1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. The Vikings, those mythic 2 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: larger than life Scandinavians who left their homeland in search 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: of opportunity and would reshape Europe and the United States. 4 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: In his new book The Viking Heart, How Scandinavians Conquered 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: the World, Arthur Herman tells a compelling historical narrative with 6 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: cutting edge archaeological discoveries and DNA research to trace the 7 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: epic story of this remarkable and truly diverse people. And 8 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: he shows how the Scandinavian experience has universal meaning and 9 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: how we can still be inspired by their spirit and 10 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: strength of community today. So I'm really pleased to welcome 11 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: my guest, Arthur Herman. He is a senior fellow at 12 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: the Husband Institute, an author of nine books, including the 13 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller How the Scots Invented the Model 14 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: World in Gandhi and Churchill, a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize. Arthur, 15 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me to talk about The Viking Heart, 16 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: How Scandinavians Conquered the World. Now, to be fair, you 17 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: are Norwegian descent on both sides of your family tree, 18 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: aren't you. The rules of full Disclosure insist that I 19 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: do fess up to that. I mean, on my father's 20 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: side there's also German as well as Norwegian. It's my 21 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: great great grandfather who emigrated from Norway to the United 22 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: States in the eighteen fifties, and then my mother's parents 23 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: came over from Norway. But the book, as you know, 24 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: is not just about Norwegians. It's also about Swedes and 25 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: about Danes, about Fins and the Icelanders as well as 26 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: the Viking. So what I wanted to do was to 27 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: give equal time new to all the different Scandinavian ethnic groups, 28 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: so that everyone would recognize the qualities of diversity and 29 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: inclusion in a discussion about the Vikings and their descendants. 30 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: I should tell you, by the way, that my wife Calissa, 31 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: went to Luther College in Decora, Ohiowa, which is a 32 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: Norwegian related college. In fact, her band went and played 33 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,839 Speaker 1: in Norway when she was in college, and the Norwegian 34 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 1: Museum is in Decorah, so she has great ties, although 35 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: she personally is Polish and Swiss, so she has no 36 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: direct immediate tie to the Scandinavians. But you know, when 37 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: you talk about it and you weave them all together, 38 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: they become a fascinating cultural pattern. And I'm curious what 39 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: inspired you not just to write about Norway, but to 40 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: write about the concept of the Viking heart. Well, I'll 41 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: tell you it was a conversation I had with my 42 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: uncle Norman. After How the Scots and Dinner the Modern 43 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: World came out and became a New York Times bestseller, 44 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: I was best seller in the British Isles as well. 45 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: By the way, it's the twentieth anniversary for the publication 46 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: of the How the Scots book, So this is timely 47 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: to have the Viking heart that he said to me, 48 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: So you're write about the Scots, now what about the Vikings? 49 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: And I mowed that over and I thought about, how 50 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: would I do a book about the Vikings, and not 51 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: just the Vikings as a part of medieval history and 52 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: European history, but maybe the role that their descendants came 53 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: to play in shaping America and the cultural skill set, 54 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: which is really what the books about, the cultural skill 55 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: set that they brought over with them from their Scandinavian 56 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: homeland and had such an impact in shaping not just 57 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: the Midwest in the areas that they settled in America, 58 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: but also American culture from a late nineteenth century onto 59 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: the peasant, and so twenty years later this is the result. 60 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: My uncle Norman isn't with us anymore, but I'm hoping 61 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: that he will still be pleased with the result. You 62 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: talk about the Viking heart, but as I understand it, 63 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: they actually never called themselves vikings. You know, they didn't. 64 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: Viking is like a verb. It describes the decision to 65 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: set out on an expedition, usually an expedition of gathering 66 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: loot from those not strong enough to defend their own possessions. 67 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: The word itself comes from the Old Norse word vic, 68 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: which means a creek or a river. And what it 69 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: really reflects, I think as a part of the Scaninavian experience, 70 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: is the fact that these were peoples in this harsh, 71 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: inhospitable part of the world, Scaninavia, who learned very early 72 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: on how to make water their friend, the river courses, lakes, 73 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: the seas, and of course eventually the Atlantic Ocean. So 74 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: the famous English prayer, which was supposedly said for eight 75 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: hundred years after the last Raid, actually ends up protect 76 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: us from the Norsemen, not protect us from the Vikings. 