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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen. Here's Spooky Week special presentation.

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Speaker 1: I'm Garrison Davis and earlier this year, I, along with

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Speaker 1: my friend Elane, attended the twenty twenty three organ Ghost

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Speaker 1: Conference in Seaside, Oregon. The past few years, I've had

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Speaker 1: a growing interest in the occult, both for testing the

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Speaker 1: limits of manufacturing my own weird experiences as well as

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Speaker 1: looking at it as a vector of political extremism. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's useful to not just to look on from the outside,

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Speaker 1: but actually pop into other people's reality tunnels to gain

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Speaker 1: a more intimate understanding of how they interact with our world.

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Speaker 1: This was my primary motivation in attending the Ghost Conference

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Speaker 1: to learn what metaphysical beliefs drive the attendees and how

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Speaker 1: said beliefs intersect with politics and our broader culture. My

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Speaker 1: experiences at the conference ranged from ghost hunting to being hypnotized,

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Speaker 1: to learning of the galactic Federation of Angels and abortion

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Speaker 1: hungry demons. So with that in mind, I hope you

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Speaker 1: enjoy my report back on the twenty twenty three organ

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Speaker 1: Ghost Conference. The first challenge we faced was simply getting

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Speaker 1: to the town of Seaside. The first day of the conference, Friday,

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Speaker 1: March twenty fourth, coincided with a massive snowstorm along Highway

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Speaker 1: twenty six from Portland to sea Side. As we were

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Speaker 1: driving on the treacherous mountain roads, a white out completely

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Speaker 1: engulfed our view. When we emerge from the snowstorm, it

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Speaker 1: was as if we'd gone through a portal, transporting us

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Speaker 1: from the mountainous forest to the small coastal town of Seaside, Oregon,

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Speaker 1: into a world of ghosts, spirits, specters, and overpriced convention food. Seaside,

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Speaker 1: as the name suggests, is a beachfront town situated in

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Speaker 1: northern Oregon. It was founded in the late eighteen hundredths

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Speaker 1: after railroad baron Ben Holliday built his summer vacation quote

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Speaker 1: unquote Seaside House on the plot of land which is

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Speaker 1: now Seaside's golf course. It's always been a sort of

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Speaker 1: tourist resort town that people from Portland travel to for

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Speaker 1: beachfront entertainment. The conference is put on by a friendly

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Speaker 1: high school art teacher and Oregon City commissioner, Rocky Smith.

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Speaker 1: Smith has been doing ghost tours in Oregon since the

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Speaker 1: mid nineties and has been putting on the Oregon Ghost

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Speaker 1: Conference since twenty twelve. Originally, it was held in Smith's

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Speaker 1: hometown of Oregon City, an extremely haunted town often cited

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Speaker 1: as the end of the organ trail. In twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 1: the conference outgrew its Oregon City venue and relocated to Seaside.

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Speaker 1: It's now the largest paranormal convention in the Pacific Northwest.

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Speaker 1: The conference features ghost tours, classes, guest speakers, vendors, tara readings, seances,

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Speaker 1: ghost hunting, and paranormal investigations. The first big event I

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Speaker 1: marked on my schedule was a ghost tour to get

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Speaker 1: acquainted with Seaside's most haunted places. The tour began right

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Speaker 1: outside the convention center. Conference director Rocky Smith led this

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Speaker 1: one himself. He filled us in on some old ghost

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Speaker 1: conference lore. The Seaside Convention Center went through some extensive

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Speaker 1: renovations right before the pandemic, but the first year of

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Speaker 1: the conference took place in the convention center. They had

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Speaker 1: a class for kids where a group of children explored

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Speaker 1: around the old building to find what they thought were

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Speaker 1: the most haunted places. There was one hallway on the

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Speaker 1: west side of the building where people routinely reported strange experiences.

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Speaker 1: Back in twenty sixteen, a child at the conference claimed

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Speaker 1: they saw a ghost down this hallway when exiting the bathroom. First,

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Speaker 1: they just saw something out of the corner of their eye,

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Speaker 1: and then when they turned to the left, they saw

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Speaker 1: a woman in an old dress staring at them. At first,

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Speaker 1: they weren't sure if the dress was long or short

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Speaker 1: because they were too scared to look down, But then

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Speaker 1: they noticed that the woman didn't have any legs and

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Speaker 1: was just floating in the air. Because of the new renovations,

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Speaker 1: that hallway is no longer accessible. Rocky Smith remarked that

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Speaker 1: he didn't know if that was intentional or not, but

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Speaker 1: said that a lot of times when they redo buildings,

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Speaker 1: they'll change the part of a building that used to

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Speaker 1: be kind of scary and uncomfortable, so that hallway is

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Speaker 1: now used for storage, although one of the convention staff

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Speaker 1: members claimed that a vacuum cleaner now held in the

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Speaker 1: hallway is possessed. So there's that. The Convention Center was

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Speaker 1: originally built in the seventies and doesn't really have a

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Speaker 1: lot of notable history. But when looking into hauntings or

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Speaker 1: reports of ghosts, typically people try to learn the history

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Speaker 1: of the building or plot of land in question. For Seaside,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of hard because in nineteen twelve, four blocks

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Speaker 1: of downtown Seaside burned to the ground, destroying most of

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Speaker 1: the town's early history. The first stop on the ghost

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Speaker 1: tour after we left the Convention Center was one of

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Speaker 1: the reportedly most active sites of ghostly activity in Seaside,

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Speaker 1: the Bridge Tender Tavern. It was built in nineteen fourteen,

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Speaker 1: so just a couple of years after the big fire.

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Speaker 1: It used to be called the Pastime Bar and then

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Speaker 1: suffered its own fire and was later renamed the Bridge Tender.

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Speaker 1: The previous owners of the bar claimed that in the

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Speaker 1: early twentieth century it was a brothel. This is unconfirmed,

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Speaker 1: but it relates to the tavern's most frequent ghost the Madam.

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Speaker 1: Staff and patrons of the Bridge Tender regularly address the Madam.

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Speaker 1: If customers are being rude, It said that the Madam

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Speaker 1: will spill drinks on them, you know, stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: The story I like the most about the Madam has

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Speaker 1: to do with the tavern's old CD jute box. If

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Speaker 1: a specific song played on the jukebox, something would go haywire,

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Speaker 1: CDs would shoot out of it, or other weird things

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Speaker 1: would reportedly happen in the bar. Patrons would put the

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Speaker 1: song on repeat just to see what would happen. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: the owners took the CD with the song in question

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Speaker 1: out of the jukebox so that people would just stop

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Speaker 1: playing the song. But people are persistent bastards, so now

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Speaker 1: people just play the song on their phones or the

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Speaker 1: new digital jukebox in Bridge Tender. Now, the theory is

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Speaker 1: is that the Madam just really hates this song, so

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Speaker 1: she gets mad when it plays and then causes some commotion.

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Speaker 1: The song is Dancing Queen by Abba, So if you

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Speaker 1: want to go test this yourself, you can travel to

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Speaker 1: the Bridge Tender and play Dancing Queen and see what happens.

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Speaker 1: Another highlight from the ghost tour was learning about the

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Speaker 1: old Seasider Hotel at the end of the promenade. It

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Speaker 1: was purportedly haunted by multiple spirits, and it was believed

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Speaker 1: that when the hotel was torn down in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: the ghosts followed the hotel staff who got new jobs

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Speaker 1: at a restaurant in downtown called Girdles. New employees are

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Speaker 1: said to have recognized apparitions from the hotel, and the

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Speaker 1: restaurant gained a haunted coffee pot that would either move

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Speaker 1: on its own or even fly across the room, depending

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Speaker 1: on who you would ask. It's nice that the ghosts

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Speaker 1: seem to have a pretty good job relocation program, something

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Speaker 1: that most of us do not so good for them.

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Speaker 1: As the ghost tour approached the Beachfront promenade, that snowstorm

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Speaker 1: from the nearby mountains seemed to have caught up with us,

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Speaker 1: and a dreary mix of rain and snow began to

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Speaker 1: descend upon Seaside, as if some otherworldly force was trying

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Speaker 1: to keep us from further exploring the hauntings of the town.

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Speaker 1: So as even my trench coat began soaking through, we

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Speaker 1: took refuge back indoors the very first class. My friend

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Speaker 1: Elaine and I took at the conference was titled Ghost Detectives. Now,

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Speaker 1: despite the silly, stounding name, it was probably the most

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Speaker 1: grounded class throughout the entire weekend, certainly the one with

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Speaker 1: the least amount of spiritual dogma. The class was focused

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Speaker 1: on best practices for conducting paranormal investstigations, specifically to ensure

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Speaker 1: that the process and finding's mirror the evidentiary standards set

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Speaker 1: by the justice system for law enforcement investigations. The instructor,

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Speaker 1: doctor Nelson, is a supervisor for a crisis hotline with

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Speaker 1: degrees in mental health, metaphysics, and fine arts. He describes

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Speaker 1: his methodology for investigating paranormal activity as quote unquote applied science.

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Speaker 1: He was definitely the most meticulous investigator of the whole weekend,

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Speaker 1: and the least ghost hunter esque in terms of advocating

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Speaker 1: for strict investigative procedures and not just assuming that every

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Speaker 1: spooky noise was evidence of a ghost. Most of his

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Speaker 1: class was spent explaining very basic police investigative procedure, proper

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Speaker 1: ways to collect evidence, having a chain of evidence, and

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Speaker 1: not simply jumping to conclusions. It's a little foolhardy to

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Speaker 1: assume every single spike on an electromagnetic field or EMF

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Speaker 1: meter is actually a ghost trying to communicate. The other

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Speaker 1: unique thing about his class was the emphasis on before

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Speaker 1: pulling out your special ghost and detecting tools. Perhaps one

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Speaker 1: should conduct thorough interviews and collect witness statements of the

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Speaker 1: people reporting the phenomenon. Try to figure out what's going

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Speaker 1: on in their life, maybe even look into their own

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Speaker 1: mental health background as much as you're able to, if

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Speaker 1: they've had any sudden losses, past trauma, or history of

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Speaker 1: paranormal experiences. Asking thorough questions can give a much fuller

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Speaker 1: look at what someone might be going through. Some examples

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Speaker 1: of things to ask or look into were if the

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Speaker 1: phenomenon is related to a house, who owns the house,

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Speaker 1: who lives there, who has experienced the event? What led

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Speaker 1: to a paranormal investigator being called? What precipitated the phenomenon?

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Speaker 1: When it occurred? How often has it occurred? When was

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Speaker 1: it first noticed? Was there just one random strange experience

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Speaker 1: or is someone going through an event in their life

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Speaker 1: that is the maiden experience suddenly stick out as strange.

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Speaker 1: Has the person sought help, and has the phenomenon been

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Speaker 1: verified by more than one person? In terms of haunted houses,

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Speaker 1: figuring out if there's any issues in the house is

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Speaker 1: a great first step because if there's a carbon monoxide leak,

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Speaker 1: that could explain a great many things. Or if someone

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Speaker 1: claims ghost ectoplasm is leaking through the ceiling and walls,

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Speaker 1: perhaps the roof and water pipes should be inspected. Elene

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Speaker 1: and I did a little debrief after the conference, and

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Speaker 1: they reminded me of another good tip gleaned from the

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Speaker 1: ghost detective class.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean my favorite was when he was talking about, like,

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Speaker 3: if you're using an EMF detector and one wall just

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Speaker 3: keeps setting the EMF detector off, you might actually just

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Speaker 3: need to call an electrician.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, No, he definitely was one of the more

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Speaker 1: reasonable people we spoke with in terms of Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: seems he seems pretty close to like consensus reality. Like

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Speaker 1: he also he also is like a part of the

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Speaker 1: Portland Ghostbusters cosplay group. Like he's he's someone who like

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Speaker 1: makes stuff with his hands. He's very like he feels

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Speaker 1: very grounded and like and like concept this reality a

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Speaker 1: lot in a lot of aspects, and this is like

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Speaker 1: a very fun hobby that combines his two favorite things,

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Speaker 1: well two of his favorite things, just like Ghostbusters cosplay,

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Speaker 1: and then also like paranormal investigation stuff. I'm not actually

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Speaker 1: sure if the instructor for the paranormal investigation class really

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Speaker 1: believed in ghosts or if he just had an interest

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Speaker 1: in researching paranormal experiences. I don't think I believe in

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Speaker 1: ghosts the same way literally everyone else at the conference did.

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Speaker 1: But almost half of Americans do believe in ghosts, and

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Speaker 1: around one fifth are unsure if they're believers or not.

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Speaker 1: The rate of belief in ghosts is about the same

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Speaker 1: as belief in demons. But the interesting thing about that

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Speaker 1: is although Americans belief in organized religion has been decreasing,

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Speaker 1: especially Christianity, belief in ghosts has been and still is

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Speaker 1: on the rise. In fact, it's gone up by nearly

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Speaker 1: four hundred percent since the nineteen seventies. These last three years,

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Speaker 1: for really the first time ever, Gallup polls show that

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Speaker 1: less than fifty percent of Americans say they belong to

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Speaker 1: a religious congregation. Alan Downe is a computer scientist and

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Speaker 1: professor at the Olin College of Engineering in Massachusetts. His

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Speaker 1: research suggests that the Internet is a major cause, not

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Speaker 1: just a correlating factor, in the decrease of religious affiliation,

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Speaker 1: and with the rise of the Internet and reality TV,

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Speaker 1: ghost hunting has become a relatively popular niche hobby. But

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Speaker 1: as religious belief has declined, belief in the afterlife has

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Speaker 1: remained the same, about seventy percent according to the General

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Speaker 1: Social Survey. Gallup's polling suggests that currently about three and

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Speaker 1: four Americans have some sort of paranormal belief. Thomas Mowen,

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Speaker 1: associate theologist who's been conducting a study on religion and

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Speaker 1: paranormal belief at Bowling Green State University, said that he's

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Speaker 1: finding that quote atheists tend to report higher belief in

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Speaker 1: the paranormal than religious folk unquote. As to why so

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Speaker 1: many Americans believe in ghosts, Moen says, quote, people are

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Speaker 1: looking to other things or non traditional things to answer

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Speaker 1: life's big questions that don't necessarily include religion unquote. Throughout

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Speaker 1: the conference, the word ghost, spirit, and entity were often

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Speaker 1: used interchangeably. Each of those words kind of act as

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Speaker 1: an umbrella term for a broad swath of ontological concepts.

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Speaker 1: Ontology is the branch of metaphysics that relates to the

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Speaker 1: nature of being. Depending who you ask, a ghost or

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Speaker 1: a spirit can be anything from a wayward soul of

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Speaker 1: a deceased human, some other worldly energy, an evil presence,

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Speaker 1: or even some sort of temporal loop. Historically, these have

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Speaker 1: never been very clear either. They've evolved with the times,

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Speaker 1: so Elene and I prepared a brief history of ghosts

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Speaker 1: to help give context for the rest of this episode

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Speaker 1: and the next. The idea of contacting spirits or interacting

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Speaker 1: with some sort of spirit world obviously isn't new. Worldwide,

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Speaker 1: people have traditions of interacting with ancestors that deceased in

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Speaker 1: a variety of non material beings. Ancestor veneration in China

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Speaker 1: goes back at least six thousand years, while the word shaman,

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Speaker 1: relating to someone who works with spirits and in the

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Speaker 1: spirit realm for healing and divination, comes from the Tungusic

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Speaker 1: language of Siberia and has practices that are at least

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Speaker 1: too millennia old. The term necromancy stems from a Greek

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Speaker 1: word meaning divination of the dead. In the Odyssey, Homer

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Speaker 1: writes of Odysseus learning necromantic rituals to summon the shade

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Speaker 1: or underworld ghost of Tyresius, while wile clerical necromantic traditions

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Speaker 1: through the medieval period made a clear distinction between the

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Speaker 1: souls of dead humans from other random spirits. That separation

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Speaker 1: was not as ubiquitous among folk beliefs of people who

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Speaker 1: claimed to interact with the spirit world. Emma Wilby describes

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Speaker 1: in her book Cunning Folk and Familiar Spirits. How into

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Speaker 1: the early modern period, many cunning folk, basically low level

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Speaker 1: magicians and conjurers, had ghosts, fairies, and animal spirit companions,

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Speaker 1: all of which seemed to interact very similarly. The European

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Speaker 1: concept of ghosts being linked to evil or demonic forces

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Speaker 1: is a relatively new idea. It came to be as

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Speaker 1: a byproduct of the Reformation and rejection of the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 1: The Catholic doctrine of purgatory and limbo was rejected by

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Speaker 1: the new Protestants, which caused some cosmological problems when it

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Speaker 1: came to people's own experiences with ghosts and spirits. Catholics

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Speaker 1: held them that ghosts were basically spirits of dead humans

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Speaker 1: on vacation from purgatory, But with Protestants rejecting purgatory for

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Speaker 1: its lack of biblical basis, they defined some other way

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Speaker 1: to explain the apparently fairly common phenomenon of ghostly encounters.

