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Speaker 2: Hello Next Picture Show listeners, here's a friendly reminder that

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Speaker 2: Bonus episode on the sci fi non hit The Creator

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Speaker 4: It's very difficult to keep the line between the.

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Speaker 5: Past and the pass.

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Speaker 6: You believe that someone out of the past can enter

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Speaker 6: and take possession of a living being.

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Speaker 1: We may be through with the past, but the past

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Speaker 1: is not true with us.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Next Picture Show. Movie the Week podcast

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Speaker 2: devoted to a classic film and how it shaped our

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Speaker 2: thoughts on a recent release. I'm Scott Tobias here.

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Speaker 5: With Tasha Robinson and Keith Thups.

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Speaker 2: Genevievekoski has been out for weeks delivering mail on horseback

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Speaker 2: through Apache territory. But we're sure she's doing just fine.

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Speaker 2: That's the gig economy for you, right. It's not enough

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Speaker 2: to be the senior TV e or at Vulture, you

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Speaker 2: also have to deliver mail on horseback through hostile terrain. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: what she's missing out on today is the reopening, the

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Speaker 2: grand reopening of Sweet Emulsion Studios. Ever since the pandemic started,

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Speaker 2: we have done this podcast remotely to Genevieve move to

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Speaker 2: Michigan and then, but now sitting right across from me,

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Speaker 2: it's Tasha Robinson.

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Speaker 3: This is an exciting time.

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Speaker 4: He stopped letting me because you know I can. We're

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Speaker 4: sitting a room full of like bean bags and stuffed

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Speaker 4: animals and things. There's so many things I can throw

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Speaker 4: at him, want to disagree with him about stuff, and

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Speaker 4: normal normally that doesn't happen.

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Speaker 7: Despite living I think twenty minutes away, Scott, I opted

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Speaker 7: not to come up.

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Speaker 3: You did not. You did not.

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Speaker 2: We would have you be here, would have actually spared

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Speaker 2: us a lot of technical difficulties that we just bluffed

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Speaker 2: our way through. So we'll see how this turns out.

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Speaker 2: But it's exciting to have were the whole idea of

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Speaker 2: this podcast. What it started is like, we really should

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Speaker 2: make sure we spend plenty of time together, and then

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Speaker 2: we just went to doing all this remotely. But anyway, Tasha,

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Speaker 2: what are we talking about this week?

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Speaker 4: We're talking about the nineteen fifty Western Broken Arrow, one

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Speaker 4: of the first post war westerns to view Native Americans

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Speaker 4: through a sympathetical lens. James Stewart, a frontiersman who comes

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Speaker 4: to the aid of a wounded fourteen year old Apache

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Speaker 4: boy in Arizona and winds up trying to broker peace

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Speaker 4: agreement between the white prospectors of Tucson and Co Cheese,

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Speaker 4: the leader of the Apaches. He also falls in love

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Speaker 4: with a young Apache girl named Sosire. The film's earnest,

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Speaker 4: if flawed, attempts to up end genre conventions, as well

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Speaker 4: as the cross cultural love story at its center, made

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Speaker 4: it an ideal pairing with the new Martin scorsese epic

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Speaker 4: Killers of the Flower Moon, drawn from David Grant's nonfiction book.

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Speaker 4: Scorsesees film visits Oklahoma in the early nineteen twenties, when

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Speaker 4: the Osage tribe, enriched by the discovery of oil in

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Speaker 4: its territory, is beset by a series of murders. Both

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Speaker 4: films attempt a more progressive understanding of indigenous populations than

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Speaker 4: previous Westerns, but both are also naturally limited by the

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Speaker 4: perspective of white filmmakers.

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Speaker 2: So this week will follow Jimmy Stewart as he tries

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Speaker 2: to brok her a piece between the cowboys and Indians

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Speaker 2: of past Westerns and Broken Arrow. Then we'll revisit a

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Speaker 2: different kind of tension in Osage Territory with Martin scorsesees

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Speaker 2: Killers of the Flower Moon. I'll be back after the break.

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Speaker 6: Doesn't some time.

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Speaker 8: They will never hurt again.

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Speaker 6: I started out of the canyons that were the beginning

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Speaker 6: of Cocheese's country. I never felt so lonely and so

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Speaker 6: dog scared in my life. For three days, I climbed

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Speaker 6: higher into the mountains in which the Apache Stronghold was hidden.

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Speaker 2: The screenwriter Albert Maltz was one of the original Hollywood

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Speaker 2: Ten who, along with writers like Dalton Trombo and Alabassi,

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Speaker 2: openly challenged the legitimacy of the House on American Activities

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Speaker 2: Committee When he was brought before it on October twenty eighth,

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Speaker 2: nineteen forty seven. Maltz was particularly furious at questions from

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Speaker 2: a Mississippi Democrat named John E. Rankin for speaking of

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Speaker 2: the Ku Klux Klan as quote unquote an American institution.

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Speaker 2: Maltz said that he would not be dictated to or

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Speaker 2: intimidated by men to whom the Ku Klux Klan, as

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Speaker 2: a matter of committee record, is an acceptable institution. By

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Speaker 2: the time Maltz's screenplay for Broken Arrow was turned into

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Speaker 2: a movie in nineteen fifty, he was already on the Blacklist,

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Speaker 2: and another MPAA writer, Michael Blankfort, took the credit as

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Speaker 2: a front. In fact, Maltz's name was also taken off

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Speaker 2: the robe three years after that, and he wouldn't be

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Speaker 2: employed under his real name again until the nineteen seventy

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Speaker 2: Clint Eastwood Western Two Mules for Sister Sarah Maltz's discussed

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Speaker 2: at having to answer to a supporter of the KKK

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Speaker 2: squares with the politics of Broken Arrow, which seeks to

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Speaker 2: combat the bigotry and white supremacy that had been blithely

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Speaker 2: accepted as part of the Western genre. The film argues

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Speaker 2: that maybe the Apache have reason to fire on white

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Speaker 2: settlers that crossed into their territory, and they also have

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Speaker 2: reason not to trust that peace can be achieved with

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Speaker 2: a people who views them as savages. A more sympathetic

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Speaker 2: understanding of Native Americans would become more commonplace decades later,

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Speaker 2: but in nineteen fifty, Broken Arrow was treading on politically

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Speaker 2: tenuous ground, especially for a genre that was not exactly

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Speaker 2: understood as liberal minded. But Maltz, in the film's director

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Speaker 2: Delmer Daves, helped the audience find their way through this

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Speaker 2: story by following Jimmy Stewart, that paragon of cinematic decency,

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Speaker 2: through the proverbial gauntlet. Stuart stars as frontiersman Tom Jeffords,

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Speaker 2: who comes across a fourteen year old Apache boy with

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Speaker 2: buckshot wounds in his back. Rather than leave the child

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Speaker 2: to die, Jeffords risks his life to nurse him back

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Speaker 2: to health. The Apaches are perplexed by Jefford's mercy and

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Speaker 2: let him live, but not before he witnesses a horrifying

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Speaker 2: scene with a kill and torture a group of prospectors

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Speaker 2: who enter the same territory. Jeffords is allowed to leave,

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Speaker 2: but with the warning that he's not allowed on Apache

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Speaker 2: land again yet. Jeffords proves to be a bit bullheaded

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Speaker 2: and resisting both the Apache's warnings and the exaggerations about

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Speaker 2: the ambush told by white men back in Tucson, so

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Speaker 2: he decides to try something radical by learning the Apache

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Speaker 2: language and convincing the tribe's leader, co Cheese, to allow

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Speaker 2: mail carriers to pass through Apache territory without drawing fire.

