1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Guys, I want to tell you I am so excited 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: and so blessed. Something wonderful is happening. A lot of 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: you have asked when will you be back on TV? 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: And I've wondered the same thing. Well it's happening. It's 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: this Thursday night, premiering on A N E. Grace Versus Abrams, 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: my sparring buddy Dan Abrams and I take on the 7 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: biggest cases and investigations that our country has ever seen. 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: Thursday night, March nine, eleven pm. Please join us again. 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: I am so blessed, and you've been with me for 10 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: all these years. Please join me on A and E 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: March eleven pm. Thanks friend. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace 12 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one two. Where where at 13 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: the night night? Look, okay, what's going on? Me? Like? 14 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: It was more fighting, like not knowing if you were 15 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: going to make it out. We know she was innocent, 16 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: We know all this was a bunch of lies. We 17 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: know that you know new is an innocent child with 18 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: the Orlando police. Can you tell me what you know 19 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: about what's going on? What's going on that I feel 20 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: the pain of the people getting killed in Serio and something. Okay, 21 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: So so act you done something about that? Yes, I heard, 22 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: tell me what you did. Please look, you already knew 23 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: what I did. Quote. I knew when he left the 24 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: house he was going to attack the Pulse, not club. 25 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: That is what the Orlando shooters wife said. But what 26 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 1: else did she know? Forty nine dead, more wounded, forty 27 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: nine dead. Imagine going out for the night on the town. 28 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 1: You're having a good time, you're dancing, your friends are there. 29 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: Maybe somebody knew you're dating, or you're somehow managed to 30 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: drag you and your husband out for the night, and 31 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: you're trapped in a nightclub. Everybody around you has been drinking, 32 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, a hell of bullets ring out, 33 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: and there's nowhere to go. It's like shooting fish in 34 00:02:53,200 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: a barrel. The stinch of blood and dead bodies took 35 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: over the club because of one guy and now on 36 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: trial his wife. He prosecutors say new the plan and 37 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: even helped hatch the plan. And I'll tell you why 38 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: I mean to see Grace. This is crime Stories. Thank 39 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: you for being with us. You know, when I think 40 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: back on places I went, things I did, and and 41 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: uh law school and when I got out of law school, 42 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: and when I was prosecuting, digging at witnesses and nightclubs 43 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: and strip bars and the crack houses and whorehouses, just 44 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: trying to go to hell to get my witnesses, to 45 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: put the devil in jail. There are a lot of 46 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: clubs we've all been to around for whatever reason. Forty 47 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: nine dead in a hell of bullets? What did his 48 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: wife know? With me? High profile lawyer, multi jurisdictional New Jersey, 49 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: New York, you name it everywhere, Jason Oceans with me. 50 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall with me, l a psycho analyst also 51 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: with me on the story from the beginning, Alan Duke. Alan. 52 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: She says, quote, I knew when you left the house 53 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: he was going to Orlando to attack Pulse Nightclub. You 54 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: know what. Hold on, let's take a listen in real 55 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: time to the nine one one. Call me where you are? 56 00:04:47,120 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 1: Where's the nightclubs? Nightclub? Okay? What's going on? Me? Okay? Okay? 57 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: Have behind We have a lot of clubs there. Can 58 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: you tell me who's shooting? Did you see no? Okay? 59 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: Did you get anybody? Do you see anybody hurt? No? 60 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: I ran a slush as I turned this bus everywhere. 61 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: She is right here. Three. Let me get you over 62 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: to the Florida or the fire department. They're gonna have 63 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: you give her first day. Stay on the line so 64 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: we can give her first day. Don't hang up nine 65 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: one one. What is the location of being that much? 66 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: And see? Okay? Awesome? Like please, what's going on at 67 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: pulf nightclubs? I don't know what's sharing good? So it's 68 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: like crackay, hold on the line for Orlando Police Department. 69 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: Try to get yourself somewhere safe. Don't hang up the 70 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: phone right now. Home? Do you think the shooters went 71 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: our side? Okay? All right, just everyone be quiet, don't 72 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: move okay. Oh my god, oh my god, Oh my god, 73 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: oh my god, oh my god. You hear reloading. I 74 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: think we are in about from the poll we've been 75 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: waiting when they told up were coming in. Now we 76 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: have the poor people that that are and we have 77 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: a two people that are shocker that are getting worse. 78 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: We have another gut that's on the line as well. 79 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: We're getting help to them. Where are they? I don't understanding. 80 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: Everyone's getting worse. Where are they? They're trying to make 81 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: their way to you. They have not just you the 82 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: wrong way. You guys are we are trying to make 83 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 1: it through the building, but they're trying to get to 84 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: everyone as quickly as they can. I have you want 85 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: your family to know what come on? That is the 86 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: devastation that was rained down on innocent people at Pulse 87 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: Nightclub in Orlando. You know, um, Jason, you have two 88 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: children just like me, a boy and a girl. It 89 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: was just a couple of days ago. I was in 90 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: Orlando taking them to Universal and Harry potter Land and 91 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: the John F. Kennedy Space Center. And yes, I went 92 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: to gather Land. Don't judge me, but I everywhere I drove, 93 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: were driving around in the minivan. Oh yes, we drove down. 94 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: We didn't fly. And I was looking around the Orlando area. 95 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: Did you know, Jason Ocean's defense lawyer that the shooter's 96 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: