Speaker 1: The following episode was recorded before the WGA sag Aftra
Speaker 1: strikes of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: Since we taped this episode, sadly, a war is broken
Speaker 2: out between Israel and Palestine and the Middle East, and
Speaker 2: today's episode highlights the work of UNISEF in Egypt, where
Speaker 2: they are currently at the front lines of trying to
Speaker 2: advance humanitarian aid to the civilians who are in Gaza.
Speaker 2: There are no words that can frame how deeply horrified
Speaker 2: we are at the amount of lives lost in such
Speaker 2: a short period of time throughout this region. We recognize
Speaker 2: that we are a show people would want to turn
Speaker 2: two to discuss such matters, but by the nature of
Speaker 2: our pre recorded taping schedule, we are not able to
Speaker 2: bring on a guest that can speak to this moment
Speaker 2: at this time.
Speaker 3: But what we do want to appeal.
Speaker 2: To our audience to do today is to consider financially
Speaker 2: supporting Egypt. There's so many displaced people, specifically children, who
Speaker 2: decimately desperately need your help. So look to our show
Speaker 2: notes for more information. You know, I didn't really travel
Speaker 2: that much when I was a young man. My parents
Speaker 2: they would travel, but they wouldn't take There were six
Speaker 2: kids so they would take us with them. But when
Speaker 2: I finally did travel, I remember being struck with a
Speaker 2: couple of things. One was that even at feeling like
Speaker 2: a worldly type person, you know, I really was living
Speaker 2: in a bubble and I didn't really understand things outside
Speaker 2: of this country that we live in. And I was
Speaker 2: also struck with the fact that outside of the gates
Speaker 2: of any resort community, there are a lot of people
Speaker 2: that are living with very, very little, and you'll see
Speaker 2: this pretty much anywhere you're gonna go. And it brought
Speaker 2: me to a point of view that I had to
Speaker 2: really look a little bit more carefully at everything that
Speaker 2: I had and at the privilege that I've experienced in
Speaker 2: my life, and to try to think outside of this
Speaker 2: relatively small world that I have created here. Traveling across
Speaker 2: the country also has allowed me to do that, you know,
Speaker 2: as an actor, sometimes I'll go to places that are
Speaker 2: not on anybody's tourist map, but they happen to be
Speaker 2: places where we are filming.
Speaker 3: And rather than just being there.
Speaker 2: As a tourist, if you go as an actor, you
Speaker 2: really have to stop and live someplace, and you know,
Speaker 2: find yourself to the laundromat or the target or whatever
Speaker 2: it is, a grocery store, and you know, it's really
Speaker 2: really a great thing. First off, to see the commonality
Speaker 2: between us in that we all have this desire to
Speaker 2: be safe and take care of our children and have
Speaker 2: food and shelter. And also the disparity between the haves
Speaker 2: and the have nots has always been a really powerful thing,
Speaker 2: which really leads me to this conversation that I'm having
Speaker 2: today with Alyssa Milano. She's been involved with an Egyptian
Speaker 2: organization that's sponsored by UNISEEF. It brought up a lot
Speaker 2: of feelings about the lack of social support in many
Speaker 2: parts of the world where people are just striving to
Speaker 2: make a better life for themselves. So, Leana, I'm glad
Speaker 2: you're here.
Speaker 3: Alyssa Milano is here in person.
Speaker 2: With me, very very excited to have this amazing actress, entrepreneur, activist, producer, writer, author.
Speaker 4: This is why I'm so tired.
Speaker 3: I mean, I was going to say.
Speaker 2: What I was thinking was, how do you find time
Speaker 2: to come down to hang out with me? I really
Speaker 2: do appreciated the time time, and you're just coming from
Speaker 2: a television appearance today. You got a lot I mean,
Speaker 2: what a fascinating.
Speaker 3: Career you've had. Well, first off, we do this dumb thing.
Speaker 2: It is six degrees of may, not really may, but
Speaker 2: six degrees in general.
Speaker 3: And and so we do this thing.
Speaker 2: But you know, I was thinking about a connection that
Speaker 2: I don't even know if you're aware of this maybe, but.
Speaker 3: Where the day takes you? Do you remember that one?
Speaker 2: So the director of that, Mark Rocker. The next movie
Speaker 2: I was in, was called Murder in the First and
Speaker 2: Mark was a fantastic director. I mean I wanted to
Speaker 2: do he did. Yeah, he sadly passed away. I guess,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of a troubled guy, but really an
Speaker 2: amazing director. And and I wanted to do Murder in
Speaker 2: the First based on where.
Speaker 4: They takes it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which if anybody hasn't seen it, that's a good
Speaker 2: one to pull up.
Speaker 4: Still incredibly relevant too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how did you end up? How did you end
Speaker 2: up in that movie? It was a big cast.
Speaker 4: I think I just auditioned. I don't remember. It was
Speaker 4: a very long time, like the last years.
Speaker 3: I know, I know, I know, that is a long
Speaker 3: long time. Yeah, But you grew up in the city, right,
Speaker 3: I was.
Speaker 5: Born in Brooklyn and then we moved to Staten Island, okay,
Speaker 5: because someone got shot in the front yard of our
Speaker 5: apartment in Brooklyn. Oh wow, this was it was in Bensonhurst.
Speaker 5: This was during the race riots. So what year was
Speaker 5: regular seventy six? And then we moved to Staten Island,
Speaker 5: you know, because that was like that was my parents
Speaker 5: making it and giving us, you know, the life that
Speaker 5: that a child deserved.
