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Speaker 1: I think about the idea of like psychological addiction, you know,

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Speaker 1: like there's this psychological piece why we do. Most of

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Speaker 1: what we do is because what we're thinking about it,

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Speaker 1: because what we believe about it, because of our emotional

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Speaker 1: reaction to it. And that's true. I think with addictions too,

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Speaker 1: And so is it a choice? I mean, ask any

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Speaker 1: single one of them if they would choose to have it,

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Speaker 1: if they decided one day, Like, I definitely want it

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Speaker 1: to be something that I can't control and I can't

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Speaker 1: get rid of. And any addict will tell you that's

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Speaker 1: not true.

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Speaker 2: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 2: a liability, it's a real gift.

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Speaker 1: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point

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Speaker 1: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

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Speaker 1: If you can die before you die, then you can

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Speaker 1: really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought

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Speaker 1: it was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know what to

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Speaker 1: do because there was no internet. I don't know, man,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I feel like everything is hard.

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Speaker 2: Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first

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Speaker 2: and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting

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Speaker 2: you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become

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Speaker 2: more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the

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Speaker 2: world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy. Hi, guys,

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Speaker 2: and welcome to a new episode of You Need Therapy podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Kat, and we have a returning, returning, returning,

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Speaker 2: returning here now just my co host that just comes

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Speaker 2: every now and then. We have Tara Booker here. Hi. Hello.

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Speaker 2: If you don't know who that is, then you are

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Speaker 2: probably new. She's been on here a lot. And we

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Speaker 2: started a series last year. Was that last year, I believe,

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Speaker 2: where we looked at things that were previously just in

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Speaker 2: the mental health sphere that got put and pushed into

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Speaker 2: really our pop culture and how those things may have

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Speaker 2: shifted and changed in their meaning. And that was called

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Speaker 2: the Difference Between. So we did that and I imagine

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Speaker 2: we'll do that again one day because there's always I

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Speaker 2: feel like, there's always something I'm like, oh in this.

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Speaker 2: But today we are going to start a two part

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Speaker 2: series where today we are going to talk about addiction

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Speaker 2: one oh one, some just basic questions that might come

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Speaker 2: to mind that honestly, you might think, oh, I know that,

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Speaker 2: but then if you really sit down, it's like, wait, actually,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what that means or what I would say.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to just go through addiction basics from

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Speaker 2: the perspective of more a clinician standpoint, and then next

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Speaker 2: week we are going to go through addiction through the

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Speaker 2: lens of loving someone who might struggle with any kind

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Speaker 2: of addiction, which today you'll learn a little bit about

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Speaker 2: what can fall into those categories. And then the next

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Speaker 2: week there's a little special surprise that will be a

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Speaker 2: perfect I don't want to call it a bow, but

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Speaker 2: a nice way to round out the different perspectives that

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Speaker 2: we are talking about. So before I get into that,

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Speaker 2: this is going to maybe bring up feelings because personally

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Speaker 2: we were just joking. There's not a lot of black

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Speaker 2: and white, would you say in these answers? Right, yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: So some of these answers you might not like because

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Speaker 2: you want a more tangible definition, and it also might

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Speaker 2: bubble something up in you where you're like, well, no,

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Speaker 2: that can't be the answer because then I'm in that

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Speaker 2: category and that might be really uncomfortable. So if it

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Speaker 2: is uncomfortable, that might be something you might want to

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Speaker 2: look at or talk about or do some digging around.

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Speaker 2: So listen to this with some grace and some compassion.

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Speaker 2: I will start this by saying, we while I went

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Speaker 2: to grad school, I didn't know anything about addiction. Maybe

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Speaker 2: I thought I did, I don't know. And then I

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Speaker 2: got a internship at a treatment center that is where

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Speaker 2: I met Tara, and I had never actually spent well,

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Speaker 2: I think I spent a lot of time with people

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Speaker 2: who were addicts, in our addicts and struggle with any

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Speaker 2: kind of addiction. And I might not have known it,

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Speaker 2: but I walked into that treatment center as if I

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Speaker 2: was better than the people that I was working with.

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Speaker 2: And I say this knowing that I have done a

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Speaker 2: lot of care and giving myself a lot of kindness

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Speaker 2: about this, because I'm like cringing as I say it.

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Speaker 2: But I looked at the people I was going in

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Speaker 2: there too, in quotes help as almost a separate species.

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Speaker 2: And through working day after day after day after day

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Speaker 2: and bumping up against some hard things doing my own

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Speaker 2: therapy while trying to learn how to do therapy, I

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Speaker 2: learned I actually am way more similar to these people

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Speaker 2: that were brave enough to go and tackle the things

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Speaker 2: they struggled with and so I go into this and

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Speaker 2: the way my mind works around addiction might sound weird

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Speaker 2: or different than somebody who maybe was the version of

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Speaker 2: me before I started exposure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, has a lot to do with your understanding of addiction.

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Speaker 2: That's important. Exposure had a lot to do with your

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Speaker 2: understanding that is, with everything. So if you're out there

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Speaker 2: feeling like you have some really strong views or opinions,

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Speaker 2: you can have those views and opinions totally. But what

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Speaker 2: I've learned through really through being a therapist is I'm

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Speaker 2: so grateful that if this is all that that career

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Speaker 2: and that part of my life has given me, it

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Speaker 2: has showed me that I need a lot more information

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Speaker 2: than I think I do to form the beliefs in

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Speaker 2: my head with me and other people. So let's just

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Speaker 2: get into it.

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Speaker 1: We shall do it.

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Speaker 2: So what I'm going to do I say this all

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Speaker 2: the time, and I'm going to tell you guys this.

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Speaker 2: I just told it to Tara. I'm going to try

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Speaker 2: to act more as an interviewer and get Tara's perspective

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Speaker 2: on this, and then if there is something that I

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Speaker 2: fully don't agree with, I might say that if there's

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Speaker 2: something that I'm like Oh, my gosh, yes, I might

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Speaker 2: say that, but I'm we're going to try to keep

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Speaker 2: this digestible. And in case people don't know who you are,

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Speaker 2: can you tell people like almost, like what gives you

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Speaker 2: the right to know this information? Like what is the

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Speaker 2: exposure that you've had that helps you understand this? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about that as you talked about coming

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Speaker 1: into work with addicts, and I was thinking about, Oh,

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Speaker 1: it might be important for me to name that, what's

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Speaker 1: my experience with this? My very first internship in undergrad

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Speaker 1: was at an alcohol and drug treatment center in Nashville

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Speaker 1: called the Next Door. It still exists. It was a

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Speaker 1: different setup than it is now, but that was my

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Speaker 1: very first therapy social work going doing the thing.