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Speaker 2: It takes a lot of convincing on both sides, but

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Speaker 2: the gambit ends up working, opening up the possibility of

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Speaker 2: an even broader piece. At the same time, Jefford falls

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Speaker 2: in love with Sonceirae, an Apache girl of marrying age,

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Speaker 2: and risks a controversial union. One of the fascinating aspects

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Speaker 2: of Broken Arrow is that it's not fully defiant. This

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Speaker 2: is an exciting technicolor Western with lots of adventure and

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Speaker 2: fight sequences, and most of the Apache characters are white

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Speaker 2: actors in redface, with Jeff Chandler as co Cheese and

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Speaker 2: Deborah Paget as Sonchire. Paget was only sixteen at the

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Speaker 2: time and Stuart was forty two. Incidentally, one of the

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Speaker 2: few non white performers in the film was a Canadian

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Speaker 2: mohawk named Jay Silverheels, who was cast as Geronimo, who

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Speaker 2: happens to be one of the Apaches who balks at

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Speaker 2: co Cheese trying to arrange a piece arrangement with Jeffords.

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Speaker 2: In a way, the casting of silver Heels, an actual

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Speaker 2: Indigenous person as a warrior who rejects piece with the

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Speaker 2: white settlers is as troubling as the red face used

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Speaker 2: for the actors played by Coaches and Suncirae, the heroes

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Speaker 2: of this story. There's a both sideism at play and

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Speaker 2: Broken Arrow, where APACHE defectors like Geronimo are put on

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Speaker 2: equal footing with the racist white gun slingers. In Tucson

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Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty there appears to have been more than

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Speaker 2: of a need to signal to the audience that there's

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Speaker 2: no wrong party here except those scoundrels who disrupt the piece. Still,

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Speaker 2: like good old Tom Jeffords, Broken Arrow is doing the

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Speaker 2: difficult work of trying to reshape an impression of Native

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Speaker 2: Americans that have been calcified by the Western genre for years.

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Speaker 2: When the movies have told you that the cowboys are

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Speaker 2: the good guys and the Indians are the bad guys,

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Speaker 2: it's going to take more than one movie to change

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Speaker 2: your mind. We'll talk about it after the break. What

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Speaker 6: My mother is cry, he said, Hane.

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Speaker 3: It never struck me.

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Speaker 6: Then an Apache woman would cry over and shown like

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Speaker 6: any other woman. Apaches are wild animals. We all said,

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Speaker 6: do you pray to killer of enemies? Not even to

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Speaker 6: lifegiver the ones up there? Oh, I alway have another name.

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Speaker 6: Pat's pray for all white men to die. But now

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Speaker 6: I pray to keep you safe. At sunset last night,

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Speaker 6: I threw pollen to the four winds for you.

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Speaker 3: I'm hig's boy.

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Speaker 6: This is very big against headache and sickness. Now it

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Speaker 6: is yours.

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Speaker 2: So Broken Arrow is fascinating as a historical moment in

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Speaker 2: the movies. As I talk about it in the keynote,

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Speaker 2: and we'll talk about here. I'm curious to see how

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Speaker 2: it holds up to you as an actual movie. Were

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Speaker 2: you compelled by it?

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Speaker 4: I mean I found it a little stiff. It's certainly

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Speaker 4: historically fascinating for what it's doing, what it's conveying, how

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Speaker 4: it's doing it. By comparison with a lot of the

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Speaker 4: classic westerns I've seen, you know, if you've seen something

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Speaker 4: like The Searchers and you compare it to this, this

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Speaker 4: certainly comes across as a much more progressive, accessible version

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Speaker 4: of history. And it's certainly one that I personally am

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Speaker 4: more aligned with, but at the same time, as both

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Speaker 4: storytelling and as a Jimmy Stewart feature, I found it

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Speaker 4: a little stiff, a little preachy, maybe a little self righteous,

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Speaker 4: just in a It's very aware of the history that

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Speaker 4: it's trying to countermand and it kind of comes across

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Speaker 4: as a bit of a preachy lesson. I'm also super

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Speaker 4: not down with forty two year old Jimmy Stewart romancing

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Speaker 4: a seventeen year old girl in a love at first

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Speaker 4: sight kind of situation. I really like his performance, and

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Speaker 4: I think there are some incredibly well done set pieces

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Speaker 4: in this There are some really good both like action

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Speaker 4: and personal scenes, and I mean the cinematography. There's a

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Speaker 4: shot where the young lovers, one of whom is forty

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Speaker 4: two years old and the other one is seventeen years old,

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Speaker 4: lie down together by the side of a lake below

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Speaker 4: the mountains. That's just you know, Gabe Worthy. So there's

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Speaker 4: a lot to respect and like in this movie. Compelling

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Speaker 4: is not the first word that I would choose for it.

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Speaker 3: What do you think of a Keith?

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Speaker 7: I would probably declare it forty fifth best Western ever made.

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Speaker 5: Sandwich between the.

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Speaker 7: Great Train Robbery and The One Eyed Jacks were already

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Speaker 7: a list of that kind for Vulture, as I did.

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Speaker 7: But no, I like this movie. I hear what you're saying, Tasha,

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Speaker 7: but I mean it does have a message across. I

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Speaker 7: think it's sandwiches into a really compelling story. You know,

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Speaker 7: there's a lot obviously you have to take him to

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Speaker 7: the consideration in terms of the cultural climate which it

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Speaker 7: was made, so like, you know, it's extremely progressive in

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Speaker 7: the context of at the times.

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Speaker 5: But a lot of it for me.

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Speaker 7: Is Stuart's performance, and this is taking out Destry Rides again,

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Speaker 7: which is more of a comedy.

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Speaker 5: It's his first.

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Speaker 7: Western, and I really love James Stewart in westerns, one

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Speaker 7: of my favorite actors anyway. But you know, it really

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Speaker 7: is the best, you know, showcase for you know, who

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Speaker 7: he was after the war, which was a different person,

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Speaker 7: but by all reports he did someone who does not

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Speaker 7: talk about his wartime experiences. But you can kind of

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Speaker 7: see in his performance set to that I'm starting with

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Speaker 7: It's a wonderful life, but here it's like someone who's

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Speaker 7: who's just weary of violence and conflict, and you still

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Speaker 7: get like sort of that every man quality to him,

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Speaker 7: but there's there's an edge to it, and and that's

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Speaker 7: you know, I think it's it's a really great you

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Speaker 7: can see it a lot in this I think it's

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Speaker 7: a great performance. And no, I like this movie. And

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Speaker 7: sometimes and you know, when you read dualists like that,

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Speaker 7: you kind of have to take an historical importance into account.

