1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: On this episode of The Newts World. With Thanksgiving this Thursday, 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about the history of establishing Thanksgiving 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: as a national holiday in the United States. President George 4 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: Washington was the first to issue a proclamation for the 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: holiday in seventeen eighty nine. However, it was Sarah Josepha Hale, 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: the influential author and editor of Goadie's Lady's Book, who 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: petitioned Congress and five different presidents to create a national 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: annual holiday for Thanksgiving between eighteen forty six and eighteen 9 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: sixty three. After all that effort, she was finally successful 10 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty three when President Abraham Lincoln declared Thanksgiving 11 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: a national holiday on the last Thursday in November. Lincoln's 12 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: proclamation urged the nation to heal its wounds and restore peace, harmony, tranquility, 13 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: and union. Here to talk about the history of Thanksgiving, 14 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: I am really pleased to welcome back my guest, Melanie Kirkpatrick. 15 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: She is the author of two very important books on 16 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: the subject, Lady Editor Sarah Josepha Hale and the Making 17 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: of the Modern American Woman and Thanksgiving, the Holiday at 18 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: the Heart of the American Experience. Melanie thank you for 19 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: joining me once again. It's always a delight to have 20 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 1: you sort of educate us, and you do such interesting work. 21 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 2: Thank you, and it's a pleasure to be back with you. 22 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 2: Just a few days before Thanksgiving. 23 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: I was fascinated by the role of Sarah Josepha Hale 24 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: chiapently was a pretty significant person just in her own right, 25 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: beyond Thanksgiving and developing a role for women. 26 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: Indeed, I actually think Newton, excuse an author's enthusiasm, I 27 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: think she's the most influential woman in American history. She 28 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: was editor of Gode's Lady's Book for fifty years, and 29 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: as such she had the most influence of any American woman. 30 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 2: Godie's Lady's Book was the most popular magazine before the 31 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 2: Civil War, and she used her position to push for 32 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: education for women, for employment opportunities for women, as well 33 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:42,399 Speaker 2: as being the godmother of Thanksgiving, which of course has 34 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,119 Speaker 2: become a lot of American's favorite holiday. 35 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: Who was Godye's sort of widely read by women across 36 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: the whole country or what was the impact it was? 37 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: It was widely read by women, and it was one 38 00:02:55,040 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: of the first nationally circulating magazines. I should add a 39 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 2: woman would subscribe, and sometimes there were clubs, there were 40 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: groups of women who would subscribe. So the magazine had 41 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 2: a pass along rate that, of course we don't know, 42 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 2: but was well beyond its official circulation. In addition to that, 43 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 2: Sarah Josepha Hale and the magazine would be quoted in newspapers, 44 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 2: so that also extended her influence. 45 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: Was it a monthly publication, right, It. 46 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 2: Was a monthly publication, and a typical issue would include 47 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 2: poetry and short stories, so literature as well as articles. 48 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: And her focus was on America. Now in eighteen twenty 49 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 2: eight when she started the magazine, this wasn't the case. 50 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: And one of her contributions I think was that she 51 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: focused a magazine on American subjects and American authors. She 52 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: had a wonderful eye for talent and she helped develop 53 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: the careers of such important authors as Edgar Allan Poe 54 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: and Nathaniel Hawthorne, as well as a whole slew of 55 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: female writers, and she asked them to write about America. 56 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: Harriet beecher Stowe, for example, wrote for her about a 57 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 2: canal trip she had taken someplace in New England. I've 58 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 2: forgotten where, but her goal was to help develop an 59 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 2: American culture. She argued that America had been united by 60 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 2: the Revolutionary War, it was united politically by the war, 61 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: but it was still not united culturally. And she wanted 62 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: Americans to stop looking across the ocean to Britain and 63 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 2: Europe for their culture, so to speak, but instead to 64 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 2: focus on the United States. That applied not just to 65 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: intellectual ideas to books and literature, but she also helped 66 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: to develop the culture by publishing recipes. She was the 67 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: first editor to include a cookery section in her magazine Fashion. 