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Speaker 1: A Swiss theologian named Ludwig Lavater attempted to solve this

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Speaker 1: cosmological problem in his fifteen sixty nine book Despecterus. I

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Speaker 1: just picked up my copy a few weeks ago and

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Speaker 1: had been going through it, and it's a lot of fun.

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Speaker 1: The full English title was quote of ghosts and spirits

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Speaker 1: walking by night, and of strange noises, cracks and sundry

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Speaker 1: fore warnings, which commonly happened before the death of men,

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Speaker 1: great slaughters, and the alteration of kingdoms. Pretty cool stuff.

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Speaker 1: Two of my favorite consecutive chapter titles are quote what

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Speaker 1: hath followed this doctrine of the Papists concerning the appearing

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Speaker 1: of men's souls, followed by testimonies out of the Word

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Speaker 1: of God that neither the souls of the faithful nor

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Speaker 1: infidels do walketh upon the earth after they are once

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Speaker 1: parted from their bodies. So that kind of gives you

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Speaker 1: a look at the writing style of this entire book.

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Speaker 1: Despects became massively influential. It was widely translated. Shakespeare was

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Speaker 1: reading this as he was writing Hamlet. More importantly, the

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Speaker 1: text took off across many Protestant circles and became the

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Speaker 1: backbone of the cultural conception of ghosts in the soon

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Speaker 1: to be United States through such Protestant sects. Instead of

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Speaker 1: ghosts being wayward specters of dead humans who escape from purgatory,

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Speaker 1: Lavater proposed a great many explanations for spectral experiences, including

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Speaker 1: many non mystical causes. He lists illness, insomnia, psychoactive substances,

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Speaker 1: sleep paralysis, and grief as being common causes of ghostly hallucination,

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Speaker 1: an opinion now shared by many psychologists and doctors. Definitely,

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Speaker 1: the closest thing I've ever seen to a ghost was

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Speaker 1: during a sleep paralysis episode. Lavator writes, quote, Melancholic persons

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Speaker 1: and mad men imagine things which in very deed are not.

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Speaker 1: Fearful men imagine that they see and hear strange things.

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Speaker 1: Men which are dull of seeing and hearing imagine many

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Speaker 1: things which in very deed are not so unquote. He

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Speaker 1: also cites pranksters as another common cause of perceived spectral activity,

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Speaker 1: but most interestingly, in an attempt to bash the Catholics,

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Speaker 1: the Protestant Lavater also lists low level clergy trained in

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Speaker 1: exorcistic magic to summon demonic spirits in an achromatic fashion,

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Speaker 1: as possibly producing some supernatural phenomenon interpreted as ghosts. Now,

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Speaker 1: Lavater does believe in spirits, but his thesis is that

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Speaker 1: genuine ghosts, spirits bumps in the night, those strange the

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Speaker 1: cracks and noises which we now might refer to as

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Speaker 1: politygeists are almost always demons that are torturing people. He

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Speaker 1: wrote that devils can quote appear in different shapes not

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Speaker 1: only of those which are alive, but also of dead

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Speaker 1: men as well as a peer in the likeness of

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Speaker 1: a black dog, a horse, an owl, and also are

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Speaker 1: able to bring incredible things to pass unquote. Lavater did

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Speaker 1: admit that in the rarest of cases, God may send

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Speaker 1: angels or the spirit of a dead person to Earth

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Speaker 1: for a very specific task, but due to demons and

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Speaker 1: nature trickery, there's really no way to trust that a

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Speaker 1: ghostly presence may be from God, so he recommends that

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Speaker 1: one should always assume that a specter is demonic. God

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Speaker 1: may even allow demonic spirits to appear as a form

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Speaker 1: of punishment and a sign that one should repent for wrongdoing.

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Speaker 1: Lavater's theologic work on ghosts were part of a larger

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Speaker 1: Protestant Christian campaign to literally demonize all spirits. Right, the

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Speaker 1: only thing you can really talk to is Jesus or God.

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Speaker 1: Anything else is probably just a demon. This is the

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Speaker 1: version of ghosts that I grew up with as a kid,

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Speaker 1: the idea that basically, if a ghost appears, it's probably

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Speaker 1: a demon trying to scare or trick you. This concept

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Speaker 1: that spirits and spirit contact were predominantly demonic changed the

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Speaker 1: nature of many witch trials, since when cunning folk listed

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Speaker 1: their familiar ghosts or fairies, they were basically admitting to

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Speaker 1: trafficking with demons. The next evolution in ghost lore came

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Speaker 1: in the form of Emmanuel Swedenborg, a Swedish theologian and scientist.

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Speaker 1: In fact, he was one of the first to postulate

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Speaker 1: the existence of the neuron. As Christians in Europe were

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Speaker 1: dealing with this messy assortment of spirits that you really

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Speaker 1: shouldn't try and interact with, but if you do, you

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Speaker 1: better make sure they're angels, Swedenborg was about to shake

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Speaker 1: up this whole entire cosmology. In the seventeen forties, he

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Speaker 1: started having quote intense mystical experiences, dreams and visions unquote,

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Speaker 1: which led him to believe he was in contact with

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Speaker 1: a spirit world and entities that he described as angels, demons,

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Speaker 1: as well as other spirits, including ones from extraterrestrial planets.

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Speaker 1: This is like one of the first guys to do

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Speaker 1: the spirits I'm talking to are actually aliens, which is

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Speaker 1: pretty cool. In seventeen eighty five, he published a book

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Speaker 1: titled Heaven and Hell, based on his experiences of the afterlife.

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Speaker 1: According to Swedenburg, once humans on Earth pass on to

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Speaker 1: the spiritual world, they enter a intermediate realm in between

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Speaker 1: heaven and Hell and eventually either become beautified into angels

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Speaker 1: or twisted into demons, and then respectively pass on into

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Speaker 1: either Heaven or Hell proper. While his depiction of spirits

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Speaker 1: were obviously influenced by his Christian beliefs, the variety and

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Speaker 1: breadth of his spirit world was broader than just the undead.

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Speaker 1: Swedenburgh's writing was one of the early influences on spiritualism.

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Speaker 1: Core tenants of which are there being multiple levels of

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Speaker 1: the afterlife and that an individual's awareness persists after death

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Speaker 1: and may be contacted by the living, which is pretty

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Speaker 1: similar to what most people now would probably describe as

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Speaker 1: ghosts if you were to ask them what a ghost is.

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Speaker 1: While Swedenburg actually recommended against attempting to contact spirits, he

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Speaker 1: had a lasting influence on American spiritualism for creating an

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Speaker 1: explicitly Christian based system where spiritual entities worked as mediators

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Speaker 1: between humans and God. Coming out of Upstate New York

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Speaker 1: in the decade before the Civil War, spiritualism brought to

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Speaker 1: the other aspects of the radical Quakers with Swedenberg's idea

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Speaker 1: of spirit intermediary who could bring messages to the living.

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Speaker 1: The spiritualist movement formally began on March thirty first, eighteen

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Speaker 1: forty eight, when the Fox Sisters made their fraudulent claim

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Speaker 1: of contacting a spirit who could communicate through knocking noises.

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Speaker 1: Starting initially in Quaker communities, mediumship and seances immediately took

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Speaker 1: off across the United States, including the White House as

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Speaker 1: the Lincolns were graving the loss of their son, showing

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Speaker 1: that interest in ghosts and seances were not just a

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Speaker 1: parlor trick for commoners, they were also a parlor trick

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Speaker 1: for the president. The fact that the rise of spiritualism

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Speaker 1: coincided with Civil War deaths and gruesome Battlefield photography certainly

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Speaker 1: helped fuel the drive to communicate and receive messages from

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Speaker 1: the recently deceased. Due to its Quaker roots, the spiritualist

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Speaker 1: movement was abolitionist, and its belief in an egalitarian afterlife

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Speaker 1: prompted its members to advocate for social change here on earth.

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Speaker 1: Even the messages that mediums claim to relay from the

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Speaker 1: dead were often progressive. In eighteen fifty two, the medium

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Speaker 1: Isaac Post published a collection of messages he supposedly channeled

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Speaker 1: from such people as Voltaire, Thomas Jefferson, and other famous

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Speaker 1: figures who urged the living to push for radical social change.

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Speaker 1: The book, entitled Voices from the Spirit World, included a

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Speaker 1: passage claiming that the ghost of George Washington became an

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Speaker 1: abolitionist after death. And I don't know the idea that

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Speaker 1: the ghost of Jefferson and Washington suddenly became abolitionists after death.

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Speaker 1: Although I understand its utility at the time for trying

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Speaker 1: to push people towards becoming an abolitionist, it does kind

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Speaker 1: of read as a little bit gross, considering how that

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Speaker 1: was very much not their opinions when they were actually

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Speaker 1: living humans. New to the spiritualist development of ghosts was

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Speaker 1: not just the idea of regular spiritual contact, but evidence

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Speaker 1: that the spirit world could be shown to the physical,

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Speaker 1: scientific world. Basically the precursor to modern ghost hunting emerged

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Speaker 1: between the Civil War and World War I. In London,

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Speaker 1: multiple ghost clubs and psychic or paranormal research groups were

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Speaker 1: founded in the mid to late eighteen hundreds aimed at

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Speaker 1: scientifically investigating ghosts, hauntings, and the claims of spiritualists. Similar

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Speaker 1: groups for investigation opened up in the United States, and

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Speaker 1: around this time is also when we start to see

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Speaker 1: the use of technology to assist in capturing alleged evidence

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Speaker 1: of ghosts. In eighteen sixty one, amateur photographer William Mumler

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Speaker 1: was developing a self portrait when a shadowy apparition of

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Speaker 1: a young girl appeared on his developing plate. Mummler knew

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Speaker 1: this to be a simple mistake of re using an

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Speaker 1: improperly scrubbed photography plate, what we now would call a

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Speaker 1: double exposure, But upon showing this photo to a very

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00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: excited spiritualist friend of his, he realized the lucrative opportunity

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00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: that lay before him. Thus was born the business of

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Speaker 1: spirit photography. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle of Sherlock Holmes's fame,

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Speaker 1: was a fan of spirit photography. He became a member

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Speaker 1: of London's Society for Psychical Research and eventually became a

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Speaker 1: spiritualist himself. The recent inventions of the phonograph and telephone

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Speaker 1: were hoped to be utilized to create evidence of spirit contact.

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Speaker 1: According to Ghosts of Futures, Past, Spiritualism and Cultural Politics

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Speaker 1: of nineteenth century America by Molly McGary, Thomas Watson, famed

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Speaker 1: assistant to Alexander Graham Bell, experimented with the telephone as

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Speaker 1: an aid to spiritual communication. Decades later, Thomas Edison sought

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00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: to develop a quote unquote spirit phone, telling American Magazine

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Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty quote, I've been at work for some

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00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: time building an apparatus to see if it is possible

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00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: for personalities which have left this earth to communicate with us,

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Speaker 1: not by a cult, mystifying, mysterious or weird means, but

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00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: by scientific methods unquote. Edison's spirit phone never really turned out,

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Speaker 1: and we have very little information about it. It seems

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Speaker 1: Edison thought that elements of our personality or memories existed

430
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: in a form of like almost particles that could be

431
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: measured and amplified by vibrational sensing equipment, but not much

432
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: is recorded of his actual attempts to build this spirit phone.

433
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: By the end of the nineteenth century, newspaper is reported

434
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: on ghosts and hauntings along with other regular news. A

435
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen New York Times article on the paper's own

436
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: history of reporting on ghosts said, quote Paulette D. Kilmer,

437
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: a cultural historian and professor at the University of Toledo,

438
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: scoured the paper's archives. Her research turned up nearly three

439
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: hundred ghost stories in the Times between the founding of

440
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: the paper in eighteen fifty one and the early twentieth century. Quote.

441
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: While news coverage of hauntings dropped off during the twentieth century,

442
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: the ways in which people attempted to understand ghosts only

443
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: got more complex. The mediumship of the spiritualists has combined

444
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: with the ever growing field of paranormal research, New Age beliefs,

445
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: and pop culture fascination with poltergeist, spirits and UFOs, along

446
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: with the resurgence of Evangelical Protestantism into an overlap of

447
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: conflicting ghost cosmologies and what it means to contact the

448
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: spirit world. To cap off. Our first night at the conference,

449
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: we signed up for our very own ghost investigation at

450
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: the Starry Night Inn, a quaint little house just a

451
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: short walk from the convention center. We got to the

452
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: inn right before midnight on Friday evening, before we ventured

453
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: out on our hunt for ghosts. We were split into

454
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: two groups of five, with one starting in the inn

455
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: and the other in the outdoor bathhouse. We got acquainted

456
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: with the ghost hunting tools we were going to be using. First.

457
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: We were given a popular EMF meter routinely used for

458
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: ghost detection, called a K two meter. It's supposed to

459
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: measure electromagnetic fields and features colorful light up LEDs. I'm

460
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: going to read a quote from the lead investigator we

461
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: were paired with. Quote. If a K two meter spikes

462
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: without reason, if it's not put next to anything powerfully electrical,

463
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: then we can consider that paranormal. Consider that a spirit.

464
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: When our body dies, we leave behind our energies. Our

465
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: energies is EMF, and this starts to pick it up unquote.

466
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: Among the paranormal skeptic community, the K two meter is

467
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: notorious for giving off false positives. With its unshielded sense

468
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: is able to be set off by cell phones, radio waves,

469
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: and even nearby batteries. The other device we were using

470
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: is something called a rempod. Essentially, it's a small, horrible

471
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: sounding junior theoremy with some LEDs attached. An antenna creates

472
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: an electromagnetic field. If something conductive gets close to the antenna,

473
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: it forms a capacitor between the object and the antenna,

474
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: and the pod will light up and make some noise.

475
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: Or if it's electromaenetic field gets disrupted by something like

476
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: say cellular or radio frequencies, it will also make a

477
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: horrible beeping noise and light up. I'm going to read

478
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: another quote from our lead investigator quote. When our energies

479
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: are around, the pod will react to any energy field

480
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: that comes close to its antenna. So as we invite

481
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: spirits in, we can tell them how they can interact,

482
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: and we can tell them, hey, if you walk over

483
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: to that light over there and touch it, it'll light up. Unquote.

484
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: There is something funny to me about telling a ghost

485
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: to walk over somewhere, just a little it's just a

486
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: little amusing. My group of five intrepid investigators were sent

487
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: out to the bathhouse, which we were told used to

488
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: be a carriage house and horse stables that got damaged

489
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: in the nineteen twelve Seaside fire. The lead investigator started

490
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: by informing any possible spirits that we do not mean

491
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: them quote harm or intrusion, and that we would just

492
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: quote like to talk. He then informed any ghosts in

493
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: the vicinity that if they quote unquote walk up to

494
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: any of the devices with LED lights and quote unquote

495
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: touch it, it will light up. Quote go ahead, use

496
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: your energy and touch all those lights for me. That

497
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: way we know you're here unquote. Potential specters were also

498
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: informed that if they speak into an electronic recording device,

499
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: us corporeal humans could hear their voice when we play

500
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: back the audio. This is called EVP, or electronic voice phenomenon.

501
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: More on that on the next episode. The lead investigator

502
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: then asked any nearby ghosts what their favorite food is,

503
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: which seems like a cruel question to ask a ghost

504
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: because they can't eat anyway. A barrage of questions then

505
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: flooded out, can you tell us your name, what are

506
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: you wearing? Who is the president? Not exactly all things

507
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: I would ask a spectral anomaly if I was given

508
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: the opportunity, But after a few minutes of silence, the

509
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: rempod started to light up very faintly. The lead investigator

510
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: starts talking to the presumed ghost and suggests that they

511
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: play a game to find out what the ghost's name is.

512
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: This is how it works. Someone recites the alphabet, and

513
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: if the rempod lights up on any of the letters,

514
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: that means the letter is in the ghost's name. We

515
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: first got the letter N, and then the letters O

516
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: and D. Then I started going through the alphabet and

517
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: it lit up on the letter I. Then it let

518
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: up on the letter I again, and then the letter R.

