1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: So, like I said, the reactors pretty gold. So it 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 1: was commissioned inn and it was really commissioned because of 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: a scientist whose name was Glenn Seaboor. A few weeks 4 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: ago I made a trip to oak Ridge National Laboratory. 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: It's an eastern Tennessee nestled in beautiful green hills and 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: valleys down a long road flanked by forest. Some of 7 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: the things we're working on will not occur during my career. 8 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: How does that make you feel? It feels great. This 9 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: is Ellen Eisenhower. He's a former nuclear submarine officer and 10 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: now helps direct nuclear science research at the lab. The 11 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: research done here helped develop the atomic bomb, and its 12 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: scientists are still at it today, working toward a vision 13 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: that's a little bit hard to imagine. Right now. You've 14 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: probably heard the story the cathedral building story before. It's 15 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: about two workers laying brick on a cathedral that they'll 16 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: never see completed in their lifetimes. It's hard, repetitive work, 17 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: but one of them is always cheerful, saying that one day, thousands, 18 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: even millions of people will use what he's building today, 19 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: and he could get the vision for what even though 20 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: he knew he'd never see it he knew what he 21 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: was enabling for the future. Alan and his peers have 22 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: to think like this because what they're working on will 23 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 1: most likely never be fully realized in their careers, even 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: in their lifetimes, and when their cathedral is finally completed, 25 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: it will reshape the global economy and transform the power 26 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: dynamic between countries. And that is not an understatement. These 27 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: scientists are working on a new source for electricity. They're 28 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: trying to achieve nuclear fusion, essentially recreating the Sun on Earth. 29 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: M Hi, I'm Akito and I'm Jane caw and this 30 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: week on Decrypted work exploring just how close we are 31 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: to realizing the silver bullet for clean, cheap, abundant energy. 32 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: While nuclear power plants currently work by splitting atoms apart, 33 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: this is called nuclear fission, this other type of nuclear 34 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: energy works by smashing particles together, and that is called 35 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: nuclear fusion. Nuclear fusion has been a particularly hard nut 36 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: to crack. After decades of research, scientists are still years 37 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: away from building a commercially viable power plant, but scientists 38 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: say they're on the edge of a major breakthrough if 39 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: they can find a way to make a nuclear fusion 40 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: reaction take place. In a sustainable, controlled environment, the world's 41 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: energy needs would be taken care of, possibly forever. Stay 42 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: with us, okay, let's we're all signed in. I do. 43 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: We do have a couple of rules. Actually, I think 44 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: we can take photos today. So you wanted to take 45 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 1: a picture. Back at oak Ridge National Lab, I caught 46 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: up with Ned southof who oversees a big fusion project. 47 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,119 Speaker 1: This this is not just you know, it's more efficient. 48 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,839 Speaker 1: You know, this is ten million times more efficient. Okay, 49 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: So if we could make it work, it would change 50 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: the world that has piercing gray blue eyes and a 51 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: mop of floppy silver white hair. I spent almost three 52 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: hours with him and felt like we could have talked 53 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: for twenty more. Ned's in his sixties and has been 54 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: working on nuclear fusion since the nineteen seventies. He's still 55 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: an evangelist when it comes to the potential that this 56 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: technology has to solve the world's ever grow energy needs. 57 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: In sixteen, the world used more than thirty billion barrels 58 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: of oil, and more than eight of energy used for 59 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: things like powering homes came from fossil fuels, which are coal, oil, 60 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 1: and natural gas. Not only are these finite resources, but 61 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: The need for countries to maintain a steady supply has 62 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: sparked recessions, riots, and even wars around the world. Goddamn government, 63 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: he's gonna police this goddamn police situation. I will not 64 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: take the plan for this thing. I will not take 65 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 1: the crap and the harassment from these customers. Now let 66 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: him police it or stop telling gas anger and bewilderment 67 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: are growing. Is more and more Americans cope with gasoline 68 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: lines and empty pumps. Let himself experienced the turmoil the 69 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: follow the energy crisis of the nineteen seventies. I grew 70 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 1: up in the mid seventies when they add gas lines 71 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: because of the oil embargo. If we can solve this 72 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: challenging scientific problem, we can solve the world's energy problem forever. 