Speaker 1: Can you make a podcast while working from home? Sure?
Speaker 1: Of course? Can you protect the environment? Well, we're about
Speaker 1: to find out. Today on Parts Pavilion, we asked the
Speaker 1: question can EPA employees do their work when they can't
Speaker 1: go to work? Hello, and welcome to what I think
Speaker 1: will be a very interesting episode of Parts per Billion.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, David Schultz, and like probably many, if
Speaker 1: not most, of you, I am working from home. It
Speaker 1: goes without saying, but the coronavirus outbreak is changing daily
Speaker 1: life for seemingly every American, and that includes the Americans
Speaker 1: who work at the EPA. As of the recording of
Speaker 1: this podcast on the afternoon of March seventeenth, the federal
Speaker 1: government is still open and functioning. But today we're asking
Speaker 1: how exactly is it functioning? And with us today to
Speaker 1: break this down is Stephen Lee. He covers the EPA
Speaker 1: workforce and other environmental issues for Bloomberg Law. So, Stephen,
Speaker 1: what exactly is the EPA doing to protect its employees
Speaker 1: from the virus and to prevent them from inadvertently spreading it?
Speaker 1: I know telework has been one of the big things
Speaker 1: that a lot of work, you know, office places have done.
Speaker 1: What's going on at the EPA with this. Well, yesterday,
Speaker 1: the EPA told its employees across the nation that they
Speaker 1: are free to telecommute and take unscheduled leave. That's consistent
Speaker 1: with guidance that came out from the White House Office
Speaker 1: of Management and Budget on Sunday. EPA says they're staying
Speaker 1: in close contact with you know, regional leaders and employees
Speaker 1: across the country with information that is specific to their regions.
Speaker 1: And they also say that they don't have any confirmed
Speaker 1: cases of employees or infected with coronavirus, at at least
Speaker 1: at their headquarters. Yeah, they're still open, and they say
Speaker 1: they're still working to protect human health and the environment.
Speaker 1: Right now, it's not clear how field enforcement is being
Speaker 1: affected or whether it's being affected. But again EPA says
Speaker 1: they're still on the job and they're they're still out
Speaker 1: there and we should we should say field enforcement are
Speaker 1: when the EPA employees go to factories or other locations
Speaker 1: that are emitting pollution and make sure they're not emitting
Speaker 1: too much pollution. So you're saying that is unclear if
Speaker 1: it's still continuing right, Well, again, APA has said that
Speaker 1: you know, there has not been a change in uh
Speaker 1: an enforcement or in inspections. But you know, of course,
Speaker 1: we're only a couple of days into this self quarantine,
Speaker 1: so we'll we'll keep an eye on and see how
Speaker 1: that develops. Yeah, it's interesting that the e PA is
Speaker 1: now encouraging tellwork, and it's interesting because the agency has
Speaker 1: resisted giving its employees more telework options in the past.
Speaker 1: Uh they've been negotiating with AFGE, which is the main
Speaker 1: union that has represents a majority of EPA employees, and
Speaker 1: the EPA has been very resistant to expanding telework options
Speaker 1: in those negotiations. Why were they resistant before and do
Speaker 1: you think that'll change? The EPA says that they see
Speaker 1: a real value in people being in the office more.
Speaker 1: They want veteran workers to spend more time in the
Speaker 1: office to help mentor younger employees, especially while the agency
Speaker 1: is losing so many veteran workers due to retirements. And
Speaker 1: they also say they haven't eliminated telework, they've just reduced
Speaker 1: it basically from two days per week to one with
Speaker 1: some exceptions. Will it change things? I mean, you wouldn't
Speaker 1: think so, based on how much the EPA under this
Speaker 1: administration seems to want people to be in the Office.
Speaker 1: EPA employees have long been able to work from home
Speaker 1: two days per week, and they say that it's been
Speaker 1: working well and it was very good for productivity. And
Speaker 1: this administration went in and actively reduced the work at
Speaker 1: home provisions in the most recent labor contract that's up
Speaker 1: for negotiation, and the PA has said that they are
Speaker 1: willing to talk about that, but nevertheless, you know, the
Speaker 1: fact that they changed those work from home provisions is
Speaker 1: a strong indication I think of how how how much
Speaker 1: the Trump EPA values people being at their desks in
Speaker 1: the office. Are there specific environmental reasons why they you know,
Speaker 1: the EPA under this administration wants people to be working
Speaker 1: at their desks. Like, are there things that the EPA
Speaker 1: does that are unique to environmental protection that require someone
Speaker 1: to be at the office or is this just a
Speaker 1: government wide philosophy in this administration that telework should be
Speaker 1: discouraged and people should be coming to the office. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have heard that at other agencies, you know, they're
Speaker 1: seeing the same thing. Telework is being restricted or limited.
