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Speaker 1: You're listening to Alive Again, a production of Psychopia Pictures

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Speaker 1: and iHeart Podcasts. So today I'm Alive Again. I'm thrilled

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Speaker 1: to welcome a visionary and true pioneer in the world

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Speaker 1: of psychedelic research. Rick Doblin is the founder and executive

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Speaker 1: director of MAPS, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, a

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Speaker 1: nonprofit that has been at the forefront of exploring the

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Speaker 1: therapeutic potential of psychedelics for over thirty five years. His

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Speaker 1: groundbreaking work has helped transform how he approached healing, trauma, recovery,

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Speaker 1: and end of life care, particularly through the use of

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Speaker 1: psychedelic compounds. Rick's dedication to this field has given countless

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Speaker 1: individuals and their families hope, understanding, and peace in the

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Speaker 1: face of immense challenges. Today, we'll explore the intersection of

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Speaker 1: his work with the themes of this podcast, namely transformation

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Speaker 1: and adaptation. Rick has intensively discussed the therapeutic potential of

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Speaker 1: psychedelics for terminal patients. He emphasizes that substances like LSD

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Speaker 1: and psilocybin, when combined with psychotherapy, can alleviate end of

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Speaker 1: life anxiety and depression. For instance, a twenty fourteen study

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Speaker 1: funded by MAPS investigated LSD assisted psychotherapy in twelve terminally

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Speaker 1: ill patients, revealing significant reductions in anxiety. Through MAPS, Rick

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Speaker 1: continues to advocate for the integration of psychedelic assisted therapies

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Speaker 1: into mainstream medicine, aiming to provide compassionate care for those facing.

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Speaker 2: End of life.

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Speaker 1: Also, I would like to reveal that I have a

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Speaker 1: personal connection to Rick. We first met in the mid

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Speaker 1: nineteen nineties in Charlotte, North Carolina, where we were both

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Speaker 1: living at the time, and my partner, Patrese Burnside, was

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Speaker 1: a nanny to Rick's kids. Tragically, Patrice passed away in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven in a terrible car accident. You may

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Speaker 1: have heard me talk about my experience of grief after

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Speaker 1: Patrice died on other episodes. Well, Rick also shared that

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Speaker 1: grief and you will hear us mention Patrice a few

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Speaker 1: times during this interview, so I wanted to provide some context.

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Speaker 1: Let's go to the conversation now. It's just amazing. I

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Speaker 1: followed your career over the years, and you've dedicated your

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Speaker 1: life really to exploring therapeutic potential for psychedelics, and maybe

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Speaker 1: we could just start with you telling us a little

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Speaker 1: bit about how you first became aware of this and

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Speaker 1: interested in it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I first became aware of psychedelics through massive misinformation

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Speaker 2: and propaganda in school. Yeah, so during the sixties. I

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Speaker 2: started college in nineteen seventy one. So in high school,

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Speaker 2: what I was taught was that if you take LSD

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Speaker 2: five or six times, you're certifiably insane. That's all it took.

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Speaker 2: I was also taught that if you take LSD, maybe

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Speaker 2: even just once or several times, it really hurts your

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Speaker 2: chromosomes and you're going to have deformed children way or another.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be really bad. And this whole negativity

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Speaker 2: was something that I'm oldest of four kids. I didn't

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Speaker 2: have any older siblings to tell me that maybe that's

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Speaker 2: not true. I didn't smoke marijuana in high school. Only

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Speaker 2: one time, actually, my senior year. I remember my friend

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Speaker 2: and I rolled it up in a newspaper. We didn't

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Speaker 2: have any rolling papers, so we rolled it up the

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Speaker 2: newspaper and I thought, ma'am, this is harsh. But what

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Speaker 2: really happened was my senior year of high school, I

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Speaker 2: was learning about the other I was very you know,

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Speaker 2: indirectly traumatized by the Cuban missile crisis and the fact

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Speaker 2: that the US and Russia could blow up the whole

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Speaker 2: world after everything, been traumatized by stories of the Holocaust,

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Speaker 2: and then starting to understand a little bit more about

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Speaker 2: Vietnam my own country was doing. So in my Russian class,

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Speaker 2: a friend of mine gave me a book. I was

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Speaker 2: super shy, could barely talk, could hardly talk to a

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Speaker 2: girl at all other than my mother and sisters. And

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Speaker 2: one of my friends had a girlfriend, so I could

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Speaker 2: talk to her a little bit. But I was super shy.

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Speaker 2: So I was into reading books. My father my grandparents

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Speaker 2: had a bookstore. My dad grew up in a bookstore.

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Speaker 2: They were so poor. He learned how to read a

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Speaker 2: book without breaking the spine so they could sell it

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Speaker 2: again after he read it. So this friend of mine

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Speaker 2: in the Russian class gave me this book to read,

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Speaker 2: and I loved it. It was fantastic. I thought it

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Speaker 2: just was so inspiring and engaging and frightening and all

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Speaker 2: these different things. And I handed it back to him

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Speaker 2: and he said, do you realize that the author wrote

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Speaker 2: some of this book while he was under the influence

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Speaker 2: of LSD. I said, that's not possible. You know, nothing

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Speaker 2: good comes from LSD. It's hallucination. That's a delusion. It

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Speaker 2: makes you crazy, it's all of this. And my friend said, no, no,

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Speaker 2: check it out. Turn out he was right. It was

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Speaker 2: Ken Kesey's One Floor of the Cuckoo's Nest.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's such a great book.

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Speaker 2: What's great is yesterday my son was here for a

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Speaker 2: couple of days. He's thirty years old now, yeah, and

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Speaker 2: he was he was taking home that book.

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Speaker 1: Is that Eden Eden? Yeah, I remember eating as a baby.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, yeah, well for Teresa was helping take

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Speaker 2: care of him. Yeah. Now he's thirty and just the

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Speaker 2: other day he took home One Floor Over the Cuckoo's

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Speaker 2: Nest to read, which he's never read. But that was

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Speaker 2: the break in the propaganda wall for me.

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Speaker 1: Right that And it's a fantastic film. But the book

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Speaker 1: itself from the it's a different pov in the book. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so well written, it's so beautiful. So moving out from that,

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Speaker 1: and I should let you know that in high school

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Speaker 1: we had a we made business cards that said, hi,

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Speaker 1: my name is and I'm legally insane.