73 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: That's how Ned turns to nuclear fusion, and decades later 74 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: he's still a true believer. So you go by a 75 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: typical power point. Did you know that to keep it 76 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 1: powered and cold takes roughly railroad cars of coal every 77 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: day to produce the same energy by fusion? Ready, three 78 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: pounds of tradium and two pounds of deuterium. Yeah, that's 79 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:41,359 Speaker 1: a game change. Tridium deuterium. These are all parts of 80 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: nuclear fusion that will explain in just a moment. For now, 81 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: when that's trying to say is that if scientists can 82 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: make nuclear fusion work, will have found a source of 83 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: energy that comes with no carbon emissions, much less radioactive 84 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: waste than the nuclear reactors we have today, and most 85 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: importan hortuntly and almost unlimited supply of raw materials that 86 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: can be accessed basically anywhere. Okay, so let's explain how 87 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 1: it works. First, a quick review of the periodic table. 88 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: Remember that from high school chemistry, the first element is hydrogen. 89 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: It's the latest, simplest element in the universe, with one proton, 90 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: one electron, and usually one neutron. Hydrogen is also the 91 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,119 Speaker 1: most abundant element in the universe, so unlike crude oil, 92 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: we won't be running out of it anytime soon. Protons 93 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: have a positive charge, electrons a corresponding negative charge, and 94 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: neutrons are well neutral. Protons and neutrons usually sit together 95 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: in the center of an atom, while electrons fly around 96 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: orbiting them. I mean, as you know, the Sun million 97 00:06:54,080 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: miles away produces power by transforming hydrogen into helium. Okay, well, 98 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,559 Speaker 1: we want to do the same thing. Down here on Earth. 99 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: Nuclear fusion occurs naturally in stars, including our own Sun, 100 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: where hydrogen atoms are placed under extreme heat and pressure 101 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: two seventy four thousand times hotter than the human body 102 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,679 Speaker 1: and pressure that's like being crushed under a mountain. These 103 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: conditions allows something extraordinary to happen. Normally, atoms would never 104 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: come close enough to fuse together right, but under the 105 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: intense conditions at the center of the Sun, the atomic 106 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: structure of the hydrogen starts to break down. The gas 107 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: turns into something called plasma, which enables the particles to 108 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: move faster and more freely because the positive particles, which 109 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: are the nuclei, things like deuterium and tridium, which normally 110 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: repel each other because they're both positive, can now get 111 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: close enough together, like ten to the minus twelve centimeters 112 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: that's a millions of a millions of a centimeter together, 113 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: Suddenly they stick. Deuterium and tritium, by the way, are 114 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: what's known as heavy hydrogen, basically hydrogen with extra neutrons. 115 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: They're the raw materials used in fusion reactions and can 116 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: be sucked out of sea water or produced in nuclear reactors, 117 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: and then they form this complene nucleus for a very 118 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: very short period of time, and then they break apart. 119 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: When that happens, a whole lot of energy is released, 120 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: mostly carried by the extra neutrons, super hot moving super quickly. 121 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: That energy is what we'd harness to make electricity. So 122 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: it's nuclear fusion reactions happening inside the Sun that make 123 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: it so hot. But those kinds of extreme conditions don't 124 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,079 Speaker 1: exist anywhere on the surface of the Earth, not even 125 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: inside the molten lava of a volcano. The Sun's huge 126 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: mass creates a really strong gravitational force that keeps the 127 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: hot hydrogen from escaping. The Sun's gravity is twenty eight 128 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: times stronger than the Earth's. That means if you weighed 129 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: a hundred pounds, you'd feel like you weighed eight hundred 130 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: pounds on the Sun. This is a huge challenge for scientists. 131 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: How do you build a power plant that can resist 132 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: the pressure and the heat the reactor needs for these 133 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: fusions to start taking place On Earth, it needs to 134 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: be more than a hundred million degrees celsius inside the 135 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: reactor for fusion to occur, which is easier said than done. 136 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: Plasma is a very complex nonlinear system, and then we 137 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: had to learn how to understand it, and I'll control 138 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: how to control it. And so it took us a 139 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: few decades to really understand how do you control the plasma. 140 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: One of the most ostensively researched ways is using huge 141 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 1: and powerful magnets laid out in an arrangement called the tocomac. 142 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: Imagine this. The hydrogen plasma that's the super hot gas, 143 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: is contained within electro magnetic coils shaped like a donut. 