Speaker 1: You know. As far as whether the EPA's mandate or
Speaker 1: mission has changed since you know, previously, I don't know
Speaker 1: that that's the case. I I really do think this
Speaker 1: is just a shift in philosophy. Ye, well that was,
Speaker 1: of course before the coronavirus outbreak. We'll see how those
Speaker 1: negotiations change moving forward. I can't imagine any way that
Speaker 1: the tenor doesn't change, but it'll be interesting to see.
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break right now, but
Speaker 1: when we come back, we're going to talk about other
Speaker 1: ways that the Trump administration has changed the way that
Speaker 1: the EPA operates and changed the way that EPA employees
Speaker 1: do their jobs. Stay with us, and we're back and
Speaker 1: we're talking with Bloomberg Laws Stephen Lee, who covers the
Speaker 1: environment about EPA employees and how they are working or
Speaker 1: are not working, I guess during the coronavirus outbreak. But
Speaker 1: I want to get into something a little bit broader.
Speaker 1: You know, the Trump administration has really made a lot
Speaker 1: of changes at the EPA for EPA employees. And one
Speaker 1: of the things they've done is they've brought in this
Speaker 1: concept called lean management. And so before we get into
Speaker 1: how it's working at the EPA, what exactly is lean
Speaker 1: management and where did it come from. Lean management is
Speaker 1: a production method that dates back I think to the
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties. Toyota developed it way back when, and it's
Speaker 1: really about cutting out waste and focusing on the steps
Speaker 1: in a job that bring the most value. So let's
Speaker 1: find out where the choke points are, let's see what
Speaker 1: we can do to eliminate them. You know, let's make
Speaker 1: sure we are spending as much time and energy as
Speaker 1: possible on the steps that bring value to the customer.
Speaker 1: That sounds obvious and maybe kind of self evident when
Speaker 1: I describe it like that, but there actually is a
Speaker 1: whole methodology behind it, and it does work, been proven
Speaker 1: in many industries over the years, and EPA has been
Speaker 1: doing it for years as well. So the EPA has
Speaker 1: been doing it for a while. But it sounds like
Speaker 1: the Trump administration is really ramping up and wanting to
Speaker 1: bring the sort of private sector management style into the
Speaker 1: public sector, especially the EPA. Is that right, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: What EPA has done under the leadership of Henry Darwin,
Speaker 1: who's very high ranking I think is the assistant Deputy Administrator,
Speaker 1: is put their own spin on lean management, and basically
Speaker 1: that consists of, you know, using visual boards mounted on
Speaker 1: walls so everyone can track their team's progress on a
Speaker 1: daily basis, holding weekly meetings to make sure everyone's on
Speaker 1: the same page. They've put their own kind of twist
Speaker 1: on lean management that's been done for a while. And
Speaker 1: how is it working out? I mean, there are things
Speaker 1: getting more efficient, you know, or is the EPA operating
Speaker 1: better or are there some things that just sort of
Speaker 1: don't translate to this lean management philosophy at the EPA. Well,
Speaker 1: the EPA says it's working well, and they do have
Speaker 1: a lot of evidence to support that. One example that
Speaker 1: I like is that, you know, they had thirteen thousand
Speaker 1: dead links on their website and so you click something
Speaker 1: doesn't go anywhere. They wanted to fix that. They applied
Speaker 1: lean management and you know, their own spin on lian management,
Speaker 1: and now that number is down to less than two
Speaker 1: thousand dead links in a pretty short amount of time.
