1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey are you welcome to Stuff to 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind? My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: Joe McCormick, and welcome back. This is going to be 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: part two of a two part episode on the urban 6 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: evolution of wildlife. Now, if you haven't heard part one yet, 7 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: we recommend you go back listen to that one first. 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: It should have been the episode right before this one, 9 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: and that would have been the one where we discussed 10 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:38,279 Speaker 1: how animals are adapting to the ecosystems engineered directly by humans. 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: That's right. We talked about everything from coyotes and raccoons 12 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: to the to the urban myth of the alligators that 13 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: thrive in New York City's sewer system. Yeah, we discussed 14 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: how animals react to the trash we produce, how that 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: affects them for good and ill, and how it potentially 16 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: drives evolution, how they adapt to the surfaces of urban landscapes, 17 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: how cities create these fragmented islands of biodiversity within them, 18 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: and of course the question of the mutant alligators. That's 19 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: the one on everybody's mind. But so many of the 20 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,279 Speaker 1: most interesting examples of urban evolution in the animal kingdom 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: actually occur among our old friends, the avians, the modern dinosaurs. 22 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: That's right. A number of the the cool stories of 23 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: urban wildlife do relate to to birds. And you know 24 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: it makes sense, right. They are the ones that are 25 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: able to fly from park to park. They are the 26 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: ones that don't have to worry about they don't have 27 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: to worry as much about crossing the street in many 28 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: of the situations. Yeah, they do seem quite able to 29 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: penetrate our urban ecosystems and often establish new niches. They're 30 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: ones that might be parallel to the niches that they 31 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: have out in nature, say the parallel between a bird 32 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: that naturally dwells among the rocks of a cliff face 33 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: becoming a bird that dwells among the rocks of a 34 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: cliff face that is actually the side of a building. 35 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: Right now, in this episode, because we wanted to talk 36 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: about birds, we thought it would be great to talk 37 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: to a local Atlanta bird expert. So we are going 38 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: to be talking to a bird educator named Jason Ward today, 39 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: a guy who we got to the pleasure to meet 40 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: in the studio the other day who is a little 41 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: bit obsessed with the birds of the city. That's right. 42 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: This is a fabulous chat we got to have because 43 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: it was a lot more local than most of our conversations. 44 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: For starters, he was in the studio with us and UH. 45 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: And then also we're talking about Atlanta. We're talking about 46 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: this strange city we live in that is UH, that 47 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: is situated within a forest, and all the birds that 48 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: make their home here as well. Right, So before we 49 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: get into our conversation with Jason, just a little bit 50 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: in the way of introduction. Jason Ward is an educator 51 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: for Zoo Atlanta. He's a writer for the National Laudubon 52 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: Society and a science communicator who specializes in birds. Now 53 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: he actually leads bird walks here in the metro Atlanta area. 54 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: He's guest lectured at Emory University, and he partic It's 55 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: in a lot of projects and studies pertaining to birds 56 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, including something called Projects Safe Flight, which studies 57 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: bird collisions with buildings. Also westernile virus studies, breeding bird surveys, 58 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 1: migratory bird surveys, and all kinds of stuff. So I 59 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: guess we will get right into our interview with Jason Ward. 60 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: So Jason Ward. We really appreciate you joining us today. 61 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: So I think first we'd just like you to tell 62 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: our listeners a little bit about who you are and 63 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: what you do. Well. Hello everyone, my name is Jason Ward. UM. 64 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: I'm an educator. I work for Zoo Atlanta and also 65 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: the Atlanta Audubon Society. Those are the bird nerds of Atlanta. UM. 66 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: I am also a writer for the National Autumn Society 67 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: as well. I lead field trips here in Atlanta at 68 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: Piedmont Park. UM. My field trips are the first Saturday 69 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: every single month at eight o'clock. If you live in 70 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: the metro Atlanta area, feel free to come by. It 71 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: is a great time. So Jason, how did you first 72 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: get interested in birds? That's a great question. So my 73 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: infatuation or obsession with birds started at a very very 74 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: young age. UM. I grew up in the Bronx, New York, 75 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: which isn't really the first town or environment people think 76 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: of as it pertains to wildlife in general. UM, but 77 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: I grew up there as a kid had an infatuation 78 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: with dinosaurs, as I'm sure a lot of kids go 79 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: through that phase. Since I couldn't walk outside and actually 80 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: see these dinosaurs, that I was in love with so much. 81 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: My infatuation then turned to a variety of different wildlife, 82 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: with birds eventually being the front runners, which is kind 83 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: of ironic. It kind of comes full circle because birds 84 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: are modern day dinosaurs. So that is how my love 85 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: of birds began. Didn't really grow up with a lot 86 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: of money in the bronx um, so my form of 87 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: entertainment was going to the library and I guess just 88 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: packing a desk full of as many bird books as possible. 89 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: And that love then, uh cultured, and it grew and 90 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: here I am today and I am I guess a 91 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: huge bird nerd now due to that infatuation as a 92 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: child of feathered dinosaurs. Do you have a favorite feathered 93 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: dinosaur here in the Atlanta area? I certainly do. Um 94 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: So I started his hashtag on Twitter to show my 95 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: love for my favorite feathered dinosaur. The hashtag is sky Lamborghini. Um. 96 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: The reason that I have that hashtag is because this 97 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: particular species of bird is extremely fast. It is in 98 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: fact the fastest animal in the world. This animal is 99 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: the peregrine falcon um. This animal can be found all 100 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: over the world, all on its continents excluding um antarcticle 101 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: of course. But um, the reason I call this bird 102 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: the sky Lamborghini is because it has been clocked at 103 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: speeds at approximately two forty miles per hour in a dive. Um, 104 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: this is a bird that you can see regardless of 105 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: if you live on a coastal city, if you live 106 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: in a big, bustling city like we do here in Atlanta. 107 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: They can be found besting on skyscrapers. So they use 108 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: those skyscrapers to their advantage. And it's exhilarating to just 109 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: sit there and watch them what we call a stoop 110 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: and they'll dive down incredibly fast to catch their prey. 111 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: It's exciting what is their prey? Usually, So if you're 112 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: stooping at an incredibly high speed, it wouldn't be beneficial 113 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: for you to chase prey on the ground, right you 114 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: Probably you probably won't last long employing that kind of strategy. 115 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: So they are what we call avivors, So they hunt 116 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 1: feathered prey as well. So they hunt airborne birds in 117 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: the sky, and they have a really ingenious method to 118 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: how they attack their prey. Um since their praise airborne 119 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: at the time. They'll start from approximately a mile overhead 120 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: and then they'll start their dive and then they'll allow 121 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: their momentum to do the work. They'll take their talents 122 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: and kind of knuckle them um and make like a 123 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: little a bird fist, if you will, and they'll stun 124 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: their prey in mid air with a fly by punch. Wow, 125 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: I've never heard that. And and then of course as 126 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: the prey is tumbling in the air, they'll circle back around. 127 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: They're very acrobatic birds. They'll circle back around and catch 128 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: the prey mid air and then um take care of it. 129 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: From that point. Now, we've been talking about how a 130 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: lot of scientists do all just around the world have 131 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: been observing the ways birds have changed the way they 132 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: make a living in cities as opposed to their natural, 133 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: real wild habitats. When you just take the example of 134 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: the peregrine falcon, do you see any difference about how 135 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: the falcon hunts or behaves in a city versus in 136 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: a rural area. That is a great question. The answer 137 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: state is yes. So in their natural habitat there nesting 138 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: in uh mountainous areas and also cliff sides as well. 139 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: They use those high vantage points to survey their landscape 140 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: well cities kind of offer them that same perspective. They're 141 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: able to stand or sit on uh skyscrapers and survey 142 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 1: their landscape there. Now there's a different, I guess perspective 143 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: that that living in the city gives these particular species 144 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: of bird. During migration, a lot of these birds are 145 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: passing through these cities, and as we know, with light pollution, 146 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,479 Speaker 1: it's a little difficult for these birds to manage migrating 147 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: through these cities. What these birds will then do is 148 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: they'll change their behavior and during nighttime, instead of resting 149 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: and sleeping through the night, they'll actually be a little 150 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: bit more active at nighttime, using the light pollution to 151 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: their advantage and hunting prey at nighttime as the birds 152 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: fly by these buildings. Wow. So that's one case where 153 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: light pollution is going to be working out in specifically 154 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: in favor of predators and against prey exactly exactly. So, 155 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: if you are towards the bottom of the food chain, 156 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: light pollution is not your friend um for a number 157 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: of reasons. There are predators who will use that extra 158 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: light to their advantage. And also if you're trying to 159 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: pass through a city to get to your breeding grounds, 160 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: that light pollution is not going to be a friend. 