77 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: That's right, the Vikings, And I suppose at that point, 78 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: many Norsemen would say, hey, that's only a part time activity. 79 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: We do other stuff too, you know. And of course 80 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: that's also part of the point of my book and 81 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: here the TV series I'm afraid to give us a 82 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: slightly distorted picture about what the Viking Age was like 83 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: and what the Scandinavian tribes who watched themselves out across 84 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: Europe and into Eastern Europe and even into the Mediterranean 85 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: were really like. They weren't really the kind of super warriors. 86 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: They weren't the invincible marauders that we sometimes realized. They 87 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: were farmers first, arable land being a very scarce commodity 88 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: in Scandinavia. They were fishermen, they were animal herdsman. What 89 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: do you think of his going Viking? The Viking expeditions 90 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: were ways in which the peoples from this underpopulated area 91 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: and poor resourced area were able to get the commodities 92 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: and the goods that they needed to make their lives 93 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: more livable and more bearable. And what they discovered was, 94 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: as I explained the book, is it after the death 95 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: of Charloagne in eight fourteen, the frontiers of the year 96 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: event were permeable and just as you know, at our 97 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: own age. When frontiers and borders become permeable, others will 98 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: take advantage of it. And that's exactly what the Vikings 99 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: did for two hundred years. Correct me if I'm wrong. 100 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: If you look at a map, they both come around 101 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: to the west into the Mediterranean, past Gibraltar and end 102 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: up in Constantinople. And they come around from the east 103 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: and come down the river system through Russia and end 104 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: up in Constantinople. I mean, for a bunch of farmers, 105 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,119 Speaker 1: their reach is astonishing. It is amazing, isn't it. And 106 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 1: you have to realize that these are for those who 107 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: are engaged in these expeditions. These are in many ventures 108 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: totally into the unknown. Now they simply trust their nautical skill, 109 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: trust their boatload of friends and family that are going 110 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: with them, and they set out to see what can 111 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: be found, if not loot, then the possibility of trade 112 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: and then ultimately land for settlements. Body march the division 113 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: of labor runs like this. What happens is the Norwegians 114 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: and the Danes tend to swing west using the North Sea, 115 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: expand out to the British Isles and then of course 116 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: eventually across the Atlantic. But also down along the coast 117 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: of Grants and Spain and into the Mediterranean. The Swedes 118 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: are the ones who really target the Baltic region and 119 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: then use the river networks in Eastern Europe and Russia 120 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: to get down to the Black Sea and then opening 121 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: up the markets and the routes for trade with the 122 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: more advanced civilizations of the Zantium and then of Islam. 123 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: In fact, Islam I don't think would have been able 124 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: to really sustain its golden age if the Vikings weren't 125 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: there supplying the thing that the Muslim rulers and the 126 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: caliphs most needed, which was human labor through the slave trade. 127 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: And that's most of it is. The Vikings are bringing 128 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,559 Speaker 1: them slaves, right, The Vikings aren't becoming slaves now, although, 129 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: of course, in the case of the Byzantine emperors, Viking 130 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: mercenaries will become their most trusted bodyguards, the Varangian guard 131 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: as it's called, and they will be ones that will 132 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: be entrusted with the physical security and political stability for 133 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: Byzantine emperors when they feel that their throne is to 134 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: be saved on shaky ground and threats come from inside 135 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: as well as outside their empire. But yes, it's a 136 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:49,719 Speaker 1: story two hundred years of almost incredible rapid expansion, all 137 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: being possible by the nautical technology that they have, the 138 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: long ships, and then also their amazing ability to conduct 139 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 1: what we would call today speditionary warfare, landing where they're 140 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: at least expected taking on enemies and running and grabbing 141 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: what they need or doing business that they need, and 142 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: then disappearing before the authorities can get organized to try 143 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,319 Speaker 1: and defend their territory. You know, I notice you talk 144 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: about the Norwegians and Danes going west, the Swedes going 145 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: east to southeast. Well what about the Fins. You'd mentioned 146 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: the Finns earlier, which frankly, given their linguistic background, surprised me. 147 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have thought of them as part of the 148 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: Viking heart. I think they are actually new because what 149 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: we come to realize is is that a lot of 150 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: these Viking expeditions you set off with who you can 151 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: find who was willing to go and set out on 152 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: these expeditions. So it wasn't unusual for Viking expeditions by 153 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: the Danes and Norwegians to pick up British adventurers. Scots. 