wife nor went with him. According to GPS locator cell 97 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: phones and statements, went with the Pulse shooter, the Orlando 98 00:07:55,440 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: shooter to case out potential murder locations, including Disney Springs, 99 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: including shopping Center, City Place, shopping mall in the middle 100 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: of the night. Don't tell me it was just a 101 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: shopping trip. Jason Oceans because I know that's what you 102 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: are fixing your mouth to say. It was in the 103 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: middle of the night and they took their then three 104 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: year old top boy with them. If my husband dragged 105 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: me out of bed at three am to go to 106 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: drive around miles and miles of driving, oh yeah, they're 107 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: better be an answer, Jason, how can you tell me 108 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: as a defense lawyer, she did not know? And that's 109 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: the tip of the iceberg. Jason, Well, I think you're 110 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: you know, it becomes uh, you know, an evidentiary, circumstantial case, 111 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: everything all pinpointed in and the drive you know, when 112 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: you have a young child and a young baby, as 113 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: I'm told they do, it's not uncommon to drive around 114 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: and try to lower your child to sleep. I don't 115 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: know what they were up to, but it's more the 116 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: prosecution side to prove this. Okay, Just just so to 117 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: stop right there, Jason, whatever I've said about you in 118 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: the past, all those horrible things I would say right 119 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: to your face on court TV and on h L M, Okay, 120 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: I take them all back, because that's a stroke of genius, 121 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: because you know, I had asthma as a child, and 122 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: it runs in our family, and I had a cousin. 123 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: They had to take her out and drive her around 124 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: in the salt air. They moved near the ocean, and 125 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: they would drive her around all during the night with 126 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: the window dawn, breathing in the salt air to help 127 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: her breathe better. Jason, you know what, that's a stroke 128 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: of genius. It's alive, of course, but it is a 129 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: stroke of genius. Please go ahead. I'm I'm mesmerized, like 130 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: watching a snake and a snake charmer. Go ahead, give 131 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: me some more of that defense. That's that's what your 132 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: objective is, Nancy. I mean, when you have certainly the 133 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: public eye and the mass shooting, and you know a 134 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: case against the life, it almost arises, how could she 135 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: not know? But there are many times where your partner 136 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: doesn't know a dual life, married to one and lives 137 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: in another city with another family, and you're deceived because 138 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: you want to be. So that's where it has to arrive. 139 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: All this various circumstantial evidence has to pinpoint. But your 140 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: job is defense counsel, is to pass through each piece 141 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: and discredit it enough to create reasonable doubt that maybe 142 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: perhaps she was duped, uh, just like anyone in their 143 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: family was seemingly that didn't know about it. To Dr 144 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall l a psychoanalyst, Dr Bethany, I have to 145 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: agree with Jason in that, not that I believe anything 146 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: he's saying, in that you take each piece of the 147 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: state's case. It's not just that um they what do 148 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: you say, GPS tracking on a car shows they were 149 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: out their cell phones show she was with him driving 150 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:14,359 Speaker 1: around to all these spots PS, Bethany, the um City 151 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: shopping I'm gonna get the correct name of that city 152 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: place shopping mall. And then the Disney Springs or two 153 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: of the locations they cased the night of the Orlando shooting. 154 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: I mean sixty eight wounded. He first went to Disney Springs. 155 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: He went there, I believe, to a club. He went in, 156 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: he saw a heavy police presence. He just bought a 157 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: T shirt and left one of the places he cased 158 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: with his wife, nor and their three year old talk 159 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: boy with them, which further corroborates the point of the 160 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: drive around the walk about they did that night. But 161 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 1: I want to follow up on something Jason says. There 162 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: have been so many women that I know very well, 163 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 1: and I've done it to you. You want to believe 164 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: what you want to believe in a relationship, luckily not 165 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: with my husband. But you ignore signs that there's something wrong. 166 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: You ignore signs that somebody has an issue or a 167 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: problem that may be intolerable to you because you don't 168 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: want to know about it. You want things to work. 169 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: You want that picture perfect life, that family, that home, 170 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: that whatever, that that's what you want in your head. 171 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 1: And you wrap reality around your dream I mean, Bethany, 172 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: she knew he had been watching the hottest videos for 173 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: two years, Bethany, and you know Nancy not only that, 174 00:12:54,880 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: but according to her own confession, he would repeatedly say 175 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: to her, um, what do you think would upset people 176 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: more if I shot up a group of people at 177 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: Disneyland or at a nightclub? So he was obsessing out 178 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 1: loud to her. Um. Furthermore, in June of that year, 179 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: he ran up a credit card bill of about twenty 180 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: six thousand dollars UM, some of it on AMMOUM guns. 181 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: He only made thirty thousand dollars a year. But to 182 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: speak to your point, I like love when you said 183 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: wrap reality around her dreams because or build her own 184 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: narrative about what was really happening. She may not have 185 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,719 Speaker 1: seen the credit card bill. She may have thought he 186 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: was just having a bad day, Jathany, she was with him. 187 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: That was one of their insurance policy, and that's another issue. 