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Speaker 7: And that's certainly historical importance maybe knocks this up the

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Speaker 7: ranks a little bit, although I do I do think

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Speaker 7: it's quite good as a film too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I'm a little bit more. I can

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Speaker 2: see where Tasha is sort of coming from. It is

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Speaker 2: stilted at times. I mean, the relationship between Jeffers and

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Speaker 2: son Chira is not not the not the greatest thing

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Speaker 2: about the movie, but it is It's quite beautiful to

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Speaker 2: look at as a technicolor.

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Speaker 3: The sequences.

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Speaker 2: I think it really is trying to do a difficult thing,

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Speaker 2: which is kind of bringing this sort of more progressive understanding,

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Speaker 2: you know, of the apache, but also sort of delivering

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Speaker 2: the goods as a Western I think it's the goods

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Speaker 2: delivering is there. It's it's the It's very exciting in

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Speaker 2: that respect. I think I think it kind of you

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Speaker 2: if you're the type of person in nineteen fifty who

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Speaker 2: was going out to see, you know, a shoot him up,

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Speaker 2: I think you would get feel like you got your

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Speaker 2: money's worth on this. And because it because it's very

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Speaker 2: well filmed, it's not it's not distilted in that respect,

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Speaker 2: and I just find it. I did find though, just

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Speaker 2: the way it negotiated this the politics to be fascinating

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Speaker 2: and intention building in itself of just like how do

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Speaker 2: you how do you go about it? What are the

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Speaker 2: mechanics of the film? And I think I think the

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Speaker 2: way you see everything unfold through Jimmy Stewart and the

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Speaker 2: decisions that he makes and the argument. You know, I

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Speaker 2: feel like the film is able to align itself so

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Speaker 2: well with Jeffers and so well with Jimmy Stewart's performance

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Speaker 2: that it sells you on the argument that it's trying

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Speaker 2: to make. And for that I thought there was a

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Speaker 2: lot to appreciate. I was really quite riveted by the

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Speaker 2: ninety minutes or so that it took to watch this movie.

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Speaker 2: My interest did not flag. I will say, so, you know,

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Speaker 2: is it one of the greatest films ever made, one

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Speaker 2: of the greatest westerns that I'll leave that to Keith

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Speaker 2: to the side, but I thought it was I was

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Speaker 2: impressed and kind of excited that we ended up choosing

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Speaker 2: this one, because we certainly had some other things that

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Speaker 2: we're batting around for this pairing. This is a film

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Speaker 2: that is engineered from the beginning really to make audiences

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Speaker 2: rethink their assumptions about the Western genre, at least ideas

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Speaker 2: that have been sort of ingrained into them by watching westerns.

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Speaker 3: How does it go about doing that?

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Speaker 2: And I guess that is kind of where the significance

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Speaker 2: of Jimmy Stewart cast and the lead role really matters.

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Speaker 4: I feel like one of the big ones. I mean,

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Speaker 4: there's a lot going on here, but one of the

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Speaker 4: things that struck me most was the fact that the

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Speaker 4: Natives are given more visible civilization than we normally get

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Speaker 4: in Cowboys and Indians Western. The time that we spend

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Speaker 4: on like Native ritual basically the apache ritual of marriage,

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Speaker 4: the patrie ritual of the dance they do before the

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Speaker 4: coming of age ceremony of this seventeen year old girl

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Speaker 4: who's about to get handed to forty two year old

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Speaker 4: Jimmy Stewart, like all of these No, I'm just going

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Speaker 4: to keep bringing it up, Scott, because the boy it

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Speaker 4: feels weird. There was a real sense with that first dance,

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Speaker 4: in particular for me, of potential cultural preservation going on here.

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Speaker 4: And we'll get to Killers of the Flower Moon, but

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Speaker 4: there's a dance sequence in that that similarly feels like,

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Speaker 4: you know, let's get this on film for future generations,

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Speaker 4: and you know, you can talk all day about like, oh,

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Speaker 4: this makes natives seem more you know, noble than other

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Speaker 4: movies are more generous or more divided in an interesting way,

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Speaker 4: you know, politically divided as opposed to samey and uniform

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Speaker 4: and heterogeneous. But for me, one of the big differences

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Speaker 4: was just like, let's actually spend time with the politics

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Speaker 4: and the home lives and the social lives and the

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Speaker 4: traditions of the natives in a way that doesn't seem

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Speaker 4: exotifying or like outsider ish. It's we have Jeffords as

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Speaker 4: very much an outsider who's experiencing these things all for

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Speaker 4: the first time. But I just don't think that our

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Speaker 4: eyes are presented as his eyes, Like we're not presented

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Speaker 4: these things as look at the spectacle like of these

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Speaker 4: exotic people doing their exotic things. It's like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 4: now it's time to do the dance. We're not going

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Speaker 4: to explain this to you in great detail. This is

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Speaker 4: just what our lives are like. This is just how

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Speaker 4: we present things. And like all the little bits of

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Speaker 4: culture and tradition that we get I found very interesting, which.

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Speaker 5: Doesn't mean it's accurate though, Oh.

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Speaker 9: Sure, for sure.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I certainly don't think that they had like a

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Speaker 4: big council of actual apaches like brought in as cultural

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Speaker 4: consultants the way modern movies very often do. But even

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Speaker 4: the sense that you know that these aren't like noble

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Speaker 4: primitives who have no civilization of their own, just things

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Speaker 4: that they've stole from the white man in murder like

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Speaker 4: seems like certainly more than we get in the searchers.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a good point about the fact that

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Speaker 2: it establishes that this is their home. They are not

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Speaker 2: just a wild people who are ambushing settlers. This is like,

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Speaker 2: you know, we have to think about the fact that

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Speaker 2: they that they're rooted here, that they live here, that

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Speaker 2: they have homes, they have rituals. Those rituals are you know,

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Speaker 2: benign as well, and something kind of worth exploring and respecting.

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Speaker 2: And then I think I think, you know, when you

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Speaker 2: go back to the beginning of the film, it's just,

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Speaker 2: you know, you're presented. Jeffers is presented with this situation

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Speaker 2: which anybody could identify with, which is this young boy,

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Speaker 2: this fourteen year old I think, apatche boy. He's been

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Speaker 2: wounded with buckshot. He's not really going to be any

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Speaker 2: kind of threat to Jeffrey, and so the choice becomes

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Speaker 2: a little bit, you know, the good thing to do,

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Speaker 2: the decent thing to do, is to help him. But

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Speaker 2: one of the things I found really interesting about the

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Speaker 2: movie and the way it kind of challenges us in

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Speaker 2: a way that I wouldn't have expected it was what

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Speaker 2: happens next, you know, the fact that not only Jefference

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Speaker 2: is spared, but he also has to bear witness to

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Speaker 2: this pretty startling scene.

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Speaker 3: Where prospectors kind of come through and.