161 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: A lot of birds become disoriented and unfortunately fly into 162 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 1: those windows. And as part of projects Safe Flight here 163 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, we unfortunately find a lot of those birds 164 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 1: in uh certain areas of the city. Now, I was 165 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: chatting with you before we started the interview. You you 166 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: work with Zootlanta and UH and I frequently visit to 167 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: Atlanta with my my son his five, who is really 168 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: into dinosaurs as well. So one of our favorite birds 169 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: at Zoo Atlanta is Cecil, the cast wary. Uh and 170 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: you get to work with Cecil. What what is it 171 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: like to help care for a castlewary? It is incredibly 172 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: fun to care for a castlewary. It's also incredibly dangerous 173 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: at the same time. I guess that's what That's what 174 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: adds to the fun part of it. You have to 175 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: be extremely careful with a bird who is approximately four 176 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: ft tall and has a talent on each foot that 177 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 1: is about five inches long. You have to exercise extreme 178 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: caution in a situation like that. Despite his menacing appearance, 179 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: he is a frugivore, so his diet consists of apples, bananas, 180 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: um so he's not looking to eat me. Um, if 181 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: he were to harm someone, which he wouldn't, but if 182 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: he would, it would be purely out of defense. UM. 183 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: So knowing that, and he's a relatively old bird as well, 184 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: so he is a lot calmer in his in his years, 185 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: so it's extremely rewarding to work with a bird like him. Now, 186 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: you mentioned that Cecil's um uh fecal matter is is 187 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: particularly noxious. However, yes, absolutely so. Um. Big birds produce 188 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: big poop. I guess that's the best way to say that. Um. 189 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: And you have to be very very cautious as you're 190 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: walking around the enclosure, not to step in any just 191 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: to let everyone know I was extra cautious today. I 192 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,839 Speaker 1: haven't tracked any in here with me, so you're fine. 193 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: We would understand if you did, and if I did, 194 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: you would also know by now because despite the fact 195 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: that he eats fruits, um, his his poop is incredibly uh. 196 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 1: I guess the scientific term would be stinky. Does it? 197 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: Does it smell different than mammal poop? Yes? I don't 198 00:11:55,520 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 1: know how to describe the difference, though it does smell different. Um, 199 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: this is going to sound so odd. It's a little 200 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: bit more fragrant than than mammal poop is um and 201 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: and I would, despite the fact that I do sound 202 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: like I'm complaining about it, I would much rather be 203 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: cleaning up after bird than a mammal. You know, this 204 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 1: touches on something that we we discussed in a recent 205 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: episode that we recorded on the topic of of farts 206 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: in general and flat Plus, I was really not aware 207 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 1: prior of this research that birds do not fart. Yes, 208 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: I just hadn't thought about this before the difference in 209 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: the microbio. There's actually a really good book. I'm not 210 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: sure if you spoke about this in in that episode, 211 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: but there's a book out there called does It Fart? Yes? 212 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: Guess what inspired us exactly, written by some of my 213 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: friends on Twitter, and they cover that exact topic. So 214 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: it is actually in wherever you can find books now, 215 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: So I would encourage people to rush out and get 216 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: It's surprising what you would learn about which animals fart 217 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: and which ones do not. Oh yeah, that's that's a 218 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: great little book, especially how you can just you can 219 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: just pick it up and just see where you land 220 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: and just learn about particular creatures farting ability or lack 221 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: of farting ability, and and topics such as flatulence. UM. 222 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: It's important to talk about things like that because there's 223 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: a lot of people who view wildlife and they have 224 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: these irrational fears about the animals that live around them. 225 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: So being able to bridge that gap in a playful 226 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: manner can kind of spark curiosity and people, especially younger ones, 227 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: and get them to want to pursue a career and 228 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 1: and and conservation. So they're doing a great thing by 229 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 1: putting out a book like that. UM. Hopefully we can 230 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: do a part two about birds. We'll see how that 231 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: goes in the future. Jason, on that subject, do you 232 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 1: feel like you have good insights into strategies about how 233 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: to get people to see the wildlife in their city, 234 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: especially birds as sort of neighbors, as opposed to pests 235 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: or you know, things that people don't like. Yes, Um, 236 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: people tend to fear what they don't understand. UM. At 237 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: least that's my experience with it. UM. If individuals would 238 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: just go out there with an open mind, of course, 239 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: and explore, Atlanta is a really good city to start 240 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: something like that. UM. It is said that we are 241 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: this city in the forest, um, and that holds true. 242 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: There's a lot of old growth forest here in the city. 243 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: So just merely stepping out to your neighborhood park, especially 244 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: during a time like this, which is springtime, UH, stepping 245 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: out early in the morning and just listening to the 246 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: sounds around you, you'll hear a chorus of so many 247 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: different species. The more you know about them, the more 248 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: you'll realize we need these animals around. They're not here 249 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: to destroy our gardens or to peck at the sides 250 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: of our homes, um making us highly annoyed when we're 251 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: trying to get sleep in the morning. They are They're 252 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: here for a reason, and each and every organism here 253 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: has a relationship with the next one. It's extremely important 254 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: that we learn more about these species. So I would 255 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: suggest individuals if they have a particular species of animals 256 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: that they're interested in. For example, with me, it was birds. 257 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: Of course, what I decided to do approximately five years 258 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: ago was just go on the Internet and search for 259 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: organizations in the Atlanta area that we're involved with birds. 260 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: That is how it was introduced to the Atlanta Audubon Society. UM. 261 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: I also went to their calendar and found out that 262 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: they had field trips that they would lead, and I 263 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: said to myself, Okay, this is a perfect opportunity for 264 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: me to find out more about the species in the 265 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: city that I live in. I purchased my first pair 266 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: of binoculars and the rest of his history from that 267 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: point on. Now, speaking of birds that live in the city, 268 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm I'm continually amazed when I encounter a wild turkey 269 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: in the Atlanta area. Can you can you speak to 270 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: the I mean, are they thriving in Atlanta? Are they they? Are? 271 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: They are? Um? There has been wild turkey sightings right 272 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: in the middle of downtown. UM. It seems as if 273 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: they're waiting for the crosswalk that the light on, the 274 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: traffic lights across the street at times. UM. They're surprisingly 275 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: big birds you see them in person. They are really 276 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: good at going unnoticed until they're just in the middle 277 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: of a street corner. UM. Oddly enough, I have not 278 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: seen a wild turkey in Fulton County. UM. And I've been, 279 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: you know, studying birds in Atlanta area for about five 280 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: years now. I've seen them in Cobb, but I haven't 281 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 1: seen them in Fulton County, which is the main county 282 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: here in Atlanta. But they're here. They're definitely here and 283 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: up over the course of a year with migration coming 284 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: and going. There's approximately three d and fifty different species 285 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: of birds that can be found in the metro Atlanta area. Now, 286 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: we have done in the past an episode, actually a 287 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: couple episodes where this came out, but one full dedicated 288 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: episode on the striking ways that birds in many ways 289 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 1: are a lot smarter than people realize. We did one 290 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: on a vi and intelligence, and I wonder, what are 291 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: some of the cleverest things you've seen birds doing in 292 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: the city, or that you're aware of birds doing in 293 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: the city, Like do you see corvids hacking Atlanta and 294 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: the way they hack so many other situations. I certainly 295 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: do first and foremost, before we dive into that, I 296 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: want to encourage everyone to go back a couple of 297 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 1: episodes and listen to when Joe and I think it 298 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: was at the eight minute mark, he said that birds 299 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: were well according to him, he said that prior to 300 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: doing the research that he did for that episode, he 301 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:14,360 Speaker 1: thought that birds weren't really smart. Well, we have corvids 302 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: here in Atlanta, we have American crows, and we have 303 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: fish crows as well. They will do things such as 304 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: they'll grab a nut that is incredibly hard for them 305 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: to crack. They'll go to a busy street and they'll 306 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: stand or sit on top of a street light, drop 307 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: the nut down to the ground, and as the cars 308 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: roll by, they'll roll over the nuts, crack the nut, 309 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: and then when that light turns red, they know to 310 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: fly down and collect their treat. Um. We have other 311 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: species like the brown headed nuthatch that uses tools as well. 312 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: You all talked about tool youse in that episode as well, 313 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: So this particular species can use bark to pry open 314 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: uh pieces of a tree to look for a little 315 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: tasty insects inside of that tree as well. So, yeah, 316 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of different tactics used by birds here 317 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: in the city. One of my favorite strategies that birds 318 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: use is brood parasitism, and that is done by the 319 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: brown headed cowbird, a species that a lot of people 320 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: dislike because of that behavior. Um. So, what this bird 321 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: does is it's natural behavior was to follow around bison herds, 322 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: and they lived a very nomadic lifestyle. They would follow 323 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: around bison herds and and feed off of the insects 324 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: that bit these buffalo. Now, when European settlers came in, 325 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,719 Speaker 1: they cleared a lot of forest, which opened up a 326 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: lot more habitat for them, so they started to expand. 327 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: Now this bird is um laying. What it does is 328 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: during the breeding season, sisted lives a very nomadic lifestyle. 329 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: It lays its egg in another bird's nest um. It 330 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: doesn't raise his own chicks, So then that unsuspecting parent 331 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: has has to raise this chick that is about five 332 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: times as large as it is now. To a lot 333 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: of people, that's very, very cruel, And it gets even 334 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 1: crueler because that parent keeps a watchful eye on that 335 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: relationship between its egg, its chick, and it's now host parent. 336 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: If that host parent decides to kick that egg out 337 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: of its nest, what that cowbird will then do is 338 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: returned back to that nest and destroy it, or they'll 339 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: return back to that nest, kick all of the other 340 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: eggs out, and relay an egg. It's pretty much like 341 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: a mafia mentality. And that is why I love these 342 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: birds so much. That's also why a lot of people 343 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: dislike them so much. They'll be okay, though, that's fascinating. 344 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: It's like if I can't have it, no one can 345 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: pretty much. Or it's like you're going to raise this 346 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: chick one way or another. One of the studies that 347 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: we looked at already that I thought was really interesting 348 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: was about birds making adaptive use of trash and litter 349 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: in the city is There was a study from I 350 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 1: think it was some zoologists from Mexico City who found 351 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: that finches and sparrows in Mexico City were lining their 352 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: nests with cigarette butts, which were functioning as natural insecticides 353 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: to keep parasites out of the nest because of the 354 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: nicotine that was in the littered cigarette butts. Have you 355 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: seen other ways that birds are making adaptive use of 356 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: trash and litter in the cities I have, UM, so 357 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: it's really really weird. Uh, it's an unknown fact with birders. 358 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: If you go to one of our landfills here in 359 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: the in the metro area, it's a really really cool 360 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: place to see certain species of bird, which is um 361 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: a place you would never think to go watch birds. UM, 362 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:02,479 Speaker 1: specifically gulls. Gulls love land fills, UM vultures. You can 363 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 1: find vultures there as well. So there's a there's a 364 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,719 Speaker 1: ton of different reasons that you can find birds using trash. 