154 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: We now went for the first voyage across the Atlantic 155 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: to the North America, and for the Swedes being in 156 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: close proximity to the Fins. Although they are ethnically and 157 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: also linguistically distinct, the two countries have a very very 158 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: close relationship all the way through to the modern era. 159 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: So it's not surprising that when you have a boatload 160 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: of Swedish adventures setting out down the deeper or founding Kiev, 161 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: which was a key Viking capital as a matter of 162 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: fact in the ninth and tenth centuries, it's not surprising 163 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: that you would find Fins accompanying them, and Fins being 164 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: part of the marauding party, part of the trading network 165 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: that they're going to set up. And of course Finland 166 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: also too had a lot of resources forestry, the kinds 167 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: of animal skins that were important commodities for trading for 168 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: these Nordic adventurers as well. Did you just get a 169 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: similar relationship with Estoni, Alatia Lithuania? Are they really oriented 170 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: in a totally different way? The relationships tends to be 171 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: a lot more hostile over the course of the centuries, really, 172 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 1: and there you find that it's more conflict and conquest, 173 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: especially in the later year the post Viking Age, when 174 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: the kingdoms that emerge from the Viking Age in Scandinavia, 175 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: both Denmark and also Sweden, do their best to carve 176 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: out their own empires along the Baltic coast and are 177 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: in conflict with Estonians and Latvians, but also the Poles, 178 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: of course, and then eventually the Russians. In your model, 179 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: the real age of Viking dominance is one eight hundred 180 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: and two about one thousand untill about a thousand. I 181 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: think historians usually mark the end of the Viking Age 182 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: with ten sixty six ten sixty six, when two decisive 183 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: battles take place in England, the first in the north, 184 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: which is the Battle of Stamford Bridge, the other the 185 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: Battle of Hastings in the south of England. I described 186 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: them both in The Viking Heart and How They Arose. 187 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: The Battle of Hastings, of course, is the more famous one, 188 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: because William the conqueror Annoyan, a descendant of the Vikings, 189 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: uses the battle to take the throne of England to 190 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: defeat King Harold and the Anglo Saxons. But harold score 191 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: is almost as significant and important of victory over the 192 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: last great Viking king, who was also named Harold Harold 193 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: of Norway at the Battle of Stamford Bridge. And the 194 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: Battle of Stamford Bridge really brings an end to the 195 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: heyday of the Viking kings, of Viking chieftains. And I 196 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: think we can really say from that point on the 197 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: story of the Scandinavia becomes part of the rest of Europe, 198 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: as opposed to separate from our outliers, from the mainstream 199 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: of Western and European civilization. But of course, the other 200 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: big change that comes, as I've described it in the book, 201 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: the other big change that marks an end of the 202 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: Viking Age is the coming of Christianity. That is a 203 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: watershed event for the evolution of Scandinavia, for the evolution 204 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: of what I call the Viking heart, as well as 205 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: the pagan past fades into the realm of myth and 206 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: epic poems. But Christianity, with its new set of values, 207 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: respect for the individual, compassion for others, the Golden Rule 208 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: now become part of the Scandinavian culture and ultimately part 209 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: of the Scandinavian character in the high point of Viking activity. 210 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: Part of the reason you get Normandy is that, if 211 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: I understand it correctly, the French king decides it's cheaper 212 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: to basically leash Normandy to Viking if he will then 213 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: protect the Sand River and block the Vikings from going 214 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: up to continuously sack Paris. You've got it exactly right. 