188 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: I'm gonna let Jason. I'm gonna give Jason Ocean's high 189 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: profile defense attorney and the try stay area. Jason, I'll 190 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: let you percolate on this so you can come up 191 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: with an answer. But Dr Bethany Marshal outlined very carefully 192 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: some of their spending. You're right, he made about thirty 193 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: grand a year, but eleven days before the shooting went 194 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 1: on a about a thirty thousand dollar spending spree on 195 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: items she could sell after his death. Over nine thousand 196 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: on jewelry, electrical electric electronics, over two grand on guns 197 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: and AMMO. He took her to the bank with him 198 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: and made her a signatory on there on his accounts, 199 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,359 Speaker 1: so she could have access to him to those accounts 200 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: after his death or capture um. She that night texted 201 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: to him what she would tell his mother if the 202 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: mother called looking for him. She said, I'll just tell 203 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: your mom if she calls that you're out with NEMO. 204 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: There's just so much evidence but I want to get 205 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: back to the Jahattest videos. I mean, Dr Bethany Marshall, 206 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: you're the shrink. If I came home and found David 207 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: watching Jo Hottest videos, his rear in would be in 208 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: the front yard and the locks changed on this house 209 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: before you can say Jo Hottest video. He would be gone, 210 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: not have the hottest videos playing around the twins around 211 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: her child. I mean day one, he had been watching 212 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: for two two years. He's been watching Jah Hottest videos, Bethany. 213 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: But you know, Nancy, I remember reading a prison study 214 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: about women who fell in love with inmates and they 215 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: would regularly visit uh there there boyfriends or lovers in jail, 216 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: and none of the women knew what the men's rap 217 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,479 Speaker 1: sheets were. They refused to put their thoughts together about 218 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: about the men's criminal activity. So to speak to your 219 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: earlier point, she could have been one of these women 220 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: who had all this evidence right in front of her, 221 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: but she rationalized it away, or she built a narrative. 222 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: She might have just thought, well, hey, he's angry, Um, 223 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: maybe he uh is fascinated with a different culture, and 224 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't allow herself to think about it. On the other hand, 225 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: when you say that she went to the bank with him, 226 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: and that a part of those purchases were jewelry. I 227 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: had no idea about that, and that part of that 228 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: was so that she would have something to sell after 229 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: the commission of the crime. That's pretty compelling behavioral evidence 230 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: that she knew what was going on. As a matter 231 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: of fact, that is exactly what her defenses climbing. Listen 232 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: to this. You know, Nora is a very young woman 233 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: at heart. She's very kind, and she thinks well of everybody. Um, 234 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: she's afraid and she's been depressed. She's by herself twenty 235 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: four hours a day. But um. During jury selection, she 236 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: said that she was really looking forward to the jury 237 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: hearing the evidence because she knows that a lot of 238 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: things that have been reported and leaked to the media 239 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 1: have been untrue. And she said, I really can't wait 240 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: for them to hear, for the truth to come out, 241 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: for the trial to start. I really want for the 242 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: jury to hear to hear the evidence. So you know, 243 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: we're in a phase now. We're um, you know, we're 244 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: really respectful of the families and we know that Pulse 245 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 1: night Club massacre was a horrible crime. And the next 246 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: week is going to be really difficult for everybody, and 247 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: we want to respect the families and the victims and 248 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: the friends of the um Pulse victims, but we want 249 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: to remember that a woman is on trial for her 250 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: life here and that she deserves everybody's full attention, and 251 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: that you know, we wanna We're gonna wait for all 252 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: of the evidence to be presented. And what is the 253 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: location of emergency? Okay, what's going on at Pars nightclub? 254 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: I don't know what's sharing police department try to get 255 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: somewhere to the phone. There are strong indications of radicalization 256 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: by this killer and a potential inspiration by foreign terrorist organizations. 257 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: I wonder, just as a dad, do you think you'll 258 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: miss your son? Well? I if he didn't do this 259 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: act horrible acts, probably I would. But right now I 260 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: don't forgive him. This is very I don't know why 261 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: what he did, why he did, but that's unforgiven to her. 262 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,959 Speaker 1: The other one family. We live in unit state as 263 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: a family, and we belong to each other as a neighbor, 264 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: as a friend, as associate worker. And that's how I 265 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: was teaching him to Jason Ocean's High a final defense law. 266 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: You're joining me out of the tri State area where 267 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: he practices for the most part um Jason. They are arguing. 268 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: The defense is arguing that she was abused and she 269 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: was afraid to question him, that she was simple and 270 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 1: easily misguided and manipulated. Whoa she's living with him. She 271 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: sees the Jihades video. She sees him buying tons of 272 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: AMMO and guns. She says, Oh, that's because he's a 273 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: security guard. He never shoots it. He has a shot 274 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: anybody at work. Why does he have to keep replenishing 275 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: m open Just ps before you say, before you step 276 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: on a landline, Jason. She has a degree and medical administration. 