365 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: You can find them using it to attract particular food items. Um, 366 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: you can find gulls there because insects like to visit landfills, 367 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: of course, so you can find them dining on those guys. 368 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: But see, now there is a complicated relationship there because 369 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: sure you'll find certain species of finches and sparrows using 370 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: items to act as an insect repellent. But then you'll 371 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 1: also have instances in which birds will choose the wrong 372 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 1: trash item um, which is why I cringe whenever I 373 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: see someone released balloons in the city. Um. Balloons are 374 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: extremely harmful for a number of species, particularly birds. Birds 375 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: would commonly bring little pieces of either balloon or balloon 376 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: string back to their nest and that can either be 377 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: swallowed by the chick or the string from the balloon 378 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: can either get entangled and hurt that baby bird as well. 379 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: So there's kind of a love hate relationship in a 380 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: in a in a sense with birds and trash there. Well, 381 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: what about the impact of this chemical pollution in an 382 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: urban environment? Chemical pollution actually was responsible for the decline 383 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: and a lot of species that I find dear um, 384 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: the raptors um all across America. There was use of 385 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: pesticides that wound up hurting species like the bald eagle 386 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: or like the sky Lamborghini ei the peregrine falcon. We 387 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: started to see trends in uh eggs being the shells 388 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: and the eggs being very very thin, which led to 389 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: a decline in the species over a certain period of time. 390 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: So I'm glad that this species has now made a 391 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: turn for the better and they're doing a lot uh. 392 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 1: Their numbers are rising over the years. But yes, chemical 393 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: pollution can definitely harm certain species, definitely. All right, we 394 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: are about to take a quick break and when we 395 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: come back there will be more of our conversation with 396 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:19,239 Speaker 1: Jason Mordan. What about mating. Have you seen ways that 397 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: urban landscapes or any human created environments change the ways 398 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: that birds find mates, produce great problems, or produce interesting 399 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: workarounds or adaptations. Yes, um, so, as we know, living 400 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: in the city is tough, or at least it's tougher 401 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: than living in a rural area because it's louder. It's 402 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: louder in a city. You got a lot of cars 403 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: passing by, a lot of just noise in general, whether 404 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: it's construction or just random city noise. Birds that live 405 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: in urban environments have learned to single louder due to 406 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: the fact that they have to compensate for the noise 407 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: pollution around them. So it's been found recently that urban 408 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: birds sing louder than their rural counterparts. Um, because they 409 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: have to. That is their way of advertising to the 410 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: ladies in the area that hey, I am big and strong, 411 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: you need to mate with me. It's a little tougher 412 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: in the city because there's music blasting and there's jack 413 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: hammers going off. So those birds need to spend a 414 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: little bit extra time working on their singing notes. And yes, 415 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: they do a very very good job at it. So 416 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: we've talked a little bit about garbage already, but how 417 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: do birds adapt to the different food sources that are 418 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: going to be available within an urban environment? Living in 419 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 1: the city. Um. Coming from a city like New York, 420 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 1: we are known for a lot of things. We're known 421 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: for pizza, we're known for taxis, and we're known for 422 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 1: a certain rodent problem. Um. Now that's not when we're 423 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: proud of it. Birds have adapted to that lifestyle. UM. 424 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: Redtail hawks are extremely prevalent in urban landscapes because there's 425 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: tons of rodents for them. To eat um. They are 426 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,959 Speaker 1: opportunistic generalists. They have a large variety of food that 427 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: is can be found in their diet. They'll eat birds 428 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: in certain parts of the country, rodents, reptiles, amphibians, if 429 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: it walks or flies, they'll eat it um, which is 430 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: why they can be found in cities thriving. There are 431 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: tons of food for them to eat in cities. So 432 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 1: they have definitely taken advantage of the fact that we've 433 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: expanded and grown in these cities. Now, what about birds 434 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: that eat some of the human foods of cities. We've 435 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: definitely read studies about mice in New York City adapting 436 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 1: to like they're they're getting different gene prevalences to favor 437 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: higher fat diets. I wonder do we see any like 438 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: that in birds. Yeah, So there are a couple of 439 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: species that are unfortunately invasive species, particularly the how sparrow 440 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: and the European starling um. How sparrows are sometimes referred 441 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: to as burger king sparrows because you can find them 442 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: in any fast food parking lot dining on French fries, 443 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 1: which I don't know how they do because I'm not 444 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: the hugest fan of their French fries, but they seem 445 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: to love it. Um, yeah, they've taken advantage. Birds are 446 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,479 Speaker 1: opportunistic in general, so if there's some kind of food around, 447 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: they'll make the best of it. And um we see 448 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 1: that with European starlings and how sparrows. Now, this isn't 449 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: quite a full blown urban environment, but Joe, I think 450 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: I chatted with you a little bit about this already, 451 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: but uh, my family recently visited, uh the island of 452 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: Kauai in Hawaii, and I was I was really blown 453 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: away by how successful chickens are there. They're like chickens 454 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 1: just just everywhere you look in in the parking, lots 455 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: of fast food restaurants, along the roadside, like in the forest. Uh. 456 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: It was kind of a testament to just how how 457 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: successful a creature like that can be when it it 458 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: finds an unexploited niche That is extremely true. There's one 459 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: reason why those particular birds are so successful there. That 460 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: is a very isolated place there. They definitely have predators there. 461 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: But when you live on the mainland and in a 462 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: in a high populated area like we do here, there 463 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: are curveballs thrown at you. If there were a large 464 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: population of chickens here in the in this urban environment, 465 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: they would have to contend with a very, very menacing animal. UM. 466 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: This animal is said to be responsible for the demise 467 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: of between one to four billion birds in the United 468 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: States alone every year, and that is our fluffy, wonderful housecats. UM. 469 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: Chickens are ground dwelling birds. UM. They don't spend a 470 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: lot of time in trees, and that is horrible as 471 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: a horrible strategy when contending with one of the best 472 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: domestic hunters around. House Cats are extraordinarily good at stalking 473 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: and catching prey, and chickens are relatively easy for them 474 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: to wrangle and take down. I'm not sure how well 475 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: that particular island is doing with their housecat population, but 476 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: I do not think chickens would do that well here 477 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: because of that issue. So we were talking about ways 478 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: to sort of be neighborly towards the birds in our environment. 479 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: Would would you contend that one of one of the 480 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: ways to do that would be to do what you 481 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: can to help efforts to curb They're all populations. There's 482 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: no doubt about that. UM. Ferro cat populations are responsible 483 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: for the demise of not only birds, but small reptiles, um, 484 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: some of our harmless species of snakes, even the animals 485 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: that a lot of people find cute in general, like 486 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: chipmunks as well. Um. I have a pretty bad stray 487 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: cat issue in my neighborhood that I live in, and 488 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: occasionally you'll find them with a chipmunk in their mouth, 489 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: despite the fact that the neighbors are feeding them. So 490 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: a lot of people think that, you know what, if 491 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: I feed these cats, they won't kill as much or 492 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: they won't feel the need to kill as much. Well 493 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: that's not the case, because these cats are doing it 494 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: out of fun um and they're not really consuming the 495 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: prey that they eat most of the time, they're killing 496 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: it and leaving it there. So I would say that 497 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: I mean a number of ways to help to be 498 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: neighborly to the birds that live in your area is 499 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: please bring your cat inside. On top of that, plant 500 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: native plants as well, And if you want to put 501 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: out a bird feeder or a bird bath, please feel 502 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: obligated to do so. Just realize that when you do 503 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: put out a feeder, you're not only feeding the sparrows 504 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: and finches, but you also are feeding those hawks as well, 505 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: so you've mentioned that you've been interested in birds in 506 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: multiple cities, and I wonder if you see city specific 507 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: or location specific adaptations among even the same species of birds. 508 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: Do New York birds do anything different than Atlanta birds 509 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: do or is it pretty much the same across urban environments. Um, 510 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: It's largely the same, but you do see different uh 511 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: minor changes with certain species. For example, the red tailed hawk, 512 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: which is the most widespread hawk in North America. They 513 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: have adapted to the fact that not only is New 514 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: York City known for their large rodent population, but they 515 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: have tons of pigeons in New York as well. Red 516 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: tailed hawks UM are more likely to take down avian 517 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: prey than they are here in Atlanta. Um. The hawks 518 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: that I've seen here in Atlanta usually hunt squirrels. That 519 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: is their main food source here uh small mammals. So 520 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: you do see that. You do see different trends in 521 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: different parts of the country based on what food is 522 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: available for them. So here's a weird question where I'll 523 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: ask you to speculate if you're comfortable. I want you 524 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: to imagine human cities like Atlanta were to continue existing 525 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: pretty much as they are for a million years, and 526 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: that the birds that live in those cities that live 527 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: there now continue to evolve to better fit their habitats. 528 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: What would you expect those birds to be like in 529 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: you know, a long time distant from now. How how 530 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: would birds change if they just keep adapting to be 531 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: better and better or city dwellers. Have you ever seen 532 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: UM Planet of the Apes? No, but you'd find UM 533 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: a lot of what you're seeing now. You'd find birds 534 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: more finely tuned to live in their environments. I've always 535 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: wondered how far into the future we can go and 536 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: continue to see the startling numbers that we see with 537 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: window collisions with birds. UM, you think that after a while, 538 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: certain birds would avoid UH cities on their migratory roots 539 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: and uh those birds would obviously be able to pass 540 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: their genes onto the next generation and their offspring would 541 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: be also a little bit more likely to avoid large cities. Now, 542 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: that isn't a great outlook for people who love viewing 543 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: these animals because we enjoy the fact that they stop 544 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,239 Speaker 1: over at our ease for a couple of weeks at 545 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: a time. So I think if we looked into the future, 546 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:13,919 Speaker 1: you'd find birds with what one could describe as superpowers. UM. 547 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: These birds already have superpowers as it is. Basically so, 548 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,399 Speaker 1: owls have this amazing sense of hearing. They can hear 549 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: uh a mouse's heartbeat. That is how in tune their 550 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: hearing is. So if you think about an animal like that, 551 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: over the course of thousands and thousands of years having 552 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: to deal with noise pollution at a city level, you'd 553 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: imagine that particular species um developed an even more acute 554 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: sense of hearing based on the fact that he has 555 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: to contend with his environment around him. So one could 556 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: only imagine what kind of adaptations city birds would start 557 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: to develop. You'd also imagine that these birds would eventually 558 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: be split off from the air world counterparts and become subspecies. 