215 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: The French king decided, if you can't beat him, buy 216 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: him off, and that's exactly what he did with the 217 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: Viking chieftain Rolfe. In France Norman history is known as Rollo, 218 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: but his real Norse name was Rolfe, and rolf and 219 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: his warriors are bought off by getting a granted territory 220 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: north of France, which becomes known as the Land of 221 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: the Northman they or Normand, And so the rise of 222 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: the Normans, including those Norman knights, arise from Viking warriors 223 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: who settled down, acquired land, and became a power in 224 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: themselves in France, and then become a power in Chrystendel 225 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: and become the great conquerors and pushing back the Saracen 226 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: and Muslim occupiers in southern Italy and Sicily. So to 227 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: show that I truly am a creature of popular culture, 228 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: is Rollo really the younger brother of Ragnar Lothbrook? Or 229 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: is out all just a function of meaning to fit 230 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: into a fictional tale. I think it's probably safe to 231 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: say he's not. Historically, probably was someone named Lagnar. He 232 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: may have had the name Harry Bridges, which is what 233 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: Ladbrook means. But he becomes a sort of a figure 234 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: around which a whole series of extraordinary adventures and accomplishments 235 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: and conquests swirl, and he becomes sort of an anecdote 236 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: magnet in the Viking sagas and later on in the 237 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: histories that the Icelandic poets put together, particularly history of 238 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: Danish kings and so on. I think he's at best 239 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: a semi mythical figure. But the character Wolf was real. 240 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: Although there was no written treaty, we know that the 241 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: deal was struck in nine to eleven to give him 242 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: and his warriors that Swath the territory in northern France. 243 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: And over time the Normans become a power onto themselves, 244 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: not only conquering England but also expanding down into Italy 245 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: and beyond. They bring the macho side of the Viking heart, 246 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: they bring it into the four of Western civilization. Somehow, 247 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: the Normans go from being these light shipborn raiders who 248 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: almost always operate on foot to developing in a sense 249 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: the earliest and most powerful of the horse born knights, 250 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: who become almost unstoppable as long as they're on open land. 251 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: You've got it exactly correct. The Normans become the armed 252 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: horseman par salons of the early Middle Ages. Then how 253 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: does that happen? Though? I mean, that's an enormous shift 254 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: in culture and in structure and in the economy. It's 255 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: very typical of the Vikings, actually, because if you look 256 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 1: at the history of the Viking raiders even before they 257 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: occupied Normandy, which the things you come to realize is 258 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: is that they're extremely adaptable to the battlefield conditions under 259 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: which they have to fight. And one of the big 260 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: shocks that came to the defenders of Charlemagne's empire when 261 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: the Danes in Norwegians started their forays into their territory 262 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: was how skilled the Vikings really were as horsemen, as 263 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: mounted warriors, just as they were shocked to discover that 264 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: these sea going long ships worked just as well going 265 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: up river and taking advantage of river networks wherever they 266 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 1: were provided, and if the rivers weren't navigable, they would 267 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: lift them up carry them across to where they could 268 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: be used. The most extraordinary example that I mentioned the 269 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: book of this kind of adaptability and versatility is when Rurik, 270 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: who is the Swedish conqueror who really establishes the principality 271 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: of Novgorod and then kid and then eventually the Kingdom 272 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: of Russian, when his successor watches an expedition against Constantinople 273 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: at the very beginning of the tenth century. They arrive, 274 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: of course by long ship. They find that they can't 275 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: get the Byzantines from the seaward side. The defenses are 276 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: too strong. So what does he do. He has his 277 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: men reached their long ships, attached wheels to the long ships, 278 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: and then use their sales for propulsion in order to 279 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: attack the Byzantine capital from the landward side. As far 280 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: as I know, it's the first development of land tanks 281 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: in the history of warfare. But think about someone that 282 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: creative who sort of says, Okay, we can't use our 283 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 1: ships in the normal way, We'll use it in an 284 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: extraordinary way by turning them into platforms for land warfare. 285 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 1: And of course you being in a sense fortified from 286 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: attack because you're really using this as a form of Atlanta. 