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Speaker 2: Funny.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, back in the day, because we had we had

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Speaker 1: we had dabbled.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing how you were how well now we understand

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Speaker 2: and how the big lie works.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're going to talk about that a little bit more.

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Speaker 2: That just well just how propaganda works, A big lie works,

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Speaker 2: and you know, that's that's the dilemma that we face today,

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Speaker 2: even more now what we see what's going on with

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Speaker 2: social media and with Mark Zickerberg trying to be like

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Speaker 2: elon mosk and x and Facebook. Yes, it's just really

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Speaker 2: the amount of misinformation. It's like people will often believe

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Speaker 2: what they want to believe, and you give them stuff

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Speaker 2: that makes it look as if it's true. So it's

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Speaker 2: a it's a terrible problem. You have to really be

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Speaker 2: wanting to understand the truth to wade through all sorts

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Speaker 2: of propaganda.

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Speaker 1: So your ability to see and you said, you know

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Speaker 1: the stories of the Holocaust when you were young, and

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Speaker 1: your ability to see that this sort of trauma. Did

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Speaker 1: that combine with your understanding of psychedelics to lead you

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Speaker 1: to the therapeutic development of.

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Speaker 2: That, Yeah, yeah, completely. Yeah, it was the sense of

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Speaker 2: desperation and despair about humanity and how cruel we can

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Speaker 2: be and how this repression makes things worse and so

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Speaker 2: it was this on the one hand, this despair about humanity.

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Speaker 2: On the other hand, was I would say privilege was

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Speaker 2: this sense of support. I had a very loving family.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's so said, so much of the work

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Speaker 2: we do is about people that had childhood trauma, childhood abuse,

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Speaker 2: you know. But I had a very loving family, very supportive,

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Speaker 2: and my father was a grew up as an only child.

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Speaker 2: His father, my grandfather, left from Poland in nineteen twenty

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Speaker 2: fleeing anti Semitism, flinging for his life, came to the

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Speaker 2: US with nothing. And you know, my father, by the

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Speaker 2: time he was like four or five years old, he

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Speaker 2: knew that he had to be a doctor. That was

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Speaker 2: the way out of poverty, you know, for a lot

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Speaker 2: of Jewish families. He was an only child, he had

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Speaker 2: to be a doctor. He was glad to be doctor.

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Speaker 2: But he decided that he would raise his kids in

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Speaker 2: a different way and support us to do whatever we

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Speaker 2: wanted to do. And so I felt that privilege that

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Speaker 2: support the horror at the world. And then once I

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Speaker 2: started learning about the sort of this interconnectedness that I

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Speaker 2: was learning about it both from the inner world in

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Speaker 2: a sense, you could say, from learning about psychedelics. But

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Speaker 2: also this was the time when the American I was

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Speaker 2: setting people to the moon and the astronauts were coming

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Speaker 2: back and looking at the Earth from space and the

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Speaker 2: Whole Earth Catalog, and how edgar Mitchell talked about how

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Speaker 2: that changed his consciousness and others. So it was more

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Speaker 2: this sort of political implications of us to realize that

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Speaker 2: we're all in it together. There's a great, really interesting

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Speaker 2: book I just read over the holidays called Orbital Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, and it's about people in the International Space

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Speaker 2: Station and what is like going around and the kind

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Speaker 2: of understandings have all in together. You don't see the borders,

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Speaker 2: you don't see religions. You realize we're all all birth

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Speaker 2: from one thing. So I thought that that would have

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Speaker 2: political implications. You know, once you feel that we're all interconnected,

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Speaker 2: how can you just so easily dehumanize other people or

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Speaker 2: hate for being different religions. So it was all of

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Speaker 2: that combination. And not only that, but I really I

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Speaker 2: woke up to psychedelics nineteen seventy one, nineteen seventy two

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Speaker 2: after the backlash, and I was also a protester. I

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Speaker 2: was a Vietnam War draft resistor. I didn't register for

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Speaker 2: the draft and thought I would end up going to jail.

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Speaker 2: And so I and my parents were like, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: that's okay, you know, but you're gonna have a felony

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Speaker 2: conviction like President Troup. Now you're gonna have a felony conviction,

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Speaker 2: and you're not going to be able to get any

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Speaker 2: normal job because you're going to be a felon. I'm like, well,

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Speaker 2: that's the price I have to pay. So then when

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Speaker 2: I started understanding about psychedelics and both there are political implications,

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Speaker 2: there are spiritual implications, their therapeutic implications, and that they

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Speaker 2: were so suppressed, and I had this support for my

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Speaker 2: parents to do whatever I thought I could do to

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Speaker 2: make it a better world. I focused on the psychedelics

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Speaker 2: and I thought, okay, I could be an underground psychedelic therapist.

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Speaker 2: You don't need a license for that. So that was

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Speaker 2: fifty three years ago, nineteen seventy two, and that's where

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Speaker 2: I formed my identity and my mission, and I was

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Speaker 2: just I still think, I am so so lucky and

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Speaker 2: fortunate that I had this idea when I was eighteen,

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Speaker 2: that fifty three years later still makes sense.

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Speaker 1: That's it's incredible Rick and I. You know, I just

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Speaker 1: went to President Jimmy Carter at the Carter Center was

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Speaker 1: laying in repose for days, and so we took my

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Speaker 1: family and the kids and we all went to pay

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Speaker 1: our respects. And one of his first things he did

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Speaker 1: when he came to office was amnesty for all the draft.

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad you're bringing that up. So let me

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Speaker 2: say that at eighteen, after being a draft resister and

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Speaker 2: starting to do Heygonelex, I identified myself as a counterculture

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Speaker 2: drug using criminal. That's who I thought I was, right,

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Speaker 2: and the very and the arc of my life has

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Speaker 2: been to not be counterculture, but to be culture, to

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Speaker 2: be mainstreamed, to not be criminal, but to be legal.

