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Speaker 1: Oh hey, what's up? Another episode of The Hunting Collective,

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite episodes of all time is coming

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Speaker 1: at you right now. We have Doctor Valerious Geist. I'm

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Speaker 1: not really sure. Normally I would describe who the person is,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not really sure how to describe Dr Larious

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Speaker 1: Geist other than he's an amazing man. Uh. He is

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Speaker 1: the original author of the North American Model the Wildlife conservation.

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Speaker 1: He is a zoologist, a wildlife biologist. Um, and he's

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Speaker 1: got more stories to tell than I could recount right now.

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Speaker 1: So please stick around for that. We all said Cren Schneider,

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Speaker 1: our podcast producer, to tell us the amazing tale of

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Speaker 1: how we got him on the podcast and how he

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Speaker 1: became a guest, probably one of the most impressive guests,

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Speaker 1: impressive people I've ever been privileged to spend time around.

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Speaker 1: So hopefully you'll stick around for that. But before we

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Speaker 1: get there, I want to talk to you a little

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Speaker 1: bit about First Light. The first Light. We talked to

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Speaker 1: you last week about Ryan Callahan's kit. Well, right now

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Speaker 1: we've got Mark Kenyon's early season white out kit up

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Speaker 1: on first light dot Com, So go there first dot

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Speaker 1: Com check out Mark Kenyon's early season white Tail Kid

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Speaker 1: and all that it entails. And after you do that,

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Speaker 1: this is a little special announcement here on the show.

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Speaker 1: We launched a contest to go win a hunt white

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Speaker 1: Tail Hunt with Mark Kenyon and Steven Ronnella on a

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Speaker 1: new property that we purchased called the Back forty and

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Speaker 1: it's in Michigan where you there's a new content series

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Speaker 1: that's rolling out now. You can go check all this

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Speaker 1: information out at the mediator dot com slash Win a Hunt.

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Speaker 1: You can learn about our new content that's coming next

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Speaker 1: week and all the weeks after, and also learn about

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Speaker 1: how to win a hunt in Michigan with those two gentlemen,

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Speaker 1: which I think a lot of you might want to do. So,

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Speaker 1: without further ado, we're gonna take you to Dr Valarious

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Speaker 1: Guist and his amazing tales. I guess I grew up

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Speaker 1: on an alder row to the medal, always did what

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Speaker 1: I've told until I found out that my brand new

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Speaker 1: close the game second hand from the rich kids next door.

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Speaker 1: And I grew up fast, like it's like grew up.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they have a thousand things inside of my

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Speaker 1: head I wish I ain't seen, And now I just

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Speaker 1: wanted the real bad dream of being a like I'm

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Speaker 1: coming apart of the scenes, but thank you Jack Daniels. No, hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: episode number seventy nine. Right last week, I got the

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Speaker 1: number wrong, and now we had to go back and

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Speaker 1: dub over. And you'll hear in the future podcast the

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Speaker 1: story if we had to dub over because I got

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Speaker 1: the number wrong. But this is seventy nine. I'm fucking

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Speaker 1: sure of it. And we're here in the Meat Eater

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Speaker 1: headquarters in Bosamontana. We have a great show for you.

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Speaker 1: One of the the most amazing UH guests I've We've

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Speaker 1: had in the upwards of eight shows and conversations we've recorded.

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Speaker 1: I'm we just got to finished recording and I'm reeling

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Speaker 1: at this point. I'm not sure what to say or

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Speaker 1: how to describe our guest, Dr Valarius geist You know,

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Speaker 1: I had heard of Dr geist Um, obviously for for

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Speaker 1: many reasons, but I was unaware of what he's just

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Speaker 1: like a majestic human being. He defies description and logic,

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Speaker 1: and he is the most well read, well spoken, and

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Speaker 1: articulate person I've ever met in my life. And that

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Speaker 1: is not being hyperbolic at all. So I'm here with

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Speaker 1: Karine Sneider are wonderful podcast producer All Things podcast. Is

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Speaker 1: that right? You've been on the Being your podcast, so

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Speaker 1: people know you're becoming a name. I guess. I guess

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Speaker 1: so in the family. And the first thing we should

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Speaker 1: describe is how Dr Guys came to be a guest

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Speaker 1: on The Hunt Collective And I think this may be

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Speaker 1: like in the Annals of Hunting Collective lore, this maybe

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Speaker 1: the best behind the scenes story that there is. Do

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Speaker 1: you feel Do you agree steakouts are always fun? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So bass Sickly, I've always wanted to have Doctor Guys

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Speaker 1: on the podcast. I didn't never know how to make

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Speaker 1: that happen. I tried to get a hold of him.

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Speaker 1: He lives in the Vancouver Island. He's widower, and he

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Speaker 1: doesn't have doesn't know how to use his phone, doesn't

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Speaker 1: really do email communication. It's pretty hard to get ahold

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Speaker 1: of I knew some people that knew him. We were unsuccessful,

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Speaker 1: and then I heard last week that he was going

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Speaker 1: to be actually earlier this week, that he was going

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Speaker 1: to be in Bozeman for a conference with the Wild

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Speaker 1: Sheep Foundation, And so I called some of my good

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Speaker 1: buddy Garrett long or Karin got Ahold of Garret along

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Speaker 1: at the Wild Cheap Foundation. He went over to Dr

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Speaker 1: Geist during the conference and just said, Hey, there's this

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Speaker 1: brandom guy almost the podcast with your dr. Guy said

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Speaker 1: I don't know what my number is. I don't You

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Speaker 1: can give my number, but I'm not sure what it is,

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Speaker 1: so just uh have him come over to the conference

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Speaker 1: and find me. And that's where Karan comes in. So

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Speaker 1: that's what a steak out is in a way. And

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Speaker 1: you've you've done steakouts before. Yeah, I've done some steakout

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Speaker 1: steakouts before. You did a stakeout with like the Korean Army.

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Speaker 1: It was the North Korean delegation coming in through JFK Airport.

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Speaker 1: So we yeah, we got stuck in the little not

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Speaker 1: the turnstyle. What do you call that? You know, you're

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Speaker 1: doing a lot of it's a circle fell down the well,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's you know, it's like the entrance to airports.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I'm having like a stroke right

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Speaker 1: now and forgetting the name the not the turn. You

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Speaker 1: know when you go in and it's like glass and

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Speaker 1: it's a glass, it's like a fish, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: like a revolving door. There we go. That's what you're

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Speaker 1: trying to describe to me. You're using your hand and

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Speaker 1: using a circle motion describing revolving Yeah. So anyway, moving on,

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Speaker 1: so uh yeah, steakouts um. I first went to the

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Speaker 1: incorrect hotel, my bad um, and then I found the

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Speaker 1: correct hotel. And you had a little piece of paper

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Speaker 1: that I had. I had a handwritten note. My plan

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Speaker 1: was to find this man, hand him the note with

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Speaker 1: Ben's business card, and now it was you know, like,

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Speaker 1: this is us from the meet in company and Ben's

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Speaker 1: podcast and et cetera. Here's our contact information. We would

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Speaker 1: love to have you on. So then you found so

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Speaker 1: I went. I went to the Hilton Garden. I was

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Speaker 1: gonna drop this off with the front desk, but instead

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Speaker 1: to the right side there were a couple of glass

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Speaker 1: doors and a conference billboard and I was like, I

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Speaker 1: bet that's the Youngulate conference. I bet that's what that is.

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Speaker 1: And they were um in the reception area, and I

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Speaker 1: just had it, looked at my phone, found that picture

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Speaker 1: Dr Geist and just checked out every single person there.

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Speaker 1: So you were just like creepily in the room absolutely

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Speaker 1: where I did not belong. And I was just probably

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Speaker 1: would have been good at the say I've seen the CIA,

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Speaker 1: but maybe not anyway, So yeah, I try to look

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Speaker 1: cash weally like drinking a drink. I didn't even I

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Speaker 1: just kind of, you know, I just walked through the people.

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Speaker 1: I found a man who I was almost sure was him.

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Speaker 1: He was talking to another woman, and I waited patiently

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Speaker 1: and uh, And then I asked him if he was,

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Speaker 1: in fact Dr Valerius Guist, and he said yes, And

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Speaker 1: then we started a conversation that lasted for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and then I was finally able to introduce why, why

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Speaker 1: the hell I was talking to in the first place? Um?

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Speaker 1: And he was absolutely lovely and incredibly receptive and said

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Speaker 1: he would be happy to join and thankfully was going

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Speaker 1: to be in town for a few more days. And

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Speaker 1: that was that. The life of a producer, The life

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Speaker 1: of a producer, it's your an unsung hero. And like

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Speaker 1: all of the knowledge, the immense amount of knowledge, and

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Speaker 1: as we were talking about before we started recording this,

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Speaker 1: it goes all over the place. We talked about wolves

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Speaker 1: and mule deer and his family life. When he cried

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Speaker 1: at least three times, we laughed many times like this

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Speaker 1: is this is a conversation that I didn't have much

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Speaker 1: to do with other than like asking questions. But it's

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Speaker 1: just the information that's within this um I think is substantial.

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Speaker 1: I think everybody will be better for it. So I

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Speaker 1: just want to make sure we had the backstory as

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Speaker 1: to how he ended up here and then he got

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Speaker 1: He came here in a taxi. He said he had

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Speaker 1: to wait like forty five minutes for a taxi, and

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Speaker 1: he was sitting in the front seat of the taxi

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Speaker 1: when he arrived, you know, like legitly everyone like an

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Speaker 1: old like like a taxi, not a ride sharing. I

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Speaker 1: just put him in his first ever uber to get

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Speaker 1: him back to his hotel. I mean all of this

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Speaker 1: to say that here's a guy that doesn't do a

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Speaker 1: lot of public speaking in this way, and I, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I'm not sure how to articulate how astounded

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Speaker 1: I was by by his presence and like what he

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Speaker 1: brought to the podcast of the conversation. He stood out

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Speaker 1: in our office and talked to ten people and described

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Speaker 1: his uh leaving Germany after World War Two and growing

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Speaker 1: up in Russia, and he just is so fluently talked

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Speaker 1: about these things. We cried about his his wife passing away,

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Speaker 1: We cried about a pet moose, all the things in

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Speaker 1: this podcast that happened. I there's a tear in Ben's

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Speaker 1: eye every it's like it's this was Legitimately. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: go home and hug my wife and family and read

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Speaker 1: as many books as I can between now and the

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Speaker 1: next podcast because I am humbled by that man, his

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Speaker 1: presence in the conversation. So I could go on all

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Speaker 1: day about that. I'm probably stammering a little bit because

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Speaker 1: I feel like I just had a shot of adrenaline

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Speaker 1: from from listening to this guy, and it all came

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Speaker 1: together because you wrote a little hand right now. Did

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Speaker 1: you ever give him the note? It was the last

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Speaker 1: thing I did. He was like, I'll do it. Here's

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Speaker 1: a note. Now. I'm really I'm really glad that that

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Speaker 1: worked out. Me too, um, because it worked out. It

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Speaker 1: worked out well. So hopefully you enjoy this conversation with

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Speaker 1: Dr Proce, guyst and m Karant and I have other

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Speaker 1: adventures another podcast that we can like the new You

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Speaker 1: want to tell everybody about the new organization we're starting

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Speaker 1: for kids. Oh no, that's terrible, you know? Is it offensive?

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Speaker 1: All right? We won't talk about it, then we won't

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Speaker 1: talk about it. Maybe maybe stay tuned, Stay tuned. We're

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Speaker 1: starting KRANT and are starting a new nonprofit organization for kids,

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Speaker 1: and it has to do with cups. That's that's all

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Speaker 1: we're gonna tell me. Um, all right, well we're gonna

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Speaker 1: get you to this conversation again. I can't um, I

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Speaker 1: can't tell you how much I appreciated this this and

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Speaker 1: hopefully you can hear my voice that. UM, the energy

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Speaker 1: is still in this room and talk to you guys

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Speaker 1: just left it, So hopefully that comes through and hopefully

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Speaker 1: you enjoy Dr hilarious guist. I guess I grew up

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Speaker 1: on an alder road. Dr guys, welcome to the studio.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to meet Eater. How are you? Thank you? I'm fine, Well,

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Speaker 1: you were just commenting on the studio. We often start

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Speaker 1: these interviews by asking people to describe their surroundings. Were

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Speaker 1: not often uh not planted in the studio, will be

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Speaker 1: out in the field and you're able to kind of

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Speaker 1: describe the natural landscape. But in this case, you're making

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Speaker 1: a comment on our studio. What do you feel like?

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Speaker 1: You're well, it's abody, I can atching studio it has

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Speaker 1: a lot of things where the eye bounces two comes

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Speaker 1: to rest and then realize that's something very interesting and

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Speaker 1: cute as being communicated like that moose with the forked

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Speaker 1: and the good eatings, and they are very good to eat.

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Speaker 1: They are they can also be very terrible to eat,

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Speaker 1: particularly if you shoot a bowl in December. That's true.

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Speaker 1: That's true. Now you're commenting on we have a mule

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Speaker 1: there European mount hanging on the wall above me, and

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Speaker 1: you're commenting on the unique nature of that. Tell me, well, yes,

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Speaker 1: I realized that this is a muletea that has come basically,

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Speaker 1: well your montana. That's a prairie mule deer. That's a

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Speaker 1: footill mule. And the mule deer have very large eyes.

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Speaker 1: The eyes of these multia are within one millimeter in

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Speaker 1: diameter of those of pronghorn antelope, and the prongoe antelope

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Speaker 1: is the beast with the largest eyes. The mule deer

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Speaker 1: box in the interior of British Columbia, on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: have very small eyes and narrow skulls, and the skulls

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Speaker 1: are so different from the prairie muleia that there would

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Speaker 1: be a different subspecies except that outside they still look

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Speaker 1: exactly like mule deer. Wow. Yeah, and just just from

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Speaker 1: just over my shoulder before hit record that you called

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Speaker 1: that out. I was very impressed. Another. You see, I've

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Speaker 1: worked for eight years every running season and quite close

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Speaker 1: to here um Water the National Park with ease deer. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so I can tell you also that because of

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Speaker 1: us so tame and I was able to stand with them,

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Speaker 1: these bucks will observe other mule deer at half a

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Speaker 1: mile away very very carefully. They have excellent vision, whereas

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Speaker 1: the mule deer from the interior of British Columbia are

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Speaker 1: in mountain regions that don't quite reach the timber line,

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Speaker 1: which means that you have their heavy time, that heavy

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Speaker 1: heavy timber. When you hunt that country, you're often hunt

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Speaker 1: the timber cuts. That's that's that's correct. That's right. So

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Speaker 1: that that makes a whole lot of sense that you

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Speaker 1: say that right. That's that's that's right. But the astonishing

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Speaker 1: thing is that these animals are only a few hundred

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Speaker 1: miles apart, and they're so vastly, vastly different in their

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Speaker 1: skull morphology. It's the relationship from that will as wild

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Speaker 1: creatures to the landscape that they live is so well

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Speaker 1: painted by that well, actually well paint. The mule deer

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Speaker 1: here that I'm looking at is unique. In another way,

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Speaker 1: the mule deer here in Montana is running on the

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Speaker 1: mitochondrial DNAs of white tail deer. Yeah, how so the

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Speaker 1: mule deer is a black tail, But the black tail

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Speaker 1: mitochondial DNA that you find in Washington, Oregon, and California,

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Speaker 1: Vancouver Island up into Alaska is completely different. The mule

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Speaker 1: deer is basically a hybrid species and it Arose I

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Speaker 1: suspect relatively recently. At recent times when after megaphonal extinctions,

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Speaker 1: white tailed deer spread all over the continent, they were

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Speaker 1: confined pretty well too small pockets. But once the competition

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Speaker 1: of the many many general of big large mammals was

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Speaker 1: down and out through extinction, they spread all over the

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Speaker 1: place and they met black tails. So the mule deer

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Speaker 1: is derived from female white tails being bred by black

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Speaker 1: tailed mane males. Yes, yes, that's often the story. And

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Speaker 1: and I've heard, you know, Steve and all are Founder

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Speaker 1: and others talk about and posit that maybe that the

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Speaker 1: meal there is a very brief blip that's correct in

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Speaker 1: the wildlife and you kind of the lineage of that.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly what I wrote in my first book on

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Speaker 1: mule deer. Yes, exactly, He's right. Is it's a very

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Speaker 1: sensitive species, particularly because if they meet white tailed deer,

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Speaker 1: and the mule deer is heavily hunted, and so you

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Speaker 1: don't have these big bucks around. The white tailed bucks,

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Speaker 1: which are shy and survive much better the hunting pressure

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Speaker 1: than the mulier do, come out and breathe the mulier

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Speaker 1: dos and the In fact, it's only about one out

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Speaker 1: of a hundred hybrids that is coming out of a

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Speaker 1: junction of male mule deer and female white tail. Everyone

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Speaker 1: else has a mule deer as her mother and the

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Speaker 1: white taller as her father. But the they don't survive

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Speaker 1: very well because once they get on their own year

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Speaker 1: and a half and have to escape predators, they completely

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Speaker 1: mix up the running strategies of the two species into

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Speaker 1: a non functioning mess. Oh, it's something to build. You

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Speaker 1: see what we did, because we experimented with that. We

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Speaker 1: built a runway and we put obstacles into the runway,

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Speaker 1: and then we chased white tails, mule deer and hybrids,

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Speaker 1: and what time was this, Where was this in Calgary

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Speaker 1: days drive from here and earlier in your life or

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Speaker 1: when at one point when I was professor of the

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Speaker 1: use of Calgary and it's was Dr Susan Lingle that

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Speaker 1: did these experiments. So we set up, as I said,

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Speaker 1: the runway with the obstacles, and then we chased the

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Speaker 1: deer through the white tail. What comes at high speed

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Speaker 1: and very elegantly glides over top of each obstacles, clearing

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Speaker 1: it by a couple of inches or so. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: mule deer comes starting in in great enthusiasm, flies over

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Speaker 1: the first flies over the second obstacle. By that time

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Speaker 1: he's he's jumping so wide that he flies right over

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Speaker 1: the eight ft fence by the way, Oh god, yes,

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Speaker 1: And now comes the hybrid. The hybrid jumps with the

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Speaker 1: trajectory of the white tail, but he lets the legs

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Speaker 1: hang down like the mule there, so he hits the

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Speaker 1: every obstacle and hits the nose on the ground first.

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Speaker 1: Every single time, was he persistent, They keep going. They

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Speaker 1: can't do it. They can't because they see they don't

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Speaker 1: lift their legs up. Interesting, Oh, white tails run away

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Speaker 1: from coyotes and dogs. Mule there may turn around and

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Speaker 1: give your dog a thrashing or kyote thrashing. They really

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Speaker 1: go after it. And then, like you said, they're very

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Speaker 1: territorial in the sense that day if an elk move in.

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Speaker 1: Let's say they're living in a in a basin and

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Speaker 1: elk move and they move out, Well they do. But

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Speaker 1: the point that I'm trying to bring up is the

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Speaker 1: anti predator strategies. They the female mule deer attacks coyotes.

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Speaker 1: In fact, when there is sort of a mixed bunch

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Speaker 1: of multiar females vital females giving birth, the white tailed

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Speaker 1: fonts are actually protected by the action of the muleteer

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Speaker 1: dough because she really gets rid of the predator. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's incredible, but this has been verified, so I'm not

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Speaker 1: telling your story. This is true. But now what happens

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Speaker 1: when you bring in a hybrid. What the hybrid does

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Speaker 1: is well, first of all, when we came in with

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Speaker 1: the big dog to test this, the white tails ran

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Speaker 1: away right away, but the muleteer gathered then started making

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Speaker 1: a little round, and then they came running and they

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Speaker 1: ran around me. If I had the dog and all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden one would jump clear, go over the

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Speaker 1: dog and hit it on poissant and the dogs would

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Speaker 1: scream and try to get between my legs and so on.

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Speaker 1: That's what the mule di did. Do you know what

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Speaker 1: the hybrid did. He walked up to the dog and stopped. Unbelievable. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you see, they can have no capacity to survive in

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Speaker 1: the wild. In captivity, they survived very well, of course,

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Speaker 1: because we keep them. They produce big farms, they produce

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Speaker 1: lots of milk. They are good mothers. But they could don't.

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Speaker 1: So if you have the situation where you have a

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Speaker 1: heavy hunting pressure on mule deer and the white tales

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Speaker 1: come in, you wipe out the mule deer because the

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Speaker 1: muletier females from now on produce a non viable farm

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Speaker 1: every year. And the way the multi population goes extinct.

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Speaker 1: So many taba for instance. Yeah, and around the turn

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Speaker 1: of the century, nine century, there was nothing else but multier.

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Speaker 1: Then the white tals came in, and then the muleteer

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Speaker 1: survived only on the sandhills and many Tooba went from

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Speaker 1: several million muleteer down to about a couple of hundred.

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Speaker 1: That's all. And so the question is why were they

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Speaker 1: few mule you're able to hang on. And what is

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Speaker 1: the significance of the sandials. That's exactly what you Finally

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Speaker 1: tran Saskatchewan and Alberta am that's the only place in

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Speaker 1: Mulier survived. And the reason is very simple. When a

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Speaker 1: mule deer buck chase pardon me, when a white tailed

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Speaker 1: buck chases a mule deer dough, the mule deer dog

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Speaker 1: runs up the steep slope like a jack rabbit, absolutely

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Speaker 1: straight and way over top. And why a tail buck

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Speaker 1: cannot follow. He has a rotary gallop and he can

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Speaker 1: only go up diagonally up that. But when the dough

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Speaker 1: flies over top, something else that happens. Usually in the

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Speaker 1: rutting season, the big mule deer bucks are on high

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Speaker 1: vantage points and they see the dough flying over, runs

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Speaker 1: over and breeds her, and so it will be a

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Speaker 1: mule deer baby that comes out, and too bad, the

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Speaker 1: white tail is out. Secondly, the mule deer bucks are

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Speaker 1: hopelessly dominant over white tails, hopelessly dominant. No white tail

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Speaker 1: will dare come in that that body size. That just

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Speaker 1: aggressive nature that I don't know exactly what it is,

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Speaker 1: but I've seen that myself. But the other thing that

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Speaker 1: it's even more funnier is the white tail females love

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Speaker 1: mule deer bucks, except they're ignoring them. We don't know why,

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Speaker 1: but ignoring them. But sus lingln said, if the world

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Speaker 1: was made according to white tails, all the white tails,

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Speaker 1: those would have a muleteer lover. Do you feel, you know,

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Speaker 1: thinking about the way that these these species inhabit and

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Speaker 1: subspecies and hybrid species inhabit these places and kind of

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Speaker 1: shift each other around, do you feel like it's more

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Speaker 1: predominant that I think I know the answer based on

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Speaker 1: what you're saying, especially with these species, that it's the

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Speaker 1: genetics that predispose them these activities or it's conditioning. No,

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Speaker 1: it's it's both actually, but the genetics is very very powerful. See,

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Speaker 1: a muleteer cannot run in any other way except the

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Speaker 1: way it is genetically cut to yes, and that is

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Speaker 1: until we see them that the hybrid switches back and

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Speaker 1: forth and does everything wrong because it is not a

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Speaker 1: clean cut genetic principle. Genetic can enjoy them good, it's

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Speaker 1: must joan. Listeners can look that up. They can translate

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Speaker 1: that word. It's a pattern. It's a genetic pattern. They're

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Speaker 1: kind of locked in this genetic case. Putting in conditioning

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Speaker 1: can move them around without that structure, but cannot It's limited.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Well, I want to get to a lot

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Speaker 1: of things with you. I think we might be here

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Speaker 1: for a while. It sounds like we just want to

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Speaker 1: a conversation off meal deer skull one. I want to

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Speaker 1: say thank you so much for coming over. It. It

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Speaker 1: dawned on me when when you agree to come over

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Speaker 1: that the weight of your work. Yeah, you spent, you've

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Speaker 1: and it's almost it will be impossible to cover it

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Speaker 1: all here there it we'd be here for a week.

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Speaker 1: I feel I've done a few things, yes, and so

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Speaker 1: we'll try to hit some of them, the more relevant

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Speaker 1: to the conversations up today. But then also I want

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Speaker 1: to really just dive into, um, who you are and

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Speaker 1: where you came from and kind of what shaped your views,

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Speaker 1: because I think that's this podcast, um you know, yes,

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Speaker 1: is about that. It's about every person that we've been

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Speaker 1: able to talk to her on. This will be episode

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Speaker 1: number eighty, who talked to eighty folks, including your friend,

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Speaker 1: Shane Mahoney and others. Beautiful, beautiful person. He is trying

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Speaker 1: to connect all of the why why do you think

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Speaker 1: the way you do? Why do you push wildlife the

407
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Speaker 1: way you do? Why have you committed your life to

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Speaker 1: what you've committed it to? UM? You know why the

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Speaker 1: North American model wildlife conservation. So those wise kind of

410
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Speaker 1: connected to everyone else we've talked to UM to kind

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Speaker 1: of weave together a fabric of us as hunters and

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Speaker 1: wildlife lovers and things of that nature. So, so I

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Speaker 1: want to start with where you were born and your upbringing. UM,

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Speaker 1: I imagine there's lots of good stories. You were born

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Speaker 1: in Night. I was born in second February, which is

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Speaker 1: very close to the Black Sea and the enabled city

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Speaker 1: in the UK in the Ukraine, but today it's Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: In those days was Russia basically USR. Well, we never

419
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Speaker 1: spoke Ukrainian. We spoke Russian at those times, and my

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Speaker 1: mother spoke Ukrainian as a second language. Well mind you,

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Speaker 1: she spoke five languages, but Ukrainian was one of them,

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Speaker 1: and Ukrainians differed significantly from Russian. Yes, at anyway, No,

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Speaker 1: I was born there. My father was born in White

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Speaker 1: Russia on the prepat Rover, which today has been depopulated

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Speaker 1: because of Chuna bil So my whole ancestry which comes

426
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: from that areas today without people and it's strictly wildlife

427
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: in the area. While that is dealing with the radiation

428
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: and rather successful manner would say any related family moved

429
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: out there. Obviously, I have no clue what relatives are alive.

430
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 1: I don't think any art. I do know that the

431
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: village from which my where my father was born, was

432
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: apparently totally destroyed in the Second World War, and it

433
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,919
Speaker 1: may very well have been that my uh my grandmother

434
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: grandfather had died much much, much earlier, they would probably

435
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: have been killed either in in the terms of war.

436
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: But there's another possibility which is really a painful one,

437
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: and that is that Hitler, to begin with, the Preparart

438
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 1: river borders, the huge, huge marshes they're famous for. Jingis

439
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: count couldn't get through. Napoleon couldn't get through, the wear

440
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 1: marcht couldn't get through, and they called it in German

441
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: as we Martloch, which means the hole in the wear Wacht.