68 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 2: She favored not the fashions of Paris, but she liked plain, 69 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 2: old calico and the more practical fashions of America. So 70 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 2: she was a very influential figure. 71 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: I have to stand passion that she was the author 72 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: of Mary Had a Little Lamb. 73 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, she was the author of Mary had a 74 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 2: Little Lamb, which is probably the most recognizable verse in 75 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 2: American literature. And here's a little fact. It has a 76 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: third verse that nobody knows today. But the verse was 77 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 2: about being kind to animals. And this was typical of Hale. 78 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 2: She always included a moral in her children's writing. 79 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: That's wild. How did she initially get the job. Did 80 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,799 Speaker 1: she invent the magazinea was already existing? 81 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 2: No, she started it. She was forty years old when 82 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 2: she became the first editor of a magazine called Ladies 83 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 2: Magazine that was eventually purchased by mister Goadie of Philadelphia, 84 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: and he put his name on it and became Godie's 85 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: Lady's Book. But the way she got the job is interesting. 86 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: She was a widow. Her husband was a lawyer and 87 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: he died suddenly in the early eighteen twenties, leaving her 88 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 2: with four children and a fifth on the way. So 89 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 2: she had to scurry about and figure out a way 90 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 2: to provide for her family, especially for their education. So 91 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 2: she started writing, got some poetry published in Boston publications, 92 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: and then she published a novel called Northwood, which was 93 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 2: an anti slavery novel several decades before Uncle Tom's Cabin. 94 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 2: And that book was very popular in Britain especially, But 95 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: in any case, it caught the eye of a man 96 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 2: in Boston who was starting up a magazine for women, 97 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 2: and he wrote to her out of the blue, asking 98 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: her if she would edit it. This was eighteen twenty eight. 99 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,679 Speaker 2: It was a tough decision for her to make, because 100 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 2: it meant that she had to break up her family 101 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 2: for a while until she got settled in Boston and 102 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: was prosperous enough to send for them. So she, with 103 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: the criticism of many of her friends in Newport, New Hampshire, 104 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 2: she decided to accept the job. So that was how 105 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: she became editor. 106 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: Here she is, she's writing, and obviously she was remarkably 107 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: well educated for her time. I mean, you don't think 108 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: of that many women having that range of capabilities. 109 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. In eighteen twenty eight, only about half 110 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: of a minut American women were literate, and there, of 111 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 2: course was not a single institute of higher education that 112 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: would accept women. She was educated first by her mother, 113 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: who believed that girls needed to be as well educated 114 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: as boys, and then by her brother, who was able 115 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: to go off to Dartmouth. They were in New Hampshire, 116 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 2: and he would come home on his vacations and teach 117 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: Sarah everything he had learned at Dartmouth, in effect giving 118 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 2: her the benefit of a college education and one of 119 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 2: her maybe her main goal actually as editor of Godie's 120 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 2: Lady's Book was to see women educated. She pushed from 121 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 2: the very first issue into her very last issue as editor, 122 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 2: she was pushing for more education for women. She also 123 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 2: pushed for women to become teachers. Back in the eighteen 124 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 2: twenties and third parties, women were considered as inferior to 125 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: men intellectually and capable only of teaching small children their ABC's, 126 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 2: and she instead pushed for women successfully. I might add 127 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 2: for women to become teachers. 128 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: From a very early stage. She's an actist. Well. One 129 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: of the things you note is that David Ramsay's history 130 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: of the American Revolution had an impact when she was 131 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: only ten years old. 132 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: That tells you about the kind of child she was 133 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 2: and the kind of woman she became. She had a 134 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: natural intelligence and curiosity. Imagine reading that book at the 135 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 2: age of ten, and she called it one of her 136 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 2: favorite books, though her most favorite book after the Bible, 137 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 2: presumably was Pilgrim's Progress. 138 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: Which is a pretty complicated book. 139 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, this. 140 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: Is not late reading. 