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Speaker 2: And I've found psychedelics to be useful tools throughout the

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Speaker 2: lifespan to continue to be using psychodols. But the first

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Speaker 2: step in this sort of transformation of who I thought

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Speaker 2: it was was Jimmy Carter's first day in office where

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Speaker 2: he pardoned all the draft resistors. Now, actually nothing happened

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Speaker 2: to me. I mean I didn't register. I had a passport,

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Speaker 2: I had a driver's license, I had a Social Security number,

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Speaker 2: I was paying taxes, I was in high school. But

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Speaker 2: none of that got me on any lists that they

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Speaker 2: came after me for not registering for the draft, So

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Speaker 2: it was they never kicked your door. Nothing ever happened

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Speaker 2: at all. And later I found out like around sixty

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Speaker 2: thousand people didn't register for the draft and nothing ever happened.

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Speaker 2: There was enough people coming to the draft boards to

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Speaker 2: be drafted that they, you know, and their I guess

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Speaker 2: computers weren't so good. They didn't have all these lists.

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Speaker 2: But in any case, it was this Jimmy Carter pardoning

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Speaker 2: the draft resisters on his first day in office. And

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Speaker 2: I'll just contrast that a little bit with well we

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Speaker 2: had with Clinton tried to end this prohibition against gays

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Speaker 2: in the military on his first day in office, but

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Speaker 2: that turned into a big scandal. He couldn't do it.

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Speaker 2: But the thing with Jimmy Carter is that he had

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Speaker 2: pardon power. He could do it all himself. So once

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Speaker 2: he signed it, it was done. And now I'll also

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Speaker 2: add that, you know, I was building a house and

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Speaker 2: he's seventy five, nineteen seventy six, and I built it

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Speaker 2: for solar energy. One of the things that Jimmy Carter

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Speaker 2: was so ahead of his time, or I shouldn't even

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Speaker 2: say he was ahead of his time. We are behind times.

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Speaker 2: He was recognizing at the time we need to move

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Speaker 2: to renewable energies, and we have ignored that and it's

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Speaker 2: not been a priority. And now I don't know that

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Speaker 2: anybody in LA can never feel safe again.

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Speaker 1: Right he was the first president to put a solar

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Speaker 1: panel on the White House.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he was way ahead of his time. But

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Speaker 2: it's a story of human kind of suppression of difficult

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Speaker 2: material of ignoring things. You know, all this climate change

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Speaker 2: denial by people that are making money off of oil

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Speaker 2: and others and political power. It's just humanity is really

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Speaker 2: adept at repression denial. And that's where I think psychedelics.

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Speaker 2: But what it means is that when you bring forth

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Speaker 2: the Freud had this term for the return of the repressed,

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Speaker 2: that what gets repressed comes out in other ways. We

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Speaker 2: see that, you know, with trauma, people bury the trauma,

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Speaker 2: but it comes out in physical illnesses, it comes out

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Speaker 2: in depression and PTSD, the return of the press. So

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Speaker 2: when you bring the repressed the surface, you can work

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Speaker 2: with it, you can refine it, you can you know,

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Speaker 2: just like this idea of absentence based sex education. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's like, let's repress sexuality that you know, you can

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Speaker 2: have a healthy sexuality, but when you have a repress sexuality,

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Speaker 2: it comes out in twisted ways. So the same is

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Speaker 2: true of consciousness and yes, you know, psycho material and

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Speaker 2: things like that. So Jimmy Carter also wanted to legalize marijuana,

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Speaker 2: or certainly to decriminalize marijuana, and there was a bunch

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Speaker 2: of people in the seventies it really thought that our

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Speaker 2: culture was moving to legalize marijuana. And it was the

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Speaker 2: rise of the Parents' movements, the right wing near the

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Speaker 2: end of the seventies during Carter's one term that there

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Speaker 2: was a backlash against that. And then we ended up

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Speaker 2: with Reagan and Ronald Reagan and Nancy Reagan escalation of

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Speaker 2: the drug war just say no, And that's when MBMA

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Speaker 2: became entering sort of public consciousness, and that's why it

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Speaker 2: ended up being criminalized in nineteen eighty five, and then

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six is when I started maps to bring

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Speaker 2: it back through the FDA.

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Speaker 1: Well, I slute you for all the work that you've

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Speaker 1: continued to do relentlessly. Did you all do? It was

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Speaker 1: a twenty fourteen study with terminally ill patients.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, can you talk about that study a little bit?

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Speaker 1: And what I'm going towards, Rick, is the mechanism of

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Speaker 1: brain plasticity, and I want to I want to kind

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Speaker 1: of get into that and you know, the default network,

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Speaker 1: and I would love to talk to you about the

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Speaker 1: net zero trauma.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, idea of that.

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Speaker 1: So, the ability for the human to rebuild and to

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Speaker 1: adapt and to transform is robust and intense. And there

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Speaker 1: is a crossover with d MT and there's a crossover

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Speaker 1: with with these experiences. So I just wanted you if

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Speaker 1: you could talk a little bit about the transformative experiences

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Speaker 1: that you've facilitated in the therapeutic environment.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you mentioned that you've talked to Holocouster Viber. I

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Speaker 2: just want to mention a book by Vickor Frankel, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: who was a Holocauster rider Man, Search for Meaning. I've

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Speaker 2: read it, Yeah, and that's about how you know, many

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Speaker 2: many people were unable, were so filled with fear to

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Speaker 2: spare and random acts of murder, you know, but those

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Speaker 2: ones that survived, some of them had this sense of

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Speaker 2: meaning that that gave them meaning and purpose to be resilient.

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Speaker 2: So let me say that there was kind of a

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Speaker 2: strategic analysis that we did back when we started maps,

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Speaker 2: and that there was how do you bring forth something

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Speaker 2: that has been repressed well in a way, you try

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Speaker 2: to say that we can use this to help you

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Speaker 2: with an even bigger fear. So what is the bigger fear?

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Speaker 2: As you said, death? So there was this whole concern

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Speaker 2: about MDMA neurotoxicity and this will maybe get us also

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Speaker 2: into neuroplasticity and critical periods and all. So that there

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Speaker 2: was this concern early on raised about how oh MDMA

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Speaker 2: brain damage one dose, permanent brain damage, major functional consequences.