442
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: Because so this was an ideal place for the partisans

443
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: to hide out, you see, and so the Germans developed specials,

444
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: commander units, murderous units from jailed poachers from Germany, poachers

445
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: which were good at operating at night and the dusk

446
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: and so on, and so these commanders went and they've

447
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: destroyed one village after the other. So it could be

448
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 1: that my grandmother fell victim to those as well during

449
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 1: during the war that side. So my father was a

450
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 1: ship building engineer. His specialty was battleships. My mother's specialities

451
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: were submarines. They were boards in cheese, an engineer like

452
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: my father was. And we left Nikolaia when I was

453
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: four years old in the nineteen forty three November the

454
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: eighth amount of Fact and went to Austria and then

455
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 1: to Germany, and that is where I became became basically

456
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: culturally a German. And you can still hear it in

457
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 1: my language. Yes, that's a wonderful it's a wonderful accent

458
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: at any rage. Then we came to Canada in nineteen

459
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: fifty three. I was then fifteen years old, and one

460
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: of the first thing I did I joined the regined,

461
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: the rifle regiment. And for the very sample reason I

462
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: had enough experience on the receiving side in World War two,

463
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: uh and I realized that in the nineteen fifties, we

464
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 1: had the Cold War. It could become a hot water

465
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: in the time. I didn't want to be repaired, and

466
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: I thought the best way to prepare myself in this

467
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 1: new land which I came to, my new home, Canada.

468
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: I was going to join the rifle Regiment. And why Canada?

469
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: Why why from from Germany to Canada. Well, to begin with,

470
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: it had been an earlier choice, and my aunt had

471
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: come in to Canada, and we simply followed, were able

472
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 1: to follow. God Thanks. At that time it was a

473
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: wonderful choice. And also my choice to become a Canadian

474
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 1: soldier was a wonderful choice because I was so amazed

475
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: at the kindness, at the understanding tolerance of the veterans

476
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: that had fought. And but when now teaching us kids,

477
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: I was fifteen years old, six mostly other one sixteen seventeen.

478
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: At that age, they had experienced terrible things during there,

479
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: during the war, and yet they were ready to serve

480
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: their country again. They put on the uniform again and

481
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: they took us kids under their wings, and God Thanks,

482
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: they were wonderful men, absolutely wonderful men. Do you do

483
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: you remember the first time you were interested in wildlife?

484
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: Do you remember whether growing up in Oh, yeah, so

485
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: you remember the first moment that you knew that you

486
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: weren't going to be because your parents were engineered. That's right.

487
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: But my grandfather was a professor of botany, and unfortunately

488
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: he was taken away by the Secret Service. Uh. He

489
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: died in our ultimately archipel Gulag, but he was taken

490
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: away when I was six months old, and that was

491
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: a terrible blow to the family. My grandfather and grandmother

492
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: had a wonderful marriage, and my aunt and my mother

493
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: eulogized their father. He was a wonderfully humorous man. And

494
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: as I grew up around these wonderful women, Uh, it

495
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: dawned on me that if everyone were half as good

496
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: as my grandfather would be a fantastic father who did

497
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: that way, I have a similar situation. Oh that's wonder

498
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: It's a wonderful gift to have. Oh, it is fantastic. Yeah, yeah,

499
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: I agree with you. Trying to live up to that. Yeah,

500
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: you have to live up to that, that's right. So

501
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: it was a great blow to the family, which is

502
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: one reason why we took the first opportunity to leave Russia.

503
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: And my mother, when she was nine, she died at

504
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: Hunton too, by the way portel Bernie here in British Columbia.

505
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: She told me when she just came to portel Bernie

506
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: and to us that the reason I was the only

507
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: one is because when grandfather was taken, she determined no

508
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: more children for Stalin, no more children for Stalin. So

509
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: I'm the only one. But no, I was interested in

510
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: living things very early on, and I have more memories

511
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: about pestering my grandmother to teach me how to cook

512
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: and bake and do things, because I was from early

513
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: age convinced that I would be in the wilderness alone,

514
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: and you're gonna have to learn how to cook. You

515
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: have to cook and bake and look after yourself. So

516
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: I that's a good trade and I got the best training.

517
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: Why were you convinced? Convinced that early on? Because I

518
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: was interested in the very early on. I was interested

519
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: in the Canadian wilderness. Yeah, before I came to Canada,

520
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: I already read the book by Lautograph Hunsbruck. That was

521
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: a German um count that came to Canada hunt on

522
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: the profit drivel Musqua River in British Columbia. When he returned,

523
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: the RCMP was waiting for him because the Second World

524
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: War had started and he was interned in Calgary, and

525
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: later on I was a professor in Calgary, you see.

526
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: But the point is, before I came to Canada, had

527
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: read his books and was familiar and stimulated as also

528
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: many about Canada. And we think this is the wonderful

529
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: broad land with wildlife in British Columbia. Yeah, well Canada

530
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,959
Speaker 1: as a whole, Indians and so on. There's a romance,

531
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: and this is such an important romance for instance, that

532
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: I'll give you two examples. We were going to speak

533
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: about wolves. Yes, one of the great mysteries that permeated

534
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: North America the Good Globe is why did American wolves

535
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: not attack people? Well it finally they did attack Kent

536
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: and Carnegie and I investigated his death on behalf of

537
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: the family. But the point of the matter is we

538
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: discussed with my friend Eric Klinghammer, who created Wolf Park

539
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: in the Battleground, Indiana, professor like myself and mythologists, he

540
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: also studied under Conduct Lawrence, the great mythologist that said,

541
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: I and we were discussing what is it that these

542
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: wolves don't attack people? And why do Siberian wolves, but

543
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: particularly Russian wolves do attack people. Well, you will not

544
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: find an answer in English, but you'll find it in Germany.

545
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: Because two Romantics wrote something that gave us a clue.

546
00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: One was a taxidermist, basic but a well educated man.

547
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: In the brilliant writer. He spent eight years in the

548
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: oil sands regions, and that was four and he wrote

549
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: about trapping and the life of trappers. You see, can

550
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: you find me a book that speaks romantically about the

551
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: life of American trappers in the wilderness. No, because these

552
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: were socially of people of very low standing. They were

553
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,719
Speaker 1: desperate men. They were poverty strict in man. Yeah, if

554
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: the kid didn't go trapping, they die because there was nothing.

555
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: We've glorified it. Later, at the point of a matter

556
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: of fact, there wasn't a glorification. But this man wrote

557
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: in detail about the lives. And now he began to

558
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: open my eyes about the wolves involved. You see, um

559
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: trappers didn't like wolves, and they didn't like wolves. First

560
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: of all, when the wolves come into an area, wildlife panics,

561
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: and I can guarantee you they do. And then these men,

562
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: poverty strict and men that depend on this wildlife were

563
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: be standing there with nothing to hunt. And Max Sinschey,

564
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: that's the name of this gentleman, almost staff to death

565
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: because of that. Secondly, they follow trap lines. The wolves

566
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: followed trap lines and destroy for when you make three

567
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: four hundred dollars of winter, every pelt counts, for Heaven's sake, desperation.

568
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: It's desperation, that's right. Thirdly, the mode of transportation, it

569
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: was dog sled Now, dogs and wolves don't get along.

570
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: And the best story of that that I know of

571
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: is the stories from Greenland. It's one of the explorers

572
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 1: who was a meteorologist in the state, in the med station. Now,

573
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: the point of the matter is the following. He was

574
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: in the med station in the Arctic winter, sending out

575
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: signals about he was supposed to be provided for, but no,

576
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: the relief arrived. The reason was that all they tried

577
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: and tried and tried to get through with dog sleds,

578
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: the wolf cut them down every single time. In other words,

579
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: if you are traveling with dog sleds, you are not

580
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: going to be very tolerant of wolves. I'll guarantee you.

581
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 1: So you have your three things here, Yeah, of intolerance. Now,

582
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: in Northern Canada there lived about sixty thousand trappers. Today

583
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: there are there about sixty thousand wolves. Then about fifty

584
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 1: sixty seventy eighty years ago there were probably only about

585
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: thirty thousand wolves or less, so you had for every

586
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: wolf one or two trappers. Wolves have very large territories,

587
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: so they were meeting continuously people that were hostile. And

588
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: that doesn't count the natives that lived there, the white

589
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: settlers that lived there, the hunters that cave there to

590
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: hunt you in the all killed wolves. And besides that,

591
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: if the wolves could got out of that area into

592
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: the settled landscapes, then government trappers who take care of them. Yeah,

593
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: and on top of that, they were throwing out poisoned

594
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: horsemeat onto rivers and creeks in wintertime to bring down wolves.

595
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 1: So the point of the matter was that every wolf

596
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: was continuously experiencing a pretty negative condition from humans, and

597
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 1: wolves are very smart, very smart. That result is there

598
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: was absolute peace. The mono attacks on humans conditioning we're

599
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,879
Speaker 1: talking about the that's the answer. That's the answer, that's

600
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: the answer. Yeah, and wolves, on the other hand, do

601
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: become well. Life been attacked by wolves. I've been attacked

602
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: by grizzly bears, have been attacked by black bears have

603
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 1: been even attacked by coyotes. Good heavements when this breaks down. Yeah,

604
00:35:55,680 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: is the Russian experience is excellent in this regard. During

605
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: the Second World War, the Russian army became took the

606
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: young men out of the villages and they at the

607
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,439
Speaker 1: same time removed their shotguns and rifles and everything else.

608
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: So you had now women and children and old people undefended,

609
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: and the wolves took advantage of that immediately. Yes, we

610
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: wrote about that recently on our website. That's right around

611
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: the same time that they had to stop fighting to

612
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: both sides of the war. And that's a that's a

613
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: different one. As a matter of fact, this is a

614
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: bit of a bit. I'll tell you specific instances of this.

615
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 1: During the Balkan War when the Turks and the oh

616
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: one of the neighbors one another. The situation got so

617
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: bad that they they had their truth and in one

618
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: day a cavalry regiment killed hundred forty five wolves. But

619
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: the wolf, traditionally in Old Sagas is called the beast

620
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: of battle, along with the raven, along with the eagle

621
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 1: and the vulture. Those are the beasts of battle. And

622
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: the significance is that if a man fell and he

623
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: could not be rescued, he would fall victims to the

624
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: beasts of battle, and he would never be able to

625
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: get to Valhalla, and there would be eternal shame of

626
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: his family. That's well, yeah, so this idea that there

627
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: would be the wolves present on the battlefield is an

628
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: ancient one, absolutely, agent that you're thinking about the New

629
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: York article the nineteen sixteen with the Germans and the

630
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 1: Russians quit for a while and killed wolves. Yes, that's

631
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 1: been passed around and many times times. But actually in officially,

632
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 1: the Germans and the Russians on the Eastern Front quite

633
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: frequently twit the world for a while to settle things.

634
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: But you won't find that in the official records because

635
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: something like how can you have bet Russians discuss things

636
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 1: with him? Well, and you actually have a book called

637
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: Wolves and Russia Anxiety through the Ages, wrote, Yes, that's right. Well,

638
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: actually yes it was. Bill Graves is one of a

639
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: brilliant man and he's one of your senior Uh how shure,

640
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: I'll call it officers that deals with secret matters, etcetera.

641
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: How do you call intelligence intelligence? And he's one of

642
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: the senior ones. But the cute thing is that how

643
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: he got to that book because he was trying to

644
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: learn Russian. He was at the embassy in Moscow, and

645
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: the Russians, in their brilliance, had put out very very

646
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: young soldiers from Siberia as guards because they were politically naive,

647
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 1: and so the poor kids were standing there and he

648
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 1: came and talked to them, and he was a hunter

649
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: and fisherman's on and they loved it, and so they

650
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: looked forward to speaking with him. And they told them

651
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: all about their experiences in Siberia and the wolves, and

652
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: TRIP said, my god, their experiences are very, very different

653
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 1: from what we have in the United States. So if

654
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: he began to write things down at that point, and

655
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: he began visiting Russian scientists and Russian editors hunting journals, yeah,

656
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: and he masked, in fact, quite a book. Now don't

657
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: ask me how the damn thing walked wound up on

658
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: my desk, but he did. And I read it and

659
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: I said, oh, my goodness, this is very good. But

660
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:25,919
Speaker 1: it's too big, it's too redundant. And so I called

661
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: him and I said, look, I think I think I

662
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:34,919
Speaker 1: can get it published in Canada, provided we can cut

663
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: this down and make it, condense it, and in other

664
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: ways I said I'll volunteer, I'll be the editor or no.

665
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: He was delighted by that, and I rewrote it verbatim

666
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: from front aproat also the introduction to that book um

667
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 1: and tried to but every sentence that went down was

668
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: cleared through Will Graves. We are to this day friends.

669
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: He calls me every month. We're on email on the

670
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 1: internet daily. Yea. So we have had we have had

671
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,959
Speaker 1: a wonderful relation to trust relationship. Now in that book,

672
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: I had as an editor some difficulties because I no

673
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: longer no longer speak Russian. So I tried my very best,

674
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 1: and many of the footnotes and notes are mine, and

675
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 1: that just as the introduction is mine. And well, we

676
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: couldn't give the book away when it was first published.

677
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: We tried to get to libraries that were sent back. No,

678
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,479
Speaker 1: we don't want it day the fascination of Wolves. Today

679
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: today we can't even buy back a second hand copy

680
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: because it's cost you so much more going for on

681
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 1: the internet. Oh, then they're they're down in price. Then

682
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 1: there used to be much than By the way the

683
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: book was translated into Finnish and the Finns even got

684
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: a second edition out. It was that interesting. We are

685
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: now Will and I are sort of working on the

686
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: second edition, except we don't have a publisher, and we're

687
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: pinning to get one, so we can probably get you

688
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: one of this podcast, would you please we can, Oh

689
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 1: my god, everybody listening right now, because it is now

690
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: ninety years old and I'm eighty two, almost eighty two,

691
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:12,839
Speaker 1: and we would love to spend a couple of years

692
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: getting the second edition hot, and we were very far

693
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: into it, of course, we would love to do it.

694
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: Le'll see what we can do for you there, I hope,

695
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 1: so thank you anybody listening. But we're gonna try here.

696
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 1: Mediator too, and I read some portions of the book

697
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: online and we're looking through your works and this one

698
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: struck me is is we can talk about this one

699
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: all day, but I want to return back to, you know,

700
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: talking about your years prior to to all of your

701
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: works and and finding out why. So you're in Canada,

702
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: that's right, how you joined the rifle Regiment, joined the

703
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,720
Speaker 1: rifle Regiment, that's right. I spent four years in Canadian

704
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: uniform and I became of course after the first cadet

705
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: and then it was militia that reserve soldiers. So I'm

706
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: a trained soldier. And at what point, fairly soon after

707
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: that you you were interested in zoology. I was always in.

708
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: It was into theology before I came to let's talk

709
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: about that, let's talk about exactly how that manifested itself.

710
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 1: And well, I was interested in hunting. That came on

711
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: very early. Is this your parents that hunted? Was this

712
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 1: summer in your family? Well, the only one? Well, remember

713
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,800
Speaker 1: they were in Russia. You can't get firearms easily in Russia.

714
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: My grandfather for a while had a shotgun, double ball,

715
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: shot shots, a few things. But I had from the

716
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: very beginning dreams of going out and hunting. And when

717
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 1: we were in Germany walking collecting mushrooms in the fortest

718
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: with my grandmother. I started mushrooming when I was this

719
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: high six years old, and I promised grandmother that when

720
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: I grew up, I would bring her game and deer

721
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: and fishing, and I did. Eventually. You've hit on a

722
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: few points. It's like this holistic life of wanting to

723
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: bake and wanting to learn the custom, and want to

724
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 1: learn about child life. That's right, and all the things

725
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 1: that I think that that's right. We hunting appreciate. I was,

726
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: you see, I was preparing myself in Germany already at

727
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 1: age fifteen to take the very very onerous hunting exam

728
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: by which you become a hunter in Europe. And by

729
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: the way, just a little thing about the European past.

730
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: In fifty that time when they began looking into the

731
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: literature on and began studying to become a hunter, I

732
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 1: learned the following that if you hunt in boarder regions

733
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: were poachers can across the border and return again safely.

734
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: These are very dangerous areas where foresters and hunters have

735
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: been killed in firefights. Yeah, And the instructions were that

736
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: if you over hunted in the water regions, you should

737
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 1: carry military cartridges, military caliber and in your pocket you

738
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: should have a strip of five armor piercing ammunition because

739
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: if a poacher takes covered behind the tree, you can

740
00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: kill him. Fifteen year old boy, that I'm a little

741
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: bit specious. Well, yes, because in Europe there has been

742
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: quite a history of very very ugly poaching because the

743
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 1: wildlife was in the private domain and there was a

744
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 1: market for it and it could be sold, whereas in

745
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 1: North America. God, thanks you don't. Nevertheless, I'll guarantee you

746
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: that you still have illicit markets here on wildlife, and

747
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 1: I recommend you really reading the books by Terry Gross.

748
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: Terry is West, a wonderful author. He was the Frothwestern

749
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,439
Speaker 1: United States. He was in charge of the US Social

750
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 1: Wildlife Service law enforcement Unit. I invited him to the

751
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 1: University of Calgary. I still have a film of an

752
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 1: absolutely superlative talk that he gave. I highly recommend his books.

753
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: My God, They're good, yes, but they tell you just

754
00:44:54,719 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 1: how vicious even in the United States, the underground legal

755
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 1: um wildlife consumption looks like. Look. One of his top

756
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 1: catches was a judge. He caught lawyers. God knows what people. Yeah,

757
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 1: when you don't have the value systems set up, that's

758
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: right there, that's those things, how quickly those that's right,

759
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: that's right, that's right. We have many examples. That's right now. Um.

760
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 1: I'm very very strong on the thing that when you

761
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: hunt that they meet not be sold, you don't generate

762
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: the market. And I can only say that I'm very

763
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: I've been very, very fortunate that when I raised my

764
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 1: family and so on, I was able to raise them

765
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: largely on wild meat. It's so cute only wild meat

766
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: ran out that my children began to slip at the

767
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 1: beef they did, and my wife didn't like the bee

768
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: final very much. But that has very much happened in

769
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 1: my home as well. Kidding very much. We have gone

770
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,919
Speaker 1: through We have gone through years, maybe maybe eight years

771
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: that really we go out the dinner, you have a

772
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 1: stake or whatever. But when we go out, my wife

773
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: and I go out, we you know, we will go

774
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: to a steakhouse and get a steak beef. Of course

775
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,479
Speaker 1: that isn't venison. It's some other thing that I have killed.

776
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: It doesn't taste the same, completely different profile and different explainable, well,

777
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: it is explainable. It's very explainable amount. But let me

778
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: try as well not to be able to eat a

779
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: mountain sheep out of the canyons of Idaho, the sage

780
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: Brush canyons Ido. It is the foulest meat you will

781
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:36,359
Speaker 1: ever encounter, and you will eat the fingers off when

782
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: you eat the meat from a high, high elevation sheep.

783
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: You know why, up high you have the largest amount

784
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 1: of sunlight during the day, so the plants there are

785
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: continuously photosynthizing sugar. Then you also have very cold conditions

786
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: during the night, and the plants cannot metabolize that a way,

787
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: So the the plants up there are always sweet, and

788
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: that translates into the most beautiful meat of elk or deer,

789
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: or mountain sheep or mountain goat when they come from

790
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: the high mountains. Their superlative do you believe it? The

791
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: in the cattle industry where you know when you're eating it,

792
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: say you're eating a ribby steak from a cow, it

793
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 1: is that that the flavor profile of corn that we're

794
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 1: used to, the corn fed, grain fed animals were so

795
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: used to those flavor profiles in our meat that that

796
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 1: also explains a little bit of the difference between the

797
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: delicate nature and the difference between the wild meat. I

798
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: was more interested, not so much in the flavor, but

799
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: I was interested in the profile of um fatty acids

800
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: that you find. And venison and grass fed beef are

801
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: very much alike in terms of omega three fatty acids.

802
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 1: For instance, you see the amount in venison omega for

803
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: three to omega six is roughly one in four. But

804
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: when you get it from a fattening station, how do

805
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: you call them began, Well, that's a ranch, that's right.

806
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 1: You get one omega three to forty omega six. No good, Yeah, yeah,

807
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: no good. The best thing you can do is to

808
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: eat wild meat. You cannot do any better. Amen. Amen.

809
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: And that's and once you've become you know, for lack

810
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: of a better term, a conisseurs into different wild meat,

811
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 1: that's right, you're able to understand the nature of how

812
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: these things going to be. And and as you say,

813
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 1: we're arguing the other day about how much animals that

814
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: live and say the sage brush see taste of sage

815
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: brush handloper are historically damn For the first three antelope

816
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: that we got was shot by my two sons and

817
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: myself the first time we went hunting, and I was thrilled.

818
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: And then we tasted them. They were impossible to eat.

819
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: And now I went through weeks of trying to make

820
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: that meat edible. I put it into beer, it didn't work.

821
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: I put it into tomato juice. U discunk clothing in

822
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: the meat to juice. It didn't work. And one and

823
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: then a friend of mine in Germany, Wolth kung Shruder,

824
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: professor in Munich, wrote me a recipe and said, well,

825
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: try that, because our mountain people use this to tame

826
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: the wildest ibex in the worst shammy that they can't get.

827
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 1: So I tried that recipe and low and behold, it worked,

828
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 1: and this horrible meat became delicious. My children ate it,

829
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: so I said, not, this is great. I've wrote down

830
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: the recipe and sent it to Outdoor Life and they

831
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 1: sent me one thousand three d that that recipe has

832
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: been republished four times, and the last time in my book,

833
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 1: my antelo book. I've wrote an antelo book. That's right, Yes,

834
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,760
Speaker 1: I can tell you what it is. Basically, you start

835
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: with one liter of red wine and you add one

836
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 1: leader of of orange juice or apple juice to it,

837
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 1: and then you go and find um the or these

838
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 1: blueberries that you find the prickly um do you find

839
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: it here them all over the the your mountains. Put

840
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: a little handful of that inside. Then you put some

841
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:21,359
Speaker 1: carrots inside, some onions, and you boil it and let

842
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 1: it cool. Then you put your meat inside and you

843
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: have what actually happens is you it draws out the

844
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 1: albumen fraction. Yeah, and then I braised it. That was

845
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 1: the first and it worked. Wonderfully. You can use that

846
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: Brian twice. It won't work on the third time, but

847
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 1: you refresh it with some sherry wine, for instance here,

848
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,399
Speaker 1: and you boil it a second time, you take out

849
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: all the scum. You can use it, as said, twice beautifully,

850
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 1: but not not not any longer. But it does team back,

851
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: I'll guarantee you that. Yeah, And you feel like the

852
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: acidic nature of those it's hard. It's hard to say

853
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: what it is, but you do get a lot of

854
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 1: foam and form is albumen, so it extracts something. So

855
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 1: the bad taste appears to be associated with the album fraction.

856
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: But most of the time antelope a delicious. That's that's

857
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 1: the that's good to hear you say that. I was, Oh,

858
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: I love them. Agree to disagree with them, it's right now.

859
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 1: That's something that we often talk about out West. I've

860
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 1: had outfitters tell me that they have clients who shoot

861
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 1: antelope and they advise them not to eat it at all. Well,

862
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 1: I know that, you see, and that happened convergently. It's

863
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 1: so similar to the African antelope. It's almost embarrassing. The

864
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 1: courtship behavior of the grand gazelle of the of the antelope,

865
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 1: very very similar. But that's life. That's what you have

866
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 1: to get used to. Because convergent you get crazy things.

867
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 1: You know. The craziest thing of all is can you

868
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: imagine that the blue whale runs on the genome of pigs? No?

869
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: Now you do? Who could? Now? I do? No? You do?

870
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 1: This is the incredible thing. The basic genetics of the

871
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 1: whale is that of the hippo pig. There's related to

872
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: both families. And it's another way. It's the same genes

873
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: basically patent and programmed in a different way generate these

874
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:23,359
Speaker 1: unbelievably different creatures. And those for those of us who hunt,

875
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: we we just especially in this in this kind of

876
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 1: we're mostly always hunting ungli. Its right, they're so similar

877
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 1: yet so different. They have four hooves, but they're good

878
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: to eat, and they're all good to eat somehow. That's

879
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: when the African antelope similar problem is wonderful to I really,

880
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,439
Speaker 1: except with some exceptions. And I know how to handle

881
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 1: the damn sage brush. Oh yes, so let's let's uh,

882
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 1: we can go on million directions here. Let's let's get

883
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: back to UM where your learnings. You have PhD in zoology,

884
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 1: you start to you know, it's really not we're gonna

885
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: say developed, but start to hone in on your skills

886
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 1: as a zoologist, as a wildlife biologist, as an educator.

887
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: Talked to how that starts the maturity. Of course, when

888
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:17,280
Speaker 1: I came to Canada, came to rejoined the Saskatchewan opposite

889
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 1: our high school, Central Collegiate. What's the museum, the Natural

890
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: History Museum of of Saskatchewan. Quite came in there, and

891
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 1: of course I was wildly interested in anything Canadian wildlife.

892
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: I see an older gentleman standing there who's painting in

893
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: the background that I step up to him and I

894
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,240
Speaker 1: looked at it, and he turns and I turned greet

895
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 1: each other. And he was an Englishman that had come

896
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 1: as a young child to Canada. He had been from

897
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: a very well off family. He had sat on the

898
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: lap of Rudyard Kipling at one point as a child,

899
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: and he and I learned quite quite a bit of

900
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: painting from him at that time. But the important thing

901
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: was I mentioned the stones sheep to him and he

902
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 1: was aware, and I was aware of this um German

903
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: count that had hunted in the profit of region. He

904
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 1: had been a rancher at one point in St. John's

905
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 1: in that same general region. So he knew by minute

906
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,800
Speaker 1: that everybody talked about this year. Here is this German

907
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: count coming in and being taken away by the RCMP.

908
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,439
Speaker 1: We're all Canadian Mounted Police and being put into clink,

909
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: and so on so forth. So we had something in

910
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: common to start out. And I told him about the

911
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 1: book that this man had written, which of course he

912
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 1: couldn't read. I read read German. Let me put this way.

913
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 1: We became very good friends and visit him frequently, and

914
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 1: the director of the museum came by listened to it,

915
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,280
Speaker 1: and he said, well, you know what, with your interests,

916
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 1: you should be going to the Muncy Bridge, Columbia, to

917
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 1: my friend Ian mctagg at Cowen. To Ian mctag at Coown.

918
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 1: I went. When the time came, we became the best

919
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 1: of friends, and we were the best of friends till

920
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 1: he died, almost at the age of hundred. He became

921
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: my supervisor in the phdeam time, and of course I

922
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: spilled those means, and he also knew about the count.