559 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: That is something that I can imagine happening as well. Now, 560 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: coming back to the bird population of Zoo Atlanta, what 561 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 1: are some other bird specimens you're particularly fond off there? 562 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: My absolute favorite bird there is Sequoia. He is our 563 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 1: bald eagle UM. He is a non releasable bird UM 564 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 1: here he's had an accent that caused a permanent wing injury. 565 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: But he's full of charisma UM, and he has grown 566 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: comfortable with people walking right up to his enclosure. He 567 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: used to start a very easily and retreat to the 568 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: back of the enclosure, but now he'll sit really, really 569 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: proudly on one of his perches, and occasionally you'll hear 570 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: him emit this very wimpy kind of sound, which a 571 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: lot of people are startled by and surprised by because 572 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 1: they think that when a bald eagle opens his mouth, 573 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: this incredible uh screeches going to come out, But in reality, 574 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 1: it's this kind of squeaky sound that they made. Can 575 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: you do an impression? I cannot, You know, I would 576 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: only be doing a disservice to all bald eagles everywhere 577 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: if I tried to do that. But I do remember 578 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: when when to Atlanta first obtained him, he was behind 579 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: some some blinders, essentially just to keep I guess people 580 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: from spooking him. Yeah, he used he used to be 581 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: a very um he used to be very easy to 582 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: spook him. And since he came to us with that 583 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: wing injury, the last thing we would want is for 584 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: him to injury it even further. So um But luckily 585 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,439 Speaker 1: for us, he has gotten a lot more calm over 586 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: the years and he's doing a lot better. Um. So 587 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: his name is Sekoya. That is definitely one of my 588 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: favorite animals. Also, we have the we have a pair 589 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,320 Speaker 1: of milky eagle owls. Um. They are the third largest 590 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 1: species of owl in the world, the absolute largest in Africa. 591 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: They have a really cool nickname. I want you to 592 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: try to figure out how they got this nickname. Okay, 593 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: so in Africa they are called monkey eating owls. Well, 594 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: well one would assume it's from it's from eating the monkeys. 595 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 1: You are a genius, yes, um, yes, So they are 596 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: strong enough to pluck small monkeys right off the tops 597 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: of trees. They have incredible grip strength with their talents. Um. 598 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: If for one day that owl decided to fly down 599 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: and grasp my forearm, the force that he would be 600 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: able to emit would be equal to a rottweiler's bite. Um. 601 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: And this is all coming from a bird who is 602 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: on average about five pounds, so not a very heavy bird, 603 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: but one that is extremely strong. Yeah. You notice, like 604 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: anybody who's ever come across an angry flock of geese 605 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: is like surprised by how strong birds can be. Yeah, gee, 606 00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: geese especially Um. There are tons of videos around the 607 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: world where geese just stand up to everything. I always 608 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: give them a wide berth whenever I passed them. Um, 609 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 1: they are formidable animals. Um what I've seen clips of 610 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,760 Speaker 1: geese going after bears. So yeah, just avoid geese everyone 611 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: when you see them, especially if they have babies around 612 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 1: there they become dinosaurs. Now, speaking of large birds, did 613 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: you work with the ostriches any at Zoo Atlanta or 614 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: is that kind of a separate department. That's actually a 615 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: separate department. So ostriches since they share the same enclosure 616 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 1: with our giraffes and our zebra. They are part of 617 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 1: the hoofstock part of the zoo, so they are unfortunately 618 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: not under our care in the bird department. Of course, 619 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: when we think, when we think about these large birds 620 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: like the ostrich I don't know about you, but I 621 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: can't help but think back to my my childhood prehistoric 622 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: animal books and some of the large birds of the past. 623 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:07,240 Speaker 1: Did you or do you have a particular favorite prehistoric bird? Yes? Um, 624 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: leave you all spoke about this bird once as well, 625 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: the terror bird. That is a bird that I would 626 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: love to see these days from a safe distance. Of course. Um, 627 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: just a bird of that size with features the kind 628 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,720 Speaker 1: of features that it had. I would love to see 629 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: that um brought to life. Now, that is not an 630 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: endorsement for someone to try to do an experiment, try 631 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: to bring it back to life. But every every time 632 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: I see a trailer for a new Jurassic Park movie, 633 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, there are all these uh, prehistoric mammals and 634 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: prehistoric birds you could be including in your terrifying tourist attraction. 635 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 1: Why not bring those guys back? Why I bring back 636 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,840 Speaker 1: the Moa. The Moa was when I was always impressed by. 637 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,760 Speaker 1: In addition to that, not only could you be bringing 638 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 1: back some of these ancient birds, you can put feathers 639 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: on some of these dinosaurs that we know had feathers. 640 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: We know that therapods such as velociraptor and such as 641 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: my favorite dina Nikus, which is actually the ones that 642 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 1: are portrayed as velociraptors. But that's a different tangent call 643 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: in itself. Um, we know that these birds, I mean, 644 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: these dinosaurs now had feathers, so it would be wonderful 645 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,800 Speaker 1: to see them portrayed as such in these Jurassic Park movies. 646 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean especially since uh, I mean, for 647 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,760 Speaker 1: so many kids, like Jurassic Park is an early way 648 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: of building up your excitement about dinosaurs, and they I 649 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,359 Speaker 1: feel like they kind of have a responsibility to get 650 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: some of the the educational aspects of the product right. Well, 651 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,320 Speaker 1: you'd think by association it would also make kids respect 652 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 1: birds more, right if the dinosaurs had feathers. Yeah, I 653 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 1: think they found a loophole in the last movie that 654 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: they put out. They are in the plot it's said 655 00:40:55,560 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 1: that these dinosaurs on exhibit are genetically modified. I'd to 656 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: I guess, resemble what people I think how people think 657 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 1: they would look. So I guess they get around the 658 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: loophole of trying to be as accurate as possible, because, 659 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: for example, that large creature that jumps out of the 660 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: water at the end of the movie, the mosasaurus, it 661 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 1: was not that large. So I think they can take 662 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: certain liberties with that loophole there. But still I'd like 663 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 1: to see feathers. That sounds kind of cheap. Jason, I 664 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: think this is always a good thing to ask people. 665 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite book on birds, something that 666 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,320 Speaker 1: you wish everybody would read. So I do have a 667 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 1: favorite book on birds. Um, it's not for everyone. I'll 668 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: start by saying that because it's not your typical book. Um. 669 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 1: My favorite book on birds is actually Sibley's. It is 670 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: what we used to identify birds. Um. It is identification book. Um. 671 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: It is packed full of different features that each species has. Now, 672 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: it's not a book that you're going to dive into 673 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,759 Speaker 1: and read at a nice stand by yourself. Actually, I 674 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,280 Speaker 1: take that back because a friend of mine on Twitter, 675 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: known as the Birdiest, he had a child recently and 676 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: he posted a photo of him reading that book to 677 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,839 Speaker 1: his child as like a bedtime story. So I think 678 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: that we should all aspire to do things like that. 679 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 1: Even though it's not the most entertaining read, No, I 680 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: think it can be. I remember when I was a kid, 681 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,879 Speaker 1: one of my favorite books to read was just I 682 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: think it was. It might have been Audubon Society or 683 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: somebody's Guide to Reptiles, and it was just an identification 684 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: book that had great color photos in it and descriptions 685 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: of like the habitat and behavior and characteristics of all that. 686 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,360 Speaker 1: It wasn't very literary, it didn't really have a plot, 687 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 1: but for some reason you couldn't get it out of 688 00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,799 Speaker 1: my hands. Well, I think kids in general are drawn 689 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: too just encyclopedic volumes of anything. You know, it's if 690 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: it's alphabetized and have some some colors and some stats 691 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 1: in there, they're gonna they're gonna go for it. Those 692 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: are some of the very very first books that were 693 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: piled on top of my desk at the library, those 694 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,760 Speaker 1: books with tons of photos in them and fun facts. 695 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 1: That is how you decide to lose yourself and dive 696 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: deep into this world, um of wildlife that lives around you, 697 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 1: and to bring it back completely. Bird. Do you keep 698 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: any birds as pets? I do not. In my opinion, 699 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 1: I don't have space big enough to house them. Um. 700 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,840 Speaker 1: I don't think I would in the first place. UM. 701 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 1: I am more than content observing them in their natural habitat. UM. 702 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:50,919 Speaker 1: It's tougher because sometimes you spend hours waiting for one 703 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: little song that you hear over hundred feet away. Um. 704 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: But that is more than enough to bring a smile 705 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,560 Speaker 1: through my face to know that this tiny little bird 706 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: that spent its winter in South America is now passing 707 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: through Atlanta on the way to Canada. Um. It is 708 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: magical almost. That is really cool. It makes you feel 709 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 1: so connected with the world before we let you go. 710 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 1: Is there anything else you wanted to talk to us 711 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: about today, anything really really burning that's on your mind. 712 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: I think that people should get out and enjoy the 713 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 1: world around them. That is most important to me. Whether 714 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:35,720 Speaker 1: it's you're taking a vacation to a national wildlife refuge 715 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,439 Speaker 1: somewhere in the United States, or whether it's just taken 716 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: a couple of minutes and stepping out to your backyard 717 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:47,360 Speaker 1: without any electronic devices to bother you. Um, just step 718 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 1: out and enjoy the world around you. And yes, I'm 719 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 1: going to be biased here. Look up, look into the trees. 720 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,720 Speaker 1: You never know what you may find in those trees. 721 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,759 Speaker 1: There are tiny dinosaurs that are flying around you at 722 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,359 Speaker 1: all times. So let's take a step back and look up. Well, Jason, 723 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 1: I just want to say thanks so much again for 724 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 1: joining us today. This has been really great. It's a pleasure. 725 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:16,520 Speaker 1: Thank you for having all Right, we're gonna take a 726 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: quick break, and when we come back, Robert and I 727 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,800 Speaker 1: will discuss some follow up from our conversation with Jason. 728 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. Okay, we're back now. We wanted 729 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: to follow up on some of the things that came 730 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,400 Speaker 1: up in our conversation with Jason. So one of the 731 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,919 Speaker 1: things that he mentioned was the ways that artificial light 732 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,840 Speaker 1: in cities can affect bird populations. He was specifically focusing 733 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,759 Speaker 1: on the ways that it favored visual hunting strategies of 734 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,879 Speaker 1: a vivors like the peregrine falcon. And I wanted to 735 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,919 Speaker 1: mention some interesting parallels to UH to that, some other 736 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 1: light anomalies within urban environments and how it affects birds. 