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Speaker 2: Of course it didn't look that way from all the

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Speaker 2: people who were taking it, but this was kind of

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Speaker 2: this and again this was during the Reagan era, and

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Speaker 2: so there was this thought that we need sympathetic patients,

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Speaker 2: and we felt that there's two main groups. One was

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Speaker 2: people with post traumatic stress disorder, particularly veterans in America,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of support for the veteran community, also

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Speaker 2: women's survivors of sexual assault. So that MDMA assistant therapy

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Speaker 2: for PTSD was one of the main ideas that we

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Speaker 2: could use to bring back MDMA, and I worked with

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Speaker 2: a PTSD patient nineteen eighty four, and that's where I

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Speaker 2: learned how tremendously helpful MDMA can be for treating PTSD.

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Speaker 2: The other is people that are dying. We're all going

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Speaker 2: to be dying. We all have certain fears about that.

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Speaker 2: So in order to address MDMA neurotoxicity, which it took

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Speaker 2: us decade and a half to really debunk that to

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Speaker 2: the satisfaction of the FDA, we started out our very

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Speaker 2: first study that we proposed to the FDA. Now this

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Speaker 2: is in the late nineteen ninety ninety one. One was

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Speaker 2: a study of MDMA with cancer patients who had only

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Speaker 2: one year or less to live, so that the neurotexasity

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Speaker 2: thing would not matter. Now, we didn't get permission for that,

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Speaker 2: and in the end, at the end of nineteen ninety

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Speaker 2: nine two thousand, we began our first study with MDMA

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Speaker 2: for PTSD, and that's what we're doing now all these

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Speaker 2: years later. But we did do a study with people

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Speaker 2: with life threatening illnesses and the study was really really

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Speaker 2: interesting in that one of the things that MDMA does

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Speaker 2: is that reduces activity in the amigdala, the fear processing

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Speaker 2: part of the brain. That's why it's really helpful both

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Speaker 2: for post traumatic stress disorder, also for people who are

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Speaker 2: fearful about impending mortality, that that you can have these

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Speaker 2: frightening concepts, frightening emotions, and because there's this reduction of

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Speaker 2: fear based processing and also self love, self connection, empathy,

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Speaker 2: that people can bring up from their fears and repression,

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Speaker 2: these concerns about either traumatic past experiences that they had

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Speaker 2: that were overwhelming that made them, you know, not trust humans,

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Speaker 2: or about their own death. I've had the privilege of

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Speaker 2: working with several people days before they died with MDMA,

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Speaker 2: and it was just beautiful. One of them was a

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Speaker 2: friend of mine had a partner who died at around

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Speaker 2: age twenty six from cancer. He was a musician and

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Speaker 2: he had it was a saxophone player, and they had

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Speaker 2: throat cancer and they were not married, but they were

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Speaker 2: in love and they'd been together for years and years,

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Speaker 2: and we ended up he was on all these medications.

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Speaker 2: What happens when you're nearing the end of the life,

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Speaker 2: often people are in pain and you get all these

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Speaker 2: pain medications. And what the pain medications do is they

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Speaker 2: kind of tranquilize you and they make you sleepy, and

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Speaker 2: you're you know, the more more pain you're in, and

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Speaker 2: the more so that you're kind of out of it.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times, you know you're hovering in this

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Speaker 2: kind of not fully aware. You know, the pain that's

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Speaker 2: being suppressed, but not completely. So it turns out when

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Speaker 2: you add MDMA to people that are on pain meds

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Speaker 2: and opiates and other things, you get a synergistic reduction

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Speaker 2: in pain. Plus the MDMA, because it's three four methylene

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Speaker 2: dioxy methamphetamine, has stimulant qualities. It overcomes the sort of

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Speaker 2: tranquilizing properties of the opiates, and it wakes people up

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Speaker 2: and so you can be more pain free and emotionally open.

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Speaker 2: And this one experience with this couple was just incredible

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Speaker 2: where they recapitulated their entire romance and just talked about

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Speaker 2: how all these years and how much they loved each other.

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Speaker 2: And it's like saying goodbye to your loved ones. It's

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Speaker 2: like you're coming back from the you know, the gates

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Speaker 2: of death. To be alive and fully there for a

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Speaker 2: period of hours is while you're able to say goodbye.

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Speaker 2: There was another it was beautiful. There was another story

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Speaker 2: that was a young woman who died in her early

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Speaker 2: thirties and we did MDMA. Her mother and I were

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Speaker 2: co therapists for a period of time. This is a

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Speaker 2: whole different psychedelics over all this period of time while

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Speaker 2: she was dealing with her cancer, the mother and father

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Speaker 2: had been divorced. This was their only child, and several

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Speaker 2: days before this woman died the final MDMA experience, the

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Speaker 2: father came and the mother and the mother decided that

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Speaker 2: she would do MDMA. There was a book written about this,

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Speaker 2: Honor Thy Daughter, that Maps publishes about this work with

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Speaker 2: this woman dying of cancer, Honor Thy Daughter. And what

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Speaker 2: happened was that at one moment again this woman was

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Speaker 2: able to wake up this pain. She couldn't even sit up,

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Speaker 2: she was so weak, and so her father sort of

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Speaker 2: held her on. It was like a family triangle where

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Speaker 2: the mother was sort of holding her arm up one inside,

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Speaker 2: the father holding her arm on the other side so

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Speaker 2: she could be sitting up watching them, and maya was

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Speaker 2: fitting of the woman. And at one moment she says,

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Speaker 2: how beautiful it is to be able to die with

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Speaker 2: your parents here, And it was like it rose out

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Speaker 2: of tragedy into this beautiful celebration of life and the

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Speaker 2: gift of life. So the Thames with Patrice. She didn't

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Speaker 2: have as long of a life as she should have,

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Speaker 2: you know, killed the car accident, but she had some

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Speaker 2: life and that's part of both the tragedy and the celebration, right.