Speaker 3: So that was moving on up to get the stand, yes.
Speaker 4: Exactly, and lived in Staten Island.
Speaker 3: Talk out who's the boss and what did your parents do?
Speaker 5: My mom was a fashion designer and my dad was
Speaker 5: in insurance. Okay, so not anywhere near the industry except
Speaker 5: my mom and dad were.
Speaker 4: My dad was a musician, so.
Speaker 5: I grew up with incredible live music and my mom
Speaker 5: sketching in her in her sketchbook. And she used to
Speaker 5: do these fashion shows instead of doing them during fashion
Speaker 5: week like you know, the normal way she she would
Speaker 5: do them in clubs at night, like after a whole
Speaker 5: day of fashion shows during fashion week. And one of
Speaker 5: her dancers, slash Models, was.
Speaker 4: An actor and had her equity card and used to
Speaker 4: go in for open auditions all the time.
Speaker 5: She was also my babysitter so she unbeknownst to my.
Speaker 6: Parents, it's very convenient when your babysitter has an equity card.
Speaker 6: She she took me up for an open anti audition
Speaker 6: where she was auditioning for the ensemble.
Speaker 4: And we got there.
Speaker 3: Your parents didn't know this was happening.
Speaker 5: Had no clue until the last round, which was like,
Speaker 5: I don't know nine hours later.
Speaker 7: Wow.
Speaker 4: And she looked at me.
Speaker 5: And I was, you know, looking at the stage, and
Speaker 5: I didn't know what they were doing. I was seven,
Speaker 5: but they were singing and dancing and I love to
Speaker 5: do that, so I guess I was looking longingly and
Speaker 5: she said, do you want an audition? And I was
Speaker 5: like sure, I don't know what that means. There were
Speaker 5: fifteen hundred kids that were there, and four were.
Speaker 4: Picked out of the fifteen hundred.
Speaker 3: Wow, and that's did you have a song prepared?
Speaker 4: I mean sang happy Birthday? Because I didn't have a song?
Speaker 3: Wow?
Speaker 7: Wow?
Speaker 2: Okay, well you had that? When did you bring the
Speaker 2: sheet music for it?
Speaker 3: He knew it? You know it? Okay? Okay.
Speaker 2: So so I mean, I love this is the greatest
Speaker 2: story because, for one thing, the idea that you're an.
Speaker 3: Actress and a babysitter.
Speaker 2: And you have to but you but you got an audition, right,
Speaker 2: you got to go to the audition. You can't you
Speaker 2: can't not go to the audition that that she drags
Speaker 2: you along. So did you get you got this part?
Speaker 4: I got the part?
Speaker 3: And what was it? A bus and truck?
Speaker 5: We tour a second natural national touring company for eighteen months.
Speaker 3: Wow, And I'm assuming it's it's Annie.
Speaker 4: I know I played July.
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know. I don't know that one, okay.
Speaker 4: And I understudied for Molly, which was the Little One.
Speaker 2: Okay, So I'm I'm not familiar with the show that one.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I've ever saw it. But so,
Speaker 2: what what does your dad play?
Speaker 5: My dad plays everything, piano, guitar, He's just one of them.
Speaker 5: And now he's a music editor for films. He started
Speaker 5: that when he was like forty.
Speaker 4: He just woke up and he was.
Speaker 5: Like, you know what, I think would put my knowledge
Speaker 5: of music to good and my love of film to
Speaker 5: good use.
Speaker 4: And he does Michael Mann movies and like he's.
Speaker 3: So he's doing what he loves. He's doing its opposed
Speaker 3: to insurance exactly, now was it?
Speaker 2: I mean I don't know if anybody outside of like
Speaker 2: the New York experience would quite understand this, because I
Speaker 2: think we people just kind of tend to lump New
Speaker 2: York into one sort of bundle, and but I would
Speaker 2: think that benson Hurst to Staten Island might have a
Speaker 2: certain level of culture. Shock or not so much? Did
Speaker 2: they feel pretty similar?
Speaker 5: I think I was so young, but I think the
Speaker 5: thing that I recognized was that we were going from
Speaker 5: an apartment to a house with backyard and you know,
Speaker 5: all those.
Speaker 2: Things that I'm sure the school was different, Yes, was
Speaker 2: it public school or.
Speaker 4: A public school? I went to PS thirty two and
Speaker 4: twenty four until I.
Speaker 5: Got into into acting, and then I was tutored on
Speaker 5: the set, you know, for most of my academic career,
Speaker 5: which I actually think was a very important thing for me,
Speaker 5: because I am dyslexic, and so working with a teacher
Speaker 5: or a tutor one on one enabled me to learn
Speaker 5: at my own pace and also instilled this love of
Speaker 5: learning that I still have.
Speaker 2: As I always like to say, thank dog, I'm not
Speaker 2: not dyslexic. But so you, uh, how old were you
Speaker 2: when you started working in television?
Speaker 5: So I was ten when I got Who's the Boss,
Speaker 5: the pilot and eleven the first year, and we wrapped
Speaker 5: when I was nineteen.
Speaker 4: Oh my, what, yes, it was forever. It was my
Speaker 4: entire childhood.
Speaker 3: You so interesting? Go ahead, Sorry, Well it was wild.
Speaker 5: Because you know, when you think about TV now, you know,
Speaker 5: if you get a couple of million viewership because it's
Speaker 5: so liquidated because there's so many options, that was a
Speaker 5: big deal. But then there were there. It wasn't even Fox, right,
Speaker 5: so it was ABC, NBC, and CBS, and to be
Speaker 5: a top ten show meant that you were getting twenty
Speaker 5: million viewers a week.
