000 --> 01:59:33,080
Speaker 2: they didn't hear Buffalo Bill isn't trans. They saw a

2353
01:59:33,080 --> 01:59:36,720
Speaker 2: weirdo serial killer dancing around women's clothes. It is one

2354
01:59:36,720 --> 01:59:42,400
Speaker 2: of the most influential movies ever made. Its influence includes transphobia. Yeah,

2355
01:59:42,400 --> 01:59:44,480
Speaker 2: so I think about that, and like I said, art

2356
01:59:44,720 --> 01:59:48,240
Speaker 2: can't answer for itself, but artists can, and you know,

2357
01:59:48,520 --> 01:59:50,880
Speaker 2: looking at things within the lens of their time, or

2358
01:59:51,920 --> 01:59:53,320
Speaker 2: you know, saying it was just a product of its

2359
01:59:53,320 --> 01:59:56,000
Speaker 2: time or whatever. I've never really enjoyed that. I think

2360
01:59:56,400 --> 01:59:59,280
Speaker 2: criticism of art strengthens it. And that's just something to

2361
01:59:59,320 --> 02:00:01,720
Speaker 2: consider for this film is, as we have said many

2362
02:00:01,720 --> 02:00:08,200
Speaker 2: times before, in all other ways perfect no segue. Silence

2363
02:00:08,680 --> 02:00:11,560
Speaker 2: actually came out at the tail end of the peak

2364
02:00:11,760 --> 02:00:14,760
Speaker 2: of what is recognized as peak serial killer in America,

2365
02:00:15,000 --> 02:00:19,800
Speaker 2: which they have actually identified, which is horrifying. That is

2366
02:00:20,200 --> 02:00:23,960
Speaker 2: roughly nineteen seventy to nineteen ninety. Ted Bundy had been

2367
02:00:24,000 --> 02:00:27,720
Speaker 2: executed in nineteen eighty nine, and Jeffrey Dahmer was arrested

2368
02:00:27,720 --> 02:00:30,960
Speaker 2: in July nineteen eighty one. I don't think they found

2369
02:00:31,080 --> 02:00:35,520
Speaker 2: BTK until the mid nineties, but I think he'd stopped

2370
02:00:35,600 --> 02:00:38,600
Speaker 2: killing before then. Anyway. Lecter, of course, cast the film's

2371
02:00:38,600 --> 02:00:42,720
Speaker 2: longest shadow. Hopkins' portrayal ushered in a new era of

2372
02:00:42,920 --> 02:00:47,280
Speaker 2: cinematic stereotypes, where killers were erudite and sophisticated instead of

2373
02:00:47,440 --> 02:00:52,560
Speaker 2: frothing lunatics or neurotic lone wolf weirdos. Criminologist and author

2374
02:00:52,640 --> 02:00:55,000
Speaker 2: Scott Bond told Vanity Fair in twenty twenty one that

2375
02:00:55,080 --> 02:00:58,200
Speaker 2: for ten years while he was teaching criminology and criminal

2376
02:00:58,320 --> 02:01:01,040
Speaker 2: justice classes, about half his students told him they wanted

2377
02:01:01,040 --> 02:01:03,360
Speaker 2: to be Clarice Starling. So now we have to get

2378
02:01:03,360 --> 02:01:08,160
Speaker 2: into Dino de Laurentis being a money grubbing cartoon Italian.

2379
02:01:10,320 --> 02:01:13,520
Speaker 2: This guy's so ridiculous. He owned the rights to Harris's characters,

2380
02:01:13,520 --> 02:01:16,160
Speaker 2: but you know he, as we mentioned earlier, he let

2381
02:01:16,160 --> 02:01:19,520
Speaker 2: Orion make Silence for free. So even before Silence had

2382
02:01:19,520 --> 02:01:21,920
Speaker 2: come out, Tom Pollack, who's a chairman at Universal who

2383
02:01:21,920 --> 02:01:25,360
Speaker 2: had worked with Dino DeLaurentis, was lobbying him to if

2384
02:01:25,360 --> 02:01:27,360
Speaker 2: you make any sequel to this movie, because he knew