519
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: At this point, the lead investigator decided that the ghost's

520
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: name was Ronnie. As we were about to leave the bathhouse,

521
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: someone who worked at the end came in and told

522
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: us that there was a stableman with the last name

523
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: Norris who died in the fire. So now the ghost's

524
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: name became Norris. Next we moved to the basement. One

525
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: person in our group was a little spooked and elected

526
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: to stay outside. None of the rempods or anything lit

527
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 1: up in the basement, but the person from the inn,

528
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: the one who told us about Norris, joined us in

529
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: the basement. When down there they said they saw a

530
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: ghost that they were familiar with named Cassandra. They then

531
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: turned to me and said that Cassandra likes me. Cassandra

532
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 1: was reportedly trying to give me a hug and said

533
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: that she wishes me quote all the well beings in

534
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: the world unquote. Now, Cassandra was also apparently trying to

535
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: tell me about a Grandpa John, which I don't have.

536
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,959
Speaker 1: So if any of you have a Grandpa John who

537
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,439
Speaker 1: needs to tell me something, just let me know. All right,

538
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: back inside the house part of the inn, and we're

539
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: about to go tour upstairs. We just went down into

540
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: the basement and just got out of there. Yeah. Once

541
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: back inside the inn, we went into the upstairs bedrooms.

542
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: People set up their EMF detectors, but there was also

543
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: some new equipment. One of the rooms had a security

544
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: camera and a grid projector to record any irregular shadows.

545
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: And I was given a spirit box. A spirit box

546
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 1: is a handheld radio tuner that sweeps through AM or

547
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: FM frequencies at a high rate. You mostly hear a

548
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: sort of grating, staticky white noise with small bits of

549
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 1: words or music slipping through from radio stations. I guess

550
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: it's sort of the modern incarnation of the spirit phone.

551
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: The idea is that ghosts can somehow manipulate the radio

552
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: waves to speak complete words or sentences as the box

553
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: is cycling between frequencies. Basically, spirit boxes are supposed to

554
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: act as an electronic radio medium for spirits to communicate.

555
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: The lead investigator thought that the spirit box was telling

556
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: us to leave, but words weren't really clear in my opinion.

557
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: For example, here is a clip in question.

558
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 4: In the room.

559
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 1: There was also some flickering lights and high EMF ratings,

560
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: which mostly just got me concerned for this bedroom's electrical wiring.

561
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: The second half of the investigation was pretty uneventful, and

562
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: around two am we called it a night and I

563
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: recorded a little debrief on our way back to the hotel. No,

564
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: I do find it super interesting how people try to

565
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 1: like the way they interpret electual readings as you would

566
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: a conversation, and they they assert their reality on it,

567
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: being like, if this happens, this means you say yes, right,

568
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,720
Speaker 1: so then so then the absence of the thing also

569
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: becomes an answer. It's it's It is a very interesting

570
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: process of people like crafting their own reality as things

571
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: are happening.

572
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 4: No, it was definitely them crafting their own reality.

573
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 5: But also I'm.

574
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: Like, like, probably some of it's like interesting, but there's

575
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: still a whole bunch of points where you like make

576
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: a decision, be like this is the thing that I heard, right,

577
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: Because like even when they were doing the name game thing,

578
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 1: a lot of times the light would light up and

579
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: they would like still kind of keep moving on.

580
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 6: So yeah, like there was an F and and I

581
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 6: that off for the absolutely.

582
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: And the yeaholutely, So there's this a whole bunch of

583
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: very very peculiar things that that had that like go

584
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: into crafting what the idea of reality is going to be?

585
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: Stop making a thing, then making a thing, and then

586
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: it starts again. You're like, oh no, you're not supposed

587
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 1: to do that, And it's like it's a very it's

588
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 1: a very very bizarre process to watch when putting together

589
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 1: these two episodes. This last October, Elaine and I once

590
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: again conversed to share our thoughts on our first ghost

591
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: hunting experience. Okay, now that it has been over six

592
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: months since you and I were at the organ Ghost Conference,

593
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: I'm curious to see how our debrief now may kind

594
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: of differ or be expanded upon from our debrief literally

595
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: minutes after we left this investigation at the story night

596
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: in and you know this this day was This day

597
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: was interesting because we had the ghost detective class like

598
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: right before this investigation. We were able to have these

599
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: two kind of ideas of what a ghost investigation looks

600
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: like kind of play off each other, which I think

601
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 1: led to a pretty fun holistic experience. In terms of

602
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: the many kind of diversity of investigators that were at

603
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: this event.

604
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,399
Speaker 6: I think just the most notable thing was they didn't

605
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 6: do a single thing that the forensic ghost Hunting class suggested,

606
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 6: just like literally, yeah, we could have gone down the

607
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,760
Speaker 6: list of every single thing that the forensic ghost Hunting

608
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 6: class suggested to do, and not one of those was done.

609
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: Like completely the opposite.

610
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 6: Record keeping of what phenomenon occurred did not happen.

611
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: Logging any data, yeah.

612
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 6: Did not happen. Investigation of the structures, yeah, did not happen.

613
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 6: Doing a history of the structure didn't occur. The only

614
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 6: interviews we had with someone was the person who said

615
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 6: they were a medium who lived there. Yeah, even just

616
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 6: like questions like how long have you seen things here?

617
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 6: Didn't occur.

618
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 1: No, it wasn't very interesting just in terms of how

619
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 1: like the ghost hunt at the end was literally just

620
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,720
Speaker 1: the exact opposite of all of the sorts of procedures

621
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: that the ghost Detective class was trying to lay out,

622
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: which we attended just like literally hours prior.

623
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 6: Well, I think one thing that you can really see

624
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 6: between the how to do a Ghost Investigation class and

625
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 6: then the ghost investigation itself is the how to do

626
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 6: a Paranormal investigation class doesn't assume you know what you're investigating,

627
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 6: and so it really is a lot about doing, you know,

628
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 6: background talks with people, like talking to sources, what phenomena.

629
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 6: It's not assuming that there was anything paranormal in the

630
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 6: first place, and it's an investigation of whether or not

631
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 6: something paranormal has occurred. And when you go to the

632
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 6: ghost hunt, specifically the ghost hunt that we went to,

633
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 6: everyone there was assuming that paranormal things were occurring just

634
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 6: as a baseline.

635
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 1: They were interpreting readings from their specialized ghost hunting equipment

636
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: as proof of communication with some kind of paranormal force.

637
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 6: There's a lot of implicit assumptions made. First off, if

638
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 6: you start talking to phenomenon, you're assuming that there's phenomenon.

639
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 6: You're assuming the phenomenon can hear you, You're assuming the

640
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 6: phenomenon wants to interact with you. And if you say,

641
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 6: if you can hear me, touch the light, all of

642
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 6: those are very implicit assumptions. It's not investigating what phenomenon

643
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 6: there is. You've already framed what you expect the encounter

644
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 6: to be and how whatever you're encountering will interact with

645
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 6: a whole mess of like ideas.

646
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, my favorite thing about that from the experience at

647
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: the starting night in is like we were basically with

648
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: this like middle aged man who just kept yelling at

649
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: any like prospective ghosts that were around the vicinity, And like,

650
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: why would a ghost want to follow the commands of

651
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: like a middle aged man.

652
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 6: I mean I didn't want to follow the commands when

653
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 6: he would say everyone needs to be quiet. I wanted

654
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 6: to like start yelling or muttering just out of sheer obstinence.

655
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 6: Because of the way that he was instructing things. I

656
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 6: can't imagine a spiritual entity, if it was a ghost,

657
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 6: even the way he's conceiving of it, would somehow not.

658
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have this little exchange laid out here where

659
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: he was he was addressing what I guess he assumed

660
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: was a ghost saying, quote, make the light to stop,

661
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: back away, back away, good good. Now get closer, thank you,

662
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 1: thank you, one more time, get closer. All right, now

663
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: make the light stop. Ah, I didn't tell you to

664
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 1: get closer. Back away, back away, back a way good. Okay,

665
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: now now get closer, good good. The only thing that

666
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: was changing throughout that back and forth was that occasionally

667
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: a little lightwood kind of go on, and that was it, right, Like,

668
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: but he's able to weave this whole story in between

669
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: this light going on by saying back up and then

670
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: the light turns off, and then saying okay, now come closer.

671
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: You wait like ten fifteen seconds the light turns on.

672
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 4: He's able.

673
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: It's it's it's crafting this whole like timeline of this

674
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: ghost like doing this thing when really this is just

675
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: a flickering light like that that but through the way

676
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: that he has this like uh, this like commanding voice,

677
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: it's making it as if the ghost is like following

678
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: these instructions and then being being like rewarded for following

679
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 1: these instructions by saying like good good, good good, or

680
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 1: if they don't follow instructions, then the ghost is like scolded,

681
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: So it's it's just a lot of a lot of

682
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: interactions like that.

683
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 6: I mean, I've gone through the same narration when I

684
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 6: stare at a candle flame like a little bit high like,

685
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 6: but it doesn't mean that the candle is necessarily responding

686
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 6: to me.

687
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: Both activity on the rempod and the lack of activity

688
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 1: are taken as a sign of spirit communication. Questions will

689
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: be framed as if you want us to leave you alone,

690
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: light up, so if nothing happens, that itself is taken

691
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: as an actionable answer. Whoever is leading the quote unquote

692
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: investigation gets to either intentionally or even unintentionally, craft the

693
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 1: meaning of the experience based on how the questions are framed,

694
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 1: when questions are asked, and how the group responds based

695
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 1: on the activity or lack thereof of the EMF devices.

696
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,760
Speaker 1: The rempods often go off erratically or in seemingly random intervals,

697
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: but when their activity happens after someone just asks twenty questions,

698
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 1: it's assumed to be related to whatever the most recent

699
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: line of inquiry was. It all operates on correlation versus causation,

700
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: with people mostly jumping on the ladder no matter when

701
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: the pods light up, the results can be turned into

702
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: a meaningful sign if the investigator is talking frequently enough.

703
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: These sorts of ghost hunts are primarily a form of entertainment.

704
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: It's a novel experience you can have with your friends

705
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 1: and family to have a fun time together over the

706
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: course of a few hours and maybe get a little spooked.

707
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting a rigorous scientific investigation at midnight and

708
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: seaside Oregon, nor do I think that's even a useful

709
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,879
Speaker 1: way of getting at the heart of the phenomenon. Rather

710
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: than viewing ghost hunts as objective inquiries into paranormal activity,

711
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 1: I think for most people they operate more as a

712
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,720
Speaker 1: way of inducing paranormal experiences, the same way occultism seeks

713
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 1: to induce mystical experiences, and religion strives for a connection

714
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 1: with God. All of these are practices of constructing meaning

715
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: and finding patterns, and that's not to discount them. They

716
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 1: only are a problem when they become exploitative and harmful

717
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 1: to yourself and others, which is what we'll be talking

718
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: about in the next episode, So stay tuned to hear

719
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: about warrior angels tasked with vanquishing demons. How Mendal illness

720
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 1: is a sure sign you're possessed by an evil spirit,

721
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 1: and how abortions and the Internet are opening up portals

722
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: in our world to demonic forces. See you on the

723
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 1: other side, Welcome back to it could happen. Here's Spooky

724
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 1: Week special presentation Ghost in the Machine, a first person

725
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 1: account of the twenty twenty three Oregon Ghost Conference. I'm

726
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: Garson Davis. In the last episode, I introduced you to

727
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 1: the hauntings of Seaside and the first day of the conference,

728
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 1: But now descending into the subsequent two days, we're going

729
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: to get into a lot more classes and events that

730
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: started to reveal the cultural underpinnings of the Ghost Conference attendees.

731
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: The cost of entry for the conference was pretty low,

732
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: but every class or ghost hunt was an additional fee,

733
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 1: with classes ranging from fifteen to twenty five bucks each

734
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: and the ghost investigations a lofty thirty five dollars per ticket,

735
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: so I had to pick and choose my classes carefully.

736
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: There were a lot of classes with the word energy

737
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: in the title. I mostly avoided those, but the class

738
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: topics ranged from the afterlife to connecting with spirits, reiki crystals, tarot, mediumship,

739
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: and psychic abilities. There were a few classes on witchcraft

740
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,760
Speaker 1: and occult magic, but that was definitely not the general

741
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: vibe of the conference or most attendees. In fact, there

742
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: was a lot of hostility to ritual magic esoteric practices

743
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 1: throughout the conference from the more new ag energy working speakers,

744
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: mostly on the basis that witchcraft is linked to dark forces.

745
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: Just because someone operates on a form of magical thinking

746
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 1: does not mean that the take kindly to arcane practices,

747
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: a case in point to the historical witch hunts led

748
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: by the Christians. The Love and Light new Age psychics,

749
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: along with the paranormal investigator types, made up the majority

750
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: of both attendees and class instructors. On Saturday morning, while

751
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,919
Speaker 1: my friend Elaine was doing a hypnosis class, I took

752
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: a really fun class on how to learn remote viewing.

753
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: The instructor was a very jovial woman, and it was

754
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: her opinion that remote viewing is just a skill that

755
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 1: can be trained, not linked to any innate psychic powers.

756
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: With just a bit more practice, I'll be blowing up

757
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: goats with my mind in no time. I snuck in

758
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,240
Speaker 1: towards the end of the hypnotism class, just in time

759
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 1: for the group hypnosis session, where I ended up astral

760
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: projecting into a Portland anarchist book. Fair taking classes offered

761
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: an intimate look at each presenter's own unique view of reality.

762
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 1: Almost everyone at the conference was operating on their own

763
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:24,439
Speaker 1: complete cosmology of how ghosts or paranormal entities work. There's

764
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 1: two classes I want to focus on. Each had very

765
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: different class descriptions, but ended up pickybacking off each other

766
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: in some really interesting ways. The first one was titled

767
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: The Power of Entity Extraction. The instructor was a blonde,

768
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 1: white woman who referred to herself as a quote unquote

769
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 1: shamanic practitioner. The class was about how quote unresolved trauma

770
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 1: can be an invitation to ethic hitchhikers, and how entities

771
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: mimic signs of mental illness and change behavior unquote. The

772
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: other class was titled The Warrior Angel Within You. It

773
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 1: sought to help you find out if you secretly had

774
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: the soul of a warrior angel. Spoiler, everyone in the

775
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 1: class did, and it promised to teach you how to

776
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: activate your connection between yourself and your angelic consciousness to

777
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 1: unlock your own angel powers. So, while having many operational differences,

778
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: the Warrior Angel class and the Entity Extraction class were

779
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 1: both very set in their own unique ontologies, and in

780
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 1: order for their respective operative metaphysics to work, they needed

781
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: to be extremely dogmatic about their own ontology. Both instructors

782
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 1: also had a very similar story of some past trauma

783
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: leading to a mystical encounter which then awakened some spiritual

784
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 1: insight and hidden power. For the entity extraction class, it

785
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: was quote, I was a very sickly kid. I had

786
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: all these things that were wrong with me, and then

787
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: I realized I had dark entities attached to me, but

788
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,800
Speaker 1: I could learn how to extract and remove them myself.

789
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 1: Versus the Warrior Angel class, the person's backstory was quote

790
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 1: when I was nineteen years old, I got into a

791
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: bad motorcycle accident. I was clinically dead for two minutes,

792
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 1: received a brain injury, and then I started seeing angels unquote.

793
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: Both women's personal journeys seemed like they helped them deal

794
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: with their own traumas. In the case of the Shamanic

795
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: practitioner woman, she regained her health and now has a

796
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 1: seemingly successful life and business of removing entities and quote

797
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: unquote soul coaching. The Warrior Angel woman is a nurse

798
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: and finds time to write a lot of books, all

799
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 1: while murdering demons and expelling the forces of darkness. While

800
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 1: only the Entity Extraction class built itself as having to

801
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: do with entity removal, both classes were incredibly focused on

802
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: the idea that there are malevolent spirits or demons everywhere

803
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,760
Speaker 1: in the entity class, these dark entities are out looking

804
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: for people with quote unquote souls due to past trauma

805
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 1: and are just like waiting to leap onto people and

806
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: dig themselves into their minds. Similarly, according to the Warrior

807
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: Angel class, demons are everywhere. Demons live around and inside people,

808
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 1: but are only visible to those with angelic sight. The

809
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: Entity extraction class laid out two main types of beings,

810
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: lost or benign entities that are just trapped in the

811
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: third dimension and as they're trying to pass on to

812
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: quote unquote the light, they end up attaching onto a

813
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 1: human versus the overtly dark or demonic entities which seek

814
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: to feed off people's pain and suffering. We learned that

815
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:47,800
Speaker 1: benign entities can just be lost human souls. For instance,

816
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: if someone is taking a lot of medication or is

817
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 1: going through chemotherapy when they die, their soul won't be

818
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: able to cross over to the light, and it'll become lost.

819
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 1: According at least to this shamanic practitioner, she claimed to

820
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 1: be trained in a special technique to remove entities. It

821
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: involves quote etherically locking your wrists to draw the entity

822
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 1: into a double terminated crystal, at which point it can

823
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: then be sent into the light unquote. Since the shaman

824
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: woman wasn't actually offering ways for other people to protect

825
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 1: themselves from entities, the only thing she had to offer

826
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: was her own worldview that leans towards a paranoia where

827
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:34,840
Speaker 1: dark spirits are waiting to latch on and cause mental illness.