923
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:20,879
Speaker 1: You see now I was somebody who told them more

924
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: about and he was fascinated by this. These are the

925
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: little bonds that united, you see, of course, and in

926
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 1: no time flat he took me into his museum in

927
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: Mctaget County. Was also a hunter, of course, and he

928
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,840
Speaker 1: was fascinated by mountain sheep. He had written the biggest

929
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 1: monograph on mountain sheep at that time, the Taxonomy of

930
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: Mountain Sheep, and I was fascinated by it. And so

931
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:44,959
Speaker 1: on the fourth and one thing led to the next,

932
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 1: so that when I graduated and was ready to go,

933
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: we made an arrangement for me to go to the

934
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: spots and study stone sheep. And I am the first

935
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:57,879
Speaker 1: scientist who has ever studied stone sheep, by the way,

936
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 1: and it was a place where we knew that in

937
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: winter some rams that assemble. There's all which we knew,

938
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: and we got there by aircraft and so on. But

939
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: by that time, of course, I was married, and I

940
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,280
Speaker 1: was very very I was kissed by the gods, believe

941
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 1: you me. That was still the NFT seven. When I

942
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: came to university, I saw this very very pretty girl.

943
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 1: She was a Nordic blonde. I thought she was I

944
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 1: thought she was Swedish, and as it turns out, she

945
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 1: thought I was Hungarian. And it turned out that we

946
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,879
Speaker 1: had come from the same city in Germany, Marburg, during

947
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 1: the at the end of the war. We not only

948
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,320
Speaker 1: came from the same city, we lived on the same mountain,

949
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,400
Speaker 1: probably within three yards of each other. We had experienced

950
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: the end of the world, the last bombing since on

951
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 1: the fourth Well, one thing left to the next. And well,

952
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:56,960
Speaker 1: we married and we lived a wonderful, wonderful life for

953
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 1: fifty three years. She passed away four years ago, and

954
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: we don't I'm sorry. I was kissed by the God.

955
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 1: You can hear it in your voice when you when

956
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,400
Speaker 1: you speak of her, and and the way that you

957
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: the way that you remember. Yeah. Well we have three children,

958
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 1: beauties all I've forgotten five grandchildren, and I'm a great grandfather.

959
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:25,440
Speaker 1: What has it feel to be a great grandfather. I

960
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: don't know, it does feel anything at all. It's just

961
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 1: simply wonderful to know about it, you know. And my

962
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: little great grandfather, this great grandson is half Native. My

963
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: second oldest granddaughter fell in love with a football player

964
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 1: who was a huge man, beautiful man, huge, but it

965
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 1: was Native and they married and he got uh and

966
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 1: I'll fortunately the marriage fell apart. But the little kid, well,

967
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 1: it's not that little he's not three years older, and

968
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 1: he is a boomer. He is bright, he's alert like

969
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 1: a wild animal. He's going to be a wonderful one time.

970
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 1: I have my own three year old wonderful. He has

971
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 1: alert and bright And believe me, the wild food helps. Yes,

972
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:11,920
Speaker 1: your damn rights. Last night we were eating venison and

973
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 1: he justled it in and right came in after and

974
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: he just threw it on the ground. I thought, that's right,

975
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 1: we've made it. You've made it. I agree with you.

976
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: And all that you learned and all of you studied,

977
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: and all all the things you know about the wild

978
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 1: world and the wild places and animals. How much how

979
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: much do you gain from your family? Like? How much? Oh,

980
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 1: my god, inspiration? How much? You see? I was kissed

981
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: by the gods because my wife was brilliant and she

982
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 1: was um very very good in social matters. Yeah, and

983
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 1: what I'm so missing right now is a person to

984
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 1: talk to on the basis because we shared so many

985
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 1: interests together and said we lived in wonder life. I

986
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 1: cannot remember whether we ever quarreled. It just didn't exist.

987
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 1: Then she became her breast cancer and she was operated

988
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: on the remission, but it came back again. And then

989
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 1: I quit doing everything. I didn't answer telephone calls, I

990
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 1: didn't answer the emails. The only thing I did is

991
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:23,479
Speaker 1: I continued working on my book, on my second book,

992
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 1: by the way, on the human evolution, because she was

993
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 1: very interested in that. And we lived her life a

994
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 1: very quiet contentment of the highest quality until she passed away.

995
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:38,919
Speaker 1: So when she passed away, I threw myself into work.

996
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 1: And yes, I'm flying high again professionally. I have published

997
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 1: and published in speeches and spoken so on the woth

998
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: and well into all songs. But um I married nine

999
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:57,440
Speaker 1: and in my wife and I went into the spots

1000
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 1: Ez where I spent then the next two years in

1001
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: the wilderness. And well it was real wilderness because my

1002
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 1: next door neighbors were two Indian families, talltan families that

1003
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 1: lived forty miles away, two days by dogs lad to

1004
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 1: reach my cabin. Yeah, And when they came and they

1005
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 1: told me about, well, if you have troubles you come

1006
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:20,640
Speaker 1: to us, Well that's two days travel. But if you

1007
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 1: want to go and go to Telegraph Creek, then you

1008
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 1: look at that mountain, Well you got around the left

1009
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 1: side of that mountain and then you've got to go

1010
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 1: on under thirty kilometers of the hundred miles or something

1011
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 1: like that. It was long distance. That tells you how

1012
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: empty the landscape was. And the landscape was filled with wildlife.

1013
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: This is filled with sixties before before this has been touched. No, no,

1014
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 1: see that was This is where all of us in

1015
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 1: my taget count, my deepest friend, professor of Vladimir Creina,

1016
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 1: the great Great plant E Colleges, we were also innocent

1017
01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:01,439
Speaker 1: because this was so empty of human beings, this vast land,

1018
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:04,479
Speaker 1: and so rich in wildlife. We thought we were looking

1019
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: at something original. No, no, we were not. What we

1020
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 1: were looking at was a man made artifact. I can't

1021
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: explain it to you. Okay, it is today now this

1022
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 1: area that was so filled of wildlife, where we saw

1023
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 1: hundreds of caribou bulls, and one day think about this area, rich,

1024
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 1: rich place, rich, rich, very very Let's try. Let's try

1025
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 1: try me try, Let's try to get you an idea.

1026
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: Um I had closely videotaped and therefore three hunts in

1027
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 1: Siberia for snow cheap, and they all were repetitive in

1028
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 1: the following way, magnificent sheep country. Wherever you looked, and

1029
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 1: not a single sheep anywhere. They traveled for days on

1030
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 1: end without seeing a wild life. If they saw anything,

1031
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 1: it might have been a reindeer, maybe a U or two.

1032
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 1: And they were so happy when they found four rams

1033
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: killed a ram, of course, and they were successful in

1034
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 1: so this was successful hunt. But I began then looking

1035
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 1: at other hunts which are recorded in similar facts, the

1036
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:24,919
Speaker 1: same thing for days on end, no game, magnificent game

1037
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 1: country everywhere now and they're a black bear, a brown bear.

1038
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 1: And when you find something, it's two or three rams

1039
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 1: or four rams. In one case it was eight rams,

1040
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 1: and they were the first ram band I met in

1041
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 1: this but eas was twenty two and the one next

1042
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 1: over the next valley system was fifteen. I spent eight

1043
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:52,000
Speaker 1: weeks studying that ram band. Every day I sat opposite

1044
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: them in the mountain with spotting scope because then I

1045
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 1: was studying the behavior of these animals have tried. Nobody

1046
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 1: knew what the signaling meant that they were doing, and

1047
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: that is what I cracked at that time. Now, twenty

1048
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 1: two rams for me, yeah, and I could find I

1049
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:11,840
Speaker 1: could have found other ram bands at that time, yeah,

1050
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 1: and four rams most of the time. In one case

1051
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 1: it was eight rams with the u con territory. What's

1052
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 1: going on, But what you're looking at as a predator pit.

1053
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 1: And this these hunts took place in classical predator pits

1054
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 1: because the predator pit wolves primarily take down the wildlife

1055
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 1: and it is bears that keep it down. The reason

1056
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 1: is this, you have tremendous growth of vegetation because there's

1057
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: nothing to eat it. Yeah, and the bears live off

1058
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 1: that vegetation. And when the fawning season comes along, when

1059
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 1: the season of births come along, the bears move into

1060
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 1: what little ungulate populations are left and they eat on

1061
01:03:56,120 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 1: the calves and fauns and kids, whatever they can find.

1062
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:05,560
Speaker 1: And they're very fixed efficient. We have beautiful, beautiful studies

1063
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: in Alaska now of where bears were instrumented with cameras

1064
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 1: and it shows that they were killing forty calves in succession. Yeah.

1065
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: One of the worst one only killed in three weeks

1066
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:23,400
Speaker 1: seven calves. Yeah. Yeah, they are extremely good predators. So basically,

1067
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:29,200
Speaker 1: you generate a um predator pit and the black bear

1068
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 1: or grizzly bear maintains it. Now, how do you get

1069
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 1: around the predator pit. First of all, the native people

1070
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 1: were the ones that had done it. Originally, And the

1071
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 1: best that I can tell you is they specialized in

1072
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 1: going and removing pups from the dens of wolves and

1073
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 1: keeping them down. And they spoke about Banks Island a

1074
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 1: beautiful example. They have a ritual almost and they kill

1075
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 1: every cup except too. They eat the cups that delicious apparently,

1076
01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 1: and they use the skin for babe clothing. Yeah. The

1077
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 1: other one is I just told you about the trappers

1078
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 1: which had dog teams all over There were no ski

1079
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 1: doos available, so where do you had trappers with their

1080
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 1: dog teams. You also had the reduction of wolves. Now

1081
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:22,880
Speaker 1: here's some unbelievable data. When you get rid of wolves,

1082
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:29,000
Speaker 1: you increase the number of surviving and then multiplying m

1083
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:35,000
Speaker 1: prey tenfold, that's a hellful lot of big game that

1084
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 1: comes out. Yeah, okay, So the predator pitch is generated

1085
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 1: then by the wolves, and what opposes it is human

1086
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 1: hands that try to preserve dogs in this case, and

1087
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:52,480
Speaker 1: the other one which was quite widespread was our guides

1088
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: and outfitters used horses. And when they got horses in

1089
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 1: the back country, that was precious, very very precious, and

1090
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 1: they to ensure that their horses did not get killed

1091
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 1: by wolves. So in this Patizi where I was, we

1092
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 1: had about twenty years people that went with dog sleds

1093
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 1: in winter, looked after horses and made sure the horses

1094
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:16,520
Speaker 1: were So after twenty years we had an enormous abundance

1095
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 1: of stone sheep, of mountain goats, of caribou, of moose.

1096
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 1: There were still wolves there, of course, because even if

1097
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 1: you reduce wolves by somewhat, you have a very great

1098
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 1: payback coming out. Yeah, and because of this payback, there's

1099
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:38,880
Speaker 1: wildlife available, and the wolves that are remaining actually the

1100
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:42,600
Speaker 1: few wolves that generally remained grown to giants, so this

1101
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:46,920
Speaker 1: is another sign that they had been released artificially. So

1102
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:52,480
Speaker 1: what happens was is that we retained numerous wilder populations

1103
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 1: only where we were able to control the wolves during wintertime.

1104
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:58,920
Speaker 1: And this happened most frequently where there were trappers or

1105
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:04,920
Speaker 1: where the guide's an outlet with horses. The secret And

1106
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:07,080
Speaker 1: is this the most pronounced to this point in your

1107
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 1: life that you've seen this kind of balance take place

1108
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:12,320
Speaker 1: or counterbalance or imbalance. Well, yeah, you see, the spots

1109
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 1: Easy became a national park and we thought that would continue.

1110
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 1: It didn't complete collapse. It did today. It's the wildlife desert.

1111
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:22,320
Speaker 1: You have a friend of mine rode three weeks through

1112
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:25,439
Speaker 1: the spots easy without seeing a single game of head

1113
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 1: of big game. But he saw the old old shed

1114
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:32,800
Speaker 1: antlers of the caribou everywhere along the trails, surprising to you.

1115
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 1: Did you see it coming from your time spent there? No,

1116
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 1: we didn't, you see, we didn't. We were so innocent.

1117
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 1: I was innocent about wolves until four years into retirement.

1118
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 1: It's when a pack of wolves showed up around my

1119
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 1: house on Vancouver Island that I couldn't believe my eyes.

1120
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 1: The dear absolutely panicked, and the panic was shown in

1121
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:04,480
Speaker 1: at night time by deer. Having vacated all the places

1122
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 1: they were, they were now in around the barns of

1123
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:11,000
Speaker 1: my neighbors. There was one deer beside deer another deer,

1124
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:15,400
Speaker 1: and we use flashlights, floodlights, and we were about eighty

1125
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 1: paces away so we could see it. These frightened animals

1126
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 1: were clustering themselves around the barns of my friend. That

1127
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:26,840
Speaker 1: lasted about three or four days, and all the things

1128
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:29,599
Speaker 1: that stressed us to those animals, and then these animals

1129
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:33,519
Speaker 1: went into the suburb behind us. Young up to that

1130
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:37,519
Speaker 1: time we were four years living their wonderful place while

1131
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:42,080
Speaker 1: the paradise. But we had flower bit and I had

1132
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 1: planted um apple trees. Well, within a few days all

1133
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 1: that was gone because for the very first time we

1134
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:52,720
Speaker 1: were flooded by deer, which had not happened previously. They

1135
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 1: were about eighty m trumpeter swans that came to the

1136
01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 1: meadows around us. They vanished right away, and they didn't

1137
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 1: come back till the wolf pack was killed out, and

1138
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:04,639
Speaker 1: then only one half of them came back. And when

1139
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:08,519
Speaker 1: the next pack came, they left and never came back again. Yeah,

1140
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,080
Speaker 1: I mean, these are dramatic things which I have observed

1141
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:13,760
Speaker 1: with my own eyes. You see, and you and you

1142
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 1: talk about in some of your writing about wolves that

1143
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:20,640
Speaker 1: first you must see these things. First, you must have,

1144
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 1: you know, personal experience and perspective that heather the way

1145
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:29,680
Speaker 1: that you've help And there there's the color kind of

1146
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 1: I hope this color is at least your current view

1147
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:35,560
Speaker 1: on wolves. But you wrote there's a French saying that

1148
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 1: he who desires a beautiful park must have a very

1149
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:41,439
Speaker 1: sharp acte and a heart of stone. Right. I think

1150
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:44,280
Speaker 1: that's a wonderful saying. That's exactly what you have to

1151
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 1: do in wildlife management and you feel, you feel, particularly

1152
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:50,439
Speaker 1: in walls, we should heed that advice absolutely. You see,

1153
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:54,320
Speaker 1: we can recreate. You see right now what happened in Yellowstone.

1154
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:58,519
Speaker 1: You had in the northern hood about nine d elk.

1155
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,360
Speaker 1: They down to four thousand, but the four thousands were

1156
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:04,639
Speaker 1: outside the park on private land, on the ranch lands,

1157
01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:07,160
Speaker 1: away from the wolves. That's why they survived. You say,

1158
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:11,360
Speaker 1: your moose in Yellowstone virtually died out. I rode for

1159
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:16,400
Speaker 1: a whole week daylight too, for from dawn to dusk

1160
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:20,080
Speaker 1: in some of the finest moose country I have ever seen.

1161
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:23,120
Speaker 1: That would be now eight days. We didn't see a

1162
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:25,920
Speaker 1: single moose. We didn't see a single track, we didn't

1163
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 1: see a single feeding set. And that was the rotting

1164
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:31,599
Speaker 1: season of moose. That was the effect of wolves. Yeah,

1165
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:34,920
Speaker 1: in Band National Park when I was there doing my

1166
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,120
Speaker 1: studies on big horns, that was before wolves were present,

1167
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:41,720
Speaker 1: because wolves had been exterminated in the Band and they

1168
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:43,920
Speaker 1: came back in nineteen seventy two. And I stayed there

1169
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:48,720
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty three to sixty studying big horns, and

1170
01:10:50,439 --> 01:10:53,280
Speaker 1: we had about two thousand five dred elk. All the

1171
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 1: valleys were ringing with the bugle of elk during rotting season.

1172
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 1: After the wolves came in, the elk number dropped to

1173
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:07,519
Speaker 1: about three hundred. The elk ward hiding and they quit bugling. Okay, yeah,

1174
01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:12,799
Speaker 1: that's you talk about it. Low wolf to pray ratios.

1175
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:16,639
Speaker 1: Wolves grow, they grow very large. Oh god do they ever.

1176
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:22,200
Speaker 1: They become shy, very shy. They shunned humans absolutely, And

1177
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 1: like in this this equation leads to what what you

1178
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 1: write and and and talk about is like the rich

1179
01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:30,760
Speaker 1: landscape that we desire. Well, if you want to have

1180
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:33,439
Speaker 1: a rich landscape, you're going to have to do predator control. Yeah,

1181
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 1: and how do you define party control and what what is?

1182
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:40,320
Speaker 1: Obviously it's depending on the ecosyst Okay, let's put it

1183
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:47,920
Speaker 1: this way. You have now in the United States a

1184
01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:51,719
Speaker 1: park system that is complaining that they're losing bio diversity,

1185
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:55,000
Speaker 1: which means that that animals going extinct in the national

1186
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:58,800
Speaker 1: parks because you have to do nothing policy. This is

1187
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:03,639
Speaker 1: holy God will look after the park. Nature knows best.

1188
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:07,639
Speaker 1: That's the philosophy. It doesn't, by the way, it's rubbish.

1189
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 1: But on top of that, you have now the invasive

1190
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:14,760
Speaker 1: species and in the United States, according to your own

1191
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:19,720
Speaker 1: park records. You have about six thousand, five hundred invasive

1192
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:25,080
Speaker 1: species in your parks. See when you protect, that's what happens. Yeah,

1193
01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 1: that's why invasive species are invasive. That's right, And they

1194
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:30,800
Speaker 1: are in other ways. When you protect a large piece

1195
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:35,160
Speaker 1: of land and do nothing, it degrades over time. Yeah.

1196
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:40,759
Speaker 1: Now I will give you another example. Mark Wonderpol, colleague

1197
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 1: of mine in California. Twenty nine years ago, I mentioned

1198
01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:49,120
Speaker 1: that he bought a four acres on which there was

1199
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:53,679
Speaker 1: sixty clair plants, native and non native. Today, after twenty

1200
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,640
Speaker 1: eight years of hard work, he has two hundred and

1201
01:12:56,720 --> 01:13:00,360
Speaker 1: thirty five species of native plants and hundred eighty five

1202
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:02,880
Speaker 1: species for non native plants. And he says you can

1203
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:08,679
Speaker 1: control them. Well, what do you say about that? Biodiversity? See,

1204
01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:12,400
Speaker 1: this is human made. This is where you have a heart,

1205
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:15,720
Speaker 1: where you have a heart of stone and a very

1206
01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:19,040
Speaker 1: sharp acts. This is where you use a road to

1207
01:13:19,120 --> 01:13:22,479
Speaker 1: tiller in the spade and fire. And when you have

1208
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:26,920
Speaker 1: to with animals poison, God knows snares. I don't think

1209
01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:29,759
Speaker 1: you use those that at all, or traps or whatever

1210
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:32,639
Speaker 1: it is. You have to go in and play god.

1211
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 1: And if you go out to maximize biodiversity. You cannot lose, yes,

1212
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:41,960
Speaker 1: because then you retain everything. I recently went to Berkeley,

1213
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:45,800
Speaker 1: California and met with some animal rights activists, and I

1214
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:48,559
Speaker 1: wish you were there with me to explain these principles,

1215
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:52,040
Speaker 1: because there is a there is as we remove ourselves

1216
01:13:52,439 --> 01:13:57,519
Speaker 1: from these landscapes, as we push or are pulled away

1217
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:02,200
Speaker 1: from these relationships that you speak of. Yes, we even

1218
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:04,280
Speaker 1: me as a hunter, I believe that I really true

1219
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:06,400
Speaker 1: that I speak about health of ecosystems, and I try

1220
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:08,280
Speaker 1: to understand the balance. And I spent a lot of

1221
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:11,760
Speaker 1: my time thinking about this, but I feel inferior. I

1222
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:15,479
Speaker 1: feel unable to understand. No, don't worry, you can't understand.

1223
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:18,040
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the prepredator pisa Us talking about

1224
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:22,840
Speaker 1: the wolves come in destroy the wildlife. Basically, the bears

1225
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 1: maintain the destruction and you have an empty landscape for

1226
01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:33,840
Speaker 1: decades or decades on end. Why well, before the extinction

1227
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 1: of the megafauna about years ago. Yeah, wolves were a

1228
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:42,040
Speaker 1: very very rare species on the landscape. They're very rare

1229
01:14:42,080 --> 01:14:45,880
Speaker 1: in piantological records. Why we get a hint from Siberia.

1230
01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:51,360
Speaker 1: In Siberia natives to Tungus venerate the tiger. Why because

1231
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 1: the tiger cleans out wolves, doesn't tolerate them on his territory,

1232
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:58,479
Speaker 1: and with the tiger present, they still have lots of wildlife.

1233
01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:01,080
Speaker 1: When they remove the tiger, the wolves come in and

1234
01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 1: sweeps away everything that is gives a hint. In other words,

1235
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:12,480
Speaker 1: the large cats, the lions, the tigers, the pumas, the jaguars,

1236
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:15,920
Speaker 1: the leopards, and so on, but also the predaceous bears

1237
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:19,800
Speaker 1: kept the number of wolves way way down. That's why

1238
01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:24,760
Speaker 1: the wolf has such an incredible reproductive capacity and incredible

1239
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:27,400
Speaker 1: capacity to spread. And one reason he's such a very

1240
01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:30,880
Speaker 1: smart animal because over time he's been he was always

1241
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:33,559
Speaker 1: in the last two million years, wolves were rare. They

1242
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:40,400
Speaker 1: were controlled. Once the his his natural enemies were removed

1243
01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:43,000
Speaker 1: died out. Once we got rid of the lions and

1244
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:49,080
Speaker 1: the predationous bears, wolves exploded and that's the result. The

1245
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 1: wolf is therefore literally an animal out of control. What

1246
01:15:54,560 --> 01:15:59,400
Speaker 1: would you say to those that have anthropomorphized that animal

1247
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:03,800
Speaker 1: and then believe that you know, believe in what's happening

1248
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:08,760
Speaker 1: in yellastone believe that you can set wolves into a

1249
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:13,000
Speaker 1: landscape and allow them to help control the balance of anglids.

1250
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:15,760
Speaker 1: Another there's no such thing because there's no balance wunglids.

1251
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:19,080
Speaker 1: There are no angelids left practically after the wolves are

1252
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:21,240
Speaker 1: through and by the way, and there are after a

1253
01:16:21,280 --> 01:16:25,560
Speaker 1: while no wolves either around because the bears ensure that

1254
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:27,439
Speaker 1: there is nothing for the wolves left to eat. You

1255
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:30,240
Speaker 1: see there, there there are many, none in this office,

1256
01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:32,720
Speaker 1: none in this room. But there are many in this

1257
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:36,479
Speaker 1: country that that's so care about wolves that they feel

1258
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:39,479
Speaker 1: like they should not be killed. Well, you see, this

1259
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:43,400
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with wildlife management. This is not

1260
01:16:44,240 --> 01:16:48,599
Speaker 1: a belief. Oh, this is not an action orientated belief.

1261
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:53,519
Speaker 1: This is a semi religious belief and the individuals spouts it.

1262
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:57,600
Speaker 1: But it's a very damaging belief because wolves out of

1263
01:16:57,720 --> 01:17:02,200
Speaker 1: control are enormously damage, not only destroying wildlife, but they

1264
01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:05,679
Speaker 1: destroy of course your cattle. They destroy sheep. The biggest

1265
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:09,400
Speaker 1: destruction in one night recorded from Europe just recently was

1266
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 1: four hundred sheep dead in one night. Yeah. Uh, And

1267
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:18,280
Speaker 1: of course we have here excessive killings also of elk.

1268
01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:21,400
Speaker 1: But you have nineteen elk and this includes surplus killing. Well,

1269
01:17:21,439 --> 01:17:24,160
Speaker 1: that's the sorts killing. That's right, we'll do that, that's right.

1270
01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:27,200
Speaker 1: So what we have if we want to have a

1271
01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:31,679
Speaker 1: live landscape with high biodiversity, you have to control predators.

1272
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:36,759
Speaker 1: You have to control invasive species, and this is something

1273
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:39,400
Speaker 1: that is an obligation. You cannot leave that to nature

1274
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:43,200
Speaker 1: because it won't work. We can have beautiful landscapes, and

1275
01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:46,320
Speaker 1: we have done that by accident in a sense. And

1276
01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:52,400
Speaker 1: I was the recipient of this. Uh you know, I

1277
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:55,760
Speaker 1: was stunned the first time I came out on the

1278
01:17:55,800 --> 01:17:59,320
Speaker 1: Spots Plateau and four hundred yards away across a little canyon.

1279
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 1: My we were freshly married. My young wife was standing

1280
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:04,439
Speaker 1: beside me then and we couldn't believe our eyes. There

1281
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:07,719
Speaker 1: was about three hundred yards across a body of milling

1282
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:12,479
Speaker 1: caribou bulls and they're moving antless formed the wall. That's

1283
01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:17,000
Speaker 1: what we had and this is gone, gone, completely gone today.

1284
01:18:19,120 --> 01:18:21,840
Speaker 1: When was the first time you kind of realized your

1285
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:24,240
Speaker 1: own place and all this and what you could achieve.

1286
01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:26,880
Speaker 1: Was there a time, Has it been recently or was

1287
01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:29,720
Speaker 1: there a time during your career, during all your works

1288
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:32,559
Speaker 1: that you realized kind of your place it was? I had.

1289
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:37,880
Speaker 1: I was totally innocent of wolves um till four years

1290
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:41,040
Speaker 1: after retirement. Now, when it wasn't the spots I saw

1291
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:46,080
Speaker 1: wolves every two weeks. Yeah, I decided to leave them alone.