2385
02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:29,240
Speaker 2: he in the rights, you have to make it at Universal,

2386
02:01:29,720 --> 02:01:32,360
Speaker 2: and Delarentis felt that Tom Pollack was using other films

2387
02:01:32,360 --> 02:01:34,960
Speaker 2: that they were working on as leverage for this, and

2388
02:01:35,000 --> 02:01:36,720
Speaker 2: this whole thing went to court. There was a twenty

2389
02:01:36,720 --> 02:01:39,760
Speaker 2: five million dollar lawsuit that ended up happening, But that

2390
02:01:39,880 --> 02:01:43,920
Speaker 2: was all extremely premature because Thomas Harris takes forever to write.

2391
02:01:44,960 --> 02:01:48,280
Speaker 2: Each year, Delarentis would fly down to Miami with his

2392
02:01:48,400 --> 02:01:51,840
Speaker 2: personal chef and have dinner with Harris and ask him,

2393
02:01:52,000 --> 02:01:56,040
Speaker 2: how's the follow up coming? Where's my new Hannibal book?

2394
02:01:58,080 --> 02:02:00,440
Speaker 1: He's not still alive, is he know?

2395
02:02:01,760 --> 02:02:04,200
Speaker 2: Hannibal picks up the book. Hannibal picks up ten years

2396
02:02:04,200 --> 02:02:06,360
Speaker 2: after Silence left off, with Lecter on the loose in

2397
02:02:06,400 --> 02:02:10,800
Speaker 2: Italy and Starling disgraced after raid gone bad. One of

2398
02:02:11,280 --> 02:02:16,920
Speaker 2: Lecter's earliest victims, a disfigured cattle magnate named Mason Verger,

2399
02:02:17,280 --> 02:02:19,200
Speaker 2: plans to use her to bring Lecter out of hiding,

2400
02:02:19,640 --> 02:02:21,840
Speaker 2: at which point he will kidnap him and feed him

2401
02:02:21,840 --> 02:02:25,800
Speaker 2: alive to specially bred pigs. The novels end in which

2402
02:02:25,840 --> 02:02:28,560
Speaker 2: he drugged up Clarice. Do you remember how this book ends.

2403
02:02:28,600 --> 02:02:33,480
Speaker 2: It is truly insane. Hannibal has bars. Well, yeah, but

2404
02:02:33,560 --> 02:02:38,040
Speaker 2: it's weirder than that. Hannibal dug up Clarice's dad's bones

2405
02:02:38,920 --> 02:02:43,560
Speaker 2: and put her on like a crazy psychotropic cocktail, and

2406
02:02:43,600 --> 02:02:46,600
Speaker 2: that has this whole elaborate, grand genial dinner scene where

2407
02:02:46,600 --> 02:02:49,840
Speaker 2: he cooks and eats. He lobottomizes a guy while he's

2408
02:02:49,840 --> 02:02:53,839
Speaker 2: still alive her FBI rival or Justice Department, I forget,

2409
02:02:54,840 --> 02:02:58,280
Speaker 2: And it's in the Israelioda in the movie. He takes

2410
02:02:58,280 --> 02:03:00,680
Speaker 2: off the top half of this dude's head, takes out

2411
02:03:00,680 --> 02:03:03,160
Speaker 2: a portion of his brain, cooks it at dinner and

2412
02:03:03,240 --> 02:03:05,120
Speaker 2: Clarice eats it, and then he shows her the bones

2413
02:03:05,160 --> 02:03:08,600
Speaker 2: her dad, and then they are in love and they

2414
02:03:08,640 --> 02:03:12,000
Speaker 2: travel the world together. And literally how that book ends,

2415
02:03:12,040 --> 02:03:13,320
Speaker 2: it's very bizarre.

2416
02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:17,440
Speaker 1: It's like that South Park episode with Radiohead, Yes, Sama

2417
02:03:17,440 --> 02:03:19,560
Speaker 1: would die where he feeds him his parents. Yes, Cartman

2418
02:03:19,600 --> 02:03:20,400
Speaker 1: feeds him his parents.

