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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.

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Speaker 2: I holcome to Stepan Never Told You production of iHeartRadio,

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Speaker 2: and welcome to another classic. Today we are bringing back

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Speaker 2: a conversation we had with friend of the show, Margaret Kiljoy,

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Speaker 2: who came on our show and we talked about all

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Speaker 2: kinds of things around intersectional feminism. And both Samantha and

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Speaker 2: I have been on margaret show. So if you haven't

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Speaker 2: heard us over there, go check that out. If you

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Speaker 2: haven't listened to Margaret's show, go check it out. We're

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Speaker 2: hoping to get Margaret on the show soon to talk

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Speaker 2: about one of her books.

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Speaker 3: He's got a couple of books. Yeah, she's busy.

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Speaker 2: Oh, all of our friends are so cool and they're

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Speaker 2: so busy. Yes, but in the meantime, please enjoy this

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Speaker 2: classic episode.

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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

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Speaker 2: I don't come to Steffan Never Told Your protection of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 4: And today we are so excited because we get to

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Speaker 4: have true friends of the show. Like I've already claimed

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Speaker 4: her as one of my best friends. I said this

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Speaker 4: a while ago.

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Speaker 1: Margaret kill Joy to the show.

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Speaker 3: Yay, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 4: I've tried to do like songs and such and people

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Speaker 4: don't like it, but I still do it.

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Speaker 1: It's okay, all.

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Speaker 3: Right, don't like it.

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Speaker 4: So then I got that you're actually a musician, so

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Speaker 4: I feel like this is better coming from you.

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Speaker 1: But yes, we do have.

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Speaker 4: The wonderful Margaret Kiljoy on our show.

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Speaker 1: Can you introduce yourself for our listeners?

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Speaker 3: Sure?

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Speaker 5: My name is Margaret Kiljoy. I use she or they

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Speaker 5: pronounce and I am I'm a podcaster and an author,

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Speaker 5: and I guess the aforementioned musician. I have another iHeartRadio

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Speaker 5: podcast called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, where you

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Speaker 5: might have heard Samantha talking in back in the Utopian

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Speaker 5: past before the fall of rov Wade about what might

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Speaker 5: happen after the fall of Rovy Wade.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it was one of those that we had to

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Speaker 4: come back very quickly to be like, all right, we

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Speaker 4: have to redo somethings.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And we knew it going into it.

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Speaker 5: We were like, this might sound utopian and outdated by

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Speaker 5: the time you hear it, and it was.

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Speaker 1: It was.

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Speaker 4: But I loved what you had brought because it was

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Speaker 4: such a hopeful turn and even though it was really sad,

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Speaker 4: come back to revisit it.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, I.

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Speaker 4: Was like at least there's a spotlight, like a nice

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Speaker 4: light at the end of that conversation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, that's true.

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Speaker 5: There is a lot of hope to accidentally dive into that.

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Speaker 5: There's a lot of hope for what people can do

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Speaker 5: even when things aren't strictly legal. There's and we have

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Speaker 5: a lot We've come a long way in terms of

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Speaker 5: like what we can do in a post Roe v.

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Speaker 5: Wade world than what we had access to in a

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Speaker 5: pre ro v Wade world.

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Speaker 4: So right, And for the listeners who may not know

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Speaker 4: because I've mentioned it before, but yes, I got to

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Speaker 4: be a guest with Margaret when we talked about the

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Speaker 4: Jaine Collective and the many people behind I guess, the

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Speaker 4: rebelliousness of going against the anti abortion people and what

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Speaker 4: it looked like before abortion was legal at that time,

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Speaker 4: which we were back to square one. But it was

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Speaker 4: some amazing stories and I learned a lot. So if

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Speaker 4: you haven't checked that out, you really should go and

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Speaker 4: check it out. But we're not necessarily here talking about that, No,

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Speaker 4: we're talking about the media. Yeah, you have so many

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Speaker 4: titles under your belt, Margaret, and I looked you up

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Speaker 4: on the interwebs, which you're everywhere you're I'm like, oh

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Speaker 4: my god, you're so famous with that, but it has

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Speaker 4: so many titles between the writer, musician, anarchist, activist, podcaster.

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Speaker 1: You are out.

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Speaker 4: There doing some things and right now you're actually not

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Speaker 4: near your home.

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Speaker 3: Correct, that's true.

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Speaker 5: I'm on book tour while I'm on pre book tour,

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Speaker 5: and I decided to start my book tour on the

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Speaker 5: West Coast. I live on the East Coast, so I

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Speaker 5: drove out to the West Coast and in a couple

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Speaker 5: of weeks. I don't know when this will drop, but

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Speaker 5: I will be on book tour starting September twentieth talking

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Speaker 5: about my new short story collection book.

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Speaker 2: Oh can you tell us about that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I have a book out coming out called we

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Speaker 5: Won't Be Here Tomorrow and Other Stories that comes out

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Speaker 5: from Akpress, and it's a collection of well, I've been

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Speaker 5: writing short fiction for a long time, and I've been

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Speaker 5: writing it at I guess I would say a professional

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Speaker 5: level for a little while now, and so this is

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Speaker 5: my first collection of the stories that have been published

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Speaker 5: in various magazines and science fiction anthologies and things like that,

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Speaker 5: and also some stories that were previous only only available

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Speaker 5: to I used to have a personal Patreon, and I

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Speaker 5: had stories that were only available to my patrons, but.

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Speaker 3: Now they will be available to everyone.

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Speaker 5: And I write a lot of queer punk, radical protagonists

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Speaker 5: who run around and feed men too mermaids and squat

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Speaker 5: buildings and try to stop bad things and all of

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Speaker 5: that live in the apocalypse.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. And so yeah, so that comes out soon.

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Speaker 3: That sounds great.

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Speaker 1: Future book club pic. I know, So we do book clubs,

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Speaker 1: So now we're going to bring your books. And I

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Speaker 1: know you also did horror as well.

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Speaker 3: Am I wrong?

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Speaker 4: Did I just pick that us aware because we're a

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Speaker 4: huge fan and it's coming to the season.

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Speaker 5: Oh okay, yeah, No, It's funny because I it's kind

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Speaker 5: of by accident that I started writing horror, because I

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Speaker 5: basically I was like, I wrote these novellas. I have

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Speaker 5: this series of two novellas that Danielle Kine series, and

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Speaker 5: basically I was like, oh, okay, I'll do this thing

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Speaker 5: set in basically now, but there will be demons or magic,

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Speaker 5: you know, And then I'm like, oh, and if there's magic,

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Speaker 5: it's hard because you know, most of the time, I

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Speaker 5: think Arben fantasy often way too much, is like and

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Speaker 5: then the elevators are just run by magic instead of

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Speaker 5: you know, electricity or whatever, and that's not very interesting.

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Speaker 5: I think magic has a lot to do with power,

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Speaker 5: and I think that when you introduce incredibly skewed power

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Speaker 5: dynamics into the real world, you end up with things

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Speaker 5: that are horrific. And so I didn't set out to

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Speaker 5: write the first book is called The Lamble Slaughter of

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Speaker 5: the Lion, which I suppose does sound like a title

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Speaker 5: of a horror thing. Yeah, but I actually just set

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Speaker 5: it out to be like kind of adventure. And then

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Speaker 5: I was like and the publisher was like, this is

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Speaker 5: this is horror, and I was like, oh, okay, I

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Speaker 5: guess that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: I'm very squeamish.