277 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: She's not an idiot, Jason. We're not. We're not referring 278 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 1: to anyone's intelligence. We're talking about, you know what, the 279 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 1: religious aspect of their relationship. That's not you know, the 280 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: man and and Shaw dominant. She wasn't on any of 281 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: the accounts until the very end. Okay, never mind, I'll 282 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: give you that one. You could say that she went 283 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: with him, I could say that he took her and 284 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: told her what to do. You know what she sees 285 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: and what she processes relative to her relationship. Clearly he 286 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: was the dominant party. Uh, and and what she what 287 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 1: she took out of that was, you know, hopefully she 288 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: had a partner for life, or you know, was subservient 289 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: and did not process, notwithstanding her intelligence or her job, 290 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: you know, the totality of what was going on, or 291 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: just didn't want to understand it that way, it was 292 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: too much to grieve about or think about that this 293 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: was going to happen. Well, this is what I know 294 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: that night, Alan, do you She texts him and says, Hey, 295 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: if your mom calls, I'm telling your you're out with 296 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: your friend Nemo. And then just before the shooting, he 297 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: writes her, I love you. I love you, Bay. Yeah. 298 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: It's just so clear to me that she did know. 299 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: On the other hand, I don't want her to be 300 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: the scapegoat because her husband murdered forty nine people. But 301 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 1: all of that is irrelevant. What is relevant are the facts, Alan, 302 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: What more do we know? Well, there is a controversy 303 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: in the trial, and that evidence that the government had 304 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,959 Speaker 1: suggested they had didn't quite pan out in a pre 305 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: trial hearing, and that has to do with a twenty 306 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: minute circling of the Pulse nightclub a few days before 307 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: the attack. The FBI had said that during a polygraph 308 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: test that the wife told them that they circled the 309 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: nightclub for twenty minutes and talked about it and discussed it, 310 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: but then that the cell phone UH data, the digital 311 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: GPS data that they've got now to us in court 312 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: shows that could not have happened. So the judge was 313 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: pretty upset about this week, and the family were out 314 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: in the courthouse steps and said she needs to be freed. 315 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: Let's take a listen. That FBI had evidence, that I 316 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: mean hard evidence right, that they had not gone to 317 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 1: Pulst nightclub and had never searched it on the internet. 318 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: When they presented the information from their experts in August, 319 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: they only said that this summary witness was going to 320 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: testify on a PowerPoint presentation of the GPS locations and towers. 321 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: They never knew for sure. They knew what nor said, right, 322 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 1: which was that that was something that was not true, 323 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: that that was something written by the FBI that she 324 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: didn't say that, But they didn't know what the government's 325 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: evidence was. So it came out today that the government 326 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: has known since April of last year that the GPS 327 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: on the phones did not show that they ever went 328 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: to Pulse Nightclub, that Nor never went to Pult Nightclub, 329 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: and that the first time Omar ever went to Pult 330 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: Nightclub was one am on June twelve. Let me understand something, 331 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: Jason otions. So, just because the cell phone data doesn't 332 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: match what she says, why should I believe her? I 333 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: don't believe her. Why isn't the state's problem that she's lying. Well, 334 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: now we're running now, we're running into it. Now we're 335 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: running into you know, poor police tactics at the time 336 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: of interrogation and you know, getting a confessional statement that 337 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: wasn't accurate. I don't know when that time period was 338 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: in the interrogation or you know, I don't have a 339 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: reference point. But you know, you and I both know 340 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 1: that that could be a rough time evidentiary in terms 341 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 1: of what comes in and and what gets excluded. But 342 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: but this is already in now now you're you're just 343 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: you know, having your own defense witness come in and 344 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: matching out those GPS kings and saying, well, they weren't 345 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: even there, So she wasn't even there at at the 346 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: time that in theory she would have said this. Why 347 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: would she say something that actually doesn't point out. For 348 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: all I know, it could have been another night. I 349 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: don't know when it happened. I don't know if what 350 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: she said happened. Really we're getting into I do know 351 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: that's her problem. Maybe that's not the States problem. Maybe 352 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: that's her problem. Maybe the battery ran down on her 353 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: phone and it was off. Maybe she left it at home. 354 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: That happens, well, it works later that night, when she 355 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 1: came up with a cover story to cover her murderous husband. 356 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: I also know statements that she gave according to the 357 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: U S attorneys, quote, I knew on Saturday, when he 358 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: left the house about five pm that this was the 359 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: time that he was going to do something bad. I 360 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: knew this because of the way he left and took 361 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: the gun and backpacked with ammunition. That's according to this 362 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: statement that she signed. Quote. I knew later, when I 363 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: could not get a hold of him, that my fears 364 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: had come true and he did what he said he 365 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: was going to do. I was in denial and I 366 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: could not believe the father of my child was going 367 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 1: to hurt other people. So, if that is true, she 368 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: knew and the two had been According to the state casing, 369 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: Disney Springs and City place in Palm Beach. His statement, 370 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: how upset are people going to be when it gets attacked? 371 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: I mean the thought Dr Bethany of attacking Disneyland. You 372 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: know what I hear in this interrogation is that she's 373 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: beginning to piece together in her own mind a narrative 374 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: of what's been happening in her marriage, and on the 375 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: night of the attack, she appears to be. You know, 376 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: there's eleven hours of questioning, and she changed her story 377 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: three times aimes. And then the detective who was interrogating 378 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 1: her did not tape the the interrogation. He wrote down 379 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: his own notes, and then she initialed in the margins. 