2419
02:03:20,480 --> 02:03:25,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, your tears are just so sweet. Anyway, that was

2420
02:03:26,160 --> 02:03:29,960
Speaker 2: enough for Demi to pass. In the twenty ten biography

2421
02:03:30,040 --> 02:03:33,520
Speaker 2: Channel History Inside story The Silence of the Lambs, Demi

2422
02:03:33,560 --> 02:03:37,480
Speaker 2: said Tom Harris as unpredictable as ever, took Clarice and

2423
02:03:37,560 --> 02:03:40,800
Speaker 2: Doctor Lector's relationship in a direction that just didn't compute

2424
02:03:40,800 --> 02:03:43,080
Speaker 2: for me. I thought, I can't do this.

2425
02:03:43,720 --> 02:03:47,000
Speaker 1: And then he was trying to sabotage these people because

2426
02:03:47,040 --> 02:03:49,560
Speaker 1: he's already talking about like, yeah, I don't really I mean,

2427
02:03:49,600 --> 02:03:51,840
Speaker 1: I guess financially that would only be hurting himself. But

2428
02:03:51,880 --> 02:03:54,520
Speaker 1: it seems like Thomas Harris isn't really thrilled about his

2429
02:03:54,680 --> 02:03:56,600
Speaker 1: movie adaptations, so he's like, all right, I'm gonna make

2430
02:03:56,680 --> 02:03:59,040
Speaker 1: this thing that they can't make it into a movie.

2431
02:03:59,200 --> 02:04:02,360
Speaker 2: My sense is that he wanted to do Hannibal. I don't.

2432
02:04:02,480 --> 02:04:04,280
Speaker 2: He didn't. We'll get to the one that he didn't

2433
02:04:04,320 --> 02:04:09,040
Speaker 2: want to do. De Larentis told Premier magazine of Demi's decision.

2434
02:04:09,800 --> 02:04:13,440
Speaker 2: When the pope dies, we create a new pope. Good

2435
02:04:13,520 --> 02:04:18,640
Speaker 2: luck to Jonathan Demi. Goodbye. What a bastard. They also

2436
02:04:18,680 --> 02:04:20,680
Speaker 2: don't create a new pope. You find a new pope.

2437
02:04:20,680 --> 02:04:26,160
Speaker 2: What do you think popes are grown in labs? Italian weirdo. Ultimately,

2438
02:04:26,200 --> 02:04:29,480
Speaker 2: I am Italian, by the way, so I can sail this. Ultimately,

2439
02:04:29,520 --> 02:04:32,320
Speaker 2: they went with Ridley Scott, who initially thought that they

2440
02:04:32,320 --> 02:04:35,920
Speaker 2: were pitching him a biopic of the sacking of Carthage.

2441
02:04:36,480 --> 02:04:37,920
Speaker 2: He said, I don't want to do a film about

2442
02:04:37,920 --> 02:04:42,200
Speaker 2: bloody elephants, and they said, no, it's about Hannibal Lecter,

2443
02:04:42,440 --> 02:04:49,640
Speaker 2: not Hannibal, the elephant guy from Antiquity. Ted Tally also declined.

2444
02:04:50,120 --> 02:04:53,080
Speaker 2: David Mammittt supposedly did a draft of this, which is wild.

2445
02:04:54,080 --> 02:04:57,440
Speaker 2: Julianne Moore replaced Jody Foster. Foster had told Larry King

2446
02:04:57,520 --> 02:04:59,400
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety seven that she would definitely be a

2447
02:04:59,400 --> 02:05:02,360
Speaker 2: part of a sequ adding the same year to Entertainment

2448
02:05:02,360 --> 02:05:05,440
Speaker 2: Weekly that Anthony Hopkins also talks about it. Everyone wants

2449
02:05:05,440 --> 02:05:07,160
Speaker 2: to do it. Every time I see Anthony, it's like,

2450
02:05:07,280 --> 02:05:09,920
Speaker 2: when is it going to happen? But years later, Foster