141 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 2: No, But to answer to your point more directly, she 142 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 2: was sedated by American history, and her magazines reflect that, 143 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 2: especially the Revolution. Washington was a great hero of hers. 144 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: In her eighteen twenty seven novel Northwood, she describes a 145 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 2: New England Thanksgiving Day and I think it still stands 146 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 2: as the best description of what Thanksgiving is like even today, 147 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 2: two hundred years later. She places the portrait of Washington 148 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 2: in the room where the Thanksgiving dinner is held. 149 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: We don't realize how much in the first half of 150 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century Washington and Jefferson and the whole sense 151 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: of the founding that this was a unique, remarkable experience, 152 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: and that people had enormous pride in being Americans, and 153 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: in the sense that, as Lincoln would say later, that 154 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: this was a great experiment about whether or not people 155 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: could govern themselves. And it seems to me that she 156 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: fit into that kind of commitment to in America that 157 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: was successful absolutely. 158 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 2: And she of course had a personal stories to tell. 159 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 2: Her father had fought in the Revolution, most of her 160 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 2: uncles and her husband's family as well, the men and 161 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 2: her husband's family had fought, so she grew up with 162 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 2: these stories and was very, very proud of being an American. 163 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 2: This has very much influenced her decision to craft her 164 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 2: magazine as an American magazine. She wanted women throughout this 165 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 2: expanding country, because, of course, the country grew enormously during 166 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 2: the time of her editorship. She wanted the women, the mothers, 167 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 2: and the wives of America to be as proud of 168 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: their country as she was, and to teach that prime 169 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 2: to their children. One of the reasons she was so 170 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: keen on promoting Thanksgiving as a national holiday was that 171 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 2: she thought that there was a moral character to the holiday, 172 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 2: and that if all Americans sat down to dinner with 173 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 2: their families and friends on the same day every year, 174 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: that it would help to preserve the union. And if 175 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 2: you read her editorials about Thanksgiving starting in the late 176 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 2: eighteen forties or mid eighteen forties and going up to 177 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,719 Speaker 2: Lincoln's time, you can see that that passion is intensified 178 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 2: as one gets closer to the Civil War. 179 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: I'm very struck, as you explained in your book, that 180 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: here she is leading a relatively normal life. She is 181 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 1: expecting her fifth child. Suddenly her husband gets caught in 182 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: a rainstorm, catches pneumonia, and is dead. There was not 183 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: much of a social safety net in that era. Would 184 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: have been pretty easy for her to have been crushed 185 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: by the experience of being left alone with five children. 186 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 2: Yes, you're right, it was a freak snowstorm, by the way, 187 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 2: So what happened to a woman in that period was 188 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 2: that hopefully her family would rally round and she was 189 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 2: encouraged to parcel her kids out to relatives, and instead 190 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 2: she wanted to at that period find a way to 191 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 2: keep the family together. About the only job that a 192 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: respectable woman of that era could do was sewing, and 193 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: her husband had been a Freemason, and they rallied round 194 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,479 Speaker 2: to set her up in a millinery shop. A millinery 195 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 2: is hat making, and she hated it, absolutely hated it, 196 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 2: which is why she turned to writing. And the same 197 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 2: group of freemasons financed the publication of her first book, 198 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 2: which was a book of poetry. And there's some speculation 199 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 2: that she was able to use this freemason network to 200 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 2: get attention from other publishers. But she had to have 201 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 2: been very courageous and also very creative in coming up 202 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: with a way to keep her family together. All of 203 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 2: her children got great educations. She had three boys and 204 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 2: two girls. I might also add that as a widow, 205 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: she had more authority and freedom of action than married 206 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 2: woman would have had in that period. Under the common 207 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 2: law of the day, there was a practice called coverture, 208 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: which required a wife to hand a newly married woman 209 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: to hand over all of her property rights to her 210 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 2: husband for his management, and that meant that a married 211 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 2: woman wouldn't have had the freedom to be an editor. 