737 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:57,400 Speaker 1: So here's a pretty weird one. The National September eleven 738 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 1: Memorial and Museum in New York runs this annual event 739 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,760 Speaker 1: called the Tribute in Light. Have you ever seen this, Robert? 740 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,400 Speaker 1: It is, if you haven't seen it, as you might guess, 741 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: a memorial to all the people who died in the 742 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: September eleventh terrorist attacks. And the form the memorial takes 743 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: is that it pulls together eighty eight search lights and 744 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:22,879 Speaker 1: arranges them into two enormous beams of light shooting into 745 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,200 Speaker 1: the sky. I guess to suggest the Twin Towers, and 746 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 1: some of the literature refers to these beams as the 747 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,600 Speaker 1: Towers of Light or the Phantom Towers. But this event 748 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:37,880 Speaker 1: has a creepy and mysterious side involving birds, especially some years. 749 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,880 Speaker 1: So I want to quote a section from Brandon Come 750 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,400 Speaker 1: writing an article about what happened at the ninth the 751 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 1: Anniversary ceremony. UH. In an article for Wired in two 752 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:51,920 Speaker 1: thousand ten, quote illuminated in the beams where thousands of 753 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:57,239 Speaker 1: small white objects sparkling and spiraling, unlike anything seen on 754 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,759 Speaker 1: other nights. Some viewers wondered if they were scraps of 755 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,359 Speaker 1: paper or plastic caught in updrafts from the spotlight's heat 756 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,920 Speaker 1: from beneath. It was at times like gazing into a snowstorm. 757 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,839 Speaker 1: It was hard not to think of souls. But what 758 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:17,759 Speaker 1: were they? They were birds spiraling around in the spotlights. 759 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,360 Speaker 1: Now we all know birds, of course, that lots of 760 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 1: bird species are seasonal migrants. Have read that roughly a 761 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,360 Speaker 1: quarter of Earth's birds or seasonal migrants uh. And in 762 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 1: the northern hemisphere, what that means is that they fly 763 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,160 Speaker 1: south to warmer weather in the winter, and in September, 764 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,240 Speaker 1: a lot of birds are going to be migrating south. 765 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,240 Speaker 1: And New York City actually lies right along a major 766 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:42,000 Speaker 1: migration corridor. Now, normally, flying at night makes a lot 767 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,120 Speaker 1: of sense for birds because birds use less energy then 768 00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 1: and they're more hidden from predators. Cover of darkness is 769 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,920 Speaker 1: very nice if you're a prey species. This sort of 770 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,520 Speaker 1: goes back to what Jason was talking about with the predation, right, 771 00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,640 Speaker 1: But of course it also comes with costs, like how 772 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 1: do you know which way you're supposed to go if 773 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:03,359 Speaker 1: it's dark out. But birds, fortunately, they've got these navigational strategies. 774 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,439 Speaker 1: They have a sort of internal compass that can help 775 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,240 Speaker 1: orient them in their north south migrations. And it turns 776 00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:14,239 Speaker 1: out this compass is calibrated somehow with respect to lights 777 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:19,080 Speaker 1: of various kinds, maybe sunlight, starlight, moonlight. So large sources 778 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,120 Speaker 1: of urban light along migratory paths have the ability to 779 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:26,319 Speaker 1: interfere with nighttime flight if the circumstances line up in 780 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,879 Speaker 1: just the wrong way. And those circumstances would be things 781 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,759 Speaker 1: like the timing of the migration phase of the moon 782 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,160 Speaker 1: and the weather conditions and so forth. And at the 783 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,399 Speaker 1: time of this this two thousand ten event, when all 784 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:42,120 Speaker 1: these birds were spiraling in the spotlights, John Rowden, a 785 00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,640 Speaker 1: citizen science director at the New York chapter of the 786 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:49,160 Speaker 1: Audubon Society, estimated that about ten thousand birds got trapped 787 00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,360 Speaker 1: in this light cage. And of course, what happens to 788 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,360 Speaker 1: a lot of these birds is you know, they're on 789 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:59,600 Speaker 1: an intensely restricted energy budget, right, and just wasting tons 790 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,400 Speaker 1: of inner g spiraling up and down in a beam 791 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,479 Speaker 1: of light because you're confused and you don't know where 792 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,080 Speaker 1: to go. That can actually prove fatal. So, like birds 793 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,399 Speaker 1: were falling to the ground exhausted or dead, or even 794 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,759 Speaker 1: if they eventually made it out, they had severely wasted 795 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,480 Speaker 1: a lot of energy that was necessary for them to survive. 796 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:18,279 Speaker 1: And I think one of the important things to drive 797 00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,239 Speaker 1: home about this is, I mean, for starters, just artificial 798 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,720 Speaker 1: light in general, the likes of which you would encounter 799 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:29,439 Speaker 1: typically in New York City, is a spectacle that did 800 00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,400 Speaker 1: not exist for the vast majority m of the of 801 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,120 Speaker 1: of the evolutionary time on Earth. Yeah, and another thing 802 00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:37,920 Speaker 1: to keep in mind, people might not even think of 803 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:39,799 Speaker 1: this because you think, okay, well, people have at least 804 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,319 Speaker 1: been lighting fires for thousands of years, right, But the 805 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:48,000 Speaker 1: intensity and not just the intensity, but the frequency spectrum 806 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,440 Speaker 1: of light has changed a lot over time. So not 807 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,919 Speaker 1: only are lights brighter than they used to be, we're 808 00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,000 Speaker 1: producing different frequencies of light because of the light sources. 809 00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,239 Speaker 1: Fire produces a very different kind of light than say 810 00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:02,160 Speaker 1: a fluorescent l it or an LED does. Yeah, like 811 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,040 Speaker 1: a a an extremely like the Las Vegas strip is 812 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,080 Speaker 1: a totally different light spectacle than say a forest fire, 813 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,279 Speaker 1: even though they are both impressive in their own right, 814 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,440 Speaker 1: exactly right, And many animals that we code all of 815 00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:16,719 Speaker 1: that is light is just something we see by many 816 00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,960 Speaker 1: animals actually do respond differently to different spectra of light, 817 00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 1: and so that kind of thing can have a biological difference. 818 00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,840 Speaker 1: But with these phantom towers, were again talking about a concentration, 819 00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,440 Speaker 1: then that is a that is a magnitude above what 820 00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,360 Speaker 1: is even typical in say New York City, right, and 821 00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,879 Speaker 1: even the natural not natural, but the normal artificial light 822 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,399 Speaker 1: generated by New York City at night can be enough 823 00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,839 Speaker 1: to cause some problems. This anomaly, you know, this sort 824 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,360 Speaker 1: of like one night a year anomally is this huge problem. 825 00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,040 Speaker 1: So these ten thousand birds get trapped, you know roughly 826 00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,000 Speaker 1: that's just the estimate at this one event, and they 827 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,479 Speaker 1: spiral and spiral, and so eventually what happened this year 828 00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:59,240 Speaker 1: was that the people running the running it were convinced 829 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,879 Speaker 1: to turn the light saw for twenty minutes and then 830 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:03,719 Speaker 1: the birds were able to get away. But then when 831 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:05,799 Speaker 1: they turned the lights back on, it happened again. So 832 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,200 Speaker 1: they just kept repeating this cycle of they'd have the 833 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:12,600 Speaker 1: lights on, birds would become trapped in this spiraling light cage, 834 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:14,799 Speaker 1: and then they'd have to turn it off for a 835 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,000 Speaker 1: few for a few minutes and let the birds escape. 836 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,080 Speaker 1: But it's also crazy to think of how this light 837 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,720 Speaker 1: accident we talked about. I think in the last episode 838 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,520 Speaker 1: we mentioned the vacuum cleaner effect, the way it just 839 00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:29,400 Speaker 1: sucks in birds from from all around. And again we 840 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:31,560 Speaker 1: do see an example of I mean, who would have 841 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,480 Speaker 1: expected this? Yeah, well, I mean some people would have expected, 842 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,799 Speaker 1: but certainly this is probably not something that was on 843 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:41,279 Speaker 1: anybody's mind planning this memorial, right, I mean some bird 844 00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,759 Speaker 1: experts probably would have expected, yet not normally people they 845 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:46,640 Speaker 1: just saying, oh yeah, we're just having some lights. I mean, 846 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,200 Speaker 1: there's lights all the time. What's the big deal. So 847 00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:51,880 Speaker 1: a more comprehensive study of this was actually published in 848 00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,160 Speaker 1: Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in seventeen by 849 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:58,040 Speaker 1: Van Doren at All and the It was a team 850 00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,920 Speaker 1: of ornithologists who did a study to track the tribute 851 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,480 Speaker 1: in lights effects on birds. So this one specific annual event, 852 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,600 Speaker 1: tracking it over seven years, and they estimated that over 853 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,919 Speaker 1: that period of seven years, the event disoriented about one 854 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,640 Speaker 1: point one million migrating birds. So when the lights were on, 855 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:20,000 Speaker 1: quote bird density is near the installation exceeded magnitudes twenty 856 00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:24,759 Speaker 1: times greater than surrounding baseline densities during each year's observation. 857 00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,880 Speaker 1: So it is working like this vacuum cleaner. It's sucking 858 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,680 Speaker 1: in all these birds that are migrating from the surrounding countryside. 859 00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,919 Speaker 1: But as we mentioned, other things that are bright lights 860 00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:39,320 Speaker 1: at night can also disoriented can also disorient birds. So skyscrapers, 861 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,600 Speaker 1: tall buildings, sports stadiums, oil rigs, and there's a pretty 862 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,719 Speaker 1: easy way to make a difference here. Turn off the 863 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,800 Speaker 1: lights during migration. Uh. And so there are these things 864 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,480 Speaker 1: known as lights out campaigns that can help. And this 865 00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:54,880 Speaker 1: would be like where a building manager would agree to 866 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,680 Speaker 1: turn off the lights in the skyscraper during a period 867 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,560 Speaker 1: when birds are expected to be passing through. I like 868 00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,680 Speaker 1: the idea of putting night vision goggles on all of 869 00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,440 Speaker 1: the players in a football or soccer game. I think 870 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,520 Speaker 1: that was great. That would really add us. It would 871 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,600 Speaker 1: be like you know, a Tom Clancy rainbow six kind 872 00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,160 Speaker 1: of take on the sport. You'd have to put them 873 00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,319 Speaker 1: on the spectators too, though, wouldn't you. Oh yeah, yeah, 874 00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,640 Speaker 1: it would be um, it would be a Buffalo bill 875 00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:24,080 Speaker 1: esque sporting spectacular for everybody involved. I like the idea 876 00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,919 Speaker 1: also that the announcers would have to be whispering, as 877 00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:32,520 Speaker 1: if they were doing a covert mission. Yeah. Now, of course, 878 00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,000 Speaker 1: as you would expect, the effects of artificial lights on 879 00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,200 Speaker 1: birds and cities don't stop there, not by any means. 880 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,440 Speaker 1: So I want to mention just one more study I found. 881 00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,240 Speaker 1: It was in Proceedings of the Royal Society of London 882 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:49,400 Speaker 1: b and Biological Sciences from by Dominoni, Ketting and Partechie 883 00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,200 Speaker 1: And this was a study that looked at the effects 884 00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:55,880 Speaker 1: of nighttime artificial light on European blackbirds or tortoise marula. 885 00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,359 Speaker 1: And they said that quote, birds exposed to light at 886 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,840 Speaker 1: night develop up their reproductive system up to one month 887 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:08,160 Speaker 1: earlier and also molted earlier than birds kept under dark nights. Furthermore, 888 00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:12,399 Speaker 1: city birds responded differently than forest individuals to the light 889 00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:16,720 Speaker 1: at night treatment, suggesting that urbanization can alter the physiological 890 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,719 Speaker 1: phenotype of songbirds. Now, why did this happen? It's kind 891 00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:22,400 Speaker 1: of hard to say for sure, but they're probably going 892 00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:24,640 Speaker 1: to be a lot of pressures at play here, plus 893 00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:28,239 Speaker 1: just some of the normal ways that light can affect 894 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,719 Speaker 1: hormonal frequencies. I mean, we've even heard this about the 895 00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:35,520 Speaker 1: way light affects our own hormones are artificial light effect. 