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Speaker 5: So and you know, I used to live alone in

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Speaker 5: a van, and then before that, and then after that,

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Speaker 5: I lived alone in a cabin.

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Speaker 3: In the woods and all of this stuff.

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Speaker 5: So I avoided horror for a very long time because

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Speaker 5: it didn't fit my lifestyle. So but I can read

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Speaker 5: it and I can write it, although I have also

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Speaker 5: in myself nightmares with my own before.

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Speaker 4: Oh that's a testament right there. If you can give

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Speaker 4: yourself nightmares when you're writing in a good way.

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Speaker 1: Then you know you're doing it right. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well that's awesome. Congratulations, because writing a book is

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Speaker 2: no small thing.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's true. Yeah, thank you.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate you've done it multiple times.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and sometimes they get slightly longer than the other ones. Actually,

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Speaker 5: the longest books I've ever written. I can't I'm legally

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Speaker 5: not allowed to say that I wrote because they're romance novels.

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Speaker 3: I ghost wrote. Oh for a while, I made.

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Speaker 5: My living ghostwriting trashy heterosexual romance novels. And it was like,

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Speaker 5: right after I came out, they were like, can you

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Speaker 5: write this male protagonist stuff?

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Speaker 3: That is fascinating?

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 3: At first I was like, it's kind of annoyed. I

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Speaker 3: just came out.

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Speaker 5: But then I was like, well, it kind of makes

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Speaker 5: sense because male protagonist romance novels are still written for

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Speaker 5: a woman audience, right, you know, And so I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 5: I think I can straddle this divide better than some

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Speaker 5: other people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, you it's very obvious.

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Speaker 4: And we've talked about this before, and we're going off subject,

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Speaker 4: but before we go back to the subject. But how

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Speaker 4: oftentimes when you see romance and it has specific language,

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Speaker 4: You're like, this is definitely a woman who wrote this

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Speaker 4: or someone who are understands that gender level of this

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Speaker 4: is a male gaze. This is a female gaze. Especially

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Speaker 4: when it comes to a heteronormative conversations. There's very big differences,

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Speaker 4: and so it seems very obvious like someone understands, someone

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Speaker 4: really understands what we're talking about here, and it's not

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Speaker 4: your cismel dude doing this.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, which is why I think that like the Nicholas

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Speaker 5: Sparks is of the world and stuff are so successful.

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Speaker 5: Is because if you if you kind of figure out

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Speaker 5: how to do that while still being like a man

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Speaker 5: or presenting as a man or I don't know anything

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Speaker 5: my Nicholas Sparks as a person, you know, I don't

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Speaker 5: know whether he's ghost written or not.

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Speaker 1: I have my suspicions but controversy.

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Speaker 5: But but you know, if you can, if you can

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Speaker 5: tap into that, it's a it's a powerful market. I mean,

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Speaker 5: that's why I got Hi right. I didn't go straight

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Speaker 5: Nicholas Sparks.

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Speaker 3: But this is about what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: You're heard to hear, Firshell just kidding U.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, coming back to what we're talking about and Honestly,

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Speaker 4: this is kind of all links because this is kind

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Speaker 4: of how we look at different entertainment that seems just

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Speaker 4: so blase. And we've talked about romance and how it does,

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Speaker 4: how it is affected by gender stereotypes or those who

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Speaker 4: have a bias, what is placed by misogyny, Like our

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Speaker 4: understanding of romance is laid down by a foundation of

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Speaker 4: misogynistic ideals based by the patriarchy.

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Speaker 1: Like this is about the power.

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Speaker 4: And I know again people are gonna be like, you're reaching,

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Speaker 4: but we talked about how this really does affect uh,

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Speaker 4: the society at large, and this is kind of your forte.

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Speaker 4: You've come under this conversation. You have identified as a

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Speaker 4: feminist for a long time now. I believe before you

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Speaker 4: came out you were already Yeah, feminism is real, is effective.

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Speaker 4: Can you kind of talk about your journey with feminism?

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Speaker 3: Okay? But can I tangent to talk about romance a

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Speaker 3: little bit more?

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Speaker 1: Really?

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Speaker 3: Yes? And I'll type that together.

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Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, yeah, when you're talking about the tropes and

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Speaker 5: the stereotypes that bleed into it. Since I wrote for

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Speaker 5: someone else, they told me these rules, and so I

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Speaker 5: can And I.

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Speaker 3: Don't know whether they're like secret or not.

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Speaker 5: I mean I can I know they're not in my nda,

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Speaker 5: I know I can say them. But one the protagonist

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Speaker 5: has to be over six feet tall. I was told

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Speaker 5: to write an average size professional football player, so he

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Speaker 5: was five foot ten and they were like, uh no,

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Speaker 5: he has to be at least six feet tall. He

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Speaker 5: has to be dominant in every sexual situation. And he

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Speaker 5: also which was awkward and one of the ones I

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Speaker 5: because he was injured, which actually was kind of fun

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Speaker 5: to write.

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Speaker 4: Did he get calls himself more injury because he had

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Speaker 4: to be dominant no matter, because.

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Speaker 5: Well I don't know the age of your all his

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Speaker 5: usual audience, but he managed to become dominant verbally yeah, sosally.

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Speaker 5: But and there were just like so many of these

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Speaker 5: weird rules and like, and some of them actually really

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Speaker 5: annoyed me, right because you know, I wrote, you know,

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Speaker 5: in one of these books, he's he's dating a mom, right,

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Speaker 5: and I wrote that he was like into her stretch marks,

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Speaker 5: and they were like, no, no, no, no, she doesn't have

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Speaker 5: stretch marks, And I'm.

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Speaker 3: Like, ohare audience right?

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Speaker 5: I thought the point of this was to make these

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Speaker 5: like middle aged moms feel really good right, you know,

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Speaker 5: and so so that got edited out, and there's all

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Speaker 5: of these things like that, and then it gets into

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Speaker 5: like real specific stuff around like the way that you

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Speaker 5: describe like the bad woman as the following sexual acts

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Speaker 5: and the good woman is the following.

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Speaker 3: It's real.

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Speaker 5: It's in some ways I feel dirtier about having written

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Speaker 5: that than like anything else I've done.

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Speaker 3: But I needed the money.

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Speaker 5: And I like tried my hardest to make them passibly

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Speaker 5: feminist and passibly you know, like like write. And there

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Speaker 5: were like, weren't gay characters in the outlines they give me,

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Speaker 5: And I'd be like, whatever, he can have a gay

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Speaker 5: best friend.

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Speaker 3: I don't care, you know.

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Speaker 5: And then I'm like, oh my god, I'm at the

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Speaker 5: point where I'm like, oh a gay best friend.

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Speaker 3: That's edgy of me.

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Speaker 5: And I'm like, I think I understand nineties writers better now,

261
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Speaker 5: you know. This is the best that they were like

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Speaker 5: allowed to do. Right, Okay, your question was about my

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Speaker 5: journey into Yes, yeah, I'm sorry. I was really excited

264
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Speaker 5: because I don't thin get to talk about romance novel

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Speaker 5: as much.

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Speaker 4: We can do a whole section all that, because, like

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Speaker 4: I said, we've did I think we did a two

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Speaker 4: parter because we were.

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Speaker 5: So I want to go back and listen to that,

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Speaker 5: because I might have also just told you all things

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Speaker 5: you already know.