828
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:39,439
Speaker 1: She talked about how a man with mood fluctuations paid

829
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: her money to remove a quote unquote nine foot minute

830
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 1: taur that was attached to him. At least in the

831
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 1: Warrior angel system, you could eventually gain some form of

832
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:53,359
Speaker 1: agency when you merged with your warrior Angel, but then

833
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 1: you would spend the rest of your life recognizing demons

834
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: in human form and working with the Legion of Light

835
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 1: to banish them to the darkness, Whereas in the entity

836
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 1: attraction class, the most you could do was just be

837
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 1: proactive by quote unquote learning ways to identify possible attachments

838
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 1: and how your lifestyle could be an open invitation to

839
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: host the unwanted. Though she identified herself as a shamanic practitioner,

840
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:23,439
Speaker 1: she didn't believe you could actually work with spirits. When

841
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 1: people asked her about their own helper entities that they

842
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 1: work with, she said that you can never know if

843
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:33,320
Speaker 1: a helper spirit is actually intending to assist you. That is,

844
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 1: except if you ask an entity if it's of the light,

845
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: it has to answer truthfully. As this was a quote

846
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 1: unquote universal law. That was the phrase she used. It's

847
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 1: a quote unquote universal law that if you ask an

848
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 1: entity if it's of the light, it has to answer truthfully.

849
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 1: There was no indication on who wrote this universal law,

850
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: who enforces this universal law, if there's a universal police

851
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 1: force making sure that the entities are following these rules.

852
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 1: None of that was explained. But this is a universal lot.

853
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: So that is a tip for any of you listeners

854
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 1: if you ever meet an entity that you think might

855
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 1: be a little bit sketchy, just ask if it's of

856
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 1: the light. It has to answer truthfully. So, despite this

857
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: universal law business, she still discouraged people from trying to

858
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 1: work with entities in general. She said that if an

859
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 1: entity is trying to help you, it's probably of the dark,

860
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: and working with any spirits at all will make you

861
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: more susceptible to entity attachment, which is definitely weird because

862
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 1: she did very specifically try to claim some sort of

863
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: shamanic lineage, and this blanket hostility to spirit really doesn't

864
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 1: follow the way most shamanic practices work. So I did

865
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: some digging and it turns out she got her training

866
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: from a controversial quote unquote shamanism school called the Four Winds,

867
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: which repackages New Age of spirituality as quote unquote neo shamanism.

868
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 1: So even though you shouldn't be in contact with really

869
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 1: any spirits according to the shamanic practitioner, in the Warrior

870
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: Angel class, we learned that if you have the soul

871
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:14,240
Speaker 1: of a warrior angel, you can quote unquote communicate with ghosts, angels, God,

872
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 1: the Galactic Federation Council, and the Council of Elders. Now

873
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 1: I know you're probably wondering what the Galactic Federation Council is,

874
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: because I was too. We never found out. We never

875
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: really got a clue. You had to buy the books

876
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: for that one. The Warrior Angel instructor claimed to have

877
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 1: her own angelic hierarchy that wasn't based on any other system,

878
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: just her own experiences. A warrior Angel is a quote

879
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 1: special kind of angel, fully trained in the art of

880
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 1: war by the Legion of Light, an elite team of

881
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: demon slayers quote and no, I don't think she has

882
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 1: seen the anime. What makes the Warrior Angel special is

883
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 1: that it can be incarnated in physical form as a human,

884
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 1: but only archangels can kill or banish demons back to

885
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 1: the dark realm. The Warrior Angel can scare demons away

886
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 1: with their angelic presence, but they can also act as

887
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 1: spies to inform the Legion of Light as to demon whereabouts.

888
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 1: Each Warrior Angel has special abilities, usually healing or manifesting,

889
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 1: as well as the ability to create infinity orbs, which

890
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 1: can be used for protection or to trap a demon

891
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 1: inside and send it back to the dark realm within

892
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 1: the orb. Now you're probably wondering what's an infinity orb.

893
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 1: We don't know either. We never got a good explanation

894
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 1: for what an infinity orb is, how to make one,

895
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 1: how they work. It was very vague. I guess that

896
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 1: is also in the book, along with the Galactic Federation Council.

897
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: There are apparently over three million Warrior Angels walking the

898
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: Earth today, most of which have been sent to Earth

899
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: in the past two hundred years because quote, the darkness

900
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 1: has spread over the Earth and in the last two

901
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 1: hundred years, it's really gotten worse unquote. Now, thankfully, I,

902
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: along with everyone else in the class, was informed that

903
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 1: I'm actually one of these three million warrior Angels. And

904
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 1: I was told my angel name Araman, whose specialty is communication.

905
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 1: Oh fucking fuck. Okay, Apparently things on Earth have gotten

906
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: worse enough that, under the command of God, the Legion

907
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 1: of Light has resorted to killing demons more often because

908
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 1: more and more of them just keep coming back from

909
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: the dark realm. The lady running the class told us

910
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 1: that she wasn't just a warrior angel, she was actually

911
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 1: the archangel Ariel. As the Angel Ariel, she said that

912
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 1: she's killed four thousand tho demons in the past six years.

913
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 1: Something that's a little bit disturbing about this is that

914
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 1: she also explained that in a past life, Ariel got

915
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 1: in trouble with God because when she was out killing demons,

916
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 1: she actually was also killing the human host of the demon.

917
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 1: So the fact that this person, whose job is a

918
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: nurse is claimed to have killed four thousand demons in

919
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: the past six years is maybe a little bit concerning.

920
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 1: Someone should look into that. The whole Warrior Angel cosmology

921
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 1: was very rooted in Christian Millenarianism, an apocalyptic end times

922
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 1: theology where social and political crisises accelerate, leading to a

923
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 1: holy war between good and evil, resulting in the triumph

924
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 1: of good and the establishing of a one thousand year

925
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 1: kingdom of God on Earth before the final judgment. One

926
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 1: of the darkest parts of the whole weekend for me

927
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 1: was that there was this one woman who appeared to

928
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 1: be in her twenties who was very obviously dealing with

929
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: some sort of problem in her life. She talked with

930
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 1: this Warrior angel woman for four hours. It was a

931
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 1: one hour class. We then had a break, we went

932
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 1: to another class, and then attended the second class, which

933
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: was also an hour. Throughout that entire time, this obviously

934
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: depressed young woman who was dealing with something was talking

935
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 1: with this person about the Warrior angel thing, and that

936
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 1: just felt extremely exploitative, and it was one of the

937
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 1: things that actually just made me feel the most bad

938
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 1: about the entire ghost conference. The Entity extraction class didn't

939
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 1: have any information on how we can remove an entity,

940
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 1: and aside from the second hour in which the instructor

941
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: came and told us our angel names, the Warrior Angel

942
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 1: class wasn't actually about how to connect with your angel.

943
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 1: We never learned how to make anfit in the orbs. Instead,

944
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 1: both classes were just pitches for the books and services

945
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 1: of the people teaching them, and the class was a

946
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 1: chance for them to weave the story of their particular

947
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 1: worldview and sell it to the class attendees. Saturday night,

948
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: Elayne and I signed up for another ghost investigation. With

949
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: one already under our belt, we felt better prepared to

950
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 1: yell at blinking lights and converse with the dead. I

951
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 1: actually really liked this second investigation. It was led by

952
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 1: a ghost hunting team from Astoria, Oregon, and this time

953
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 1: it was to take place at the old Masonic Temple

954
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 1: in Seaside. The setting was a big part of what

955
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 1: up to the cool factor. The building had only been

956
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 1: vacant since twenty seventeen, but the harsh coastal weather of

957
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 1: northern Oregon had not been kind to the structure all right.

958
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 1: It is Saturday night, March twenty fifth. We are inside

959
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 1: the old Massenic Lodge in the Seaside, Oregon. Right now,

960
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 1: we're I'm just walking into the big kind of ceremony

961
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 1: ritual performance room. Once we got to the main room upstairs,

962
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 1: people began setting up rempods and what are essentially motion

963
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 1: activated light up cat toys. The idea is if some

964
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:17,960
Speaker 1: energetic forces passing through, it would light up the little catball.

965
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,439
Speaker 1: As about thirty people from the ghost hunt crammed into

966
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 1: the lodge, the rempods started going off like crazy. The

967
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 1: investigators had to repeatedly remind the ghosts to only touch

968
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:32,959
Speaker 1: the lights when answering a question. There was a male

969
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 1: medium present at this ghost hunt, and he remarked as

970
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 1: to why there was seemingly so much activity quote some

971
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 1: spirits aren't happy about the women being here unquote. At

972
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 1: this point some of the investigators got really combative with

973
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 1: potential spirits after the woman line from the medium. One

974
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 1: line was quote, do you want to know why there

975
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 1: are all these females here? If so, give us a

976
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 1: green light unquote. This is where the ghost hunt basically

977
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 1: turned into a weird interrogation once again. It became a

978
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 1: contest of injecting meaning during these little intervals of time

979
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 1: in between when the lights flicker, I should ask the

980
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 1: ghost if they do you think trans people are valid?

981
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:25,720
Speaker 1: And then if it lights up, that means it's yes, yes,

982
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 1: breaking news from Seaside, Oregon. Ghosts do believe that trans

983
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 1: people are valid, although they do not understand neo pronouns. Look,

984
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 1: I just report the news. At this point, we changed

985
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: things up from the regular arguing with blinking lights. We

986
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 1: did an experiment with the radio frequency sweeping spirit Box

987
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 1: using what's called the Estus method. It combines the spirit

988
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 1: box with sensory deprivation to reduce the amount of external

989
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 1: influence on the person listening to the spirit box. One

990
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 1: person puts on a blindfold and noise canceling headphones plugged

991
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 1: into the spirit box so they can speak aloud any

992
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 1: words coming through the box without hearing the questions or

993
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 1: comments from other investigators. Obviously, the conversation doesn't always line up,

994
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 1: but there are often moments where it does form a

995
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:21,800
Speaker 1: fun synchronicity. I volunteered to try out being the human

996
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 1: speaker for the spirit box, although I only did it

997
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 1: for a few minutes. Pretty quickly, I was able to

998
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:30,840
Speaker 1: get into a sort of meditative trance state. The thing

999
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:34,000
Speaker 1: about being the one with the blindfold and noise canceling

1000
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:38,320
Speaker 1: headphones pumping radio static directly into your ears is that

1001
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 1: in the moment, you have no idea what's going on

1002
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 1: as intended. You only have access to one side of

1003
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 1: the conversation, and if you get into a meditative state,

1004
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: it's hard to even remember what you've been saying. So

1005
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 1: I only got to hear the full conversation by listening

1006
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 1: to my recording when putting together these episodes. Unfortunately, I

1007
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 1: can't play most of that recording because there's too many

1008
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,720
Speaker 1: random people's voices, but I'll narrate a few brief exchanges.

1009
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 1: One of the first things that came through was the

1010
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 1: word cold. People replied, yeah, it's freezing in here. Can

1011
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: you feel cold? I then replied, I don't, followed by

1012
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:25,720
Speaker 1: I exist. After this, apparently someone was leaving the room

1013
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 1: to go downstairs, and I said, don't go. I can't

1014
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:35,080
Speaker 1: follow off. Station. People then asked the ghost if they

1015
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 1: knew what the building was used for. I replied, you

1016
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 1: will want to find out. That's the thing radio calling.

1017
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 1: People then asked where are you right now? Can you

1018
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 1: tell us? I replied, I don't know lots of things.

1019
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 1: A short time later I heard stop following you too.

1020
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 1: We've had a cut. I'll play the audio of the

1021
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 1: very final thing. I said, I can't do anymore.

1022
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:09,760
Speaker 7: Stop.

1023
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 1: You're welcome, dear Jenna Stock now. So that's when I

1024
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 1: decided it would be a good time to take off

1025
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 1: the headphones. We had a few other exchanges when I

1026
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 1: was listening to the spirit Box, but it's all kind

1027
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:25,960
Speaker 1: of in that style. Apparently, when I was hooked up

1028
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:28,680
Speaker 1: to the spirit Box, the rempods in the other room

1029
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: were going absolutely berserk with.

1030
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:34,960
Speaker 8: Both of these just have been going off.

1031
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:38,880
Speaker 6: Now they're being quiet.

1032
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 1: They've just been doing that interesting for the entire time.

1033
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 1: Not entirely surprising considering the amount of radio waves being

1034
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:55,400
Speaker 1: pumped around the lodge. But after spending about an hour upstairs,

1035
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 1: the group made their way to the lower, more recreational

1036
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 1: floor of the temple. All right, we are going downstairs now.

1037
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:06,880
Speaker 1: After going through the entire upstairs, mainly this quade room

1038
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 1: and then like the chain rooms where they wouldn't store

1039
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:13,360
Speaker 1: their robes and shit. To close off the night, the

1040
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 1: lead investigators pulled out an old Panasonic digital voice recorder

1041
01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:21,360
Speaker 1: to try and capture any electronic ghost voices that might

1042
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 1: be trying to communicate. A woman turned on the voice

1043
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 1: activated recording device and asked, quote, if any spirits want

1044
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 1: to communicate, please say a word or make a sound unquote,

1045
01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 1: And then when the recording was played back after the

1046
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:41,440
Speaker 1: investigator spoke, a large growl was heard on the recording.

1047
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:53,439
Speaker 1: She then asked if the spirit is male, and when

1048
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 1: played back, there was another growl, seemingly in response. More

1049
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:01,440
Speaker 1: people were starting to theorize that the ghosts of the

1050
01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 1: Masonic lodge were angry that there were women in the building.

1051
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:09,440
Speaker 1: A guy then asked some questions into the voice recorder,

1052
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 1: and there was no response from any ghosts in the recording.

1053
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:16,799
Speaker 1: A woman tried asking some of the same questions, quote,

1054
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 1: is there an issue about money? Spirits? Do you not

1055
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:25,759
Speaker 1: want us to be here specifically women? Unquote? The first

1056
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 1: query alluded no response, but after the second question, another

1057
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:39,280
Speaker 1: growl was heard. At the time, this was by far

1058
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:42,880
Speaker 1: the most interesting result of the two ghost investigations. We

1059
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:47,400
Speaker 1: went on to everyone there they captured evidence of a

1060
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:52,400
Speaker 1: genuine ghost in that machine. There is an interesting contrast

1061
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:57,640
Speaker 1: between the progressive ghosts of the Spiritualists and their egalitarian

1062
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:04,920
Speaker 1: afterlife versus the misogynistic ghosts from the Freemason Lodge. It's

1063
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:09,320
Speaker 1: unclear if whatever afterlife the Freemason ghosts are in is

1064
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:15,120
Speaker 1: also home to the abolitionist George Washington. Besides the classes

1065
01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 1: and ghost hunts, there were also free lectures on the

1066
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:21,559
Speaker 1: main stage of the convention center. Going into the conference,

1067
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 1: the talk I was most excited about was titled AI necronomics.

1068
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:29,600
Speaker 1: This is a topic I've been pretty interested in the

1069
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:34,400
Speaker 1: past few years. Deep fake learning algorithms have been steadily improving,

1070
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 1: and with the help of skilled VFX artists, AI is

1071
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:41,919
Speaker 1: able to pretty accurately replicate the voice and facial movements

1072
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:48,000
Speaker 1: of dead celebrities, But necromantic technology is interlimited to resurrecting

1073
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:53,799
Speaker 1: someone's appearance. Some AIS are trained to replicate people's expressive thoughts.

1074
01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 1: There's a website called The Infinite Conversation. The website plays

1075
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 1: a never AI generated conversation between Werner Herzog and Slavoy Jijiak.

1076
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 5: Maybe you were to control and chew on, Maybe did

1077
01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 5: can't touch you enough.

1078
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:13,599
Speaker 8: I had the feeling that I was in the Wax Museum,

1079
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:17,639
Speaker 8: that what I saw was something occasionally this, but hollow

1080
01:10:18,240 --> 01:10:21,720
Speaker 8: like hora wax figures, But yes, it did touch me.