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Speaker 2: And so I've seen this work with people with at

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Speaker 2: end of life where it becomes this celebration of life

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Speaker 2: and you emerge from this tragedy, from the sadness into

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Speaker 2: beauty and into gratitude. And so that's you know, it

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Speaker 2: doesn't happen all the time, but that's one of the

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Speaker 2: aspects of working now. One of the things that when

402
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Speaker 2: you work with people near the end of their life,

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Speaker 2: it's there's a difference in a sense than when you

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Speaker 2: work with people at PTSD because they have potential lots

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Speaker 2: of years to live. And so now we get into

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Speaker 2: this idea of how do you transform an experience into

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Speaker 2: long term benefit, long term change, right. You know, Houston

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Speaker 2: Smith has who's a scholar of world religions, has this

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Speaker 2: great statement that there's a difference between a religious experience

410
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Speaker 2: and a religious life, you know, and people we talk

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Speaker 2: more and more in the psychedelic field, people understand more

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Speaker 2: and more about the role of integration that I would

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Speaker 2: say one of the differences between recreational use of psychedelics

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Speaker 2: and therapeutic use of psychedelics is that in recreational use

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Speaker 2: of psychedelics, people are looking for the experience, but in

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Speaker 2: therapeutic use, you're looking for the experience, but even more importantly,

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Speaker 2: what you bring back from the experience into your daily

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Speaker 2: life through this process of integration, so that you change

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Speaker 2: the baseline. It's not just for this momentary experience, right.

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Speaker 2: And so what guldol And is a neuroscientist now at

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Speaker 2: UC Berkeley. She used to be at Hopkins, and what

422
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Speaker 2: she's discovered is this concept of critical periods being reopened

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Speaker 2: by psychedelics. Now, what she means by critical periods is

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Speaker 2: we all know that when you're little, it's just amazing

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Speaker 2: how little kids pick up language. And if you grow

426
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Speaker 2: up in a multilingual home, kids can become multilingual really easily.

427
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Speaker 2: You just absorb it. So there's a critical period. If

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Speaker 2: you try to learn foreign languages when you're older, it's harder.

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Speaker 2: Your brain is sort of primed at certain times to

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Speaker 2: do certain things.

431
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 1: I tell my children this, I say, guys, these are

432
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 1: your special years. Now, you know this is the time

433
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: for you to not be on video games.

434
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope they listen. They listen.

435
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, well Roman does. My other kid LEVI

436
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 1: is a wild card, but yeah.

437
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 2: So Gul has identified that psychedelics open up this critical

438
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 2: period and what's going on in this critical period is

439
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: what they call neuroplasticity. That you are able to rewire

440
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,719
Speaker 2: your brain in different ways so that you can have

441
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 2: memories that previously triggered fear. Now you would process the

442
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 2: fear and the memories would be more put into long

443
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 2: term storage. There's also issues between how if you have

444
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: PTSD the hippocampus where you put memories into long term storage,

445
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 2: there's fewer activity there and not as much connectivity between

446
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 2: the amygdala fear processing and the hippocampus, and MDMA increases

447
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 2: activity and reduces it, you know, so that it's easier

448
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,479
Speaker 2: to put these traumatic memories into long term storage. So

449
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 2: this idea though, that the longer you're in the psychedelic

450
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 2: experience itself, the longer this period of neuroplasticity lasts afterwards.

451
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 2: So if you have LSD or psilocybin, LSD lasts longer

452
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: than psilocybin. Psilocybin is about five or six hours LSD

453
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 2: is about eight to ten hours or so. And also

454
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: just to add that, what we find is that we

455
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: talked about this return of the repressed and resistance. What

456
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 2: makes LSD experiences, or what makes psychedelic experiences often last longer,

457
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 2: is resistance to it. That when you're open to it

458
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 2: and the energy flows through you, the experience and the

459
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: energy of it can be processed in a shorter amount

460
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 2: of time. Resistance keeps things in place. So we say

461
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 2: that one of our sayings for our Zendo Psychedelic harm

462
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 2: Reduction program is that difficult is not the same as bad.

463
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 2: And what I think is the distinguishing feature between what's

464
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 2: difficult and what's quote bad trip bad is resistance difficult

465
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 2: you learn from if you're open to it. When you

466
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 2: resist it, it turns into quote bad trip. And that's

467
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 2: why if you stop the resistance, you can transform a

468
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 2: bad trip into something that may be one of the

469
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,360
Speaker 2: most important things that you learn from. So the longer

470
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: you are in the psychedelic session from the period of

471
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: activity of the drug itself, the longer the neuroplasticity the law,

472
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 2: longer the critical period has opened. To the point with

473
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 2: I begain, which is a drug that takes several more

474
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 2: than a day or so to fully be processed out

475
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: of your system, that it last months this period afterwards

476
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 2: and it's weeks. You know. LSD is more than more

477
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: than psilocybin. You know, smoking DMT is shorter. So it's

478
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: it's a key aspect of And this is one of

479
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: the things that I did not know when I first

480
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 2: started doing LSD. I had the delusion, the hope, you

481
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 2: know that the more drugs I took, the faster I

482
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: would evolve. And I gave it my best shot, you know,

483
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 2: and I completely underestimated the importance of integration, and I

484
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: it took me years and years to get integrated. But

485
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 2: I think this integration.

486
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: Talk about integration, well, yeah.

487
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 2: Integration is this process of dealing with the consequences of

488
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 2: what you felt and what you learned during your experience

489
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 2: and try to, like you say, okay, I learned that

490
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 2: I'm fearful of confrontation or something, you know, and under

491
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 2: let's say an MDMA experience, you're able to handle conflict better.

492
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: So the integration is how do you do that without

493
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 2: the drug? And you practice it in a little way.

494
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 2: So one metaphor that I've used a lot. Is that

495
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 2: you know you're sort of climbing this ladder when you

496
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: do a drug. You know you're climbing this ladder. And

497
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 2: then when the drug starts to wear off, you're climbing

498
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 2: the ladder in reverse. You're trying to And so it's

499
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: very important when the drugs start to wear off, the

500
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 2: medicines start to wear off, that you pay attention, how okay,

501
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: now these anxious thoughts about tomorrow start coming in or

502
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: whatever I self respect or all these kind of things

503
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: start coming in. But then when you've watched yourself go

504
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 2: down the ladder, you can look at sort of the

505
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: rungs that are not that far from our normal approach

506
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 2: normal consciousness and try to move in that direction without

507
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: the drug. And so that's this exercise of putting into

508
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: practice and and it takes years and years, and we've

509
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: worked with people that are meditators, right, and you can

510
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 2: have a clarity of mind under MDMA or even under

511
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 2: socybin in certain ways through meditation. But once you've experienced that,

512
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 2: you can try to recreate that without the drug, and

513
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 2: that can take months or years. But they're training tools.