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Speaker 4: Well, you went to a whole different we went down

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Speaker 4: a whole different route.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes I think about trying to write some really intentionally now,

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Speaker 5: but life is very short. So you know, I grew

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Speaker 5: up being told I was a boy, right, And I

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Speaker 5: have these like early memories of I wish I was

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Speaker 5: a girl, But all of the early presentations I saw.

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Speaker 5: I grew up in the eighties and nineties, and all

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Speaker 5: of the early presentations of trans women I saw were

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Speaker 5: very monstrous, right.

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Speaker 3: They were the butt of jokes.

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Speaker 5: Or they were to be pitied, or they were like

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Speaker 5: they had destroyed themselves or you know, and I just

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Speaker 5: I have these very early memories of being like I

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Speaker 5: wish I was a girl, but I cannot become a girl.

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Speaker 5: I cannot become a trans woman. That is not is

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Speaker 5: better to be a boy than to be one of

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Speaker 5: these pitable creatures. And you know, and I held on

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Speaker 5: too that for a very long time. And it was

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Speaker 5: very confusing, right because I kept dating gay girls and

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Speaker 5: we would all be confused, you know, we'd be like,

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Speaker 5: why am I attracted to you and be like, I

295
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:12,600
Speaker 5: don't know. I honestly couldn't tell you, and you know,

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Speaker 5: and it's kind of this like thing I've talked to.

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Speaker 3: Other trans women and other trans folks.

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Speaker 5: About this, where like kind of like on some subconscious level,

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Speaker 5: people know this when they even don't know this, you know,

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Speaker 5: and it's not just about like who I would date

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Speaker 5: or whatever, although it also be you go the other

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Speaker 5: way and did very confused straight girls who were like,

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Speaker 5: what this.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't work right?

305
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Speaker 5: But I got and I also got really into LGBT

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Speaker 5: stuff as my first politics.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 5: I joined the Gay Straight Alliance of Maryland when.

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Speaker 3: I grew up.

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Speaker 5: And actually, one thing I think that people don't realize

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Speaker 5: is that the gay straight Alliances of the nineties, the

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Speaker 5: reason they were gay straight alliances was plausible deniability, because

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Speaker 5: if you don't want to come out, you can still,

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Speaker 5: you know, join organizations. And the way that we started

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Speaker 5: Gay Straight Alliance in my school was really funny. I

316
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Speaker 5: had these two there were these two teachers who in

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Speaker 5: retrospect were very obviously lesbians, not dating each other, but

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Speaker 5: you know, one of them had a hyphenated last name,

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Speaker 5: and one of them was the super butch gym teacher,

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Speaker 5: and they just kind of cornered me in the hallway

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Speaker 5: one day before school started and they were like, did

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Speaker 5: you know that teachers aren't allowed to start student groups?

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Speaker 3: And I was like huh. And they were like, here's.

324
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Speaker 5: A clipboard with a forum that's already filled out to

325
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Speaker 5: start against straight alliance. Do you want to start a

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Speaker 5: gainst straight Alliance? And I was like I do. I

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Speaker 5: do want to start a gay straight alliance because they

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Speaker 5: knew that I was involved in regional Gay Straight Alliance

329
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Speaker 5: politics and no one was out in our gay straight Alliance,

330
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Speaker 5: and in retrospect, we were all almost all queer, and

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Speaker 5: the random straight guys very actively politically engaged in leftist politics. Now,

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Speaker 5: so so yeah, I kind of, you know, I was like, okay, well,

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Speaker 5: I'm really interested in feminism. My oldest sister is a

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Speaker 5: very active feminist who who currently does clinic escorting, and

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00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,320
Speaker 5: you know, it's kind of my hero around a lot

336
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Speaker 5: of that stuff still, and so this is always something

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Speaker 5: I was interested in, and I always as this very

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Speaker 5: ally position, even though on some level I was like, well,

339
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Speaker 5: what is what's going on here? Like why why do

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Speaker 5: all I care about is like women's issues and gay issues,

341
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Speaker 5: you know, And then slowly the category of what counts

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Speaker 5: as trends started to expand in that people who don't

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Speaker 5: necessarily medically transition, or if they do, like quote medically transition,

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Speaker 5: it's you know, not to necessarily the same degree. It's

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Speaker 5: like it's no longer like you become a woman when

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Speaker 5: you like undergo surgery. Right, you know, I rarely see

347
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,360
Speaker 5: people talk about being like, oh, I'm pre op MDF

348
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Speaker 5: or whatever. That is terminology that I'm not trying to

349
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Speaker 5: shame anyone who uses any terminology. I don't care, but

350
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Speaker 5: it is like terminology that no longer seems to be

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Speaker 5: the dominant discourse around it. And you know, and the

352
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Speaker 5: more I came to understand this work that feminism, feminism

353
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,359
Speaker 5: has done for a very long time to draw the

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Speaker 5: distinction between sex and gender and use that to understand

355
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Speaker 5: both sex and gender based oppression, that lens allowed people

356
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Speaker 5: to kind of realize that, I mean, basically, if I

357
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Speaker 5: am a trans woman, I'm a trans woman already rather

358
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Speaker 5: than like waiting to become.

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Speaker 3: A trans woman.

360
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Speaker 5: And I don't personally experience much in the way of

361
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Speaker 5: body dysphoria, dysmorphia, and so I don't have a strong

362
00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,920
Speaker 5: desire to quote unquote like medically transition or surgically transition

363
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,480
Speaker 5: or whatever language you know people want to use.

364
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Speaker 3: But I have a very strong desire to socially transition.

365
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Speaker 5: And so when that became available to me, when that

366
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,359
Speaker 5: was included under the umbrella of trans it's like the

367
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,680
Speaker 5: umbrella of trans expanded to include me. For a while,

368
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Speaker 5: I identified as like a transvestite, you know, which is

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Speaker 5: not a word that people tend to use right now.

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Speaker 3: But I was like, oh, I'm just a cross dresser.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 5: It's like all of this when I'm like, oh, I

373
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:09,800
Speaker 5: was a CIS boy. I was like a cist boy

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Speaker 5: where I took the name Margaret and published books under

375
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,880
Speaker 5: the name Margaret and like war women's clothing almost exclusively.

376
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,119
Speaker 5: But but yeah, it kind of expanded to include me.

377
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,720
Speaker 5: And I think that there's a lot of people who

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00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,160
Speaker 5: that happened to. And then the other really big important

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00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,880
Speaker 5: thing is that it stopped being perceived as monstrous by

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00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,920
Speaker 5: a large trunk of society. Now things have swung back

381
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,440
Speaker 5: the other way, and you know, I feel a little

382
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,200
Speaker 5: bit like I'm waiting in my castle for the pitchforks

383
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:47,119
Speaker 5: and torches to show up outside these days, especially living

384
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Speaker 5: rural like I do.

385
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,639
Speaker 3: But you know, I don't know.

386
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,439
Speaker 5: That's how I you know, And and it leaves me

387
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,560
Speaker 5: in this funny situation where I like, do I look

388
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 5: back and perceive my childhood as a girlhood, you know,

389
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:01,920
Speaker 5: or do I per see it, perceive it as a boyhood,

390
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,080
Speaker 5: or do I just perceive it as a childhood. And

391
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,600
Speaker 5: the ways I feel about that changed different times. It

392
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 5: helps that, you know. Sometimes, I like, by the end

393
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,439
Speaker 5: of high school, like my closest group of friends was

394
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 5: just like the girls, and it was like the girls

395
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,520
Speaker 5: and then me, I'm here, you know, and I wasn't

396
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,120
Speaker 5: dating any of them, and we'd sit around and paint

397
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Speaker 5: her nails and like skip gym class to sit in

398
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,320
Speaker 5: the corner and talk about goth bands or whatever, you know.