287 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: This is one of the things that's so extraordinary about 288 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: the Vikings is their immense adaptability, their ability to shift 289 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: not just on a tactical but also in strategic level 290 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: and ultimately defined ways to fit into the dominant culture, 291 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: which is what the Normans finally did. They shed their 292 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: nautical skills, the culture that had brought them there from 293 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: their original homeland in Norway, but they become the masters 294 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: of the techniques and technologies of the dominant culture and 295 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: arise to become really a kind of ruling class for 296 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages. When you think about it, I'm curious, 297 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: is there a population explosion underway? Was the weather such 298 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: that you suddenly have large numbers of surplus young males 299 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: in this two hundred year period. You know what, if 300 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: you look at the history of immigration generally, not just 301 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: the United States, but demographically around the world, surplus populations 302 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: always pose a problem. How do you feed those mouths? 303 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: And what we conjecture is and the archeological evidence is 304 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: there that there was probably a period of warming at 305 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: the very beginning of the Viking Age the populations grew. 306 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 1: Don't forget too, the Vikings are polygamous. The head of 307 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: the household. As multiple wives producing multiple children, resources are scarce, 308 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: the population is growing. What are you going to do 309 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: with all those younger sons and younger daughters. Well, one 310 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: of the things that you do is you set them 311 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: off to see to go find new lives for themselves 312 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: or to bring back the goods that will make the 313 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: community prosperous and allow it to survive in the kind 314 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: of harsh climate that it faces in wintertime and beyond. So, yeah, 315 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 1: the population pressure certainly played a role in pushing the 316 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: Vikings out to go look for new lands and to 317 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 1: look for new opportunity. We have to realize too, there 318 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: were enormous risks involved, and it's probably a pretty good 319 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: estimate that for every three Viking longships that set out 320 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: going viking every spring, probably only two came back. The 321 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: reason I ask him part is the Mongols have a 322 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 1: similar experience, and that there's a period of rain in 323 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: the Gobi and you suddenly have this explosion both of 324 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: horses and of young men. And it's the base of 325 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: Temision's ability to become Genghis Khan because he now has 326 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: an army that has to go somewhere, and it's a 327 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: sort of a very similar kind of if you will, 328 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: up rooting by demographic necessity, that has a huge, huge impact. 329 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: That's a great comparison. And the same thing happens with 330 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: the Turks as well, and the parallels between Viking history 331 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: and Turkish history are quite extraordinary. The big difference, of course, 332 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: new it is the dispersion for the Mongols and the 333 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: Turks is on land, whereas the avenues for dispersion for 334 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: the Vikings and for Scandinavians is by sea. Yes, and 335 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: if they had not been able to adapt to that, 336 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: they would have been trapped and probably had starvation. I 337 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: have a very good friend who is currently studying Old Norse. 338 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: We were chatting and she said that if you look 339 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: at the DNA in Iceland, which of course said this 340 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: huge project, something like sixty of the women in Iceland 341 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: actually have Irish background. And her presumption is that the 342 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,719 Speaker 1: Vikings were raiding into Ireland, grabbing the women and taking 343 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: them to Iceland. Yeah, grabbing or inviting them to go along. 344 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: We don't really know to what you mean. This was corcient. 345 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: We know that the Vikings, especially the Norwegians, had all 346 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: kinds of settlements along the coast of Ireland. That DNA 347 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: evidence again suggests that we've got this wholesale sort of 348 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: ethnic mixing, let's take in place thanks to these Viking expeditions. 349 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: Here we talked about earlier about the Finns right becoming 350 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: integrated into the Swedish expeditions. At the same time, you've 351 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: got the Irish and Scots who become integrated and become 352 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: part of Viking expeditions heading west to Iceland and then 353 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: Greenland and then eventually North America. And we also have 354 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 1: two the Vikings themselves settling in the British Isles, especially 355 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: in northern England, where in effect, because I point out 356 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: in the book at one point something close to two 357 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: thirds that the Kingdom of England is Danish territory, with 358 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: its own laws, its own language, and its own population, 359 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: who are hard to trace DNA wise newt because the 