2451
02:05:10,000 --> 02:05:12,960
Speaker 2: told Total Film, the official reason I didn't do Hannibal

2452
02:05:13,040 --> 02:05:15,440
Speaker 2: is that I was doing another movie, Flora Plum, so

2453
02:05:15,520 --> 02:05:17,320
Speaker 2: I could say in a nice, dignified way that I

2454
02:05:17,320 --> 02:05:20,440
Speaker 2: wasn't available when that movie Hannibal was being shot. But

2455
02:05:20,520 --> 02:05:23,080
Speaker 2: Clarice meant so much to Jonathan and I. She really did,

2456
02:05:23,400 --> 02:05:25,120
Speaker 2: And I know it sounds kind of strange to say,

2457
02:05:25,160 --> 02:05:26,680
Speaker 2: but there was no way that either of us could

2458
02:05:26,680 --> 02:05:29,720
Speaker 2: really trample on her as if she saw Hannibal, she said,

2459
02:05:29,880 --> 02:05:34,000
Speaker 2: I did. I won't comment. Deela Renis's version of this,

2460
02:05:34,040 --> 02:05:36,120
Speaker 2: he told Premiere, was that Foster asked for twenty million

2461
02:05:36,160 --> 02:05:38,800
Speaker 2: up front and fifteen percent of the gross, and he

2462
02:05:38,920 --> 02:05:40,920
Speaker 2: which is kind of. Fifteen percent might be a lot,

2463
02:05:40,920 --> 02:05:43,440
Speaker 2: but twenty million up front is pretty standard. You know,

2464
02:05:44,400 --> 02:05:48,000
Speaker 2: freaking Julie Roberts was getting twenty mil a pick, and.

2465
02:05:47,720 --> 02:05:49,400
Speaker 1: Maybe she was high ball on him just so that

2466
02:05:49,720 --> 02:05:51,040
Speaker 1: he would have to be the one to say no.

2467
02:05:51,400 --> 02:05:54,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, but no, he hung up on her. I believe

2468
02:05:55,640 --> 02:05:59,480
Speaker 2: Hopkins made eleven millions for coming back for Hannibal. He

2469
02:05:59,560 --> 02:06:01,880
Speaker 2: told prom I never thought a sequel would come up,

2470
02:06:02,040 --> 02:06:04,520
Speaker 2: and then it did, and I thought, okay, fine, let's

2471
02:06:04,560 --> 02:06:06,640
Speaker 2: see what it's like. I tend to be low key

2472
02:06:06,640 --> 02:06:09,240
Speaker 2: about things like that. I liked the script. I didn't

2473
02:06:09,240 --> 02:06:11,520
Speaker 2: know what the problem was. I said, yes, it was

2474
02:06:11,520 --> 02:06:13,040
Speaker 2: as simple and as a matter of fact as that,

2475
02:06:13,360 --> 02:06:16,080
Speaker 2: it's a living. It's just work. Then he would later

2476
02:06:16,120 --> 02:06:18,800
Speaker 2: tell Vanity Fair, I saw the poster for Hannibal somewhere

2477
02:06:18,800 --> 02:06:20,800
Speaker 2: and I thought, why did I do that? And then

2478
02:06:20,800 --> 02:06:24,520
Speaker 2: I remembered it paid my mother's hospital bills. Oh yeah.

2479
02:06:25,440 --> 02:06:27,840
Speaker 2: Thomas Harris once again gave the director permission to change

2480
02:06:27,840 --> 02:06:30,720
Speaker 2: the ending, which instead saw Hannibal chop off his own

2481
02:06:30,760 --> 02:06:35,880
Speaker 2: hand to escape Starling. Hannibal was fine. Reviews are mixed,

2482
02:06:35,880 --> 02:06:37,640
Speaker 2: but it made enough money to get Universal and gear

2483
02:06:37,680 --> 02:06:41,520
Speaker 2: to remake Red Dragon, starring Edward Norton alongside Hopkins returning

2484
02:06:41,560 --> 02:06:44,520
Speaker 2: for a third time and Ray Fines and directed by

2485
02:06:44,680 --> 02:06:48,080
Speaker 2: now disgraced garbage Shuman and Enemy of the Pod Brett Ratner.