380 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: So it's kind of hard to know what happened. But 381 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: what I think happened is she kept changing her story 382 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: because she was perhaps malleable with the detective, beginning to 383 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: think about what really happened, varying levels of consciousness. And 384 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: it could be that she interacted with the interrogator the detective, 385 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: just like she interacted with her husband, always changing her 386 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: levels of consciousness, always like um reevaluating what it was 387 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: she was seeing, going into um states of consciousness and 388 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: then denial. But on some level, I do believe regardless 389 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: of what we're talking about today. That she had animosity 390 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: towards the public just like her husband did. She had 391 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: to have some varying degrees of hatred herself or she 392 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: would not have cluded with him and the way she did, 393 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:11,239 Speaker 1: because he was obsessively murderous like mass shooters are. And 394 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: you cannot stay married to somebody who's obsessively full of 395 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: hatred if you don't have some hatred yourself. Take a listen, terrifying. 396 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: We've been knowing. We know she was innocent. We know 397 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: all this was bunch of lives. We know that. You know, 398 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: Nor is an innocent child. She's not the kind of 399 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: violent people person that they commit that she is. If 400 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: some people asking what his mother, you want to know 401 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: why she's in jail, where do you guys tell him 402 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 1: she would be she would be free. See from day one, 403 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: I always say she's innocent because I know her very well. 404 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 1: I believe in justice system that's she's gonna They're gonna 405 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: find that. I always believe that they're gonna find her 406 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: that's innocent. Four years and a half suffering, So we 407 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: know the justice system gonna take it a bit. But 408 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: the way it's being handled that's wrong. Well, that's all 409 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: well and good. Take a listen to what a Pulse 410 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: nightclub victim tells me at it was horrifying, like not 411 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: knowing if you were going to make it out or 412 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: if anybody was going to make it out, because at 413 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: that point, it was like when I was crawling and 414 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: I noticed the bathroom, it was like, should I go 415 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: into the bathroom? And I thought about, no, I can't 416 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 1: go because there was no exit because I remember going 417 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: in and seeing that there was no way out of 418 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: the bathroom, and I wasn't gonna be trapped, so I 419 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: had to continue out towards the back gate. It was 420 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: like a scary movie. You don't run upstairs when you 421 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: know there's somebody in the house, because you're not going 422 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: to jump from a second story window. And and so 423 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: I know I had to continue going out the back 424 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: and I knew the patio was back there, so I 425 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: was just crawling and crawling on the floor by my 426 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: stomach and my arms until I had reached the cement. 427 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: And when I realized I was outside, I had gotten 428 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: up and I was crouching down zig zagging so that 429 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: I can try to avoid getting shas and you were 430 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: in the nightclub when the massacre occurred. What was the 431 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,479 Speaker 1: first evidence you heard? What was the first thing you 432 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: saw or heard that let you know something horrible was happening. Um, 433 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: when we were in the h in the main room, Uh, 434 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,719 Speaker 1: we heard a gunshot. UM. We really didn't know what 435 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: it was. UM, so we kind of paused, and then 436 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: UM more gunshots went off and it was one after another, 437 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: one after another. We got really scared and we just 438 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: started running for our lives. It was just some people 439 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: were hitting the ground, some people were running. UM. That's 440 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: when we knew, you know that that something was terribly wrong. 441 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: What did you see and what exactly did you hear? UM? 442 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: I was UM, I was with my friends and we 443 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: were having a conversation. About twenty seconds into our conversation, 444 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: we just hear a loud bang. I mean it was 445 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,239 Speaker 1: so loud. Um, I've never heard anything like that in 446 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: my life. UM. And then it was just one after another, 447 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: one after another. UM, and everybody started hitting the ground. 448 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: People were running. I started running. I felt my best 449 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: friend got shot. UM. It was just UM, something that 450 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: was just it was insane. It was crazy. When you 451 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: said your best friend got shot. Were you there when 452 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: your friend was shot. Yeah, I was. I was standing 453 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: right next to him. Once the gunshot started firing, we 454 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: all we all started turning around, UM to one of 455 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: the exit doors to to start running. UM. We both 456 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: have fell down. UM. I fell down because I tripped 457 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: over somebody. UM. And once I was able to get 458 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: out and jump a fence in the patio, UM, I 459 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: looked back and my friend wasn't there. So UM I 460 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: knew he was shot because he faced time me from 461 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: the ground. Joining me is Jason Gonzalez, who survived the shooting. 462 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: What did you see when you were trying to get 463 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: out of there? When you looked around, what could you see? 464 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: I just I just saw fear and everybody everybody was 465 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: just either people just started hitting the ground, Nancy, and 466 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: then some people just started running. UM. Some people started hiding. UM. 467 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: I started running and I fell and then people were 468 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: running over me. UM. I wasn't able to get up 469 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: right away. And then when I was able to, I 470 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: just ran into UH to a doorway that led out 471 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: to the patio. UM. And UM, by the grace of God, 472 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: I was. I was able to jump over that fence. 