360 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: DNA between Anglo Saxon and Norwegian Scandinavian is so close, 361 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: because of course the Angles and Saxons originally came over 362 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: from Scandinavia, that it's really tough to draw the line 363 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: about who is really a descendative Vikings des of an 364 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: Anglo Saxon conquers from four hundred years earlier. You know, 365 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: it's really an interesting rewrite of English history to think 366 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: about the notion that this island, which since ten sixty 367 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: six has prided itself on not being invaded, in fact, 368 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: for the previous thousand years, just had wave after wave 369 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: after wave of people. It is an extraordinary thing. And 370 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: of course, even after ten sixty six, the threat of 371 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: invasion continues to haunt the British Isles from that point on, 372 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: from the Spanish to the Germans. It's an easy pickings 373 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: for an invader, and until the English were strong enough 374 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: to be able to defend themselves, they were going to 375 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: find themselves to be the prey for whoever it is 376 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 1: could find a safe landing on the coast and then 377 00:24:54,160 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: work their way inward. I worked years ago with a 378 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: writer who wrote science fiction, and his technique was to 379 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: get the Icelandic sagas and then just translate them into 380 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: a science fiction story. And he said, the sagas are 381 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: so rich, so violent, so fascinating, that you could literally 382 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: just you know, earn a living out of explaining the 383 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: future as though it was occurring in Iceland. It does 384 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: seem to me that Iceland is different than the mainland 385 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: Scandinavian countries, you know which your friend did. That technique 386 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: is almost exactly what j R. R. Token did with 387 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: his Lord of the Rings trilogy. I mean, the warp 388 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: and woof of the Lord of the Rings is the 389 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: North Sagas Talking really saw the Lord of the Rings 390 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: trilogy as a way to snatch Norse mythology and Norse literature, 391 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: including the Sagas, out of the hands of the Nazis, 392 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: because the Nazis had used it and mobilized that mythology 393 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: as part of a racist ideology that this was about 394 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 1: the Aryan race and that this was about pure Nordic 395 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: stock and the achievements that they had brought about TALKI 396 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: saw that as insidious, he saw it as historically wrong, 397 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: and he wanted the Lord of the Rings to be 398 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: a way in which he could recapture the real majesty 399 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: of these works. But Iceland is isolated. It becomes a 400 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: kind of a greenhouse in which older Viking customs and 401 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: stories are able to be preserved without being swept up 402 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: and dispersed into the mainstream of medieval civilization. And it's 403 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: a type knit community as well. And if you go 404 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: through the Icelandic sagas, which are extraordinary works of literature. 405 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: I think probably the only really readable medieval literature that 406 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: there is for modern readers, which you come to realize 407 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: is it's really about the families and about the quarrels 408 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: and the feuds and the lives that those families and 409 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: clans lived on that very barren and exposed island in 410 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 1: the middle of the Atlantic. Iceland comes across as a 411 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: family centric rather than national system. I think that's a 412 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: very acute judgment, and it's what made their democracy work, 413 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: you know. I think their National Assembly lays claim, I 414 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,640 Speaker 1: think justifiably to be the oldest democracy in the world. 415 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: And I don't think that kind of participatory system could 416 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: work as well as it does and as long as 417 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: it has, if there hadn't been a strong sense of 418 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: family based, or we could say, clan based community that 419 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: held Icelanders together wherever they came from, whether they were 420 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: of Irish descent or Scots or Norwegians, it didn't matter. 421 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: You were part of this community. And the community holds 422 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: together is what makes it possible to survive in a 423 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: place like that, and in a landscape like that, in 424 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: an isolation like that, and that's all reflected in those 425 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: Icelandic sagas as well with all the technologies of the 426 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: modern world. Is it your sense that the Icelanders are 427 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: still largely a clan based system. I would say that 428 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: it's still very much an insider's game, let's put it 429 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: that way. And I think they take great pride in 430 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: being distinct even from the other Scandinavian societies and cultures. 