144 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: More magnets surround the doughnut to give more control. The 145 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: leading configuration, the best demonstrated, the one that has the 146 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: most scientific and engineering basis, is the totomac. To give 147 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: you one example, the biggest fusion device functioning in Europe 148 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: right now, known as the jet, has a magnetic field 149 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: ten thousand times stronger than the Earth's magnetic field. The 150 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: larger the tocomac, the more powerful the magnetic fields, the 151 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: easier it is to get a fusion reaction going. In 152 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: the last sixty plus years, the world has built more 153 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 1: than two hundred of these machines, forty five or so 154 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: that are still functioning, but no experiment has been able 155 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: to sustain a fusion reaction long enough to produce more 156 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: energy than was required to get it going, which is 157 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: needed if we ever want to use fusion to generate electricity. 158 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: The exciting thing though, with how far science has progressed 159 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: and with today's technology, we're on the cusp of making 160 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: it happen. The scientific principles have been demonstrated and it's 161 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: a matter now of raising it to industrial scale. This 162 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: is reality. But of course moving this technology out of 163 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: the lab and raising it to an industrial scale involves 164 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: huge challenges. What those are and how the industry could 165 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: overcome them is coming up next. The story really starts 166 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: almost eighty years ago in the early nineties. Oakridge was 167 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: a secret town owned and operated by the US government. 168 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: It was a big part of the Manhattan Project. The 169 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: Manhattan Project was created in the middle of World War 170 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 1: Two to develop the ability to use nuclear fission as 171 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 1: a weapon. Okay, Germans discovered fish and right, we're worried 172 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: about this. That's Alison Hummel, who took me on a 173 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: tour of the historical sites at the oak Ridge Lab. 174 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: Back in scientists feared what the Germans could do with 175 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: the technology to split atoms. They even convinced a reluctant 176 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: star colleague to write a letter to the President about 177 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: the possibility fission reactions posed. This new phenomenon would also 178 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: lead to the construction of bombs. And it is conceivable, 179 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: though much less certain, that extremely powerful bombs of this 180 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: type may thus be constructed. A single bomb of this type, 181 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 1: carried by a boat and exploded into port, might very 182 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: well destroy the whole port, together with some of the 183 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: surrounding territory. Yours truly, Albert Einstein. By the end of 184 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: the war, there were eight people working here um, and 185 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: that was from the pretty much zero population in December 186 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: of nineteen. Their work was so secret that most of 187 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: them didn't even know what they were working on. I 188 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: have just returned from the White House where it has 189 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: just been announced that the United States is now using 190 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: an atomic bomb, the most powerful explosive yet. Then the 191 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: US dropped two atomic bombs on Japan, and the residents 192 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: finally learned the truth of what they were doing. Oakridge 193 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: had actually delivered the enriched uranium used in the first bomb. 194 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: The world will note that the first atomic bomb was 195 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. We run the race 196 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 1: of discovery against the German After the war, the facility 197 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: has eventually became one part civilian research lab, which is 198 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: today's Oakridge National Lab, and one part military operations. Today 199 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: Oakridge is home to a group of scientists man is 200 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: by ned working on building the world's biggest pokomac, the 201 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: magnetic Donut reactor that we talked about earlier. They're the 202 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: U S arm of a multibillion dollar multidecade joint venture 203 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: in nuclear fusion between seven entities in the world, including 204 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: the US, European Union, China, and Russia. It's called the 205 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor or EATER for short. This thing 206 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: is expensive, estimated to cost tens of billions of dollars 207 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: to complete. It's too much and too complex for any 208 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: one country, so each of the seven participants has pledged 209 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: to fund and build portions of it. There is ever 210 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: growing confidence that either when operated, will achieve the plasma 211 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: that we predict, but it won't be completed until if 212 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: things go according to plan. That's when scientists are aiming 213 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: to get the reactor up and running and forming its 214 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: first fusion reactions. But while we're trying to focus on 215 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: RACK right now is to have a plasma where we 216 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: inject fifty million wants of power and we get out 217 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: million wats of fusion power. Most power plants that exist 218 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: today work the same way that they did a hundred 219 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: years ago. You heat water to make steam, and the 220 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: steam turns turbines, which generates electricity. The difference is in 221 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: what kind of fuel you're using to heat the water. 