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Speaker 2: Did you know what you were getting into to agree?

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Speaker 1: They told us about the different internship opportunities and like

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Speaker 1: what this place did and what this place did, and

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Speaker 1: you know, the people who are in the grade above

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Speaker 1: us shared specifically about what their experience was at that place.

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Speaker 1: And so I heard the girl who was a grade

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Speaker 1: about me give the spiel about this place, and I

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Speaker 1: was immediately interested. And I can't really say why one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent. It was really in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 1: I think just intuitive I knew the things I didn't

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Speaker 1: I wasn't that interested in, but I didn't know specifically

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Speaker 1: the area like I want to work in that. But

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Speaker 1: when I heard this streatment center and they lived there

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Speaker 1: for six months and they get their lives together and

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Speaker 1: they're coming out of incarceration, like that just appealed to me.

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Speaker 1: The nature of a lot of like, yeah, let's go

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Speaker 1: and like try to get better. And I like being

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Speaker 1: in the grittiness of things in life, and so I

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Speaker 1: think that was a natural pool to me too, that

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Speaker 1: it was kind of like they're in a messy spot

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Speaker 1: and they're trying to get get past it. And there

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Speaker 1: were adults and there were women, and so there were

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Speaker 1: things that I was drawn to about that population. I

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Speaker 1: did have addiction in my family, but I wasn't as

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Speaker 1: aware of all of that as I then became working

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Speaker 1: in addiction later. Like I didn't know that my dad

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Speaker 1: had an addiction when I was maybe like under the

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Speaker 1: age of eight, until I was much older and I

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Speaker 1: learned that's the reason for my parents' divorce. So there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that then like I connect to,

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Speaker 1: like the secrecy of it, because.

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Speaker 2: Did you know that before you went to work.

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Speaker 1: I did, Okay, So I knew that, like I had

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Speaker 1: found that out maybe I was a freshman in college.

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Speaker 1: We'll say, but you don't have and have memories of

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Speaker 1: the act of addiction, or you just know about it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I just know I have vague memories of like conflict.

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Speaker 1: But I was the youngest. I have older brothers. They

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Speaker 1: have explicit memories of stuff, but I was kind of

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Speaker 1: sheltered from that the truth, let's just call it what

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Speaker 1: it is. And so I found out about that in college.

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Speaker 1: So that was kind of like, oh, I woke up

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Speaker 1: to this issue in a much more personal way. I

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Speaker 1: also had witnessed like a best friend whose dad had

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Speaker 1: a pretty significant addiction during high school, and I was

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Speaker 1: really like, in that fit it was like my family too.

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Speaker 1: So I had seen that that was a very personal

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Speaker 1: exposure to addiction. So I had those pieces of like,

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Speaker 1: I think, it just didn't feel scary to me because

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Speaker 1: I just in either in my unconscious self I had

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Speaker 1: been around it and in my conscious sort of adolescent self,

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Speaker 1: I had been around it. Yeah, and just didn't feel like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how to talk about this. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what this is like. So I think that was

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Speaker 1: happening without me consciously putting all that together. So I

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Speaker 1: went and did that internship, fell in love with the

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Speaker 1: whole process of recovery and watching these people do the thing.

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Speaker 1: It was just one of the most like resilient, beautifully

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Speaker 1: transformative experiences to get to see, and wanted to work

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Speaker 1: an addiction from that point forward. Then did my masters,

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Speaker 1: did internships at like the detox unit in psyche hospitals

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Speaker 1: to focus on a alcohol and drug stuff, which is

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Speaker 1: a very intense experience, but learned a whole lot. I

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Speaker 1: also learned a lot more about the psychiatric side of things,

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Speaker 1: the co occurring piece of things working in that field,

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Speaker 1: and again still wanted to be all up in that.

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Speaker 1: And so then we started working at the ranch after

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Speaker 1: I finished grad school, and it was that co occurring

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Speaker 1: like very much addiction plus trauma plus whatever else.

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Speaker 2: So you went into that with the idea a little

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Speaker 2: bit about what you were getting into. I went into that,

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Speaker 2: and the funny thing is I did not have family

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Speaker 2: members who were addicts. It was just not something that

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Speaker 2: you spoke about or acknowledged, and so it was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm in la La Land and Da Da da, And

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Speaker 2: so I walk into that experience thinking it's going to

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Speaker 2: be like do you remember that commercial? I feel like

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Speaker 2: I used to always make fun of it was like

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Speaker 2: I used to be an addict and now I'm not.

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Speaker 2: And it's like this like beautiful like landscape of like

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Speaker 2: the beach and the ways and these people like running

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Speaker 2: and holding hands and happiness, and like that's what I

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Speaker 2: thought I was gonna go do. I was gonna go

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Speaker 2: be this like fairy that brought people into this life

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Speaker 2: they've always wanted. And I don't know how to describe

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Speaker 2: the experience of watching somebody do all of that work.

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Speaker 2: It is magical, but it's not like that. And it

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Speaker 2: was I mean, I tried not to go to work.

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Speaker 2: I like would fake sick. I did that. I left

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Speaker 2: right before group multiple times.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my got a stomach ache.

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Speaker 2: I can't come because it was so terrifying. But it

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Speaker 2: was me that it was all of my stuff that

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Speaker 2: was getting hit. It wasn't that these people were these

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Speaker 2: bad people or anything like that. So that's interesting just

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Speaker 2: you walking into it a little bit differently than I.

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Speaker 2: It almost was like I had I ran into like

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Speaker 2: a brick wall or something, and I had to go

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Speaker 2: do my things that I need to do before I

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Speaker 2: could walk back into that space. So all about to say,

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Speaker 2: how would you, to any human being describe or define

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Speaker 2: what addiction is?

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Speaker 1: The way that I like to define addiction. It's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I saw something I was looking at what the Internet says,

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Speaker 1: and something that was I think a pretty good one.