1292
01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:47,640
Speaker 1: I wanted to see what they were doing, and of

1293
01:18:47,720 --> 01:18:51,479
Speaker 1: course they created panic that was taking for granted. The

1294
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:55,240
Speaker 1: sheep disappeared for three to ten days, the mountain ghosts disappeared,

1295
01:18:55,320 --> 01:18:59,200
Speaker 1: the moose disappeared. So what I mean that I accepted

1296
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:02,200
Speaker 1: that that's art of what is going on, and I

1297
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:07,679
Speaker 1: thought very very little about wolves. It was not till

1298
01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:12,600
Speaker 1: this band of wolves, four years after retirement, showed up

1299
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:15,519
Speaker 1: around our house when I saw the panic that it

1300
01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 1: caused amongst blacktailed deer, When I saw that in no

1301
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:24,160
Speaker 1: time flat, they had cleaned out the landscape of pheasants,

1302
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:29,040
Speaker 1: of rough grouse, of whip poor wills, another ground nesting

1303
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:33,240
Speaker 1: or ground resting birds were gone, of swans and sorts

1304
01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:35,479
Speaker 1: of forth. That well, what I did, of course, I

1305
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:38,479
Speaker 1: called Eric Klinghammer, my good friend, now the lady professor

1306
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:42,759
Speaker 1: Eric Klinghammer. He had created wolf Park in Battleground, Indiana,

1307
01:19:43,320 --> 01:19:45,400
Speaker 1: and I wanted to speak with him, and did, of course,

1308
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:48,160
Speaker 1: and we from then on communicated at least once a

1309
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:50,920
Speaker 1: month on the telephone, and I was relating what I

1310
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:54,000
Speaker 1: was seeing. Also spoke with Ray Coping or unfortunately also

1311
01:19:54,080 --> 01:19:58,240
Speaker 1: dead right now. About wonderful man and his wonderful wife

1312
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:01,800
Speaker 1: as well, and with Harry Martha Frank and the visitor

1313
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:04,760
Speaker 1: her In Martha Frank. Eventually both of them had they

1314
01:20:04,840 --> 01:20:08,800
Speaker 1: lived with wolves in their own rooms and they understood

1315
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:12,240
Speaker 1: the social behaviors of wolves cold. Yeah, So I was

1316
01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:15,960
Speaker 1: being coached at that point. I was the eye I

1317
01:20:16,120 --> 01:20:18,800
Speaker 1: was observing. At the same time, my colleagues, which were

1318
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:23,400
Speaker 1: really new wolves yeah, were there, and we were because

1319
01:20:23,439 --> 01:20:26,639
Speaker 1: they themselves never had an opportunity to discussed with anybody

1320
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:30,640
Speaker 1: what happens when wolves suddenly come to human contact, but

1321
01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:33,720
Speaker 1: the previously had not been This was an accident. There's

1322
01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:37,320
Speaker 1: an accident that here somebody trained in animal behavior was

1323
01:20:37,400 --> 01:20:43,120
Speaker 1: there and preserving and these wolves, my god, these rascals

1324
01:20:43,280 --> 01:20:47,320
Speaker 1: began to sit and watch us. I was totally bad.

1325
01:20:47,479 --> 01:20:49,720
Speaker 1: And then of course I was told, oh, yeah, we

1326
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:53,679
Speaker 1: know what that's going on. Wolves are site learners. Unlike dogs.

1327
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:57,639
Speaker 1: They learned so well that they can sit and watch

1328
01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:01,479
Speaker 1: you handle the locks on doors and they will open

1329
01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 1: the locks. You need two doors to keep both safely

1330
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:11,160
Speaker 1: out or in. They're very clever. So the wolf sits

1331
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:15,439
Speaker 1: and he observes you. That's the danger side. Now he's

1332
01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:18,200
Speaker 1: interested in you and what happens in of course, they

1333
01:21:18,240 --> 01:21:21,920
Speaker 1: get closer and closer and closer, and they come into

1334
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:25,799
Speaker 1: the settlements. They interact with dogs, they interact with cattle,

1335
01:21:25,880 --> 01:21:29,200
Speaker 1: and so I've seen cattle run through fences in order

1336
01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:33,400
Speaker 1: to escape wolves. How many have seen that? I've seen

1337
01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:38,760
Speaker 1: ultimately the ultimate side. When the first wolf pack was

1338
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:42,519
Speaker 1: almost destroyed, I was only one mayor left. You know

1339
01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:46,679
Speaker 1: what he did? He joined my neighbor's sheep herding dogs.

1340
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 1: He became number six in a group of five. Yeah,

1341
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:56,320
Speaker 1: do you feel like wolves and your experience are one

1342
01:21:56,320 --> 01:21:59,360
Speaker 1: of the better ways observing them? Learning them, the best

1343
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:03,840
Speaker 1: ways to honor stand all these principles of cohabitation? Of

1344
01:22:05,160 --> 01:22:09,400
Speaker 1: just are studying them? Is that the best information? Well,

1345
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:12,679
Speaker 1: you see the best information. But I was observing was new.

1346
01:22:13,240 --> 01:22:16,760
Speaker 1: Even my good friend, he said, if anybody else had

1347
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:18,479
Speaker 1: told him what I had observed, you called him a liar,

1348
01:22:18,840 --> 01:22:22,439
Speaker 1: Because where in North America have you got a trained observer,

1349
01:22:22,960 --> 01:22:26,519
Speaker 1: familiar with animal behavior, exposed to wolves which are beginning

1350
01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:29,879
Speaker 1: to colonize the area. And I was so lucky or unlucky?

1351
01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:32,320
Speaker 1: Would you worry to be there? At the right time. Yeah.

1352
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:37,760
Speaker 1: And so I developed an understanding that they would zero

1353
01:22:37,880 --> 01:22:41,160
Speaker 1: in on us and that they would approach us gradually, gradually, gradually,

1354
01:22:41,320 --> 01:22:43,920
Speaker 1: And I made sort of a step wise model. So

1355
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:46,760
Speaker 1: they begin by sitting down and watching you, yeah, and

1356
01:22:46,840 --> 01:22:49,439
Speaker 1: then they get closer and closer and on to forth.

1357
01:22:49,960 --> 01:22:53,960
Speaker 1: And the last stages are actually quite cute because that

1358
01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:56,759
Speaker 1: we didn't I didn't observe because we killed them before

1359
01:22:57,040 --> 01:22:59,519
Speaker 1: the stage came. But about a mile and a half

1360
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:03,400
Speaker 1: away Ins Island, little island of Vancouver Island where I live,

1361
01:23:04,280 --> 01:23:07,439
Speaker 1: two wolves came into a campground and there we could

1362
01:23:07,439 --> 01:23:11,480
Speaker 1: see the progression continuing because they came to the campground

1363
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:15,960
Speaker 1: and they approached people and they started to lick the

1364
01:23:16,080 --> 01:23:21,439
Speaker 1: exposed skin of people, and they tried to pull their clothing,

1365
01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:24,439
Speaker 1: and that went on for about three weeks, and then

1366
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:29,920
Speaker 1: they attacked. They attacked the person at night. He screamed

1367
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:35,120
Speaker 1: as he was being scalped, and people around him jumped

1368
01:23:35,160 --> 01:23:37,439
Speaker 1: out of their out of their tents. And so there

1369
01:23:37,479 --> 01:23:40,600
Speaker 1: was a camping ground and saved him and he was

1370
01:23:40,720 --> 01:23:43,160
Speaker 1: brought to Victoria Hospital. I think it was about eighty

1371
01:23:43,200 --> 01:23:47,559
Speaker 1: stitches were required to close his wounds, and the two

1372
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:50,960
Speaker 1: wolves were killed, and they were filled to the hilt

1373
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 1: with the fauns of black tail deer. They didn't kill

1374
01:23:55,920 --> 01:23:58,080
Speaker 1: because they were hungry. They didn't attack the human because

1375
01:23:58,080 --> 01:24:01,360
Speaker 1: they were hungry. They attacked because we're curious. They were learning.

1376
01:24:01,479 --> 01:24:04,640
Speaker 1: They we're learning. That's right now. This model is now

1377
01:24:04,800 --> 01:24:08,320
Speaker 1: known formally as the escalation model, and in Europe it

1378
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:12,040
Speaker 1: carries my name. But I reported it for the first

1379
01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:16,640
Speaker 1: time at a conference in two zero zero five Milwaukee,

1380
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:20,879
Speaker 1: I think it was September twenty seven. And the irony

1381
01:24:21,120 --> 01:24:25,000
Speaker 1: is that six years earlier, two colleagues, Bob tim and

1382
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:33,719
Speaker 1: Rex Baker in California, had observed diligently coyotes targeting children

1383
01:24:34,320 --> 01:24:38,200
Speaker 1: in urban parks, and they developed a model which was

1384
01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:41,920
Speaker 1: almost identical. Their model is six steps minded seven steps.

1385
01:24:42,400 --> 01:24:45,439
Speaker 1: We're good friends, we're laughing about it. How could we

1386
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:48,960
Speaker 1: so totally independently? But you see the important thing here.

1387
01:24:49,720 --> 01:24:53,200
Speaker 1: The little wolf and the big wolf use the identical

1388
01:24:53,320 --> 01:24:57,160
Speaker 1: method of targeting people. That's what came out of that. Yeah,

1389
01:24:57,680 --> 01:25:00,479
Speaker 1: and in Europe this is known the escalation model, and

1390
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:06,160
Speaker 1: everybody agrees that predicts why shouldn't it The wolves are

1391
01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:12,120
Speaker 1: aptrol wolves, why can't it. What do you think about

1392
01:25:12,280 --> 01:25:14,120
Speaker 1: before we move on to the North American mono, because

1393
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:18,920
Speaker 1: we certainly have to cover that in North America today,

1394
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:21,680
Speaker 1: specifically where you live in Canada and then in the

1395
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:26,439
Speaker 1: States here. How would you predict the future of wolves?

1396
01:25:26,439 --> 01:25:28,439
Speaker 1: How how do you look into the future and see

1397
01:25:28,520 --> 01:25:30,000
Speaker 1: where we are today and kind of where we need

1398
01:25:30,080 --> 01:25:35,880
Speaker 1: to move to. The horrible thing is that you are

1399
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:41,559
Speaker 1: going to You have legislated the presence of big wolves

1400
01:25:42,080 --> 01:25:44,800
Speaker 1: virtually everywhere with the small wolf exists. In other words,

1401
01:25:44,800 --> 01:25:47,320
Speaker 1: you're going to replace the coyote with the big wolf.

1402
01:25:47,439 --> 01:25:50,160
Speaker 1: The present, you're killing a thousand coyotes a day because

1403
01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:52,560
Speaker 1: there's such a nuisance. Do you think you're going to

1404
01:25:52,680 --> 01:25:57,000
Speaker 1: be living easier with the big wolf and the little wolf? No, okay,

1405
01:25:58,280 --> 01:26:01,920
Speaker 1: that's number one. Number two, You're going to completely devalue

1406
01:26:02,360 --> 01:26:06,639
Speaker 1: d value your public lands because your public lands today

1407
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:10,680
Speaker 1: are a rich source of human experience for hunters, for

1408
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:14,200
Speaker 1: hikers and so on, because there is wildlife in them. Yeah,

1409
01:26:15,120 --> 01:26:19,680
Speaker 1: that wildlife will disappear, or whatever wildlife is left will

1410
01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:23,479
Speaker 1: be winding up on private ranches. In other ways, you're

1411
01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:27,840
Speaker 1: going to create a predator pit throughout your country, and

1412
01:26:28,040 --> 01:26:31,439
Speaker 1: with you feel, but that point we're talking earlier, you

1413
01:26:31,560 --> 01:26:34,480
Speaker 1: feel that the rich will never stop trying to privatize

1414
01:26:34,479 --> 01:26:38,360
Speaker 1: wildlife or own wildlife. Correct And in other words, what

1415
01:26:38,479 --> 01:26:41,439
Speaker 1: you're doing now is with the wolf, because the prince,

1416
01:26:41,520 --> 01:26:45,680
Speaker 1: you're transferring what remains of wildlife onto private land, and

1417
01:26:46,280 --> 01:26:51,120
Speaker 1: wildlife is precious, absolutely precious, and those that have wildlife

1418
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:54,120
Speaker 1: eventually will use it in the marketplace, and it will

1419
01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:59,800
Speaker 1: become even more pressures. So the very very very simple

1420
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:03,920
Speaker 1: and environmentalism of today will see, for instance, the almost

1421
01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:07,240
Speaker 1: complete destruction of predators again on private land, because that's

1422
01:27:07,280 --> 01:27:10,200
Speaker 1: what the wild it will be. Yeah, and it may

1423
01:27:10,280 --> 01:27:15,200
Speaker 1: well be that pressures to privatize public lands will grow

1424
01:27:16,120 --> 01:27:19,120
Speaker 1: because and there will be few defenders because it's worthless.

1425
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:22,000
Speaker 1: You can't go hunting there anymore. Why should I be

1426
01:27:22,120 --> 01:27:25,439
Speaker 1: interested in maintaining that wild that does not remain if

1427
01:27:25,479 --> 01:27:30,280
Speaker 1: that habit had still defended. And besides that, you're proud

1428
01:27:30,320 --> 01:27:33,040
Speaker 1: Americans with your Second Amendment. Your second Amendment isn't worth

1429
01:27:33,120 --> 01:27:35,479
Speaker 1: the paper it's written on when you haven't a wildlife left.

1430
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:44,519
Speaker 1: Even in under communism, even under communism in Siberia and

1431
01:27:45,040 --> 01:27:48,120
Speaker 1: in Outer Mongolia, the people were still armed because they

1432
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:51,760
Speaker 1: needed it for wildlife. The gun was a way too

1433
01:27:51,840 --> 01:27:55,640
Speaker 1: great food which is is in my hands. If you

1434
01:27:57,320 --> 01:27:59,240
Speaker 1: you clean it, you eat it. If you don't want

1435
01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:01,960
Speaker 1: to eat it, you don't kill it. I've passed up

1436
01:28:02,200 --> 01:28:07,519
Speaker 1: enormous nobles of record bull moves. You wouldn't believe what

1437
01:28:07,640 --> 01:28:09,519
Speaker 1: I've had in front of me. There was no point

1438
01:28:09,600 --> 01:28:13,320
Speaker 1: killing them. I couldn't eat them or I had meat.

1439
01:28:13,760 --> 01:28:17,080
Speaker 1: I didn't need to kill them, so I didn't. Do

1440
01:28:17,160 --> 01:28:20,280
Speaker 1: you feel you know that this great, great pool for

1441
01:28:20,360 --> 01:28:23,400
Speaker 1: wildlife As as a hunter over the last few years,

1442
01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:26,240
Speaker 1: you know, I think under the two religious folks that

1443
01:28:26,280 --> 01:28:29,040
Speaker 1: I work with here, and then in learning my own

1444
01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:33,439
Speaker 1: motivations that I and when if someone would ask me,

1445
01:28:36,520 --> 01:28:40,120
Speaker 1: what do I think my purposes as a hunter? Maybe

1446
01:28:40,200 --> 01:28:42,400
Speaker 1: my greater purpose? I think my singular purpose is to

1447
01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:45,519
Speaker 1: eat get meat for my family and to myself. I

1448
01:28:45,600 --> 01:28:49,760
Speaker 1: think that's my personal purpose. That's why. So that's why

1449
01:28:49,800 --> 01:28:53,000
Speaker 1: a fish. There is a greater purpose though, and I

1450
01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:57,479
Speaker 1: think often that it might be to understand one the

1451
01:28:57,560 --> 01:29:02,040
Speaker 1: ecosystem on which I live, and then the greater ecosystems habitats,

1452
01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:06,280
Speaker 1: how these things connect together, and be able to articulate

1453
01:29:06,320 --> 01:29:10,200
Speaker 1: that the folks who are not outdoorsman, who do not hunt,

1454
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:15,479
Speaker 1: who do not fish, And and that understanding, my understanding,

1455
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:18,599
Speaker 1: that that maybe my greater purpose leads me to think

1456
01:29:18,600 --> 01:29:20,840
Speaker 1: about hunting in a different way. And when you talk

1457
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:25,800
Speaker 1: about the private lands, be the public lands. How wildlife

1458
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:29,600
Speaker 1: can be moved? You know, land ownership, wildlife knows no

1459
01:29:29,720 --> 01:29:33,439
Speaker 1: land ownership bounced. And as we manipulate predatory behavior, we

1460
01:29:33,479 --> 01:29:36,680
Speaker 1: create predator pits that can that can change the way

1461
01:29:36,720 --> 01:29:40,120
Speaker 1: we feel about these lands. And that's that's you have

1462
01:29:40,200 --> 01:29:45,760
Speaker 1: an empty landscape, believe you'll be it's empty. And if

1463
01:29:45,760 --> 01:29:48,559
Speaker 1: you know the difference, then it's painful. If you don't

1464
01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:50,920
Speaker 1: know the difference, if you're innocent about it. So I

1465
01:29:50,960 --> 01:29:56,479
Speaker 1: wrote to my colleague in Moscow, Benny MH. Lenny Buskin,

1466
01:29:57,080 --> 01:29:59,880
Speaker 1: with whom I published, by the way, good Russian friend,

1467
01:30:00,760 --> 01:30:03,800
Speaker 1: and I told you the story of the predator pit.

1468
01:30:03,880 --> 01:30:07,560
Speaker 1: And he said, you're right, you know the landscape. But

1469
01:30:07,640 --> 01:30:10,840
Speaker 1: you know what was so peculiar when you look at

1470
01:30:10,840 --> 01:30:15,080
Speaker 1: the landscape but its siberience, considered empty it it would

1471
01:30:15,120 --> 01:30:20,080
Speaker 1: be with willows and with fire weeds and with various trees.

1472
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:25,519
Speaker 1: Exactly that landscape generated dense dense, smooth populations in the

1473
01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:30,439
Speaker 1: Yukon for reasons that I told you it was humans,

1474
01:30:30,720 --> 01:30:37,200
Speaker 1: trappers controlling wolves. Okay, so the empty landscape became filled

1475
01:30:37,439 --> 01:30:41,800
Speaker 1: with creatures and became again in ecological miracle. If we

1476
01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:48,000
Speaker 1: controlled predators, it's pretty powerful. Well, it is, because it's

1477
01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:52,120
Speaker 1: when you compare it. You see, I have lived in

1478
01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:56,080
Speaker 1: all of these I've lived under conditions of extreme wildlife abundance,

1479
01:30:56,880 --> 01:30:59,479
Speaker 1: and I've lived under conditions of the green streme poverty

1480
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:01,640
Speaker 1: involved life. Right now in this country, we're in the

1481
01:31:01,680 --> 01:31:05,160
Speaker 1: best of times. I feel you're losing it right now.

1482
01:31:05,640 --> 01:31:07,639
Speaker 1: In fact, you're losing quite a bit already. You've lost

1483
01:31:07,680 --> 01:31:11,519
Speaker 1: a lot in Montana, and Colorado is next. And not

1484
01:31:11,640 --> 01:31:15,080
Speaker 1: only that, but you're saturating your landscape now with the

1485
01:31:15,760 --> 01:31:18,200
Speaker 1: both born diseases. The word it's a high dady disease.

1486
01:31:18,479 --> 01:31:21,720
Speaker 1: And believe you me, that is a horror story. And

1487
01:31:21,840 --> 01:31:24,360
Speaker 1: you see, here is again something that happened to us

1488
01:31:24,400 --> 01:31:27,400
Speaker 1: in Canada didn't happen to you. When I was a

1489
01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:31,679
Speaker 1: graduate student, we had quite a few cases of high

1490
01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:33,679
Speaker 1: daddy disease. I will explain to you in a moment

1491
01:31:34,360 --> 01:31:40,559
Speaker 1: in British Columbia, in Canada, and it was the General

1492
01:31:40,800 --> 01:31:44,600
Speaker 1: Hospital in Vancouver that had to treat treat the operations,

1493
01:31:45,120 --> 01:31:49,080
Speaker 1: and we had a professor James Adams, who was very interested.

1494
01:31:49,160 --> 01:31:51,560
Speaker 1: He made a specific study of their Dady disease and

1495
01:31:51,640 --> 01:31:54,760
Speaker 1: he went into these operating rooms with the doctors and

1496
01:31:54,840 --> 01:31:58,240
Speaker 1: he took the photographs of the operations. They are the

1497
01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:04,080
Speaker 1: most horrendous, horrendous things to see. And he came back

1498
01:32:04,120 --> 01:32:06,240
Speaker 1: with the shop talk about it. But let's explain to

1499
01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:09,439
Speaker 1: you had added disease in the first place. Had added

1500
01:32:09,520 --> 01:32:13,200
Speaker 1: disease comes from the dog tape worm. It's a tiny

1501
01:32:13,240 --> 01:32:16,560
Speaker 1: tape worm of which there are hundreds of thousands. In

1502
01:32:16,640 --> 01:32:20,439
Speaker 1: the gut, the rear gut of the wolf. They produce eggs.

1503
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:24,400
Speaker 1: They eggs are shed with the feces. They feces dries.

1504
01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:27,760
Speaker 1: The eggs become airborne and are distributed around the vegetation,

1505
01:32:28,520 --> 01:32:32,519
Speaker 1: and n l comes along feeds on the vegetation. These

1506
01:32:32,600 --> 01:32:36,240
Speaker 1: little eggs hatch inside, drill themselves into his blood stream,

1507
01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:38,760
Speaker 1: are caught by the first capillary bed, which is the

1508
01:32:38,840 --> 01:32:43,439
Speaker 1: liver and the lung and the brain. Occasionally, and now

1509
01:32:43,640 --> 01:32:47,040
Speaker 1: these tiny things develop into a cyst, and the cyst

1510
01:32:47,200 --> 01:32:51,840
Speaker 1: grows and grows and grows and becomes the size of

1511
01:32:52,200 --> 01:32:57,880
Speaker 1: a grapefruit or larger, eventually own and it er. When

1512
01:32:57,960 --> 01:33:02,599
Speaker 1: this is the lungs, particularly, breathing becomes difficult. The animals

1513
01:33:02,640 --> 01:33:05,760
Speaker 1: have a difficult time. They're caught easily by wolves. The

1514
01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:10,799
Speaker 1: wolves eat the animal, they devoured the lung and deliver

1515
01:33:10,920 --> 01:33:13,799
Speaker 1: and they devoured the cysts, and the cysts again develop

1516
01:33:13,960 --> 01:33:17,559
Speaker 1: in wolves into the adult and the cycle continues. Now

1517
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:20,759
Speaker 1: human beings. The first thing that we learned from Professor

1518
01:33:20,800 --> 01:33:25,040
Speaker 1: Adams was never to poke into the feces of a wolf. Never,

1519
01:33:27,160 --> 01:33:29,960
Speaker 1: because you liberate these eggs and you can inhale them

1520
01:33:30,000 --> 01:33:31,840
Speaker 1: and with the sputeum it comes out. You swallow the

1521
01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:36,559
Speaker 1: spute um. Now you have it. It's serious and there

1522
01:33:36,600 --> 01:33:39,559
Speaker 1: are many documented cations of this. Well, of course, that's

1523
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:43,040
Speaker 1: what why he was photographing this disease in the General

1524
01:33:43,120 --> 01:33:50,439
Speaker 1: Hospital in Vancouver. And first of all, these thists grow

1525
01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:54,360
Speaker 1: and they fill the body cavity and they begin to

1526
01:33:54,400 --> 01:33:56,920
Speaker 1: interfere the function of the organs and they have to

1527
01:33:57,000 --> 01:34:02,200
Speaker 1: be removed. But if one of the cysts bursts and

1528
01:34:02,360 --> 01:34:05,720
Speaker 1: even the little tiny sliver of the inside remains undetected

1529
01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:09,280
Speaker 1: in the peral, cavity of the patient, it grows into

1530
01:34:09,280 --> 01:34:13,000
Speaker 1: another system. So after you close up the patient, there's

1531
01:34:13,040 --> 01:34:19,000
Speaker 1: no guarantee that the disease will not return again. And hum.

1532
01:34:19,400 --> 01:34:24,200
Speaker 1: The the reason why we had that was the following

1533
01:34:24,240 --> 01:34:26,400
Speaker 1: We had no ski doos in those days because the

1534
01:34:26,479 --> 01:34:29,960
Speaker 1: trappers in the north had dog teams, and the dog

1535
01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:32,599
Speaker 1: teams were frequently fed the offer of moose or caribou

1536
01:34:32,640 --> 01:34:35,280
Speaker 1: or elk, whatever their shot and therefofore they were being

1537
01:34:35,320 --> 01:34:40,559
Speaker 1: fed the cysts, and therefore the dogs then were infected

1538
01:34:40,640 --> 01:34:43,960
Speaker 1: with it. They produced eggs that goes went into the

1539
01:34:45,240 --> 01:34:48,360
Speaker 1: harness by which the dog teams pulled the sled. And

1540
01:34:48,439 --> 01:34:51,439
Speaker 1: this was being handled by the human and he licked

1541
01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:55,439
Speaker 1: his hands or eight and he got it. It's a

1542
01:34:55,520 --> 01:34:59,360
Speaker 1: horrible disease. And if the greatest danger from the disease

1543
01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:03,519
Speaker 1: as when the house dog gets it. I'll show you

1544
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:06,400
Speaker 1: the scenario that is most likely happening here. You have

1545
01:35:06,560 --> 01:35:09,360
Speaker 1: elk coming out of the mountains in winter, living on

1546
01:35:09,439 --> 01:35:15,200
Speaker 1: private land on ranches. They will crowd the ranges the houses.

1547
01:35:15,479 --> 01:35:18,400
Speaker 1: I'll guarantee you that, yeah, because that's right. They're afraid

1548
01:35:18,439 --> 01:35:21,679
Speaker 1: of the wolves still there. Some of them may die

1549
01:35:21,920 --> 01:35:25,360
Speaker 1: unnoticed the far the ranch dog will find that we

1550
01:35:25,439 --> 01:35:29,280
Speaker 1: will eat the cyst in just the now, in seven weeks,

1551
01:35:29,400 --> 01:35:32,240
Speaker 1: he's going to pass these eggs on the lawn on

1552
01:35:32,360 --> 01:35:36,080
Speaker 1: the driveway, on the verandah he mentioned the house. The

1553
01:35:36,200 --> 01:35:39,559
Speaker 1: little baby that is there, Pitter patter, pitter patter, comes along,

1554
01:35:40,320 --> 01:35:42,960
Speaker 1: gets it into his mouth. And now he's got a

1555
01:35:43,080 --> 01:35:46,080
Speaker 1: load of cysts growing inside of him. It will take

1556
01:35:46,120 --> 01:35:49,880
Speaker 1: ten years before they grow large. So here's a ten,

1557
01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:53,719
Speaker 1: twelve or thirty year old now, yeah, and suddenly things

1558
01:35:53,840 --> 01:35:58,920
Speaker 1: don't really are very funny in his body. And during

1559
01:35:58,960 --> 01:36:02,519
Speaker 1: a play, hit something and one of the cysts bursts.