222 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: That fuel source it can be coal, oil, natural gas, 223 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: nuclear fission reactors, and hopefully one day, a nuclear fusion reactor. 224 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: When that happens, scientists believe that we will have found 225 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: the ultimate way to generate energy. That thinks that at 226 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: this point nuclear fusion is all but a sure thing. 227 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: It will work, we just have to build it, and 228 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: a lot of international scientists are pinning their hopes on 229 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: the EATER project. While there are maybe faster and cheaper 230 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: paths to fusion energy, Ned says that this is the 231 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: least risky. EATER is on the high reliability but high 232 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: cost end of the spectrum. Okay, but there's one huge problem. 233 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: At this moment. The fusion program was limited by money. 234 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: It suffers from the same same thing that all advanced 235 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: energy research suffers. Advanced energy research is not a priority. 236 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: Ned tells me that when you look at adjusted dollars. 237 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: US funding for fusion peeked in the late seventies and 238 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: early eighties after the oil shocks. Well I was working 239 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: on on a series of devices. I was actually at 240 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: that point running US a collaboration on a variety of 241 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: devices around the world, and what we saw was that 242 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 1: we had many, many ideas that we could not afford 243 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: to follow up on. It doesn't help that most of 244 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: us non scientists don't really understand how nuclear technology works. 245 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: Throughout history, there have been some major accidents involving nuclear 246 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: reactor meltdowns. A year after these reactors at the Fukushima 247 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: Nuclear plant exploded in a triple meltdown, reporters were reminded 248 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,719 Speaker 1: this is still one of the most hazardous places on 249 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 1: the plants. One of the atomic reactors at the Churnibyl 250 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: Atomic Power plant in the city of Kiev was damaged 251 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,959 Speaker 1: and there is speculation in Moscow that people were injured 252 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: and may have died. Experts tonight say that cloud of 253 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: radiation is now dissipating over the North Atlantic and poses 254 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: no further threat to anyone, But as the Soviets treat 255 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: an unknown number of casualties, there's no way to say 256 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: how much lasting damage that cloud may have already caused. 257 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: Dean Reynolds, ABC News London. It's important to note that 258 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: the big nuclear disasters like Fukushima or churnobil involved a 259 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: different process altogether, where atoms are being split apart inside 260 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: the reactor instead of being fused together. That's the difference 261 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:21,479 Speaker 1: between nuclear fission and nuclear fusion. Here's Alan again, and 262 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: there's a lot of hyperbole about it that has played 263 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: out over the years that we have not been effective 264 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: at at countering, which is unfortunate. The damage to public 265 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: perception is hard to erase, and it doesn't help nuclear's 266 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: case that the US still has plenty of hydrocarbons, which 267 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: is oil, gas and coal. In two thousand and eight, 268 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: the US Eater Project was hoping to get a hundred 269 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: sixty million dollars in funding for the following year. I 270 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: was actually driving to Florida for Christmas vacations and pulled 271 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: up in the driveway of my parents house and I 272 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: got a phone call and it was they just passed 273 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: in appropriation for ten point six instead of one sixty. 274 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: Ned got less than ten of the funding that they 275 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: had asked for. The team had to toss the original 276 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 1: plan out the window. There was some restructuring. The main 277 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: thing was to not spend all the money they had 278 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 1: or it was game over. So that particular year, the 279 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: strategy was lived to fight the battle the next year. 280 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 1: We knew we couldn't do what we intended to do 281 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: that year, but we had to try to preserve the 282 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: capability to rebound. That was smack dab in the middle 283 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: of the global financial crisis. Other countries also pulled back funding. 284 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: Ned told me, that's at Eaters timeline back five years. 