473 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: When you hear now that the federal government. The U. S. 474 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: Attorney is taking or is planning to take Mateen's wife 475 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: to a federal grand jury. And people are saying, but 476 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: she's cooperating, she was she was afraid of AM. What 477 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: do you say to that? Um? You know, I just 478 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: don't buy that. Um. If she brought him up here 479 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: and she was with him, she had time, she had 480 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: she could have picked up a phone, she could have 481 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: called somebody, She could have told somebody that this guy 482 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: was doing something horribly wrong. Um. Innocent people lost their 483 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: lives and and it's just horrible. It's just horrible. So 484 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: at this juncture, Uh Jason notions she's looking at life 485 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: behind bars if she is convicted. I mean, frankly, if 486 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: she was part of this, she should be looking at 487 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: the death penalty. And you know, the totality of what 488 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: happened is so enormous, and we're so now sensitized, not 489 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,959 Speaker 1: desensitized to terrorism and domestic terrorism and foreign terrorism. So 490 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: you know, there's no general sympathy if you were part 491 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: of collusion in some way. You know, the question goes 492 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: into the psychology prof Isle is Dr Marshall reference, isn't 493 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: you know where where she was at that state. Was 494 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: she just in denial, uh, cognitively knowing it or did 495 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: she ate it in some way? Uh? You know, not 496 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: that she was duped, but did she believe it would 497 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: all happen? And does the evidence point to that? Right now, 498 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: our eyes on a Florida courtroom as this scenario unfolds 499 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: in a federal district courtroom, dead wounded, we want justice. 500 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: Honor student, a varsity cheerleader, the blonde hair down the back, 501 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: the big perfect smile, the scarlet red mermaid dress covered 502 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: in sequence that problems, I mean, the works I'm talking 503 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: about nineteen year old Skyler Richardson. Well, here's the fly 504 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: in the ointment. There's a dead baby buried in the 505 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: back yard. The big headline today is nineteen year old 506 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: Skyler Richardson says she had a stellborn baby. So why 507 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: is she on trial for murder? Because the baby, according 508 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: to sources, was not stillborn? Because according to reports, the 509 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: baby's body was charred and buried by the barbecue pit 510 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: in the backyard. What am I missing something, John Lemley, 511 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter, No, this is, unfortunately the direction 512 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: the story has gone in Brooke. Skylar Richardson really seemed 513 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: to live a charmed life that most teenage girls would envy, 514 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 1: As Scarlett O'Hara would say, you know, pe green with 515 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: envy that they were not. Skylar Richardson, the eighteen year old, 516 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: was a cheerleader who worked during the summer at a 517 00:34:55,120 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: camp for kids with disabilities. She graduated with honors in Carlisle, Ohio. 518 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: She planned to attend the University of Cincinnati to study nursing. 519 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: Other students noticed that Richardson, she was part of the 520 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: high school classes uh senior classes, most popular crowd. Was 521 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: always well put together everything no hair out of place, 522 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 1: makeup just so so, hair perfect. Beneath that exterior, however, 523 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: things were apparently anything but. In May of that year, 524 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: at the prom, a number of people, some for the 525 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: first time, noticed that she was obviously pregnant. And then 526 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: just a week or so later they see Skyler, she's 527 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: not pregnant anymore, but there's no baby. Well, this is 528 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: what else I know, and correct me if I'm wrong 529 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: before I go to ask you Willcott and Karen Stark 530 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: and so my understanding. A grand jury has indicted Skylar 531 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: Richardson for were aggravated murder involuntary manslaughter, gross abuse of 532 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: a corpse, tampering with evidence, and child endangering. The prosecutor, 533 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 1: David Fornshell, says the cheerleader burned and buried her daughter 534 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: in the family's backyard just hours after giving birth. Of 535 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: course she has pled not guilty. Oh footnote, she's not 536 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: in jail. I guarantee you if I killed somebody and 537 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: burned their body and and buried in the backyard, I'd 538 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 1: be under the jail. But not this girl. Uh do 539 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: I have any of those facts wrong? John Lmley, All 540 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: that is correct. And all of this came to light 541 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: after a doctor that Richardson had seen um that he 542 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: called in and said that she may have delivered a 543 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: stillborn baby. And that's when police searched the family's property, 544 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: where they say they found the charred remains of a 545 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: new born girl in Richardson's backyard, then arrested the team. 546 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: They they're not quite sure. They think the baby may 547 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: have died before the uh you know, been stillborn, or 548 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,280 Speaker 1: the baby may have been killed before the remains were 549 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: attemptedly destroyed. My main question is do we have evidence 550 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: the child was alive at birth? I mean, for them 551 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: to charge her with aggravated murder. The child had to 552 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: be alive in order to kill it. They really believe 553 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: because it was a full term baby um and that 554 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: she was you know, full had been gone full term. 555 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,720 Speaker 1: They really see no reason to believe that the baby 556 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: was stillborn. They believed that it was born alive and healthy. Well, 557 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: let's go to Karen Stark, New York Psychologists joining us 558 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: and ask you. Wilcot, juvenile all judge and founder of 559 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: child crime watch dot com. Also with me Crime Stories 560 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: investigative reporter John Limley, Alan Duke out of l A 561 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: and Jackie Howard here in the studio with me, Ashley Wilcott. 