399
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,399
Speaker 5: And I'm still friends with some of those people. One

400
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,440
Speaker 5: of my best friends is still from that time. It

401
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 5: was one of the people who really encouraged me to

402
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,719
Speaker 5: come out. I remember I was like thirty and I

403
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,160
Speaker 5: was like, oh, it was too late. And someone I'd

404
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,000
Speaker 5: known since I was like thirteen, was like, why is

405
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:40,960
Speaker 5: it too late, and I'm like, I don't know because

406
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,800
Speaker 5: no one will believe me. And she's like does that matter,

407
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:48,440
Speaker 5: and I'm like, I guess it doesn't, you know. And

408
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,160
Speaker 5: now I'm kind of rambling. But some people will believe

409
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:54,720
Speaker 5: me and some people won't. And you know, it's like

410
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,880
Speaker 5: I don't pass right, but I don't try to. It's

411
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:00,560
Speaker 5: possible that if I transition when I was younger, I

412
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 5: would have put more work into that, but as it is,

413
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:08,440
Speaker 5: and then and then that's the the beautiful, the horrible thing,

414
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,320
Speaker 5: right as you realize this, like no one.

415
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,440
Speaker 3: Passes for under sys feminine standards.

416
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 5: You know, it's like this is feminine beauty standards hurt everybody,

417
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,439
Speaker 5: and so so now it's just like, well, you know,

418
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,320
Speaker 5: I walk through the world and people perceive me largely

419
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:26,680
Speaker 5: as a man in a dress. And that's fine. I mean,

420
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,159
Speaker 5: it's it's fine when it's fine, it's not fine when

421
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 5: it's not fine. But fortunately I'm also a scary punk,

422
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,119
Speaker 5: so for the most part, people don't mess with me.

423
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 5: A lot of people say things behind my back, but

424
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,920
Speaker 5: not to my face because I also often walk around

425
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 5: with the very large knife.

426
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,440
Speaker 1: That'll do it, So that'll do it.

427
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 3: I like it.

428
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,359
Speaker 1: I think that's the lesson to be told very knife.

429
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:58,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean where it's legal, it is a

430
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 5: useful visual indicator.

431
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,439
Speaker 3: Hey, it's not worth it. It's just not worth it.

432
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,480
Speaker 1: Let's not start. Yeah. I love that.

433
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,119
Speaker 4: I love that conversation about being on a spectrum. I

434
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 4: think we talk about that a lot on the show.

435
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 4: When it comes to gender.

436
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 1: It's not binary. It is.

437
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,479
Speaker 4: It is a spectrum, and it is fluid, and it

438
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,639
Speaker 4: should be. It doesn't make sense that it's not. And

439
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,199
Speaker 4: the idea that it has to be in order to

440
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 4: fit a standard, it's absurd. It is when you really

441
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,400
Speaker 4: kind of come down on the same thing with love

442
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 4: and relationships and understanding that this is a fluid and

443
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 4: why wouldn't it be if it's emotion, if it's not gender,

444
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 4: but necessarily but like about feelings and who you love

445
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 4: and who, why wouldn't it be the person that you

446
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 4: connect to. That makes the most sense because at the

447
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,919
Speaker 4: very least it's honest, and then the very most is

448
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 4: happiness and that's something that we should strive for in

449
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 4: individual individual lives and just for happiness. Again, Yeah, it

450
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 4: has nothing to do with everybody else. It has everything

451
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 4: to do with who you are and coming out to

452
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 4: whether it's with your gender whatever it is, or coming

453
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 4: out and being independent in their political stance. Like that's

454
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 4: even a big conversation understanding that it's for you and

455
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,399
Speaker 4: that at any point in time, things change, circumstances change,

456
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 4: events change, and whatever that might be, it doesn't affect

457
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 4: anyone else, so why should you be bothered by it?

458
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 4: That's such a bigger conversation. And again, yeah, this goes

459
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 4: back to what we were talking about with romance novels.

460
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 4: This is like this layout that's existed for years and

461
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 4: years and years and it's not really helpful, and though

462
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 4: people have accepted it, there's no reason to remain in

463
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 4: that habit. I love because when you talk about what

464
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 4: you are going through and you're coming out and what

465
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 4: that looks like for you coming out as trans, but

466
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 4: not only that, realizing the inner person of who you

467
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 4: are has always been there. So whether it's your political stance,

468
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 4: whether it's understanding feminism, whether it's calling your off an anarchist,

469
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 4: which I want to come back to because I still

470
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 4: need an understanding of that for myself. Who understands the

471
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 4: binary liberal and conservative like That's what I know because

472
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 4: my parents throw it in my face often. Yeah, but

473
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 4: all this is a platform for you. Like the reasons

474
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 4: that you are writing books, the reason that you were

475
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 4: in a band, the reason that you are in a

476
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 4: podcast kind of has everything to do with these foundations. Yes,

477
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 4: that was a question that I did in reference as

478
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 4: a question can you kind of expound upon that?

479
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 3: Yeah?

480
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 5: When I was younger and I was like, I want

481
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 5: to do art, and I was like what kind of art?

482
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 3: And I was like, I don't know. And I was like,

483
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 3: are you any good at any of it?

484
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 4: No?

485
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 3: And I'm like, well, what am I going to do?

486
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:39,919
Speaker 2: You know?

487
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 3: And I I tried. I was like, I'm going to.

488
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 5: Learn how to paint, and I'm I'm okay painting, but

489
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 5: no one's gonna that's not my career path.

490
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 3: And you know, and writing more than.

491
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 5: Anything else, writing fiction was something that was more interested

492
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 5: and I asad when I was younger to write poetry,

493
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 5: and I aspire to become good enough to go back

494
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 5: to writing poetry, but I don't write much of it

495
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 5: right now. And so I started kind of, yeah, I

496
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 5: like started doing all of these things and slowly expanding

497
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 5: the list of things that I do the number of

498
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 5: plates I have spent in unfortunately, and usually what I

499
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 5: do is if I have something I want to say,

500
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 5: I think about what the best medium to say that is,

501
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 5: and then go out and try and say it in

502
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 5: that way. You know, there's certain things, certain ideas that

503
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 5: come across in different ways better. And for example, I

504
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 5: think that music is a really good way to put

505
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 5: someone in an emotional space or put yourself in an

506
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 5: emotional space. It's not a particularly good way to be pedantic.

507
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 5: It's not a very good way to teach someone something.

508
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 5: It's not a very good way to express complex political

509
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 5: ideas or interpersonal ideas.

510
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 3: However, it's not terrible at those things.