514
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 2: So the integration process is really about what we're trying

515
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: to do is fundamentally different than what classic psychiatric drugs

516
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 2: and the pharmaceutical industry do. They're trying to control symptoms

517
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: and not really get to the root cause. And now

518
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 2: you need to take this medicine on a daily basis

519
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: for the rest of your life. And what we're trying

520
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 2: to do with psychedelics paired with psychotherapy is to get

521
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: to the root cause, to really confront those earlier traumatic experiences,

522
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: and then through the process of integration, try to build

523
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: them into long term change.

524
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: Integration reminds me of We talk with our guests on

525
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: our show a lot about what I call the liminal state.

526
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: So you know, in anthropology, I think the liminal state

527
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: has to do with whether there was a rite of

528
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: passage or some transformational period where there was the death

529
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: of the childhood self and the adulthood self is not

530
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: yet born or integrated into the larger tribe, and there's

531
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: this liminal state wherein all sorts of things might happen

532
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: in different cultures, maybe they might experience cross dressing, or

533
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: you know, the different parts of their identity are ripped

534
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: away from them. So the childhood self dies and then

535
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: there's room for this integration before you then are inducted

536
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: into the tribe or what have you. But we talk

537
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: about the liminal states as it applies to these people

538
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: who've had these near death or brushes with death, near

539
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: death experiences, and you know, every one of them says,

540
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: I wouldn't change a thing. I asked, would you go

541
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: back and not have that car wreck? Or would you

542
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: go back and not have that shark attack? Or there's

543
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: so many weird stories that we in, fascinating stories, but

544
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: they all say the same thing. No, I would not

545
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: I would not change a thing because of what I

546
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: am now is so awesome and what I have been

547
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: able to become and the transformation that that it has

548
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: led me to. Yeah, it's fascinating and it reminds me

549
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: of did you ever see the movie Jacob's Ladder. Do

550
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: you remember that film?

551
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,239
Speaker 2: Oh? My good dad, I love that Ladder. That that

552
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: is one of the I mean, I love that movie.

553
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 2: That is one of the best movies.

554
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: I've ever seen it, right, it's fantastic.

555
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: Nobody knows about it these days. Jacob's Ladder is incredible

556
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 2: and I don't know if you want to talk a

557
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 2: little bit about it, but I haven't thought about that

558
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 2: movie for such a long time. Just it's incredible.

559
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: It's one of my top movies of all time. And

560
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: Adrian lyn is the director. But it's it's that scene

561
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,959
Speaker 1: when Danny Ailo is looking at at Jacob and he's

562
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: Jacob Singer and he says, you know, if you're scared

563
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: and you're afraid of dying, remember this quote. He says,

564
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: if you're if you're lying there and you're afraid of

565
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: dying and you're holding on to life, you will feel

566
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: like demons are ripping away at your flesh. Yeah, but

567
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: if you've made your piece, you will realize that, or

568
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: once you've major piece, who realized the demons are really

569
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: angels freeing you. But it was like this quote that

570
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: just like a diamond in my mind, and I was like, ah,

571
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: so beautiful and so brilliant.

572
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: Wow, Dan, I'm so glad you mentioned that movie.

573
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: I didn't know you were such a fan, you know.

574
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: Oh, oh, I think it was Tim Robbins.

575
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: Was he Tim Robins played Jacob Singer?

576
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, God, thank you just for that, just

577
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 3: to bring that back, And I guess I would encourage

578
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 3: people who are listening to really think about watching that movie,

579
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 3: and it is very scary in a lot of different ways.

580
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: But that's the point of it, right, Yeah, yes, but

581
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: these liminal states, it's it's it's something that and and

582
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: perhaps you know we're gonna be talking to some neuroscientists

583
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: about the release of d MT at the moment of

584
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: death for different people.

585
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll say I'm a little bit dubious about that.

586
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, I would love to hear about why that's.

587
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 2: Well, first off, I'm not a neuroscientist. We we look

588
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: for explanations for things. So one of the beautiful things

589
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 2: about developing drugs through the FDA in the medicines, yes,

590
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: is you need to demonstrate safety, and you need to

591
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: demonstrate efficacy, but you don't need to demonstrate mechanism of action.

592
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 2: You don't need to know how they work. So all

593
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: of these explanations of how things will work are interesting important.

594
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: But we also talk about this phrase translational neuroscience. You

595
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 2: know what we're learning all sorts of neuroscience things how

596
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 2: the brains work right, and you try to translate that

597
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: into something that really matters to people. So I would

598
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: say that from the point of view of psychedelics, psychotherapy,

599
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 2: nothing has translated from neuroscience to the clinic. We've had

600
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 2: people use psychedelics for thousands of years before we had

601
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: brain scants in highly sophisticated supportive contexts for healing, for spirituality.

602
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 2: So when we talk about, you know, neuroscientific explanations, how

603
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: strong really are they? The brain is so complex, and

604
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: so whether DMT is actually released at death or not,

605
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 2: it doesn't The explanation doesn't matter so much as how

606
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 2: we confront death. What is the process? Sure? Sure, So

607
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: it's interesting for people to try to figure out does

608
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 2: DMT get released? But I'm not so sure that the

609
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 2: data is so solid about that. Sure, it's just searching

610
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: for an explanation.

611
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, we could get stuck on the mechanism

612
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: rather than what actually is the process that's actually happening.

613
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more.

614
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more.

615
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just something that's kind of come up. But

616
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: there is I have heard you talk a little bit

617
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: about the default network.

618
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So Robin card Harris, I would say, is

619
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 2: this he's also now at UCSF. What he's talked about

620
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 2: was that the default mode network is in a sense,

621
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: our resting state that's what it means the default mode,

622
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 2: when you're not doing anything else, you're just sitting around,

623
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: how are you processing information? And you're processing through your

624
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: sense of self? And we could get back here to

625
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: a little bit about Abraham Maslow and he started humanistic psychology.

626
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 2: He also started humanistic transpersonal psychology. But many people are

627
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 2: taught in schools the hierarchy of needs, you know, it's

628
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: his triangle. And at the base of this is your

629
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:41,439
Speaker 2: survival needs. You know, if you're starving, if you're dying

630
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 2: of thirst, you know, you're not doing much anything else.

631
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 2: So they didn't try to serve out your survival needs.