Speaker 3: It's incredible you think about. Yeah, the difference in today.
Speaker 5: And also the other difference is like when the first
Speaker 5: year when we aired, we were up against Family Ties
Speaker 5: and there was just no way and we were all
Speaker 5: the way on the bottom of the Nielsen ratings, you know,
Speaker 5: which actually meant something then. But ABC believed in the
Speaker 5: show and just stuck with it and found a time
Speaker 5: slot that worked.
Speaker 4: This is so long ago.
Speaker 5: Our second season, Happy Days was before our show, So
Speaker 5: Happy Days was at eight pm, as The Boss was
Speaker 5: at eight thirty, and because of that time change, we became,
Speaker 5: you know, the number one show in the nation, which
Speaker 5: which meant a lot at that point.
Speaker 3: So how does that.
Speaker 2: I mean, what's also interesting about that to me is
Speaker 2: that boy talk about some formative years ten to nineteen.
Speaker 4: I mean, that was the culture shock was not right, and.
Speaker 2: You'd never lived in California. Obviously your whole family moved
Speaker 2: out to California.
Speaker 5: They didn't move the first year because I had my
Speaker 5: brother and I are ten years apart.
Speaker 4: My mom like, this is never going.
Speaker 3: To go ten years old or younger, younger, I'm going.
Speaker 5: To say here, you know, you guys come back. Television
Speaker 5: shows don't make it. There's no way. So just my
Speaker 5: dad and I went, which was amazing. I had a
Speaker 5: whole year with my dad in California, and it was
Speaker 5: that was a very formative point in my life because
Speaker 5: I just wanted to do everything he did.
Speaker 4: So my love for sports came from that era. My my.
Speaker 5: Intrigue in politics and political activism was during that time.
Speaker 4: I learned so much about.
Speaker 2: Ten years old, you developed a feeling for politics and
Speaker 2: political activism.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, but remember this was at a time that
Speaker 5: was so it was eighty two, HIV aids started became
Speaker 5: very prevalent. The quote unquote which now we see as
Speaker 5: we're recognized as being super racist, the war on drugs.
Speaker 5: I mean, there's pictures of me in the White House
Speaker 5: with Nancy Reagan, like, you know, just say no at
Speaker 5: that age, but I think, I think, you know, back
Speaker 5: it was such a different time, and.
Speaker 4: But not because I was. I was able to.
Speaker 5: At a very young age, especially with HIV AIDS and
Speaker 5: the fear surrounding it, I was able to recognize that
Speaker 5: that fear was being.
Speaker 4: Used for political purposes.
Speaker 5: And the reason why I was able to recognize that
Speaker 5: is I became friends with Ryan White, you know, Who's
Speaker 5: the boss was so big, and the culture shock for
Speaker 5: me was that I was a very introverted kid. I
Speaker 5: was an artist. I grew up like not acting in
Speaker 5: front of a live studio audience. That did not come
Speaker 5: easy for me, and so the fame at such a
Speaker 5: young age was very uncomfortable, very odd. Fame is weird
Speaker 5: and at you know, twelve thirteen years old, when you're
Speaker 5: going through puberty and then you're showing up on set
Speaker 5: and there's a script called Sam's First Bra and you're
Speaker 5: just like, you know, and you're you know, it's it's
Speaker 5: it was, and being a young girl at that time
Speaker 5: and the sexualization of young women.
Speaker 4: And it was just hard. It was hard.
Speaker 5: And I got a phone call just to give you
Speaker 5: an idea of how obscure my life was, from Elton
Speaker 5: John and he said, I'm friends with this little boy
Speaker 5: named Ryan White, and he loves you and would you
Speaker 5: meet with him? And now, Ryan, for those that don't know,
Speaker 5: he was kicked out of school because he was HIV
Speaker 5: positive from a blood transfusion and the the whole fear
Speaker 5: around HIV at the time was that you could get
Speaker 5: it from casual contact, which is why he was kicked
Speaker 5: out of school. He fought for the right to go
Speaker 5: back to school. He spoke in front of Congress and
Speaker 5: he and I became friends after this meeting.
Speaker 3: And how old were you at the time.
Speaker 4: I was fifteen and he was fifteen.
Speaker 3: Oh, he was fifteen, Okay, And the.
Speaker 5: Two of us, I think really connected on feeling othered
Speaker 5: and feeling like we didn't really fit in anywhere, and
Speaker 5: I loved him dearly. I say activism is a great
Speaker 5: love story for me because I started in love and
Speaker 5: the moment was when Ryan asked me to go on
Speaker 5: TV and kiss him to prove that you couldn't get
Speaker 5: HIV AIDS from casual contact, and I did.
Speaker 4: That moment changed everything for me.
Speaker 2: I mean, for a fifteen year old to have that
Speaker 2: kind of that kind of just a foresight to see
Speaker 2: how powerful a moment this would be, and also to
Speaker 2: be able to overcome what was clearly being fear message
Speaker 2: to us at the time is just I mean, I
Speaker 2: so admire you for doing that.
Speaker 3: How did your parents feel about that?
Speaker 4: Totally supportive? Totally supportive?
Speaker 2: And what about the what about the show and the network?
Speaker 2: I mean, would you have you gotten you know, push
Speaker 2: back from from them? It was from the man, as
Speaker 2: they say.