896 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,520 Speaker 1: If you're like looking at bright lights right before you 897 00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,160 Speaker 1: go to bed, this can cause problems with the hormones 898 00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:42,960 Speaker 1: that you normally need to have to get to sleep, 899 00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,080 Speaker 1: such as that bright little screen that we all have 900 00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,319 Speaker 1: such a difficulty detaching ourselves from. Yeah, even I have 901 00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,080 Speaker 1: this problem. And I just want to say also that 902 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:54,680 Speaker 1: in the last episode, we were talking a lot about 903 00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,840 Speaker 1: this book by Minnow Skill Tous and the Dutch researcher 904 00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:00,200 Speaker 1: who wrote this book, Darwin Comes to Town, that was 905 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:03,840 Speaker 1: all about the evolution of animals for urban settings, and 906 00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,799 Speaker 1: he has a whole chapter on the evolution of blackbirds 907 00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,600 Speaker 1: in urban settings, and he's essentially advancing a case based 908 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,440 Speaker 1: on multiple studies that the urban blackbird is in the 909 00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:17,040 Speaker 1: middle of becoming a distinct species separate from forest blackbirds 910 00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:21,120 Speaker 1: because of all the changes that the city dwelling populations 911 00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,600 Speaker 1: are undergoing. That's right, Yeah, and he The Skilled Skilled 912 00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:28,520 Speaker 1: Housing has one chapter where he talks just about pigeons 913 00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,359 Speaker 1: the darkness. Pigeons, the pigeons of darkness, if you will 914 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,480 Speaker 1: um because he talks not only in this book about 915 00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:38,200 Speaker 1: a physical and you know, systematic changes in the city, 916 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,960 Speaker 1: but also about chemical challenges such as you know, pollution, 917 00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:45,480 Speaker 1: basic chemical pollution. And he points to several examples of 918 00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:49,400 Speaker 1: organisms as at large that have adapted to survive and 919 00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:53,239 Speaker 1: polluted environments, such as the widespread fish known as the 920 00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,799 Speaker 1: mummy chog, which is just a great name for a species, 921 00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:59,600 Speaker 1: but this is an example of a creature that that 922 00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:03,799 Speaker 1: you can find thriving in very polluted areas, uh, with 923 00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:10,239 Speaker 1: the individuals exhibiting enhanced tolerance for the pollutants. So, you know, 924 00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:11,799 Speaker 1: I can't help but be reminded in all of this 925 00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:16,040 Speaker 1: of another doctor SEH's story, one that you've probably you're 926 00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:18,160 Speaker 1: probably familiar with this one Joe the Lorax. He speaks 927 00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,120 Speaker 1: for the trees. Yeah, he speaks for the trees. And 928 00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:22,319 Speaker 1: and in the book we we see fish, birds and 929 00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,400 Speaker 1: of course the some bears. They are forced to flee 930 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,440 Speaker 1: the industrial waste. But one of the points that The 931 00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,560 Speaker 1: Skilled Housing makes is that nature can find a way 932 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,560 Speaker 1: even in a once slur poisoned landscape, at least to 933 00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:40,680 Speaker 1: some level. And he discusses a really interesting Avian example 934 00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:45,360 Speaker 1: of this with our our most celebrated or reviled urban bird, 935 00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:47,840 Speaker 1: and that is, of course, the pigeon. He writes that 936 00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:51,560 Speaker 1: between two thousand and two thousand four Russian geneticists in 937 00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,640 Speaker 1: you a book of a travel throughout Europe to catalog 938 00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:58,319 Speaker 1: the physical features of nine thousand city pigeons, and he 939 00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:02,680 Speaker 1: noted specifically whether they were pale or quote dark sooty gray, 940 00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,279 Speaker 1: which is a genetic distinction in pigeons. And he found 941 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:08,800 Speaker 1: that the darker birds were more common in big cities 942 00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,279 Speaker 1: than in less urbanized areas. So he wondered if this 943 00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:15,960 Speaker 1: was due to quote genetic mingling with pigeon fanciers birds, 944 00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:19,080 Speaker 1: or as something else was at work here. Now, normally, 945 00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:23,600 Speaker 1: when you see coloration patterns changing in in wild animal populations, 946 00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,320 Speaker 1: you might think this has something to do with like 947 00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:30,440 Speaker 1: either sexual signaling or maybe with predator prey relationships. Right, 948 00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:34,600 Speaker 1: you would expect maybe it's camouflage, right that you automatically 949 00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,240 Speaker 1: think of the evolutionary example of the peppered moth, which famously, 950 00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:42,160 Speaker 1: there's there's this moth in England that naturalists said, Okay, 951 00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:46,760 Speaker 1: the pigmentation on its wings is changing because of the 952 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,520 Speaker 1: sooty landscape from pollution. It needs to better blend in 953 00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,760 Speaker 1: with darkened surfaces. Yeah, that was my first thought when 954 00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:55,320 Speaker 1: I started reading this. I'm like, oh, it's gonna be 955 00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,880 Speaker 1: a camouflage issue. So those pigeons can evade, uh some 956 00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,400 Speaker 1: of the New york As who wish to eat them, 957 00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:03,680 Speaker 1: um or I presume want to eat them. Have I 958 00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:06,280 Speaker 1: told you about the box man in New York? I 959 00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:08,800 Speaker 1: don't think so. I was. I was up there for 960 00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,920 Speaker 1: World Science Festival one year, and it was one of 961 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:14,120 Speaker 1: it was It was not a major park. It was 962 00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:19,000 Speaker 1: one of these sort of carefully manicured areas between two 963 00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:22,280 Speaker 1: large skyscrapers that had a little green space. A lot 964 00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:25,720 Speaker 1: of business people coming out there to, uh, you know, 965 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,760 Speaker 1: just to check their phone, maybe eat lunch, and then 966 00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:32,440 Speaker 1: disappear again. And uh, I was doing much the same thing. 967 00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,280 Speaker 1: I was stopping for rest, checking my messages before moving 968 00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,240 Speaker 1: on to something else. And there was this guy out 969 00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:40,880 Speaker 1: there feeding the pigeons, and he had next to him 970 00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,160 Speaker 1: like a like a beer box, you know, like a 971 00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:46,200 Speaker 1: cardboard beer crate. Uh, you know, it's just some dude 972 00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,960 Speaker 1: feeding some pigeons, No big deal, pigeons coming closer and closer. 973 00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:51,960 Speaker 1: He was feeding it, and then all of a sudden, 974 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,040 Speaker 1: he scoots, stoops down, grabs the pigeons, stuffs it into 975 00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:58,280 Speaker 1: the box, and then walks away. What. Yeah, And I've 976 00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:02,760 Speaker 1: spent I spent years wondering what he had in store 977 00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:06,080 Speaker 1: for that pigeon. Maybe he was a researcher and he 978 00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,400 Speaker 1: was going to do some experiments. Maybe he It did 979 00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,840 Speaker 1: not seem like it was his his first pigeon kidnapping. Uh, 980 00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,320 Speaker 1: this seemed like he had a system down. So I 981 00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:18,360 Speaker 1: don't know if he's eating these things or if it 982 00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:23,800 Speaker 1: is uh some sort of legitimate or semi legitimate scientific 983 00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:29,360 Speaker 1: experiment he's up to or something and grotesque and horrifying. Um, 984 00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:31,760 Speaker 1: I don't know if he speaks for the pigeons. So 985 00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,840 Speaker 1: many questions, Yeah, I have them all. The mystery is 986 00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:38,720 Speaker 1: consuming me already. Yeah. And I and honestly, I don't 987 00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:41,400 Speaker 1: know to what extent camouflage would have helped that poor pigeon. 988 00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,600 Speaker 1: But this particular case, the case of the gray pigeons 989 00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,680 Speaker 1: and the pale pigeons it it turns out it doesn't 990 00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:50,640 Speaker 1: have anything to do with camouflage or mate selection, etcetera. 991 00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:56,160 Speaker 1: It's all about the poison offloading power of darker feather pigmentation. 992 00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:01,240 Speaker 1: He points out that evolutionary ecologist Marian shatter Lane provides 993 01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,680 Speaker 1: some answers via her study of Parisian pigeons. So, as 994 01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:08,440 Speaker 1: it turns out zinc and lead both bind with melanin. 995 01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,680 Speaker 1: Oh okay, so the presence of heavy metals in the 996 01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:15,640 Speaker 1: surrounding environment could have a role in selecting for different 997 01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:18,920 Speaker 1: types of pigmentation, just as a way of processing the metals. Right, 998 01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:20,240 Speaker 1: So you end up with the zinc and lead in 999 01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:23,520 Speaker 1: your system. Right. As a bird living in a urban environment, 1000 01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:26,800 Speaker 1: the darker the feather, the more of this stuff you 1001 01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:30,040 Speaker 1: can offload into the feathers because it's binding with the melanin, 1002 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:34,600 Speaker 1: which is the pigment. So darker birds are better able 1003 01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:38,800 Speaker 1: to purge their bodies of heavy metal pollutants. The researcher 1004 01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:42,000 Speaker 1: here shadow line. She found that chicks and parents exposed 1005 01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:45,200 Speaker 1: to lead exhibited darker plumage than one's raised in lead 1006 01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:50,160 Speaker 1: free environments. Paler juveniles died young, indicating that quote there 1007 01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:53,680 Speaker 1: is a real evolutionary advantage to having darker feathers in 1008 01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:56,800 Speaker 1: a polluted environment. And it has absolutely nothing to do 1009 01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:59,360 Speaker 1: with what those feathers look like. It's just the chemical 1010 01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,920 Speaker 1: properties of what's in them, right. Yeah, So I was 1011 01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:04,320 Speaker 1: I was really floored by that. It's just not something 1012 01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,520 Speaker 1: I would have would have thought of because we think 1013 01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:10,240 Speaker 1: of coloration, we do, like we said, you think of camouflage, 1014 01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:12,960 Speaker 1: you think of mating displays, uh, that sort of thing. 1015 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:17,480 Speaker 1: But just the like the physical properties of that pigmentation. Uh, 1016 01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:19,760 Speaker 1: you know that that was not something I had really 1017 01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,919 Speaker 1: considered fascinating. Oh, by the way, a couple of things 1018 01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,040 Speaker 1: I wanted to get back to from our interview with 1019 01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:28,240 Speaker 1: Jason Ward. We talked a little bit about wild turkeys 1020 01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,160 Speaker 1: in the urban environment, and I realized after the fact 1021 01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,800 Speaker 1: that that many of our listeners may not know much 1022 01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:38,160 Speaker 1: about the North American wild turkey. So these are America's 1023 01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:41,920 Speaker 1: largest ground nesting bird, standing four feet high or one 1024 01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:44,520 Speaker 1: point two meters and weighing twenty to thirty pounds. That's 1025 01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:48,000 Speaker 1: that means up to thirteen point six kilograms. So you know, 1026 01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:50,640 Speaker 1: these are the they're standing there and they're the size 1027 01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:53,720 Speaker 1: of a child and again there's they're slender. So whatever 1028 01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:58,440 Speaker 1: images you've seen of plump Thanksgiving turkey, this is a 1029 01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:03,280 Speaker 1: different creature altogether. They don't come like pre saline injected right. Uh. 1030 01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:06,240 Speaker 1: The they have a top running speed of twenty five 1031 01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:09,000 Speaker 1: miles per hour or forty point two kilometers per hour. 1032 01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:11,720 Speaker 1: And to put that in perspective, the human running speed 1033 01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:14,360 Speaker 1: record is twenty seven point seventy eight miles per hour 1034 01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:17,000 Speaker 1: or forty four point seven kilometers per hour. So if 1035 01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:21,040 Speaker 1: you're an Olympic sprinter, you have a chance at at 1036 01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:25,000 Speaker 1: out running a wild turkey. They're capable of short flight. Um, 1037 01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:28,400 Speaker 1: so we're talking sixty mile per hour or nine point 1038 01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:31,680 Speaker 1: five kilometer per hour bursts of speed in the air, 1039 01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:35,160 Speaker 1: and they boast a two inch bony spurs on their 1040 01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:39,560 Speaker 1: legs for defense. So they're they're Dionicus in a way. Yeah, 1041 01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:43,720 Speaker 1: there are. They're they're distant shades and shadows of Denonicus. 