511
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 5: I think that Riot Girl has shown us, and arcopunk

512
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 5: and hip hop and a lot of different very direct

513
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 5: forms of communication have come through from music, right, But

514
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 5: overall I tend to use it when I have something

515
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 5: sort of more emotional to say, and then if I

516
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 5: have something cultural to say, I often write it in

517
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 5: fiction about like how can people interact with each other? Right,

518
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 5: Because a lot of my political ideas they're a little

519
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 5: bit less about, like and here's how the legislative branch

520
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 5: or in my case, it would be like, here's how

521
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 5: the anarchist federation, you know, disseminates goods across the different

522
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 5: collectives that control the work around cooperatives of you know,

523
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 5: these areas or whatever, right, which would be like the

524
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,479
Speaker 5: political or economic structure of anarchism as is sort of

525
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 5: understood in the twentieth century at least context. But I'm

526
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 5: much more interested in for me to use anarchism as

527
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 5: the example, because that's what I'm more familiar with. Ways

528
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 5: of relating to each other, ways of creating cultures of

529
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 5: consent and consensus is what's interesting to me. So I

530
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 5: like writing characters interacting with each other more than I

531
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 5: like writing nonfiction, because if I was writing nonfiction, it

532
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 5: would just be like, we should be consensual in our

533
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 5: relationships with each other, you know, And it's much easier

534
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 5: to just like, uh, draw that right, and you can

535
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 5: tell and then you can get into the fun stuff,

536
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 5: like like what does a romance novel look like in

537
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 5: a you know, culture of consent, where like, even if

538
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 5: it's a monogamous relationship, it's monogamous in the context of

539
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 5: polyamory as available to these characters, but they choose monogamy

540
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 5: what does that look like? What does it look like

541
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 5: to consent to that? You know, And in this case,

542
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 5: I'm actually literally quoting Ursula like Gwin is my probably

543
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 5: my main role model of an author, and actually wrote

544
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 5: specifically about that in this book called The Dispossessed about like,

545
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 5: you know, these characters who could absolutely it's even the

546
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 5: norm to be polyamorous, they choose to be committed to

547
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 5: each other and it creates this type of romance that

548
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 5: you're not going to run across. Even though it's a

549
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 5: monogamous relationship, it doesn't it doesn't look like what the

550
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 5: monogamous relationships we get presented with are. So that's why

551
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 5: I like writing fiction. And then with podcasts, you know,

552
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 5: I mean it was different. I have one podcast called

553
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 5: Live Like the World's Dyeing, which is a preparedness podcast,

554
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 5: And my stated goal here is to take preparedness culture

555
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 5: away from the right wing because this individualistic everyone hide

556
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 5: in their bunker and stockpile AMMO and food things is nonsensical.

557
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 3: It'll get everyone killed, it won't.

558
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 5: Stop the crisis of the world, and it won't even

559
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 5: help those individuals live very long because unless all of

560
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 5: them are surgeons and have another one around. They're not

561
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 5: going to be able to do anything when they're pendex bursts.

562
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 5: And what I want to be able to communicate to

563
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 5: people is that society is what creates safety, and society

564
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,959
Speaker 5: is what allows us to live full and happy and

565
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 5: free lives. Right because freedom, as I understand it, is

566
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 5: not something that exists in a vacuum. Freedom is a

567
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 5: relationship between people. Freedom is something that we give one another.

568
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 5: And so to be totally alone, I'm not free because

569
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 5: I can't do everything I want to do. All I

570
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 5: can do is try not to die if I'm just

571
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 5: totally alone. The only way in which freedom becomes a

572
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 5: liberty is if you're rich as hell, because then you

573
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 5: can hire everyone to do everything for you, so you're

574
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 5: still not actually alone doing things. You're just making all

575
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 5: the decisions yourself. Anyway, Okay, So if I want to

576
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 5: get across that idea, apparently what I do is come

577
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,719
Speaker 5: out of your podcast and say it. But in general,

578
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,719
Speaker 5: what I do is, you know, I run this podcast

579
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 5: where I interview people about compost or I interview people

580
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 5: about you know, community gardens or you know, activist modes

581
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 5: that are working for them or whatever.

582
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 3: And then the other one that I do.

583
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 5: Is called cool People did cool stuff, And it's how

584
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 5: I try to show people that we can have agency

585
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 5: and that we can, you know, because we keep getting

586
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 5: told by society that we don't have agency, that we

587
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 5: can't do what we want. We have to appeal to

588
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 5: other people in power to get things done, and that

589
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 5: is my work as an anarchist. I believe in responsibility

590
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 5: and freedom as the two sort of core concepts, and

591
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 5: so my work is to try to help people understand

592
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 5: we can have agency. And here are all these people

593
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 5: in the past who have taken agency over bad situations,

594
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 5: and they don't always win, right, Unfortunately, they often don't win.

595
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 5: But winning and losing is a really weird concept when

596
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 5: we're mortal, because like, I don't know the difference between

597
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 5: dying trying to make things better or dying in a

598
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 5: world that didn't make things better. I'm still dying, you know, Like,

599
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 5: like we can't have dying be a massive negative in

600
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 5: our lives because we're stuck with it. You know that's

601
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 5: going to happen, And so I just I want to

602
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 5: so if I want to try and get across this

603
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 5: concept of agency, that is the other format I use

604
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 5: for it, and I don't know. I just love all

605
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 5: of the different way all of these different formats work,

606
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 5: and I don't do all of them, right, There's so

607
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 5: many good ideas that are just not you know, I

608
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 5: probably won't write a like.

609
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 3: I do write nonfiction.

610
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 5: Actually, now that I say that, I like, as soon

611
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 5: as I start saying that, I'm like, no, but I

612
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 5: want to do everything.

613
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: I was going to say, you do a lot of things.

614
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I get really sad.

615
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 5: I was watching I was rewatching The Hobbit, which I

616
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 5: like more than almost anyone I know. Yeah, and I

617
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 5: was just like thinking about the elves being like, man,

618
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 5: if I was an elf, i'd be like for twenty years,

619
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna be a blacksmith.

620
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna make swords for ten twenty years. Oh, okay,

621
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 3: that's done, all right. Now I'm gonna write poetry for

622
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 3: twenty years.

623
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 5: Like now I'm going to go and like do childcare

624
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 5: for my friends for twenty you know, just specialize in

625
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 5: all these different things anyway, That's okay. Yeah, I love it.

626
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: I get it.

627
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: Samantha's already mentioned it, and you've alluded to it a lot.

628
00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: Can you explain what being an anarchist is an what

629
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 2: you think that has to do with feminism?

630
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 3: Sure, so, I understand.

631
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 5: Anarchism is two separate things that are related, and one

632
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 5: is a sort of ideological movement that came out of

633
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 5: European socialism, and it actually pre dates Marxism and a

634
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 5: lot of the other very specific isms within socialism. It

635
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 5: was basically people who were like, well, the state and

636
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 5: capitalism are bad. They are both oppressive forces, and we

637
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 5: should do without them, and we should do things as communities.

638
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 5: And then the sort of are like sub sects that

639
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,239
Speaker 5: come up within that ideological position that was originally kind

640
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 5: of mid nineteenth century eighteen forties or so. There's like

641
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 5: mutualist anarchism, which still uses markets and banks, but they're

642
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 5: like people's banks, and there's no ability to maintain capital

643
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 5: and wield it against other people, versus like a communalist

644
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 5: or a communist anarchism, which are not the same but

645
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 5: are like much more what people imagine of like leftism,

646
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 5: where we all like kind of get together and share.

647
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 5: And it was positioned within the sort of ideological framework

648
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 5: of socialism, which is the general overall capitalis shouldn't run everything,

649
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 5: and overall like society should run things instead, right, Like

650
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 5: the who owns the means of production is the big thing?

651
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 5: Like who owns the factories? Is it the people who

652
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 5: own the factories? Is it the workers who own the factories,

653
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 5: et cetera. And so that is the anarchist sort of

654
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 5: tradition that I come from, and anarchists have are kind

655
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 5: of the most I would claim, probably the most misunderstood

656
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 5: of these different positions because originally we kind of had

657
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 5: this the stereotype of where the people who like throw

658
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 5: bombs and kill kings. I am not embarrassed the fact

659
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 5: that we used to kill kings. Someone says that they're

660
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 5: in charge of everyone else, and someone says, no, you're not.