562 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: Here's the deal. Abortion is legal. Now. A lot of 563 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: people don't agree with abortion. They think it's a crime. Fine, 564 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: you can think that that's something for you to decide 565 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: when you go to heaven and meet your maker. All right, 566 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: murder is not legal. I have so much to say 567 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 1: about this case, Nancy. Oh my murder is not legal. 568 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: But listen, there is so much more that we don't 569 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: know yet. Number one, I agree with you the fact 570 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: she's been charged with aggravated murder. I suspect there's some 571 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: evidence this child was born alive, but there's a gag order, 572 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: so we don't know that yet. Number two, the mother 573 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,760 Speaker 1: is described as also having this need to be perfect 574 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: and look just so. So I call bs that this 575 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: family did not know, or a mother did not know, 576 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: something was up with her daughter. She had to have 577 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,800 Speaker 1: gained at least a little weight, right, and I'm sure 578 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,319 Speaker 1: she was acting different, hormonal. I do not believe that 579 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: her mother didn't have a clue at some point in 580 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: time something was going on. I would submit this teenager 581 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: ignored her pregnancy. She's into being just so so and 582 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: being a teenager without how a fully developed, rational, good brain, 583 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,720 Speaker 1: and she took it way too far. So I don't 584 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: think that she actually paid attention, and she was in 585 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,720 Speaker 1: denial and all of a sudden, what happens, Uh, eight months, 586 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,359 Speaker 1: nine months, You've got a full baby. So in her 587 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: messed up brain, she decided, oh, I'll just kill it 588 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,280 Speaker 1: and get rid of it. This is a horrible case, 589 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,720 Speaker 1: and I would want to know all that information in court. 590 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,839 Speaker 1: To Karen Start, New York psychologist, I mean, I've said 591 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: this a million times that I don't have stats to 592 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: back it up. When I was prosecuting, I observed around me. 593 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: And so this is anecdotal not statistical that when a 594 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: child was the victim or a baby infant, the case 595 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: seems to be pled down, like you know, you get 596 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,959 Speaker 1: involuntary seven years and we'd all know the person would 597 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: get out in three. Here we've got Brooks, Skyler Richardson 598 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: on house arrest like it's no big deal. It is 599 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 1: a big deal. That's why we're here. We're here to 600 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: defend those that cannot defend themselves, to speak for those 601 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 1: that cannot speak for themselves, like infants, they have just 602 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: as many rights as we do. Because they have no voice, 603 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: they get treated differently, and I think it's wrong. I 604 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: don't think she should be on house arrest. If that 605 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: child was not still born, it could have been adopted, 606 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,279 Speaker 1: it could have been given away, it could have been 607 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: left out a safe haven, anything other than what it got. Karen. 608 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: Why is this case being treated differently? And I think 609 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:07,400 Speaker 1: it's being treated differently because she's a young person and 610 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: they do believe, just as actually was saying that her 611 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: brain was not fully developed. You have to look at 612 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,239 Speaker 1: the fact that the family was clearly complicit in this. 613 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: How could she possibly have been pregnant and given birth 614 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 1: full term. First of all, she gave birth, where was everybody? 615 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: And there was no evidence that she gave birth. The 616 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 1: family was complicit, They knew what was going on, and 617 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: they decided that they were going to cover up this crime. 618 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: It is a crime. You cannot kill a baby, and 619 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 1: she is being treated very loosely because of that whole image. 620 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 1: It's being preserved like as though, well, maybe there was 621 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: a mistake that happened here, and it's very sad and untrusted. 622 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 1: We were talking about brook Skyler Richardson. She was swimming 623 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,839 Speaker 1: with her cousins and her grandmom's pool when her dad 624 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,759 Speaker 1: called and said police wanted to talk to her. She 625 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: goes in, apparently knowing full well what was going on, 626 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: but seemingly the big concern was that the whispers spreading 627 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 1: through their community about had she been pregnant? Okay, why 628 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,840 Speaker 1: are they more concerned Ashley about did she get pregnant 629 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: as opposed to being concerned about the dead baby under 630 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,439 Speaker 1: the barbecue bit. Listen, I don't have any facts about 631 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: this particular family and community to support what I'm about 632 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,240 Speaker 1: to say, but this is based on twenty five years 633 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:46,359 Speaker 1: of experience dealing with families. Here's the issue in some 634 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: of these bedroom communities. It is all about appearances and 635 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: the worst thing in the world, Oh my god, is 636 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: a teenager got pregnant. That's horrible. That can't happen. And 637 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: they live in a bubble that they do not pay 638 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:06,399 Speaker 1: attention to real world issues, and they would hide it, 639 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,839 Speaker 1: they would ignore it, they would not want anyone to know. 640 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,840 Speaker 1: And I would suspect that's this kind of family or community. 641 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 1: This may be the worst thing that's ever happened is 642 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 1: a teen pregnancy, which you know other teens in that 643 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 1: community have been pregnant statistically, I'm sure, but they just 644 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: live in a bubble. That's unrealistic, well legally speaking, if 645 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: a baby is still born. Ashley Willcott, I don't believe 646 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: that there's any grounds for a murder case I would have. 647 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,280 Speaker 1: I would agree you have to have a live person 648 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:43,839 Speaker 1: in order to murder them, so I would agree with you, 649 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: But I would also submit there are a host of 650 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 1: other charges, and the other charges to me, would be 651 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: a sufficient enough basis to have this person in jail. 652 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: I agree completely this family was complicit, and I do 653 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: not believe that house arrest is appropriate, even if the 654 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 1: child was still born and then burned and buried in 655 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: the backyard. This child needs to be in jail, but 656 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:12,400 Speaker 1: they're also need to be potential charges against a family member. 