Speaker 1: They've also dramatically cut down the amount of time that's
Speaker 1: required to get certain kinds of permits and certain kinds
Speaker 1: of grants. But what a lot of EPA employees say
Speaker 1: is that lean management doesn't work for a white collar,
Speaker 1: bureaucratic type of job. You know. They say it might
Speaker 1: work on a production line if you're making bicycles where
Speaker 1: there's you know, certain steps that have to be followed,
Speaker 1: and there are real choke points that have a direct
Speaker 1: effect on productivity. If a bolt isn't getting to the
Speaker 1: right place at just the right time, that can slow
Speaker 1: down production. You know, maybe just a little bit, but
Speaker 1: if you've got hundreds of little snags like that, it
Speaker 1: all adds up and it can cost a company a
Speaker 1: lot of money. That's in a production environment. In a
Speaker 1: government office, if your job is to you know, let's say,
Speaker 1: analyze legal arguments or policy issues, it's just not the
Speaker 1: same kind of environment. And that's why some EPA staffers
Speaker 1: say lean management just is not a good fit for
Speaker 1: the kind of work that they do. Darwin has said
Speaker 1: that if that is happening, that's because maybe someone has
Speaker 1: chosen the wrong goal or maybe they've misapplied the principles
Speaker 1: of lean management. And it's also worth saying that there
Speaker 1: are EPA employees who say it has worked. That's just
Speaker 1: not what I hear from most of the rank and file.
Speaker 1: So overall, though, what do you think, right, I guess
Speaker 1: what have you been able to gather from all the
Speaker 1: conversations that you've had. Do you think that it is
Speaker 1: working in the EPA employees who don't like it are
Speaker 1: just sort of you know, bureaucrats who are you know,
Speaker 1: resistant to change or do you think that the people
Speaker 1: who criticize it within the EPA have a point that
Speaker 1: this is not something that makes sense in a white
Speaker 1: collar environment, and especially not in a government public sector
Speaker 1: environment where there may be other values aside from you know,
Speaker 1: producing as many widgets as you can and making as
Speaker 1: much profit as you possibly can. Well, Henry Darwin has
Speaker 1: said that he knows change is hard. There are people who,
Speaker 1: you know, just aren't open to new ways of doing things.
Speaker 1: So you're going to get that in any large organization,
Speaker 1: particularly with people who maybe have been there a very
Speaker 1: long time and they're used to doing things a certain way.
Speaker 1: When I spoke with him, he compared, you know, working
Speaker 1: at an agency or any organization to playing on a
Speaker 1: basketball team. You know, you want to be playing on
Speaker 1: a good team. When things are clicking and the team
Speaker 1: is winning, then that boosts everyone's morale. It makes everyone
Speaker 1: not only happier but also better at their jobs, and
Speaker 1: it's just good for everyone. But again, you've got a
Speaker 1: lot of EPA employees who say that lean management is
Speaker 1: just flat out a waste of time. People say, they
Speaker 1: roll their eyes at it. And I had one person
Speaker 1: tell me his team doesn't even do the required you know,
Speaker 1: weekly meetings anymore. They kind of play lip service to it,
Speaker 1: but they essentially ignore the whole thing and just kind
Speaker 1: of go through the motions. And you know, the one
Speaker 1: big thing that a lot of EPA staff say is
Speaker 1: that even if lean management does work, even if it
Speaker 1: does improve productivity and cut out waste in certain areas,
Speaker 1: they don't think it's aimed at doing the one thing
Speaker 1: that the agency is supposed to do, which is protect
Speaker 1: the environment and protect human health. So if people don't
Speaker 1: feel like they're fulfilling the agency's mission and that's the
Speaker 1: whole reason they went to work for EPA in the
Speaker 1: first place, then it seems to me that maybe that's
Speaker 1: not great for morale. Yeah. Well, and that along with
Speaker 1: having to work from home for an indefinite period of
Speaker 1: time when your you know, managers are sort of skeptical
Speaker 1: of working from home, is probably also not helping morale
Speaker 1: at the EPA either, I would imagine. I think that's right.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's something that we're all going through. You know,
Speaker 1: we'll we'll yeah, we will see how it plays out.
Speaker 1: All right. Well, that'll do it for today's episode of
Speaker 1: Parts Provillion. Steven and our other reporters are definitely still
Speaker 1: on the beat, so check out their great work at
Speaker 1: our website, Newstop Bloomberg Environment dot com. That website, once
Speaker 1: again is newstot Bloomberg Environment dot com. Today's episode of
Speaker 1: Parts Pavilion was produced by myself along with Josh Block
Speaker 1: and Marissa Horn. Parts Pavilion was created by Jessica Coombs
Speaker 1: and Rachel Dagel. The music for today's episode is a
Speaker 1: message by just Are and Upstate by Henning Schmidt's. They
Speaker 1: were used under a Creative Comments license. Thanks for listening
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