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Speaker 1: But I like the word attachment, especially because when as

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about, addiction is not just about substances like

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Speaker 1: alcohol and drugs. It can be lots of things. So

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Speaker 1: I think of it as an attachment to something, a

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Speaker 1: behavior or a substance that you can't change on your.

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Speaker 2: Own simple terms. Yeah, So when you say that, like,

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Speaker 2: we're like no, because that's me, But like, what about

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Speaker 2: drugs and alcohol? Where's that in your definition? What would

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Speaker 2: you say to somebody who's like, well, that that leaves

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Speaker 2: too much space?

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Speaker 1: Well? I think the truth about most things that we

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Speaker 1: end up talking about in this mental health world and

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Speaker 1: that end up being diagnoses and is that they're all

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Speaker 1: on a spectrum and in their simple terms, like we

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Speaker 1: all use alcohol and drugs, or most people use alcohol

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Speaker 1: and drugs to some capacity. Sometimes we overuse it. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: we unhealthily use it. That's probably true for everyone who

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Speaker 1: uses alcohol, and that doesn't necessarily mean you have an

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Speaker 1: addiction to it. But again, I think we all do

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Speaker 1: have addictions. It's the way I mean, we're technically biologically

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Speaker 1: addicted to food, right because we need it to live.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, trying to stop eating it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: sex connection, intimacy, I mean, tech the very basic term,

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Speaker 1: it's dependency on something, and our bodies can't function without

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Speaker 1: things keeping them alive. Yeah, So like to some degree,

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Speaker 1: addiction is sort of the natural part of the human makeup,

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Speaker 1: which I think is actually very destigmatizing and humbling for

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Speaker 1: all the rest of us. And to realize that we

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Speaker 1: actually do all rely on things to keep us going

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Speaker 1: and we have this just natural system like process and

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Speaker 1: way of being that that happens. Now when we talk

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Speaker 1: about addiction in the context of it being a disorder,

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Speaker 1: a problem area, a life threatening issue, then what's happening

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Speaker 1: with that is essentially to like maybe put it really

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Speaker 1: simply as the cons are outweighing the pros.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think a lot of times when I

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Speaker 2: talk about addiction, I will say, whoever I'm talking to, Well,

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Speaker 2: it's something that you used to help solve a problem

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Speaker 2: or get your needs met, and it's actually not doing

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Speaker 2: that anymore. So when you're talking about all of these things,

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Speaker 2: we all have done that before. Now a lot of

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Speaker 2: times when that is not helping anymore, or you're seeing

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Speaker 2: the cons are outweighing the pros, there's this inclination to

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Speaker 2: maybe I should do something different, and then the like

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Speaker 2: addiction I think a lot of people have in their

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Speaker 2: head right now. Is that person or part of us

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Speaker 2: that can't do that? Yeah, Yes, the cons are outwiane

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Speaker 2: the good and well I'm going to keep going yeah,

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Speaker 2: because this is why I know. Yeah, And that's I

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Speaker 2: think really scary.

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Speaker 1: All right.

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Speaker 2: So when you said all of those things, like the food, intimacy, sex, like,

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Speaker 2: so what you're telling us is that you can be

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Speaker 2: addicted to almost anything and everything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I mean it's a yeah, can can you? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I think that's probably true. Feels like a grand statement

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Speaker 1: to make, but I feel comfortable enough making it.

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Speaker 2: I feel like that I would agree with you. And

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Speaker 2: it was pretty shocking to me. Now it's not as

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Speaker 2: new in at least in the mental health world. But

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Speaker 2: just going back to where I started working, I remember

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Speaker 2: getting there and then being like, and this is our

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Speaker 2: sex and love addiction program, And I was like, huh,

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Speaker 2: what is that? And what do you mean? Somebody is

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Speaker 2: addicted to relationships? So can you explain what that might

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Speaker 2: mean to somebody who's like, how can you be addicted

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Speaker 2: to a relationship? And how would that be a bad thing?

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of things to kind of sparse out

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Speaker 1: in that. Well, there's sex addiction, which is a specific

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Speaker 1: behavior and behavior set of behaviors, and then there's love addiction,

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Speaker 1: which is a different sort of way of behaving. And

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Speaker 1: then there's also code of pendency.

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Speaker 2: Oh that is gonna so and.

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Speaker 1: They all would call they all, I would call those

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Speaker 1: all addictions of various sorts. So they're all kind of

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Speaker 1: in the realm of relationship connection. I would say that

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Speaker 1: sex is probably has the largest, maybe some of the most.

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Speaker 1: I wish I had some science to like, yeah, back

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Speaker 1: this up, but it probably has some of the most

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Speaker 1: like biological and physiological and chemical stuff going on with it,

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Speaker 1: because of what we know the body produces in terms

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Speaker 1: of sex, we do have Actually, I think that's an

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Speaker 1: important note. Every love people, codependency, shopping. There's actually a

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Speaker 1: lot of chemical stuff happening in the body with those

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Speaker 1: things too, because you know, everything is really both psychological

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Speaker 1: and physical, So that is helpful to understand. But being

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Speaker 1: addicted to a relationship, being a love addict, being codependent,

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Speaker 1: I think if I were trying to like explore this

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Speaker 1: with the client, that's maybe a helpful way for me

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Speaker 1: to think about answering the question. I would start to

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Speaker 1: ask questions about patterns, cycles, frequency. You know, how much

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Speaker 1: are you how much of your time is being taken

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Speaker 1: up by this, whether it's in your like mentally or

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Speaker 1: physically your actual time. Is it interrupting? These are just

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Speaker 1: kind of getting into like, how do you know if

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Speaker 1: it's an addiction, is it interrupting your ability to do

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Speaker 1: other things? Are you sacrificing certain you know, things that

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Speaker 1: are really actually important and maybe don't center your wellbeing

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Speaker 1: or that lesson your well being to put that in

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Speaker 1: front of you. So I think when we just think

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Speaker 1: about it that way, behaviors like love and codependency and relationships,

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Speaker 1: we can start to see how we would do that,

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Speaker 1: and then we think, well, lots of people do that,

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Speaker 1: Like I've done that yes, does that mean I, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm at the level of a love addict. That is

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Speaker 1: where the question of can you change that on your own,

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Speaker 1: I think, becomes the important qualifier. Are you able to

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Speaker 1: then see that awareness and do something and make a

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Speaker 1: change in your own best efforts to not just continuing

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Speaker 1: to be compulsively acting out in those same ways again, Okay, again.