Speaker 5: It was right around the time when Judith Light also
Speaker 5: started really fundraising.
Speaker 3: For HIV eight's so and Elton was on board.
Speaker 5: And Elton yes, and so you know, I think I
Speaker 5: think the public had a really hard time with it
Speaker 5: because here was, you know, how I was always presented
Speaker 5: was America's sweetheart, and those that believed were bought into
Speaker 5: the fear mongering.
Speaker 4: You know, I got a lot of hate mail.
Speaker 5: So I always people say to me all the time, like,
Speaker 5: how do you deal with the trolls on social media?
Speaker 5: It's like I've been I've been trolled since I kissed
Speaker 5: Ryan White on the Phil Donna You show, like that's oh, that's.
Speaker 3: Where it was the Phil Donna.
Speaker 4: So yeah, so and it changed my life. And I
Speaker 4: got to tell you, I think more.
Speaker 5: Than anything, I was like, oh, like I could be
Speaker 5: uncomfortable being famous, or I could do this with my fame,
Speaker 5: and I I gotta tell you, like, I think the
Speaker 5: rebellion that young people go through, like that was my
Speaker 5: fucking rebellion. I was like, I'm gonna piss people off.
Speaker 3: M h, I'm.
Speaker 5: Going to do things that change narratives. And so it
Speaker 5: was it was Ryan that gave me that gift. And
Speaker 5: you know, I've been an activist ever since. But they
Speaker 5: were without social media. You know, people weren't aware of
Speaker 5: of the philanthropy or what.
Speaker 4: I was doing.
Speaker 2: Sure, well, I mean I think that you know, we
Speaker 2: always we always can find about a billion things that
Speaker 2: social media is not good for. But when it comes
Speaker 2: to activism and things of a charitable nature's nature, sometimes
Speaker 2: it's really can be a very very powerful tool well.
Speaker 5: And also like controlling your own content, right, like I
Speaker 5: was able to say this is this is where I'm
Speaker 5: going to volunteer my time, this week, whereas you know,
Speaker 5: thirty years ago you had to be invited to do
Speaker 5: an interview to talk about, you know.
Speaker 4: Being.
Speaker 5: A part a progressive part of the community, right you weren't.
Speaker 5: You weren't handed those opportunities, And now those opportunities are
Speaker 5: right in front of us. We can actually control the
Speaker 5: content that gets out there. So that was a big change.
Speaker 2: So I guess I guess what I'm wondering is that
Speaker 2: from that point on, you're fifteen, you still have this
Speaker 2: long road in front of you. But in terms of
Speaker 2: the other stuff that you do, singer and an actress,
Speaker 2: doing movies multiple subsequent I don't know how many series
Speaker 2: have you done.
Speaker 3: I probably I did.
Speaker 4: Another one that went pretty years called Charmed I was Armed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So that's I mean, you have this like
Speaker 3: kind of ongoing career. How do you well.
Speaker 2: First off, in your heart, do you still like the
Speaker 2: acting part of it or is it a way to
Speaker 2: just be continued to be in people's awareness so that
Speaker 2: you can do the activisim?
Speaker 5: I do think that there is an element of one
Speaker 5: feeding the other that I'm very aware of, because acting
Speaker 5: is not what is fulfilling to men.
Speaker 3: It's not okay and I.
Speaker 4: Think the reason being is not. It's not because oh
Speaker 4: I've been doing it for so long.
Speaker 2: It's like, what for me, you can take that part
Speaker 2: out if there's any casting director, No, I don't.
Speaker 4: Mean they all know.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 4: For me, it's just, you know, I've worked really hard
Speaker 4: to attempt to heal wounds inside of my being. So
Speaker 4: to go in and have to like.
Speaker 5: Pickt those scars, that's interesting. Like I fought really hard
Speaker 5: to be the person I am today, and to have
Speaker 5: to go back and like dredge up some kind of
Speaker 5: heartache or trauma or pain for the sake of someone
Speaker 5: else's vision and script and art just doesn't make a
Speaker 5: whole lot of sense.
Speaker 4: For me at this point.
Speaker 2: That's so interesting because I actually have I mean, this
Speaker 2: is not a judgment for me. It's sort of the
Speaker 2: opposite in that when I do that, I find it
Speaker 2: very therapeutic, you know, when I'm gods, when I'm able
Speaker 2: to go to dark places, when I'm able to play
Speaker 2: characters that act out on horrible impulses, it I come
Speaker 2: away from it with a greater sort of understanding myself.
Speaker 5: Do you do like closure exercises? I'm not sure what
Speaker 5: that is, So like what I just do it. Like
Speaker 5: I did a movie called Brazen for Netflix, and my
Speaker 5: sister dies on page six. So the whole movie, I'm
Speaker 5: like trying to find the killer and crying and the
Speaker 5: whole thing. And this was the first first of all
Speaker 5: we used an intimacy coordinator, not only for the love
Speaker 5: scenes but also for the emotional.
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, great idea, because a lot of times, well we've
Speaker 2: we've come around to then maybe people that are listening
Speaker 2: don't even realize what intimacy coordinator, but it is what
Speaker 2: it sounds like.
Speaker 3: If you're in a situation where you.
Speaker 2: Have to be intimate with another actor, whether it's I
Speaker 2: mean anything from a you know, a kiss or an
Speaker 2: embrace to a hardcore sex scene, there's somebody that's going
Speaker 2: to kind of walk everybody through that and discuss and
Speaker 2: keep people feeling safe. But a lot of times, and
Speaker 2: we have stuntmen and stunt coordinators that are supposed to
Speaker 2: coordinate actions so that you.