661
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 5: That's okay by me, right, But you know that if

662
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 5: that is people have this perception of anarchists as only

663
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 5: the people who are trying to destroy the existent, rather

664
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 5: than create a society based on equality, based on non hierarchy.

665
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 3: And so the largest example.

666
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 5: Of an anarchist society that is the most that we

667
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 5: have the most information about, at least as a consciously

668
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 5: anarchist society, was during the Spanish Civil War in the

669
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 5: nineteen thirties, when anarchists were the majority, I believe, of

670
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 5: the labor movement in Spain. And so when this war

671
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 5: broke out, when Franco invaded and tried to declare fascism

672
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 5: within and had tried to do a coup, basically anarchists

673
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 5: were on the front lines and prevented that from happening.

674
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 3: And then in that.

675
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 5: Lack of the republic having state power, the anarchists started

676
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 5: running everything and they had a lot of organizations in place.

677
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 5: This is the other misconception that people have about anarchism.

678
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 5: So anarchism is not anti organization. Anarchism is purely anti

679
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 5: authoritarian organization where someone tells you what to do in

680
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 5: a way that you don't have a say over, and

681
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 5: they still create ructures, but their bottom up structures instead

682
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 5: of top down structures. So a lot of anarchists talk

683
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 5: about federations and so goods can still be transported everywhere,

684
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 5: and you know, things can be made and things can

685
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 5: be done in society can function, I believe within this

686
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 5: type of framework. And one of the other main distinctions

687
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 5: of it is that anarchists don't tend to separate the

688
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 5: means from the ends, so they so theoretically a state

689
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 5: communist or a communist, Marxist, communist, a Marxist, Leninist, et cetera,

690
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 5: believe in the creation of communism, which is a society

691
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 5: without a state, but they create a state or take

692
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 5: the state in order to do that. Anarchists believe that

693
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 5: the means and the ends are inseparable. And this is

694
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 5: where it ties into feminism. For me, well one, anarchist

695
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 5: feminism has been a large part of the feminist movement

696
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 5: throughout history, and feminism has been a large part of

697
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 5: the anarchist movement. But this idea that the means and

698
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 5: the ends are inseparable, you know, the idea of like

699
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 5: Our goal is to give more people more agency over

700
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 5: their own lives.

701
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 3: Our goal is.

702
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 5: To teach consent and teach ways of relating to each

703
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 5: other as equals.

704
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: Whether or not.

705
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,760
Speaker 5: Even like we win and we get an anarchist society.

706
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 5: Our goal is to infuse our interpersonal relationships with this

707
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 5: sense of equality and agency and so and so. Direct

708
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 5: action is often a major focus of anarchism, and so

709
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 5: actually a thing that came up in my research. I

710
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 5: researched the Jain collective, who are amazing and they mostly

711
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 5: come from a socialist position and that allowed them to think,

712
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,919
Speaker 5: we don't care about legality, We're going to get this done.

713
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 3: And you know, Jain collective.

714
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 5: I presume most people are aware, but as an underground

715
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 5: abortion provider in Chicago that did an amazing work. I

716
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 5: later discovered that anarchists in Germany in the nineteen twenties

717
00:35:53,000 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 5: and thirties ran three hundred different illegal abortion providers all

718
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 5: across Germany. And they didn't do it in the name

719
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 5: of anarchism. It's just that this feminist movement that was

720
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 5: providing abortion came out of the anarchist organizing tradition. And

721
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 5: because they had that we're good at illegal stuff, we

722
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 5: care about agency, we care about all of these things,

723
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 5: they set up three hundred clinics. I'm going to have

724
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 5: my numbers fuzzy when I say this stuff. I don't

725
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 5: have my notes in front of me. Please don't quote

726
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 5: me direct what you all, but I mean, like anyone

727
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 5: listening at home, you know, don't be like exactly three hundred,

728
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 5: you know. And and I read that, and I was

729
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 5: just so excited, and I want to know more about that,

730
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 5: you know. And I only know the like Cliff Snows

731
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 5: versions because well, because there's a lot of really old

732
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 5: books that I have to read in order to really

733
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 5: understand it.

734
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so that's what it is for me.

735
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 5: You know, there's it's a thing that means a lot

736
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 5: of different things to different people. Oh, but at the

737
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 5: very beginning I said, it's two things, and one it's

738
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 5: this specific ideological tradition, and then two it's its own

739
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 5: concept which has existed long before it's had a name.

740
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 5: And there's a lot of people doing work, especially from

741
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 5: non European backgrounds, about anarchic organizing that has very similar

742
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 5: like means and ends, but doesn't come from well this

743
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 5: old dead white guy with a beard said this, and

744
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 5: instead are like our traditions that are coming from North America,

745
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 5: or our traditions that are coming from you know, West

746
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 5: Africa or whatever, like tie in very well to this,

747
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 5: and this is how we see things, you know.

748
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's I don't know.

749
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 5: If that was a good one on one or not,

750
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 5: but no, that's that's where I'm coming from.

751
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 3: Politically, it's very good.

752
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 4: I love that because yeah, I don't, like I said,

753
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 4: the history is very fuzzy for me because, like I said,

754
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 4: I grew up in North Georgia, where everything's very binary anyway,

755
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 4: and when it comes to politics, either you're with us

756
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 4: or you aren't. Kind of conversations and having this level

757
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 4: of like, oh, anarchists has always been not a bad

758
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 4: word necessarily, but not necessarily a good one either.

759
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like it's you know, it's with

760
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: the foreigners. You just you got to put it out there.

761
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 4: It's it's not part of the US culture and especially

762
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 4: Mountain culture.

763
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: That's from me.

764
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 4: But like that's a lot of like learning lessons of like, Okay,

765
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 4: this is exactly where I am and my standpoint. I

766
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 4: didn't know what it was necessarily not necessarily like bombing kings,

767
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 4: I'm not talking about that, but in general, just like

768
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 4: finding out what it is to be autonomous in understanding

769
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 4: that as a group we do things better the societal

770
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 4: aspect of everything.

771
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: And of course, you know we're not going to talk.

772
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 4: About communism and how that does lie within the patriarchal ideals,

773
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 4: but like what I'm talking about in understanding I became

774
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,240
Speaker 4: a social worker because I wanted to work for the collective.

775
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 4: I wanted to be one who did a macro practice

776
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 4: over a micro ideal. And that's a big debate within

777
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 4: social work. When I was in social work. I don't

778
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 4: know if it's changed because it's been a minute since

779
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 4: I've been in school. But that was a big debate

780
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 4: about the macro micro of helping ammunity in society and

781
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 4: what does that look like and what did social work.

782
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: Began to be.

783
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 4: It came out of a macro practicing helping communities. That's

784
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 4: where it came to. And then it got you know,

785
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 4: dissected into well, I'll be a therapist, which is not

786
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 4: a bad thing, please understand. I believe that helps as

787
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 4: well a community when it's done correctly. But yeah, this

788
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 4: like understanding is like, oh okay, I've been practicing this,

789
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 4: this makes sense.

790
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: Oh okay.

791
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 4: When we talk about feminism, especially when we talk about

792
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 4: intersectional feminism, which is where we are today, and it's

793
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 4: shifted a lot.

794
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 3: When we talk.