1560
01:36:04,680 --> 01:36:07,439
Speaker 1: About three of the cases, the child dies on the

1561
01:36:07,520 --> 01:36:12,000
Speaker 1: spot from anaphylactic shock. If it doesn't die, he is

1562
01:36:12,080 --> 01:36:14,799
Speaker 1: in a miserable position. He will have to be operated

1563
01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:17,000
Speaker 1: on and those cysts will have to be removed in

1564
01:36:17,080 --> 01:36:19,840
Speaker 1: one way or another, and there's no guarantee that it

1565
01:36:19,920 --> 01:36:24,679
Speaker 1: will come back. And these cysts operations will be will

1566
01:36:24,800 --> 01:36:28,920
Speaker 1: cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars. And that's what

1567
01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:33,200
Speaker 1: you're getting with the wolves right now, right now. Shock.

1568
01:36:33,400 --> 01:36:35,519
Speaker 1: So the first thing that you have to tell everybody,

1569
01:36:35,880 --> 01:36:39,559
Speaker 1: don't poke around in the feces of wolves. Ever, ever,

1570
01:36:39,760 --> 01:36:43,800
Speaker 1: ever stay away from it. You see that experience. My

1571
01:36:43,920 --> 01:36:48,320
Speaker 1: colleagues here have never had I got it. We all

1572
01:36:48,360 --> 01:36:50,519
Speaker 1: got it at the University of Bridge, Columbia because we're

1573
01:36:50,560 --> 01:36:54,000
Speaker 1: the specialist who was investigating that disease, who had some

1574
01:36:54,120 --> 01:36:59,680
Speaker 1: of the most shocking slices sing. Now, this is one

1575
01:36:59,760 --> 01:37:04,519
Speaker 1: of the dangers and these this right now, you will

1576
01:37:04,600 --> 01:37:09,840
Speaker 1: have infection rate right now of your wolves between sixty. Yeah.

1577
01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:15,240
Speaker 1: So about eight years nine years ago, the Montana legislator

1578
01:37:16,200 --> 01:37:18,920
Speaker 1: there was a special committee asked me to speak to that.

1579
01:37:19,200 --> 01:37:22,640
Speaker 1: I presented it together with the chief veterinarian of the

1580
01:37:22,760 --> 01:37:27,599
Speaker 1: province of British Columbia, doctor Chantier, Helen Schwantier, wonderful lady,

1581
01:37:28,240 --> 01:37:31,280
Speaker 1: and we made a presentation here in Montana. It was

1582
01:37:31,320 --> 01:37:33,760
Speaker 1: actually over the telephone, but I shipped them. And by

1583
01:37:33,760 --> 01:37:36,720
Speaker 1: the way, you are absolutely welcome to my presentation. I

1584
01:37:36,800 --> 01:37:40,920
Speaker 1: have it still. I'll give it to you please. I

1585
01:37:41,040 --> 01:37:45,360
Speaker 1: still have it, and I explained in detail this disease. Yeah,

1586
01:37:45,680 --> 01:37:50,600
Speaker 1: so your legislature was familiar with that. Now you have

1587
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:53,719
Speaker 1: had a lot of biologists were one of the problems

1588
01:37:53,760 --> 01:37:57,840
Speaker 1: with your biologists as concerned to my Canadian biologies is

1589
01:37:58,200 --> 01:38:00,680
Speaker 1: your biologists have been raised by different pilosophy that we

1590
01:38:00,760 --> 01:38:04,080
Speaker 1: have been We in Canada were being traded a scientist.

1591
01:38:05,000 --> 01:38:09,800
Speaker 1: Your wild apendagers are trained as administrators, so they are

1592
01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:14,679
Speaker 1: very short at times, particularly of presidology. Who's teaching that? Yeah,

1593
01:38:15,760 --> 01:38:17,439
Speaker 1: you see, you are shocked by what I'm telling you

1594
01:38:17,560 --> 01:38:19,599
Speaker 1: know very much so. And that is what I knew

1595
01:38:19,800 --> 01:38:22,600
Speaker 1: as a graduate student. I mean, and there's there's so

1596
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:27,479
Speaker 1: many diseases and parasites, parasitic that we are aware of,

1597
01:38:28,120 --> 01:38:31,960
Speaker 1: you know, trick gnosis and things of this nature. Yes, yes,

1598
01:38:32,280 --> 01:38:34,920
Speaker 1: we're not aware of this that I've never heard it

1599
01:38:34,960 --> 01:38:37,439
Speaker 1: spoken of. Okay, now we who have heard it. Yeah,

1600
01:38:37,960 --> 01:38:40,160
Speaker 1: this is what I learned. This is what my colleagues learned.

1601
01:38:40,160 --> 01:38:44,040
Speaker 1: That's what we all learned because as budding wild apologists,

1602
01:38:44,120 --> 01:38:47,720
Speaker 1: this man, Professor Adams said, for the first thing, do

1603
01:38:48,080 --> 01:38:51,960
Speaker 1: not get infected yourself and respect the fact that every

1604
01:38:52,040 --> 01:38:56,759
Speaker 1: wolf feces is potentially infective. Yea. Also wash your hands.

1605
01:38:57,760 --> 01:39:01,760
Speaker 1: Now I have another reason. One distant relative in my

1606
01:39:01,840 --> 01:39:07,080
Speaker 1: family was killed by that disease. My grandfather was paranoid

1607
01:39:07,120 --> 01:39:12,400
Speaker 1: about it. No dogs in the house, please, my mother

1608
01:39:12,520 --> 01:39:18,000
Speaker 1: and my grandmother and my aunt whoards the doctor herself,

1609
01:39:19,120 --> 01:39:23,040
Speaker 1: very very very cautious about this. You see in Russia

1610
01:39:23,240 --> 01:39:26,240
Speaker 1: in the Far East, you have a different culture of

1611
01:39:26,439 --> 01:39:28,760
Speaker 1: keeping dogs in the house. First of all, they're not

1612
01:39:28,880 --> 01:39:32,439
Speaker 1: kept in the house. They kept outside. Secondly, in Finland

1613
01:39:32,600 --> 01:39:35,680
Speaker 1: and in Russia, when you came as a guest to

1614
01:39:35,800 --> 01:39:38,800
Speaker 1: a house, the first thing you got then was a

1615
01:39:39,320 --> 01:39:41,920
Speaker 1: basin of hot water and soap and you wash your hands,

1616
01:39:44,080 --> 01:39:48,040
Speaker 1: then you're permitted to come inside. The Many of the

1617
01:39:48,080 --> 01:39:52,400
Speaker 1: Arab nations considered dogs unclean. That's the reason why i'd

1618
01:39:52,439 --> 01:39:57,960
Speaker 1: ady disease. Yeah, why do you think this isn't more prevalent.

1619
01:39:58,000 --> 01:40:00,240
Speaker 1: I could be mistaken and just have no us to it.

1620
01:40:00,320 --> 01:40:02,240
Speaker 1: But why is this not a more profit And what

1621
01:40:02,360 --> 01:40:06,080
Speaker 1: are the administrators there have to say about it? Well,

1622
01:40:06,160 --> 01:40:08,960
Speaker 1: first and form, it's not the administrators, it's your biologists

1623
01:40:09,000 --> 01:40:12,960
Speaker 1: where they have belittle this because if you just handle

1624
01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:17,439
Speaker 1: wolves by and large, you may be contaminated. You may

1625
01:40:17,520 --> 01:40:21,519
Speaker 1: not be contaminated. The real danger comes from the dog

1626
01:40:22,160 --> 01:40:26,800
Speaker 1: that has ingested infected offsera. Yeah, so when you have

1627
01:40:26,960 --> 01:40:29,640
Speaker 1: the condition, now you should never you should after you

1628
01:40:29,760 --> 01:40:35,160
Speaker 1: kill an elk, burn the visca and it's well, then

1629
01:40:35,240 --> 01:40:38,560
Speaker 1: then you you reduced it. Yeah, as I said, I

1630
01:40:38,640 --> 01:40:42,880
Speaker 1: have written a whole paper specifically outlining this and all

1631
01:40:43,080 --> 01:40:45,960
Speaker 1: other mitigating steps that can be taken. It's available. I

1632
01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:48,720
Speaker 1: know it's been where people have been concerned about it.

1633
01:40:48,840 --> 01:40:52,599
Speaker 1: They love that paper because it tells them something. It's available.

1634
01:40:52,640 --> 01:40:57,639
Speaker 1: I can give it to you please. Well, I'm glad too.

1635
01:40:58,080 --> 01:41:02,120
Speaker 1: That's a shocking story. That's not a story. It's a

1636
01:41:02,160 --> 01:41:04,479
Speaker 1: shocking way to hear of that of that disease and

1637
01:41:04,840 --> 01:41:07,759
Speaker 1: how it well. The other one, of course, is rabies,

1638
01:41:08,400 --> 01:41:12,680
Speaker 1: and a rabbit wolf is an incredible beast. First of all,

1639
01:41:12,760 --> 01:41:16,400
Speaker 1: they target your face. They don't eat you, They just

1640
01:41:16,479 --> 01:41:22,080
Speaker 1: buy two and unless you have immediate medical attention, you

1641
01:41:22,400 --> 01:41:26,400
Speaker 1: will die. And that was the fate of people hit

1642
01:41:26,520 --> 01:41:31,240
Speaker 1: by rabbit wolves made evil med evil times. Imagine the

1643
01:41:31,320 --> 01:41:34,120
Speaker 1: fear they had of wolves, of course, because they knew

1644
01:41:34,160 --> 01:41:36,280
Speaker 1: if there was a scratch from a wolf, you would die.

1645
01:41:37,760 --> 01:41:43,040
Speaker 1: So this fear that people had that new wolves was justified.

1646
01:41:44,240 --> 01:41:47,599
Speaker 1: There was no unjustified fear. And besides that, of course,

1647
01:41:47,880 --> 01:41:50,479
Speaker 1: the trouble in so many of the countries were that

1648
01:41:50,600 --> 01:41:57,000
Speaker 1: people were disarmed, and when they were disarmed, wolves can

1649
01:41:57,040 --> 01:42:00,080
Speaker 1: get the upper hand. An interesting case. It's to and

1650
01:42:00,680 --> 01:42:03,200
Speaker 1: because the wolves were venerated in Japan, there was like

1651
01:42:03,320 --> 01:42:07,760
Speaker 1: they were gods, semi gods. And the reason they had

1652
01:42:08,000 --> 01:42:16,040
Speaker 1: special temples and altars, it's all built for them, was

1653
01:42:16,240 --> 01:42:21,160
Speaker 1: that the peasantry was disarmed by the samurai. The peasants

1654
01:42:21,200 --> 01:42:24,479
Speaker 1: had no weapons and they could not deal with the

1655
01:42:24,600 --> 01:42:30,000
Speaker 1: marauding pigs and the marauding deer that destroyed their fields.

1656
01:42:30,680 --> 01:42:34,120
Speaker 1: So they prayed for wolves to come in. It was

1657
01:42:34,160 --> 01:42:37,760
Speaker 1: the holy animal because it helped them. Yeah, so you

1658
01:42:37,840 --> 01:42:40,920
Speaker 1: can see that here has is a culture that venerates wolves,

1659
01:42:41,360 --> 01:42:46,920
Speaker 1: and that very same culture after rabbit wolves, after wolves

1660
01:42:46,960 --> 01:42:51,559
Speaker 1: became rabbit. It's such a horrible experience, so horrible they

1661
01:42:51,640 --> 01:42:59,120
Speaker 1: exterminated wolf by gone. Yeah is that culture all? I mean,

1662
01:42:59,200 --> 01:43:02,920
Speaker 1: we we only have a cultural love for wolves at

1663
01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:05,800
Speaker 1: this point in aren't. Well you have. But it's a

1664
01:43:05,840 --> 01:43:09,320
Speaker 1: misguided culture, you see. And in part of it is

1665
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:15,320
Speaker 1: understandable because you say, your young biologists in the nineteen fifties,

1666
01:43:15,920 --> 01:43:19,320
Speaker 1: which we're starting to look at wolves and onto fourth

1667
01:43:19,560 --> 01:43:24,559
Speaker 1: and we're very enthusiastic about wolves and the um first.

1668
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:29,479
Speaker 1: I know these individuals personally when they were raising wolves.

1669
01:43:30,200 --> 01:43:33,679
Speaker 1: A baby wolf is the most charming thing you can imagine.

1670
01:43:34,400 --> 01:43:37,080
Speaker 1: And they remain charming till there about eight nine months

1671
01:43:37,080 --> 01:43:42,400
Speaker 1: of age, absolutely charming, wonderful little things. You know. After

1672
01:43:42,600 --> 01:43:46,400
Speaker 1: that they become adult and now they treat you as

1673
01:43:46,400 --> 01:43:49,720
Speaker 1: a rival and they will watch you. And if you

1674
01:43:49,800 --> 01:43:52,600
Speaker 1: have a table wolf at home between the ages of

1675
01:43:52,720 --> 01:43:55,719
Speaker 1: three to five, it's a guarantee that you will be attacked.

1676
01:43:56,800 --> 01:44:00,280
Speaker 1: If you put the wolf then down, you control them. Yeah,

1677
01:44:00,520 --> 01:44:02,479
Speaker 1: he's okay for the rest of his life, although he

1678
01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:05,599
Speaker 1: will still snap at you. So for instance, the when

1679
01:44:05,640 --> 01:44:11,080
Speaker 1: I visited the Mautha and Harry Frank, they are fourteen

1680
01:44:11,160 --> 01:44:14,720
Speaker 1: year old wolf had just died and a female, and

1681
01:44:15,520 --> 01:44:17,280
Speaker 1: I asked, are you going to have another one? And

1682
01:44:17,360 --> 01:44:20,720
Speaker 1: they both smiled and chuckled and said, look, we're now

1683
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:22,840
Speaker 1: sixty one. It was a long time to go a

1684
01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:28,479
Speaker 1: visit to them. By the time we sixty five, I

1685
01:44:28,520 --> 01:44:32,880
Speaker 1: don't know if we can withstand the attack that comes.

1686
01:44:33,120 --> 01:44:38,040
Speaker 1: And they raised the skirt and their pants and their

1687
01:44:38,200 --> 01:44:42,880
Speaker 1: legs were scarred from top two bottom with wolf bites.

1688
01:44:44,160 --> 01:44:47,040
Speaker 1: That's what you see. I love dogs. I cannot be

1689
01:44:47,160 --> 01:44:50,879
Speaker 1: without dogs, but I thank God that they are not wolves.

1690
01:44:53,840 --> 01:44:56,400
Speaker 1: You think about that relationship quite often, like what what

1691
01:44:56,680 --> 01:44:59,240
Speaker 1: what I love? I love animals, of course, that's why

1692
01:44:59,240 --> 01:45:01,400
Speaker 1: I'm an animal bere. First, I have tamed in the

1693
01:45:01,479 --> 01:45:05,320
Speaker 1: wild a fox, and oh, I had a ball with him.

1694
01:45:05,720 --> 01:45:09,479
Speaker 1: I tamed a weasel. Was the name Foxy. What's what

1695
01:45:09,560 --> 01:45:13,719
Speaker 1: I'll see if your name something like that? Foxy? Foxy

1696
01:45:13,800 --> 01:45:17,599
Speaker 1: and Foxy came regularly got two heads off lake trout.

1697
01:45:18,080 --> 01:45:22,680
Speaker 1: You see, I I was provisioning myself by going out

1698
01:45:22,800 --> 01:45:25,760
Speaker 1: and catching trout, or two to four pounds in weight

1699
01:45:26,360 --> 01:45:30,000
Speaker 1: a couple of trout. That what I did is I

1700
01:45:30,080 --> 01:45:32,599
Speaker 1: would cut off the head and the tail, cut down

1701
01:45:32,640 --> 01:45:35,880
Speaker 1: the middle and stick them into a hot oven, and

1702
01:45:36,000 --> 01:45:38,360
Speaker 1: that encrusted them on top and cooked them inside. It's

1703
01:45:38,400 --> 01:45:41,360
Speaker 1: a wonderful breakfast. But the head I kept for Foxy.

1704
01:45:42,040 --> 01:45:44,680
Speaker 1: And every time Foxy came, he got the head. And

1705
01:45:44,840 --> 01:45:48,600
Speaker 1: you have weaseley. I didn't call it. It didn'tn't have

1706
01:45:48,680 --> 01:45:51,599
Speaker 1: a name, but the way I the way things went

1707
01:45:51,680 --> 01:45:54,519
Speaker 1: with weasel. I had seen him around and about, and

1708
01:45:54,600 --> 01:45:57,040
Speaker 1: he was white with a little tip at the tail.

1709
01:45:57,040 --> 01:46:00,519
Speaker 1: He was long tailed weasel. And one day I came

1710
01:46:00,600 --> 01:46:05,479
Speaker 1: back and I couldn't believe my eyes. Um. Every morning

1711
01:46:06,439 --> 01:46:08,880
Speaker 1: it was wintertime. Every morning I left my cabin and

1712
01:46:09,000 --> 01:46:11,200
Speaker 1: went on snowshoes and so on. I cut off a

1713
01:46:11,240 --> 01:46:13,559
Speaker 1: moose steak or two and left them on the window

1714
01:46:13,600 --> 01:46:17,160
Speaker 1: sill to thaw out. Because there was fire in my stove,

1715
01:46:17,400 --> 01:46:20,080
Speaker 1: I just shut it down. It was nice warm, uh.

1716
01:46:21,280 --> 01:46:23,640
Speaker 1: And I came back one day and there was the

1717
01:46:23,720 --> 01:46:29,000
Speaker 1: empty plate. The door was closed, an empty plate. Where

1718
01:46:29,040 --> 01:46:31,920
Speaker 1: did the stakes go? I looked around and I saw

1719
01:46:32,040 --> 01:46:35,519
Speaker 1: one stake underneath the bed. Now, holy cow, how did

1720
01:46:35,560 --> 01:46:38,560
Speaker 1: you get legs to get underneath the bed? So I

1721
01:46:38,680 --> 01:46:41,920
Speaker 1: reached down, cleaned it out, fried it, ate it and on.

1722
01:46:42,200 --> 01:46:44,679
Speaker 1: It was very very fine. But where was the second stake?

1723
01:46:45,400 --> 01:46:49,640
Speaker 1: I couldn't find it? Well. The night came and I

1724
01:46:49,800 --> 01:46:53,000
Speaker 1: had two libraries flown in. I did a lot of reading, philosophy,

1725
01:46:53,000 --> 01:46:56,720
Speaker 1: et cetera. Was a wonderful time. And I'm sitting and

1726
01:46:57,439 --> 01:46:59,679
Speaker 1: I hope it had built the cabin and the floor

1727
01:46:59,880 --> 01:47:03,360
Speaker 1: was made from whipsog logs, but got the logs aren't even.

1728
01:47:03,760 --> 01:47:06,160
Speaker 1: There were some nice cracks in my floor, which was

1729
01:47:06,240 --> 01:47:08,400
Speaker 1: great because you just swept stuff over the top. It

1730
01:47:08,479 --> 01:47:12,560
Speaker 1: disappeared forever. Let's say perfect on perfect, that's right, and

1731
01:47:12,640 --> 01:47:14,360
Speaker 1: never see it again, Never see it again, that's right.

1732
01:47:14,680 --> 01:47:16,800
Speaker 1: And all of a sudden left and right off my

1733
01:47:16,880 --> 01:47:20,479
Speaker 1: heels is a crack. Outcomes a little black nose, into

1734
01:47:20,600 --> 01:47:23,400
Speaker 1: little black eyes, and swoop over top of my foot,

1735
01:47:23,439 --> 01:47:26,479
Speaker 1: a little white body and into the corner underneath the bed,

1736
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:35,200
Speaker 1: and then they here. That was my second stake. Oh weasel, okay, precocious,

1737
01:47:35,360 --> 01:47:39,240
Speaker 1: I of course tamed it, which was very quick. The

1738
01:47:39,520 --> 01:47:43,559
Speaker 1: little fellow understood it by three whistles. That when I whistled,

1739
01:47:43,600 --> 01:47:46,720
Speaker 1: he got fit, and then he didn't bother me. Then

1740
01:47:46,760 --> 01:47:48,960
Speaker 1: he could observe him to all my content whatever he

1741
01:47:49,080 --> 01:47:52,400
Speaker 1: was doing, weasel. It's also fun to watch them. Yeah,

1742
01:47:53,120 --> 01:47:55,679
Speaker 1: they oh yeah, they're they're very cute and very interesting things.

1743
01:47:55,760 --> 01:47:59,519
Speaker 1: And when I whistle, he came. So that's what's right,

1744
01:47:59,640 --> 01:48:04,960
Speaker 1: my oh whiskey Jack's of course around the cabin. There's

1745
01:48:05,000 --> 01:48:07,160
Speaker 1: no way to really transition to the North American model

1746
01:48:07,200 --> 01:48:09,680
Speaker 1: from this conversation, but we're gonna do it anyway. So

1747
01:48:09,880 --> 01:48:12,679
Speaker 1: this is what I spent two winters in the Spats,

1748
01:48:12,840 --> 01:48:17,839
Speaker 1: studying stone sheep and mountain goats and of course caribou

1749
01:48:17,920 --> 01:48:20,640
Speaker 1: and moose and everything else. But had studied moose before that,

1750
01:48:21,400 --> 01:48:23,840
Speaker 1: and moose is one of my favorites. It's a great,

1751
01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:27,200
Speaker 1: great speak with high regard about moose. I mean, I

1752
01:48:27,280 --> 01:48:29,639
Speaker 1: think you, oh, I love them. Of all the things

1753
01:48:29,640 --> 01:48:32,280
Speaker 1: that we've talked about thus far, like your love them,

1754
01:48:32,320 --> 01:48:35,960
Speaker 1: your love of Moses, absolutely very apparent. Well, they are

1755
01:48:36,040 --> 01:48:40,599
Speaker 1: all tay. Moose are incredible, incredible animals. You see if

1756
01:48:40,720 --> 01:48:45,120
Speaker 1: my my book Deer of the World, I wrote quite

1757
01:48:45,160 --> 01:48:48,160
Speaker 1: extensively about moose, and because I'm a German, I was

1758
01:48:48,240 --> 01:48:52,919
Speaker 1: able to get the experience from Europe into the English language,

1759
01:48:53,520 --> 01:48:56,160
Speaker 1: and there was quite a bit of that. You see,

1760
01:48:56,200 --> 01:48:59,920
Speaker 1: the moose was quite a cultural animal in Europe. For instance,

1761
01:49:00,400 --> 01:49:03,880
Speaker 1: in Sweden it was used for postal service in winter. Yeah,

1762
01:49:03,880 --> 01:49:06,280
Speaker 1: I was going to say that, And it was an

1763
01:49:06,320 --> 01:49:08,920
Speaker 1: attempt was made by one of the Swedish kings to

1764
01:49:09,040 --> 01:49:12,320
Speaker 1: put a whole regiment of dragoons on top of moose

1765
01:49:12,400 --> 01:49:15,800
Speaker 1: because they make a superlative and I mean it a

1766
01:49:15,880 --> 01:49:20,559
Speaker 1: superlative mount. And had that succeeded, I can just see

1767
01:49:20,720 --> 01:49:24,439
Speaker 1: this miracle weapon because when horses for the first time

1768
01:49:24,479 --> 01:49:30,000
Speaker 1: confront moose, they see a ghost and they spook. So

1769
01:49:30,240 --> 01:49:34,120
Speaker 1: if that cavalry regiment of dragoons would have run into

1770
01:49:34,200 --> 01:49:37,400
Speaker 1: another there would have been horses scattered from here up

1771
01:49:37,439 --> 01:49:40,519
Speaker 1: and down picturing this. That's right, but it failed because

1772
01:49:40,840 --> 01:49:45,680
Speaker 1: moose are very fickle in feeding, and that's the difficulty.

1773
01:49:46,080 --> 01:49:51,479
Speaker 1: They make a fantastic mount so fantastically. Yes, throughout history, Yes,

1774
01:49:51,640 --> 01:49:53,800
Speaker 1: this is this is common, this is history. I'm not

1775
01:49:54,200 --> 01:49:57,120
Speaker 1: I'm not putting anything onto you know, I don't think

1776
01:49:57,160 --> 01:50:00,840
Speaker 1: you are. It's very excited about this idea. And in Russia. Yeah,

1777
01:50:02,120 --> 01:50:07,760
Speaker 1: when the conquerors of severe began, they've they discovered that

1778
01:50:07,920 --> 01:50:11,559
Speaker 1: anybody mounted on moose could out around the Cossacks because

1779
01:50:11,600 --> 01:50:14,760
Speaker 1: the moose will run much faster and much more better

1780
01:50:14,880 --> 01:50:18,800
Speaker 1: over uneven terrain. Yeah. Now, if you take a tame

1781
01:50:18,880 --> 01:50:21,960
Speaker 1: moose and train him to carry a pack, you put

1782
01:50:22,040 --> 01:50:23,840
Speaker 1: on the pack. And the Russians have done that, by

1783
01:50:23,840 --> 01:50:27,720
Speaker 1: the way, They packed these moves with very delicate instruments,

1784
01:50:28,160 --> 01:50:33,000
Speaker 1: because that moose will carry that pack without the slightest

1785
01:50:33,600 --> 01:50:38,479
Speaker 1: movement of anything through swamp, he will swim through raging

1786
01:50:38,640 --> 01:50:43,000
Speaker 1: rivers with that, he will crawl underneath dead faults, he

1787
01:50:43,080 --> 01:50:45,639
Speaker 1: will slither over top of dead faults. In the evening,

1788
01:50:45,720 --> 01:50:51,519
Speaker 1: he will deliver you that pack undisturbed. That tame moves.

1789
01:50:51,640 --> 01:50:57,679
Speaker 1: That's right. How they so easy. Oh, there's such babies,

1790
01:50:58,439 --> 01:51:01,240
Speaker 1: some of the cute things. Ah there, they're wonderful. They're

1791
01:51:01,640 --> 01:51:06,240
Speaker 1: very very they're very curious. Yeah, they're very sweet and

1792
01:51:06,280 --> 01:51:09,600
Speaker 1: they follow you around about them. They are sweet and

1793
01:51:09,720 --> 01:51:12,000
Speaker 1: they have such a lovely song. You just make a

1794
01:51:12,040 --> 01:51:16,120
Speaker 1: fear they can. Yeah. So for instance, one baby moods.

1795
01:51:17,760 --> 01:51:21,160
Speaker 1: It was a little ball. Had learned that with my defeat,

1796
01:51:21,200 --> 01:51:23,599
Speaker 1: he can't get into the house. So he would call

1797
01:51:24,520 --> 01:51:27,920
Speaker 1: lift his legs, wait till they were cleaned, and then

1798
01:51:28,000 --> 01:51:30,480
Speaker 1: he went in and let dark sat down beside the fireplace.

1799
01:51:31,320 --> 01:51:34,200
Speaker 1: That was sort of the typical thing. They're very curious.

1800
01:51:34,640 --> 01:51:37,280
Speaker 1: They will follow you around. They put that big nose

1801
01:51:37,320 --> 01:51:40,040
Speaker 1: into everything that you have, and so and so forth.