2486
02:06:48,640 --> 02:06:52,640
Speaker 2: That movie is not good. In twenty sixteen, Hopkins said

2487
02:06:52,640 --> 02:06:55,080
Speaker 2: of the sequels, I made the mistake of doing two

2488
02:06:55,120 --> 02:06:57,840
Speaker 2: more Hannibal Electra movies, and I should have only done one.

2489
02:06:58,840 --> 02:07:02,280
Speaker 2: But Dino Dey Laura Dentis wasn't done squeezing every last

2490
02:07:02,320 --> 02:07:04,200
Speaker 2: bit of cash out of lecture with his all of

2491
02:07:04,280 --> 02:07:09,000
Speaker 2: oil stained hands. No, he essentially strong armed Thomas Harris

2492
02:07:09,040 --> 02:07:12,000
Speaker 2: into writing, at a greatly accelerated pace, a prequel book,

2493
02:07:12,120 --> 02:07:14,800
Speaker 2: Hannibal Rising, that would then be adapted into a movie.

2494
02:07:15,240 --> 02:07:17,200
Speaker 2: Harris is not commented on this, but a February two

2495
02:07:17,200 --> 02:07:19,520
Speaker 2: thousand and seven issue of Entertainment Weekly features a pretty

2496
02:07:19,600 --> 02:07:23,200
Speaker 2: damning quote from DeLaurentis. I say to Thomas, and this

2497
02:07:23,240 --> 02:07:25,360
Speaker 2: is his actual quote, I'm not doing an offensive accent.

2498
02:07:25,600 --> 02:07:27,919
Speaker 2: I say to Thomas, if you don't do the prequel,

2499
02:07:28,000 --> 02:07:29,800
Speaker 2: I will do it with someone else. I don't want

2500
02:07:29,800 --> 02:07:32,360
Speaker 2: to lose this franchise and the audience wants it. He

2501
02:07:32,440 --> 02:07:35,000
Speaker 2: said no, I'm sorry, and I said I will do

2502
02:07:35,120 --> 02:07:37,480
Speaker 2: it with someone else, and then he said, let me

2503
02:07:37,520 --> 02:07:39,520
Speaker 2: think about it. I will come up with an idea.

2504
02:07:39,640 --> 02:07:43,560
Speaker 2: So that, dude, I hate that. I hate that man.

2505
02:07:43,880 --> 02:07:46,520
Speaker 2: That's what like what they did to Lanawachowski for Matrix Reloaded,

2506
02:07:46,520 --> 02:07:48,720
Speaker 2: where Warner Brothers was like, we're gonna do this with

2507
02:07:48,800 --> 02:07:50,680
Speaker 2: or without you. You can either come on board or

2508
02:07:50,960 --> 02:07:56,480
Speaker 2: we're gonna just do someone else. Hollywood Magical Industry. Hannibal

2509
02:07:56,520 --> 02:08:01,040
Speaker 2: Rising was savaged critically and made a respectwol on a

2510
02:08:01,080 --> 02:08:03,760
Speaker 2: reported fifty mil budget, but it basically killed the franchise

2511
02:08:03,800 --> 02:08:08,200
Speaker 2: into twenty twelve, when Brian Fuller's NBC series Hannibal, starring

2512
02:08:08,200 --> 02:08:11,320
Speaker 2: Mad's Mickelson in the titular role, picked up. I actually

2513
02:08:11,320 --> 02:08:14,080
Speaker 2: like Hannibal quite a lot. It's very visually beautiful and

2514
02:08:14,200 --> 02:08:18,480
Speaker 2: very twisted, but very well acted. And the three season

2515
02:08:18,600 --> 02:08:21,120
Speaker 2: arc of that show combines the plots of Red Dragon

2516
02:08:21,200 --> 02:08:23,200
Speaker 2: and Hannibal, but it fudges the timeline so that the

2517
02:08:23,200 --> 02:08:27,000
Speaker 2: whole thing builds up to him meeting Clarice. And then