Speaker 3: Don't get hurt hurt, but a lot of.
Speaker 2: Times there my daughter recently did a film where she
Speaker 2: was just from in the entire movie, you know, in
Speaker 2: terror or emotional crime, and it took a really big
Speaker 2: toll on her and.
Speaker 4: Your body doesn't know you're faking it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, your body doesn't know you're faking it. Right.
Speaker 5: So what this intimacy coordinator did and what I started
Speaker 5: working with my therapist after, is you know, allowing yourself say,
Speaker 5: you know, whether it be with the other actor, the
Speaker 5: scene partner, or the director, I'm going to go to
Speaker 5: a place and I hope you make me feel safe
Speaker 5: in this place, and you're sort of opening yourself up
Speaker 5: to the vulnerability that it's going to take to do
Speaker 5: the scene.
Speaker 4: But then you also.
Speaker 3: Close it off, close it off after the.
Speaker 5: Scene, you say, Okay, thank you for making me feel safe. Body,
Speaker 5: I'm letting that go. And whether that be you know,
Speaker 5: sometimes it's a smell for me, Like I'll say to myself,
Speaker 5: when I smell the lavender that's on my wrist, I'm
Speaker 5: going to know it's over. But just closing off that
Speaker 5: emotion so I'm not bringing it at home, so I'm
Speaker 5: not like a festering wound.
Speaker 3: And that's very that's cool.
Speaker 2: I got another word for it. It's called leaving your work
Speaker 2: at the office. I mean, yes, yes, but I have to.
Speaker 4: Say work is funky, it is, it's weird.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's weird. I love it still, I mean,
Speaker 3: I really do.
Speaker 2: But but you know, the thing is is that what
Speaker 2: I find is in the course of the shooting of
Speaker 2: whatever it is, I can't turn it on and off
Speaker 2: like a tap.
Speaker 3: I'm good at saying, Okay, honey.
Speaker 2: I'm home, how was your day, But it's always kind
Speaker 2: of there, you know what I mean, underneath the surface.
Speaker 2: When they say wrap on the whole movie, I'm done,
Speaker 2: I say goodbye to that guy.
Speaker 3: I don't want to see him. I don't want to
Speaker 3: see the clothes. Like people take their clothes. It's like the.
Speaker 4: Worst thing I've ever it.
Speaker 5: Took one coat home and I actually still wear it
Speaker 5: because it's like the greatest coat in the world.
Speaker 4: But otherwise I agree with you.
Speaker 2: But maybe maybe the character was in it was in
Speaker 2: a happy place when you wore that coat.
Speaker 3: Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, So I mean that's that's the difference.
Speaker 5: But I also think that there's a lot of actors
Speaker 5: who you know, are of a caliber that I will
Speaker 5: never be, which I'm totally fine with that.
Speaker 4: Do have what you're talking about.
Speaker 5: Which is this natural instinct to go to use the
Speaker 5: places that already exist in them and kind of get
Speaker 5: off on it, like kind of love that part of it.
Speaker 5: And then there's actors that I know who go to
Speaker 5: that place, can't shake it, and I mean, I'm sure
Speaker 5: you know then go into a massive depression for six
Speaker 5: months or a year afterwards.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, listen to Nana.
Speaker 2: I've been at that a long time, and there's I've
Speaker 2: seen a lot of people fall off. You fall off
Speaker 2: you you you, you know, somehow implode or or drugs
Speaker 2: or alcohol or or whatever it happens to be that
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 3: You know, if if I don't want to turn this
Speaker 3: into a poor us, it's so hard for us acts.
Speaker 2: But but you know there there, it does have its challenges,
Speaker 2: but you get such joy.
Speaker 3: Well, well you tell me, do you get.
Speaker 2: Joy from the activism and is it constantly feeding you
Speaker 2: in the way that acting does not.
Speaker 5: Yes, I do think that there's something incredibly fulfilling for me.
Speaker 5: I'm also able to understand that it's not for everybody,
Speaker 5: but for me in particular, it has given my life,
Speaker 5: meaning that you know, I'm a girl from Brooklyn. The
Speaker 5: fact that I'm an ambassador for UNICEF is mind boggling
Speaker 5: to me. And I take the responsibility very seriously. But
Speaker 5: also it's also really frustrating, right, because you're allowing yourself
Speaker 5: to be vulnerable and to be impacted by these experiences.
Speaker 5: And that's what I think makes someone a powerful activist,
Speaker 5: is that you are boots on the ground, you are
Speaker 5: putting yourself, you are getting arrested, you are putting yourself,
Speaker 5: you know, on the protest line. But it's also really
Speaker 5: frustrating because there are very few wins, and I think
Speaker 5: I think the lesson has been is the the journey
Speaker 5: is the win, right.
Speaker 4: But I look at people like Alice Paul, who wrote
Speaker 4: the Equal.
Speaker 5: Rights Amendment in nineteen twenty died. You know, after Row
Speaker 5: never saw the era implemented into our constitution. I'm still
Speaker 5: fighting for what with those sixteen or sixteen words are
Speaker 5: to be put in our constitution. Women have no protection
Speaker 5: in our constitution other than the nineteenth Amendment, which is
Speaker 5: the freedom to vote. So what that teaches me is like,
Speaker 5: I can't be attached to the outcome because I might
Speaker 5: not see it in my lifetime.
Speaker 3: So you have to be attached to the process.