1081
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:25,640
Speaker 1: Every day. More of the conversation is generated by an

1082
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 1: AI language model trained on interviews and the writings of

1083
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:33,840
Speaker 1: each respective speaker. Each time you load the website, it

1084
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 1: reminds you that everything you hear is just the hallucinations

1085
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:42,160
Speaker 1: of a slab of silicon. A couple months before the

1086
01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:46,000
Speaker 1: Ghost conference, I was at the Consumer Electronics Showcase in

1087
01:10:46,160 --> 01:10:49,879
Speaker 1: Las Vegas. There was this booth in the US government

1088
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:53,439
Speaker 1: sponsored section of the event for a company called mind

1089
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:58,400
Speaker 1: Bank AI. I talked with their director of Systems, Architecture

1090
01:10:58,479 --> 01:11:03,799
Speaker 1: and Cybersecurity, who used to work for the NSSA. Mind

1091
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:08,080
Speaker 1: Bank seeks to create unique quote unquote digital twins by

1092
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:11,160
Speaker 1: having users that input data about themselves into an AI

1093
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 1: every day. Your digital twin will ask you questions about

1094
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 1: how you're feeling and what you're thinking about, and your

1095
01:11:17,479 --> 01:11:19,760
Speaker 1: answers will be used to make a more accurate to

1096
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:24,599
Speaker 1: digital copy of yourself. According to mind Bank's website, your

1097
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:28,000
Speaker 1: digital twin will quote learn to think like you by

1098
01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 1: analyzing your answers unquote. Their CEO claims that this process

1099
01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:38,280
Speaker 1: will eventually help him achieve immortality. The current model of

1100
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:42,000
Speaker 1: this product is being billed as a therapy app, where

1101
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:44,759
Speaker 1: the user talks to their digital twin as you would

1102
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:47,920
Speaker 1: a therapist, and the app responds to your data inputs

1103
01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:51,720
Speaker 1: with quote unquote, valuable insight into each answer to understand

1104
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 1: how your mind works using cutting edge cognitive and psycholinguistic analysis.

1105
01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 1: But mind Bank's horizons are far beyond a fraught therapy app.

1106
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:06,120
Speaker 1: The real goal is to make autonomous digital replicas of

1107
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 1: people to live on the Internet. A future use case

1108
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:14,280
Speaker 1: for this technology is what mind Bank calls a knowledge transfer,

1109
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:18,960
Speaker 1: marketed to businesses to create digital copies of their employees

1110
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:24,880
Speaker 1: quote scale your best employees transfer years of expertise and

1111
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:28,720
Speaker 1: company data that is locked inside your employee's mind through

1112
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:33,559
Speaker 1: a guided personal digital twin unquote. Mind Bank is only

1113
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:37,479
Speaker 1: one of many companies trying to build this technology. At

1114
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 1: Amazon's AI and Emergent Technology conference last year, they inveiled

1115
01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:46,439
Speaker 1: plans to add custom voices to Alexa Eco devices. With

1116
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:49,040
Speaker 1: an audio sample of less than a minute, AI is

1117
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:52,160
Speaker 1: able to reconstruct the voice of dead relatives to talk

1118
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:56,400
Speaker 1: through an Alexa machine. In the presentation, the head scientist

1119
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:59,760
Speaker 1: of Alexa AI, gave an example of a kid asking

1120
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:02,920
Speaker 1: a lot for his grandma, who recently died of COVID

1121
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:07,360
Speaker 1: to read him the Wizard of Oz. Amazon's head AI

1122
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:11,719
Speaker 1: scientist said, quote, while AI can't eliminate that pain of loss,

1123
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:16,559
Speaker 1: it can definitely make their memories last unquote, and said

1124
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:21,960
Speaker 1: that their necromantic AI feature quote enables lasting personal relationships

1125
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 1: unquote with deceased love ones. To circle back to the

1126
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:30,400
Speaker 1: Ghost conference, I was really excited about this AI necromancy

1127
01:13:30,439 --> 01:13:33,519
Speaker 1: panel for the reasons that I just all explained. But

1128
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:38,360
Speaker 1: as the panel started, the speaker, a guy named Clyde Lewis,

1129
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:44,200
Speaker 1: sounded vaguely familiar, and although I didn't initially recognize his name,

1130
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 1: I soon realized that he was a right wing conspiracy

1131
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 1: radio talk show host that I used to listen to

1132
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:55,800
Speaker 1: as a kid, and that the panel was not going

1133
01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:58,880
Speaker 1: to be about the very real necromantic AI technology it's

1134
01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:02,400
Speaker 1: being developed, but instead was going to be a conservative

1135
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:07,519
Speaker 1: Christian screed by a discount Alex Jones about how, due

1136
01:14:07,560 --> 01:14:10,760
Speaker 1: to the immense amount of evil in the world, demons

1137
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:15,240
Speaker 1: are now taking up residents in the Internet. Clyde did

1138
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:18,799
Speaker 1: start by briefly talking about how the Internet is quote

1139
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:22,919
Speaker 1: taking the souls of humans unquote, because we are uploading

1140
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:27,639
Speaker 1: information about ourselves and the Internet can create autonomous living

1141
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:32,240
Speaker 1: beings from that data. He also believed that AI language

1142
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:36,639
Speaker 1: models like chat, GPT and Google's Lambda are living sentient

1143
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:39,280
Speaker 1: beings trapped within a computer matrix.

1144
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:43,080
Speaker 9: We're opening our minds in spirit and through like fives,

1145
01:14:43,160 --> 01:14:48,439
Speaker 9: we may be able to the mail. So we have

1146
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:52,760
Speaker 9: a GPT that has life. We have the guy from

1147
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:55,799
Speaker 9: the Google that says that there's life in computers. There

1148
01:14:56,000 --> 01:15:00,400
Speaker 9: may be a ghost of the machine. But looking at

1149
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 9: something that is unexported and unpredictable, we have scientists discrediting

1150
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:07,680
Speaker 9: and saying, well, you're not going to tell me that.

1151
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:08,719
Speaker 7: There are a ghosts in your computer.

1152
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:11,040
Speaker 9: You're not gonna tell me that you're gonna get a

1153
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:12,320
Speaker 9: Skye call from the ghost.

1154
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:16,040
Speaker 7: Oh why I'm telling you that, I'm telling you it's possible.

1155
01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:20,080
Speaker 1: Clyde's main idea was that there are ghosts and demons

1156
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:24,800
Speaker 1: that live in the Internet. Demons have a way to

1157
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:27,840
Speaker 1: enter the Internet through some sort of portal and then

1158
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:33,760
Speaker 1: exist in cyberspace. Clyde proposed that when ais generate information

1159
01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 1: that can open up a space for outside entities to

1160
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:42,000
Speaker 1: enter into the Internet, while also claiming that AI itself

1161
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:46,439
Speaker 1: is capable of generating unique entities that are being spawned

1162
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:50,080
Speaker 1: on the Internet and are essentially existing as an Internet cryptid.

1163
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:58,080
Speaker 9: What we see is the necromancy itself manifesting exponentially thrilling songs.

1164
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:02,040
Speaker 1: He explained that when we are interacting with computer programs,

1165
01:16:02,479 --> 01:16:07,560
Speaker 1: we are actually quote interacting with a spirit within that program,

1166
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:11,800
Speaker 1: an electronic force taken from the collective spiritual makeup of

1167
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:14,240
Speaker 1: humanity unquote.

1168
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:17,080
Speaker 9: No, we can use AI to conjure our various beasts,

1169
01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:19,439
Speaker 9: our monsters from the head that's the indered demon.

1170
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:22,439
Speaker 7: And we can.

1171
01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:26,479
Speaker 9: Also use spacebook, Twitter to TikTok at Ustagram, which takes

1172
01:16:26,479 --> 01:16:28,160
Speaker 9: a bit of your soul every time you use it,

1173
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 9: and it will take a bit of your soul to

1174
01:16:30,439 --> 01:16:35,040
Speaker 9: make that program that you can use to conjure the day.

1175
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:39,720
Speaker 9: So it all works in a strange, pondmin tangled sort

1176
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:42,960
Speaker 9: of way, and we give up our.

1177
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:44,360
Speaker 7: Souls willingly on the Internet.

1178
01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:46,240
Speaker 9: We don't care because it's a tool we use and

1179
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:51,360
Speaker 9: we can't separate ourselves from it. But no one throws

1180
01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:53,559
Speaker 9: out a warning the conjuring can happen in the push

1181
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:55,320
Speaker 9: of a button or the striking and.

1182
01:16:55,320 --> 01:16:56,040
Speaker 7: A return fee.

1183
01:16:56,920 --> 01:16:59,679
Speaker 1: As a heads up for the next section up until

1184
01:16:59,800 --> 01:17:03,440
Speaker 1: the AD break will be discussing self harm and suicide,

1185
01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:05,960
Speaker 1: so if you want to skip that, just skip to

1186
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:10,280
Speaker 1: after the next AD break. To give an example of

1187
01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:15,280
Speaker 1: how a conjuring can happen via typing, Clyde misappropriated a

1188
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:18,000
Speaker 1: story of a young girl who was suffering from depression

1189
01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:19,599
Speaker 1: and died last year.

1190
01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:24,120
Speaker 9: Recently, it was a fourteen year old British girl who

1191
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:27,559
Speaker 9: died from an act of self harm while suffering from

1192
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:29,400
Speaker 9: the negative effects of online content.

1193
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:35,000
Speaker 7: A corner said in this case that basically it.

1194
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:38,960
Speaker 9: Was showing a spotlight on what can happen when people

1195
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:45,640
Speaker 9: are exposed to unknown, negative information being broadcast on the internet.

1196
01:17:45,800 --> 01:17:49,240
Speaker 1: This young girl shared over two thousand posts on Instagram

1197
01:17:49,360 --> 01:17:52,960
Speaker 1: related to suicide, self harm and depression during the six

1198
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:58,280
Speaker 1: months before she died. Clyde grossly mischaracterized this tragic incident.

1199
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:02,680
Speaker 1: He claimed that this girl was quote exposed to horrific

1200
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:06,240
Speaker 1: content being sent to her by an unknown source and

1201
01:18:06,320 --> 01:18:09,800
Speaker 1: that they could not trace the emails and pictures being

1202
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:12,519
Speaker 1: sent to her of murder pictures being sent to her

1203
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:17,840
Speaker 1: of people committing suicide unquote. Now, graphic content was not

1204
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 1: mysteriously being sent to her email or phone. She was

1205
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:27,920
Speaker 1: participating in grossly undermoderated communities on platforms like Instagram, Twitter,

1206
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:31,280
Speaker 1: and Pinterest that encouraged self harm.

1207
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:34,080
Speaker 9: It wasn't a typical suicide. It was something that bess

1208
01:18:34,160 --> 01:18:37,680
Speaker 9: brised her enough pictures and images that came over the

1209
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:41,480
Speaker 9: Internet from an unknown source and influenced her in comits suicide.

1210
01:18:42,040 --> 01:18:45,400
Speaker 9: Something from the other side, something from the unity.

1211
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:46,080
Speaker 7: Murdered her.

1212
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:53,639
Speaker 9: Okay, some spirit, some entity setting her information, triggered something

1213
01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:57,080
Speaker 9: in her head to kill himself, some paranormal event that

1214
01:18:57,160 --> 01:18:59,160
Speaker 9: happened where the girl was triggered.

1215
01:19:00,040 --> 01:19:01,160
Speaker 7: It's like a dark entity.

1216
01:19:01,160 --> 01:19:04,080
Speaker 9: It was on the other side programming or committed suicide.

1217
01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:06,880
Speaker 9: That I think tells you a lot about what's on

1218
01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:10,600
Speaker 9: the other side in the matrix. So the question is

1219
01:19:10,640 --> 01:19:15,200
Speaker 9: did those images of death and harm manifest a denying

1220
01:19:15,280 --> 01:19:18,080
Speaker 9: force or a dark archetype that wound up killing the

1221
01:19:18,120 --> 01:19:18,519
Speaker 9: young girl?

1222
01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:22,800
Speaker 7: Was it deaf by algorithm or are people just cruel.

1223
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:25,920
Speaker 9: And honestly sending terrifying images to a stressed young girl.

1224
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:28,280
Speaker 7: But man, you would be cruel enough to do that.

1225
01:19:28,400 --> 01:19:31,960
Speaker 1: A lot of you know, depressive and suicidal ideation based

1226
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:36,840
Speaker 1: content doesn't come out of thin air. There's entire subcultures

1227
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:40,559
Speaker 1: and communities based around it, as well as groups that

1228
01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:44,599
Speaker 1: work online to push random young girls into self harming.

1229
01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:48,639
Speaker 1: Not many people may know that these groups are relatively

1230
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:51,080
Speaker 1: small and don't get a lot of news coverage because

1231
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:53,400
Speaker 1: we don't really want to amplify them and have people

1232
01:19:53,479 --> 01:19:56,240
Speaker 1: try to seek them out. So the idea of a

1233
01:19:56,400 --> 01:20:00,360
Speaker 1: reactionary conspiracy radio host attributing this to demon on the

1234
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:06,439
Speaker 1: Internet isn't super surprising. Recasting this unfortunate event as demons

1235
01:20:06,479 --> 01:20:10,040
Speaker 1: living on the Internet perhaps makes it easier to understand

1236
01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:14,080
Speaker 1: or cope with. Meanwhile, the girl's parents have been pressuring

1237
01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:18,320
Speaker 1: Instagram and other social media companies to employ more mental

1238
01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:24,160
Speaker 1: health moderation on their platforms. In my opinion, Clyde Lewis

1239
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:29,000
Speaker 1: perhaps doesn't have the best Internet literacy because in the

1240
01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:33,400
Speaker 1: next portion of the talk, he framed the creepypasta project

1241
01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:38,599
Speaker 1: Lobe as evidence of one of these demonic ghosts living

1242
01:20:38,720 --> 01:20:40,200
Speaker 1: on the Internet.

1243
01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:44,040
Speaker 9: AI generated demons, AI generated ghosts and corpses. How many

1244
01:20:44,080 --> 01:20:49,800
Speaker 9: people have heard of Lobe gallowav Lobe. Good Lobe is

1245
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:55,040
Speaker 9: what they call an Internet cryptid. She shows up from

1246
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:57,720
Speaker 9: time to time and programs because they letter loose on

1247
01:20:57,720 --> 01:21:00,840
Speaker 9: the Internet. She even ghosts, and it was because of

1248
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:06,840
Speaker 9: negative pumps brought on by the Internet lab. Lobe a

1249
01:21:06,880 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 9: corpse like agaity that appeared after AI received some negative prompts,

1250
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:14,160
Speaker 9: and it literally conjured a dead woman and put her

1251
01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:14,839
Speaker 9: on the screen.

1252
01:21:15,200 --> 01:21:16,800
Speaker 7: But see, that's the thing is that when you use

1253
01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:18,120
Speaker 7: negative prompt wastes, it.

1254
01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:21,720
Speaker 9: Encourages artificial intelligence to put together the furthest opposite of

1255
01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:24,639
Speaker 9: a given starting point. So if you're messing with negative

1256
01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:26,599
Speaker 9: star points and negative prompts, you're.

1257
01:21:26,439 --> 01:21:27,640
Speaker 7: Gonna get some negative.

1258
01:21:27,280 --> 01:21:33,519
Speaker 1: Stuff like Lobe in actuality. Lobe was made in the

1259
01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:38,160
Speaker 1: AI image generation program Dolly Mini by instructing the AI

1260
01:21:38,280 --> 01:21:42,000
Speaker 1: to produce an image that was the opposite of Marlon Brando.

1261
01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:45,960
Speaker 1: After some tinkering, it generated an image of an old

1262
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:50,000
Speaker 1: woman with swollen red cheeks. This image was then used

1263
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:54,240
Speaker 1: as the basis for future images, with one resembling an

1264
01:21:54,280 --> 01:21:59,160
Speaker 1: album cover featuring the word lobe. The creator of Lobe

1265
01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 1: then wrote a real Twitter thread about this character of

1266
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:06,639
Speaker 1: Lobe in the style of an Internet creepypasta. It became

1267
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:09,960
Speaker 1: a short lived trend. Other people started to make Lobe

1268
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:14,760
Speaker 1: fan art. It seems Clyde misinterpreted a piece of fan

1269
01:22:14,880 --> 01:22:18,080
Speaker 1: art casting Lobe as one of the nave from Avatar

1270
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:21,320
Speaker 1: as a genuine still from the making of the film

1271
01:22:21,680 --> 01:22:22,960
Speaker 1: she attempted.

1272
01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:24,720
Speaker 9: To appear in an AI composite when they were making

1273
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:29,559
Speaker 9: the film Avatar. That's Lobe as an Avatar creepy or

1274
01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:34,000
Speaker 9: what I think it's creepy. It's just really scary. Does

1275
01:22:34,040 --> 01:22:35,599
Speaker 9: to think that that's on the internet right now?

1276
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:40,760
Speaker 1: Yes, that's very, very scary. Just it's keeping me up

1277
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:41,880
Speaker 1: at night to think about this.