795
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 4: About feminism, feminism from the origins of the word to

796
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 4: today has shifted greatly in a good way. I hope

797
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 4: as we are You're right, we have tracked backwards. As

798
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 4: now we can at least differentiate those who are bad

799
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 4: players when it comes to feminism, such as terces such

800
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 4: as the Rawlings fan base that sticks with her with

801
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,879
Speaker 4: her stupidity. I like that outlet that, but I think

802
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 4: there's a whole level of conversation when we talk about

803
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 4: politics and understanding our platforms and growing together and what

804
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 4: does feminism look like?

805
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: And we had to revisit that.

806
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 4: Often any and I honestly probably every year or so,

807
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 4: come back and have a conversation of Okay, this is

808
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 4: the things that we've learned, this is what we see

809
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 4: in society, this is what we know that is changing vastly.

810
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 4: The Black Lives Matter, massage, noir. You know, you have

811
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 4: to revamp that conversation about feminism. And I think as

812
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 4: we are going back to seeing the negativity towards the

813
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 4: queer community, the negativity towards the trans community, we have

814
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 4: to come back and revisit this conversation what does feminism

815
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 4: look like today? So in your opinion, and this is

816
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 4: a big question, and I'm sorry for this, this is

817
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 4: how I do. Do you think when you came out

818
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 4: your perspective of feminism changed in a positive negative manner?

819
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 4: Ale's part one B what do you see as a

820
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 4: positive infeminism today and as a negative infeminism today?

821
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I'm going to answer the second part first,

822
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 5: I think, I think that intersectionality is the main beautiful

823
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 5: thing that is happening to feminism, you know, and having

824
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 5: people understand the way that well just literally how intersections work,

825
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 5: and how the issues that affect rich white women are

826
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 5: very different than the issues that affect rich black women,

827
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 5: that are very different from the issues that affect you know,

828
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 5: poor people of color, and it allows us to hopefully

829
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 5: be better to one another and to understand that like

830
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 5: instead of this like that we're all fighting in solidarity

831
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 5: with each other rather than as a united mass, right,

832
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 5: because we are all coming into feminism with our own

833
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 5: needs and our own priorities. But we can stand together

834
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 5: because we understand what we do have in common and

835
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 5: what we don't and how we can you know, and

836
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 5: how I can assume that well, like, Okay, for example,

837
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 5: Roe v. Waight affects me, but it does not affect

838
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 5: me bodily, right, I mean, if it destroys the right

839
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 5: to privacy and it gets used to prevent people from

840
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 5: medically transitioning, yes, but like I'm not having an abortion

841
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 5: anytime soon, and less medical you know, less medical technology advances.

842
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 5: And then there's always that joke about like wanting to

843
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 5: be the first trans woman to get an abortion.

844
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 3: You know, just to fiss off everyone.

845
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 5: But and while abortion is more than a woman's issue

846
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 5: because it affects people who are not women bodily. You know,

847
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 5: it affects uh, trans people's, certain intersect people, certain non

848
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 5: binary people. You know, it affects a lot of people

849
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 5: right who are not women. It also is gender based discrimination,

850
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 5: and that gender based discrimination looks real similar to the

851
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 5: people who are telling me what I can do with

852
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 5: my body, and even if it wasn't something that affects

853
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 5: most women, affects me, right, And so being able to say,

854
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 5: like this matters to me, and like, I don't know,

855
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 5: it's just like finding these points of solidarity. I think

856
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 5: that this is like what intersectionality is really good for.

857
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 5: I think that especially now, and I think this is

858
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 5: a newer addition. We're starting to see class introduced to

859
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 5: it into this intersectionality as well, and I think that

860
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 5: that's vital. I think one of the problems of the

861
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 5: old left is they reduced everything to class, right, But

862
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 5: one of the problems with the sort of essentially liberal

863
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 5: feminism is that it cuts class out of intersectionality. Sometimes

864
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 5: I don't actually believe the average person who identifies as

865
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,959
Speaker 5: a liberal does. But the sort of like the agenda, yeah,

866
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 5: the larger. You know, there's such a difference between like

867
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 5: liberal politicians and liberals right, and so I think that

868
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,479
Speaker 5: the introduction of class is very important because it's all

869
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 5: related to power. It all comes back to power as

870
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 5: far as I'm concerned, And class is a very strong

871
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 5: indicator of power. But so is race, so is ethnicity,

872
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 5: so is gender, so is sexual orientation. So that there's

873
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 5: so many other things that also relate to power in

874
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 5: terms of what I think feminism war feminism is like

875
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 5: misstepped or the things that are going badly. Fortunately, I

876
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 5: think the US has like largely avoided this because well,

877
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 5: because the right wing has a monopoly on hating trans

878
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 5: people in the United States.

879
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 3: You know, it became a culture war thing to.

880
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 5: Not allow anyone be non binary, not allow anyone to

881
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 5: be trans or whatever within the United States along right

882
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 5: left lines. So, by and large, I don't run across

883
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 5: feminists who are like they then that's awful or whatever,

884
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 5: you know, or like you're not a real woman, you're

885
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 5: a you know, man in drag or whatever. I'm like,

886
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 5: I honestly don't care whatever I'm actually me, my pronouns

887
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 5: are I you know, like but in terms of how

888
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 5: society views me, like I'm finding the best possible, the

889
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 5: most useful description to provide for other people, you know.

890
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 5: But it is a problem I think with feminism internationally

891
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,240
Speaker 5: and specifically in the UK right now, and it could

892
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 5: creep in in the United States, and so I really

893
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,879
Speaker 5: I feel like I try to, you know, I think,

894
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 5: well kind of have to, but we all try to

895
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 5: kind of like keep that from creeping in.

896
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 3: Is the turf thing.

897
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 5: Is the idea that feminism excludes trans people, which is

898
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 5: just historically myopic. You know, all of these things have

899
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 5: all been related. Even if you look at the history

900
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 5: of understanding homosexuality, you know, transness was not a distinct

901
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 5: category for a very long time. Of course, the people

902
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 5: who started to distinguish it were some Germans who then

903
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 5: the Nazis came and burned all their books and killed

904
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 5: the first woman to medically transition. The famous book burning photos.

905
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 5: Whenever you see that famous photo of Nazis burning books,

906
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 5: it was the Institute for Sexual I don't have it

907
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 5: off the top of my head. Is Hirschfeld's Institute where

908
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 5: he studied homosexuality and transness, and you know, was one

909
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 5: of the first medical practitioners to say, like, hey, if

910
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 5: you allow trans people to live as their showsen identity,

911
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 5: everything is better and they are medically healthier, you know.

912
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 3: Anyway, I don't know.

913
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 5: I'm rambling about that, but so so I guess I

914
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 5: would say that's like the advantages and disadvantages. I think

915
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 5: feminism is mostly just doing well, and it has more

916
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,439
Speaker 5: it needs to do. It has more, especially I think

917
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 5: continuing especially along race lines, there's like way more that

918
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 5: feminism needs to do.

919
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 3: But what was the first of the two questions?

920
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 4: I was asking that since you transitioned came out, has

921
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 4: anything changed in your perspective of feminism.