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Speaker 2: He watches watches them get killed and tortured, and then

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Speaker 2: he sent away, And I mean, it's you know, I

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Speaker 2: think we then he can kind of understand the difference.

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Speaker 2: He can kind of like think about why he was

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Speaker 2: let go and why they weren't, and that alters his

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Speaker 2: kind of approach to things. But I did appreciate the

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Speaker 2: fact that the film was going to have the courage

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Speaker 2: to show this attack happened, and this this torture happened,

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Speaker 2: while also kind of aligning our you know, making certain

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Speaker 2: that were aligned with and understanding the motives of the apache.

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Speaker 4: There's also that very telling moment at the beginning when

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Speaker 4: he's talking to the boy that he's saved and the

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Speaker 4: boy says, you know, he's out on his manhood ritual,

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Speaker 4: but his mother is going to cry out of fear

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Speaker 4: that he's died out in the woods on his own.

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Speaker 4: And Jeffers has to sit with that and is like,

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Speaker 4: it never occurred to me that an Indian mother would

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Speaker 4: cry for her Indian boy. And that's one of the

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Speaker 4: things I'm talking about that feels very stilted. It's preachy,

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Speaker 4: it's aimed directly at the audience. It's kind of a Hey,

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Speaker 4: remember those like four hundred exciting shoot him ups that

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Speaker 4: you've seen in the theater so far. That's like why

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Speaker 4: you come to Cowboy and Indian movies. Everybody that you

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Speaker 4: just saw, like gunned down in a heroic like blaze

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Speaker 4: of Cowboy Glory had a mother at home that was sad,

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Speaker 4: and it feels like a little much. But it's also

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Speaker 4: it's just an important moment of you know, a white

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Speaker 4: dude waking up to basic empathy, to a basic understanding

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Speaker 4: that these people who have been vilified, that he's been

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Speaker 4: taught to see in a certain way are also human.

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Speaker 4: One of the things I really like about this film is.

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Speaker 9: Though that cuts both ways.

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Speaker 4: You tapped into something earlier about how they're they're presented

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Speaker 4: as you know they're they're not being presented as you know,

400
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Speaker 4: just thieves who want stuff off the white man or whatever.

401
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Speaker 4: But we are seeing a raider warrior culture and the

402
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Speaker 4: fact that the when the big split happens, it's because

403
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Speaker 4: some of the chiefs are like, how are we supposed

404
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Speaker 4: to continue on if we can't go steal like guns

405
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Speaker 4: and horses from Mexicans, Like this is part of our

406
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Speaker 4: longstanding tribal culture. We're a raiding culture, and we can't

407
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Speaker 4: have the white man telling us we can't go do

408
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Speaker 4: that anymore. We need stuff. We also get to see

409
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Speaker 4: them just super like gleeful at like running off with

410
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Speaker 4: entire wagons of things, like it's certainly.

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Speaker 9: Clear that.

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Speaker 4: You know these are not some kind of like inherently

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Speaker 4: peaceable people in a way that doesn't vibe with what

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Speaker 4: we know about basic human nature. There's greed on both sides,

415
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Speaker 4: there's flaws on both sides. I think you're exactly right

416
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Speaker 4: about everything you said in the keynote about the problematic

417
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Speaker 4: both sides is.

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Speaker 9: Of the movie.

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Speaker 4: But at the same time, I do like that there's

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Speaker 4: more of a nuance there in terms of what the

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Speaker 4: natives want and in terms of what the natives culture demands.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: I mean, to me, for all the stereotypes and you know,

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Speaker 7: the whole apache wedding blessing has taken on another life

425
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Speaker 7: of its own is sort of a way to that's

426
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Speaker 7: kind of spread some some stereotypes itself. And the red face,

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Speaker 7: which I sure we'll get into. It's like the main

428
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Speaker 7: thing for this to me, this movie is it just

429
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Speaker 7: invests in all the characters on both sides with full humanity.

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Speaker 7: I mean, these are these are all, you know, fully human, flawed,

431
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Speaker 7: interesting characters, and that's you know, it's you don't want

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Speaker 7: to say this was like the movie that did that,

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Speaker 7: because there were other this was one of several films

434
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 7: to kind of move in that direction, but it's it's

435
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:11,160
Speaker 7: a big step.

436
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean, and sometimes those big steps are

437
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,959
Speaker 2: you know, can be a little bit awkward. I mean

438
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 2: you think about you think about like those.

439
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 9: First Guess Who's Coming to Dinner comes to mind, right.

440
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 2: Or those first movies to kind of get kind of

441
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,640
Speaker 2: tiptoe into the into the into the AIDS epidemic, and

442
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 2: and how all that, how that got treated, everything was

443
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 2: a little bit still did it again the word or

444
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 2: quaint or two.

445
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 4: I feel like all of these movies are are making

446
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 4: like brave narrative choices in kind of cautious ways, right,

447
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 4: And like when I think about Guess Who's Coming to Dinner,

448
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 4: it's it's like the Sydney Partier's character in that movie

449
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,640
Speaker 4: has to be the perfect man.

450
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 9: He has to be.

451
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 4: Set up as just completely unassailable in every way, and

452
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 4: that makes him a little inhuman, and that makes the

453
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 4: movie a little stilted. But at the same time, the

454
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 4: complexity of what's being navigated there like makes that kind

455
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 4: of caution necessary. And I see a similar kind of

456
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 4: caution here. That's where like a little bit of the

457
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 4: preachiness comes in. But when you're trying to like push

458
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 4: an idea, that's sort of a thing that happens.

459
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 2: So this will be This would be a bit long winded,

460
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 2: but I wanted to talk about sort of how we

461
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 2: processed or how you all process the use of red

462
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 2: face in the movie, because of course it's not it's

463
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 2: not something you would accept today. But of course we're

464
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 2: not far from Johnny Depp playing Tante when the lone

465
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 2: range of the most canceled.

466
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 3: Film of all time.

467
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 2: And and uh and but but I did did you

468
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 2: take it significant as significant that that an indigenous actor

469
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 2: was cast to play Geronimo here, but that white actors

470
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 2: played more sympathetic characters like like coaches and soire That's not.

471
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 5: A that's not a great look.

472
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 7: I guess it's good to gonna have Drey silver Hills

473
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 7: in it, but but to have him as not the

474
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 7: bad guy exactly but certainly the most untamable of all

475
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 7: the native characters is a little, a little questionable.

476
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:10,719
Speaker 4: I feel like this is something where I would need

477
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,479
Speaker 4: a lot more extra textuals to comment on it. I mean,

478
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 4: it's it's possible that the director just didn't feel he

479
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 4: could get a movie made with a lead Native actor

480
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 4: at the time. It's possible that there weren't a whole

481
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 4: lot of Native actors to go around in Hollywood because

482
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 4: there wasn't a lot of call for them, given that

483
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 4: natives in movies tended to be people people of a

484
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 4: wide variety of ethnicities and red face. I believe the

485
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 4: man playing Coaches here is like a Jewish man from

486
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 4: Brooklyn if I remember.

487
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, he's not even her best reporting actor for this.

488
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 7: He actually played Coaches and two other movies after this,

489
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 7: including What I've Always wanted to see Douglas Cirquestern starring

490
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 7: Rock Hudson as not Native American actor of Rock Hodson

491
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 7: as Taza, son of Cochies' his the name of the film.

492
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,719
Speaker 5: And Jeff Chandler reprises his role as Coaches in that

493
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 5: as well.

494
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 4: Goodness, Yeah, I mean, there were just there. There were

495
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 4: a lot of extra textuals that would have been going

496
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 4: on at the time that may have heavily informed this.

497
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 4: I knew an actor in college who went on to

498
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 4: become a movie and TV actor who was a black man,

499
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 4: who just absolutely refused to play characters who were slaves

500
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 4: or who he considered to be like Uncle Thomash characters

501
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 4: like I mean, it's entirely possible that Jay silver Hills

502
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 4: didn't want to play a character that was like giving

503
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 4: into the inevitably going to be betrayed treaty of the

504
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,959
Speaker 4: white man. Like there are there are a lot of

505
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 4: possibilities here that like I basically just don't want to

506
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 4: judge them until we know more about like the historical

507
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 4: energy going on here.

508
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: Okay, I mean that that makes sense. So I think

509
00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 2: just as it plays, though it seems pointed, just has it,

510
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 2: just as it works as a movie because it is

511
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 2: somewhat could you know, the actors who are using red

512
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 2: face are pretty conspicuously doing so.

513
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 3: Here. But I mean, how did that work for you?

514
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, obviously you.

515
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: Kind of just sort of take it as Hey, that's

516
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 2: this is nineteen fifty, this is what this is what

517
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: was done.

518
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 3: But how did that affect the way the movie worked

519
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 3: on you? I guess?

520
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: And those performances worked on you, because, as Keith mentioned,

521
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: Jeff Chandler.

522
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 3: Was nominated for Best Supporting Actors for this.

523
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 4: I honestly wonder if they wouldn't have run into legal

524
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 4: issues with the scenes with Sincere if she'd been played

525
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 4: by a Native actress at that point, you know, because

526
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 4: of the interracial relationship laws at the time. I think

527
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 4: it probably would have been scandalous. It was what it.

528
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 7: Wouldn't have played in some parts of the States, I'm sure.

529
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 4: But even more than that, it was like a decade

530
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 4: plus later that William Shatner and Michelle Nichols like kissed

531
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 4: on TV and that a huge scandal.

532
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 3: Wow.

533
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 9: So I mean, you know, think about the time it

534
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 9: was possible that.

535
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 4: They, like for legal reasons, had to have a white

536
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 4: actress in that role in Red Face. I don't know.

537
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't love it, but I feel like

538
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 4: everybody here is doing their best and we have to

539
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 4: take the history into account, and it's still better than

540
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 4: Johnny Depp playing Tonto.

541
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 5: Well.

542
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 7: I mean I think if you put a huge asterisk

543
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 7: next to it, I think Jeff Chand is.

544
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 5: Really good in this movie.

545
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean it's it's a good performance. It's pross

546
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 7: performance that should not exist, but it's a good performance.

547
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 4: I also like the way he's written, like there's just

548
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 4: such a risk with this kind of movie of the

549
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 4: noble stat and the noble savage stereotype, you know, the

550
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 4: guy who's just better than anybody else, And I like

551
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 4: how politically savvy he is. The whole business with the

552
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 4: rocks where he's like, you know, you can be as

553
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 4: happy as you want that this this piece.

554
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 9: Has been broken.

555
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 4: I'll be happy when we go three months and it

556
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 4: hasn't been broken, because I know how the White Man

557
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 4: do with these, with these peace treaties.

558
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 9: Like he he.

559
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 4: Truly does want peace and want the best future for

560
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 4: his people. But he's no dummy. And like his combination

561
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 4: of like measured qualified like willingness to try at peace

562
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 4: and not being a sucker, I think is both something

563
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 4: that I haven't really seen in a Western and again

564
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 4: just makes him. It makes him feel like a much

565
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 4: better leader. You know, we're we're not just told like,

566
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 4: oh this this guy is a great leader. We get

567
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 4: to see him like navigating a battle which he has

568
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 4: planned meticulously and carefully. We find out that he's got

569
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 4: spies in various places or at least some way of

570
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 4: getting crucial information so he can plan his battles better. Like,

571
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 4: he's shown to be a good leader as well as

572
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 4: a wise one, as well as a very savvy one

573
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 4: who is not going to get played for a sucker.

574
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 9: I like that about him.

575
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,479
Speaker 3: It's a really good character. I think it's a good

576
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 3: performance tonight.

577
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: But I think you're right in that there's so much

578
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 2: for him to think about and as the leader of

579
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 2: this tribe, and it's so much for him to suspect,

580
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 2: to be suspicious of and be hopeful for as well too.

581
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 3: I mean, that's what he's he's acting on, you know, he's.

582
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 2: He recognizes in Jefferd's someone who is decent and honorable,

583
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: even as he you know, doesn't have a huge all

584
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 2: that and as much faith that other other white people

585
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: will behave accordingly, you know, I think that's it's one

586
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: of those things where an earnest movie like Broken Arrow

587
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: could have simplified that character, made him just kind of

588
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 2: a flat noble hero.

589
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 3: But I think you give you know, there's just a

590
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 3: lot more here to dig into, a lot of a

591
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 3: lot of thought toward.

592
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,719
Speaker 2: Tensions within the apache, over the over the notion of

593
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: a peace treaty, over the notion of of their lives

594
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 2: potentially being altered by interacting with with with another culture

595
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: in a significant way, you know, having a wedding for one,

596
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 2: So he's got to get navigate that as well as

597
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 2: his own concerns that this could backfire and result in

598
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: a lot more bloodshed and tension and on his side

599
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 2: and on the other side, and so in that sense,

600
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 2: the film feels richer that it might have been.

601
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 4: I guess I'll also say this about j Silver Hills casting.

602
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 4: You might take him as sort of the villain of

603
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 4: the piece, who's also the most prominitive Native actor in

604
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 4: the piece, But he only really comes across as villainous

605
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 4: if you assume that all parties here are playing on

606
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 4: the level, and that you know, historically speaking, this treaty,

607
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 4: this truth did not last long. It's not like he's wrong,

608
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 4: and when he stands up and says, you know, basically,

609
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 4: I don't believe that they're going to honor this. I

610
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 4: don't believe it's going to be carried for the future.

611
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 4: And the treaty itself is too far reaching and is

612
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 4: like controlling us culturally and trying to like back us

613
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 4: off from our rightful way of life, which is not

614
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 4: necessarily hunting the white man. But you know, we've been

615
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 4: going on these raids into Mexico for generations, Like what

616
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 4: right does this treaty have to control us this way?

617
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 4: I think that his concerns are reasonable. I think that

618
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,479
Speaker 4: his choice is reasonable. And you know the fact that

619
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 4: white folks are getting killed in the same movie where

620
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 4: we're watching, like white folks murder seventeen year old girls

621
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 4: is maybe not the most villainous thing. So, you know,

622
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 4: he he's got his Geronimo was right, is what I'm saying.