1802
01:51:40,800 --> 01:51:44,479
Speaker 1: And to give you some examples, a forester raised one

1803
01:51:44,600 --> 01:51:48,640
Speaker 1: female and she loved to go hunting. I love to

1804
01:51:48,720 --> 01:51:51,360
Speaker 1: go hunting with him. If she heard a gun going

1805
01:51:51,400 --> 01:51:54,240
Speaker 1: off in the distance, she would take off. And the

1806
01:51:54,840 --> 01:51:58,479
Speaker 1: foresters in East Germany were very surprised how accurate she

1807
01:51:58,560 --> 01:52:01,240
Speaker 1: could track with her nose. Yeah, they said, she's as

1808
01:52:01,320 --> 01:52:04,160
Speaker 1: good as the best tracking blood track moose. Oh yeah,

1809
01:52:05,240 --> 01:52:07,439
Speaker 1: they can track. I'm losing it. This is the best.

1810
01:52:07,640 --> 01:52:11,120
Speaker 1: Oh god, now it gets even better because this forester

1811
01:52:13,320 --> 01:52:16,640
Speaker 1: um so when he took the shotgun, the moose was

1812
01:52:16,760 --> 01:52:19,840
Speaker 1: right there and they went out. But moose also have

1813
01:52:19,960 --> 01:52:22,679
Speaker 1: the habit and they don't kick that habit of suddenly

1814
01:52:23,080 --> 01:52:27,639
Speaker 1: up and they're gone for a little walk hundred miles away,

1815
01:52:27,680 --> 01:52:30,000
Speaker 1: I mean like that. Yeah, So the moose was gone

1816
01:52:30,040 --> 01:52:32,320
Speaker 1: for a while, and the forester happened to be in

1817
01:52:32,520 --> 01:52:34,719
Speaker 1: a boat and one of the canals and he's pulling

1818
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:37,920
Speaker 1: down and suddenly there the moose shows up. And the

1819
01:52:37,960 --> 01:52:42,040
Speaker 1: moose recognizes the foresters that's mother, and she jumps, turns

1820
01:52:42,080 --> 01:52:49,200
Speaker 1: over the boat. There you are. I can listen to

1821
01:52:49,320 --> 01:52:52,400
Speaker 1: moose stories like this one. This one, this one, yeah,

1822
01:52:52,439 --> 01:52:54,960
Speaker 1: this one's a bit tragic one. Last one. It's a

1823
01:52:55,000 --> 01:52:58,920
Speaker 1: bit tragic because she was a pest, no twice about it.

1824
01:52:59,400 --> 01:53:02,560
Speaker 1: And when the forester was transferred to another district that

1825
01:53:02,720 --> 01:53:05,719
Speaker 1: quite long distance away, they thought the moose would stay.

1826
01:53:05,960 --> 01:53:11,160
Speaker 1: She didn't. She found them or a long distance and

1827
01:53:11,280 --> 01:53:14,760
Speaker 1: they decided to this point, no, we do not want you. Now,

1828
01:53:14,880 --> 01:53:18,559
Speaker 1: you remember that every moose experienced that in his lifetime.

1829
01:53:19,560 --> 01:53:22,040
Speaker 1: There comes a point when there's a calf, the female

1830
01:53:22,080 --> 01:53:28,840
Speaker 1: says no more, and that moose understood and what happened next?

1831
01:53:29,240 --> 01:53:34,439
Speaker 1: Briggs tears to buy eyes. She appeared frequently at night

1832
01:53:36,520 --> 01:53:45,519
Speaker 1: standing under the window. Oh you see, still moved by that.

1833
01:53:46,400 --> 01:53:49,120
Speaker 1: This is what moose are. They are like a six

1834
01:53:49,240 --> 01:53:54,719
Speaker 1: ft dog. They're sweet, absolutely sweet. Oh, they make wonderful

1835
01:53:54,800 --> 01:53:58,240
Speaker 1: mounts and even the biggest bulls. Yeah, during the rut,

1836
01:53:59,600 --> 01:54:02,800
Speaker 1: that's a bit awkward at that time, But then I

1837
01:54:02,880 --> 01:54:05,880
Speaker 1: see pictures of a nice bull moose with antless flared

1838
01:54:06,160 --> 01:54:08,160
Speaker 1: being tamed around the house and the three year old

1839
01:54:08,240 --> 01:54:10,960
Speaker 1: kid being placed on his back and he runs around.

1840
01:54:11,680 --> 01:54:15,599
Speaker 1: I feel do you feel with moose? These are there

1841
01:54:15,800 --> 01:54:19,840
Speaker 1: with with every animal that can be labeled as gregarious. Well,

1842
01:54:19,880 --> 01:54:22,600
Speaker 1: I'll tell you the following when by the time I

1843
01:54:22,720 --> 01:54:26,600
Speaker 1: finished in bamp National Park with my big horns, the

1844
01:54:26,760 --> 01:54:30,160
Speaker 1: females physically try to keep me in the group, physically

1845
01:54:31,000 --> 01:54:35,000
Speaker 1: blocked my way, deliberately pushed me back in, and when

1846
01:54:35,040 --> 01:54:37,040
Speaker 1: they broke, they tried to follow me, and they followed

1847
01:54:37,080 --> 01:54:41,080
Speaker 1: me everywhere, and the males attacked me. Some people might ask,

1848
01:54:42,440 --> 01:54:46,600
Speaker 1: given your relationship to you've studied goats, you studied mountain goats,

1849
01:54:46,640 --> 01:54:52,120
Speaker 1: you studied wild sheep, you've studied moose, You studied. How

1850
01:54:52,160 --> 01:54:54,680
Speaker 1: do you still could be a hunter? I would not

1851
01:54:54,760 --> 01:54:57,320
Speaker 1: ask that, but some mighty how do you answer that question?

1852
01:54:57,560 --> 01:55:00,800
Speaker 1: How can you still moose? Knowing that brings it tears?

1853
01:55:02,240 --> 01:55:07,400
Speaker 1: The point, the point of the matter is hunting is provision.

1854
01:55:07,960 --> 01:55:11,880
Speaker 1: You bring in food. Yes, I will keep the antlers

1855
01:55:11,880 --> 01:55:16,080
Speaker 1: of a moose that I kill. It's a treasured member

1856
01:55:16,240 --> 01:55:20,120
Speaker 1: of one. I have no difficulties say that is food

1857
01:55:20,600 --> 01:55:23,320
Speaker 1: and the only obligation I have is to kill that

1858
01:55:23,400 --> 01:55:26,400
Speaker 1: animal as quickly as possible. That's my only obligation in

1859
01:55:26,480 --> 01:55:30,600
Speaker 1: this regard. And the other obligation is not to waste. Uh.

1860
01:55:31,360 --> 01:55:36,000
Speaker 1: Let's like overwhelmingly pragmatic. The first deer that I killed

1861
01:55:36,280 --> 01:55:39,880
Speaker 1: was a mule, your doll I brought back. Of course,

1862
01:55:40,440 --> 01:55:43,400
Speaker 1: Grandma and I were great pals, to say the very least.

1863
01:55:44,400 --> 01:55:46,320
Speaker 1: She took the head and she made head cheese out

1864
01:55:46,320 --> 01:55:47,880
Speaker 1: of it. Now, how many people will take the head

1865
01:55:47,920 --> 01:55:49,880
Speaker 1: of a mule they make headcheese out of it? Not many,

1866
01:55:50,040 --> 01:55:53,800
Speaker 1: not many. It's delicious head cheese. To this day, when

1867
01:55:53,840 --> 01:55:57,240
Speaker 1: I kill a buck and I do all the cutting

1868
01:55:57,320 --> 01:56:00,880
Speaker 1: myself and so on, the last thing that I do

1869
01:56:01,520 --> 01:56:04,480
Speaker 1: is I skinned the head and I carefully with a

1870
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:08,480
Speaker 1: very very sharp scalpel remove the edible meat, and that

1871
01:56:08,720 --> 01:56:13,400
Speaker 1: makes a magnificent stew. Magnificent as one of the best

1872
01:56:13,480 --> 01:56:16,160
Speaker 1: tasting stews you can head. It's only once a year

1873
01:56:16,280 --> 01:56:19,080
Speaker 1: or twice a year, depending how many bucks I killed.

1874
01:56:19,240 --> 01:56:20,960
Speaker 1: Now I kill one or two bucks a year. That's

1875
01:56:21,280 --> 01:56:25,960
Speaker 1: that's it. Well, nothing depends on the circumstances. But and

1876
01:56:26,080 --> 01:56:29,440
Speaker 1: I don't waste the bones. The bones are so wonderful

1877
01:56:29,560 --> 01:56:34,000
Speaker 1: in stock. In fact, I'm almost fanatical about bone stock.

1878
01:56:34,360 --> 01:56:37,960
Speaker 1: I boiled two big parts of bone stock a week.

1879
01:56:39,080 --> 01:56:40,920
Speaker 1: For the first thing I'll do when I get home

1880
01:56:41,200 --> 01:56:43,680
Speaker 1: is I'll be doing just that bone stock. Now. Of

1881
01:56:43,760 --> 01:56:45,680
Speaker 1: course you add a few more things like chicken feet,

1882
01:56:46,080 --> 01:56:49,280
Speaker 1: chicken gizzarts and so on. Pigfoot is a good thing

1883
01:56:49,360 --> 01:56:52,200
Speaker 1: so that you have a very gelatinous result. Of course,

1884
01:56:52,400 --> 01:57:01,840
Speaker 1: gin um um, turmeric and well, oh, all all other

1885
01:57:01,920 --> 01:57:04,800
Speaker 1: goodies into it as well. Usually there are three species

1886
01:57:04,840 --> 01:57:07,360
Speaker 1: of animals and seven eight species of plants which go

1887
01:57:07,400 --> 01:57:10,760
Speaker 1: into my stock. As such, it's very very healthy, and

1888
01:57:10,880 --> 01:57:15,680
Speaker 1: it has kept me free of especially colds and influences.

1889
01:57:16,200 --> 01:57:19,640
Speaker 1: Haven't had a cold enough for three years. Yeah, it's that.

1890
01:57:19,880 --> 01:57:23,000
Speaker 1: That's that's kind of let's talk about kind of the

1891
01:57:23,080 --> 01:57:26,280
Speaker 1: ethos of of our company and what we do and

1892
01:57:26,720 --> 01:57:29,280
Speaker 1: the reason I joined this, Yes, and I'm in Bozeman,

1893
01:57:29,440 --> 01:57:32,280
Speaker 1: and that we were sitting here is very much what

1894
01:57:32,400 --> 01:57:35,120
Speaker 1: you're talking about. The the idea that we can be

1895
01:57:35,240 --> 01:57:39,480
Speaker 1: pragmatic but also feel an emotion for this animal beating

1896
01:57:39,520 --> 01:57:41,320
Speaker 1: and taking up, and we can go a step further.

1897
01:57:42,560 --> 01:57:45,160
Speaker 1: And you are aware that I'm writing my second book

1898
01:57:45,200 --> 01:57:48,120
Speaker 1: on doom re evolution. Yes. So one of the things

1899
01:57:48,160 --> 01:57:49,960
Speaker 1: that I'm very much aware of is that we have

1900
01:57:50,160 --> 01:57:56,720
Speaker 1: biochemical pathways which evolved only because we ate meat. The

1901
01:57:56,720 --> 01:57:59,919
Speaker 1: first biochemical pathway, for instance, is will digest the digestion

1902
01:58:00,120 --> 01:58:03,920
Speaker 1: of elastin, which is found in muscle fibers and only

1903
01:58:03,960 --> 01:58:07,560
Speaker 1: in animals. And you and I share the same enzyme elastees,

1904
01:58:07,760 --> 01:58:10,680
Speaker 1: which suggested that tells you something. Yeah. The one that

1905
01:58:10,760 --> 01:58:15,280
Speaker 1: I really like, The one that I really like are

1906
01:58:15,280 --> 01:58:19,600
Speaker 1: the trans fats. Well, if you take trans fats in

1907
01:58:19,680 --> 01:58:22,600
Speaker 1: margarine or trans fats in oils, they are awful. They

1908
01:58:22,640 --> 01:58:25,760
Speaker 1: are very very bad for your health. Never eat the

1909
01:58:26,000 --> 01:58:30,320
Speaker 1: bloody things, but take a peek at what you find

1910
01:58:30,440 --> 01:58:34,640
Speaker 1: in male milk, or in cheese or in butter. There

1911
01:58:34,680 --> 01:58:37,920
Speaker 1: are trans fats in cheese and butter and milk. You

1912
01:58:37,960 --> 01:58:41,200
Speaker 1: know where they come from from natural hydrogenation in the

1913
01:58:41,320 --> 01:58:44,960
Speaker 1: room of the cow or the sheep or whatever it is,

1914
01:58:45,120 --> 01:58:48,080
Speaker 1: and you know what your body does with them. You

1915
01:58:48,280 --> 01:58:52,400
Speaker 1: have an enzyme specifically to pick up those trans fats

1916
01:58:52,760 --> 01:58:57,280
Speaker 1: and change them into conjugated lino laic acid, which you

1917
01:58:57,400 --> 01:59:02,280
Speaker 1: need for brain development. Now that tells me that we've

1918
01:59:02,320 --> 01:59:06,800
Speaker 1: been eating the fat of ruminants for a very very

1919
01:59:06,920 --> 01:59:11,520
Speaker 1: long time and you need you need, by the way,

1920
01:59:11,720 --> 01:59:14,240
Speaker 1: meat very much for brain development. That cannot be overstated.

1921
01:59:14,920 --> 01:59:18,320
Speaker 1: And we've talked about that here on this podcast with

1922
01:59:18,440 --> 01:59:21,080
Speaker 1: the Professor William von hippel Down and Queens when we

1923
01:59:21,080 --> 01:59:24,800
Speaker 1: talked about human evolutionary biology and kind of philosophy of

1924
01:59:25,760 --> 01:59:28,760
Speaker 1: and not only are those pathways created through that, but

1925
01:59:29,200 --> 01:59:33,520
Speaker 1: our our social structure, how we communicate with each other,

1926
01:59:33,560 --> 01:59:38,520
Speaker 1: how we set up our societies, was often driven by no. No.

1927
01:59:38,840 --> 01:59:43,400
Speaker 1: Hunting was vitally, vitally important of right from the outset

1928
01:59:43,480 --> 01:59:46,760
Speaker 1: in human evolution. The moment we became humans, we were killers,

1929
01:59:47,280 --> 01:59:52,320
Speaker 1: were such efficient killers that we dramatically changed the diversity

1930
01:59:52,360 --> 01:59:55,720
Speaker 1: of Africa and continued to chase to change it. I

1931
01:59:55,760 --> 01:59:57,400
Speaker 1: have written a whole chapter on that. I'm going to

1932
01:59:57,440 --> 01:59:59,400
Speaker 1: read it. Let's get that we gotta get before we

1933
01:59:59,440 --> 02:00:02,040
Speaker 1: go here, the North American Model A while left conservation

1934
02:00:02,080 --> 02:00:05,080
Speaker 1: because I would I would say that I believe most

1935
02:00:05,120 --> 02:00:08,440
Speaker 1: people will know your name from that, uh in the

1936
02:00:08,560 --> 02:00:10,240
Speaker 1: in in the sense of our audience, and then just

1937
02:00:10,320 --> 02:00:14,680
Speaker 1: in the general sense, because it is, in my mind,

1938
02:00:14,800 --> 02:00:19,080
Speaker 1: the most important set of principles that we have in

1939
02:00:19,160 --> 02:00:22,600
Speaker 1: wildlife and conservation and in any model across the world

1940
02:00:22,680 --> 02:00:27,480
Speaker 1: which you have vast experience, North American Model is Yeah,

1941
02:00:27,560 --> 02:00:31,360
Speaker 1: it's a model, and it is a real wonderful creation

1942
02:00:31,400 --> 02:00:34,720
Speaker 1: of North American society. It is a gift, a cultural

1943
02:00:34,800 --> 02:00:39,520
Speaker 1: gift to the world. Absolutely absolutely. Now when you we

1944
02:00:39,640 --> 02:00:42,080
Speaker 1: have we've had, we've just we've heard from Shane here,

1945
02:00:42,200 --> 02:00:44,800
Speaker 1: he called us earlier. We've had Shane on this podcast

1946
02:00:44,840 --> 02:00:47,480
Speaker 1: before to talk about the origins of North American Model,

1947
02:00:47,560 --> 02:00:50,440
Speaker 1: his role in marketing it. For lack of God, Thanks God,

1948
02:00:50,520 --> 02:00:53,200
Speaker 1: thanks Without changing it wouldn't have flown. You know what

1949
02:00:53,280 --> 02:00:56,480
Speaker 1: a voice he was, Yes, he wasn't. Also, John Oregon

1950
02:00:56,880 --> 02:00:59,120
Speaker 1: was another one of them. With those those people, it

1951
02:00:59,160 --> 02:01:02,240
Speaker 1: would have failed. Because I was condemned when I first

1952
02:01:03,080 --> 02:01:06,160
Speaker 1: published that model. Not Yeah. When I first published the

1953
02:01:06,200 --> 02:01:10,200
Speaker 1: Comprehensive Model, the wild of Society wouldn't review the book. Yeah,

1954
02:01:10,240 --> 02:01:13,000
Speaker 1: they took Shane and other and took of them on

1955
02:01:13,120 --> 02:01:16,680
Speaker 1: the road. And when they did basically that reference to conference, right,

1956
02:01:16,720 --> 02:01:19,840
Speaker 1: they did talk about these things. I am in debt forever,

1957
02:01:20,400 --> 02:01:22,280
Speaker 1: but that. Yeah, so let's talk about the you know,

1958
02:01:22,560 --> 02:01:25,200
Speaker 1: the origins of the model, where it came from, and

1959
02:01:25,240 --> 02:01:27,240
Speaker 1: then then get because some of the hardships you had

1960
02:01:27,320 --> 02:01:30,600
Speaker 1: pushing it for well, uh, let me put it this way.

1961
02:01:30,920 --> 02:01:35,600
Speaker 1: I was interested in the early early nineties, in the nineties,

1962
02:01:35,600 --> 02:01:43,960
Speaker 1: six and seventies about how to make wildlife, um, well

1963
02:01:44,760 --> 02:01:47,640
Speaker 1: pay for itself or it's a bad bay putting it,

1964
02:01:47,760 --> 02:01:50,680
Speaker 1: But how do I make wild that more valuable? And

1965
02:01:51,200 --> 02:01:54,400
Speaker 1: in my innocence in those days, I thought that maybe

1966
02:01:54,520 --> 02:01:56,520
Speaker 1: game farming would be a way to go. And I

1967
02:01:57,360 --> 02:01:59,839
Speaker 1: had God thanks, a bit of money, and I organized

1968
02:01:59,880 --> 02:02:04,440
Speaker 1: the conference where game farmers from South Africa, from Texas,

1969
02:02:04,760 --> 02:02:08,800
Speaker 1: from Alberta, places like England and son came and where

1970
02:02:08,840 --> 02:02:12,120
Speaker 1: we had a wonderful set of papers and discussions, and

1971
02:02:12,200 --> 02:02:13,800
Speaker 1: that was published by the i u C And in

1972
02:02:13,840 --> 02:02:16,280
Speaker 1: two volumes, and I was the editor. Fritz Walta, My

1973
02:02:16,320 --> 02:02:19,360
Speaker 1: dear friend was the editor as well, And as I

1974
02:02:19,520 --> 02:02:24,600
Speaker 1: was editing this, I suddenly realized, oh my god, to

1975
02:02:24,800 --> 02:02:30,160
Speaker 1: push that is an absolute idiocy in North America because

1976
02:02:30,280 --> 02:02:34,760
Speaker 1: what it does it would destroy your system of wild

1977
02:02:34,840 --> 02:02:37,240
Speaker 1: of conservation. Now you you didn't know that you have

1978
02:02:37,280 --> 02:02:39,120
Speaker 1: a system of wild of conservation. I was just gonna

1979
02:02:39,160 --> 02:02:42,320
Speaker 1: say that like we weren't aware that, in fact there were.

1980
02:02:43,280 --> 02:02:46,600
Speaker 1: The stimulus to write it down came from a discussion

1981
02:02:46,640 --> 02:02:50,200
Speaker 1: I had with two senior colleagues of the Canadian Wild

1982
02:02:50,240 --> 02:02:53,040
Speaker 1: of Service. They were pushing game farming, and I said

1983
02:02:53,080 --> 02:02:55,560
Speaker 1: to them, for heaven's sake, what are you doing. Don't

1984
02:02:55,600 --> 02:02:58,440
Speaker 1: you realize that you're destroying your system of world of conservation?

1985
02:02:58,480 --> 02:03:00,520
Speaker 1: And they both shot back me, we have no system

1986
02:03:00,560 --> 02:03:02,720
Speaker 1: of wildlife conservation. I said, you damn rights you have.

1987
02:03:02,800 --> 02:03:06,080
Speaker 1: When I'll write it down for you, take a break.

1988
02:03:06,160 --> 02:03:08,720
Speaker 1: We can take a brief moment to think about that statement.

1989
02:03:08,760 --> 02:03:12,640
Speaker 1: And this is after many of the like the key

1990
02:03:12,800 --> 02:03:16,440
Speaker 1: legislation of our time, that that built our models right

1991
02:03:16,920 --> 02:03:20,600
Speaker 1: in other ways, what I did was I summarized that

1992
02:03:20,840 --> 02:03:23,800
Speaker 1: existing model the genius had. The model is not I,

1993
02:03:24,080 --> 02:03:27,840
Speaker 1: it's you, yeah, not me. Well, no, it has been

1994
02:03:29,120 --> 02:03:32,360
Speaker 1: You see, all the principles that model have gone through

1995
02:03:32,440 --> 02:03:38,200
Speaker 1: the heart school of democratic debate. They survived. That is

1996
02:03:38,320 --> 02:03:40,920
Speaker 1: not a person that this world who has the wisdom

1997
02:03:41,320 --> 02:03:44,879
Speaker 1: to construct that model. It could only have happened culturally

1998
02:03:44,960 --> 02:03:47,560
Speaker 1: over time. And you reverse and if you reverse time

1999
02:03:47,640 --> 02:03:49,720
Speaker 1: and listener to this podcast, will will know we talked

2000
02:03:49,720 --> 02:03:52,200
Speaker 1: about this often. You reverse time. You think about in

2001
02:03:53,280 --> 02:03:59,360
Speaker 1: and thirty seven, the first National Wildlife Conference Together Together

2002
02:03:59,440 --> 02:04:04,080
Speaker 1: the Lazy. That's right, But no American could have written

2003
02:04:04,120 --> 02:04:08,920
Speaker 1: that model. No, your Americans who wrote about that had

2004
02:04:08,960 --> 02:04:10,920
Speaker 1: a totally different thing. And you can look at Aldo

2005
02:04:11,040 --> 02:04:14,200
Speaker 1: Leopold's book Game Management yea, and take a look at

2006
02:04:14,320 --> 02:04:19,200
Speaker 1: Larry hans Jahn's introduction where he speaks about this. It's

2007
02:04:19,240 --> 02:04:22,400
Speaker 1: a totally different way of looking at it. Yeah. Well

2008
02:04:23,040 --> 02:04:26,680
Speaker 1: I was. I'm European, as you know, and the I

2009
02:04:26,800 --> 02:04:30,680
Speaker 1: was very familiar with the hunting, very deeply familiar with

2010
02:04:30,720 --> 02:04:36,360
Speaker 1: the hunting in Europe. And when I wrote that model,

2011
02:04:36,760 --> 02:04:42,200
Speaker 1: basically when I started it, I contrasted it what you

2012
02:04:42,320 --> 02:04:46,520
Speaker 1: do in North America comparing what you do in Europe. Yeah,

2013
02:04:47,320 --> 02:04:51,640
Speaker 1: and wrote that down. So for instance, you have the

2014
02:04:52,200 --> 02:04:56,200
Speaker 1: wildlife large wildlife largely except for for in the well

2015
02:04:56,480 --> 02:04:59,400
Speaker 1: for also in the public domain. But you don't have

2016
02:04:59,480 --> 02:05:03,320
Speaker 1: that in Europe, although by law it should be. The

2017
02:05:03,480 --> 02:05:07,480
Speaker 1: reality is while there is privately controlled yea. So it

2018
02:05:07,640 --> 02:05:10,160
Speaker 1: was one step after the other. And I first wrote

2019
02:05:10,520 --> 02:05:13,240
Speaker 1: out a model with four steps, then I thought about it,

2020
02:05:13,360 --> 02:05:16,200
Speaker 1: eventually developed it to seven steps, which are found in

2021
02:05:16,320 --> 02:05:21,200
Speaker 1: my book, which I published in McTaggart Cowen together and

2022
02:05:21,360 --> 02:05:23,720
Speaker 1: there I had the most detailed in some regards that

2023
02:05:23,760 --> 02:05:25,920
Speaker 1: still is one of the most detailed accounts of the

2024
02:05:25,960 --> 02:05:28,400
Speaker 1: North American system. While of conservation, it had, by the way,

2025
02:05:28,960 --> 02:05:32,280
Speaker 1: a review of chronic wasting disease. It had a review

2026
02:05:32,360 --> 02:05:35,160
Speaker 1: of the tuberculosis outbreaks and there and this is you know,

2027
02:05:37,120 --> 02:05:41,080
Speaker 1: that's right, that's right, that's right because most of your

2028
02:05:41,640 --> 02:05:45,480
Speaker 1: chronic bastics is basically spread by game farms, was somebody

2029
02:05:45,560 --> 02:05:48,080
Speaker 1: said in the United States, nicely, c w D is

2030
02:05:48,080 --> 02:05:51,920
Speaker 1: spread by trucks very much, but well and only quarter

2031
02:05:51,960 --> 02:05:53,880
Speaker 1: five This moral in a way, the fact that it's

2032
02:05:53,960 --> 02:05:57,240
Speaker 1: driven by like your study, you know, your studies and

2033
02:05:57,320 --> 02:05:59,960
Speaker 1: game farms. And then well I probably expended to papers

2034
02:06:00,200 --> 02:06:04,520
Speaker 1: yeah on it. So and the very last one that

2035
02:06:04,640 --> 02:06:07,240
Speaker 1: by that and was quite accepted. I presented at an

2036
02:06:07,280 --> 02:06:11,720
Speaker 1: international conference in Ireland because one of the gentleman who

2037
02:06:11,760 --> 02:06:13,720
Speaker 1: invited me had studied and he said, this is the

2038
02:06:13,760 --> 02:06:15,920
Speaker 1: best model we know in the world, and why don't

2039
02:06:15,960 --> 02:06:20,760
Speaker 1: you expound on it? And I emphasized there its role

2040
02:06:20,880 --> 02:06:24,880
Speaker 1: in public health because most of the human diseases we

2041
02:06:24,960 --> 02:06:28,120
Speaker 1: have come from wildlife or tame animals or domestic animals. Yeah,

2042
02:06:28,400 --> 02:06:30,160
Speaker 1: and the best thing you can do from a perspective

2043
02:06:30,240 --> 02:06:32,880
Speaker 1: public health, the best thing we could have ever done

2044
02:06:33,280 --> 02:06:36,800
Speaker 1: is to keep all our wildlife wild, not in That's

2045
02:06:36,840 --> 02:06:40,520
Speaker 1: what CUT comes from. And today we are faced with

2046
02:06:41,080 --> 02:06:46,160
Speaker 1: the enormous dilemma. No one was talking about c W

2047
02:06:46,280 --> 02:06:48,680
Speaker 1: d well. I had the first review of that. You

2048
02:06:48,760 --> 02:06:51,600
Speaker 1: can read it. And once I have at the behest

2049
02:06:51,640 --> 02:06:55,720
Speaker 1: of Shane Mahoney, you're talking about you predicting. When you

2050
02:06:55,840 --> 02:06:59,400
Speaker 1: read it, you're like, well, this this is ten fifteen

2051
02:06:59,440 --> 02:07:03,040
Speaker 1: years before this thing is pop fort and here are

2052
02:07:03,160 --> 02:07:07,680
Speaker 1: here's someone calling to to bear what CWD can that

2053
02:07:09,080 --> 02:07:12,880
Speaker 1: I first warned about the disease in in my book

2054
02:07:13,000 --> 02:07:16,360
Speaker 1: l Country, page hundred sixty nine. Please read. In those

2055
02:07:16,480 --> 02:07:19,560
Speaker 1: days the disease mode it was not even known as

2056
02:07:19,640 --> 02:07:24,000
Speaker 1: chronic wasting disease. It was called some kind of a scrapy. Yeah. See,

2057
02:07:24,480 --> 02:07:27,200
Speaker 1: and I had done my homework on the German side.