922
00:46:59,520 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

923
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 5: It took me a really long time to feel comfortable

924
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 5: eyeing myself in conversations about feminism. I spent a very

925
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 5: long time and put a lot of work into being

926
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:14,240
Speaker 5: like an ally right, Like I used to write scenes

927
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 5: and stuff that were like feminism for men, you know,

928
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 5: and and not taking up conversational space was very important

929
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 5: to me, and so I like very much all of

930
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 5: my attention was focused outward towards like non feminism or

931
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 5: towards particularly towards men, to be like, hey, here's ways

932
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 5: to be more feminist. And so you know, there's like

933
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 5: this outsider syndrome, right that I have around it. And

934
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 5: I actually really appreciate the work that folks like you do,

935
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 5: I mean, even like inviting me here on this, you know,

936
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 5: and and the degree to which like so many you know,

937
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 5: CIS women and a fab people in general have this

938
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 5: this work they've done to be like, no, what are

939
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 5: you talking about, Like, no, it's it's actually totally.

940
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 3: Fine, you know.

941
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 5: And I remember the first time I was invited to

942
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 5: like an all women's full Moon circle, you know, and

943
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 5: they were just like, hey, we're and I was kind

944
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 5: of their test case, right they had like they had

945
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 5: actually and actually I really respect them for this.

946
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 3: They had just split they were all SIS.

947
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 5: Women like you know, full moon like ritual collective, right,

948
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 5: and they they had this hypothetical conversation about whether or

949
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 5: not they should include trans women, and it got so

950
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,479
Speaker 5: heated that it split into two groups. And I really

951
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 5: appreciate the people who were like, this is so important

952
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 5: to me that even though it's a hypothetical, we will

953
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 5: like stand our ground around.

954
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 3: This, you know.

955
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 5: And I felt a little bit like recruited where they

956
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 5: were like, ah, like come join us, you know, but

957
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 5: like it was mostly just good like yeah, you know,

958
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 5: so yeah, I guess that's how my my my view

959
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 5: wanted change. This is literally like including myself in a

960
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 5: more direct way and then allow allowing myself to because

961
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 5: I think when you're an ally to a movement, you

962
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 5: can promote the work of people within that movement, but

963
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 5: you generally don't try to like shape it or direct

964
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 5: it or whatever, you know. And allowing myself to feel

965
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,959
Speaker 5: comfortable having a say is really interesting and still something

966
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 5: that I like, I still don't totally know, and it

967
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 5: helps that at the end of the day, I'm like,

968
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 5: well I have to say about me, right and my

969
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 5: perspective I'm really not trying to and not. Actually that's

970
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 5: where it comes with intersectionality in a good way.

971
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 3: Right.

972
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 5: So because I can't I can't speak to the experiences

973
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 5: of most women, I can speak to my experience, you know,

974
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 5: which is a white trans woman, which is a specific

975
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 5: set of things.

976
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 2: You know, Well, as we've been discussing throughout this, you

977
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 2: are so so busy, You're doing it so much just

978
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 2: out of curiosity because we like to ask this, is

979
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 2: there anything that you do to kind of balance those

980
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 2: things out, like self care wise, how do you make

981
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:02,720
Speaker 2: sure that it's not too much.

982
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 5: Well, my idea of relaxing is doing projects. So mostly

983
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:10,720
Speaker 5: I try to do projects that don't make any money.

984
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:12,399
Speaker 3: It's one of the main ways I do.

985
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 5: It, or like I don't know, Like right now, I'm

986
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:18,919
Speaker 5: like trying to help my friend is a single mom,

987
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 5: Like make their watering system in their garden work so

988
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 5: that they don't have to work as much. And the

989
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 5: gardening thing just goes and it activates all the parts

990
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 5: of my brain. I like where I'm like puzzles and

991
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 5: like playing. I can't believe it's a part of my

992
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 5: brain that loves plumbing. But I lived in an off

993
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 5: grid cabin for a long time, so I you know,

994
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 5: I like doing things I'm vaguely good at, and.

995
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 3: So in terms of all.

996
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 5: Self care, I kind of got to get drag kicking

997
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 5: and screaming into it. I like hiking. I like, you know,

998
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 5: my truck is built out into a camper. My dog

999
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 5: is very needy because he's a puppy, and so I

1000
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 5: gotta go on walks with him a lot.

1001
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know.

1002
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 5: I actually honestly need to get better at self care.

1003
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 5: I have too many plates spinning, But sometimes the thing

1004
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 5: that seems fun is setting up new plates to spin.

1005
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 5: So maybe my idea of self care is finishing projects

1006
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 5: right because then they're done, Yeah, and then you don't.

1007
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 3: Have to do them anymore.

1008
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 5: And then the other thing I did is I I

1009
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 5: require all new hobbies to be physical instead of on

1010
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 5: the computer, because everything I do for money is on

1011
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:30,800
Speaker 5: a computer. So all hobbies, woodworking, gardening, anything like that.

1012
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:31,800
Speaker 3: That is a good tip.

1013
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: That's a good one. I'll like it to unplug.

1014
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 4: Yes, we know you need to go on and move

1015
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 4: on to the bigger and better projects in the ten

1016
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 4: thousand plates you've got going on. But where can our

1017
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 4: listeners find you?

1018
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, this is not this is a

1019
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 5: bigger and better I am so excited that you all

1020
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 5: have me on this show. I'm like, I really think

1021
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 5: it's cool that what you all do. But where can

1022
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 5: people find me? You can find me on Twitter at

1023
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 5: Magpie Kiljoy. You can find me on Instagram at Margot Killjoy.

1024
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 5: Instagram is like mostly me posting pictures of my dog

1025
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 5: or like instruments I make whereas Twitter is me pretending

1026
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 5: like I would never fall into arguing about discourse on

1027
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 5: the internet. No, sir, not me. And you can pre

1028
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 5: order my book from Akpress. If you pre order it

1029
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 5: before September twentieth, you'll get an art print that is

1030
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 5: done by my friends, the same person who did the

1031
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 5: cover art, and you can order that from Akpress or

1032
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,839
Speaker 5: a number of participating in bookstores, including cooperatively run bookstores

1033
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 5: like Firestorm Books in Asheville or read Emma's Books in Baltimore.

1034
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 3: As I think.

1035
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 5: Cooperatives are cool. Worker cooperatives are awesome, And you can

1036
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 5: find me on whatever you listen to this podcast with.

1037
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 5: You can find me at cool people who did cool stuff.

1038
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 5: And you can go back in time and look up

1039
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 5: the Jaine Collective episode and order to listen to Samantha

1040
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 5: as well. And you can listen to Live Like the

1041
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 5: World Is Dying, which is also on your podcast app.

1042
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you so much for being here with such

1043
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 2: a delight, Please come back because there's so much I

1044
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 2: was like, Oh, resonating with me, you're also my best

1045
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 2: friend as well.

1046
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 3: Awesome.

1047
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: I feel like we had three other subjects that we

1048
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:07,320
Speaker 1: need to tackle.

1049
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 3: I want to talk about this, but I want to.

1050
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 2: I can't talk about the hobby right now.

1051
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 5: Okay, oh, but but we should sometimes.

1052
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 2: I would love to also preparedness.

1053
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 3: That would be great.

1054
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 2: Okay, yes, well until that date. Thank you so much

1055
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 2: for joining us. Come back anytime. Listeners. If you would

1056
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 2: like to contact us, you can. Our email is stuffid

1057
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 2: You mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find

1058
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 2: us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram

1059
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 2: and Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as always to

1060
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 2: our superroducer Christina, thank you, and thanks to you for

1061
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 2: listening Stuff and Never Told You the protection of iHeartRadio.

1062
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check

1063
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 2: out that I heart radio app. Have a podcast wherever

1064
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows.