1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: Podcast playground, taking a walk with buzsnight. Hey, buzs Hey, worry, 2 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: what's up. It's great to be with you here in 3 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: the Washington Square Park on what is sort of an 4 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: overcast but fortunately not raining day in really the heart 5 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: of Greenwich Village. So we are right in the middle 6 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: of New York University NYU, and this is my tenth 7 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: year at NYU. I'm a professor here and I'm the 8 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: head of the music business programs here. We have an 9 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: undergraduate music business program where people get a Bachelor of 10 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: Music degree with a concentration in music business. And we 11 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: have a graduate program, a two year master's program, and 12 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: both of those programs graduate people who go out into 13 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: the world and like no kidding, make a dent in 14 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: the universe, in the music universe, either as performers or 15 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: as executives, or as entrepreneurs in really or even as 16 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: educators in every sort of music context that we can 17 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: think of, whether that's a digital music service or a 18 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: major or independent record company, or a music publisher. In 19 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: the live music business at the major talent agencies or 20 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 1: at the live nations and AEGs of the world, in 21 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: the performing rights organizations with the digital music services at 22 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: every digital music service Spotify and Apple Music, Pandora and 23 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: so on. And one of the super interesting things for me, 24 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: There's so much that's interesting about what I get to 25 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,919 Speaker 1: do every day, But one of the most interesting things 26 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: to me about this community in particular, is how global 27 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: it is, how totally international it is. About a third 28 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: of our undergrad students are from outside the United States. 29 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: The rest of them are from all over the country. 30 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: In our graduate program, about half of them are from 31 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: outside the United States, and they are from everywhere, and 32 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: so they come here to learn from us. I think, 33 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 1: you know, I'll share with you. Don't tell anybody that 34 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: I and maybe some of my colleagues come here to 35 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: learn from them, and I learned as much from them 36 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: as they learn from us. Well, let's take a walk, Larry. Well, 37 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: you know, I was opining first of all before I 38 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 1: came to see you a little bit. I'm very grateful 39 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: for my time that was at the University of Dayton 40 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: studying communications, so really no regrets to speak of. But 41 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: my opining came in the form that I was thinking, 42 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: my god, if I if I knew of a Larry 43 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: Miller at NYU when I was deciding places to go. 44 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 1: I wish I had that consideration because I was right 45 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: down the road in Stanford, Connecticut. It was a hop, 46 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: skip and a jump. But anyway, that's my opining. Well, 47 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,119 Speaker 1: I was also a little baby radio DJ back then 48 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: as you were. By the way, did you work at 49 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: WTUE back then? Well? What was your Dayton Radio cd VUD? Yeah, 50 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: that was the university station. Yeah right, And look at 51 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: I mean when we were college age, Greenwich Village was 52 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: a very different place than it is now. NYU was 53 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: a vastly different place than you know, than it is today, 54 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: and so was the music industry, and so were the 55 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: way is that people who were musically inclined, or musically interested, 56 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: or even musically obsessed got to interact with artists and 57 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 1: you know, the music industry proper. It was. It feels 58 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: like several eons ago. Well it might have been, but 59 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: that's okay. So okay, did you meet Taylor Swift when 60 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: she was at a graduation? First of all, everyone wants 61 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: to know that. Yeah, the answer to that is no. 62 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: And so you know, NYU is a big place. I 63 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 1: mean it's a school of sixty thousand students and a 64 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: bunch of different schools within the university. NYU commencement, the 65 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: big commencement thing is at Yankee Stadium every year, at 66 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: every non COVID year, that is. And as I think 67 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: everyone on the internet discovered, Taylor was the graduation speaker 68 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: at commencement a Yankee Stadium this year. And for one day, 69 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: Taylor and NYU owned the Internet. But on that day 70 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: I was watching it on Zoom, not actually at Yankee Stadium. 71 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: I stayed home, I got to say this year, but 72 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: my academic program and my department are at the Steinhardt 73 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: School of Culture, Education and Human Development, where the music 74 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: and Performing Arts Professions department is a really big department 75 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: within Steinhardt and really by itself the size of a 76 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: sixteen hundred person college. And the Steinhardt graduation is at 77 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: Radio City, and that's the place where we announced the 78 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: names of all the graduates. And it's our practice to 79 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: seat the faculty on the stage and greet our students 80 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: as they come across the stage. So I was very 81 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: glad to be back on the stage at Radio City 82 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: this year in person to do Steinhardt graduations. So Yankee 83 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: Stadium and Taylor no Radio City, Yes, batting Forth, Taylor 84 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift twist, Yeah, yeah, yeah. So one of my 85 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: favorite things about the podcast is meeting new folks, but 86 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: also the reconnection with folks that you've known for a while. 87 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: And as I was thinking about our history and there's 88 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: other people that I've interviewed on the podcast, the history 89 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: is I can't remember where it actually began. Coincidentally, do 90 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: you know, because I've got a few pockets of our 91 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: history but helped me out. I'm gonna guess it's not 92 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: a bad thing. I'm going to guess that. Well, should 93 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: I say a year, I don't care, Okay, I think 94 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: that the year was probably around nineteen eighty four. I 95 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: think the place was, at least in terms of the 96 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: first time we'd met in person, was at I ninety 97 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: five WRKI Brookfield or whatever place you were in rock 98 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: radio station in Connecticut that I think you were the 99 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: program director of then and I was working at the Source, 100 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: which was NBC's rock radio network, And I think we 101 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: met during that first year, that sounds right. And then 102 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: subsequently you went to some amazingly and entrepreneurial places and 103 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,559 Speaker 1: independent places in your career, and we liked talking about 104 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs and independents, what was after the source for you. 105 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: So at the time, General Electric Company shout out to 106 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: GE had had bought NBC from RCA, which was the 107 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: company that founded NBC, and GE decided in the late 108 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: eighties to spin off the radio division, and I did 109 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: a few other radio things. Some of them were more 110 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: entrepreneurial than others. I ran a joint venture between Don 111 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: Kirshner in an ad agency, and we produced and distributed 112 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: syndicated programming that radio stations would air. And my last 113 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: daily job in radio was at a New York radio station, 114 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: CD one on one point nine, the smooth jazz radio 115 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: station at the time was owned by the Tribune Company. 116 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: Before I went to NBC, I had originally come to 117 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: New York to help start the Z one hundred, the 118 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: pop radio state that is still a pretty popular radio 119 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: station as I understand it. But my last daily radio 120 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: gig was at CD one oh one point nine in 121 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: New York. And after that, and actually before that ended, 122 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: I had decided that I was missing something in my 123 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: own educational toolkit. There was stuff that I wanted to 124 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: know about that I looked around and I noticed that 125 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: certain other people whose career trajectories I admired had done 126 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: some of those things that they'd either picked it up 127 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: along the way in their early work experiences or they 128 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: had gone to school for it. Who were some of 129 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: those people too? Okay, So I was really super super 130 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: lucky at at NBC, and I had a couple of 131 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: great mentors, I mean really really great mentors. And I 132 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: always say to students today when they are looking for 133 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: advice about internships, because of course internships are, I'm going 134 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: to say, an essential on ramp to working today, and 135 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 1: not just the music industry broadly defined, but in any business, 136 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: I say, go hire yourself the best mentor that you 137 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: can find, Separate from whatever the name of the company 138 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: looks like on your resume, go find yourself the best 139 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: mentor that you can get. And I was lucky, and 140 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: I had a couple really early on. One of them 141 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: was a guy named Randy Bonngarten, who was the president 142 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: of NBC Radio when I was there, and we were 143 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: talking one day and the conversation went something like, jeez, 144 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: you know, I see how much you love this radio 145 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: stuff that we do. And he could see that I 146 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: was sort of torn at that point between being talent 147 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: and being on the business side, and he said, you know, 148 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: let me give you a word of advice. He had 149 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: gone to Columbia Business School, and he said, in not 150 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: quite so many words, that there was stuff that you 151 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: would get that you don't currently have if you went 152 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: to business school, whether it was Columbia or someplace else. 153 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: And so, although I didn't do it straight away, and maybe, 154 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: you know, my trajectory might have looked a little different 155 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: if I had, but some years later I took Randy's 156 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: advice and I went to Columbia. And when I think 157 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: back at the transformative inflection points in my career and 158 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: just in my life, I think about things like meeting 159 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: my wife and the birth of my kids. But I 160 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: also think about the year that I decided to run 161 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: the New York Marathon, based on no evidence that I 162 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: could even run around the block, which I did once 163 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: and only once, and it was amazing. The other was 164 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: my decision to go to business school, which gave me 165 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: a new lens through which to view the world. Now. 166 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: I had many friends and colleagues in business school who 167 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: were already working in sort of traditional finance kinds of 168 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 1: roles in banking or in consulting, and many of them 169 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: were there to kind of get their card punched, you know, 170 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: they were really there for the degree. Certainly I wanted 171 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: the degree, but what I got was just a dramatically new, flexible, 172 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: powerful way of thinking about fundamental things like risk and reward, 173 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: measuring growth. And although I've taken a lot of bets 174 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: in my life, in my career, some of them have 175 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: worked out great, others of them have worked out less great. 176 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: But I really got an understanding for myself about how 177 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: to navigate in a world that is inherently risky, where 178 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: there is no such thing as perfect information, And that, 179 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: as much as anything else, is what I got from 180 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: business school. But I digress. But that was a supercharging moment, 181 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: and I think, if I'm hearing you correctly, it really 182 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: fueled also your independent thinking about the way you looked 183 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: at business and probably the world. It's true, and my 184 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: timing was good because I finished business school in nineteen 185 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: ninety four, which was at the beginning of the commercial Internet. 186 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: I mean, it was a time when major publications, when 187 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: they were referring to the Internet, they spelled it with 188 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: a capital I, and they needed to explain what it was. 189 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: The global network of network blah blah blah blah blah, 190 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: world Wide Web blah blah blah blah blah. That's when 191 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: I was sort of coming on the scene. And when 192 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: I came out of business school, I got a job 193 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: working in a strategy consulting firm, as many people do. 194 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: And we had a session soon after I got there 195 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: that was a you know, planning meeting for how we 196 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: were as a practice group going to attack the next year. 197 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: And I was a room full of pretty smart people 198 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: who I was working with, most of them much smarter 199 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: than me. And and somebody asked, well, who can you 200 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: know leverage what we do and be you know, credible, 201 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: and maybe even I know a couple of people in 202 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: music industry given that in nineteen ninety four, nineteen ninety five, 203 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six, there were some super early responsible experiments 204 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: having some well responsible, some less responsible, that were at 205 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: the time just about observing and understanding that given the 206 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: limited bandwidth that there was in the world for people 207 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: to access the Internet, that it was possible to send 208 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: sound over this thing. You remember progressive networks, what real 209 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: networks was called before it was that. You probably remember 210 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: some of the earliest download experiments that happened at major labels. 211 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: At independent labels, there were unsigned artists that were smashing 212 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: out m P three's and at least putting them out 213 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: there as a form of promotion. Nothing was being monetized yet. 214 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: And this was almost ten years before the introduction of 215 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: the iTunes music store, let alone Spotify. And so you 216 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: could tell that if you had an advantage in understanding 217 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: the technology, but even the vocabulary around the technology of 218 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: music creation and distribution, that you might have a competitive advantage, 219 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: not just as a consultant in the space, but if 220 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: you were a company like any record company or music 221 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: publisher was, or even broadcaster at that point, who needed 222 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 1: to get their own learning their own not just something 223 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 1: that they read in a book or on a website someplace, 224 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: but actually have tried some things and maybe had some 225 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: successes and failures. And I still contend that you can 226 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: learn from both, but from the failures. We tell students 227 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: fail fast, but that they are all learnings. Yeah, and 228 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: there are and there are all learnings. And in fact, 229 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: when I think about my time in the in the 230 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: radio business, I learned and I'll bet you did too, 231 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: from some of the very smartest and some of the 232 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: very dumbest people I've ever ever met. Well, this is true. 233 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: And the dumb ones I'll probably leave out. And the 234 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: smart ones we're always willing to probably talk about, yeah, 235 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: and even and even name them. Yeah, oh, definitely. Yeah. 236 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: The dumb ones I tend to leave out just because 237 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:54,959 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's worthy of the bandwidth. But uh, 238 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: we can learn from them too, definitely. Anyway, So I 239 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: ended up getting hired by a client, and the client 240 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: was AT and T Labs. And at the time uh 241 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: AT and T had been had been broken up, and 242 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: what had been AT and T Bell Laboratories was split 243 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: in half between what became Lucent, the equipment manufacturer, and 244 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: what remained as AT and T, and much of AT 245 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: and T Labs research, which retained many of the patents 246 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: that AT and T had, was was being you know, 247 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: newly reconstituted and literally in my first week at at 248 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: AT and T, I met a guy named Howie Singer, 249 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: who is still my friend and in fact still he 250 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 1: teaches with me now at NYU. And Howie had been 251 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: a really a lifer at AT and T and had 252 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: a bunch of patents, and he had a job in 253 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: the Labs that was really about sort of translating soft 254 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: technology and helping turn it into products, into commercial products. 255 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: And Howe and I met at a meeting and we 256 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: were sort of kindred spirits from you know, from the 257 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: very beginning. And at this meeting, how he had a 258 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: device that he was showing everybody there was about the 259 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: size of a of a shoe box, and it didn't 260 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: look like much. I mean, it looked like a sort 261 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: of a heath Kit science project if maybe you had 262 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: one of those heath Kit radios that you know from 263 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: from you know, back as a kid, from maybe when 264 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:52,959 Speaker 1: you were eight or ten. Well, my problem with it 265 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: is I bought it already put together, so because I 266 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: didn't really know how to buss with things like that. 267 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 1: But yes, right, So, so Howie's thing was built was 268 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: built as a as a demonstration of technology that AT 269 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: and T had to make super high quality music into 270 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: a really small file. So it was a particular approach 271 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: to audio compression, which today is part of AAC one 272 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: of the you know, high bit audio compression formats that 273 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: that is used in you know, in much of the 274 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: world and many of the services that we don't even 275 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: think about today. It's just part of the plumbing. But 276 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: he had this device that would play music that didn't 277 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: go on a CD or any other kind of a 278 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: shiny thing that spins. It sat on a P C, 279 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: M C I a card that was like, you know, 280 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: the size of a business card that had a bunch 281 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: of chips in it and a single card could hold 282 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: one or two songs at the time. And that he 283 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: had built this portable reader that could play music that 284 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: was on the solid state card and you could shake 285 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: it and still hear it and it wouldn't skip. Wow, 286 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: and it sounded amazing, and it blew my mind to say, yeah, 287 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: you had to have it blew my mind. I mean 288 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 1: if you were, you know, growing up in the age 289 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: when we did, and we lived through various formats of 290 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: you know, music storage, music consumption, music purchase. We lived 291 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: through all of it, right from you know, from radio 292 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: to you know, you know seven inch forty fives and 293 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: twelve inch thirty three and a third RPM records, eight 294 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: tracks of course, the cassette time and uh and then 295 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: the whole CD period and we had you know, discmands 296 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: that we walked around with and we had cassette players 297 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: in our cars, and you probably bet when you were 298 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: in high school, I'll bet you had an A track player, 299 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, screwed into the bottom of your dashboard, possibly 300 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: next to the converter, next to the FM converter. Yeah, yeah, 301 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: I had. I had one of those what relics. It's 302 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: like the extent that we would go to to get 303 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: music that sounded even marginally better uh than you know 304 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,360 Speaker 1: what came before it. And so I saw this device 305 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: that Howie had and I was all in, like from 306 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 1: that second. So Howie and I became partners in sort 307 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: of a skunk works, uh science project that we got 308 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: some money from AT and T Labs and the major 309 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: music companies to develop, and that was called A to 310 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: B Music at and T A to B Music, which 311 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: was one of the forerunners of secure digital distribution of 312 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: music on the Internet, which, by I forget what year, 313 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: sometime in the late nineties, we spun the A to 314 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: B Music team out of AT and T Labs and 315 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: merged it with another company that in those sort of 316 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 1: heady Internet one years where there were so many startups 317 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: that were getting funded, some of them were conducting more 318 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: responsible experiments than others. One of those companies was a 319 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: company called Reciprocal, which you may remember, that provided a 320 00:24:55,359 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: service for music companies and also movie companies and so 321 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: you know, book publishers that allowed for secure digital distribution 322 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 1: of their stuff without being didactic about or without requiring 323 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: a certain sort of rights framework or underlying technology for 324 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: the way that the music was compressed, or for the 325 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: way that the rules were going to be embedded into 326 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: that digital file describing how that music might be able 327 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: to be shared, for example, or resolved. So we went 328 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: to Reciprocal, and a couple of years later, Reciprocal was 329 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: sold to Microsoft, and that was a really fun time. 330 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: During that Reciprocal, you know period, we were on track 331 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: to go public in March of two thousand when the 332 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: market crashed and the uh the dot com bubble burst 333 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: in Internet one and not too long after that, nine 334 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: to eleven happened right over there and right behind those 335 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: buildings that we are looking at now, UH is where 336 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: the twin towers of the World Trade Center used to 337 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: stick up. And I was in New York on that day, 338 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: not here in Washington Square, but close to here, and 339 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: it is a day that, uh, we will never forget. 340 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: And in the weeks and months after nine to eleven, 341 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: I started looking for a a music deal, to either 342 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: start with partners or invest in. I mean, it was 343 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: a dark time in New York. The air was out 344 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: of the sort of Internet one balloon, sort of like 345 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: Web three is today. Maybe we'll talk about that in 346 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:25,239 Speaker 1: a few minutes. And I thought at the time, I was, 347 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, still in my thirties, and so I 348 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 1: was not a kid. And I had spent my whole 349 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: career in and around music, in radio and in music 350 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: distribution technology, and as a consultant who was lucky enough 351 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: to have a front row seat at much of the 352 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: sort of transformative deal making that had happened around the 353 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 1: consolidation of the music industry that sort of drove the 354 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: formation of the companies that are today's major music companies. 355 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: And yet the thing that still motivated me was the music. 356 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: And I thought, maybe it's time to put my money 357 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: where my mouth is and see if I'm any good 358 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: at that signing artists and songwriters and starting a company. 359 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: So we started a company called or Music Oh our Music, 360 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: our Distributor with Sony, and I was in business. We 361 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: were signing artists and songwriters. I I had a partner, 362 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:53,239 Speaker 1: and I'll tell you that the first three things that 363 00:28:53,280 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: we put out were not exactly sensational hit records. It 364 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: was funny. I remember there was somebody, there was a 365 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: really smart guy who was working for Sony at the time, 366 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: for their distribution company, who looked at my business plan 367 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: and he said, you know, this is a really good 368 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: financial model. He said, except that, you know, there's a 369 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: really good chance that you're probably not going to sell 370 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: an average of the equivalent of twenty five thousand albums 371 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: per project. You're probably going to sell less than that. 372 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: And I said, really, what's the lowest number that I 373 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: should be forecasting. He said, well, on some projects, it's 374 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: possible to have to write off your whole investment and 375 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,959 Speaker 1: sell zero Actually, there was a project that was one 376 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,479 Speaker 1: of our first two where I learned that you can 377 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: actually sell less than zero copies. You can actually sell 378 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: a negative number records that you at the time, you know, 379 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: manufacturer and put out there because of the time, although 380 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: we were still straddling the beginning of the digital music business, 381 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: you know, but you in that venture, yeah, did I 382 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: might say do what most people never do, and that 383 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: is you found a needle in a haystack with a hit. 384 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: We did. We had a hit. So our first two 385 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: records didn't work out great. The third one was a 386 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: Tower Power record which did about what we thought it would. 387 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: Tower Power, of course from Oakland, California, for me, the 388 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: greatest funk band in the history of the world, still 389 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: out there touring. Go see him if you ever get 390 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: a chance. And that record did about what we thought 391 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: it would, and that gave us a chance to breathe 392 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: for a minute. And then we put out that Needle 393 00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: in a Haystack and that was a band called Lost 394 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: Lonely Boys, which was a band that we discovered or 395 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: really was shopped to us in like the first week 396 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: that we were open as a company. And at the 397 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: time Los Lonely Boys who were from actually they were 398 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: from San Angelo, Texas. They are still managed today by 399 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: the brilliant and fabulous and honest and knowledgeable manager still 400 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: based in Austin, Kevin Womack. And Kevin at the time 401 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: had Los Lonely Boys signed in a production deal to 402 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: Willie Nelson's company, and they had made a record that 403 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: they were looking for a distribution deal on. So they 404 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: were shopping what they thought was going to be a 405 00:31:54,760 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: finished record, got somebody to put it out, and we 406 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: heard the record and we thought, there's really something here. 407 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: Let's go see them. So we called up Kevin and 408 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: we were on a plane to Austin the next day 409 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: because they had a gig that night at a club 410 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: that no longer exists in Austin. It was a big club. Actually, 411 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: it was a laughably big club. Like we were there 412 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: and maybe eight other people were at this club unless 413 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: only boys came out and they just tore the roof off. 414 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: They played as if they were playing Madison Square Guard. 415 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: It was, up until that time, the most amazing thing 416 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: I had ever seen in my life. And I mean 417 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: they are three Texican brothers, the Garza brothers from San Angelo. 418 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: They have that tight vocal harmony, sort of like the 419 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: Everly Brothers that only you know, real brothers you know, 420 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: can have, and they could play like crazy. And in fact, 421 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: Henry Garza, the guitar player, is you know in Rolling 422 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: Stone's you know, the greatest rock guitar players of all time. 423 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: And the song in particular that was the big one 424 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: was Heaven Was Heaven? Yeah? I believe by the way, 425 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: the at the time I was at greater media, and well, 426 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: I would be there in two thousand and two and 427 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: they played the EarthFest concert. The w BOS put on somewhere. 428 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: I would think a few years after that. It was 429 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: not at the moment of the hit. It was, you know, 430 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: it was a little after that, but it was terrific. 431 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: They were, I'm sure still are charismatic band, and just 432 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: like you said that, that tight knit. Hey hi, Michael, 433 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: say hi to Michael Jame over there. Hey Michael, how 434 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: are you? Yeah later, he's on the phone. We're recording 435 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: a podcast. So Michael Dorp is my friend who is 436 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 1: the owner of City Winery. Oh yeah, all the City Wineries. Yeah, 437 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: there you go. I love that. I love that. So 438 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: so anyway, the thing about Lost Lonely Boys, I mean, 439 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,240 Speaker 1: it sure was great having a you know, multimillion selling 440 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: hit record, but we're also the publisher of Lost Lonely Boys, 441 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: and we came down the learning curve on publishing very 442 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: very very fast. And I've been a little bit obsessed 443 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: about music rights and about publishing in particular ever since. 444 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 1: Well there, and I'm glad that you did that beautiful 445 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: transition to that topic. So I have a number of things. 446 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: State of the state I'd love to you speak about, 447 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: first of all, speak about the state of rights when 448 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 1: it comes to, you know, publishing, when it comes to 449 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 1: what's going on, certainly between radio and you know, the 450 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 1: the publishers. So what's the face of this right now 451 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: as you look at it, it's a very I know, 452 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: that's it. That's a deep that's a deep one. But 453 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: how do you grade it? Okay, So let's do radio 454 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 1: and the publishers, and then let's do radio and the 455 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: record companies. First, let's start with how songwriters get paid 456 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: in the United States. It's a little different than other 457 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: territories around the world. If you're a songwriter who is 458 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: not a performer as well, then you write songs, either 459 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: by yourself or with others, and other people record your 460 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: songs and put them out. Every song that you hear 461 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: on the radio, on the internet, or in any other 462 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: mode of music discovery and listening that there is, with 463 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:40,839 Speaker 1: or without video, has two different copyrights in it. There's 464 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: the copyright in the sound recording of the song. That 465 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: makes sense, and that's pretty easy to wrap your head around. 466 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: And usually in the United States, the copyright in the 467 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: sound recording of the song is the province of the 468 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: record company, or if it is a self financed independent 469 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: performer who might also be a writer, they can own 470 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: that copyright. And the sound recording certainly separate from the 471 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: copyright in the sound recording of the song. There's the 472 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: copyright in the song itself, the underlying musical composition. The 473 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: copyright in the underlying musical composition, the song itself in 474 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:40,320 Speaker 1: US law and in the laws of other countries over 475 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty countries around the world is old 476 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: and it's codified. And if you think about it, there 477 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: was a sheet music business long before there was a 478 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: sound recording business. And most people, when they think about it, 479 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: the music publishing business. For if you're a civilian, if 480 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: I say music publishing, you might think, oh, you mean 481 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 1: the sheet music that was in the piano bench that 482 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 1: we had in the house when we were growing up. 483 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 1: That's music publishing, right, And the answer is in my 484 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: response is yes, that is a form of music publishing. 485 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: But today sheet music revenue for music publishers and songwriters 486 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: is under one percent of the revenue that they get. 487 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the other ninety nine percent of 488 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:47,879 Speaker 1: the revenue that songwriters and music publishers get so when 489 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: a song is created, yes, I mean you can make 490 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: a print version of it, but you can license the 491 00:38:54,840 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 1: song for recording and for distribution, and those particular rights 492 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: are usually embedded in what is today called a mechanical royalty, 493 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 1: which is not something that concerns radio, much of radio, 494 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 1: at least AMFM radio, but it very much does concern 495 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: digital music services. The mechanical right, and maybe we can 496 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 1: come back to that in a minute. Then there is 497 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,399 Speaker 1: the right to public performance, and that is the right 498 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: to license the entities, including all of radio, who want 499 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:44,320 Speaker 1: to publicly perform and transmit. That's that underlying musical composition 500 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:46,959 Speaker 1: that of course when you hear it on the radio, 501 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 1: is embedded with the sound recording. So there is So 502 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: far we've talked about the mechanical right, and we've talked 503 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,280 Speaker 1: about the public performance right. And the third may segment 504 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: of revenue for songwriters and music publishers is sync or synchronization, 505 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: which some of your listeners may have heard of, and 506 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: you might imagine that there is a separate write that 507 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 1: is not statutory. In other words, there is no law 508 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: describing how much a user would have to pay or 509 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: how much writer or a publisher would get paid for 510 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 1: using a piece of music in fixed time synchronized to 511 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: a TV show or a movie or an ad. So 512 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: anytime music is in a movie or a TV show 513 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: or even a YouTube video, there needs to be a 514 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: sync license on the one hand to allow the producers 515 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: of the thing to synchronize that song into their movie 516 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: or a TV show or whatever it is. And then 517 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: when that thing is played in say movie theaters around 518 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: the world as said the United States, or played on 519 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,879 Speaker 1: television or cable or streamed by Netflix or anybody else, 520 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: there is a public performance write and royalty that accrued 521 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:24,399 Speaker 1: their benefit as well. So we've talked about mechanicals. We've 522 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,240 Speaker 1: talked about public performance, which is not just for radio 523 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: but also for TV and to some extent digital music services. 524 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 1: We've talked about synchrosynchronization, and we've even touched on sheet music, 525 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: which I sort of put into the bucket called other right. Other, 526 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 1: by the way, might also contain stuff like if you 527 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 1: ever opened up a greeting card and a little dinky 528 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 1: sounding melody of the song started playing, they need a 529 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,479 Speaker 1: license for that too, from the you know, the music 530 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: publisher or on behalf of the songwriter. So that's publishing. 531 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: When a record company uses a song, they need to 532 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 1: pay the publisher and the songwriter a mechanical royalty for 533 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: the use of that song in the sound recording that 534 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 1: they are about to make or have made, but before 535 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,359 Speaker 1: they release it. It's called a mechanical by the way, 536 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 1: because in the years immediately before nineteen oh nine, the 537 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: music publishers in the United States and in UK and 538 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 1: throughout Europe, we're all up in arms because there was 539 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: a growing middle class and one of the sort of 540 00:42:55,520 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 1: aspirational things to have as a middle class family as 541 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 1: a piano and player pianos were a fantastic thing to have, 542 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 1: and so player pianos were proliferating. And the things that 543 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 1: you need to make a player piano play were you know, 544 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 1: piano roles, songs that were you know, mechanically etched into 545 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: a you know, player piano role. These are and this 546 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,759 Speaker 1: is you know, separate from the wax cylinders that were 547 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: their earliest days of sound recording. But you needed this 548 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 1: mechanical thing in order for your player piano to work. 549 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:44,240 Speaker 1: And what was happening was that there were a large 550 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:51,400 Speaker 1: number of let's just say an ethical, you know, business 551 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:56,280 Speaker 1: people who were using music that wasn't theirs in creating 552 00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: player piano roles and and selling them without a license. 553 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: And in the Copyright Act of nineteen oh nine is 554 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: when the mechanical license and the mechanical right was first 555 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: codified in US copyright law. Soon thereafter, of course, you 556 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:23,800 Speaker 1: needed to have record companies pay a mechanical rate for 557 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,600 Speaker 1: the use of the song and making a sound recording 558 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,400 Speaker 1: of that song. And so this is sort of a 559 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: long way to go to talk about the world that 560 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: we have inherited today when it comes to the understanding 561 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 1: and even explanation of music rights. Because the fact is, 562 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,799 Speaker 1: if we were inventing the business for the business that 563 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 1: exists today, it would never look the way that it 564 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: looks right now, like not in a million years. But 565 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 1: you asked about radio and publishing and radio and the 566 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: record business, and so I will tell you that it 567 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: might surprise at least some of your listeners that when 568 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 1: commercial radio in the United States or non commercial radio 569 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 1: plays a piece of music, that you hear that songwriters 570 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: and music publishers get paid something. And maybe you've heard 571 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:30,480 Speaker 1: of the performing rights organizations ASCAP and BMI and CSAK, 572 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 1: and there's another company called Global Music Rights that operates 573 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 1: now in the United States that license music on behalf 574 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:43,719 Speaker 1: of publishers and songwriters to the radio industry, so that 575 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:49,399 Speaker 1: radio stations can play pretty much whatever they want if 576 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,280 Speaker 1: they have a blanket license from those performing rights organizations, 577 00:45:53,800 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: and the writers and songwriters get paid. But the United 578 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 1: States is the only country on Earth with advanced intellectual 579 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,920 Speaker 1: property laws that has an exemption for the sound recording, 580 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,759 Speaker 1: which is maybe a two technical way of saying, and 581 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: record companies and performers get nothing, absolutely zero. So writers 582 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 1: and publishers get paid from radio performance. It's a very 583 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:34,240 Speaker 1: very small, low single digit percentage of revenue that radio 584 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,879 Speaker 1: stations get and a very small fixed fee for non 585 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 1: commercial stations, but record companies get and performers get zero. 586 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 1: And of course there is a new legislation underway that 587 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 1: will hopefully remedy that, but it may not. And I 588 00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 1: know it wouldn't surprise you, Buzz, but it wouldn't surprise 589 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:07,320 Speaker 1: I don't think even a casual listener that the broadcaster's 590 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: lobby has been virulently against changing the exemption because in 591 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 1: all likelihood, at least in their view, it would cost 592 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:24,040 Speaker 1: them more than they are currently paying for the music 593 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,799 Speaker 1: that they play. By the way, if you were just 594 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:33,120 Speaker 1: a quick aside here on this point, businesses have, in 595 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,320 Speaker 1: accounting terms, a cost of goods sold. Right, it costs 596 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,000 Speaker 1: something to make the products that we buy and the 597 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 1: services that we consume. Radio's cost of goods sold is 598 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:57,839 Speaker 1: It's not zero, but it is lower than literally any 599 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,680 Speaker 1: other business that you can think of. It's lower than 600 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:06,960 Speaker 1: the software business. It's lower than the chemicals business. It's 601 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:13,440 Speaker 1: lower than the pharmaceutical business. It's lower than pretty much anything. Now, 602 00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:19,840 Speaker 1: radio certainly has other costs, right, rent, payroll, stuff like that, 603 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:26,880 Speaker 1: but radio pays almost nothing for the music that it plays. 604 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,200 Speaker 1: They do pay songwriters and music publishers. They do not 605 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:33,200 Speaker 1: pay anything in the United States, the world's largest radio 606 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:39,720 Speaker 1: market and the world's largest music market for the music 607 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: that they play. And I hope that I live long 608 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,920 Speaker 1: enough to see that change. It has been a jihad 609 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,760 Speaker 1: of mine for my entire working life. That just struck 610 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:57,880 Speaker 1: me as being inherently unfair. That maybe when you and 611 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:02,200 Speaker 1: I were very young and the record industry was just 612 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,920 Speaker 1: printing money from you know, the vinyl business and the 613 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:11,320 Speaker 1: CD business, Uh, that They didn't care so much about 614 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:18,799 Speaker 1: then about necessarily getting paid, but they sure do now, 615 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:24,879 Speaker 1: especially now that radio's influence has waned in the way 616 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:30,759 Speaker 1: that I believe it has. I don't know if you 617 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:32,880 Speaker 1: know what you're feeling. How do you feel about that? 618 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:38,800 Speaker 1: There's no doubt that it's it's waned. It still means 619 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:44,080 Speaker 1: a lot when it comes to certain great brands. You 620 00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:48,880 Speaker 1: mentioned Z one hundred earlier, Yeah, and there's there's others. 621 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:55,120 Speaker 1: But then when you get to midpack and below, it's 622 00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:59,440 Speaker 1: incredibly waned. And I'm deeply concerned about it as someone 623 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,080 Speaker 1: who came in out of the business who still loves 624 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:07,239 Speaker 1: the business. There's no millennial or gen Z strategy whatsoever. 625 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:13,960 Speaker 1: The commercial load problem has never been even seriously thought of, 626 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,680 Speaker 1: and so I mean there were too many commercials. Yeah, 627 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:24,280 Speaker 1: to tell somebody in the radio business, I have tried, Hello, testing, testing, 628 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:29,359 Speaker 1: I have tried. So I'm deeply concerned about it, and 629 00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:36,520 Speaker 1: I appreciate your explanation of it because it is complicated. 630 00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:41,160 Speaker 1: I know you have served and done work around the 631 00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,360 Speaker 1: you know, the copyright Royalty board. I did the same 632 00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 1: sort of on the side of the industry. Really didn't 633 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:56,120 Speaker 1: have to go into the the court if you will. 634 00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:01,480 Speaker 1: They accepted my deposition. Goodness saved you a couple of days, 635 00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:05,080 Speaker 1: it did, and you know it was it was the look. 636 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:10,160 Speaker 1: Localism and radio is an important attribute and still remains 637 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:17,400 Speaker 1: an important attribute, especially when you know difficult things happen 638 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:24,640 Speaker 1: in markets and communities. But I'm deeply concerned. So I 639 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,600 Speaker 1: have gone on the record and will continue to go 640 00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,840 Speaker 1: on the record with that, with that concern for sure. 641 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:35,160 Speaker 1: So I mean, I'm in I'm in front. I don't 642 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,920 Speaker 1: teach classes in the summer, you know, that's just my choice, 643 00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,799 Speaker 1: you know. But during the rest of the year, I'm 644 00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:49,839 Speaker 1: in front of rooms of young people, and Okay, when 645 00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,600 Speaker 1: I asked them if they listen to the radio, they 646 00:51:53,680 --> 00:52:02,319 Speaker 1: either give me a blank look or they say, yeah, 647 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:07,560 Speaker 1: you know, they listen. They listen to Pandora or when 648 00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:12,880 Speaker 1: they're in you know, mom or Dad's car, maybe Sirius XM, 649 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,640 Speaker 1: or perhaps the AMFM radio station that they grew up with, 650 00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:20,319 Speaker 1: but it wouldn't be their choice. By and large, now 651 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:25,160 Speaker 1: there are a handful of students who and other young 652 00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:29,360 Speaker 1: people who aren't students who do still listen to radio. 653 00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:33,800 Speaker 1: Look at it super convenient. Still, it's super super super convenient, 654 00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:43,279 Speaker 1: and radio pop radio in particular is still an important 655 00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:48,600 Speaker 1: factor in validating the biggest hits, right, would you agree? 656 00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:53,839 Speaker 1: I would agree, I would agree, and validates a good 657 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:58,160 Speaker 1: word because it's generally not the initial form of discovery. 658 00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:01,799 Speaker 1: It is a form of discovery, but really it is 659 00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:05,200 Speaker 1: more of a form of validation. I think that's well, 660 00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:12,920 Speaker 1: that's well put. So Larry, as we wind down here 661 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:20,440 Speaker 1: for our walk at the colorful Washington Square Park, I 662 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,560 Speaker 1: know you found him as awesome over there as oh 663 00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,160 Speaker 1: my god. Yeah, it runs pretty much around the year. 664 00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:31,080 Speaker 1: It's amazing. The smells too, Yes, a lot of weed 665 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:35,359 Speaker 1: in the park. Yeah, but there are flowers, other kinds 666 00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,880 Speaker 1: of plow Oh, yes, exactly. Yeah. So I know there's 667 00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,200 Speaker 1: some work you're doing on some boards. Can we talk 668 00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:46,280 Speaker 1: about that? Yes, I think it's exciting, it's it's so cool. 669 00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:50,879 Speaker 1: Thanks for asking. For the last couple of years, I've 670 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,360 Speaker 1: been on the board of the Newport Festival's Foundation, that 671 00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:59,360 Speaker 1: is the board of directors of the nonprofit that runs 672 00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:05,239 Speaker 1: the Newport Jazz Festival and the Newport Folk Festival, which 673 00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:11,280 Speaker 1: for me is a particular honor for a number of reasons. 