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Speaker 2: That's so helpful for you to say, because I was there.

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Speaker 2: But it's one time tell me that I was a

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Speaker 2: love addict. I had it. Therabit's one time tell me

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Speaker 2: that I was a love addict, and I wanted to

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Speaker 2: throw I was reading the Facing Love Addiction. I was

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Speaker 2: reading that book. I wanted to throw the book at

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Speaker 2: her face because yes, I was exhibiting some of those

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Speaker 2: behaviors right, And I was like, well, now that I

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Speaker 2: am seeing this, it sounds like I need to like

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Speaker 2: not do that, or I need to add that, or

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Speaker 2: I need to explore this. I think it bothered me

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Speaker 2: because I'm like, wait a second, I don't feel very

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Speaker 2: different than Debt, Dadt, Deata, all these other people the

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Speaker 2: human experience, and so one I think was my own

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Speaker 2: issue of you, I'm not an addict and I can't

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Speaker 2: be an adict because addicts or these kinds of people.

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Speaker 2: And then the other thing was like, wait a second,

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Speaker 2: just because somebody might be like you, maybe you misuse alcohol,

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Speaker 2: you abuse it once or twice, are you now an addict?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, right, could be right, there's like so

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Speaker 1: much more, but yeah, I would have to ask myself

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Speaker 1: a lot more questions, right, And.

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Speaker 2: So I think what you're saying is so important because one,

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Speaker 2: I think that's the stigma of addiction that we all

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Speaker 2: could do some work on, and it should be more

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Speaker 2: of a helpful term than a harmful term, because once

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Speaker 2: we can like name something, then we can do something

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Speaker 2: about it. But the other thing is we all are

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Speaker 2: going to exhibit these behaviors with something because it is

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Speaker 2: our human nature to go out and try to get

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Speaker 2: our needs met, and sometimes we're doing those in ways

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Speaker 2: that are hurting us, and we need somebody to say, hey,

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Speaker 2: have you seen this, so then we can make we

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Speaker 2: can see if we can make a choice, and if

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Speaker 2: you can't make a choice, that's okay. You might just

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Speaker 2: have to say, hey, I need a little bit of help.

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Speaker 2: And if you can make a choice, then like okay, great,

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Speaker 2: Maybe we need to continue to have somebody to help

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Speaker 2: hold up a mirror to us every once in a while.

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Speaker 2: But I just like that we are putting out there

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Speaker 2: in the front of this, especially before we get to

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Speaker 2: the part of the loved one, because you're more alike

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Speaker 2: than different than that person, and there's a conversation and

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Speaker 2: there that a lot of times needs to be had,

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Speaker 2: especially when you named codependency and we're all codependent, Like

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Speaker 2: it's just how we have to be in a certain

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Speaker 2: extent like parts else, if we're just out here living

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Speaker 2: our own and we don't need anybody and nothing impacts us,

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Speaker 2: then you're gonna die.

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Speaker 1: Well, the nice clinical term is interdependent. Okay, yes, but

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Speaker 1: like we're gonna die, but you can't allow for us

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Speaker 1: to need other people. Yes, doesn't hold it all by itself. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's the only way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, any who'sy. So I don't know if I

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Speaker 2: said this in the beginning, but a lot of these

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Speaker 2: questions that we're asking, I put this up on Instagram

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Speaker 2: and you guys sent us a lot of them, and

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Speaker 2: a lot of them were very much the same. So

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Speaker 2: one of them that came up a lot is is

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Speaker 2: addiction a disease or is it a choice that people

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Speaker 2: are making and if so, why are people continuing to

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Speaker 2: make this choice that seems to be hurting them or others? So,

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Speaker 2: from your experience as a therapist in all these years,

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Speaker 2: what do you think and has your opinion changed?

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Speaker 1: I think I partic healer. With any substances that are

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Speaker 1: being ingested into the body that your body develops a

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Speaker 1: dependence upon, then you have a brain. You literally have

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Speaker 1: a brain disease. I mean that's scientifically provable. So it

407
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Speaker 1: is actually a brain disorder, like your brain is disordered

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Speaker 1: to need. It's hijacked by that substance is the primary

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Speaker 1: survival thing that it's going to go after. It's going

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Speaker 1: to put it in front of food. It's going to

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Speaker 1: put it in front literally, I mean people will starve, right,

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Speaker 1: they won't need yeah, because their brain is saying this

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Speaker 1: is the most important thing for us to have right now.

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Speaker 1: And there's a lot of science that you can look

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Speaker 1: up YouTube videos and understand how lots of different substances

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Speaker 1: do this to the brain because of how much of

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Speaker 1: the positive reward chemicals that are being hyper created that

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Speaker 1: it thinks this is the most important thing we need

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Speaker 1: right now. So like that in terms of substances is

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Speaker 1: really I think helpful to understand because they tend to

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Speaker 1: be maybe more overt than also a lot of other

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Speaker 1: addictions that can be a little bit more covertly hidden.

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Speaker 1: You know, you tend to see the decay of a

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Speaker 1: person's physical in their substances that are affecting their bodies,

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, it's a brain disorder, a brain disease.

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Speaker 1: And then there's I think in other realms of like

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Speaker 1: process or behavior addictions like food or exercise or sex,

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Speaker 1: there is a lot chemically happening also, like I said before,

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Speaker 1: and I think about the idea of like psychological addiction,

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Speaker 1: you know, like there's this this psychological piece why we

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Speaker 1: do most of what we do is because what we're

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Speaker 1: thinking about it, because what we believe about it, because

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Speaker 1: of our emotional reaction to it. And that's true I

434
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: think with addictions too. And so is it a choice?