Speaker 5: You have to love the process, and you have to
Speaker 5: be okay with incremental wins.
Speaker 4: That's really hard, really hard. It's really hard, really hard.
Speaker 2: Well, I would also think that it's at some point
Speaker 2: when you spend that much of your time focused on
Speaker 2: the ills of the world of the you know, the
Speaker 2: lack of justice or you know, equality, or that it
Speaker 2: starts to just become I don't know, just kind of
Speaker 2: overwhelming after a while. I would think that when you
Speaker 2: spend that much of your day really focused on it.
Speaker 5: But what's interesting is is that the vastness of the
Speaker 5: problem or problems that humanity faces for me personally, has
Speaker 5: kind of made my world smaller interesting. It's made my like, well,
Speaker 5: I have to do what I can and the acceptance
Speaker 5: of not being able to change everything, as heartbreaking as
Speaker 5: that can be sometimes and what I've seen is really
Speaker 5: really traumatic.
Speaker 4: But it's like I was listening to Richard Branson.
Speaker 5: Speak once and he said the greatest thing, which is
Speaker 5: that it just clicked in my head where I was like,
Speaker 5: that's what it feels like. Everything is so big, it
Speaker 5: feels like problems are so enormous and insurmountable. But if
Speaker 5: we all focus on our own circles, then eventually all.
Speaker 4: The circles hopefully will overlap and the world will be
Speaker 4: a better place.
Speaker 5: I love that and I love it too, and it's
Speaker 5: part of you know, when I went to Egypt with
Speaker 5: with UNSEF, it's part of what I loved so much
Speaker 5: about the Dawi program because Dawi the word means a
Speaker 5: voice that resonates.
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Speaker 2: We have Dina Heikeel here from Dowie Girls Empowerment Initiative
Speaker 2: in Egypt, which is part of uniceffor or it's a it's.
Speaker 5: A program that UNSEF is partners on that it funds,
Speaker 5: and Dina is just you know, as being an ambassador
Speaker 5: for UNISEF is amazing. But the unsung heroes are the people,
Speaker 5: and there's thousands of them throughout the world that are
Speaker 5: UNICEF field officers that are really giving up their entire
Speaker 5: lives to make a better world for the children of
Speaker 5: the world.
Speaker 3: Dina, can we bring you on?
Speaker 2: Elis was just going off about all the great work
Speaker 2: that you do. Tell me how did you get involved
Speaker 2: with UNSEF and specifically with diwy.
Speaker 7: So Basically, I've been working in development for probably the
Speaker 7: past eighteen years at Vacracy Gender and so I got
Speaker 7: into UNISEFF and and gender really was my passion, and
Speaker 7: I had the amazing opportunity to be part of this
Speaker 7: girl's Empartment program from the very beginning and designing it
Speaker 7: with different partners. But the true beauty behind it really
Speaker 7: was that we didn't just sit in an office and
Speaker 7: decide what to do. We actually went to the field.
Speaker 7: We designed it with the girls, for the girls, by
Speaker 7: the girls, and we got the real voices and what
Speaker 7: their needs are, and we kind of try to design
Speaker 7: something that is substantial to them more than anything, and
Speaker 7: we try to get everyone involved, I mean institutions, governments,
Speaker 7: civil society, organizations, communities, and it really was about how
Speaker 7: do we create this movement, this echoed is something that
Speaker 7: resonates with everyone. To have a program for girls where girls. Really,
Speaker 7: the core of it is about choices, girls being able
Speaker 7: to make these choices based on informed decisions, having access
Speaker 7: to the right information, the right services, and really being
Speaker 7: able to voice their opinions, to speak up, but in
Speaker 7: a safe and supportive environment. So we get the parents involved,
Speaker 7: we get the communities, we even get the decision makers.
Speaker 7: You know, they're just saying that if you don't have
Speaker 7: a place on the table, you grab a chair. Those
Speaker 7: girls didn't just grab a chair. They built an entire
Speaker 7: table and we just sat on it. And we try
Speaker 7: to build with them something that is substantial and that
Speaker 7: resounds with what their needs are.
Speaker 5: And just to give some context, there are many positive
Speaker 5: trends that are going on in Egypt right now, but
Speaker 5: I do want to just say girls in Egypt, so
Speaker 5: just to really give you context of how amazing Dinas
Speaker 5: were is girls in Egypt are less likely to achieve
Speaker 5: their full potential. For example, there are there are still
Speaker 5: harmful practices such as female genital mutilation and child marriage,
Speaker 5: and girls are five times more likely than boys to
Speaker 5: be unemployed or receive any kind of education or training.
Speaker 4: So you know, when you listen to Dina speak and
Speaker 4: she speaks so.
Speaker 5: Eloquently about this program that she created that is literally
Speaker 5: hundreds of hundreds of thousands of girls amazing, and millions
Speaker 5: of people from the online work are being reached. You
Speaker 5: have to understand that this is a major, big deal.
Speaker 4: This is not like, you know what, what we would.
Speaker 5: Consider equity and empowerment, gender equity and empowerment in the
Speaker 5: United States. This is there are barbaric practices that are
Speaker 5: still going on in rural Egypt that needs to stop.
Speaker 5: And what they do in Dina's program, just to give
Speaker 5: you specifics, there's these sharing circles where girls sit around
Speaker 5: in a circle and a facilitator will read a story
Speaker 5: about let's say, female genital mutilation, and the girls will
Speaker 5: talk about how they feel, what they would do to
Speaker 5: protect each other, how they would speak to their family
Speaker 5: if it's something that they don't want, and it is
Speaker 5: so incredibly powerful. And then you go next door in
Speaker 5: the room right next door, and there's a sharing circle of.