2518
02:08:27,720 --> 02:08:31,800
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, CBS made a series called Clarice

2519
02:08:33,280 --> 02:08:37,600
Speaker 2: because Yeah, you didn't hear about this, No, No ip

2520
02:08:37,920 --> 02:08:41,840
Speaker 2: remains unturned in the current Hollywood climate, that focused on

2521
02:08:41,880 --> 02:08:45,200
Speaker 2: the events between Silent Lambs and Hannibal. Most recent news

2522
02:08:45,240 --> 02:08:47,720
Speaker 2: reports I read about it suggests that it is unlikely

2523
02:08:47,800 --> 02:08:50,680
Speaker 2: for it to get a second season, but ultimately, despite

2524
02:08:50,680 --> 02:08:55,400
Speaker 2: all of those misbegotten sequels, Silence remains relatively untarnished. In

2525
02:08:55,440 --> 02:08:58,320
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, Empire raked it forty eighth on their list

2526
02:08:58,360 --> 02:09:00,360
Speaker 2: of the five hundred Greatest movies of all time time.

2527
02:09:00,800 --> 02:09:03,560
Speaker 2: The American Film Institute ranked it their fifth greatest and

2528
02:09:03,600 --> 02:09:07,320
Speaker 2: most influential thriller, Starling and Lecter, ranked among the greatest

2529
02:09:07,320 --> 02:09:10,440
Speaker 2: film heroines and villains, and always my personal favorite. The

2530
02:09:10,480 --> 02:09:13,480
Speaker 2: Library of Congress selected the film for preservation in the

2531
02:09:13,560 --> 02:09:17,000
Speaker 2: National Filmmark Registry in two thousand and one, deeming it culturally, historically,

2532
02:09:17,080 --> 02:09:21,960
Speaker 2: or esthetically significant. And then, finally, two years after the

2533
02:09:21,960 --> 02:09:25,000
Speaker 2: film swept the Oscars, Thomas Harris turned on the TV

2534
02:09:25,600 --> 02:09:29,000
Speaker 2: to check the weather and land it on a cable channel,

2535
02:09:29,400 --> 02:09:32,480
Speaker 2: and he said the dialogue was very familiar. So I

2536
02:09:32,520 --> 02:09:36,640
Speaker 2: sat down and watched it. It was a wonderful movie. Wow,

2537
02:09:36,760 --> 02:09:38,960
Speaker 2: coming from him, So there's your happy ending.

2538
02:09:39,440 --> 02:09:44,040
Speaker 1: That's the opposite of Ken Kesey flicked through the channels

2539
02:09:44,080 --> 02:09:47,080
Speaker 1: and seeing one flew of the Cucko's Lest the Nilis

2540
02:09:47,160 --> 02:09:50,720
Speaker 1: forman version on TV and absolutely hating it and changing

2541
02:09:50,760 --> 02:09:51,600
Speaker 1: the channel right away.

2542
02:09:51,800 --> 02:09:52,760
Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't know that.

2543
02:09:53,440 --> 02:09:56,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a great line from Anthony Hopkins about why

2544
02:09:57,000 --> 02:10:00,160
Speaker 1: this movie and so many psychological thrillers, but especially this

2545
02:10:00,200 --> 02:10:03,000
Speaker 1: movie continue to resonate with so many people. You've just

2546
02:10:03,040 --> 02:10:06,320
Speaker 1: given yourself a little rehearsal for what terror is really like,

2547
02:10:07,280 --> 02:10:10,240
Speaker 1: but you know that you're really safe. I just thought

2548
02:10:10,280 --> 02:10:12,760
Speaker 1: that was a really elegant, articulate way to sum up

2549
02:10:12,800 --> 02:10:14,920
Speaker 1: a very complex psychological concept.