632
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 2: And then you've got belonging needs, and then you have

633
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,399
Speaker 2: self esteem needs, and then it moves to this idea

634
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: of self actualization. You become your full self. But what

635
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 2: people do not really get educated enough about in school

636
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 2: is that in the last few years of his life

637
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: in growing awareness of psychedelic experiences and psychedelic research and

638
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 2: these states that take you beyond your sense of self.

639
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 2: So it's not just self actualization. So the end of

640
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 2: Maslow's life and started transpersonal psychology, the top of the

641
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 2: hierarchy of needs is now self transcendence. You go beyond

642
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: your it's beyond self actualization to self transcendence. You work

643
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: in service, you're part of something bigger. So the idea

644
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 2: of this default mode network is that you're scanning the

645
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 2: all the incoming input and it's being evaluated according to

646
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 2: your sort of eco sense. Is what's important to you?

647
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: Is this about survival? Is just about esteem? Is this

648
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: about belonging, you know, becoming My first says belonging, Or

649
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,399
Speaker 2: is this about me giving back? Or so that this

650
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: whole you know, concept of the default mode network is

651
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 2: essentially equivalent in a sense to our you know, sense

652
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 2: of self. Are smaller ego psychedelics that not MVMA so much,

653
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 2: but the classic psychedelics like LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, aauasca, all

654
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 2: these things I began. They reduce activity in this default

655
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 2: mode network. So we're no longer scanning for what's useful

656
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 2: for this body, for this individual human, and you're taking

657
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 2: in more raw information. And that's where people feel they

658
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: go beyond themselves and they identify with the whole world,

659
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 2: with the whole history, with all of evolution, that we're

660
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 2: part of something bigger. You could talk about it as

661
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,959
Speaker 2: in a way as you know, the quantum field, where

662
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 2: we know that things are somehow or other all interconnected, right,

663
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: you know, through these vibrations, so that there's this whole

664
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: kind of reduction of activity in the default mode network.

665
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 2: And that's often people confuse the loss of sense of

666
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 2: self with actual physical death. Stan Roff talked about this thing.

667
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 2: It was hilarious. He worked with a bunch of people

668
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: that had before he did LSD himself. This is in

669
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 2: the fifties, and he saw them do this, you know,

670
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 2: fear that they were actually dying, and he would reassure you,

671
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 2: you're not actually dying. Just let go trust, let go

672
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 2: be open. Bill Richards talks about that, and so then

673
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 2: it was his time to take LSD, and under the

674
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 2: LSD stand started going through this sense of loss of self,

675
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 2: and he also felt that he might be physically dying.

676
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 2: And he told himself this story is that when he

677
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 2: was young, he had this allergy and somehow or other

678
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 2: that changed his chemistry. And so even though all these

679
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 2: other people weren't dying and he reassured them they weren't,

680
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 2: actually he was right, you know. And then over a

681
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 2: while he worked through that and realized so the default

682
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 2: mode network and the reduction of activity in it is

683
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: a key understanding for the mode of activity for classic psychedelics.

684
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: And you spent some time with gruff, right, you.

685
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 2: A lot As my mentor, I spent a lot of

686
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 2: time with it.

687
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: And then and then I know of him through the

688
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 1: breathing work.

689
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 2: That, yeah, the whole drub. It is a beautiful thing.

690
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 2: Because when psychedelics got criminalized and research were shut down,

691
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 2: a lot of people said, oh, we're done with psychologs,

692
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 2: We're going to meditation, or we're doing this or that.

693
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: What Stan did is he developed through hyper ventilation what

694
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: he called holotropic breathwork, which was a way to bring

695
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 2: out similar experiences to when you're under the influence of

696
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 2: LSD or classic psychedelics. The important point there is to

697
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 2: realize that these experiences are not in the pill. They're

698
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 2: in us, and we don't need a pill. You just

699
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: breathe a little different and things come up. So that

700
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 2: I think that was the beauty of what stand And

701
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 2: also he was elegant, so you know all these yoga

702
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 2: breathing and breathe through your nose and breathe through this

703
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 2: nostril and breathe through your mouth, all these different counts

704
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 2: and all this stuff. Standard just said, look, breathe faster

705
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 2: and deeper. That's a find your own rhythm faster and deeper,

706
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 2: and then you can bring this stuff. So stand has

707
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 2: been tremendous, and I know we don't have that much time,

708
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 2: so let me just do very much about Yeah about zero. Yeah,

709
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 2: that's zero trauma by twenty seventy. I heard this statement

710
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,879
Speaker 2: that if your goals are something that you can accomplish

711
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 2: in your lifetime, they're too small. Sontziero. Trauma by twenty

712
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 2: seventy is a goal for humanity as a whole. And

713
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: we are seeing the world through these filters. That's what

714
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 2: we see when you work with MDMA, When you work

715
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 2: with trauma victims, they see the world through this trauma

716
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:32,919
Speaker 2: lens and they're easily triggered. And so we have humanity

717
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: as a whole is multigenerational trauma. We have the history

718
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 2: of mass murder, of just struggle for survival of all

719
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 2: of this. So MDMA can help individuals as can other psychedelics,

720
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 2: with therapy, with integration, can help others integrate and process trauma.

721
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 2: And not only that, but you can change the epigenetic

722
00:40:55,719 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 2: mechanisms by which multigenerational trauma is passed from parent to child.

723
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 2: Either the mother or the father can change. It's not

724
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: changing DNA, but it changed what turns on GENA. It's epigenetic,

725
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 2: it's above the genes. You can change that. So the

726
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 2: idea of net zero trauma doesn't mean no drama. There's

727
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 2: always going to be death, there's always going to be accidents,

728
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 2: there's always going to be illness, There's always going to

729
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 2: be human cruelty. But we hope it shrinks to you know,

730
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 2: like Grover Norquiz talked about how he wanted to shrink

731
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,959
Speaker 2: the federal government to the size where he could drown

732
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 2: it in a bathtub, you know. And so yeah, we

733
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 2: want to shrink the global burden of trauma to where

734
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 2: we could write. So the idea of net zero trauma

735
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 2: means that we're not adding to the burden of trauma.