435
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 1: I mean, ask any single one of them if they

436
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: would choose to have it, if they decided one day, Like,

437
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 1: I definitely want it to be something that I can't

438
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: control and I can't get rid of. And any addict

439
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 1: will tell you that's not true. I think, you know,

440
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: we do things, like you said, for the payoff that

441
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 1: they're giving us in the immediate when we don't know

442
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 1: how to find a relief or a soother or a

443
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,959
Speaker 1: mechanism that helps us in the moment that's safer than

444
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 1: those things. And so it's like in that moment, Oh yeah,

445
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: I like chose to go, you know, starting smoking weed

446
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 1: when I was a teenager because I didn't know what

447
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: else to do with the conflict that was happening in

448
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 1: my household every day and the feelings that I had,

449
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, I chose that. And I think it's almost

450
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: like naive. If I asked you about everything you were

451
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 1: doing throughout your day, and like, if it just boiled

452
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 1: down to is it that simple, you would tell me

453
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: no way about anything you were doing. It's a choice,

454
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 1: and it's driven by a lot of other things. It's

455
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: driven by distress, it's driven by an emotion mind versus

456
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: a rational one, is driven by a lack of needs

457
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: being met in other ways, and so driven by desperation,

458
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: like when we're in when choices like that, decisions like that,

459
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: behaviors like that are made out of those places. It's

460
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: not simple enough to say it's a choice, and then

461
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: you reach a point at which the attachment is really

462
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: hooked in. The addiction has now become an addiction and

463
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: not just a pattern or not just a sort of

464
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 1: thing that I do when I have a bad day

465
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 1: every once in a while. It's now I need that

466
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: even if I'm not having a bad day. That's when

467
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: you're out of control of your own behaviors.

468
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 2: When you were talking about the diseased brain, like the

469
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 2: brain being hijacked, I very much visualize that in my head.

470
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 2: Whenever I'm with somebody who is struggling with I'm learning

471
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 2: about something, I have this image in my head. Because

472
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,160
Speaker 2: it is so confusing, even from the perspective as a clinician,

473
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: sometimes I have to like snap out of it. It

474
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: is so confusing when you're sitting with somebody who actually

475
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 2: sometimes looks healthy and you are like, oh my god,

476
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: how and why did you do this? We just talked

477
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 2: about this, and these are conversations you might be having

478
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 2: in your own real life with yourself or others. But

479
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 2: what I have to remember is if somebody's brain was

480
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 2: at that full healthy level and we know all of

481
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 2: these other things about them, there's no way this person

482
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 2: is sitting here and being like, Yeah, I want to

483
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 2: go fuck up my life or fuck up my relationships,

484
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: or or leave my family in this distress and pain.

485
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 2: There's no way that a healthy brain could actually make

486
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 2: that choice without having some kind of disorder in it.

487
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 2: The issue is that you can't see it now. Sometimes

488
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 2: when we get into chemical addiction and even other addiction

489
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 2: where like you maybe you are have a shopping addiction

490
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: and you don't have any money, and then you look malnourished. Sure,

491
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: but that's I think the issue is so often when

492
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 2: we see somebody who is sick, has maybe cancer or

493
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 2: I don't know, a lot of physical disease, liver disease, anything,

494
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 2: groans like stuff like that, you can see it, and

495
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: so it makes sense why they're making the choices they're making.

496
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 2: I have to come back to that over and over again.

497
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my gosh, we just have We can't.

498
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 2: I can't cut their brain open right now. I mean,

499
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: we could take a brain scan, but I don't have

500
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: that technology in my office. So I think that's really

501
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 2: helpful to hear is something that's hijacked their brain, just

502
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 2: like another physical illness can hijack your organs, but your

503
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 2: brain is the one that has all of your moral value, cognition,

504
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: all of that, And so it's hard to reconcile that

505
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: when you're looking at somebody who looks like their brain

506
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: could be all good inside.

507
00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: We really fool ourselves into thinking we have we're like

508
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: deciding a lot of stuff that's actually just biologically and

509
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: organically happening in our systems. I mean that, I think

510
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: is what will come down to and in this real

511
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: like what it means that we're actually all powerless over

512
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: a lot of things in ourselves in some way or another,

513
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: which is kind of what addiction is pointing us to,

514
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: is that you're powerless over a part of yourself. Like,

515
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: you don't decide that your brain fires the neurons in

516
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: there right now to like respond. You don't decide that

517
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: your body is just doing that, that's just what it does.

518
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: You're not deciding to digest your food, You're not decide

519
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: you're not deciding how your brain works and what fashion

520
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: it's gonna situate itself in. So I can't even actually

521
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: take in those words, and I'm sayingfully, it's.

522
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 2: So so yes, it makes my brain do like cartwheels,

523
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 2: like what do.

524
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: You mean that's right? I'm in control of what I'm

525
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: saying right now, are you?

526
00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: But then like why do you think different things? And

527
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 2: I think we're having this conversation and I think that's

528
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 2: why maybe this topic is so controversial at times, is

529
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: there aren't these just like black and white answers that

530
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 2: we can give that just feel like cozy and comfy.

531
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 2: It actually brings more, I think a little more aspect

532
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: of fear, of like what do you mean I'm not

533
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: decigning this?

534
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: What do you mean?

535
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 2: I can't control my body and if it digests its food,

536
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 2: it's like I want to be able to tell it

537
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: what it can do and what it should do. But

538
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 2: I can tell myself all day that I should do this,

539
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that I'm going to actually do it.

540
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: The correct response to being out of control of something

541
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: is fear. Yeah, And that's also why people resist, like

542
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: hell to the idea that they might have an addiction.

543
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: Is because you're asking them to step into being out

544
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: of control of themselves, like to step into an awareness

545
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: or an acceptance or truth that they don't have control

546
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: over what they do.

547
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 2: That's really scary, and especially when we live in a

548
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: world who that as a whole rejects that idea. H

549
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 2: whether we want to admit it or not. A lot

550
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: of the functions in our world are to be able

551
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: to control outcomes or circumstances or things. It feels cozy.

552
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 2: So no wonder we have addiction all around us is

553
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 2: because we're resisting and natural currents that's everywhere.

554
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: Yeah we yeah, I mean, and and the recovery you

555
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: know process, especially in the twelve step program, it I

556
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: acknowledges that you need something to catch you. Like if

557
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: if this place really is chaos and uh, and we're

558
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: out of control a lot of most of what's happening,

559
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: then I'm gonna have to find something to do with

560
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: that reality and the fact because I can't live in

561
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: that fear every day, So how do what do I

562
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: rest in?

563
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: You know?

564
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: Like and and that's why it's like it takes you

565
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: something to something greater. It takes you to something greater

566
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: than believing that you're in control all the time and

567
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: having to hold on to that, Like there is something

568
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: peaceful that comes in the surrender of letting go of

569
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: those things. So I think there's a lot of clues

570
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: to the deep human.