Speaker 4: All the boys.
Speaker 3: Oh, I was going to ask about that, which I.
Speaker 5: Find maybe even more important, where the boys are talking
Speaker 5: about how they could be more supportive to the girls
Speaker 5: and their family, to their sisters.
Speaker 2: Is it hard Dina to get parents to allow young
Speaker 2: people to participate in this when there is such a
Speaker 2: history of just you know, this this point of view.
Speaker 7: I mean, the thing is people fear what they don't know,
Speaker 7: and if you go in with the mindset you know
Speaker 7: that you're basically taking their girls away from them and
Speaker 7: telling them what to do and what not to do,
Speaker 7: they will definitely resist. And the beauty of Delwi was
Speaker 7: that the community are part of the process. They're part
Speaker 7: of that journey of change, you know, and whatever happens,
Speaker 7: whatever these norms that may prevail, it's not out of hate,
Speaker 7: you know. It's sometimes parents think that they're doing it
Speaker 7: out of love because they think this is what's best
Speaker 7: for them, and so getting them on board and involving
Speaker 7: them definitely, like Alisa said, the circles are a huge
Speaker 7: breakthrough because the girls find the safe space, but the
Speaker 7: parents also find themselves involved in a dialogue with the
Speaker 7: children later on, so that they also feel they're part
Speaker 7: of it.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 7: By the end of the day, as units have, we
Speaker 7: believe parents do the best that they can possibly do
Speaker 7: for their children. They just sometimes need to know how
Speaker 7: and the training to do so. And navigating through this
Speaker 7: there's so many difficult things out there, and and the
Speaker 7: idea is that we all need to come together and
Speaker 7: power through that We really is about the social movement
Speaker 7: that everyone coming along and and girls will feel empowered
Speaker 7: when they feel that they're not just hurt or listen
Speaker 7: to that they are supported by allies. And whether these
Speaker 7: allies are their own families, their own communities, the government,
Speaker 7: everyone really has a role in this and and and
Speaker 7: that is the powerful message behind it.
Speaker 5: And there are generational conversations literal where the mother will
Speaker 5: facilitator will ask a question like what is the biggest
Speaker 5: hope you have for your daughter? And they will be
Speaker 5: able to and sometimes you know, communicate looking at each
Speaker 5: other in the eyes for the first time, having these
Speaker 5: really deep conversations. And what I think Dina and UNISEF
Speaker 5: we're so smart to do is as this process is happening,
Speaker 5: they've educated and empowered members of the DOWI program to
Speaker 5: then be facilitators.
Speaker 3: I got you right.
Speaker 4: So it is sustainable, all right.
Speaker 2: So it's a ripple effect and it keeps spreading. Are
Speaker 2: there any specific stories. I don't want to put you
Speaker 2: on the spot, but that come to mind, Like any
Speaker 2: specific stories you can share about how this affected someone
Speaker 2: a young person.
Speaker 7: I mean absolutely, we have hundreds of stories. Actually, the
Speaker 7: way the slogan of Dewi is your story completes their story.
Speaker 7: The idea that stories can be so relatable to us
Speaker 7: as human beings is actually the core of Dewi. Where
Speaker 7: Egyptians were storytellers from hieroglyphics on the wall, just conversing
Speaker 7: with each other. So we kind of use that as
Speaker 7: a way that people share their own stories and and
Speaker 7: and in a way it resonates with others. It's not
Speaker 7: something completely far away from the communities. And so just
Speaker 7: off the top of my head, the village that actually, Uh,
Speaker 7: Lisa and I visited in Egypt, there were child marriage
Speaker 7: incidents and and and one of the girls, La actually
Speaker 7: stood up to that. She decided that she wants to
Speaker 7: continue her education, and her parents supported her massively. Uh
Speaker 7: And not only l has become a role model for
Speaker 7: other girls, but her parents were actually an inspiration to
Speaker 7: other parents. You know that a girl can achieve so
Speaker 7: much by not going through this horrible crime of child
Speaker 7: marriage and and and while being supported. Ella actually not
Speaker 7: only influenced girls in her communities, but Ella actually was
Speaker 7: one of the Deli ambassadors that stood in front of
Speaker 7: Egypt's first Lady and asked for the country's support to
Speaker 7: Delwi and she got it for her and for all
Speaker 7: the girls in Egypt in a huge I mean I
Speaker 7: got goosebumps just sitting there and watching this, and it
Speaker 7: was absolutely amazing. And it shows that the commitment here
Speaker 7: that yes, UNICEF is definitely supportive, but it really is
Speaker 7: about the girls. It really is about the communities and
Speaker 7: the sustainability. Like Elissa said of this, that they will
Speaker 7: carry this on. They will draw murals on walls with
Speaker 7: girls instead of hiding their faces, and and and the
Speaker 7: institutions of offering the right services, the right information so
Speaker 7: these girls can really thrive and reach the potential.
Speaker 5: So a beautiful part of us sharing circles too is
Speaker 5: they take a piece of yarn and every time they
Speaker 5: speak they wrap it around their arm. But it's all connected,
Speaker 5: and it's to show the connection of the stories. And Dina,
Speaker 5: you'll be happy to know that I was asked to
Speaker 5: go speak at my brother's i mean my son's class
Speaker 5: he's in fifth grade, on immigration, and I actually did
Speaker 5: a Dowie circle with yarn where everyone I asked everyone
Speaker 5: to share their immigration story and everyone was connected. So
Speaker 5: your tools I used in the States, So thank you.