212 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 2: If she had, say, commissioned an article by an author 213 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 2: and promised to pay him X dollars, the author would 214 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 2: have been pretty stupid if he hadn't made sure that 215 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 2: her husband agreed to that too, because a wife did 216 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: not have the authority to manage her own money. And 217 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 2: this was something that Hale inveighed against in her magazine, 218 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: not just for middle class women like her, but especially 219 00:15:54,680 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 2: for poor women, because as she saw in Boston when 220 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 2: she went there to edit a ladies book, she saw 221 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 2: there there were women whose husbands would be sailors and 222 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 2: they disappear for years at a time, and women were 223 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,119 Speaker 2: left unable to act on their own behalf their husbands 224 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: weren't there, and if their husband came home, they might 225 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 2: take all of their earnings that had been piling up 226 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 2: for them while they were gone and head for the 227 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 2: local tavern, and women couldn't influence that in any way 228 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 2: under the law. 229 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: It's almost miraculous that she's able to somehow get through 230 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: all of these barriers and lead her own life doing 231 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: her own thing in a way which has an impact 232 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: on history. 233 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: This is what happens in America. A person with a 234 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 2: good idea in a free and democratic society and who 235 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 2: is willing to work hard for it can achieve success. 236 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 2: And I think that was the case with Hale. Yes, 237 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 2: there were many barriers to her success, but she was 238 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: able to rise above them and become the success that 239 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 2: she was. 240 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: You make a point that part of her impact was 241 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: on encouraging the role of women and the education of women, 242 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: and by the time she retired in eighteen seventy seven, 243 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: there were actually more girls and boys attending high school. Yes, 244 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: thirty percent of the colleges were co ed and there 245 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: were several all female colleges. There is a quiet revolution 246 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 1: in the middle of an ongoing civil war and everything 247 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: else that's going on. That's a pretty remarkable achievement. 248 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 2: There were other women who were fighting for education for 249 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 2: women as well, but she had something they didn't have, 250 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 2: which was an editorial megaphone. She was able to reach 251 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: into every corner of the country and to spread her 252 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 2: ideas very widely across different levels of society. 253 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: Why do you think that the General Revolution was agreeing 254 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: was this partly a reaction to industrialization, or I think 255 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: it didn't realize until your book that you actually had 256 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: more women in high school or more girls than boys 257 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: in the eighteen seventies. That's sort of astonishing. 258 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, boys had to go out to work in 259 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 2: many cases, so that is part of the explanation. 260 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: Why do you think she picked up the Thanksgiving holiday 261 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: as a particular crusade. 262 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 2: I think she saw it as a quasei patriotic holiday. 263 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 2: She would write about how America had two national holidays 264 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 2: Washington's Birthday and of course Independence Day on July fourth, 265 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 2: and so now we need a third holiday and a 266 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 2: third season. She used that argument, it's just a seasonal argument, 267 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 2: we deserve a third holiday. But she saw it as 268 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: a uniquely American holiday and agreed that it was a 269 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 2: day that we should step back and give thanks for 270 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 2: our blessings as American citizens. She also saw it as 271 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 2: a particularly female focused holiday because it was a holiday 272 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 2: about food, a holiday about family, and also a holiday 273 00:19:52,440 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 2: about faith. And finally, I think her personal love of 274 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 2: the holiday growing up in New England played a big 275 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 2: role as well, and she wanted to share that the 276 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 2: moral aspect of it was very important to her, and 277 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 2: she saw women as moral influencers. That, by the way, 278 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 2: was the reason Hale did not want women to vote. 279 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 2: She thought politics was a dirty business. Who can argue 280 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 2: with that, and that men could vote and men could 281 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 2: go to Congress and compromise, but because women didn't have 282 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 2: the vote, they could exert more influence on the decision makers, 283 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 2: trying to remind them of the moral aspects of the 284 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 2: issues they were considering. 