1042 01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:47,880 Speaker 1: Now you have a different encounts of encounters with wild turkeys, 1043 01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:49,800 Speaker 1: and they range from the sort of silent awe that 1044 01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:53,160 Speaker 1: I experienced in my backyard to a mad dash to 1045 01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:56,040 Speaker 1: escape their pursuit. If you look around on YouTube, you'll 1046 01:02:56,040 --> 01:03:01,160 Speaker 1: definitely find examples of both, and they can be destructive 1047 01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,080 Speaker 1: to human constructions, as you know, as you might imagine 1048 01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:07,040 Speaker 1: digging around with their with their claws. I've seen accounts 1049 01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:10,640 Speaker 1: of them scraping up automobiles. Uh, and certainly they might 1050 01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:15,480 Speaker 1: frighten you. But while they were once found throughout North America, 1051 01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:17,720 Speaker 1: they were pushed to the brink of extinction in the 1052 01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:21,760 Speaker 1: twentieth century and they've since bounced back. They've been pushed 1053 01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:27,120 Speaker 1: into urban areas by population pressures, and once they find 1054 01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:31,920 Speaker 1: their way into a predator free location with readily available food, 1055 01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:34,680 Speaker 1: well then that's that's what they go wild for. And 1056 01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:36,520 Speaker 1: so in some areas they have become a bit of 1057 01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:39,040 Speaker 1: a problem, a bit of a nuisance, And usually what 1058 01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:42,720 Speaker 1: is prescribed there is is just do not approach them, 1059 01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,960 Speaker 1: do not feed them, because as with any wild animal like, 1060 01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:50,040 Speaker 1: that's where problems occur. Now, another one of the awesome 1061 01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:52,320 Speaker 1: birds that came up in our conversation with Jason was 1062 01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:56,960 Speaker 1: the cassowary. Yes, and while the cassowary is a rainforest 1063 01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:59,240 Speaker 1: bird that as far as I can tell, is is 1064 01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,919 Speaker 1: not an herb a nuisance anywhere, um, it is still 1065 01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,439 Speaker 1: a very impressive animal. So I just wanted to add 1066 01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:08,760 Speaker 1: a few details here. So we're talking several species of 1067 01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:12,320 Speaker 1: large flightless birds that are found in New Guinea nearby 1068 01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:15,800 Speaker 1: islands and in Australia, and they reach heights of five 1069 01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:18,760 Speaker 1: feet tall or one point five meters and there they 1070 01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:22,320 Speaker 1: are just impressive animals with this bright blue coloration. They 1071 01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:25,360 Speaker 1: have this bony cask on the top of their head, 1072 01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:30,040 Speaker 1: which it reminds one of the like a dinosaurs bony cast, 1073 01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:32,680 Speaker 1: you know, like something you might see on Paris Harlfus 1074 01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:38,320 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, and the my my understanding is that 1075 01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:40,880 Speaker 1: one of the predominant theories about it is that they 1076 01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,520 Speaker 1: use it when they are running through the underbrush as 1077 01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:46,080 Speaker 1: a way to sort of cut through and push your 1078 01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:49,880 Speaker 1: branches out of the way. And they could considerably need 1079 01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,720 Speaker 1: it because they're running speed top running speedies about thirty 1080 01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:56,680 Speaker 1: one miles per hour or fifty kilometers per hour. And uh, 1081 01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:01,320 Speaker 1: when it comes to clause we have Jason mentioned that 1082 01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:05,360 Speaker 1: they are dangerous animals. To have an enclosure, you have 1083 01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:09,360 Speaker 1: to be extra careful with them and extra um, you know, 1084 01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:11,920 Speaker 1: cautious around them. And that's because they have an inner 1085 01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:17,360 Speaker 1: claw that reaches five inches in length there on five millimeters, 1086 01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:20,560 Speaker 1: So we're talking an impressive dagger. They're just stored away 1087 01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:23,560 Speaker 1: for defensive purposes. So you wouldn't want to go start 1088 01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:26,640 Speaker 1: in fights with a cast wary. No, But but and 1089 01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:30,240 Speaker 1: there there are historical accounts, especially from World War two, 1090 01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:35,800 Speaker 1: understand where American service uh men would encounter cassawaries. And 1091 01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,320 Speaker 1: there are some some tales here and there of violence 1092 01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:47,280 Speaker 1: perpetrated by castauaries against human or canine aggressors. But you know, 1093 01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:50,320 Speaker 1: they they are large, wild animals and if they are threatened, 1094 01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:53,240 Speaker 1: they are going to respond. But otherwise I would say 1095 01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:57,360 Speaker 1: that the castuaria is just a holy, blameless creature. They've 1096 01:05:57,360 --> 01:05:59,720 Speaker 1: got the pope had to prove it, Yeah, they do. 1097 01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:01,880 Speaker 1: They have the bony pope hat right there on top 1098 01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,880 Speaker 1: of their head. Now we've already talked about light pollution, 1099 01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:07,920 Speaker 1: but what about noise pollution? Yeah? This is another thing 1100 01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:12,080 Speaker 1: Jason mentioned was that when we asked him about mating 1101 01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:15,640 Speaker 1: for birds in cities, what kind of pressures existed, And 1102 01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:17,920 Speaker 1: he mentioned that a major problem for bird mating in 1103 01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:20,520 Speaker 1: cities is that lots of birds have courtship rituals that 1104 01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:23,760 Speaker 1: involve song. But if a male bird's mate calling song 1105 01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:26,640 Speaker 1: can't be heard over all the traffic and jackhammers and 1106 01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:29,640 Speaker 1: so forth. How can the birds reproduce? How can they survive? 1107 01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:32,080 Speaker 1: This sounds like a question from a Harry Nielsen song 1108 01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:38,560 Speaker 1: for some reason. You know, how can the birds stamp copyright? 1109 01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:41,000 Speaker 1: Don't steal my intellectual property? That song is gonna be 1110 01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:44,520 Speaker 1: a top ten So actually, also in his book Skill 1111 01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:47,120 Speaker 1: tousand has a whole chapter on this, just on bird 1112 01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:51,080 Speaker 1: song within cities. And one key study here that's pretty 1113 01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:55,280 Speaker 1: interesting is won by Hans slab Acorn and Margarette Pete 1114 01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:59,280 Speaker 1: from two thousand three published in Nature called Ecology birds 1115 01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:03,320 Speaker 1: sing at a higher pitch in urban noise. Pretty straightforward findings. 1116 01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:07,960 Speaker 1: They found that male great tits or parsis major quote 1117 01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:13,440 Speaker 1: at noisy locations sing with a higher minimum frequency, thereby 1118 01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:17,360 Speaker 1: preventing their songs from being masked to some extent by 1119 01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:21,640 Speaker 1: the predominantly low frequency noise. So if you are singing 1120 01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:24,800 Speaker 1: at the same frequency as the traffic, it's gonna be 1121 01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:27,080 Speaker 1: hard to hear you, even if you sing very loud. 1122 01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:29,800 Speaker 1: But if you sing it higher frequencies than the traffic, 1123 01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,080 Speaker 1: then you have a better chance of being picked out 1124 01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:34,960 Speaker 1: from the background noise. So this is showing a pressure 1125 01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:38,720 Speaker 1: for urban dwelling great tits, or birds generally that that 1126 01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:42,560 Speaker 1: sing to attract mates to sing it higher frequencies to 1127 01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:46,360 Speaker 1: be picked out more easily from all of the industrial 1128 01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:49,920 Speaker 1: machinery and jackhammers and construction and cars and busses and 1129 01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:52,560 Speaker 1: everything you would normally hear in the city. But of course, 1130 01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:55,280 Speaker 1: other general findings are that great tits aren't the only 1131 01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:58,160 Speaker 1: birds that do this, And one of the big questions 1132 01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:02,440 Speaker 1: is does this happen by ever luction, meaning that over generations, 1133 01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:06,120 Speaker 1: genes for higher pitch songs are becoming more common over time, 1134 01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:10,680 Speaker 1: or does this happen by plasticity, meaning our birds actively 1135 01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:14,160 Speaker 1: adjusting the pitch and reaction to the environment. And it 1136 01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:16,960 Speaker 1: looks like there's some cases of both, right, Sometimes it's 1137 01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:21,080 Speaker 1: genetic and sometimes it's just plasticity. Sometimes a bird put 1138 01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:23,920 Speaker 1: into a higher noise environment will actually sing at a 1139 01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:27,080 Speaker 1: higher pitch to adjust. But skill Tousm points out that 1140 01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:29,879 Speaker 1: this is in competition with some other pressures, for example, 1141 01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:33,320 Speaker 1: some bird species. In some some of these species, research 1142 01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:37,840 Speaker 1: shows that in natural settings, females generally prefer males with 1143 01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:41,120 Speaker 1: lower voices. A deep voice is more attractive to them. 1144 01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:44,200 Speaker 1: Because it seems to better signal fitness. Thus, there's a 1145 01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:48,120 Speaker 1: sexual selection advantage for lower frequency songs. But in cities 1146 01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:53,080 Speaker 1: those preferable lower frequency songs can't be heard, So there's 1147 01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:56,839 Speaker 1: an environmental pressure going opposite of the sexual selection pressure. 1148 01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:00,599 Speaker 1: Because ultimately, it doesn't matter how much of like an 1149 01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:04,200 Speaker 1: avian berry why you are. If you can't be heard, 1150 01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:07,280 Speaker 1: it's not gonna make an impact. Right, they can't get 1151 01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:12,160 Speaker 1: any of your love. Better to be a little Richard 1152 01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:14,360 Speaker 1: or one of the beaches. Right. If that's the only 1153 01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:16,200 Speaker 1: way to be heard, that's the only way to be heard. 1154 01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:20,200 Speaker 1: One more interesting study of how human noise affects birds 1155 01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:22,400 Speaker 1: skilled House and mentions this one in his book as 1156 01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:26,479 Speaker 1: well is associated with a University of Colorado researcher named 1157 01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:29,680 Speaker 1: Clinton Francis who studied the effects of industrial noise on 1158 01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:33,960 Speaker 1: bird populations in the desert of New Mexico. Because that 1159 01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:36,439 Speaker 1: was actually an interesting place because what you've got in 1160 01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:39,640 Speaker 1: the desert New Mexico is it's full of oil and 1161 01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:43,200 Speaker 1: gas wells, and some oil and gas wells have these 1162 01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:47,000 Speaker 1: noisy compressors and others don't, and they're pretty quiet, and 1163 01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:50,560 Speaker 1: this allows you to isolate pretty much just the variable 1164 01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:53,559 Speaker 1: of noise, because the surrounding environment is otherwise the same 1165 01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:57,720 Speaker 1: and so the only thing that's different is whether industrial 1166 01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:01,160 Speaker 1: noise is present. And in studying the differences between these 1167 01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:03,960 Speaker 1: noisy versus quiet oil and gas wells, he and his 1168 01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:07,080 Speaker 1: team found that birds with a lower frequency call or 1169 01:10:07,160 --> 01:10:10,439 Speaker 1: songs such as morning the morning dove, were absent from 1170 01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:15,719 Speaker 1: the noisy well locations, probably because they couldn't be heard. Meanwhile, 1171 01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:19,040 Speaker 1: birds with high pitch voices, like the chipping sparrow were 1172 01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:22,640 Speaker 1: all around them, and some birds he found even preferred 1173 01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:26,920 Speaker 1: the noisy areas, presumably because the noise drove away predators. 1174 01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:29,080 Speaker 1: So if you're a bird that gets preyed on by 1175 01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:31,600 Speaker 1: one of these low voiced predators that doesn't like the 1176 01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:34,840 Speaker 1: noisy areas, then you might do well to put up 1177 01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:38,479 Speaker 1: nests right beside this humming compressor. Now, we asked Jason 1178 01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:42,240 Speaker 1: in our interview about the the idea of future evolution 1179 01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:49,040 Speaker 1: in a city. What kinds of spectacular or or lackluster 1180 01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:51,599 Speaker 1: forms will we see in the future, Uh, you know, 1181 01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:54,680 Speaker 1: things like we'll rat raccoons drive cars, or how the 1182 01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:57,960 Speaker 1: cars as it as it were, I mean, what what 1183 01:10:58,120 --> 01:11:02,040 Speaker 1: kind of future evolution might place in a human urban environment. 1184 01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:05,680 Speaker 1: Do raccoons not drive cars? Now, there's gotta be some 1185 01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:09,160 Speaker 1: YouTube videos. I think they're so skilled and they're so secretive. 1186 01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:12,720 Speaker 1: The coyotes are probably driving cars. We just don't see them, right. Uh. 1187 01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:15,680 Speaker 1: Of course, we were gonna have carnivorous predatory rats that 1188 01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:21,000 Speaker 1: attack large prey by swarming. What is the classic movie 1189 01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:24,360 Speaker 1: about what Food of the Gods? Is that about urban rats? 1190 01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:27,679 Speaker 1: I'd swarming over everybody? You know, I am way behind 1191 01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:30,439 Speaker 1: on rats warm movies. I've gotta I've got to catch 1192 01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:34,600 Speaker 1: up on that. No. Actually, I mean, in addition to 1193 01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:37,240 Speaker 1: all of the stuff we have already talked about, I mean, 1194 01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:40,759 Speaker 1: I think we should not be surprised if many years 1195 01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:43,360 Speaker 1: down the road we see lots of the wildlife dwelling 1196 01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:47,840 Speaker 1: within cities, having adaptations like adaptations to climb and dwell 1197 01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:52,760 Speaker 1: on smooth, rocky surfaces like buildings and stuff, and adapted 1198 01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:57,840 Speaker 1: resistance against poisons and pollutants and traps and obvious stuff 1199 01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:00,439 Speaker 1: you would expect. But another thing that I think might 1200 01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:04,280 Speaker 1: be an interesting general trend among all kinds of animals 1201 01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:10,600 Speaker 1: is a selection driving towards animals that are more neophilic, 1202 01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:15,160 Speaker 1: meaning attracted to unusual objects. We talked a little bit 1203 01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:17,519 Speaker 1: about this in the last episode about how often in 1204 01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:20,040 Speaker 1: nature it pays to be conservative and to not go 1205 01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:23,400 Speaker 1: near things that are unusual because they could be dangerous. 