2058
02:07:27,720 --> 02:07:30,600
Speaker 1: See that is the advantage of having another language at times. Yeah,

2059
02:07:30,880 --> 02:07:32,560
Speaker 1: the Germans had been very much concerned with the t

2060
02:07:32,760 --> 02:07:36,320
Speaker 1: s S. I realized, oh my god, what is coming

2061
02:07:36,400 --> 02:07:41,600
Speaker 1: our way? And I warned in that. I was told

2062
02:07:41,720 --> 02:07:44,840
Speaker 1: later on that a game farmer who loved my writing

2063
02:07:45,200 --> 02:07:48,760
Speaker 1: came to that spot read and burst out into red

2064
02:07:48,840 --> 02:07:53,360
Speaker 1: face and ripped the book apart. Too bad. Yeah, I

2065
02:07:53,400 --> 02:07:57,080
Speaker 1: mean t SCS. It's something that ts S we now

2066
02:07:57,240 --> 02:08:02,320
Speaker 1: very much understand. But but i'm, you know, having but

2067
02:08:02,400 --> 02:08:05,440
Speaker 1: eight years old, but we're not ten years old. Whatever.

2068
02:08:06,360 --> 02:08:10,000
Speaker 1: But to think back that far, that these kind of

2069
02:08:10,120 --> 02:08:13,600
Speaker 1: things bore the you know, for you to codify that

2070
02:08:13,880 --> 02:08:17,800
Speaker 1: that model came from an understanding of game farms, understanding

2071
02:08:17,840 --> 02:08:20,920
Speaker 1: of disease like cw D, and then this is what's

2072
02:08:21,000 --> 02:08:26,480
Speaker 1: driving this is incredibly it's remarkable to me. But at

2073
02:08:26,520 --> 02:08:29,320
Speaker 1: the same time, it was still futile, you say, because

2074
02:08:29,400 --> 02:08:33,320
Speaker 1: we still have not controlled the the c blood you

2075
02:08:33,360 --> 02:08:38,080
Speaker 1: d pre onto spreading, spreading, and the dangers are so

2076
02:08:38,280 --> 02:08:42,800
Speaker 1: acute to our economy because Norway has already banned all

2077
02:08:43,640 --> 02:08:47,960
Speaker 1: products from straw and hay from areas with contemnitated with

2078
02:08:48,040 --> 02:08:51,160
Speaker 1: cw D two enter Norway. So that's your a big

2079
02:08:51,280 --> 02:08:54,400
Speaker 1: hint with a telephone pole. I believe you me. That's good.

2080
02:08:54,760 --> 02:08:56,840
Speaker 1: That's that's going to be a spider way, that's going

2081
02:08:56,920 --> 02:09:00,880
Speaker 1: to be something. Yeah and big Siically you have to

2082
02:09:00,960 --> 02:09:04,280
Speaker 1: blame now the politicians. They were very well informed. But

2083
02:09:04,320 --> 02:09:07,959
Speaker 1: of course game farmers thought, oh, forget this, stupid professor.

2084
02:09:08,320 --> 02:09:11,600
Speaker 1: We know better. You know that always happens always. And

2085
02:09:11,680 --> 02:09:15,880
Speaker 1: there's there's you know, CWD funding mechanisms in in I

2086
02:09:16,000 --> 02:09:17,880
Speaker 1: know in a proparation in Corcress right now that are

2087
02:09:17,880 --> 02:09:20,320
Speaker 1: sitting in committee, they're probably likely will knock it out.

2088
02:09:20,880 --> 02:09:23,080
Speaker 1: And this is just asking for more funding to do research.

2089
02:09:23,240 --> 02:09:25,880
Speaker 1: But that's the wrong thing to do. This is the

2090
02:09:25,920 --> 02:09:28,040
Speaker 1: wrong thing to do. We don't need any more research

2091
02:09:28,200 --> 02:09:33,440
Speaker 1: right now. We need action. We need implementing policies. And

2092
02:09:33,880 --> 02:09:36,440
Speaker 1: I have written that I'm chief author in fact on

2093
02:09:36,520 --> 02:09:40,080
Speaker 1: a policy document which you produced, which, by the way,

2094
02:09:40,480 --> 02:09:46,920
Speaker 1: your leading scientists acknowledged agreed with coorporated with us. They

2095
02:09:47,000 --> 02:09:50,320
Speaker 1: realize what we were doing. When you write a policy document,

2096
02:09:50,720 --> 02:09:54,880
Speaker 1: you write it in you spread out the understanding that

2097
02:09:55,000 --> 02:09:58,480
Speaker 1: you have and feed in the understanding from various places

2098
02:09:58,520 --> 02:10:00,880
Speaker 1: so that you can come out with several principles what

2099
02:10:00,960 --> 02:10:02,760
Speaker 1: do you have to do to stop the disease. And

2100
02:10:02,840 --> 02:10:05,560
Speaker 1: the first one is that you stop the transport of

2101
02:10:05,640 --> 02:10:08,920
Speaker 1: all animals and parts and so on, and that means

2102
02:10:09,200 --> 02:10:13,240
Speaker 1: like like it on all the commercial side. Yeah, that's

2103
02:10:13,240 --> 02:10:15,760
Speaker 1: the first step, and that's I think that's something where

2104
02:10:17,320 --> 02:10:19,680
Speaker 1: within the hunting community it's accepted that this is something

2105
02:10:19,840 --> 02:10:23,040
Speaker 1: that we should do. The hunting community is coming along,

2106
02:10:23,120 --> 02:10:25,920
Speaker 1: that's right. But you had you must you know that

2107
02:10:26,120 --> 02:10:29,440
Speaker 1: we have so much knowledge and headed for decades that

2108
02:10:29,600 --> 02:10:32,720
Speaker 1: we should have acted then. And I am horrified at

2109
02:10:32,760 --> 02:10:37,080
Speaker 1: the potential consequences of this. Yeah, but I'm sorry. I

2110
02:10:37,400 --> 02:10:40,400
Speaker 1: was not able to convince them people, and they threatened

2111
02:10:40,440 --> 02:10:42,200
Speaker 1: me and court and threatened my wife with death and

2112
02:10:42,240 --> 02:10:45,080
Speaker 1: god knows what else. Well, let's see. I don't want

2113
02:10:45,080 --> 02:10:46,920
Speaker 1: to go over too many of these types of things.

2114
02:10:47,040 --> 02:10:49,240
Speaker 1: But you had there was a lot of pushback to

2115
02:10:49,320 --> 02:10:51,280
Speaker 1: the North American model when you first presented correct and

2116
02:10:51,320 --> 02:10:53,640
Speaker 1: I think it's important to examine that pushback to kind

2117
02:10:53,680 --> 02:10:56,360
Speaker 1: of in its place and time. Why it happened. Well,

2118
02:10:56,440 --> 02:11:00,280
Speaker 1: it was based on misunderstanding. But the misunderstand think that

2119
02:11:00,320 --> 02:11:03,160
Speaker 1: a rose was because I spoke of this model of

2120
02:11:03,280 --> 02:11:07,560
Speaker 1: wild being in the public domain. Uh, this was considered

2121
02:11:07,600 --> 02:11:14,200
Speaker 1: to be politically socialism, and they accused me of of that. Well,

2122
02:11:14,240 --> 02:11:21,240
Speaker 1: of course, I am a great fan of courageous wildlife

2123
02:11:21,280 --> 02:11:26,280
Speaker 1: and environmental action on private land. In fact, one of

2124
02:11:26,360 --> 02:11:29,720
Speaker 1: the great things about North America, your country, is that

2125
02:11:29,880 --> 02:11:32,520
Speaker 1: we do have a large amount of land in private

2126
02:11:32,600 --> 02:11:37,040
Speaker 1: hand outside the public domain, because on these lands we

2127
02:11:37,160 --> 02:11:40,160
Speaker 1: have some of the most brilliant examples of what to

2128
02:11:40,360 --> 02:11:44,480
Speaker 1: do in order to rectify problems on public land. You see,

2129
02:11:45,520 --> 02:11:48,600
Speaker 1: I am enthusiastic about this. I am a great defender

2130
02:11:48,720 --> 02:11:55,080
Speaker 1: of private property precisely because here we can have actions

2131
02:11:55,240 --> 02:11:59,560
Speaker 1: that mitigate We can learn so much in the value

2132
02:11:59,560 --> 02:12:03,560
Speaker 1: it creates, tremendous value private I want the opposite. I

2133
02:12:03,640 --> 02:12:06,840
Speaker 1: am enthusiastically in favor of it. And at the time

2134
02:12:07,360 --> 02:12:09,120
Speaker 1: when you read, when you read like wildlife as a

2135
02:12:09,160 --> 02:12:12,360
Speaker 1: public trust resource, elimination of markets for game, these are

2136
02:12:12,440 --> 02:12:17,440
Speaker 1: things that are capitalist. Probably not digging too much, well,

2137
02:12:17,560 --> 02:12:22,240
Speaker 1: you see, don't accuse the capitalists. Most capitalists have a brain.

2138
02:12:22,720 --> 02:12:24,600
Speaker 1: If I have a chance to talk to the capitalists,

2139
02:12:24,680 --> 02:12:28,920
Speaker 1: why we should have no markets in game when he

2140
02:12:29,040 --> 02:12:33,040
Speaker 1: sees the consequences of having illegal markets, like the wonderful

2141
02:12:33,080 --> 02:12:36,400
Speaker 1: work by Terry Gross, who used to be your in

2142
02:12:36,480 --> 02:12:40,120
Speaker 1: the West, your head hauntcho in Wildlife but with the

2143
02:12:41,520 --> 02:12:44,480
Speaker 1: Wildlife Service in wildlf law enforcement, and he was very

2144
02:12:44,520 --> 02:12:48,600
Speaker 1: much involved in getting the Ashland Laboratory up and running.

2145
02:12:48,760 --> 02:12:52,960
Speaker 1: A great man. In his retirement he wrote fantastic books,

2146
02:12:53,240 --> 02:12:56,600
Speaker 1: I mean it, and each chapter dealt with an episode,

2147
02:12:56,640 --> 02:13:00,840
Speaker 1: and there you learn just how big an underground of

2148
02:13:00,960 --> 02:13:06,000
Speaker 1: illegal activities you have. No capitalist that I think who

2149
02:13:06,040 --> 02:13:11,120
Speaker 1: had a brain would disagree. Do you remember any any

2150
02:13:11,520 --> 02:13:14,920
Speaker 1: moments of where you harely had to defend the model

2151
02:13:14,960 --> 02:13:17,880
Speaker 1: that you felt were seminal? They were, They were cute,

2152
02:13:18,520 --> 02:13:22,600
Speaker 1: really really cute. One of the most outracious things that

2153
02:13:22,800 --> 02:13:27,920
Speaker 1: happened was in Texas. My friend Fritz Walter, very very

2154
02:13:27,960 --> 02:13:31,280
Speaker 1: dear friend. He was a mythologist, the great antelope expert,

2155
02:13:32,480 --> 02:13:35,160
Speaker 1: have retired Texas and m and the students put on

2156
02:13:35,400 --> 02:13:38,680
Speaker 1: a very nice seminar for him, and they asked me

2157
02:13:38,720 --> 02:13:42,320
Speaker 1: to be the keynote speaker. Fritz Walda and I were

2158
02:13:42,360 --> 02:13:48,200
Speaker 1: close friends for decades. That's I don't hear anything anymore.

2159
02:13:48,400 --> 02:13:51,680
Speaker 1: One day, I think getting close note to that, Let's

2160
02:13:51,720 --> 02:13:54,440
Speaker 1: give them a call. And I called and the poor

2161
02:13:54,560 --> 02:13:57,800
Speaker 1: students said, dr guys, we were told that if we

2162
02:13:57,880 --> 02:14:03,200
Speaker 1: were divite you all our conference funding would be taken away.

2163
02:14:05,000 --> 02:14:10,920
Speaker 1: Oh boy. Well I called Fritz and Sad and he said, look,

2164
02:14:11,480 --> 02:14:15,880
Speaker 1: if you don't come, I won't come. So I came

2165
02:14:17,240 --> 02:14:20,240
Speaker 1: and I gave one of the most innocent papers I've

2166
02:14:20,280 --> 02:14:24,600
Speaker 1: ever given my lifetime. I explained the reason why the

2167
02:14:24,760 --> 02:14:29,360
Speaker 1: Irish elk had these enormous antlers. We were in a

2168
02:14:31,120 --> 02:14:35,720
Speaker 1: h auditorium on high school, I think it was. And

2169
02:14:36,200 --> 02:14:40,960
Speaker 1: that's itself an interesting thing. Why Irish evolved these enormous antlers. Yeah,

2170
02:14:41,680 --> 02:14:44,360
Speaker 1: and as I was going off the stage out of

2171
02:14:44,400 --> 02:14:47,280
Speaker 1: the curtain, stepped to texts and colleagues can grab hold

2172
02:14:47,320 --> 02:14:49,120
Speaker 1: of my hands as well. We're all with you, but

2173
02:14:49,200 --> 02:14:54,280
Speaker 1: I cannot be seen with you. You're an anti hero.

2174
02:14:54,560 --> 02:14:58,880
Speaker 1: Well today I'm a hero in Texas because I also

2175
02:14:58,960 --> 02:15:05,520
Speaker 1: published how too Um Grow Trophy antless Baby, how it

2176
02:15:05,640 --> 02:15:09,520
Speaker 1: was done in Europe? Because I knew that intimately for

2177
02:15:09,560 --> 02:15:12,200
Speaker 1: a long time, and some Texas ranchers in the South

2178
02:15:12,280 --> 02:15:16,440
Speaker 1: of Texas read it. I thought it was very sensible tried,

2179
02:15:16,520 --> 02:15:18,920
Speaker 1: and of course it looks like a chip. We should

2180
02:15:18,920 --> 02:15:20,560
Speaker 1: we should get into this story. Can't leave this on

2181
02:15:20,600 --> 02:15:28,040
Speaker 1: the table because it involves Herman Geary. Take us into

2182
02:15:28,120 --> 02:15:31,480
Speaker 1: the take us into this one. Well, yeah, that's right.

2183
02:15:31,960 --> 02:15:33,800
Speaker 1: But first of all, I was telling Will to do

2184
02:15:33,920 --> 02:15:39,040
Speaker 1: the following. Um, these ranchers are using the thought patterns

2185
02:15:39,120 --> 02:15:41,760
Speaker 1: and so on, not from the past, but also from

2186
02:15:41,920 --> 02:15:46,440
Speaker 1: our own and from our own observations. And the result

2187
02:15:46,760 --> 02:15:50,560
Speaker 1: is the ranch that I've seen, it's beautiful natural vegetation,

2188
02:15:52,320 --> 02:15:56,120
Speaker 1: magnificent deer growing on it. In one week, I saw

2189
02:15:56,440 --> 02:15:59,760
Speaker 1: three bucks that would break the world, and that the record,

2190
02:16:00,360 --> 02:16:02,440
Speaker 1: it would enter the record book of boone Crocket Club.

2191
02:16:02,760 --> 02:16:04,720
Speaker 1: And if you and your lifetime see one, you've been

2192
02:16:04,760 --> 02:16:07,240
Speaker 1: kissed by the gods. I saw three in one week.

2193
02:16:08,600 --> 02:16:12,360
Speaker 1: And right now you have all over the United States

2194
02:16:12,560 --> 02:16:16,120
Speaker 1: the score buone crackety club, scores of white tail endless dropping.

2195
02:16:16,880 --> 02:16:21,200
Speaker 1: Except on those Texas ranches. They're going up and up,

2196
02:16:21,760 --> 02:16:24,760
Speaker 1: and they will go up. I know, because we are

2197
02:16:24,800 --> 02:16:29,800
Speaker 1: now discussing things that we're introducing other measures, and you

2198
02:16:29,920 --> 02:16:34,320
Speaker 1: have wonderfully healthy populations. Yeah, and this is all because

2199
02:16:34,360 --> 02:16:37,760
Speaker 1: of a buck to their ratio. Not quite. Not quite,

2200
02:16:38,120 --> 02:16:39,840
Speaker 1: it is, it's it's a little bit more than that.

2201
02:16:40,000 --> 02:16:41,960
Speaker 1: It is really the first The first thing is that

2202
02:16:42,160 --> 02:16:44,760
Speaker 1: you condition the landscape in such a fashion that you

2203
02:16:44,800 --> 02:16:47,680
Speaker 1: have rich, rich food all the time. You must make

2204
02:16:47,720 --> 02:16:51,920
Speaker 1: sure you had big, big fonds growing. Yeah, good mother,

2205
02:16:52,000 --> 02:16:55,040
Speaker 1: screw those. You have to reduce the density and you

2206
02:16:55,160 --> 02:16:57,240
Speaker 1: have to look after the landscape to make it rich

2207
02:16:57,320 --> 02:17:01,120
Speaker 1: and productive. That's number one. Number two is you eliminate

2208
02:17:01,879 --> 02:17:04,560
Speaker 1: some of the things that are poor performers that you

2209
02:17:04,640 --> 02:17:07,119
Speaker 1: take out. And the next thing is that you don't

2210
02:17:07,240 --> 02:17:12,520
Speaker 1: kill your big breeding bucks. What the Germans did was

2211
02:17:12,879 --> 02:17:16,760
Speaker 1: and that it became law when they realized that you could.

2212
02:17:18,080 --> 02:17:22,320
Speaker 1: They they had a system of class one and class two.

2213
02:17:23,040 --> 02:17:25,320
Speaker 1: The class one and class two were split into A

2214
02:17:25,440 --> 02:17:29,320
Speaker 1: and B. Class one A were the trophy stags that

2215
02:17:29,440 --> 02:17:33,440
Speaker 1: were breeders. You never touched them. They were off limits.

2216
02:17:33,720 --> 02:17:39,360
Speaker 1: You could only kill one B or under certain circumstances,

2217
02:17:39,600 --> 02:17:44,280
Speaker 1: harvest tag was allowed. That's one A. Then you could

2218
02:17:44,480 --> 02:17:48,280
Speaker 1: never kill two A. That's what a tag for the future,

2219
02:17:49,200 --> 02:17:52,240
Speaker 1: you could kill it to be. When I was last

2220
02:17:52,320 --> 02:17:55,680
Speaker 1: hunting in Wyoming for ELK, I had the chance to

2221
02:17:55,760 --> 02:18:02,200
Speaker 1: shoot a young bull with enormously long, thin antlers. I

2222
02:18:02,280 --> 02:18:06,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't hang such a thing on my wall. I would

2223
02:18:06,120 --> 02:18:11,240
Speaker 1: turn around in shame. That bull had a future. He

2224
02:18:11,480 --> 02:18:13,280
Speaker 1: had to live, and of course it didn't shoot it

2225
02:18:13,280 --> 02:18:18,920
Speaker 1: and his progeny as well, but his children others. Yes,

2226
02:18:19,160 --> 02:18:22,200
Speaker 1: this was a bowl that had not yet bread. But

2227
02:18:22,360 --> 02:18:25,960
Speaker 1: he was a big, big, magnificent ball. Yeah, but he

2228
02:18:26,120 --> 02:18:28,200
Speaker 1: was a satellite bull. He was not even with the

2229
02:18:28,240 --> 02:18:30,880
Speaker 1: writing group. Yeah, he was just entering it. That's not

2230
02:18:31,000 --> 02:18:34,640
Speaker 1: an animal you kill, that's an animal you allowed to live.

2231
02:18:36,240 --> 02:18:40,280
Speaker 1: I killed a ball ten minutes later. Who I was

2232
02:18:40,480 --> 02:18:44,880
Speaker 1: so happy to have. It was an old ball. It

2233
02:18:45,040 --> 02:18:48,360
Speaker 1: was a grass antlet ball. See this means something to me.

2234
02:18:48,800 --> 02:18:51,880
Speaker 1: This means almost nothing to most people. To me, this

2235
02:18:52,160 --> 02:18:56,160
Speaker 1: was the joy of joys. The grass antlet bulls live

2236
02:18:56,640 --> 02:19:00,680
Speaker 1: during the anti growing period on sedges and grasses which

2237
02:19:00,720 --> 02:19:03,640
Speaker 1: are very which are which have no toxins in it. Yea,

2238
02:19:04,560 --> 02:19:06,640
Speaker 1: And that means that he was living on some of

2239
02:19:06,720 --> 02:19:10,520
Speaker 1: the better grasslands created by the forest fires that you had.

2240
02:19:11,600 --> 02:19:15,400
Speaker 1: He was hog hog fat, but he didn't have a

2241
02:19:15,480 --> 02:19:21,280
Speaker 1: main shortest of protein. The antlers were relatively short, and

2242
02:19:21,400 --> 02:19:24,480
Speaker 1: because there were no toxins in that food, they were

2243
02:19:25,000 --> 02:19:29,840
Speaker 1: perfectly symmetrical, and that's the sign of a grass antle bull.

2244
02:19:30,240 --> 02:19:32,400
Speaker 1: I have it on hanging on my ball. Now that's

2245
02:19:32,440 --> 02:19:35,520
Speaker 1: what I wanted. I got it. We had to wait

2246
02:19:36,120 --> 02:19:39,160
Speaker 1: for fifteen minutes for the sun to rise before I

2247
02:19:39,240 --> 02:19:42,080
Speaker 1: could take the photographs. What's that quick? See? I called

2248
02:19:42,320 --> 02:19:46,560
Speaker 1: the bull end. But that's another big story. Because the

2249
02:19:47,360 --> 02:19:50,800
Speaker 1: German counts in the nineties and the great hunters um

2250
02:19:51,040 --> 02:19:54,760
Speaker 1: found themselves in the dilemma. They couldn't hunt the magnificent

2251
02:19:54,840 --> 02:19:59,360
Speaker 1: stags of the Carpathian Mountains or the Danube Delta because

2252
02:19:59,400 --> 02:20:02,320
Speaker 1: in the thick it's the animal wooden visible, and you

2253
02:20:02,400 --> 02:20:04,440
Speaker 1: could hunt and puts your foot as much as you

2254
02:20:04,480 --> 02:20:07,240
Speaker 1: want to do, you'd never see them. You never killed them.

2255
02:20:07,760 --> 02:20:14,360
Speaker 1: But these were noblemen, educated people, which were wonderful authors. Yea.

2256
02:20:15,040 --> 02:20:21,320
Speaker 1: They began to understand that if I play bull successfully,

2257
02:20:22,280 --> 02:20:24,560
Speaker 1: I can walk in on that thing or it will

2258
02:20:24,760 --> 02:20:27,280
Speaker 1: run you over, as a matter of fact, and that's

2259
02:20:27,360 --> 02:20:32,000
Speaker 1: exactly what happens. Now. These writings are marvelous. I internalized

2260
02:20:32,040 --> 02:20:34,360
Speaker 1: them early on when I had a chance to try

2261
02:20:34,400 --> 02:20:39,080
Speaker 1: it out on elk. It worked like a charm. It

2262
02:20:39,440 --> 02:20:42,480
Speaker 1: is you have to watch out that you realize that

2263
02:20:42,560 --> 02:20:45,440
Speaker 1: you kill the bull in the thicket. You go into

2264
02:20:45,520 --> 02:20:48,360
Speaker 1: the thicket, and the greatest fun of all is if

2265
02:20:48,440 --> 02:20:52,960
Speaker 1: you convince the females that you are a beautiful stranger

2266
02:20:53,080 --> 02:20:55,760
Speaker 1: and they break away from the harem and they run

2267
02:20:55,879 --> 02:20:58,720
Speaker 1: towards you, and they had him, good hitting bullet is

2268
02:20:58,800 --> 02:21:02,720
Speaker 1: behind them. Yes, it's fun. I never thought we'd get

2269
02:21:02,720 --> 02:21:04,480
Speaker 1: elk tips out of this podcast, but I don't know

2270
02:21:08,320 --> 02:21:12,360
Speaker 1: very much enjoying that well. I mean, I got so

2271
02:21:12,560 --> 02:21:15,240
Speaker 1: we could do this for gosh. I knew it was

2272
02:21:15,280 --> 02:21:17,360
Speaker 1: going to be like this. I knew I was gonna

2273
02:21:17,400 --> 02:21:21,960
Speaker 1: say nothing and be speechless a lot and one another

2274
02:21:22,040 --> 02:21:26,280
Speaker 1: five hours with you, Uh. I think we must return

2275
02:21:26,400 --> 02:21:30,200
Speaker 1: to to the North American model for a second, because

2276
02:21:30,560 --> 02:21:32,760
Speaker 1: it's hard for me to explain it's importance, and it's

2277
02:21:32,800 --> 02:21:38,200
Speaker 1: not something that is ingrained enough in in our hunting

2278
02:21:38,280 --> 02:21:41,640
Speaker 1: public right now. It is not when you buy a license,

2279
02:21:41,680 --> 02:21:44,800
Speaker 1: it is not listed as part of your is part

2280
02:21:44,840 --> 02:21:48,800
Speaker 1: of the game laws. It's not. It's not right there.