623
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 4: Hashtag Geronimo is right.

624
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 7: One thing I respect about this movie is it's not

625
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 7: a film about how the at patche need to change

626
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 7: and adopt the white man's ways. I think for all

627
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 7: the you know, sort of squickiness the Jefforts sun Cira

628
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 7: relationship for several reasons. One thing that really struck me

629
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 7: is a part where she mentions she professes not to

630
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 7: know who Eve of Adam and Eve was, and he

631
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 7: just kind of chuckles like it's not like, oh, we'll

632
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 7: have to teach you, or this is something that that

633
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 7: that that you will you will soon, or something like that.

634
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 7: It's just there's nearly no sense of that that he's

635
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 7: he's going to needs to go in and and fix

636
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 7: the fix the apache or assimilate. He's the you know

637
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 7: the word I'm kind of dancing around here.

638
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 6: Yeah.

639
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 4: The film's relationship with Christianity in general is no pun

640
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,959
Speaker 4: intended kind of interesting in that it's It's presented as

641
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 4: a little bit of a touchstone to explain why the

642
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 4: one general behaves the way he does. That line where

643
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 4: Jeffords says, you know, read your Bible for me because

644
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 4: I like the way you read it is pretty ironic,

645
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 4: you know. He's he is basically saying, you're the only

646
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 4: person I've ever met that reads like God loves all

647
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 4: of his children to I mean, like actually all of

648
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 4: his children and not just your people. There's there's a

649
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 4: little bit of a you know, a go forth and

650
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 4: do better for the audience in that, as there is

651
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 4: in various aspects of this movie. But yeah, I don't

652
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 4: think that it's presented as a particularly like christian centric like,

653
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 4: of course, we've got to go like find the savage

654
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 4: and bring them civilization. When somebody actually says, like we're

655
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 4: improving the West, we're bringing you know, guns and shirts

656
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 4: out here, it's presented as what much more of a laughline,

657
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 4: I think than just an assumption that like, of course,

658
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 4: bringing civilization to the West is a good thing.

659
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 7: Generally referring to that the Christian general is General Oliver

660
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 7: Howard did a little research.

661
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 5: He actually that was his nickname.

662
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 7: If you're think of Howard sounds familius because he is

663
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 7: the founder of Howard University and worked with someone mixed

664
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 7: results in the reconstruction, and I think kind of a

665
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 7: matter of him kind of being cut off at the

666
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 7: knee in terms of what he wanted accomplish. But unfortunately,

667
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 7: his rehetor article in the Smithsonian's website about this, his

668
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 7: record with Native Americans is not nearly.

669
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 5: As admirable as his attempts.

670
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 7: To actually implement reconstruction after the Civil War. But I

671
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 7: like that this film is saying this is you know,

672
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 7: presents this as someone who's actually living Christian principles and

673
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 7: not just professing Christian principles, and it's it could come

674
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 7: off as sanctamonious, but it really doesn't. I think it's

675
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 7: actually the way he uses his faith is actually quite

676
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 7: well deployed in.

677
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 4: This withe The scene where he rescues Jeffords from a

678
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 4: lynching also is maybe my favorite sequence in the film.

679
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 4: The gradual ramp up of a bunch of drunken racist

680
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 4: Yeah who's you know, who have only had like one

681
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 4: point of view presented to them, and that that's, you know,

682
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 4: the pinnacle of civilization. Despite the fact that there are

683
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 4: a bunch of drunken reprobates. They gradually talk themselves up

684
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 4: into a frenzy and then attempt a lynching. And the

685
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 4: physicality of that sequence where they muscle Jimmy Stewart out

686
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 4: into the street, it really emphasizes like how tall and

687
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 4: lanky and thin he is as they just fight him

688
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 4: down the street and start trying to shove his head

689
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 4: into a noose. If you watch his face in that sequence,

690
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 4: he's always aware of where the noos is and he

691
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 4: doesn't you know, he doesn't break, he doesn't he doesn't

692
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 4: beg he doesn't yell for mercy or enrage, but he

693
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 4: watches that news throughout that sequence in a way that

694
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 4: just struck me as very real, you know, in a

695
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 4: way that I've seen in a handful of films here

696
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 4: and there. Of all things that Disney movie Tangled comes

697
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 4: to mind of un awareness of, you know, this is

698
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 4: the thing that means death. It's so common in Westerns

699
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 4: for people to whip out guns and point them at

700
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,479
Speaker 4: each other or fire them at each other, and they're

701
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 4: just sort of like icons that nobody really pays attention to.

702
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 4: But as soon as somebody starts tying that noose. His

703
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 4: eyes are on it, and the entire time they're trying

704
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 4: to shove him into it, he's like watching it with

705
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 4: like increased dread. And then the general steps up and

706
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 4: just like cuts through all of that mob mania like

707
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 4: it's butter and is just a much more like immediately

708
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 4: respectable and intimidating figure as a result, which he hasn't

709
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 4: really been up until that moment.

710
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is that is a really good sequence.

711
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 2: So unfortunately, I'm now imagining someone doing an impression of

712
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: Jimmy Stewart if he were to if we were to

713
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 2: be protesting.

714
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 3: Oh no, I can. I'm not going to do it.

715
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: So maybe if maybe if we had Joe Quasala back

716
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 2: on the show, he would he would, he would have

717
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: had some sort of Jimmy Stewart impersonation all lined up,

718
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 2: though I don't know if that's his his stick anyway,

719
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 2: I want to broach before we, you know, pivot out

720
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: of here. I do want to broach the thing that

721
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 2: Tasha doesn't particularly like film, this relationship between forty two

722
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: year old Jimmy Stewart and the seventeen year old playing

723
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: Slan Chira.

724
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 7: Let's set aside the age Scott, sixteen year old, sixteen

725
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 7: year old actor, character actress.

726
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 2: Okay, if we can move past the age difference thing,

727
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: which is so none of us are I'm sure that

728
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: thrilled about the ending of the film is kind of powerful,

729
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 2: and I think the idea of the marriage is so

730
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: as well.

731
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,240
Speaker 3: Am I off on that or were you completely out? Tasha?

732
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 4: I was completely out because the I mean, it's just

733
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 4: it's so common for the people in movies to play

734
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 4: characters much younger than they are, but here it just

735
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,919
Speaker 4: it really plays that this is a girl barely out

736
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 4: of childhood and he is an experienced veteran, like a

737
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 4: man who's already lived several lives. It doesn't feel to

738
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 4: me like one of those relationships where you can pretend

739
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 4: they're at all in a similar phase of life, Like

740
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 4: she's practically a schoolgirl, like in attitude, in knowledge and behavior,

741
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 4: and he's kind of an old man. And you know,

742
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 4: it's as acceptable as this might have been at the time,

743
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 4: in the understanding that men could marry whenever as long

744
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 4: as they could support a wife, and women should probably

745
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 4: be married somewhere between like fifteen and eighteen before they

746
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 4: get like old and tired. It's just I don't like

747
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 4: it conceptually, I don't like it on the screen. But

748
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 4: I also just didn't buy their romance, particularly like, certainly

749
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 4: the idea of the exotic outsider coming in and like

750
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 4: touching this woman's heart. I can understand the idea of

751
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 4: this young, beautiful, innocent flower touching this man's heart. I

752
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 4: can understand, but like watching the two of them on

753
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 4: the screen, I just don't. I don't feel any chemistry

754
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 4: between them. I feel like an adult man kissing a

755
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 4: child and trying to pretend it's love.