285 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: It's interesting that as early as eighteen twenty seven she's 286 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: writing about Thanksgiving, but she's doing it in a novel. 287 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: Wasn't it relatively unusual for women to be novelist in 288 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: that period? 289 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: Yes, it was when you think that for fifty years 290 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 2: she was editing a magazine monthly and writing every month 291 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 2: for that magazine. But the book she considered her greatest 292 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 2: achievement was a book that came out in the eighteen fifties. 293 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 2: It was a history of women. It's a big, very 294 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 2: thick doorstopper of a book, and it has biographies of 295 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 2: famous women from even the Bible to the contemporary women 296 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 2: of her own day, and the amount of research it 297 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 2: must have taken. And then not to mention the writing 298 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 2: of it. But the amount of research was phenomenal, and 299 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 2: these biographical essays would be several pages long, and then 300 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 2: she would include if they were writers, something of their 301 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 2: writing extracts from their writing. But it's the first book 302 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 2: of women's history. 303 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: This is a remarkable woman. I noticed. Also part of 304 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: her campaign for Thanksgiving is publishing menus including roast turkey 305 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: and pumpkin pie, which have certainly been lasting contributions to 306 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: the American culinary experience, and it certainly brings back all 307 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: of my childhood memories. She's literally almost two hundred years 308 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: ago beginning to lay out a framework which still today exists. 309 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,719 Speaker 2: Yes, well, remember she was writing about it, but she 310 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 2: didn't create turkey and cranberry as an idea for Thanksgiving dinner. 311 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 2: That was something that had developed in New England over 312 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 2: the previous century and had become pretty standard by the 313 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 2: time she was writing about it. There was also a 314 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 2: feature of Thanksgiving dinner that I learned from Hale, which 315 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 2: was chicken pot pie. That was back in her day 316 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 2: a standard feature of a New England and Thanksgiving dinner 317 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 2: that's wild. 318 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: The other thing that you point out there were lots 319 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: of Thanksgivings at the state level before Lincoln. But from 320 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: what I gathered from Washington on, Washington had declared a 321 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: day of Thanksgiving, partly based I think on his deep 322 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: belief that without Providence, the United States wouldn't have existed. 323 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: But it sort of becomes a state level question until 324 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,959 Speaker 1: she convinces Lincoln, and I frankly didn't realize that Thanksgivings 325 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: were pretty widespread, but they were at a state level. 326 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: Yes. What happened was I think Washington grasped this idea 327 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 2: in his Thanksgiving Proclamation, which by the way, was the 328 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 2: first executive order of a president. Washington issued this proclamation 329 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 2: and then he did something quite remarkable. He had it 330 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 2: sent to the governor of each of the thirteen states 331 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 2: with a cover letter asking them if they would please 332 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 2: implement it. I think he understood that the Constitution did 333 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 2: not give the president the authority to call a Thanksgiving day. 334 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 2: And this was the argument that Hale heard again and 335 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 2: again when she wrote to presidents of the United States 336 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 2: asking them to name a national day of Thanksgiving, they'd 337 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 2: write back. She was, as I said, so famous and 338 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: so influential that even a president of the United States 339 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 2: would write back to Hale when she wrote him, and 340 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 2: the argument was that this authority of calling a holiday 341 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 2: was left to the governor, not to the president. The 342 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 2: president could call it in Washington, d c. And in 343 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 2: the territories over which he had greater authority, but not 344 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: in individual states. So the idea of Thanksgiving had caught on, 345 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 2: and many, if not most, states would name a th 346 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 2: Thanksgiving Day, but the governors didn't coordinate. And there was 347 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 2: a marvelous saying in the early nineteenth century that if 348 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 2: you wanted a good Thanksgiving dinner, you could travel every 349 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 2: week from election Day till Christmas Day and depending upon 350 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 2: your itinerary, find a good dinner. 