1206 01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:26,080 Speaker 1: But in cities a lot of times things that are 1207 01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:29,720 Speaker 1: unusual are going to be rewarding. Yeah. Yeah, we talked 1208 01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:32,960 Speaker 1: about the raccoon, and it's especially the urban raccoon, and 1209 01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:35,960 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's proclivity to just jump in there 1210 01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:38,240 Speaker 1: and try something, just to start filling with it and 1211 01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:41,120 Speaker 1: see what its secrets are. Yeah. So, animals that are 1212 01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:45,440 Speaker 1: more and more willing to investigate and figure out unusual 1213 01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:50,200 Speaker 1: objects and situations I think are gonna generally have some 1214 01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:52,720 Speaker 1: some things working out in their favor. In cities, they're 1215 01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:55,320 Speaker 1: going to be getting more nutrition coming across more and 1216 01:12:55,360 --> 01:12:58,280 Speaker 1: more delicious garbage of various kinds that we we can't 1217 01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:02,599 Speaker 1: even imagine the garbage of tomorrow. And uh so you're 1218 01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:06,000 Speaker 1: gonna have this selection pressure towards neophilia, which also I 1219 01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:09,000 Speaker 1: think will mean more of a pressure towards animals that 1220 01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:12,920 Speaker 1: are comfortable with humans around. Right now, this only works 1221 01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:16,960 Speaker 1: if the humans don't exert a counter pressure by attacking 1222 01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:20,360 Speaker 1: the animals when they come around. Right, So here's my 1223 01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:24,800 Speaker 1: my two pronged prediction. Animals with neophilia more likely to 1224 01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:29,240 Speaker 1: come around weird novel situations and objects and to approach humans, 1225 01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:32,479 Speaker 1: but also animals that are at the same time cuter 1226 01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:35,200 Speaker 1: and cuter. Ah. Well, and this we get into that 1227 01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:39,240 Speaker 1: the classic rivalry between the possum and the raccoon. Yeah, 1228 01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:41,519 Speaker 1: because the raccoon, the adult raccoon is cute, and the 1229 01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:44,120 Speaker 1: babies of course are super adorable. But with the possum, 1230 01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:47,439 Speaker 1: the babies are adorable, but the the adults are a 1231 01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:51,760 Speaker 1: little ghastly in appearance. But imagine the possum of the 1232 01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:56,559 Speaker 1: future that like, it's too cute to call the pest 1233 01:13:56,640 --> 01:14:00,280 Speaker 1: control on. You know, oh so maybe yeah, I see 1234 01:14:00,320 --> 01:14:04,439 Speaker 1: there being an evolutionary advantage in being a cute possum, 1235 01:14:04,479 --> 01:14:09,840 Speaker 1: and therefore, uh, Nature's up selecting four cute possums. So 1236 01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:13,280 Speaker 1: basically I'm predicting a future with cities full of humans 1237 01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:18,559 Speaker 1: and e walks. Uh, you know, very curious problem solving 1238 01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:21,479 Speaker 1: teddy bears that are so cuddly looking. But of course 1239 01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:23,559 Speaker 1: the other side did this. I can't help but think, 1240 01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:25,840 Speaker 1: and I imagine you probably thought about this too as 1241 01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:28,000 Speaker 1: a dog owner, is that it's it's one thing to 1242 01:14:28,040 --> 01:14:30,559 Speaker 1: be able to get along with the humans, but you're 1243 01:14:30,680 --> 01:14:32,759 Speaker 1: ultimately going to have to get along with their dogs 1244 01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:35,240 Speaker 1: as well. That's because if you were seen as a 1245 01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:39,519 Speaker 1: threat to somebody's fur baby, uh, then that's gonna be 1246 01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:42,320 Speaker 1: a reason for the humans to rise up against you 1247 01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:45,800 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I mean, so there's there's always gonna 1248 01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:47,960 Speaker 1: be things intention right. You know, some animals are going 1249 01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:51,680 Speaker 1: to be selected for because they they're scrappers and their 1250 01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:55,320 Speaker 1: fighters and they can survive tough competition environments, and other 1251 01:14:55,360 --> 01:14:58,160 Speaker 1: things are going to be selected for because they're perceived 1252 01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:02,080 Speaker 1: as harmless and they get along. Well. I guess I'm 1253 01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:04,680 Speaker 1: not ultimately sure which pressure will win out though, I 1254 01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:07,559 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, if you've got humans, a city 1255 01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:11,280 Speaker 1: full of humans, and humans have all these pest control 1256 01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:16,439 Speaker 1: tactics in their arsenal, it does seem like urban dwelling 1257 01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:20,840 Speaker 1: animals would do well to do everything they can not 1258 01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:25,640 Speaker 1: to be perceived as pests. Now, one other issue that 1259 01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:27,840 Speaker 1: comes to mind on this is just that it's easy 1260 01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:31,040 Speaker 1: to think of the human city is something fixed and unchanging, 1261 01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:34,160 Speaker 1: you know, it is this artificial environment that we have made, 1262 01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:37,400 Speaker 1: and we push the elements of change out of the picture. 1263 01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:40,400 Speaker 1: But of course cities undergo constant evolution of their own. 1264 01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:46,799 Speaker 1: Sort of course technology changes, uh, environmental policies change. Uh. 1265 01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:49,760 Speaker 1: People realize, oh, we need more plants around, we need 1266 01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:53,280 Speaker 1: more parks, or you look at some of these more gosh, 1267 01:15:53,360 --> 01:15:56,360 Speaker 1: I haven't really looked at any of the some of 1268 01:15:56,400 --> 01:15:59,160 Speaker 1: these recently, but you've seen these plans for the future 1269 01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:03,360 Speaker 1: cities where everything's covered in green. It's it's like the 1270 01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:07,240 Speaker 1: hanging gardens of Babylon all over again. And and you 1271 01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:09,479 Speaker 1: can imagine how an initiative like that, if it were 1272 01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:12,519 Speaker 1: really carried out to its full potential, how that would 1273 01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:15,000 Speaker 1: alter some of the factors that we've set up here. Well, 1274 01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:16,759 Speaker 1: at the end of his book, Skill touse And actually 1275 01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:20,519 Speaker 1: lays out a plan for designing good green spaces within 1276 01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:25,720 Speaker 1: cities that would be favorable toward the evolution of urban organisms. 1277 01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:28,559 Speaker 1: You know, so like the the animals and plants living 1278 01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:32,439 Speaker 1: within cities, they could we could design green spaces and 1279 01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:35,200 Speaker 1: cities that help them out, or green spaces and cities 1280 01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:38,080 Speaker 1: that destroy them. And so he's got this whole plan 1281 01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:39,920 Speaker 1: for how best to do that, and one of his 1282 01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:42,320 Speaker 1: key points. He's got several points, I think four of them, 1283 01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:45,879 Speaker 1: but one of his key points is that while normally 1284 01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:49,679 Speaker 1: you don't want to favor like normally, if you were 1285 01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:52,280 Speaker 1: creating a garden or something like that, it would be 1286 01:16:52,320 --> 01:16:55,000 Speaker 1: great to favor native species species that are local to 1287 01:16:55,040 --> 01:16:58,960 Speaker 1: the area where this garden is. But in urban environments, 1288 01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:03,640 Speaker 1: there's an indication that urban environments are essentially a fundamentally 1289 01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:08,000 Speaker 1: different kind of environment now than the surrounding landscape. So 1290 01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:10,280 Speaker 1: there is a case to be made, and he sort 1291 01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:12,400 Speaker 1: of makes this case that maybe what you should do 1292 01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:16,360 Speaker 1: is select the types of plants that are already thriving 1293 01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:20,000 Speaker 1: within the city, as opposed to trying to favor what's 1294 01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:23,840 Speaker 1: local to the surrounding countryside. Because the surrounding country side 1295 01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:27,320 Speaker 1: is dead in the city the city, you're not gonna 1296 01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:29,040 Speaker 1: be able to bring it back to that level in 1297 01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:32,680 Speaker 1: most cases. Um And and there are other changes one 1298 01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:35,519 Speaker 1: has to take into account too, I mean, for starters, 1299 01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:39,920 Speaker 1: is just the realization that humans are never shy about 1300 01:17:39,960 --> 01:17:43,400 Speaker 1: taking a step or even a massive step backwards UH 1301 01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:47,479 Speaker 1: in their UH, in their their their policy making, and 1302 01:17:47,560 --> 01:17:52,320 Speaker 1: their attention to UH to to their environment. So one 1303 01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:54,760 Speaker 1: has to consider that all you can't you can't just 1304 01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:58,120 Speaker 1: count on progress, right and uh and then or you know, 1305 01:17:58,120 --> 01:18:00,559 Speaker 1: in a way, it's like like taking the step back 1306 01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:03,160 Speaker 1: comes with progress because you take that one step forward 1307 01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:05,280 Speaker 1: and you're like, hey, well we did this, We maybe 1308 01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:08,519 Speaker 1: we can not worry as much about this other area 1309 01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:13,719 Speaker 1: of of of urban environmental development. Also just the fact 1310 01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:16,880 Speaker 1: that they have something. Something were to happen to the 1311 01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:21,439 Speaker 1: human species, our cities would not continue on cared for 1312 01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:25,320 Speaker 1: by robot caretakers just yet. They would fall into ruin 1313 01:18:25,360 --> 01:18:29,599 Speaker 1: and decay. They would become a drastically different artificial environment 1314 01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:33,840 Speaker 1: as they cascaded back to something resembling the original ecosystem 1315 01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:36,360 Speaker 1: of the area. And in some cases too, we have 1316 01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:39,320 Speaker 1: to look at, say, our our coastal cities and how 1317 01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:43,559 Speaker 1: rising seawaters are going to affect those locations, portions of 1318 01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:49,560 Speaker 1: those cities potentially being underwater and becoming an aquatic marine habitat. 1319 01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:51,719 Speaker 1: And of course we've seen that for thousands of years 1320 01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:53,960 Speaker 1: with the cities that have sunken into the sea due 1321 01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:57,120 Speaker 1: to say seismic activity, where they ceased to be a 1322 01:18:57,200 --> 01:19:02,040 Speaker 1: human habitat and an artificial uh uh ecosystem for land 1323 01:19:02,120 --> 01:19:05,360 Speaker 1: dwelling creatures, and now they are a habitat for the 1324 01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:09,080 Speaker 1: marine species that live in the vicinity. Can you imagine 1325 01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:12,479 Speaker 1: in thousands of years the atlantis like myths that people 1326 01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:15,519 Speaker 1: will tell about the fabled land of Miami or of 1327 01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:18,840 Speaker 1: New York City that used to be this once great 1328 01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:21,680 Speaker 1: city that has sunken into the ocean. Yeah, I mean, 1329 01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:24,200 Speaker 1: Miami is a great example of a city that we're 1330 01:19:24,200 --> 01:19:25,760 Speaker 1: talking about. Like the idea of a city is a 1331 01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:29,400 Speaker 1: fixed and unchanging thing, like Miami was built with with 1332 01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:32,920 Speaker 1: that kind of notion in mind. Let's let's build this 1333 01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:35,760 Speaker 1: fixed thing in an area that is not fixed, in 1334 01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:39,920 Speaker 1: an area that is highly susceptible to h to alteration 1335 01:19:40,800 --> 01:19:42,920 Speaker 1: because of the sea. But then one of the take 1336 01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:46,400 Speaker 1: comes here is that animals, birds, these other species we've 1337 01:19:46,479 --> 01:19:49,360 Speaker 1: talked about, Like, that is how life works. That is 1338 01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:53,040 Speaker 1: how real life works. It adapts, it rolls with change. 1339 01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:58,439 Speaker 1: Humans are the ones that are entirely resistant to that 1340 01:19:58,520 --> 01:20:02,439 Speaker 1: sort of change. Yeah, well, the wildlife adapts to the environment, 1341 01:20:02,439 --> 01:20:04,840 Speaker 1: but the environment is changed by the wildlife, and the 1342 01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:08,200 Speaker 1: environment changes for reasons of its own. I mean, obviously 1343 01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:10,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't do this on purpose. But the environment is 1344 01:20:10,400 --> 01:20:14,120 Speaker 1: also always changing. The only constant is change at every 1345 01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:16,880 Speaker 1: level of everything. Yeah, and of course that just brings 1346 01:20:16,920 --> 01:20:20,200 Speaker 1: us back to our eaching episode from a few weeks back. 1347 01:20:20,240 --> 01:20:23,080 Speaker 1: So if you want to hear more about about the 1348 01:20:23,160 --> 01:20:26,480 Speaker 1: nature of change and uh IN in the human experience, 1349 01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:29,240 Speaker 1: then then that's a great episode to return to. And 1350 01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:32,440 Speaker 1: of course you'll find that episode and all other episodes 1351 01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:35,200 Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blow your Mind at our website Stuff 1352 01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:37,559 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com that as at all, 1353 01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:39,760 Speaker 1: as well as a blog post and links out to 1354 01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:42,280 Speaker 1: our various social media accounts. Of course, you can also 1355 01:20:42,320 --> 01:20:45,280 Speaker 1: get the podcast wherever you get your podcasts, and we 1356 01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:49,000 Speaker 1: just urge you to support the show uh by leaving 1357 01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:51,800 Speaker 1: us a review if they're If there are stars available, 1358 01:20:52,200 --> 01:20:55,479 Speaker 1: throw us throws five star, throws in stars however many, 1359 01:20:55,520 --> 01:20:58,280 Speaker 1: whatever the maximum is, that would be great. Maybe a 1360 01:20:58,360 --> 01:21:01,040 Speaker 1: nice review as well. That's right now. Big thanks as 1361 01:21:01,080 --> 01:21:04,719 Speaker 1: always to our wonderful audio producers Alex Williams and Tory Harrison. 1362 01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:06,760 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 1363 01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:09,599 Speaker 1: directly to let us know your feedback about this episode 1364 01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:12,680 Speaker 1: or any other, or to let us know topic you 1365 01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:15,000 Speaker 1: think we should cover in the future, just to say hi, 1366 01:21:15,200 --> 01:21:16,960 Speaker 1: tell us who you are, how you found out about 1367 01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:19,519 Speaker 1: the show, and so forth. You can always email us 1368 01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:33,320 Speaker 1: at blow the Mind at how stuff works dot com 1369 01:21:33,360 --> 01:21:35,800 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. 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