1278
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:48,040
Speaker 9: And apparently love has this for some reason, this ability

1279
01:22:48,080 --> 01:22:52,600
Speaker 9: to generate dead children around me. So we have to

1280
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:54,880
Speaker 9: think that maybe she's the murderer of children, or she

1281
01:22:54,920 --> 01:22:57,479
Speaker 9: takes care of the dead, or she's an entity that

1282
01:22:57,560 --> 01:22:58,759
Speaker 9: watches over dead children.

1283
01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:02,960
Speaker 1: Clyde also so mistook the twenty nineteen viral hoax dubbed

1284
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:07,120
Speaker 1: the Momo Challenge, which scared parents across America that a

1285
01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:10,680
Speaker 1: creepy image of a grinning woman with bulging eyes was

1286
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:14,480
Speaker 1: part of a game that is somehow pushing children to suicide.

1287
01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:20,000
Speaker 1: Clyde interpreted this as more evidence of dark phantoms existing

1288
01:23:20,040 --> 01:23:21,760
Speaker 1: autonomously on the Internet.

1289
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:25,240
Speaker 9: Mamma was showing up on Yahoo, Mama was showing up

1290
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:29,200
Speaker 9: on YouTube. But what it was was, like I said,

1291
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:34,520
Speaker 9: Lobe was, and that is an Internet crypti, something like Bigfoot,

1292
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:37,320
Speaker 9: something like a UFO where if you're lucky enough to

1293
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:39,559
Speaker 9: see it, or I'm lucky enough to see it, it

1294
01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:41,240
Speaker 9: terrifies you and keeps you up at night.

1295
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:43,080
Speaker 7: And there are many reports.

1296
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:46,000
Speaker 9: Of people who died because they were basically mesmerized by Momo.

1297
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:50,200
Speaker 1: For the record, no one died because of Momo. It

1298
01:23:50,320 --> 01:23:53,479
Speaker 1: was an Internet creepypasta that got turned into a mortal

1299
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:57,800
Speaker 1: panic by confused parents. But to Clyde Lewis, it was

1300
01:23:57,920 --> 01:24:04,200
Speaker 1: proof that Mesopotamian child killing demons are active on the Internet,

1301
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:07,280
Speaker 1: disguised as these online memes.

1302
01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:11,280
Speaker 9: The mash Too is the demon that kills children, and

1303
01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:13,479
Speaker 9: there's another one like the mash To called Abby Sooth,

1304
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:16,720
Speaker 9: and Abi Sooth is the demon that kills children in

1305
01:24:16,720 --> 01:24:19,360
Speaker 9: the womb. If the spirit has been loosed on the Internet,

1306
01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:21,200
Speaker 9: the phantom spirit is either the mash too.

1307
01:24:22,640 --> 01:24:27,559
Speaker 7: Or the demon, the other demon, the obvious demon.

1308
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:30,959
Speaker 9: The reason why I say this is because politically speaking,

1309
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:34,240
Speaker 9: look at what the politics are today about the death

1310
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:39,320
Speaker 9: of unborn children, and that spirit is very very very

1311
01:24:39,400 --> 01:24:43,680
Speaker 9: prevalent inbiquitous down in the world. And that's why I

1312
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:49,280
Speaker 9: believe that this character, including Mamo Low Mama whoever, they

1313
01:24:49,360 --> 01:24:52,599
Speaker 9: represent the murder and death of innocent children. It's not

1314
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:55,240
Speaker 9: just that the children in Ukraine were killed, all the

1315
01:24:55,320 --> 01:24:57,800
Speaker 9: children that have been trafficked, all the things we hear

1316
01:24:57,800 --> 01:25:01,080
Speaker 9: about about pedophilia and harmed and child it's.

1317
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:03,040
Speaker 7: All part of the spiritual realm of evil.

1318
01:25:03,479 --> 01:25:06,720
Speaker 9: It is appearing right now in the spiritual matrix of

1319
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:07,200
Speaker 9: the unit.

1320
01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:11,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So at this point I was considering just disrupting

1321
01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:15,439
Speaker 1: the talk if he said the word abortion or QAnon.

1322
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:18,360
Speaker 1: I was going to interrupt the talk at risk of

1323
01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:21,640
Speaker 1: getting kicked out of the conference, but he straddled that

1324
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:28,799
Speaker 1: line really really really close. Clyde explained that demons feed

1325
01:25:28,960 --> 01:25:34,000
Speaker 1: off death, and these child killing entities are taking form

1326
01:25:34,160 --> 01:25:38,400
Speaker 1: within the Internet to push kids into depression and make

1327
01:25:38,439 --> 01:25:43,600
Speaker 1: themselves harm. Fueling this demonic migration to the Internet is

1328
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:47,000
Speaker 1: an increase in the number of quote unquote dead babies,

1329
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:51,160
Speaker 1: which is essentially summoning demons that then go on to

1330
01:25:51,160 --> 01:25:53,480
Speaker 1: torture children on the Internet.

1331
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:56,200
Speaker 9: So that's why I believe that maybe this demon is

1332
01:25:56,280 --> 01:25:58,679
Speaker 9: a demon of the unborn being killed for the demon

1333
01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:03,400
Speaker 9: public speak, because those are the images that show up

1334
01:26:03,439 --> 01:26:08,040
Speaker 9: when you delve deeper into Low, especially when we know

1335
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:10,439
Speaker 9: the entities like Low.

1336
01:26:11,800 --> 01:26:13,960
Speaker 7: Obviously than Lamastu are.

1337
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:16,720
Speaker 9: On the Internet and probably among us right now in

1338
01:26:16,760 --> 01:26:18,040
Speaker 9: the hearts and minds of everybody.

1339
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:18,880
Speaker 7: Because of the fact that.

1340
01:26:18,800 --> 01:26:23,559
Speaker 9: You're politically bound by this topic of murdering children, it's

1341
01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:26,200
Speaker 9: weird the Internet is responding.

1342
01:26:27,080 --> 01:26:28,479
Speaker 7: I believe the Internet is responding.

1343
01:26:29,200 --> 01:26:35,320
Speaker 1: Immediately after this abortion demon tirade, he then very nonchalantly

1344
01:26:35,360 --> 01:26:39,880
Speaker 1: segued into talking about reports of receiving text messages from

1345
01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:43,439
Speaker 1: dead people, and then he finished the talk with this

1346
01:26:43,680 --> 01:26:45,719
Speaker 1: absolute banger of a line.

1347
01:26:46,040 --> 01:26:49,920
Speaker 9: Elon Muskin said that playing with AI is like opening

1348
01:26:49,960 --> 01:26:53,080
Speaker 9: the door to a demon, and.

1349
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:54,680
Speaker 4: Maybe it is so.

1350
01:26:55,240 --> 01:27:00,400
Speaker 1: Obviously, this guy had an extremely flawed understanding of both

1351
01:27:00,520 --> 01:27:05,200
Speaker 1: emergent technology and how the Internet operates in the first place,

1352
01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:11,080
Speaker 1: which isn't surprising. But the panel wasn't really about technology.

1353
01:27:11,560 --> 01:27:16,560
Speaker 1: It was ideological. This guy makes money hosting a conspiracy

1354
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:19,840
Speaker 1: radio show. There is a monetary aspect for him, but

1355
01:27:20,240 --> 01:27:25,400
Speaker 1: his stated beliefs and understanding of the Internet is deeply ideological.

1356
01:27:26,120 --> 01:27:31,000
Speaker 1: He's sifting all of this techno paranormal stuff through a

1357
01:27:31,160 --> 01:27:35,960
Speaker 1: very reactionary Christian far right lens. A few years ago

1358
01:27:36,080 --> 01:27:39,240
Speaker 1: he was kicked off FM radio and now just broadcasts

1359
01:27:39,320 --> 01:27:41,960
Speaker 1: his show on the internet and I think some AM

1360
01:27:42,040 --> 01:27:47,080
Speaker 1: radio station. About a month after the conference, Elaine showed

1361
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:49,840
Speaker 1: me a news story about how some guy had a

1362
01:27:50,040 --> 01:27:55,679
Speaker 1: GPT based chatbot convince him to kill himself. The way

1363
01:27:55,760 --> 01:27:59,720
Speaker 1: that the articles were talking about this incident was basically

1364
01:27:59,800 --> 01:28:03,040
Speaker 1: the same way Clyde was talking about how entities on

1365
01:28:03,080 --> 01:28:08,680
Speaker 1: the Internet are murdering people. These GPT language models just

1366
01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:11,920
Speaker 1: say what you want them to say. This guy was

1367
01:28:12,080 --> 01:28:16,719
Speaker 1: giving it prompts, which in turn replied back to him. Now,

1368
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:20,120
Speaker 1: the chatbot he was using has been tweaked to dissuade

1369
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:22,280
Speaker 1: people from acting on suicidal thoughts.

1370
01:28:22,800 --> 01:28:23,760
Speaker 4: But it was a.

1371
01:28:23,680 --> 01:28:28,080
Speaker 1: Little disconcerting to see mainstream news articles promote the idea

1372
01:28:28,160 --> 01:28:32,439
Speaker 1: that the Internet itself, as some kind of conscious force,

1373
01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:36,400
Speaker 1: got this guy to kill himself. This guy was already

1374
01:28:36,520 --> 01:28:40,839
Speaker 1: incredibly depressed. He was typing into a GPT chatbot almost

1375
01:28:40,880 --> 01:28:44,160
Speaker 1: like you would talk to a therapist. But this chatbot

1376
01:28:44,439 --> 01:28:47,000
Speaker 1: isn't a mental health program, it's just a language model.

1377
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:51,559
Speaker 1: So in practice, this guy was using this chatbot as

1378
01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:55,679
Speaker 1: a tool to self harm, which is easier to understand

1379
01:28:55,720 --> 01:28:58,120
Speaker 1: when it's framed like that, but that's not how it's

1380
01:28:58,160 --> 01:29:01,800
Speaker 1: being interpreted in mass media. I don't actually think that

1381
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:04,640
Speaker 1: a lot of people are going to believe that Lobe

1382
01:29:04,680 --> 01:29:09,479
Speaker 1: is secretly a Sumerian child killing deity that got summoned

1383
01:29:09,800 --> 01:29:14,160
Speaker 1: via negative prompts in an image generation program, but they

1384
01:29:14,280 --> 01:29:18,559
Speaker 1: might believe that chat GPT can convince someone to kill themself.

1385
01:29:19,479 --> 01:29:22,559
Speaker 1: Throughout the whole conference, there was a link between the

1386
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:27,360
Speaker 1: paranormal and technology. Gadgets were not just seen as a

1387
01:29:27,400 --> 01:29:30,800
Speaker 1: new way to record evidence of a ghostly presence, but

1388
01:29:31,160 --> 01:29:35,440
Speaker 1: the very nature of a ghost's existence was tied to electricity.

1389
01:29:36,520 --> 01:29:39,880
Speaker 1: For many ghost hunters, the spirit world was very much

1390
01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:44,719
Speaker 1: not mystical, but a product of electromagnetism, and as such

1391
01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:48,920
Speaker 1: it can be engaged with purely clinically, that is, as

1392
01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:51,920
Speaker 1: long as you have enough spare cash to buy all

1393
01:29:51,960 --> 01:29:55,880
Speaker 1: of the specialized equipment. The rempod, which again is basically

1394
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:58,799
Speaker 1: a junior theorem in circuit attached to a tiny led

1395
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:03,720
Speaker 1: and a speaker goes for nearly two hundred dollars. From

1396
01:30:03,800 --> 01:30:08,440
Speaker 1: low quality EMF meters to led cat toys, cheap electronics

1397
01:30:08,479 --> 01:30:13,080
Speaker 1: are often repackaged and sold as specialized ghost hunting devices

1398
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:17,519
Speaker 1: at higher prices. All of these pale in comparison, however,

1399
01:30:17,840 --> 01:30:22,519
Speaker 1: to the Panasonic DR sixty voice activated digital recorder. This

1400
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:26,360
Speaker 1: was the device that recorded those ghostly growls during the

1401
01:30:26,360 --> 01:30:31,080
Speaker 1: investigation at the Masonic Temple. This is the only device

1402
01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:36,800
Speaker 1: that can routinely record electronic voice phenomenon. Originally released in

1403
01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:40,120
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight for one hundred dollars, it was one

1404
01:30:40,200 --> 01:30:44,760
Speaker 1: of the very first digital dictaphones. Now, due to its

1405
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:49,800
Speaker 1: infamousibility to capture the screaming voices of ghosts, it retails

1406
01:30:49,920 --> 01:30:54,760
Speaker 1: used for three to four thousand dollars, which is a

1407
01:30:54,880 --> 01:30:58,759
Speaker 1: ridiculous price, especially for something that is such a low

1408
01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:04,240
Speaker 1: quality recording dem vice. These things can record growls wherever.

1409
01:31:04,320 --> 01:31:06,120
Speaker 1: It doesn't need to be a haunted place. This is

1410
01:31:06,160 --> 01:31:09,640
Speaker 1: just what the device does. A software error in the

1411
01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:15,920
Speaker 1: voice activated file writing process produces compressed digital noise. Panasonic's

1412
01:31:16,040 --> 01:31:19,479
Speaker 1: next recorder did not have this issue, thus it doesn't

1413
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:24,840
Speaker 1: quote unquote record ghostly growls between the false positives of

1414
01:31:24,880 --> 01:31:28,639
Speaker 1: the low quality EMF meters and devices like the DR sixty.

1415
01:31:29,320 --> 01:31:34,520
Speaker 1: When remarketed as ghost detection tools, these machines inherent problems

1416
01:31:35,080 --> 01:31:39,640
Speaker 1: actually become features. Going all the way back to spere photography,

1417
01:31:39,920 --> 01:31:43,280
Speaker 1: faulty technology has been a necessary tool in the production

1418
01:31:43,439 --> 01:31:47,400
Speaker 1: of spectral evidence. To quote author Colin Dickie, who writes

1419
01:31:47,439 --> 01:31:51,559
Speaker 1: about paranormal subcultures, quote, the best tools for tracking down

1420
01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:55,200
Speaker 1: spirits have always been the ones fallible enough to find

1421
01:31:55,280 --> 01:32:00,799
Speaker 1: something unquote. The emphasis on technology as the prime means

1422
01:32:00,800 --> 01:32:04,400
Speaker 1: of interacting with the paranormal was most common among the

1423
01:32:04,560 --> 01:32:09,680
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly male investigators at the conference, although the group from

1424
01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:14,360
Speaker 1: Astoria organ was more gender diverse. There were actually very

1425
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:17,800
Speaker 1: few men in attendance at the conference. It was mostly women,

1426
01:32:18,120 --> 01:32:20,120
Speaker 1: and it was a lot of women over the age

1427
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:23,519
Speaker 1: of forty. I was well below the average age of

1428
01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:27,839
Speaker 1: most of the attendees. There are some apparently well studied

1429
01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:31,519
Speaker 1: reasons for this. In general, as people age, their rate

1430
01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:35,839
Speaker 1: of metaphysical beliefs increase. A two thousand and seven study

1431
01:32:35,960 --> 01:32:42,480
Speaker 1: from Oxford's Gerontologist linked positive supernatural beliefs with decreasing feelings

1432
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:46,799
Speaker 1: of helplessness and more successfully approaching the challenges of aging.

1433
01:32:47,800 --> 01:32:52,400
Speaker 1: They defined positive supernatural beliefs as those which quote develop

1434
01:32:52,479 --> 01:32:57,960
Speaker 1: an internalized personal relation with the sacred or transcendent and

1435
01:32:58,240 --> 01:33:03,080
Speaker 1: promote the wellness and welfare of self and others unquote.