674 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:17,160 Speaker 1: My parents went on one date that we know about. 675 00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:24,960 Speaker 1: They after they met. My mother passed just in the 676 00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,520 Speaker 1: last couple of years. My dad is still very much 677 00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:33,319 Speaker 1: with us. He's ninety and I hope listening. And they 678 00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,879 Speaker 1: went on a date to in Boston where they were from, 679 00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:43,719 Speaker 1: to Storyville, which was named for the New Orleans Storyville. 680 00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:47,400 Speaker 1: It was a club in Boston in Old Copley Plaza 681 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,279 Speaker 1: that was started by a young guy when he was 682 00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:58,640 Speaker 1: still at Boston University, George Ween. George went on to 683 00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:05,560 Speaker 1: found the the Newport Jazz Festival and later the Newport 684 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,400 Speaker 1: Folk Festival and by the way, for more information on 685 00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:13,480 Speaker 1: the Newport Jazz and Folk festivals. When George passed away, 686 00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:19,640 Speaker 1: justice past September, on my podcast, the Musonomics Podcast, we 687 00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:25,759 Speaker 1: did a really special episode about George and Newport and 688 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:30,399 Speaker 1: what it was about him that really had him kind 689 00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:35,239 Speaker 1: of right the map or like dig the well for 690 00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:40,840 Speaker 1: how the modern non classical summer music festival ought to 691 00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:45,200 Speaker 1: run and it still runs that way anyway, great and 692 00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:47,640 Speaker 1: by the way, a labor of love. On that episode, 693 00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:54,040 Speaker 1: it was thank you. So I went on the Newport 694 00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,479 Speaker 1: board a couple of years ago. I had a couple 695 00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:59,640 Speaker 1: of other friends who were on it. I had known 696 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:06,279 Speaker 1: George pretty much my whole adult life, and he had 697 00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:10,000 Speaker 1: become a really close family friend, and so it was 698 00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,040 Speaker 1: a great honor for me to be on that board 699 00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:15,959 Speaker 1: while George was still alive, along with by the way, 700 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,000 Speaker 1: my friend Michael Dorf, who just walked past us, you know, 701 00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:23,759 Speaker 1: forty five minutes ago. Michael's on that board too, And 702 00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:32,600 Speaker 1: and I'm looking forward to the Newport Folk Festival which 703 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,560 Speaker 1: is the third weekend in July, and the Jazz Festival, 704 00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,040 Speaker 1: which is the fourth weekend in July. So those are 705 00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:44,799 Speaker 1: now nonprofits, and they are they are run by just 706 00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:52,160 Speaker 1: an incredible organization. J Sweet the executive producer and head 707 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,200 Speaker 1: of the whole organization, which, by the way, is a 708 00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:58,719 Speaker 1: super skinny organization to produce these two events every year. 709 00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:03,000 Speaker 1: The way that they do is is a miracle. It's 710 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:06,760 Speaker 1: a modern miracle. So we have the new Portasen Folk Festivals. 711 00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,000 Speaker 1: And just this week I went on the board of 712 00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:16,920 Speaker 1: the Lewis Armstrong House Museum. Wow. This is the the 713 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:22,720 Speaker 1: house that Lewis and his wife lived in up until 714 00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:26,000 Speaker 1: the time he died. It is in Corona, Queens. It 715 00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:30,880 Speaker 1: is owned by the City of New York, and under 716 00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:36,920 Speaker 1: the auspices of Queen's College, but it houses the Lewis 717 00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:46,240 Speaker 1: Armstrong Archive. There is an unbelievably dedicated and also super 718 00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:50,960 Speaker 1: skinny staff that runs the Lewis Armstrong House Museum, led 719 00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:57,520 Speaker 1: by now you know, another just spectacularly talented and dedicated 720 00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:03,120 Speaker 1: director whose name is Richina Bain and she is now 721 00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:07,160 Speaker 1: i think in her second year as director. She's fabulous, 722 00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:12,240 Speaker 1: and coming up this fall. Right across the street from 723 00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:17,880 Speaker 1: the townhouse that Lewis lived in that houses the archive 724 00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:24,000 Speaker 1: is a spectacular new twenty two million dollar building that's 725 00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:27,320 Speaker 1: going to be an education and performance center right there, 726 00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:32,960 Speaker 1: part of the Lewis Armstrong House Museum that is for 727 00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:36,960 Speaker 1: the community and for everyone. It is the result of 728 00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:43,360 Speaker 1: a twenty year massive development project that is finally going 729 00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:47,960 Speaker 1: to see the light of day. Now I have a 730 00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:53,640 Speaker 1: family reason for wanting to have gotten involved in the 731 00:58:53,760 --> 00:59:00,520 Speaker 1: Armstrong House that became much more pointed to me over 732 00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:05,920 Speaker 1: this past year. And my father in law, Jerry Chasen, 733 00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:11,680 Speaker 1: who passed away at age ninety four in February, had 734 00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:15,200 Speaker 1: been the chairman of that board. And though Jerry was 735 00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:25,360 Speaker 1: a brilliant business person and a fantastic philanthropist and force 736 00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,320 Speaker 1: for good in the world, and was involved in many 737 00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:35,720 Speaker 1: organizations that the thing that he really cared most deeply about, 738 00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:40,840 Speaker 1: with all due respect to Newport, please forgive me Newport people, 739 00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:49,240 Speaker 1: was the Lewis Armstrong House Museum, and so to honor him, 740 00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:55,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to get more involved, and I'm now officially 741 00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:59,240 Speaker 1: more involved and will be for I hope a very 742 00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:05,439 Speaker 1: long time. That's awesome. Well, I will say, every time 743 01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:10,640 Speaker 1: I connect with you, I learn and I learn more 744 01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,240 Speaker 1: and I get excited about the things that you're excited about. 745 01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:19,280 Speaker 1: And I can't thank you enough for taking a walk 746 01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:25,360 Speaker 1: here today in the colorful Washington Square Park, Larry, thank 747 01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:28,600 Speaker 1: you for having me buzz and look at the future 748 01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,800 Speaker 1: is bright. You know, we're lucky to be living through 749 01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:39,320 Speaker 1: the era that we are now. Notwithstanding the individual complaints 750 01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:42,400 Speaker 1: and you know, the grievances that you know that many 751 01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:45,640 Speaker 1: people have, rightly or wrongly, we are lucky to be 752 01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:51,880 Speaker 1: living through this period of human history. And I do 753 01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:56,400 Speaker 1: think that the future is bright, in particular for people 754 01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:02,160 Speaker 1: who love and appreciate usick has a motivating force in 755 01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:07,520 Speaker 1: their life. Well put, thank you, Larry, taking a walk 756 01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:13,360 Speaker 1: with Buzznight is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 757 01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:14,680 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.