736
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 2: Net zero doesn't mean no trauma. It means just that

737
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: what we see with LA, what just happened with the

738
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 2: fires with LA. But there's estimates that by twenty fifty

739
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 2: there could be over a billion climate refugees. Now they're

740
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: going to destablis are already turning people right wing and

741
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 2: native as protectionist. It's going to be. So the sense

742
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 2: is just that the burden of trauma on humanity is

743
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 2: going to grow, right, And what we want to do

744
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 2: is spread healing technologies as fast as we can, and

745
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 2: they'll some point be this tipping point where the amount

746
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 2: of multi generational trauma that's passed on and the amount

747
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 2: of new trauma is in balance with the trauma that

748
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 2: we're healing now zero, yes, so then we reach this

749
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 2: net zero, then we can go on to you know,

750
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 2: net negative triba, right, you know, but net zero just

751
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 2: is an idealistic thing. So first off, it's just about

752
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 2: thinking globally. It's about trying to bring this to humanitarian

753
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 2: projects all over the world. And that's the vision as

754
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 2: we hope over the next couple of years or less,

755
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 2: that the MDMA will be approved by the FDA, that

756
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: they'll approve psilocybin, they'll approve other drugs, start getting these

757
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 2: out into treatment. We start hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

758
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 2: of thousands, millions of therapists, you know, in local healers

759
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 2: all over the world. And so it's just idealistic. Now

760
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,399
Speaker 2: I've been accused of Oh, you talk about you want

761
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 2: to change the world, and this is you know, you've

762
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 2: got this tools that can do it. And the answer

763
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 2: is I believe that's true. And that's so that's the

764
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 2: vision of net zero Trauma. And so now that we

765
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:26,919
Speaker 2: are really running out of time, let me just add

766
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: that MAPS is having the Psychedelic Science twenty twenty five.

767
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 2: We're having a big conference June sixteenth to twentieth in Denver.

768
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 2: The last one June twenty twenty three, we had twelve

769
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: four hundred people. It was the world's largest conference on

770
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 2: psychedelics ever. We've agd over fifteen hundred submissions for papers

771
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 2: for people to present. It's incredible. So we'd like to

772
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 2: invite people to consider coming to Psychedelic Science twenty.

773
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:54,439
Speaker 1: Twenty Anything you want me to post in the show notes,

774
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: I will do. And now you've got to go. I

775
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: just wanted to say that I think that you have

776
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 1: done and just in a beautiful like you've come along

777
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: a time not just in American history, but in world history.

778
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: I swear where the torch needed to be picked up

779
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: with this, with finding these tools and finding a way

780
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: to implement them, and finding a way to legalize them

781
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: for therapeutic use. And I feel like if you you

782
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: are the key and it's sort of a wonderful torch

783
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: that you've picked up, and we are so lucky for

784
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: your work, Rick, and we're so lucky to have had

785
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: you on our show so well.

786
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 2: Thank you. So speaking of that, though, there is maybe

787
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 2: Zen can send you this picture that you could use

788
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 2: to illustrate. It's a picture talking just you reminded me

789
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 2: of the passing of the torch. It's a picture of

790
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 2: Timothy Leary and me. Okay, and this is from a

791
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 2: conference that maps' first big conference actually that was this

792
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 2: was in nineteen ninety, okay, nineteen ninety. Timothy Leary just

793
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 2: spoke and at this conference for MAPS, and I went

794
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: up on stage and asked them this question, what advice

795
00:44:58,200 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: do you have for those of us that want to

796
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 2: work with a government to bring psychedelics back? You know,

797
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 2: what advice do you have for those of us that

798
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 2: want to change things from the inside out work with

799
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 2: the government. And tim just laughed and he said, fuck

800
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 2: the government. Of course, he said, I am so far

801
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 2: past asking for permission for anything, but I'm glad you're

802
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: doing it. And that's where he held up my hand

803
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: like this huh, and that's where I felt like this

804
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 2: passing other tours.

805
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: It is indeed a passing of the torch. But thank you,

806
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: thank you. We're in your.

807
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,879
Speaker 2: Debt, okay, great tim.

808
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: In our show notes, you can check out important links

809
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: based on our conversation with Rick. There you'll find information

810
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: about psychedelic Science twenty twenty five. You can find the

811
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 1: MAPS Integration workbook and a link where you can donate

812
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 1: to MAPS. If you support the advancement of psychedelic research, policy, reform,

813
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: and education, please make a donation to fuel their work.

814
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: MAPS relies on financial support from people like you. You

815
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: can find the Multi Disciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies on

816
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: Facebook and LinkedIn. A huge thank you to Rick Doblin

817
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 1: winning us on Alive Again. You can follow Rick on

818
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:07,760
Speaker 1: Instagram at Rick Doblin PhD and on x at Rick Doblin.

819
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 1: Next time on a Live Again, we meet singer songwriter

820
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,439
Speaker 1: Blair Kremitz, whose life, identity, and music completely transformed after

821
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:17,720
Speaker 1: a near fatal head injury.

822
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 4: The way that the accident went down is just a

823
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 4: tremendous metaphor. As this dog was pulling me on a skateboard.

824
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 4: That's just me letting the world take.

825
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 2: Me where where it wants me to go.

826
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 4: There was something else pulling me, you know, in a

827
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 4: different direction, and I was more than a little lost.

828
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 4: I hit the pavement so hard it fractured the base

829
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 4: of my skull into my ear canal, and blood started

830
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 4: pouring out of my ear.

831
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: Our storied producers are Dan Bush, Kate Sweeney, Brent Die,

832
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 1: and Nicholas Dagoski. Music by Ben Lovin, additional music by

833
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: Alexander Rodriguez. Our executive producers are Matthew Frederick and Alexander Williams.

834
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: Associate producer and production coordinator Sarah Klein. Our studio engineers

835
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 1: are Rima L. K Ali and Nomes Griffin. Our editors

836
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: are Dan Bush, Gerhart Slavitchca, Brent Die, and Alexander Rodriguez.

837
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: Mixing by Ben Lovett and Alexander Rodriguez. I'm your host,

838
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: Dan Bush. Alive Again is a production of iHeart Radio

839
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 1: and Psychopia Pictures. If you have a transformative near death

840
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 1: experience to share, we'd love to hear your story. Please

841
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: email us at Alive Again Project at gmail dot com.

842
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 1: That's a l I V E A G. A I

843
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: N P R O j E C T at gmail

844
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 1: dot com.