351 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: You could plan your state visits on Thanksgiving and keep 352 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: moving around. That's hystereodill. Now she stays active, though, and 353 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: after Lincoln is killed, she is petitioning both Andrew Johnson 354 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: and USC's Grant as they become president to continue the tradition. 355 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: And I gather at that point it became solidified as 356 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: a national habit. 357 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, every president since Lincoln has issued a Thanksgiving proclamation. 358 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 2: And I will say that after Lincoln, Hale changed her 359 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 2: view a little bit. She wrote to Grant asking him 360 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 2: to get Congress to make it official. That happened until 361 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 2: in the late nineteen thirties, FDR changed the date of Thanksgiving, 362 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 2: which had always been the last Thursday of November since 363 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 2: Lincoln's proclamation, and he created a national uproar for having 364 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 2: the temerity to do so. He wanted Thanksgiving to be 365 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 2: a week earlier because, in his not very clever economic theory, 366 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 2: Americans would spend more money on Christmas shopping if they 367 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 2: had an extra week to do so. But of course 368 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 2: Americans didn't have the money to spend, so this idea flopped, 369 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 2: and for four years, half of Americans celebrated on the 370 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 2: traditional date and the other half celebrated on the date 371 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 2: that Roosevelt had called, and they referred to it as Franksgiving. 372 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 2: And then in nineteen forty one, Congress passed a resolution 373 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 2: naming Thanksgiving as the second to last Thursday in November. 374 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 2: So in nineteen forty two, America was at war and 375 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 2: the first Thanksgiving in the war took place, and Americans 376 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 2: were once again unified and celebrating on the same day. 377 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: Right, and then that led to the famous Norman Rockwell 378 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: painting of Thanksgiving. There's a Sarey Evening postcover. Now I 379 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 1: have to ask you a second. You always do interesting 380 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: things and I always learn from you. What are you 381 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: going to work on next? 382 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: I'm not sure, Newt. I'm looking for a good idea. 383 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 2: I'd like to do something else on Thanksgiving. Maybe there 384 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 2: are a lot of wonderful pieces of literature throughout American history, 385 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 2: short stories, proclamations. I'd love to do a collection of that. Possibly, 386 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 2: but I haven't found another book idea that really grabs 387 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 2: me by the throat and says this has to be written. 388 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: Books are hard enough to write that if you're not 389 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: excited about him, he gets to be a really long 390 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: trek trying to get it done. But I want to 391 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,959 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me and for sharing the history 392 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: of establishing Thanksgiving, and frankly, even more important, for sharing 393 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: with us all this about Sarah Josepha Hale. Both of 394 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: your remarkable books, Lady Editor, Sarah Josepha Hale and The 395 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: Making of the Modern American Woman and Thanksgiving, The Holiday 396 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,719 Speaker 1: at the Heart of the American Experience, are both going 397 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: to be available on our show page. They're remarkably good 398 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 1: reading at this time of the year, and for me, 399 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving is one of my favorite holidays, so I think 400 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: it's terrific that you have really brought to all of 401 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: us a much deeper knowledge and much better understanding. I 402 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: thank you for sharing this with us. 403 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 2: Thank you, Knud. It was great to be with you 404 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 2: again and I wish you were very happy Thanksgiving. 405 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guests Melanie Kirkpatrick. You can get 406 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: a link to buy her books Editor Sarah Josepha Hale 407 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: and the Making of the Modern American Woman and Thanksgiving 408 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,719 Speaker 1: The Holiday at the Heart of the American Experience on 409 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: our show page at newtsworld dot com. News World is 410 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: produced by Ganglish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer 411 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: is Guarnsey Sloan and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 412 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: artwork for the show who was created by Steve Penley. 413 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingish three sixty. If 414 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 415 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 416 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 417 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners at Newtsworld can sign up for my 418 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: three freeweekly columns at gangwishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 419 00:29:47,840 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: I'm Newt Gingrich. This is newtsworld.