756
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 5: I can't. I can't disagree with you. It's a pretty awkward.

757
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 7: It's a pretty awkward element of this film conceptually, though

758
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 7: I do like the marriage idea that feels kind of

759
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 7: necessary to what this film is doing. Just to have

760
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 7: her Margaret felt a little too familiar what happens to

761
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 7: you know, noble minority characters in so many films.

762
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 5: But I don't know.

763
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 7: I mean, you know, it doesn't kill the film by

764
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 7: any stretch, but it is not an uncomfortable pairing.

765
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:37,240
Speaker 2: Well, we will get to explore the mysteries of cross

766
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 2: cultural love in the Scorsese film Killers of the Flower Moon,

767
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: so we'll leave that for now. Now we'll take a

768
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 2: break and come back with some feedback.

769
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 8: Tomorrow morning is knocking stock your fridge? Now, how about

770
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,320
Speaker 8: a creamy mocha Frappe China drink or a sweet vanilla

771
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 8: smooth caramel maybe or white chocolate Mota, whichever you choose,

772
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 8: Delicious coffee waits, find Starbucks Rappacino drinks wherever you buy

773
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 8: your groceries.

774
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: Now it's time for feedback. But before we get to it,

775
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 2: we want to shout out film spotting. The next Picture

776
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 2: Shows Mothership podcast hosted by Adam Kempanar and Josh Larson.

777
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 2: As we record this, Adam and Josh have welcomed our

778
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,240
Speaker 2: friend Matt Singer to talk about his great new Ciskeel

779
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 2: Libert book, Opposable Thumbs In the top five movies ciscl

780
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 2: and Ebert got wrong. I can certainly think of some

781
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 2: films they got wrong. Get blue velvets.

782
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 9: Right, Oh my god, blue velvet.

783
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 3: That was Ebert who was anti blue velvet. Was It's

784
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 3: another one.

785
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 9: I'm deeply stuck on blue velvet.

786
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 7: I mean, obviously, the movie North is very good. I

787
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 7: don't know what Roger was talking about.

788
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 4: Nine and a half weeks. I really remember standing out

789
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 4: for me in terms of.

790
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 9: I love that Onebert Ebert's right up, but he wanted

791
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 9: it to go further.

792
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 4: He thought it was a very erotic and sexy movie,

793
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 4: but he just thought should go further, much like I

794
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 4: remember seeing that movie for the first time and Blue

795
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 4: Velvet for the first time in very close proximity to

796
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 4: each other when I was in my college, like watch

797
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 4: all of the things that people say are good mode,

798
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 4: and then you know, we would watch a movie and

799
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 4: then read what Ebert had to say about it, and

800
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 4: I just remember watching those almost back to back and

801
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 4: reading his reviews in both cases and kind of feeling

802
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,359
Speaker 4: like I knew way too much about his you know,

803
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 4: what went on in his erotic imagination.

804
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 3: He would open up that window now and again.

805
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 5: Be worried about it too. Pastimes.

806
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,720
Speaker 7: It was kind of like, who, well, this poor Jennifer

807
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 7: Jason Lee is being taking advantage of by this film.

808
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 7: It's like, no, I think, you know, I just prove

809
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 7: it out that Jason Jennifer Jason Lee was willing to

810
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 7: go places you know.

811
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:53,479
Speaker 3: Yeah.

812
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 2: Also, I mean God, and especially now in retrospective movie

813
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: like that, you're just like, man, that movie was willing

814
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 2: to go places, that was exciting, that wasn't like something

815
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 2: to be horrified by.

816
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 7: Well being so negative, I still you were someone who

817
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 7: was reviews. I still can read regularly. I love watching

818
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 7: those old segments. So yeah, for sure, don't wait to

819
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 7: read the Matt's book.

820
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 3: It's quite good.

821
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 2: And we had did an interview with him, a long

822
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 2: interview for the reveal as well, so if you want

823
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 2: to check out that interview he gets he gets into

824
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 2: a lot of detail about his process of writing it

825
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 2: and his love of that show, and my obsession with

826
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 2: the fact that they had a skunk, a live skunk

827
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 2: on for a handful of shows as for a Stinker

828
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 2: of the Week, which just blew my mind.

829
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,439
Speaker 3: So opposable. Thumb's great name for a book as well.

830
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 7: We also, you know, we've been remiss and not mentioning

831
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 7: that Josh Lesson has a book out called Fear Not

832
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 7: a Christian Appreciation of Horror Movies. It seems he's very

833
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 7: he's very smart about these topics, and this is it'll

834
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 7: still be spooky season when this comes out.

835
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 5: Doesn't matter. It's definitely.

836
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 7: I haven't read it yet, It's on my to read list,

837
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 7: but it's pretty near the top, so I will get

838
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 7: to that soon. I have every confidence it is a

839
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 7: very good book that we can recommend heartily for sure.

840
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I am so behind in my reading at this point,

841
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 4: with mo Ryan's book and Josh's book, and Matt's book

842
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 4: and all the books that are piling up, But I'm

843
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 4: very excited. Josh just so often surprises me with some

844
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 4: of his insights, some of his takes. He maybe the

845
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 4: current critic I learn most from in terms of seeing

846
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 4: particularly symbolic elements in a movie that I didn't see.

847
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 4: So I'm very excited to read that book.

848
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 3: He's a smart one that Josh. So.

849
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 2: As for feedback, we recently did a sci fi pairing

850
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 2: of Under the Skin in the Hulu film No One

851
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 2: Will Save You. We disagreed sharply in our interpretation of

852
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 2: the end of No One Will Save You, but listener

853
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 2: Sarah has a compelling theory.

854
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 3: Keith, do you want to share this one?

855
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 5: Yes?

856
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 7: Like, whenever we do whatever, we have one of these,

857
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 7: like I forget who wrote in about Asteroid City, Like

858
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 7: basically like, oh yeah, we totally missed something that kind

859
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 7: of unlocks something about what that movie is doing. So

860
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 7: perhaps this will be one of those. Sarah writes, I

861
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,399
Speaker 7: had a different take on brand and no one will

862
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 7: save you. I didn't see someone consumed by grief, even

863
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 7: if she has every right to be. She waves the

864
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 7: neighbors who disdain her and lovingly build a model of

865
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 7: the town that doesn't want her in it. She writes

866
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 7: letters to her best friend as if she is still

867
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 7: alive despite their last moments any in a fight and

868
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,720
Speaker 7: tragic death. She writes that she will never forgive herself,

869
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 7: but when confronted with her younger self, reaches out with compassion.