285 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: In November of last year, Ned and his team presented 286 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: a budget that laid out how much money they would 287 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: need to complete Eaters construction and achieved the first fusion 288 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: reaction in At this point, the US has already spent 289 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 1: about a billion dollars, with more than three billion dollars 290 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: to go to see it through. For seventeen, Ned requested 291 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: a hundred million dollars. You know, we just got a 292 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: seventeen budget, and they just passed a budget in April, okay, 293 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: and it was complicated. Essentially, they were given fifty million dollars, 294 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: but the Department of Energy has the options at another 295 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: fifty million. Today we've not received the second fifty. Okay, 296 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: so so we're positioning ourselves to survive at the fifty 297 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: level for fiscal year eighteen. The situation is also dire. 298 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: President Trump, who made fossil fuels and especially cole a 299 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: focus of his administration, has only approved about half of 300 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: what NET has requested, and now we're being impacted because 301 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: we're not getting the money, and so we are now 302 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: struggling to try to stay with Getting us here has 303 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: taken decades. Every element we just described took years of 304 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: dedicated research to just understand, and then many more years 305 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: to move past the theory and come up with actual 306 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: experiment results. Just getting Eater up and running won't be 307 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: enough to get us to the stage where we can 308 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: use fusion to generate electricity. The real question is, in 309 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: the next generation and a frill fusion reactor, what would 310 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: you build it out? And if you were to use 311 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: the search of things we're using on Eater, it would 312 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: turn to a powder. You know, when Ned says it 313 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: would turn into powder, he means that the materials that 314 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: exists today can't handle the kinds of harsh conditions fusion 315 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: requires over a long period of time. But a power 316 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: plant that uses usion will need to be running the 317 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: reactions constantly and for many months at a time to 318 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: make economic sense. You would chew up the material completely 319 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: and suddenly if you don't do anything about it. You 320 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: know you can reach the lifetime of thecal material within 321 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: a few days to a week. That's you're gonna wrap 322 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: a plasma. Physicist at oak Ridge National Lab, he and 323 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: Allen are working on a bunch of other things that 324 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: will be necessary to make a commercial fusion power plant work. 325 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: If you're going to have a successful power plant, it's 326 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: more than this plasma. You have to be able to 327 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 1: fuel it, you have to be able to extract the 328 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 1: heat from it. You have to have materials that can 329 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: withstand that type of environment. The best way is to 330 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: do start this development now instead of waiting until Eater 331 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: has produced its burning plasma and then we start only 332 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: developing the materials. We know that we have to develop 333 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: new maters. Innovating on these elements all require funding and 334 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: even new facilities, But like NED, they're also held back 335 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: by money. Although we build more community beyond it, is 336 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: it enough. You know, under the budget constraints, I do 337 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: not want to make a firm prediction, because it's also 338 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: out of my hands. We are ready, I would say, 339 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: we are ready, I hope so that the people in 340 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: Washington already to for now. All the uncertainty around funding, 341 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: combined with all the false starts throughout history, has made 342 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: most of these scientists hesitant to offer a timeline for 343 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: when the fusion power plant will be a reality. I 344 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: won't speculate on the exact time frame because many haven't. 345 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 1: Many have been wrong over and over again. Right, only 346 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: Ned would entertain that question. Looking at either if all 347 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: goes to plan, he estimates that we might get a 348 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: working fusion power plant around by which point Ned would 349 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: be a hundred and one years old. I I truly hope. 350 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: I mean I realized this that this endeavored to make 351 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: fusion energy a reality takes many generations. And I'm not 352 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: somebody who is discouraged by it. Um and some people 353 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: make fun of them. Maybe it's because I come from 354 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: Europe and I come from Cologne, and the Cologne Cathedra 355 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: was built over eight hundred years, you know, so so 356 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: you know it is it is worth while to wait 357 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: for it. And that's it for this week's episode of 358 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: The Did Thanks for listening. We want to know what 359 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 1: you think of this episode. Record a voice message and 360 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: send it to Decrypted at Bloomberg dot net. Also, you 361 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter at jingle bells cow and 362 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: I've met aki Eto seven. If you haven't already subscribed 363 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: to our show wherever you get your podcasts, and while 364 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: you're there, please leave us a rating and a review. 365 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: This really helps more listeners find our show. This episode 366 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: was produced by Pia Ga Kari, Liz Smith, and Magnus Henrikson. 367 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: Thanks to Nico Grant and Isabel Gottlieb for their help 368 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: with the show. Alec McCabe is head of Bloomberg Podcast. 369 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 1: We'll see you next week.