431 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: And given the small population, it's one in which you 432 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: have the ability to maintain personal contacts persist over time, 433 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: and it reached back into history, right. I mean, it's 434 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: a population of less than half a million people compared 435 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: to Sweden's ten million. I get the sense too that 436 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: they were poor enough that they weren't particularly worth rating. 437 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: I think that's also part of it as well. But 438 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: they were part of a trading network that reached out 439 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: across the other side of the North Atlantic to the 440 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: west to the earliest Viking settlements that we know about 441 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: there in Newfoundland, but also to Greenland. There was a 442 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: triangular trading network Greenland Iceland, back to the British Isles 443 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: and then to Norway. That Iceland was very much a 444 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: part of its commodities that were in demand, and that's 445 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: how the Icelanders keep themselves going. Why didn't the trading 446 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: network not extend to Native Americans. We don't really know 447 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: to what extent it did. I mean, there are goods 448 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: that turn up in grave sites in Greenland as well 449 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: as Norway, which must have come from Native American sources, 450 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: crafts in SMA. But my own guess is is that 451 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: as the Viking age waned and as the focus for 452 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: the Norsemen really became less on breaking out from Western civilization, 453 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: from European civilization and becoming integrated at they lost interest 454 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: in what was happening further to the west. And they'll 455 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: leave it to the likes of Christopher Columbus four hundred 456 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: years later to think about what is it that really 457 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: lies out there on the other side of the coast 458 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: of Portugal and Spain. With their extraordinary mobility, they must 459 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: have had the sense of the margins of the world, 460 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: and they don't really go down the African coast. They're 461 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: really sort of drawn back again and again to places 462 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: that are already civilized. I think that's a good point, 463 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: and I think part of it is because that's where 464 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: the money can be made and where land can be 465 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: easily obtained, whether it's in northern England or Ireland, or 466 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: Normandy or in the heart of what's today Ukraine around Kiv. 467 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: In the case of the Viken, you look at Viking 468 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: myth right, theology of the Norse myth is very much 469 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: divided into the known and the unknown. That the known 470 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: is the world that surrounds the gods and men. It's familiar, 471 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: but all around them is this realm of the unknown. 472 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: And the unknown is not a place which is a 473 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: forbidden zone or taboo in any kind of way. It's 474 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: where you venture out and have interactions with people you've 475 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: never dealt with before. So there was always a sense 476 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: of what is familiar and what is unfamiliar. These are 477 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: permeable boundaries, and I don't think you would see the 478 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: Vikings engage in these kinds of far reaching, far flung 479 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: expeditions if there hadn't been the sense that what lies 480 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: beyond the horizon isn't something terrible, isn't something to dread, 481 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: but something to go out and meet and to find, 482 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: if not new loot, maybe even a life for yourself 483 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: and your family. And that's one of the primary drivers 484 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: I think for what I call the Viking heart is 485 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: that willingness to go out beyond the horizon, to venture 486 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: and to take on the unknown. So when you look 487 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: at Normandy or Ukraine, to what extent are they a 488 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: thin layer of governing on top of a preexisting native population. 489 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: I think that that's almost certainly true, particularly true in 490 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: the Ukraine or in the Kingdom of the Russ as 491 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: they were called, the russ being the descendants of the Swedish. 492 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: The men who rowe is what the term comes from. 493 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: Again attribute to their nautical skills, and we know in 494 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: the case of the russ that they very quickly adopt 495 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: the culture, the dress, and the language of the Slavic 496 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: peoples around them. What they leave behind is really more 497 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: in the realm of let's say, archaeology as opposed to 498 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: a longstanding cultural legacy. Could argue something is similar with Normandy, 499 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: in which the main mark that they leave is probably 500 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: place names across northern France. But the stamp that they 501 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: leave as from a political standpoint, is one that is 502 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: hugely significant for the shaping of medieval civilization and for 503 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: drawing the boundaries of Christendom. And I think that's one 504 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: of the key aspects of this new It's become unfashionable 505 