571
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 2: Truth in this issue of addiction that people don't want

572
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 2: to touch.

573
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's scary to step into, which I think in

574
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: some of what we're talking about with the brain staff

575
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: also answers the question about the genetic piece. What we

576
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: know over the years and especially as technology gets better,

577
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: is that just like any physiological disease, similar to all

578
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: mental illness, is that people have predispositions. If there's a

579
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: lot of heart disease in your family, you have a

580
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: higher likelihood of something activating heart disease in you. You

581
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: probably have to take more steps to take care of

582
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: your heart and to eat certain foods and do certain

583
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: things to decrease the likelihood of that becoming activated in you.

584
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: And that's similar with what we understand about really, I

585
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: think all addictions, and same for depression and anxiety and

586
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: all those things, is there's certain kind of experiences in life, stressors,

587
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: traumas that can turn that on. That's like, okay, now

588
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: we need this because this is how we deal and

589
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: that those kind of mechanisms are passed down in the

590
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: body from our ancestors, from other people. So it can

591
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: be genetic for sure. You can have a predisposition just

592
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: by the nature of people and your family having had

593
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: those issues, having had those disorders before. It's not one

594
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: hundred percent like that means you're definitely going to be

595
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: an addict because your dad was an addict. There's a

596
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: lot of factors that have come into play with that.

597
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, what would you say to somebody who asked

598
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: you our addicts bad people?

599
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: The first thought that comes to mind is similar to

600
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: what we've been talking about, which is, if they are,

601
00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: then so am I Because I have an addictive brain

602
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: and body too, and I certainly like it's possible for

603
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: me to be an addict. It's possible for anyone to

604
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: be an addict to any of the isms, the things,

605
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: And so just by that like kind of baseline, it's like,

606
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: if it's actually possible for possible for anybody, I'm not

607
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: saying I'm saying it's more likely for certain people, it's

608
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: less likely for other people all the things. And if

609
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: it is possible for anyone to be one, are we

610
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: all bad? Then are we all bad? That's where that

611
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: question takes us. The words I like to offer people

612
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: instead is they're sick people. Addicts are sick people if

613
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: they're in their active addiction.

614
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: Which oh, going back, when you are in relationship or

615
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: working with maybe you are therapist listening to this. You're

616
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 2: working too with a client who's struggling in the midst

617
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: of active addiction. Again, we forget that because we see

618
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: them and they're like, oh, all of these you can walk,

619
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: you can talk, you can drive a car, and then

620
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 2: you're doing all these things. It's like, oh my gosh,

621
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: you forgot that they maybe have illness running rampant in

622
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: their brain. It almost is like, oh, like is that

623
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 2: bad to say they're sick? No? Is it bad to

624
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 2: say that somebody whose cancer is sick? No, they're literally sick.

625
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 2: So why would I be afraid to call this person sick?

626
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 2: And we have to remember that because when I say

627
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 2: something in plain English to somebody who has a brain

628
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 2: that is sick and this actually is all mental illnesses,

629
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: like think about like ADHD from that to bipolar to depression,

630
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 2: all of that. If I'm saying this, I'm playing English

631
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 2: to somebody, why would I think that they would be

632
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 2: able to understand it if I also know that their

633
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,439
Speaker 2: brain is not well.

634
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: I mean, we have our reactions to words depending on

635
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: our stories with them. Of course, But for me, for

636
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: the most part, and for what I've experienced with most people,

637
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: is sick feels just kind of like a fact word. Yeah,

638
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: it's like I'm sick today, I have a fever, you know,

639
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: Like it doesn't feel like a value statement word, like

640
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 1: a judgment based word. It's like, you're either sick or what.

641
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: We kind of have enough, I think because we use

642
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: it in the physical illness world, we kind of see

643
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: it kind of like plainly.

644
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 2: There's not any moral value.

645
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, we can get a little pity.

646
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: Oh you're sick. That's not always hell Like that's where

647
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 1: it starts to have energy to it. That's different. But

648
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: even still, I think it just feels kind of neutral, like, oh,

649
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 1: got it, you're sick, and it.

650
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 2: Can offer like instead of pity, this empathy, this understanding. Yes,

651
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 2: like oh this this is clicking. Now.

652
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,959
Speaker 1: It's a compassionate phrase, because I don't know most people

653
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 1: that aren't going to have some level of compassion for

654
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: someone who's sick.

655
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I have a migraine. Oh, I get why

656
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 2: you weren't very chatty today, or I get why you

657
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: had to cancel our plans anywhoy? All right, So moving along,

658
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 2: I want to talk more about I understand what this means.

659
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 2: I get that we can be addicted to anything. Okay, Well,

660
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 2: if I identified that I have an addiction, what I

661
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 2: know from the general world is that, oh, you're an alcoholic,

662
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,280
Speaker 2: you should get sober. So because I have an addiction,

663
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 2: I've identified that should my goal be, or should somebody's

664
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: goal be to be sober from that thing? Abstinent from

665
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 2: that thing? Which, remember, everybody who's listening, we are talking

666
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 2: about shopping, sex, food, alcohol, drugs, relationships.

667
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 1: Yes, so there's a lot of schools of thought on this. Yeah,

668
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,439
Speaker 1: from my experience, and you know, I'm not great about

669
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: just like memorizing research and like looking it up all

670
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: the time, and it changes, it changes from what I'm remembering,

671
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: even of research that lines up with my experiences with substances,

672
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: in particular sobriety. Stopping using abstinence, especially in the beginning

673
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: of someone trying to change that behavior, is essential. It's

674
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: actually changing it. And for most people, a maintenance of

675
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: abstinence from substence from substances that they're addicted to has

676
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: the highest results of success. And so I think that

677
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: it can vary for some people Some people can stop

678
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: using things for a period of time that were super problematic,

679
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: and five years later they have no issue drink recreationally.

680
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: I don't know.

681
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: They might have an issue. There might be an issue,

682
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: but it might not be enough of an issue, or

683
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: it might be a lower level, or it might not

684
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: feel like it, or there really might not be an issue.