2281
02:21:48,840 --> 02:21:50,800
Speaker 1: I mean, people that listen to this podcast will will

2282
02:21:50,840 --> 02:21:52,760
Speaker 1: know a lot about it. Certainly, there's a lot of

2283
02:21:53,120 --> 02:21:56,080
Speaker 1: resources and you you're working on some now with Shane

2284
02:21:57,360 --> 02:22:00,080
Speaker 1: Uh to learn more about it. But why do you

2285
02:22:00,200 --> 02:22:04,480
Speaker 1: feel because it's it's such an astounding, long lasting model,

2286
02:22:04,560 --> 02:22:07,720
Speaker 1: even before you contified it, why do you believe that

2287
02:22:07,840 --> 02:22:09,840
Speaker 1: it's not You know, you don't get your game regulations

2288
02:22:09,879 --> 02:22:11,600
Speaker 1: book in Montana, Wyoming. Why is it not on the

2289
02:22:11,680 --> 02:22:16,840
Speaker 1: front back cover. Actually, that's a very good question, and

2290
02:22:16,879 --> 02:22:21,640
Speaker 1: I can't answer that. I do know that it is

2291
02:22:21,760 --> 02:22:28,680
Speaker 1: being um written up occasionally. It is being rewritten incorrectly

2292
02:22:28,800 --> 02:22:34,880
Speaker 1: by the way to fulfill secret wishes in part. But

2293
02:22:35,440 --> 02:22:38,080
Speaker 1: it is something that I feel school children should know

2294
02:22:38,120 --> 02:22:43,520
Speaker 1: about because it returned life and biodiversity and beauty to

2295
02:22:43,640 --> 02:22:48,320
Speaker 1: your land, and that is what wildlife management should be

2296
02:22:48,360 --> 02:22:52,400
Speaker 1: all about. It's a hands on way of generating more

2297
02:22:52,640 --> 02:22:56,560
Speaker 1: diversity rather than less diversity. If you let the wolves

2298
02:22:57,480 --> 02:23:00,520
Speaker 1: go through the landscape, you will suffer from this loss

2299
02:23:00,800 --> 02:23:03,920
Speaker 1: in biodiversity. If you're on the hunter hand, play god,

2300
02:23:04,000 --> 02:23:07,720
Speaker 1: and you have to. That is your responsibility today in

2301
02:23:07,879 --> 02:23:11,080
Speaker 1: landscape because there are no natural landscapes in North America.

2302
02:23:11,360 --> 02:23:15,000
Speaker 1: There haven't been for twelve thousand years. Your landscapes are

2303
02:23:15,120 --> 02:23:17,680
Speaker 1: artifacts of human activity. The way you put that is

2304
02:23:17,720 --> 02:23:20,280
Speaker 1: striking that these that you're looking at an artifact that

2305
02:23:20,400 --> 02:23:23,000
Speaker 1: has been manipulated, will continue to be manipulated. Right, And

2306
02:23:23,120 --> 02:23:27,280
Speaker 1: it was manipulated very, very cleverly up to the time

2307
02:23:27,959 --> 02:23:32,920
Speaker 1: of the discovery of North America by the Europeans. See,

2308
02:23:33,160 --> 02:23:36,320
Speaker 1: because when they entered, they never realized that they were

2309
02:23:36,480 --> 02:23:41,000
Speaker 1: entering a highly, highly civilized landscape, by which I mean

2310
02:23:41,360 --> 02:23:47,120
Speaker 1: that the landscapes had been manipulated in favor of human

2311
02:23:47,240 --> 02:23:51,520
Speaker 1: wants and needs and conditions. Yeah, they were artifacts that

2312
02:23:51,680 --> 02:23:55,320
Speaker 1: serve humanity, and those people that entered had not a

2313
02:23:55,400 --> 02:23:59,280
Speaker 1: clue about it, and now we do. One a lesson

2314
02:23:59,360 --> 02:24:01,840
Speaker 1: to learn from that modeling from you is that you

2315
02:24:02,000 --> 02:24:05,480
Speaker 1: must understand your place and time, like you must understand

2316
02:24:05,480 --> 02:24:08,520
Speaker 1: when you look at the landscape how it got to

2317
02:24:08,560 --> 02:24:09,800
Speaker 1: be that one. That's right, there's no way you can

2318
02:24:09,879 --> 02:24:12,120
Speaker 1: understand being in it, being a part of it if

2319
02:24:12,120 --> 02:24:14,080
Speaker 1: you don't understand how it got to be. But let's go.

2320
02:24:14,760 --> 02:24:20,720
Speaker 1: If you follow our unfortunately now misguided environmentalism, yeah, you're

2321
02:24:20,760 --> 02:24:24,520
Speaker 1: going to create forest fire conditions like you wouldn't believe. Yeah,

2322
02:24:25,080 --> 02:24:29,039
Speaker 1: a landscape of natural biodiversity which has the large mammals

2323
02:24:29,080 --> 02:24:31,760
Speaker 1: in it, yet is an open landscape in which the

2324
02:24:31,959 --> 02:24:36,880
Speaker 1: annual production of plant material is largely consumed when the

2325
02:24:36,959 --> 02:24:40,480
Speaker 1: forest fires occurred. They're small, they're cool. You don't have

2326
02:24:40,600 --> 02:24:43,640
Speaker 1: these enormous conflagrations that you now have. Yeah. You see,

2327
02:24:44,080 --> 02:24:46,960
Speaker 1: when human beings came to this continent about fifteen to

2328
02:24:47,080 --> 02:24:50,600
Speaker 1: seventeen thousand years ago, they came into a continent that

2329
02:24:50,840 --> 02:24:56,320
Speaker 1: was hit hard by about sixty general of large mammals,

2330
02:24:57,080 --> 02:25:01,520
Speaker 1: and they hit the continents so hard that the vegetation,

2331
02:25:01,800 --> 02:25:04,879
Speaker 1: most of the content, was so low that you evolved

2332
02:25:04,959 --> 02:25:08,320
Speaker 1: here like the prongrean antelope, a species of animal that

2333
02:25:08,520 --> 02:25:13,360
Speaker 1: is the highest speed runner in the world. You can

2334
02:25:13,480 --> 02:25:17,760
Speaker 1: only evolve high speed running in wide open landscapes. Yeah.

2335
02:25:19,080 --> 02:25:22,440
Speaker 1: The Texas deer that I talked about, the fan tails,

2336
02:25:22,879 --> 02:25:25,800
Speaker 1: Texas white tail, and the Texas white tail is a

2337
02:25:25,920 --> 02:25:31,360
Speaker 1: deal that evolved in open landscapes. And its orbits, yeah,

2338
02:25:31,720 --> 02:25:34,120
Speaker 1: are shaped in such a fashion that they would have

2339
02:25:34,200 --> 02:25:37,400
Speaker 1: been able to click up very simply because in those

2340
02:25:37,480 --> 02:25:45,880
Speaker 1: days you had enormous predatory and carrion feeding birds around. Yeah,

2341
02:25:47,480 --> 02:25:50,560
Speaker 1: the same thing with golden eagles. Golden eagles will kill

2342
02:25:50,600 --> 02:25:53,880
Speaker 1: deer and prongeronan antelope of course, Oh yeah, absolutely. And

2343
02:25:54,000 --> 02:25:56,800
Speaker 1: so this was an open country species which had eyes

2344
02:25:57,160 --> 02:25:59,560
Speaker 1: your Texas white tail has eyes as big as a

2345
02:25:59,600 --> 02:26:01,880
Speaker 1: big horn sheep. Yeah, and it was able to so

2346
02:26:02,000 --> 02:26:04,640
Speaker 1: you had a wide open landscape. When people came and

2347
02:26:04,760 --> 02:26:09,280
Speaker 1: were confronted by these mega carbivo candy boards, these huge bears,

2348
02:26:09,440 --> 02:26:12,520
Speaker 1: lions and so on, they began burning the landscape where

2349
02:26:12,520 --> 02:26:15,360
Speaker 1: they could burn it, and then they settled there because

2350
02:26:15,400 --> 02:26:18,520
Speaker 1: on burnt landscape they were safe from the predators. And

2351
02:26:18,600 --> 02:26:22,320
Speaker 1: by the way, they lived a miserable life for a thousand,

2352
02:26:22,360 --> 02:26:25,720
Speaker 1: five hundred years. After that, they developed a miracle weapon

2353
02:26:26,240 --> 02:26:31,520
Speaker 1: which was the um well, which was a sharp cutting

2354
02:26:31,560 --> 02:26:37,680
Speaker 1: blade mounted on a detachable spear. You put poison on it,

2355
02:26:38,000 --> 02:26:40,480
Speaker 1: very severe poison. They were killing mammoth on the spot

2356
02:26:41,480 --> 02:26:44,039
Speaker 1: several at the time. They were very, very very semie.

2357
02:26:44,120 --> 02:26:47,680
Speaker 1: That's the Clovis culture. Also, the Hastat culture is another

2358
02:26:47,720 --> 02:26:52,240
Speaker 1: one that they produced unbelievable cutting tools. The hasket cultures

2359
02:26:52,560 --> 02:26:58,320
Speaker 1: thin long knives that were obviously drenched in um poison

2360
02:26:58,720 --> 02:27:02,440
Speaker 1: most likely a knitum and that were used. Later on,

2361
02:27:02,560 --> 02:27:05,760
Speaker 1: you had the Foesome culture, which was also something very

2362
02:27:05,800 --> 02:27:08,160
Speaker 1: similar to the Clovis and the fish Tale culture in

2363
02:27:08,240 --> 02:27:11,039
Speaker 1: South America. And by the way, with these miracle weapons,

2364
02:27:11,360 --> 02:27:14,760
Speaker 1: they killed out the large founder within five years completely.

2365
02:27:14,959 --> 02:27:18,880
Speaker 1: But you know what happens now, The vegetation grows and

2366
02:27:19,000 --> 02:27:25,359
Speaker 1: you have conflagrations, you have huge fires. You have to counterburn,

2367
02:27:25,760 --> 02:27:29,039
Speaker 1: you have to learn how to handle vegetation so it's

2368
02:27:29,040 --> 02:27:31,800
Speaker 1: safe for you. And the North American Indians and the

2369
02:27:31,840 --> 02:27:36,800
Speaker 1: South American Indians became greatest experts, and so they burned

2370
02:27:37,000 --> 02:27:41,760
Speaker 1: in order to make the vegetation subservient to human needs.

2371
02:27:42,040 --> 02:27:46,360
Speaker 1: They became some of the greatest hortic culturists and great agriculturists.

2372
02:27:46,560 --> 02:27:49,640
Speaker 1: These are bright, bright people that were doing this. Yet,

2373
02:27:50,040 --> 02:27:53,880
Speaker 1: and by the time Columbus came to North America, you

2374
02:27:54,000 --> 02:27:59,640
Speaker 1: had a continent completely under human control. It was civilized,

2375
02:28:00,320 --> 02:28:05,240
Speaker 1: but it was also overpopulated, and wildlife was very, very

2376
02:28:05,680 --> 02:28:10,520
Speaker 1: very scarce. The reason you had so much more wildlife was,

2377
02:28:10,600 --> 02:28:14,720
Speaker 1: of course the Great Tragedy, because already in fifteen thirty

2378
02:28:14,840 --> 02:28:20,040
Speaker 1: nine with the Desorto expedition, UH, they brought diseases, and

2379
02:28:20,120 --> 02:28:24,840
Speaker 1: they began to spread diseases instantly, and Native people became

2380
02:28:24,879 --> 02:28:28,160
Speaker 1: aware of it very very quickly, and they fled just

2381
02:28:28,280 --> 02:28:31,199
Speaker 1: to get away from any contact with these Europeans. Imagine

2382
02:28:31,440 --> 02:28:34,120
Speaker 1: driving five hundred pigs in front of you. That's what

2383
02:28:34,200 --> 02:28:39,280
Speaker 1: the sorto was doing because the preceding expedition and UM

2384
02:28:40,560 --> 02:28:44,360
Speaker 1: seven by Kabezza Debaka, who was second in command, and

2385
02:28:44,480 --> 02:28:47,960
Speaker 1: he reported back one of the problems they had was

2386
02:28:48,040 --> 02:28:51,920
Speaker 1: getting enough food. In the first expedition, people were dying

2387
02:28:51,959 --> 02:28:55,080
Speaker 1: of hunger. So the second expedition thought they were going

2388
02:28:55,160 --> 02:28:58,720
Speaker 1: to fulfill that. They had five hundred pigs moving along

2389
02:28:58,800 --> 02:29:01,160
Speaker 1: with them at any one time, and they spread that

2390
02:29:01,360 --> 02:29:05,960
Speaker 1: as diseases like you wouldn't believe it. The minimum is

2391
02:29:06,040 --> 02:29:10,400
Speaker 1: that fifty six million American natives died. The more likely

2392
02:29:10,480 --> 02:29:16,879
Speaker 1: figures at hundred twenty billion died and wildlife exploded as

2393
02:29:16,879 --> 02:29:24,560
Speaker 1: a consequence. Buffalo. The real beginning is about and their

2394
02:29:24,640 --> 02:29:31,440
Speaker 1: maximum extent. They reached about seventy certainly in Pennsylvania. That

2395
02:29:31,680 --> 02:29:35,080
Speaker 1: is then they began to shrink already. But the maximums

2396
02:29:35,160 --> 02:29:38,640
Speaker 1: This is the image of the landscape full of wildlife,

2397
02:29:38,920 --> 02:29:43,080
Speaker 1: full of buffalo, full of passenger pigeons, is a consequence

2398
02:29:43,120 --> 02:29:47,920
Speaker 1: of the death of North American natives by the millions.

2399
02:29:48,920 --> 02:29:52,840
Speaker 1: So for instance, passenger pigeon, you had. The best explanation

2400
02:29:53,040 --> 02:29:57,640
Speaker 1: is that once the nut gardens, the fruit trees and

2401
02:29:57,720 --> 02:30:01,480
Speaker 1: everything else, your eastern hardwood forest is a nut garden. Yeah,

2402
02:30:01,959 --> 02:30:07,360
Speaker 1: once they became available, the pigeons got into it, and

2403
02:30:07,800 --> 02:30:11,440
Speaker 1: your genetics tells us that this was a very rapid

2404
02:30:11,560 --> 02:30:17,280
Speaker 1: expansion and they expanded into the billions. And so basically,

2405
02:30:17,480 --> 02:30:20,480
Speaker 1: what was the biomass that once walked as native people

2406
02:30:20,520 --> 02:30:25,360
Speaker 1: on Earth became passenger pigeons in the sky. Horrible. Yes,

2407
02:30:25,840 --> 02:30:29,720
Speaker 1: the passenger pigeons is one of those species that everybody understand.

2408
02:30:29,800 --> 02:30:32,800
Speaker 1: You see, the passenger pigeon was a rare bird at

2409
02:30:32,840 --> 02:30:35,520
Speaker 1: the time Columbus landed in North America. It's a rare

2410
02:30:35,680 --> 02:30:40,560
Speaker 1: bird in the food archeological sites. Yeah, very very rare bird.

2411
02:30:41,720 --> 02:30:43,480
Speaker 1: If it had been as common as that, it would

2412
02:30:43,480 --> 02:30:45,680
Speaker 1: have been everyone. No, it wasn't. But understanding these ebbs

2413
02:30:45,720 --> 02:30:50,600
Speaker 1: and flows, understanding that's the world. That's right. And it

2414
02:30:50,760 --> 02:30:53,120
Speaker 1: gets even better because one of the papers thinks that

2415
02:30:53,640 --> 02:30:57,640
Speaker 1: the release on the vegetation that happened was so massive

2416
02:30:58,600 --> 02:31:01,640
Speaker 1: that because now with the natives had suppressed, it was

2417
02:31:01,760 --> 02:31:05,280
Speaker 1: so massive that it sucked out a lot of C.

2418
02:31:05,480 --> 02:31:07,800
Speaker 1: O two out of the air and caused the little

2419
02:31:07,840 --> 02:31:11,640
Speaker 1: ice age. That's not my theory. That's one theory I

2420
02:31:11,720 --> 02:31:15,959
Speaker 1: cannot defend or explained, but this is one theory out there. Yeah,

2421
02:31:16,080 --> 02:31:18,840
Speaker 1: it could very well be true. They were trying to

2422
02:31:18,920 --> 02:31:21,160
Speaker 1: make the point that this was, in fact, the first

2423
02:31:21,879 --> 02:31:27,720
Speaker 1: example of man caused climatic change. Nothing to fool around

2424
02:31:27,800 --> 02:31:35,720
Speaker 1: with the little ice age. The understatement, i'd say, of

2425
02:31:35,800 --> 02:31:39,480
Speaker 1: the century, but longer than that's right. But you see,

2426
02:31:39,520 --> 02:31:46,879
Speaker 1: you should read because it's so funny. The alvaris Noonscaba

2427
02:31:46,920 --> 02:31:51,680
Speaker 1: Debaka was a nobleman and a Spanish officer, very successful,

2428
02:31:51,720 --> 02:31:56,040
Speaker 1: and he was a falconer, and they emperor that he

2429
02:31:56,120 --> 02:32:00,640
Speaker 1: reported to Charles the Fifth was a passion at falconer

2430
02:32:01,200 --> 02:32:04,440
Speaker 1: and a hunter, and so of course the Emperor was

2431
02:32:04,520 --> 02:32:09,280
Speaker 1: interested what he saw. Naturally, Now Cabeza Devaka begins in Florida,

2432
02:32:09,400 --> 02:32:12,560
Speaker 1: goes all the way to eight years to Mexico. He

2433
02:32:12,680 --> 02:32:16,320
Speaker 1: doesn't see a single alligator. He doesn't see a single

2434
02:32:16,400 --> 02:32:19,160
Speaker 1: coyote or wolf. He doesn't see any grizzly bear. He

2435
02:32:19,240 --> 02:32:21,840
Speaker 1: knows about black bear and puma, he doesn't see any

2436
02:32:22,480 --> 02:32:26,800
Speaker 1: They sees no elk, he sees no hevelina. When the

2437
02:32:27,120 --> 02:32:31,039
Speaker 1: natives in Florida, he describes when hunting deer, they took

2438
02:32:31,080 --> 02:32:34,480
Speaker 1: along water and wood because where there was water and wood.

2439
02:32:34,760 --> 02:32:37,960
Speaker 1: There were no dear. Can you imagine as a hunter

2440
02:32:37,959 --> 02:32:43,560
Speaker 1: of what that means, how rare dear were. Yet Cabeza

2441
02:32:43,600 --> 02:32:46,640
Speaker 1: Devaka says there are three kinds of deer in Florida,

2442
02:32:47,160 --> 02:32:50,720
Speaker 1: and his hundred percent correct. They still are there to

2443
02:32:50,840 --> 02:32:53,440
Speaker 1: be a different deer. Quite, that's how keen an observer

2444
02:32:53,560 --> 02:32:56,040
Speaker 1: he was. You say so, he now describes for the

2445
02:32:56,080 --> 02:33:00,240
Speaker 1: Bennett with the king, all the huntrble birds like the

2446
02:33:00,280 --> 02:33:03,440
Speaker 1: blue heron, the egrets and so on to forth. But

2447
02:33:03,600 --> 02:33:09,840
Speaker 1: it doesn't mention the eagle. Once. With a huge population

2448
02:33:10,200 --> 02:33:15,160
Speaker 1: of people on the land, every eagle has its feathers

2449
02:33:15,280 --> 02:33:19,240
Speaker 1: torn out. He doesn't see a single eagle, he doesn't

2450
02:33:19,240 --> 02:33:25,440
Speaker 1: see a single vulture. Well, if you have deer in

2451
02:33:25,560 --> 02:33:29,640
Speaker 1: such small populations and only dear nothing else, When you

2452
02:33:29,720 --> 02:33:33,480
Speaker 1: don't find a single turkey in Florida, it's a disorder.

2453
02:33:33,520 --> 02:33:38,160
Speaker 1: Expedition that meets the first turkey in Louisiana. Yeah, that

2454
02:33:38,560 --> 02:33:41,680
Speaker 1: was the continent you looked at. It was very very

2455
02:33:41,760 --> 02:33:46,920
Speaker 1: well used by people, and that matches the archeological data. Okay,

2456
02:33:47,440 --> 02:33:51,800
Speaker 1: these vast changes changes that right, disease that then sweeps

2457
02:33:51,840 --> 02:33:55,080
Speaker 1: over this. That's right, that's right. Change you see for

2458
02:33:55,200 --> 02:33:59,960
Speaker 1: twelve thousand years people change the continent till the europe

2459
02:34:00,040 --> 02:34:03,800
Speaker 1: Dance came, and then in rapid fire fashion, you whiplashed

2460
02:34:04,000 --> 02:34:10,000
Speaker 1: the whole continent. There is no natural ecosystem anywhere left

2461
02:34:10,200 --> 02:34:16,040
Speaker 1: in North America because of that. Sobering to wrap up

2462
02:34:16,040 --> 02:34:18,920
Speaker 1: on the on the North American model doesn't need to

2463
02:34:19,040 --> 02:34:26,920
Speaker 1: change well for the next years. You asked a good question. Um,

2464
02:34:28,879 --> 02:34:30,800
Speaker 1: I think what you've been doing in the past is

2465
02:34:30,959 --> 02:34:36,200
Speaker 1: good and it would continue as long as you accept

2466
02:34:36,320 --> 02:34:41,680
Speaker 1: socially that wildlife can be in the service of human beings,

2467
02:34:42,440 --> 02:34:46,840
Speaker 1: that it can be consumed, that it is a product

2468
02:34:47,000 --> 02:34:49,520
Speaker 1: and a harvest of the land. As long as you

2469
02:34:49,600 --> 02:34:53,000
Speaker 1: have that, and as long as you think that it's

2470
02:34:53,160 --> 02:35:00,000
Speaker 1: right and proper to treat everybody in the our democraty

2471
02:35:00,040 --> 02:35:04,560
Speaker 1: see as an equal, so that every citizen who is

2472
02:35:04,600 --> 02:35:09,960
Speaker 1: no longer not a criminal, etcetera, can get wildlife for

2473
02:35:10,160 --> 02:35:13,400
Speaker 1: their own use. It will remain and retain sustainable use.

2474
02:35:14,360 --> 02:35:17,600
Speaker 1: And as long as you have wildlife, your second Amendment

2475
02:35:19,200 --> 02:35:23,240
Speaker 1: will stay. But if you lose your wildlife, it isn't

2476
02:35:23,280 --> 02:35:28,240
Speaker 1: worth the paper threaten on well. Trying to gather the

2477
02:35:28,280 --> 02:35:33,280
Speaker 1: words to summarize our time to here I feel, um,

2478
02:35:33,879 --> 02:35:35,480
Speaker 1: I feel like I want you to come back number one,

2479
02:35:37,320 --> 02:35:39,640
Speaker 1: or I'm coming to you. Yes you can, we should,

2480
02:35:39,680 --> 02:35:42,040
Speaker 1: I should. Do you realize that the Germans have sent

2481
02:35:42,120 --> 02:35:44,840
Speaker 1: the TV crews to film me because I've taken such

2482
02:35:44,879 --> 02:35:48,400
Speaker 1: strong stands on the wolf issue in Europe stuff all

2483
02:35:48,440 --> 02:35:50,360
Speaker 1: the time, I'm gonna yeah, I'm coming to you and

2484
02:35:50,440 --> 02:35:54,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna hunt. I want to thank you for a

2485
02:35:54,800 --> 02:35:58,920
Speaker 1: life that was dedicated to to these ideas, to pursuing them,

2486
02:35:59,400 --> 02:36:02,840
Speaker 1: to articulating them, and for coming here and doing both

2487
02:36:02,879 --> 02:36:06,240
Speaker 1: of those things, because I think this is an incredibly

2488
02:36:06,280 --> 02:36:10,880
Speaker 1: important conversation. I think your ideas are generalation, not only

2489
02:36:11,000 --> 02:36:13,800
Speaker 1: important for for your generation, but for every single one

2490
02:36:14,320 --> 02:36:17,680
Speaker 1: that comes after it. So um, I don't think thank

2491
02:36:17,720 --> 02:36:19,560
Speaker 1: you quite enough. But that's all I have for right now.

2492
02:36:19,760 --> 02:36:22,840
Speaker 1: But thank you and thank you for this opportunity. I

2493
02:36:22,959 --> 02:36:30,880
Speaker 1: loved it. Thank you, thank you. I guess that's it.

2494
02:36:31,160 --> 02:36:33,920
Speaker 1: That's all another episode in the books. Thank you to

2495
02:36:34,200 --> 02:36:37,440
Speaker 1: Dr val Geist, Thanks to Karin for hooking it up.

2496
02:36:38,000 --> 02:36:39,600
Speaker 1: Thanks to all of you for listening. I don't have

2497
02:36:39,920 --> 02:36:43,480
Speaker 1: much in the way of a conclusion other than I

2498
02:36:43,680 --> 02:36:46,120
Speaker 1: feel not quite worthy to have sat in on a

2499
02:36:46,160 --> 02:36:50,760
Speaker 1: conversation with that man, I feel again humbled by his presence,

2500
02:36:51,680 --> 02:36:55,760
Speaker 1: and um, hopefully you can hear within the conversation my

2501
02:36:55,959 --> 02:37:01,360
Speaker 1: lack of talking, my lack of it's a patient because

2502
02:37:01,400 --> 02:37:03,600
Speaker 1: I was so enthralled with what you had to say

2503
02:37:04,480 --> 02:37:05,920
Speaker 1: and amazed to be sitting in a room with him.

2504
02:37:06,040 --> 02:37:09,879
Speaker 1: So hopefully that comes through. Hopefully you enjoyed, and hopefully

2505
02:37:09,920 --> 02:37:12,959
Speaker 1: you joined us next week for episode number eighty Hunting Collective.

2506
02:37:13,160 --> 02:37:15,240
Speaker 1: They'll send you out with old number seven as always.

2507
02:37:15,760 --> 02:37:19,160
Speaker 1: See you do know because I can't go a week

2508
02:37:19,280 --> 02:37:28,280
Speaker 1: without doing run, oh without run, bringing out and run,

2509
02:37:30,320 --> 02:37:49,920
Speaker 1: absolutely drinking and don't sit in at the possible would

2510
02:37:49,959 --> 02:37:53,240
Speaker 1: stop the rowhole root being the ling, hold on out,

2511
02:37:53,360 --> 02:37:55,680
Speaker 1: barrosh shoes down, my one