870
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 7: I don't really know why the aliens chose to let

871
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 7: her live as herself, if that is what happened. Maybe

872
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 7: they saw her as I did, as someone with extremely

873
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 7: strong survival instincts and someone who wants to build a

874
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 7: kind and beautiful world. It was a tragic ending, but

875
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 7: I also felt elated that it wasn't the usual trauma plot.

876
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 7: As for connections to under the skin, it's hard out

877
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 7: there for a single lady, Tasha.

878
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 4: You liked this letter, I think, oh yeah, I really

879
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 4: like this letter a lot. I think the Sarah maybe

880
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 4: like underrating the amount of grief that she's living under

881
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 4: I think that particularly the letters are not necessarily a

882
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 4: sign of hope. Like if you look at the text

883
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 4: she's writing, it's she's saying that she's never going to

884
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 4: forgive herself and that she thinks about it every day.

885
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 4: And I feel like she's writing these letters because no

886
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 4: one will listen to her. You know. The fact that

887
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 4: she's mute throughout almost the entire film indicates to me

888
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 4: that she has been trying to say things, probably to her,

889
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 4: her friend's parents, probably to everybody else in the community,

890
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 4: probably to herself, and nobody's listened. The only people that

891
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 4: listen to her are the aliens, and then the aliens

892
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 4: give her something she wants. So I do think that

893
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 4: the grief is a very important element on all this,

894
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 4: and I think that it explains why the movie has

895
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 4: made the way it is. But I still really like

896
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 4: this insight, particularly the way she continues to respond to people,

897
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 4: the way she makes this version of the town that

898
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 4: is under her control and is something that she can

899
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 4: have access to and when she can't have access to.

900
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 9: The real thing.

901
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 4: I very much like the thoughtfulness that went into this letter,

902
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 4: even if I disagree with small aspects of it.

903
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty good in it, right, you think, Yeah,

904
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 2: this is it's sort of the no One Will Save

905
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:03,720
Speaker 2: You has kind.

906
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 3: Of the AI ending, right of just like aliens kind.

907
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 2: Of seeing this situation, kind of having an understanding of

908
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,359
Speaker 2: this being that is foreign, but they can kind of

909
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,919
Speaker 2: have some sort of empathy for and is producing this

910
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 2: highly artificial scenario in which she can have some kind

911
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 2: of happiness.

912
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 3: I guess.

913
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 7: Oh, if it's like AI, so has a has a

914
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 7: cop out happy ending at Spielberg just lays on the schwaltz.

915
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 3: That's right.

916
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 4: Also, this is the this is the last day of

917
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,399
Speaker 4: her life, Like we see her happily dancing with the

918
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 4: villagers and then the aliens immediately kill her.

919
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 5: Last I'm misread. Go listen to our AI episode.

920
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 2: I don't actually feel that that's off to Brian Duffield

921
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 2: for mimicking the beloved ending of AI official elegence loved here.

922
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 3: I love it. I me too, I know, I know,

923
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 3: I get it.

924
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 2: So going back to our Pablo Lorraine pair of no

925
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 2: and el condy, listener Jamsheed connects the dots on Lorraine's work, Tasha,

926
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 2: can you read those thoughts?

927
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course, uh, Jamsheed writes, Your question about what

928
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 4: No has in common with Lorraine's other films, especially Jackie

929
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 4: got me thinking. I think one way in which the

930
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 4: two films are similar is that they're both concerned with

931
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 4: managing the media treatment of an event with immense political significance,

932
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 4: in the case of No, the referendum, and in the

933
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 4: case of Jackie JFK's memorial service and more generally, the

934
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 4: aftermath of his assassination. Further, both films focus on one

935
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 4: individual's strong belief about how to manage the media moment,

936
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 4: a belief that puts them at odds with everyone around them.

937
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 4: A similar concern with media representation and public perception is

938
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 4: also a through line in Lorraine's Neruda as I remember anyway,

939
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 4: it's been a while since I've seen that, and the

940
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 4: obvious backdrop to Spencer, with the tabloid treatment of Diana

941
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 4: and of Charles hanging like a shadow over the film. Anyway,

942
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 4: I've long thought that questions of media representation and the

943
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 4: public perception of famous figures slash historical moments are an

944
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 4: abiding concern in the Rain's work, and it's a big

945
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 4: part of why I find these films fascinating, very curious,

946
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 4: to hear your thoughts. Meanwhile, I need to watch el Kande.

947
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, watch el Kande kind of blow up the media theory, right,

948
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 2: I mean, there's not a whole lot of that media

949
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 2: perception stuff in el Kande.

950
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 3: Is there?

951
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 9: Kind of exactly?

952
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: I mean historical perception though. I mean there's so much

953
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 2: of this horrible vampire Pinochet seeing his reputation and being

954
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 2: disappointed that it hasn't been revived, and so in the

955
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 2: way reputations are revived as through the media, through public perception,

956
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,720
Speaker 2: and so I guess that does it kind of figures

957
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:39,320
Speaker 2: in a little bit more of a offhand way, whereas

958
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 2: films like No and Jackie and Spencer are dealing with

959
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 2: it a little bit more directly.

960
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 9: I would say that said, I.

961
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 4: Think this is a really great insight that ties a

962
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 4: lot of these things together. I think Pinochet is a

963
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 4: bit of an obsession for Lorraine for very obvious reasons

964
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 4: that can extend outside the media metaphor. The man can

965
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 4: fascinated with more than one thing, and just like tracing

966
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:10,399
Speaker 4: the connection, I think, particularly through this like more realism

967
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 4: focused kind of historical picture versus the glossier and more

968
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 4: experimental spins that he takes on in Jackie and Spencer.

969
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 4: I have not seen Nerido, so I couldn't speak to that.

970
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 4: But like tying all of these four films together, I

971
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 4: think in a very insightful way is a good thing.

972
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 4: I like this letter as well. I like it when

973
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 4: you put.

974
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 3: Me to it. So please keep sending good letters to us. Please.

975
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 2: We always appreciate when our listeners share their thoughts and

976
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 2: their recommendations. If you feel so inclined, we can feature

977
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 2: your response listener on a future episode. To reach us,

978
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 2: you can leave a short voicemail at seven seven three

979
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 2: two three four nine seven three zero or emails at

980
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 2: comments at next Pictureshow dot net. That's it for this

981
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:00,760
Speaker 2: episode or the Next Picture Show. In our next episode,

982
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 2: we'll talk about Martin Scorsese's Killers of the Flower Moon.

983
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 2: Look for that episode next Tuesday on your podcast your choice.

984
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 2: For ad free versions of the podcast and extra content,

985
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 2: find us on Patreon at Patreon dot com slash Next

986
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 2: Picture Show. You can find us at Next Picture Show

987
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 2: dot Net, on Twitter at Next Picture Pod, and at

988
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,919
Speaker 2: blue sky at the Next Picture Show. If you want

989
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 2: to keep track of a new episode's drop until next week.

990
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 2: If any of us ever sent up smoke signals. Please

991
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 2: call the fire department