685
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: There's a lot of variance, of course, because human beings

686
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: are complex. But I think in the majority, most people,

687
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: when I've been working an addiction, have found that trying

688
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: to manage entering substances back into their lives at some

689
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: kind of less or degree has not worked. That's not

690
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: been sustainable in the law term. It's inevitably turned back

691
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: into an out of control issue.

692
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 2: Is that worth the risk? Exactly?

693
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: That's always I think the question you have to ask

694
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: yourself if you're in that position. For other process and

695
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: behavior addictions, obviously that's going to vary. I don't know

696
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: how you could not buy things in this world like

697
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: we're hily going to get your food. I don't know

698
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: if you're a shopping addict, if you have food, if

699
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: you have an eating disorder, got eat, you gotta do so,

700
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: got to figure that out sex also is a natural part.

701
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: You could choose abstinence for the rest of your life

702
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: if you wanted to do that valve chastity for some reason.

703
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 1: And that is not the expectation in terms of if

704
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: you're working with anyone in sex addiction world, the expectation

705
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: would not be abstinence for the rest of your life

706
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: from that behavior. So love addiction, we would still be

707
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: in relationships, We would still want you to find love.

708
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,439
Speaker 1: Really almost I think all of the process addictions would

709
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: be inviting a different sign sort of recovery because abstinence

710
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: usually isn't an option for those things. So then that

711
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 1: becomes a real journey for people to figuring out. You

712
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: could probably speak a lot about how there's a lot

713
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: of variation in like eating disorder recovery that is going

714
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: to be And I will say, I think you know

715
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: the work the clients that I've had that have struggle

716
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: with eating disorders, you also maybe had a substance addiction.

717
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: They can feel frustrated by the idea that it isn't

718
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: as simple as abstinence, right Like that would feel like

719
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: almost I wish that your option, even though it's hard

720
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: to do. Once you you know once you get there.

721
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: But I've heard this great analogy. You probably heard it too,

722
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: But like having an eating disorder is like being an

723
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: alcoholic who has to go to the bar three times

724
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 1: a day, I tend not drink or something like that.

725
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 2: I will tell when people get in the midst of that,

726
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 2: they're like, this is so freaking hard, And I'm like,

727
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 2: because when I was working at that treatment center, I

728
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 2: was in the eating disorder program, So I mean there

729
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 2: was eating disorders everywhere, which talks about the nature of

730
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 2: addiction and it's pervasiveness. But I would say, yeah, I

731
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 2: will would agree, you might be in one of the

732
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 2: most difficult places to be at this treatment center because

733
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 2: you're essentially trying to figure out how to take your

734
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: drug of choice like cocaine and use it responsibly. That's

735
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 2: exactly right, which is a crazy thing to think about,

736
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 2: which in a nutshell how I would answer this question.

737
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 2: And I think what you're really saying is it's not

738
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: that simple. And you know, when I started, I was

739
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:42,720
Speaker 2: in an environment that heavily looked upon the twelve Steps,

740
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 2: which I think is a huge, wonderful, amazing tool that

741
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 2: is available, and it was very the space I was

742
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 2: in was very opposed to harm reduction, and as I

743
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 2: have learned more about people and the differences in people's resources,

744
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 2: I've become more open to that idea because we have

745
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 2: to treat every single person just like, Okay, I'm going

746
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 2: to keep bringing this up. You look at somebody with cancer,

747
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 2: not every cancer treatment is exactly the same. You have

748
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 2: to look at all the other parts of that person

749
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 2: and how those might affect that type of cancer. And

750
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 2: it's the same thing where well, if I can help

751
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 2: somebody stay alive and keep a job and maybe have

752
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 2: a relationship or two, that is really fruitful. Who am

753
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 2: I to say that that's the wrong route to go.

754
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 2: If this other route, they're never going to be able

755
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 2: to grab onto. So you have to tread so lightly

756
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 2: because I don't say that to give people of like, oh,

757
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: you can drink every now and then, if you just

758
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 2: do on the weekends, that's not what I mean. I

759
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 2: think the biggest thing you have to ask yourself in

760
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 2: some of those spaces is this worth it? Is this

761
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 2: risk worth it? And with some of these process adictions,

762
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 2: you don't sometimes have that option, So it's a no.

763
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 2: You don't have to be sober sometimes that is the

764
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 2: best route and the safest route. But there's more to it.

765
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 2: And so when we're looking at people who are maybe

766
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 2: have had an issue in the past, I think it's

767
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:09,879
Speaker 2: very easy to pass judgment if you're like, oh my god,

768
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 2: I sound someone so drinking or this or that or

769
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 2: the other. It's like, there's more to it. Yeah, that

770
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 2: could mean that they're they've re left and they're going

771
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 2: down this path. It also could mean that today was

772
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 2: a really good day for them.

773
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, I mean. The thing that I

774
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: also have found to be true is that if folks

775
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: who struggle with any kind of addictive issue or behavior

776
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 1: is if they are in a place where they're like

777
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: safe enough, they'll be able to know for themselves, like

778
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 1: there may be a lot of mental blocks to getting

779
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: honest about whether I can actually or I can't, or

780
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 1: I'm using this and it still doesn't actually feel like

781
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: I'm being my truest self. Like that, if they can

782
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 1: get into a place where they can actually pull the

783
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 1: mirror up and try to see what feels like truth

784
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 1: to me, they all know. I think people know. I

785
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: think we all really know somewhere deep down, what's like,

786
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: oh that I think this actually is a problem for me.

787
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 1: I think this is something I probably need to stop.

788
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 1: I think, what do you think it takes to get there?

789
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: And what are you're from a clinician's perspective? What are

790
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 1: your thoughts and beliefs around telling somebody what they should

791
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: and should not do when it comes to this. So

792
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 1: the first question puts me in my second seat that

793
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: is supposed to be for next episode. What it takes

794
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: for someone to get there?

795
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: We can say that we can leave people on a cliffhanger.

796
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean because it Honestly, I've seen the things

797
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: that are like, Okay, these are generally the things that

798
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: get people there, those things I could kind of speak to.

799
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: But I've also seen lots of people have that list

800
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: of things and still not get there. Yeah, And that

801
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: I think is the sort of mystery of the world,

802
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: like why do some people starve to death? And why

803
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: do I have everything I need every day?

804
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 2: Well?

805
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: And I feel like sort of that area of spiritual

806
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 1: chaos questions.