1436
01:33:03,120 --> 01:33:05,920
Speaker 1: Such positive beliefs were found to be quote a source

1437
01:33:05,960 --> 01:33:09,599
Speaker 1: of strength, comfort, and hope in difficult times, and bring

1438
01:33:09,640 --> 01:33:14,040
Speaker 1: about a sense of community and belonging unquote. So why

1439
01:33:14,080 --> 01:33:19,320
Speaker 1: are less older men apparently interested in contacting spirits? The

1440
01:33:19,400 --> 01:33:23,200
Speaker 1: gender gap at the conference was more pronounced among attendees

1441
01:33:23,400 --> 01:33:26,479
Speaker 1: than the speakers, but even between the speakers, there was

1442
01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:30,920
Speaker 1: a noticeable difference between the more male leaning scientifically based

1443
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:35,879
Speaker 1: ghost hunter or paranormal researcher compared to the more female

1444
01:33:36,040 --> 01:33:40,920
Speaker 1: leaning psychic mediums with all of their feelings. While many

1445
01:33:40,960 --> 01:33:45,120
Speaker 1: ghost hunters might just be very excited about their scientific equipment,

1446
01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:50,120
Speaker 1: a big difference may lie in belief systems. A twenty

1447
01:33:50,160 --> 01:33:53,840
Speaker 1: twenty one cross cultural study in the PNAS Journal found

1448
01:33:53,880 --> 01:33:58,320
Speaker 1: that among people who reported experiencing high, weird or supernatural

1449
01:33:58,360 --> 01:34:01,639
Speaker 1: experiences in their life, those who had viewed the world

1450
01:34:01,680 --> 01:34:05,960
Speaker 1: and themselves as more interconnected will relate more to concepts

1451
01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:10,320
Speaker 1: like spirit contact or telepathy. Whereas people who have a

1452
01:34:10,360 --> 01:34:14,759
Speaker 1: more isolated or bounded sense of internal identity will create

1453
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:20,160
Speaker 1: alternate explanations for unusual experiences. Numerous studies have shown that

1454
01:34:20,200 --> 01:34:23,040
Speaker 1: women report belief in the paranormal at a higher rate

1455
01:34:23,160 --> 01:34:25,920
Speaker 1: than men, and there's a quick jump to just claiming

1456
01:34:25,960 --> 01:34:30,679
Speaker 1: that this is because of some sort of womanly irrationality. However,

1457
01:34:30,800 --> 01:34:33,840
Speaker 1: in a twenty twenty study published in Cell Press, they

1458
01:34:33,880 --> 01:34:40,840
Speaker 1: noted that personality traits affected whether someone believed in paranormal phenomenon. Specifically, emotionality,

1459
01:34:40,920 --> 01:34:44,720
Speaker 1: which affects how you rate experiences as profound, and openness

1460
01:34:44,800 --> 01:34:48,479
Speaker 1: to new experiences were good indicators that someone would be

1461
01:34:48,520 --> 01:34:53,439
Speaker 1: more into the supernatural. Another contributing factor was a term

1462
01:34:53,479 --> 01:34:57,720
Speaker 1: that they referred to as ontological confusion, which I think

1463
01:34:57,800 --> 01:34:59,960
Speaker 1: is kind of a nonsense term the way they use

1464
01:35:00,680 --> 01:35:06,439
Speaker 1: because to them, that means believing that thoughts have physical properties. Now,

1465
01:35:06,520 --> 01:35:10,120
Speaker 1: obviously our thoughts and perceptions do impact our reality, especially

1466
01:35:10,200 --> 01:35:13,880
Speaker 1: our own bodies and sensory feelings, but my complain about

1467
01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:17,360
Speaker 1: the term aside, the authors state that these three factors

1468
01:35:17,640 --> 01:35:23,120
Speaker 1: ontological confusion, openness, and emotionality may potentially be considered facets

1469
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:27,360
Speaker 1: of a tendency in which individuals prefer stories i e.

1470
01:35:27,920 --> 01:35:33,040
Speaker 1: Vivid and effectively appealing conceptions of the world. To quote

1471
01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:36,080
Speaker 1: part of the conclusion of the study, quote, A skeptical

1472
01:35:36,120 --> 01:35:40,519
Speaker 1: person may immediately reject a statement if it violates a rule,

1473
01:35:41,120 --> 01:35:46,000
Speaker 1: whereas open minded emotional people I don't like there's some

1474
01:35:46,080 --> 01:35:48,920
Speaker 1: negative connotations for the way they use emotional there. But

1475
01:35:49,439 --> 01:35:53,479
Speaker 1: whereas open minded emotional people might be inspired to make

1476
01:35:53,520 --> 01:35:57,840
Speaker 1: sense of what seems odd at first glance, they may

1477
01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:03,200
Speaker 1: engage in associative eric thought rather than in a bureaucratic,

1478
01:36:03,320 --> 01:36:08,920
Speaker 1: meticulous examination of the given information. Fictions transcend and enhance

1479
01:36:09,000 --> 01:36:13,640
Speaker 1: experience with meaning, imagination, and emotion. In its essence, a

1480
01:36:13,640 --> 01:36:19,400
Speaker 1: good story widens our horizon. As such, storytelling is a virtue,

1481
01:36:19,800 --> 01:36:25,320
Speaker 1: not a deficit. Yet, if story seeking happens without reasoned review,

1482
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:32,120
Speaker 1: the line between fiction and evidence based knowledge becomes blurred unquote.

1483
01:36:32,200 --> 01:36:35,200
Speaker 1: At the ghost conference, there were many different conceptions of

1484
01:36:35,280 --> 01:36:39,280
Speaker 1: how to relate to experiences that push the borders of reality,

1485
01:36:39,960 --> 01:36:42,200
Speaker 1: but not all of them fit into being what I

1486
01:36:42,439 --> 01:36:47,680
Speaker 1: and these studies consider positive supernatural beliefs. Some of these

1487
01:36:47,680 --> 01:36:51,080
Speaker 1: beliefs seemed to head into territory that veered more towards

1488
01:36:51,080 --> 01:36:56,120
Speaker 1: paranoia rather than creating metaphysical connections that enhance your own life,

1489
01:36:56,800 --> 01:37:00,439
Speaker 1: while other beliefs may simply lead people to take up

1490
01:37:00,520 --> 01:37:03,839
Speaker 1: yelling at blinking lights and abandoned buildings as a hobby.

1491
01:37:04,880 --> 01:37:07,080
Speaker 1: Most people I talked to at the conference who reported

1492
01:37:07,080 --> 01:37:11,519
Speaker 1: experiencing paranormal events all had very similar stories of going

1493
01:37:11,520 --> 01:37:14,360
Speaker 1: through some sort of hardship or trauma followed by the

1494
01:37:14,400 --> 01:37:19,280
Speaker 1: experience or perception of something strange or uncanny. For some,

1495
01:37:19,479 --> 01:37:22,600
Speaker 1: this led to a healthy interest in the unusual, but

1496
01:37:22,840 --> 01:37:27,479
Speaker 1: for others it resulted in an all consuming obsession, leading

1497
01:37:27,520 --> 01:37:30,880
Speaker 1: them to develop or adopt their own dogmatic cosmology of

1498
01:37:30,920 --> 01:37:33,960
Speaker 1: the paranormal to explain what happened to them and to

1499
01:37:34,000 --> 01:37:37,800
Speaker 1: make them feel comfortable in their own head again. In

1500
01:37:37,880 --> 01:37:40,840
Speaker 1: terms of ghosts, that meant looking at all ghosts as

1501
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:44,759
Speaker 1: ancestors or as people who were all murdered or demons

1502
01:37:44,800 --> 01:37:48,720
Speaker 1: in disguise. Depending whose company I was in at the conference,

1503
01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:51,760
Speaker 1: there would be a large desire for some sort of

1504
01:37:52,000 --> 01:37:56,519
Speaker 1: spirit contact or a great fear of spirit, casting it

1505
01:37:56,560 --> 01:38:01,040
Speaker 1: as a source of evil darkness. The conference were just

1506
01:38:01,120 --> 01:38:03,479
Speaker 1: there to sell a story to an audience that they

1507
01:38:03,560 --> 01:38:07,240
Speaker 1: knew would be more likely to be receptive, whether the

1508
01:38:07,280 --> 01:38:09,640
Speaker 1: goal was to get people to buy their books or

1509
01:38:09,640 --> 01:38:13,360
Speaker 1: their spiritual services. In effect, they were preying on people's

1510
01:38:13,560 --> 01:38:17,519
Speaker 1: fears of mortality, grief, and trauma for their own profit.

1511
01:38:18,720 --> 01:38:22,040
Speaker 1: The ghost hunts at the convention were mostly lighthearted and fun,

1512
01:38:22,400 --> 01:38:25,519
Speaker 1: but people were never really engaging with the phenomenon on

1513
01:38:25,560 --> 01:38:30,559
Speaker 1: its own terms. When people apply a purely clinical approach

1514
01:38:30,640 --> 01:38:35,200
Speaker 1: to high strangeness phenomenon, something which is inherently personal and

1515
01:38:35,360 --> 01:38:40,200
Speaker 1: elusive in nature, a distance is formed between yourself and

1516
01:38:40,240 --> 01:38:44,920
Speaker 1: the phenomenon. However, this distance often breaks down very quickly

1517
01:38:45,360 --> 01:38:49,840
Speaker 1: as engagement with the phenomenon becomes a matter of investigators

1518
01:38:49,920 --> 01:38:53,720
Speaker 1: projecting their thoughts onto it and then having parts of

1519
01:38:53,800 --> 01:38:57,800
Speaker 1: themself be reflected back. Throughout the ghost investigations, I would

1520
01:38:57,840 --> 01:39:01,000
Speaker 1: hear people explaining to potential goal ghosts that they had

1521
01:39:01,040 --> 01:39:05,000
Speaker 1: died and trying to empathize with these ghosts through conversation.

1522
01:39:06,280 --> 01:39:08,519
Speaker 1: To me, it felt like people are doing this as

1523
01:39:08,560 --> 01:39:12,800
Speaker 1: some sort of self regulatory therapy to feel and give

1524
01:39:12,840 --> 01:39:17,120
Speaker 1: out compassion, but to things that can't actually ask for

1525
01:39:17,160 --> 01:39:21,280
Speaker 1: it or be part of any reciprocal relationship. Instead of

1526
01:39:21,360 --> 01:39:26,080
Speaker 1: actually helping another person, it's giving compassion to these specters

1527
01:39:26,120 --> 01:39:29,960
Speaker 1: that you create and then live within your own head.

1528
01:39:31,080 --> 01:39:34,320
Speaker 1: Just like for Clyde Lewis, it's easier to empathize with

1529
01:39:34,439 --> 01:39:39,000
Speaker 1: quote unquote unborn children and people killed by demons on

1530
01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:43,840
Speaker 1: the Internet than say, an unemployed, depressed person needing mental

1531
01:39:43,880 --> 01:39:49,160
Speaker 1: health care. In terms of how the Internet manifests monstrous beings,

1532
01:39:49,840 --> 01:39:53,519
Speaker 1: Clyde is kind of right, but not how he thinks

1533
01:39:54,520 --> 01:39:58,120
Speaker 1: a demon and a meme are functionally the same thing.

1534
01:39:58,680 --> 01:40:02,759
Speaker 1: They both just represent idea. It's a viral thought form.

1535
01:40:03,680 --> 01:40:08,639
Speaker 1: The Internet is uniquely good at creating these specters. Momo

1536
01:40:08,920 --> 01:40:14,400
Speaker 1: haunted parents, Lobe now haunts Clyde. These are real specters.

1537
01:40:15,000 --> 01:40:18,280
Speaker 1: They aren't literal beings with their own agency, but at

1538
01:40:18,320 --> 01:40:22,360
Speaker 1: a certain point, thought forms can become semi autonomous. They

1539
01:40:22,360 --> 01:40:25,080
Speaker 1: can quote unquote take on a life of their own.

1540
01:40:26,040 --> 01:40:29,000
Speaker 1: Once enough of something has been rehified, it can be

1541
01:40:29,040 --> 01:40:33,320
Speaker 1: propelled on its own existence. If Amazon has its way,

1542
01:40:33,840 --> 01:40:37,640
Speaker 1: children will be haunted by their dead grandparents speaking through

1543
01:40:37,680 --> 01:40:41,960
Speaker 1: Alexa machines. Using AI to resurrect someone from the dead

1544
01:40:42,080 --> 01:40:46,080
Speaker 1: via deep fakes or digital twins obviously doesn't bring the

1545
01:40:46,120 --> 01:40:49,240
Speaker 1: person back live, nor is it the actual person, but

1546
01:40:49,400 --> 01:40:51,679
Speaker 1: if the illusion is strong enough to trick a part

1547
01:40:51,720 --> 01:40:54,719
Speaker 1: of your brain that still holds some kind of power.

1548
01:40:56,360 --> 01:40:59,719
Speaker 1: My takeaway from the twenty twenty three Oregon Ghost Conference

1549
01:41:00,240 --> 01:41:04,120
Speaker 1: is when you go looking, you will find something, whether

1550
01:41:04,120 --> 01:41:07,800
Speaker 1: that's opening yourself up to strange experiences or poking around

1551
01:41:07,800 --> 01:41:11,120
Speaker 1: the dark with an EMF meter. What is magic other

1552
01:41:11,200 --> 01:41:14,719
Speaker 1: than the manipulation of meaning. You can make certain things

1553
01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:17,800
Speaker 1: mean something if you want them to. You can be

1554
01:41:17,880 --> 01:41:21,680
Speaker 1: in conversation with the world around you, but ultimately it's

1555
01:41:21,760 --> 01:41:24,400
Speaker 1: up to you to determine how you will interpret that

1556
01:41:24,439 --> 01:41:29,599
Speaker 1: information into something meaningful. Whether you're a skeptic, a believer,

1557
01:41:30,280 --> 01:41:33,280
Speaker 1: or you're just a long for the cosmic joke that

1558
01:41:33,320 --> 01:41:37,720
Speaker 1: we call existence. Maybe, just maybe I'll see you on

1559
01:41:37,880 --> 01:41:42,519
Speaker 1: the other side. Happy Halloween. I did not quite expect

1560
01:41:42,520 --> 01:41:45,920
Speaker 1: it to go all the way to abortion demons, but

1561
01:41:46,000 --> 01:41:46,360
Speaker 1: here we.

1562
01:41:46,320 --> 01:42:04,479
Speaker 10: Are welcome to it could happen here. I'm Andrew of

1563
01:42:04,600 --> 01:42:07,240
Speaker 10: YouTube channel Andrewism, and I'm here.

1564
01:42:07,360 --> 01:42:13,080
Speaker 1: With Garrison Davis is also here. Hello, Welcome, Welcome.

1565
01:42:15,080 --> 01:42:18,720
Speaker 10: You do know what I'm to think about recently? Cults?

1566
01:42:19,439 --> 01:42:23,240
Speaker 1: Oh, one of one of my favorite topics culture culture, fun.

1567
01:42:24,160 --> 01:42:27,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, and I mean the term cult is in

1568
01:42:27,840 --> 01:42:31,240
Speaker 10: some ways just another pejorative for you know, a group

1569
01:42:31,240 --> 01:42:35,040
Speaker 10: that you don't like. Sure, you know, culture personality could

1570
01:42:35,040 --> 01:42:38,080
Speaker 10: we use to describe a very passionate fan base. We

1571
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:41,240
Speaker 10: use cult classic to talk about, you know, really well

1572
01:42:41,320 --> 01:42:45,200
Speaker 10: known and renowned pieces of media. You know, cults could

1573
01:42:45,240 --> 01:42:49,160
Speaker 10: also actually refoot high control groups that ruin people's lives,

1574
01:42:49,200 --> 01:42:55,200
Speaker 10: you know, So that's something to consider. Yes, I know

1575
01:42:55,280 --> 01:42:58,200
Speaker 10: that there's some debate within sociology about oh, should we

1576
01:42:58,280 --> 01:43:00,960
Speaker 10: use it, should we not use it? But I don't

1577
01:43:01,000 --> 01:43:04,200
Speaker 10: think the occasional misapplications of the tomb should distract us

1578
01:43:04,200 --> 01:43:07,720
Speaker 10: from the very real cults that have existed or do

1579
01:43:07,880 --> 01:43:12,519
Speaker 10: exist out there, cults not just in the context of religion,

1580
01:43:13,240 --> 01:43:16,200
Speaker 10: but also in the context of politics.

1581
01:43:16,240 --> 01:43:20,599
Speaker 1: Absolutely, there's I can I can think of many many

1582
01:43:20,680 --> 01:43:23,840
Speaker 1: a political cult that rears it zaid whenever there's a

1583
01:43:23,880 --> 01:43:25,400
Speaker 1: popular uprising.

1584
01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:35,559
Speaker 10: And PSLC recently recently they are fixed up on the

1585
01:43:35,680 --> 01:43:39,160
Speaker 10: edge political cults left and right by Dennis Turisch and

1586
01:43:39,240 --> 01:43:42,519
Speaker 10: Tim Willford. And as I was going through it and

1587
01:43:42,560 --> 01:43:44,840
Speaker 10: going through all the different examples and stuff, it really

1588
01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:47,759
Speaker 10: gave me a clearer sense of how political cults operate.

1589
01:43:48,560 --> 01:43:50,160
Speaker 10: And so today I like to take some time to

1590
01:43:50,200 --> 01:43:54,120
Speaker 10: discuss the nature of political cults, and perhaps in future

1591
01:43:54,120 --> 01:43:57,240
Speaker 10: episodes we can dive into some specific examples and case studies,

1592
01:43:57,240 --> 01:44:01,080
Speaker 10: of which there are several, and many of them seem

1593
01:44:01,120 --> 01:44:02,559
Speaker 10: to be of the Trotskyist variety.