Speaker 2: Tell us about it takes a village, the documentary, It
Speaker 2: takes a village.
Speaker 7: Yes, So I mean the idea of that we used
Speaker 7: to also highlight the positive role models. I mean, we
Speaker 7: understand there may be some setbacks, but we also want
Speaker 7: to show the whole, right, So what we've decided to
Speaker 7: do to kind of highlight these positive role models is
Speaker 7: to actually have a documentary about three girls and their
Speaker 7: families from three different, completely different areas in Egypt, and
Speaker 7: and to kind of show their own journey throughout this
Speaker 7: and how they not only stood against some of these
Speaker 7: norms and practices, but how their families was there to
Speaker 7: support them. And and the three girls are the one
Speaker 7: that actually came from uh Fayum.
Speaker 4: The visit the village, we.
Speaker 7: Visit seme and and her dream was actually to become
Speaker 7: a movie director and no and nod in Arabic means
Speaker 7: light and and she she stood against uh female genital
Speaker 7: mutilation in her own city. And and it kind of
Speaker 7: walks us through the journey, and it shows how amazing
Speaker 7: these girls are. If we just listen to them if
Speaker 7: we give them the space, the amount of courage that
Speaker 7: they have and the confidence. One of the girls, one
Speaker 7: of the mothers of the girls in the movie, was
Speaker 7: so moving. She was saying, you know, when I first
Speaker 7: had I have three girls, and every time I gave
Speaker 7: birth to one of them, people would say, you have
Speaker 7: three girls, you don't have children, basically because you know
Speaker 7: they're they're resonating the value that it needs to be
Speaker 7: a male to to count as a child. And it
Speaker 7: was so heartbreaking for her, and she was speaking so
Speaker 7: wholeheartedly about this. But then she saw her daughter and
Speaker 7: she was directing her own film and gathering the communities,
Speaker 7: and the community was impressed by SAME's film, and the
Speaker 7: mother stood there in the middle of the community and
Speaker 7: she said, we actually, we're so fortunate to capture this
Speaker 7: in the doking. She was like, this is my daughter.
Speaker 7: I'm so proud of my daughter. I am the mother
Speaker 7: of Cemeth. And of course we all burst into tears.
Speaker 7: But the idea was how amazing it is when you
Speaker 7: provide that space, and it's not only about Semet's lives,
Speaker 7: but how many other girls lies can actually be changed,
Speaker 7: how many other parents can look and say, I'm the
Speaker 7: mother of La, I'm the mother of Nourah, I'm the
Speaker 7: father of I'm the brother of And this is the
Speaker 7: kind of a pril effect that we're looking for. Egypt
Speaker 7: is a massive country. We have nineteen million girls under
Speaker 7: the age of twenty. It's huge, and we want to
Speaker 7: reach all of them.
Speaker 3: Great.
Speaker 2: Well, is there a call to action for both of you,
Speaker 2: I mean, tell us the people who are listening to this.
Speaker 3: I'm sure it would be interested.
Speaker 4: Thank you so gry to help for that opportunity.
Speaker 5: I would just ask everyone to go to UNISEFUSA dot
Speaker 5: org slash act now Egypt and you'll find it if
Speaker 5: information on how you can help, not only in a
Speaker 5: SEF but the amazing Dina and her Dowie program.
Speaker 2: Dina, thank you so much for for coming on at
Speaker 2: eight o'clock at night, all the way from Egypt.
Speaker 3: I can't believe that our connection is this good. It's good.
Speaker 3: It actually works. Yeah, yeah, we don't even Yeah.
Speaker 2: I've had much much worse zooms down the street than
Speaker 2: I have, So something is working here. We're really appreciative
Speaker 2: and Alsa, thank you so much for being here, taking
Speaker 2: time out of your busy day. Oh my gosh, you're
Speaker 2: so you're so busy. On top of everything else, you
Speaker 2: have a Guardians of the Galaxy spaceship named after you.
Speaker 3: Is that true?
Speaker 2: True?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you know that that took a lot.
Speaker 5: No, thank you for highlighting Dina's work, because I'm very
Speaker 5: privileged to do what I do. But it's it's Dina,
Speaker 5: it's the it's it's the unsung heroes. It's the grassroots
Speaker 5: organizations that deserve all the credit.
Speaker 4: And I love you very much, Tina, Thank.
Speaker 7: You, thank you. I love you too. Thank you so
Speaker 7: much for having me. And it really, it truly, in
Speaker 7: all sense of the world, picks a village. So it's
Speaker 7: not just me, it's the entire team that's behind this.
Speaker 7: It's you. It's it's you, Alyssa, it's you, Kevin for
Speaker 7: having us. Thank you so so much.
Speaker 3: You heard of folks. It takes a village. Thank you, guys. Hey, guys,
Speaker 3: thanks for listening.
Speaker 2: If you want to learn more about the Dawi initiative
Speaker 2: that UNISEF had to www dot UNISEF dot org slash Egypt,
Speaker 2: you can find the link in.
Speaker 3: Our show notes. And if you.
Speaker 2: Like what you're here, you make sure you subscribe to
Speaker 2: the show and tune in to the rest of our episodes.
Speaker 3: You can find six Degrees with Kevin Bacon on the
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Speaker 3: We'll see you next time.
Speaker 4: He