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: to talk about Christendom, but it was inellectable part of 506 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: what made European history, of made Western civilization, and the 507 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: descendants of the Vikings, whether they're Normans or the russ 508 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: the Vikings themselves become the standard bearers for that Christendom 509 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: against its s adversaries, whether it's Islam or whether it's 510 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: the pagan threats coming out of the Eastern European tribes 511 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: and the Slavic tribes as well. So they're integral part 512 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: of European civilization, both as a venturist but also as 513 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: great political leaders and rulers. And we just can't leave 514 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: that out when we think about what the Scandinavian legacy 515 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: is to history and to the shaping of our own world. 516 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: One last question, which is about the power of structures 517 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: to change things. If I remember correctly, part of what 518 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: made the Normans so expansionist was a day at a 519 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: very firm rule that the oldest son basically inherited the land, 520 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: the second son went into the church, and the younger 521 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: sons were supposed to go out adventuring to places like Sicily. 522 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:43,280 Speaker 1: Is that relatively accurate, that is roughly accurate. Within Scandinavia itself. 523 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 1: Usually land was subdivided among the sons. Was one of 524 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: the ways to prevent some degree of competition for our 525 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: control over the farm or over the estates, and the 526 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: Germanic tribes that came down from Scandinavia tended to follow 527 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: that custom as well. The problem is is that when 528 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: you've got ten to twelve sons, even if you divide 529 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: the land equally, that's a pretty small portion to make 530 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: a living or to build a family. So yes, that 531 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: became the rule that when you had a lot of sons, 532 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: like the famous family distinguished Norman Knightville has twelve sons, 533 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: what are they going to do? Well, what they're going 534 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: to do is they're going to take their swords and 535 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: head east to look for a ways in which to 536 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: make a living for themselves and to build a new 537 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: life for themselves. And this is what the Normans do. 538 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: It's an inheritance of what the Vikings themselves had done 539 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: in their earlier time, and it becomes a trademark for 540 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,399 Speaker 1: the way in which what we call the Norman conquests 541 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: take place. In the Middle Ages, there are always younger 542 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: sons who are trained for warfare, who understand that their 543 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: prowess in arms is the key to financial as well 544 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: as political power, and who then launched themselves out into 545 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,359 Speaker 1: the world in order to bring those skills to bear 546 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: on the world around them. And that was definitely the 547 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: case with the Normans and their huge expansion again like 548 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:17,280 Speaker 1: the Vikings enormously rappid, enormously quick expansion across the central 549 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: to the Eastern Mediterranean, where they become also a key 550 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: players in the development of the Crusades. Listen, Arth, I 551 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,439 Speaker 1: want to thank you for joining me as somebody who's 552 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 1: been fascinated by the Vikings. Your new book, The Viking 553 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: Heart How Scandinavians Conquered the World is going to be 554 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: a great success. It is fascinating and I really recommend 555 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,399 Speaker 1: it to our listeners and they can find a link 556 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: to order the book on our show page at Newtsworld 557 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: dot com. And I just want to thank you for 558 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:50,720 Speaker 1: your continued efforts to bring sophisticated ideas to the general 559 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: public in a way that they both get educated and 560 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: entertained in the same volume. And you're doing amazing work. 561 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: And by treasure you as a friend and as a 562 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: fellow citizen, and I admire you as an author. That 563 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: praise means a great deal to me, and I thank 564 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 1: you and I'm delighted we had this time to target. 565 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Arthur Herman. You can get 566 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: a link to his new book The Viking Heart How 567 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:23,399 Speaker 1: Scandinavians Conquered the World on our show page at newtsworld 568 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: dot com. Newtsworld is produced by Gingerish three sixty and iHeartMedia. 569 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Debbie Myers, our producer is Garnsey Sloan, 570 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 571 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the 572 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: team at Gingrich three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 573 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 574 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 575 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 576 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: of Newtsworld can sign up from my three free weekly 577 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:03,919 Speaker 1: columns at Gingwish three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Nudgangrich. 578 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: This is Newtsworld.