807
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 2: And doesn't that fit right into the other argument we're

808
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 2: making is why does that person cancer? Why can they

809
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 2: beat it but this other person couldn't?

810
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: Why did I not develop a substance addiction and my brothers.

811
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 2: Did exactly and are you a bad person?

812
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: I think the how people get there if I were

813
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: to just to offer something to it in this episode,

814
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: and we can, I think, come to the other side

815
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: of the struggle of being you know, a loved one

816
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: who's seen it not get people there like I think

817
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: it's well compassion. I think people who can be mirrors.

818
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: That's what I think is the most powerful thing about

819
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,439
Speaker 1: twelve step spaces for all the addictions. There's a lot

820
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: of those a's out there, and it's to see someone

821
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 1: who I happen to see myself in and they're talking

822
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,879
Speaker 1: about it, they're owning it, they're better, they're whatever, they're

823
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: offering me help, they're not judging me. I think that's

824
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: a very powerful tool that gets people to be able

825
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: to see things that are really hard to see in

826
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 1: our own biased minds. And that's usually the biggest thing,

827
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: is like, can I have something to look to to

828
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: help me see myself through that isn't just someone pointing

829
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: at my behavior? And yeah, safe space to be honest.

830
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you have somebody yelling at you, telling you

831
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 2: what to do and arguing with you, this is from

832
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: a clinician standpoint, I'm not talking about the loved one

833
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 2: because that's such a different experience. When you have this clinician,

834
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 2: I guess expecting results from you or expecting you to

835
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 2: understand something or do something correct change your behavior based

836
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,399
Speaker 2: on these things that I told it doesn't feel very

837
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 2: safe and doesn't feel very compassionate from my experience. And

838
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 2: so when I ask about, like, what do you think

839
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 2: about people like telling you what to do? I think

840
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 2: I probably used to. Well, I went into this space thinking, well,

841
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell them how to be, even though

842
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 2: we're told like that's not your job. I want to

843
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 2: tell them what they need to do and they just

844
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 2: have to follow the directions. And that does not offer

845
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 2: any relationship one between you guys that can be fruitful,

846
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 2: but also it's it's missing everything that addiction is. If

847
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 2: they could do that, they would would do it.

848
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: That's the choice thing too. I'm like, if it were

849
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: a choice, then I'm pretty sure someone who's literally selling

850
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 1: their body for heroin and doesn't have a home would

851
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: choose to do that.

852
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels so. I mean, anybody who's inquot's choosing that.

853
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 2: Again goes back to like it doesn't make sense, so

854
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 2: clearly there might be some disordered things happening in their brain.

855
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, the important thing is get heroin. So anything I

856
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: have to do to do that, I will do to

857
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: do that, which includes crazy shit, right.

858
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

859
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 1: One thing that I do does come to mind when

860
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: I actually think about how I work with clients around

861
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: gaining awareness about where do they fall on the spectrum,

862
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: because I literally do this work with people, so it's

863
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: I do have like methods and one of the most

864
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: effective is literally just having people go through every negative

865
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: impact this has had, this behavior has had on their

866
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: entire life in as much detail as we possibly can do.

867
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: And if you make that full and honest list and

868
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: you sit with yourself on the other side of that,

869
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: and there are certain things on there that you would

870
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 1: never choose to have impacted in such a way. For

871
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: a drink, a substance, the behavior that you're engaging in

872
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: that you would say, there's no and you're right, most

873
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: clearest true it self, I would never even think of

874
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: doing that. If it were to have impacted this part

875
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 1: of my life in this way, then that usually is

876
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,760
Speaker 1: the place it's like, oh well, then if you wouldn't

877
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: have chosen to do something like that with an effect

878
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: like that, what does that tell you about your relationship

879
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 1: with this behavior? And that usually sets you in the

880
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: place of, well, I must not be having a lot

881
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 1: of choice. I am in some way powerless, and so

882
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: that I mean, and that's that's not my genius. That's

883
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: step point of the twelve steps. There's a really you know,

884
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,479
Speaker 1: they know what they're doing, and so to help people

885
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: get there, it's to really look at how is this

886
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 1: actually affecting my life? And as many ways as I

887
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 1: can see it's had an impact, that's probably going to

888
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: tell me something about my relationship with it. Yeah.

889
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 2: And also there was some with this, like relief in

890
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 2: you saying that, because when you do that with somebody,

891
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 2: there is so much The feeling that I was coming

892
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 2: up in my head at first was oh the shame.

893
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,320
Speaker 2: But what that does is it takes you from a

894
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 2: place of I want to avoid this because the truth

895
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 2: I would feel so much shame. I don't know if

896
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 2: I can handle that. To once I acknowledge that and

897
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 2: I can see, oh my gosh, I'm powerless over this,

898
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 2: it helps you move from a place of shame to

899
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 2: compassionate understanding and owning the truth. And this isn't a

900
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: moral failure of you. This is something that's outside of

901
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 2: your control and you keep trying to control it and

902
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:33,720
Speaker 2: it's not working.

903
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure.

904
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 2: Okay, So perfect place to stop and leave you, guys

905
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 2: wanting the other side of this conversation because we're trickling

906
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 2: into it now as we're talking. If you have any

907
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:51,919
Speaker 2: questions or feedback or anything around this topic, feel free

908
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 2: to send it to me Catherine at You Need Therapy

909
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 2: podcast dot com. We can use those questions maybe for

910
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 2: couch talk. We might be able to implement them in

911
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 2: a future episode, but feel free to send those and

912
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 2: stay tuned because we are taking you from this more

913
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 2: clinical standpoint, more basic understanding of what addiction is to Okay, well,

914
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 2: what happens if you are somebody who loves somebody who

915
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 2: is struggling with this. You guys sent in a lot

916
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 2: of questions that were basically all the same, and so

917
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 2: that tells us there's one thing that is really hard

918
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 2: for a majority of people out there, and we're going

919
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 2: to tackle that. So if that was you, or if

920
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 2: this is made you start thinking about those things, you

921
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 2: might want to subscribe to this podcast, so when it

922
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 2: comes out next week, you'll get that and you'll get

923
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,360
Speaker 2: to hear that part of it. You can follow the

924
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 2: podcast at You Need Therapy podcast and me at Kat

925
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:47,839
Speaker 2: dot Defada, And I'll be back with Tara next week. Bye.