2550
02:10:15,360 --> 02:10:17,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, you talked about going into the theater, and he's like,

2551
02:10:17,360 --> 02:10:19,040
Speaker 2: and you're in the dark, you know, and then you

2552
02:10:19,120 --> 02:10:21,400
Speaker 2: come out when you're in all the people in the daylight,

2553
02:10:21,520 --> 02:10:25,320
Speaker 2: and it's this wonderful contrast. Talking to Vanity Fair, Foster

2554
02:10:25,360 --> 02:10:27,400
Speaker 2: and Hopkins bantered a little bit about the lines that

2555
02:10:27,400 --> 02:10:31,280
Speaker 2: they get badgered with the most. Hopkins said, I never

2556
02:10:31,320 --> 02:10:33,160
Speaker 2: get tired of it. I mean it's worn a bit

2557
02:10:33,200 --> 02:10:36,280
Speaker 2: thin now. When people say, do the slurping sound, I say, okay,

2558
02:10:36,680 --> 02:10:39,200
Speaker 2: you know, fava beans and all that. But I'm amused

2559
02:10:39,200 --> 02:10:42,280
Speaker 2: by it. And Jodi Foster added, I do love it.

2560
02:10:42,320 --> 02:10:44,360
Speaker 2: When people say, can I get you a nice kiante?

2561
02:10:44,920 --> 02:10:46,960
Speaker 2: I still love it, and there's no part of me

2562
02:10:47,040 --> 02:10:49,560
Speaker 2: that'll ever be tired of it, mostly because it's such

2563
02:10:49,560 --> 02:10:54,000
Speaker 2: a damn good movie. Almost three hours later, here we

2564
02:10:54,040 --> 02:10:58,839
Speaker 2: are twenty five pages, twenty five pages on signs and lamps. Folks,

2565
02:10:58,960 --> 02:11:00,640
Speaker 2: Thank you for so much for listen. And in case

2566
02:11:00,640 --> 02:11:02,080
Speaker 2: it was not evident, this is one of my favorite

2567
02:11:02,080 --> 02:11:04,000
Speaker 2: movies of all time. Real passion project for me, So

2568
02:11:04,040 --> 02:11:05,880
Speaker 2: thank you for going on this journey with us.

2569
02:11:06,240 --> 02:11:10,440
Speaker 1: It's time to have an old friend for dinner. Don't

2570
02:11:10,440 --> 02:11:11,480
Speaker 1: follow the trace in the call.

2571
02:11:11,600 --> 02:11:13,640
Speaker 2: I won't be on don't bollow the trace in the call.

2572
02:11:13,680 --> 02:11:19,680
Speaker 2: I won't be on wrong trees. Oh that jokes weren't thin, folks.

2573
02:11:19,680 --> 02:11:21,440
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. This has been too much information.

2574
02:11:21,680 --> 02:11:22,840
Speaker 2: I'm Alex Heigel.

2575
02:11:22,600 --> 02:11:30,520
Speaker 1: And I'm Jordan Runtagg. We'll catch you next time. Too

2576
02:11:30,560 --> 02:11:32,880
Speaker 1: Much Information was a production of iHeart Radio.

2577
02:11:33,080 --> 02:11:36,320
Speaker 2: The show's executive producers are Noel Brown and Jordan run Talk.

2578
02:11:36,520 --> 02:11:39,480
Speaker 1: The show's supervising producer is Michael Alder. June.

2579
02:11:39,640 --> 02:11:42,720
Speaker 2: The show was researched, written, and hosted by Jordan Runtalg

2580
02:11:42,760 --> 02:11:43,880
Speaker 2: and Alex Heigel.

2581
02:11:43,720 --> 02:11:46,960
Speaker 1: With original music by Seth Applebaum and the Ghost Funk Orchestra.

2582
02:11:47,280 --> 02:11:49,320
Speaker 1: If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave

2583
02:11:49,400 --> 02:11:52,360
Speaker 1: us a review. For more podcasts on iHeartRadio, visit the

2584
02:11:52,360 --> 02:11:55,680
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

2585
02:11:55,680 --> 02:11:58,360
Speaker 1: favorite shows.

2586
02:12:00,080 --> 02:12:00,600
Speaker 5: At la

2587
02:12:02,560 --> 02:12:06,040
Speaker 1: Adclat Basin and tur