657 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:14,880 Speaker 1: I do not believe she did this on her own. 658 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:22,400 Speaker 1: I still say that, Um, when you have a stillborn child, 659 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 1: the child is born dead, so there is no way 660 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:33,400 Speaker 1: to murder the child. And therefore, if this child have 661 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 1: been born dead, there could not possibly be an aggravated 662 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: murder charge or even an involuntary murder charge on involuntary Ashley, 663 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: she would probably if she was conveyed, did she probably 664 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 1: get sentenced to ten and serve maybe five maybe and 665 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,359 Speaker 1: the mind I agree with that, But listen, I think 666 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,400 Speaker 1: there's got to be other charges. And I don't know 667 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:57,799 Speaker 1: that particular state, but um, what she's done to a corpse, right, 668 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,719 Speaker 1: that's got to be some type of charge. Hiding a 669 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,799 Speaker 1: body lying. I I don't know that she lied to 670 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: the police. Maybe she said, oh, look here's the body, 671 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 1: but from the facts that I've read, that's not the case. Instead, 672 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,400 Speaker 1: they had to search the property. So there are other charges. 673 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: Are they going to be enough to give a lot 674 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 1: of years? No, but I would hope that they charge 675 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,320 Speaker 1: her and anyone else that's complicit with any and every 676 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,680 Speaker 1: crime that's applicable. And I do not agree with prosecuting 677 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 1: women who have steelborn babies, for instance, had a glass 678 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 1: of wine or something that many people consider innocuous behavior. 679 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 1: Now that's a slippery slope, I know that, But I 680 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: don't want pregnant mothers to be vilified and mistreated when 681 00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 1: they have a steelborn child. This is completely different scenario. So, 682 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,600 Speaker 1: John Linley, where does the case stand now? Well, at 683 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 1: the moment of things are sort of in a holding pattern. 684 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 1: And in the meantime, it's interesting to out this Cosmopolitan 685 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: magazine article that has come out. Five thousand words have 686 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 1: been devoted to Richardson's case, mostly from her family's perspective, 687 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,880 Speaker 1: and and some of it honestly is a little bizarre. 688 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,719 Speaker 1: H here's a little bit of what we learned. Um, 689 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,480 Speaker 1: while digging her daughter's grave in the backyard, she grabbed 690 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,719 Speaker 1: a batch of pink sweetheart roses her boyfriend gave her 691 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,640 Speaker 1: for the prom, and according to the article, she covered 692 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,719 Speaker 1: her child's body with the flowers before filling in the 693 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 1: grave with dirt. Um. Some have called her a baby whisper, 694 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 1: which is more than a little ironic. Uh. The article 695 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 1: paints Richardson as a teenager who liked to help others, 696 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:51,840 Speaker 1: especially children. She was known to uh post on social 697 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,880 Speaker 1: media when she was working at the local y m 698 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,839 Speaker 1: c A working with children, Uh, you know, hugging children's 699 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: perks of the job. And we also learned that she 700 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:10,080 Speaker 1: named the baby Annabel was the name that she gave 701 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,640 Speaker 1: to the to the child before before burying it in 702 00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,280 Speaker 1: the backyard. Wow. What does that signify to you, Karen Start, 703 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: you're the shrink. Well, it shows you this massive denial 704 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:26,319 Speaker 1: that was going on inside of her Nancy because she 705 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 1: gave her a name which means she was real, and 706 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:36,840 Speaker 1: yet ostensibly allegedly she murdered her. So she murdered little Annabel, 707 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:41,880 Speaker 1: and she put roses on her grave and then acted 708 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,319 Speaker 1: as though nothing had ever happened. I was able to 709 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,360 Speaker 1: put it in a whole different compartment and go on 710 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 1: with her life. And I think just the stigma of 711 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 1: the pregnancy and how much it would ruin that perfect image. 712 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,680 Speaker 1: The kind of town, the kind of environment that she 713 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:06,719 Speaker 1: was living in, contributed to this denial and repression of 714 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:12,879 Speaker 1: what had happened. It's really horrific. The story is unfolding 715 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: that there's been a gag order put on the case. 716 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 1: We don't know the details. We don't know whether the 717 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:25,120 Speaker 1: medical examiner could do what they determined. For instance, we 718 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,280 Speaker 1: all know that um, when you are trying to find 719 00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,920 Speaker 1: out if the baby was dead or alive at birth, 720 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 1: you during autopsy submerged the lungs in water, and if 721 00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: they have air in them, which will become obvious through 722 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,120 Speaker 1: air bubbles or flotation, you'll know the baby took a breath. 723 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,400 Speaker 1: It's just that simple. There's a gag order in place. 724 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,480 Speaker 1: We don't know the answers to that. If the baby 725 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,920 Speaker 1: was was still born, as it is being argued by 726 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,719 Speaker 1: the defense, there should not be a murder charge. Possibly 727 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:00,960 Speaker 1: tampering with a body are abuse of a courtse but 728 00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:03,759 Speaker 1: not a murder and that's the end of that. But 729 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:08,040 Speaker 1: if there was air in the baby's lungs, that's an 730 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:13,160 Speaker 1: entirely different matter. And I believe that this infant, if 731 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:18,640 Speaker 1: born alive, has rights the right to live, just like 732 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 1: you and I. Again, we're not talking about abortion. Abortion 733 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:28,760 Speaker 1: is legal in our country. Murder is not. Nancy Gray's 734 00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,680 Speaker 1: crime story, signing off Goodbye friend,