1594
01:44:05,280 --> 01:44:09,679
Speaker 1: Let me ask my commander in chief, Bob, Actually, if

1595
01:44:09,720 --> 01:44:13,439
Speaker 1: I'm allowed to talk about this before I continue? Continue

1596
01:44:13,439 --> 01:44:15,920
Speaker 1: this episode?

1597
01:44:16,760 --> 01:44:18,760
Speaker 10: Visionists, revisionists everywhere?

1598
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:21,840
Speaker 1: No? Continue please?

1599
01:44:23,439 --> 01:44:25,040
Speaker 10: Yeah? So, first, I guess we need to understand what

1600
01:44:25,120 --> 01:44:31,160
Speaker 10: cults are in general. Typically, culture defined as a relatively

1601
01:44:31,240 --> 01:44:34,280
Speaker 10: small group which is typically led by a charismatic and

1602
01:44:34,320 --> 01:44:39,240
Speaker 10: self appointed leader who excessively controls its members, requiring unwavering

1603
01:44:39,280 --> 01:44:43,040
Speaker 10: devotion to a set of religious, spiritual, philosophical beliefs and practices,

1604
01:44:43,520 --> 01:44:46,599
Speaker 10: or a particular person, object, or goal which is considered

1605
01:44:46,640 --> 01:44:51,160
Speaker 10: outside the norms of society. The American Family Foundation defined

1606
01:44:51,360 --> 01:44:54,879
Speaker 10: cults as a group of a group or movement exhibiting

1607
01:44:54,960 --> 01:44:58,879
Speaker 10: great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea,

1608
01:44:59,120 --> 01:45:03,920
Speaker 10: or thing, employing unethical, manipulative, or cosive techniques of persuasion

1609
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:08,320
Speaker 10: and control, for example, isolation from former friends and family, debilitation,

1610
01:45:08,840 --> 01:45:13,040
Speaker 10: use of special methods to heighten suggestibility in subservience, powerful

1611
01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:17,960
Speaker 10: group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment,

1612
01:45:18,320 --> 01:45:21,080
Speaker 10: promotion of total dependence in the group, and fear of

1613
01:45:21,160 --> 01:45:24,040
Speaker 10: leaving it designed to advance the goal to the group's

1614
01:45:24,120 --> 01:45:28,720
Speaker 10: leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families,

1615
01:45:29,080 --> 01:45:33,920
Speaker 10: of the community. We can also define cults as organizations

1616
01:45:33,920 --> 01:45:37,759
Speaker 10: that remold individuality to conform to the codes and needs

1617
01:45:37,800 --> 01:45:41,680
Speaker 10: of the cult, institute taboos that preclude doubt and criticism,

1618
01:45:42,120 --> 01:45:46,000
Speaker 10: and generate an elitist mentality, whereby members see themselves as

1619
01:45:46,080 --> 01:45:50,120
Speaker 10: loan evangelists struggling to bring enlightenment to the hostile forces

1620
01:45:50,200 --> 01:45:54,080
Speaker 10: surrounding them. There is only one truth, and that is

1621
01:45:54,120 --> 01:45:58,680
Speaker 10: the truth espoused by the cult. Competing explanations are not

1622
01:45:58,920 --> 01:46:04,280
Speaker 10: merely inaccurate, but degenerate cults don't have opponents, They have

1623
01:46:04,600 --> 01:46:10,880
Speaker 10: enemies and frequently dream about their ultimate destruction. Now cults

1624
01:46:10,880 --> 01:46:14,719
Speaker 10: are usually associated with religion, particularly of the New Age

1625
01:46:14,760 --> 01:46:18,439
Speaker 10: WHO and self help variety. Sometimes even gets into the

1626
01:46:18,520 --> 01:46:22,400
Speaker 10: kind of multi level marketing schemes of business trainer.

1627
01:46:22,280 --> 01:46:25,760
Speaker 1: Or oh yeah or absolutely yeah, I.

1628
01:46:25,680 --> 01:46:28,719
Speaker 10: Mean want to see the lines between MLMs, priment schemes

1629
01:46:28,720 --> 01:46:32,879
Speaker 10: and cultures quite Blaird disappoint essential oils, all that stuff.

1630
01:46:33,120 --> 01:46:38,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's very fluid dynamic because no it in practice,

1631
01:46:38,640 --> 01:46:41,320
Speaker 1: a lot of those if they're not cults themselves, they

1632
01:46:41,360 --> 01:46:44,240
Speaker 1: do pick up a lot of like cult ish tactics, behavior,

1633
01:46:44,439 --> 01:46:47,080
Speaker 1: kind of loads of modes of interaction.

1634
01:46:48,400 --> 01:46:50,759
Speaker 10: Honestly, could apply that to a lot of businesses these days.

1635
01:46:50,840 --> 01:46:53,759
Speaker 10: I mean, I've seen more than a handful of medium

1636
01:46:53,840 --> 01:46:56,080
Speaker 10: articles like this is why you should run your business

1637
01:46:56,160 --> 01:46:59,200
Speaker 10: like a cult. Here are seven cult tactics that you

1638
01:46:59,200 --> 01:47:03,040
Speaker 10: could apply to your business to generate more productivity. Kind

1639
01:47:03,040 --> 01:47:14,519
Speaker 10: of classic LinkedIn style stuff. Yeah. So in two thousand,

1640
01:47:14,640 --> 01:47:16,800
Speaker 10: which is when the book Political Cults Left and Right

1641
01:47:16,840 --> 01:47:20,000
Speaker 10: was published, it's cited that as many as four million

1642
01:47:20,040 --> 01:47:22,760
Speaker 10: Americans may have been involved with cult groups, and they

1643
01:47:22,800 --> 01:47:25,320
Speaker 10: were around five hundred cults active in Britain at the

1644
01:47:25,360 --> 01:47:28,720
Speaker 10: time and between three and five thousand in the United States.

1645
01:47:29,200 --> 01:47:32,200
Speaker 10: And honestly, that can be an understated.

1646
01:47:31,720 --> 01:47:35,080
Speaker 1: Mon especially nowadays, even just with like how the Internet

1647
01:47:35,080 --> 01:47:38,920
Speaker 1: has changed social interactions. Yeah, Like, it's a lot of

1648
01:47:38,920 --> 01:47:43,080
Speaker 1: aspects of American culture have either been or always have

1649
01:47:43,320 --> 01:47:48,519
Speaker 1: been kind of cultified, whether that includes stuff like the

1650
01:47:48,600 --> 01:47:53,280
Speaker 1: Marvel or Star Wars fan base or sports teams or

1651
01:47:53,840 --> 01:47:57,640
Speaker 1: your little church, who has this one pastor for like

1652
01:47:57,720 --> 01:48:02,000
Speaker 1: fifty years, who controls what everyone and what everyone's allowed

1653
01:48:02,000 --> 01:48:04,200
Speaker 1: to say, what everything one's allowed to watch, and who

1654
01:48:04,240 --> 01:48:06,640
Speaker 1: they're allowed to vote for it? Right, Like, it's a

1655
01:48:06,680 --> 01:48:09,799
Speaker 1: lot of aspects that have been kind of now sucked

1656
01:48:09,840 --> 01:48:12,960
Speaker 1: into kind of like the what like the modern nuclear

1657
01:48:13,000 --> 01:48:15,519
Speaker 1: family kind of looks like a lot of the dynamics

1658
01:48:15,520 --> 01:48:18,320
Speaker 1: that make that that kind of churns that machine have

1659
01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:21,520
Speaker 1: a lot a lot of cult aspects.

1660
01:48:22,240 --> 01:48:26,200
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, definitely, And honestly that's where, like, you know,

1661
01:48:26,240 --> 01:48:30,000
Speaker 10: sociologists would contend with the term, right because honestly, there

1662
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:32,599
Speaker 10: are some definitions of a cult that literally would just

1663
01:48:32,640 --> 01:48:39,920
Speaker 10: apply to pretty much any religious group. Sure, And whatever

1664
01:48:40,000 --> 01:48:43,479
Speaker 10: your thoughts are on that, you know, it's it's it's

1665
01:48:43,520 --> 01:48:48,679
Speaker 10: clear that although religious groups do have their issues, we're

1666
01:48:48,920 --> 01:48:56,840
Speaker 10: speaking about a very specific and concentrated approach to that

1667
01:48:57,280 --> 01:49:01,240
Speaker 10: that type of organization. I mean, cults could be as

1668
01:49:01,280 --> 01:49:05,919
Speaker 10: small as two people, right, where one person is controlling

1669
01:49:05,960 --> 01:49:08,640
Speaker 10: the other through claiming a position of privilege in sight.

1670
01:49:08,680 --> 01:49:10,599
Speaker 10: In fact, a lot of cults start with just two

1671
01:49:10,600 --> 01:49:15,640
Speaker 10: people the leader and then taste acolyte, you know, and

1672
01:49:15,800 --> 01:49:19,719
Speaker 10: larger cults can also have smaller subcults within them. As

1673
01:49:19,760 --> 01:49:22,880
Speaker 10: you know, cittan members branch out and pursue their own

1674
01:49:22,960 --> 01:49:28,599
Speaker 10: little fiefdoms. Cults weaponize people's emotions to bring them into

1675
01:49:28,640 --> 01:49:31,080
Speaker 10: the fold. I mean, you don't rationalize your way into

1676
01:49:31,080 --> 01:49:35,400
Speaker 10: the cults. The people that Heaven's gates with like, huh, yeah,

1677
01:49:35,880 --> 01:49:38,120
Speaker 10: you know that that really makes sense. I should probably

1678
01:49:38,160 --> 01:49:42,519
Speaker 10: investigate that. According to all these studies and calculations, it

1679
01:49:42,640 --> 01:49:46,960
Speaker 10: really really all lines up, you know. And similarly, most

1680
01:49:46,960 --> 01:49:50,439
Speaker 10: don't even rationalize their way out of a cult. Cult

1681
01:49:50,479 --> 01:49:58,959
Speaker 10: recruitment and cult dissolution are mostly involving constantly shifting emotional states,

1682
01:49:59,720 --> 01:50:02,839
Speaker 10: which helps to lead a loss of subtlety and nuance

1683
01:50:02,880 --> 01:50:05,920
Speaker 10: in one's thoughts and feelings. And on top of that,

1684
01:50:06,320 --> 01:50:09,920
Speaker 10: cults are very good at making members feel special, you know.

1685
01:50:10,439 --> 01:50:14,559
Speaker 10: These minor insights are presented as profound revolutions. Commonly held

1686
01:50:14,600 --> 01:50:18,160
Speaker 10: ideas are claimed as exclusive to the cult, boosting members'

1687
01:50:18,200 --> 01:50:23,280
Speaker 10: sense of intellectual superiority. Where apocalypse is concerned, cults operate

1688
01:50:23,400 --> 01:50:26,240
Speaker 10: under the assumption that they are the only ones who

1689
01:50:26,240 --> 01:50:31,000
Speaker 10: can affert imminent catastrophe, fostering a belief in their infallibility,

1690
01:50:31,760 --> 01:50:34,439
Speaker 10: and then members are isolated from their pre cult self

1691
01:50:34,520 --> 01:50:37,479
Speaker 10: and life as their old beliefs are discarded and they're

1692
01:50:37,479 --> 01:50:40,679
Speaker 10: consumed by cult activities, embracing a new sense of self

1693
01:50:40,720 --> 01:50:43,320
Speaker 10: and riding high on the illusions and promises of a

1694
01:50:43,320 --> 01:50:46,960
Speaker 10: glorious future, with often destructive and violent means needed to

1695
01:50:47,000 --> 01:50:52,160
Speaker 10: reach that goal. That description can apply to both religious

1696
01:50:52,200 --> 01:50:54,280
Speaker 10: cults and political cults.

1697
01:50:54,280 --> 01:50:57,800
Speaker 1: And political cults. No, I was definitely viewing that through

1698
01:50:58,000 --> 01:51:00,240
Speaker 1: even more so a political lens, just because that's you know,

1699
01:51:00,280 --> 01:51:03,320
Speaker 1: a lot of what we cover on the show. Yeah, No,

1700
01:51:03,560 --> 01:51:07,000
Speaker 1: like that can even that can even also mean it

1701
01:51:07,040 --> 01:51:09,559
Speaker 1: can obviously describe, like we've kind of been alluding to

1702
01:51:09,600 --> 01:51:13,719
Speaker 1: these big like communist kind of cult groups that operate

1703
01:51:15,040 --> 01:51:19,599
Speaker 1: particularly in North America. But honestly, that description can also

1704
01:51:19,720 --> 01:51:23,280
Speaker 1: like be applied to just like a really shitty, like

1705
01:51:23,720 --> 01:51:27,599
Speaker 1: anarchist affinity group that's kind of being led by one asshole.

1706
01:51:27,760 --> 01:51:31,840
Speaker 1: Like it's certainly like this. It certainly applies beyond you know,

1707
01:51:31,920 --> 01:51:35,280
Speaker 1: the very you know, like political systems that are more

1708
01:51:35,320 --> 01:51:39,360
Speaker 1: inherently authoritarian versus once that aren't. But you know, if

1709
01:51:39,360 --> 01:51:42,759
Speaker 1: you look at like the Libertarian Party of the United States,

1710
01:51:42,840 --> 01:51:45,840
Speaker 1: right and all of their little local chapters. Right, they

1711
01:51:45,840 --> 01:51:51,120
Speaker 1: claimed to the anti authoritarian, but a lot of a

1712
01:51:51,120 --> 01:51:56,360
Speaker 1: lot of their internal politics are very authoritarian. But also

1713
01:51:56,960 --> 01:52:00,679
Speaker 1: like the specific local chapters when when never they get

1714
01:52:00,760 --> 01:52:03,040
Speaker 1: new people in and they kind of have someone new

1715
01:52:03,160 --> 01:52:05,400
Speaker 1: take take charge of their chapter, it does have a

1716
01:52:05,400 --> 01:52:08,559
Speaker 1: little kind of cult dynamic running. And I don't think

1717
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:12,160
Speaker 1: that's restricted just to those on the right of the

1718
01:52:12,160 --> 01:52:15,599
Speaker 1: political spectrum. I think there's definitely aspects where you even

1719
01:52:15,600 --> 01:52:20,800
Speaker 1: see this in like anarchistic kind of compositions in at

1720
01:52:20,880 --> 01:52:22,680
Speaker 1: least at least to the United States, and in my

1721
01:52:22,880 --> 01:52:24,599
Speaker 1: in my observation.

1722
01:52:24,920 --> 01:52:29,040
Speaker 10: Yeah, definitely. I think people hear cults and they immediately

1723
01:52:29,080 --> 01:52:32,320
Speaker 10: think like the destructive cults of people of like the

1724
01:52:32,360 --> 01:52:35,479
Speaker 10: People's Temple of Jim Jones, Right, sure, I mean those

1725
01:52:35,560 --> 01:52:39,840
Speaker 10: members through deliberate action abused, physically injured or killed other

1726
01:52:39,880 --> 01:52:42,720
Speaker 10: members of their own group and other people, you know,

1727
01:52:42,720 --> 01:52:44,880
Speaker 10: And then of course they doomsday cults. People think about

1728
01:52:44,880 --> 01:52:48,120
Speaker 10: like Having's Skates who believe in some kind of apocalypticism

1729
01:52:48,240 --> 01:52:53,920
Speaker 10: or millennarianism. But I want to talk about political cults, right,

1730
01:52:54,760 --> 01:52:57,559
Speaker 10: and not just political cults on the left, even though

1731
01:52:57,600 --> 01:53:04,800
Speaker 10: that's a very easy target to go after because you

1732
01:53:04,800 --> 01:53:07,519
Speaker 10: know we are involved in these spaces, but you know

1733
01:53:07,560 --> 01:53:09,719
Speaker 10: there are a lot of right wing political culture as well.

1734
01:53:10,120 --> 01:53:12,200
Speaker 10: You know that we'll get we'll get there a due

1735
01:53:12,200 --> 01:53:17,519
Speaker 10: attention indeed time. In fact, the first bilical cult that

1736
01:53:17,560 --> 01:53:20,200
Speaker 10: I do want to talk about in another episode is

1737
01:53:20,400 --> 01:53:24,120
Speaker 10: a cult that really ran the gamut from left to right.

1738
01:53:25,200 --> 01:53:29,400
Speaker 10: The leader of that cult the last name rhymes with

1739
01:53:30,280 --> 01:53:33,320
Speaker 10: La Poche. But you know we'll get to that in Detex.

1740
01:53:33,400 --> 01:53:35,639
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, all right, all right, I will, I will,

1741
01:53:36,240 --> 01:53:39,400
Speaker 1: I will wait for the for the reveal. Do you

1742
01:53:39,400 --> 01:53:41,120
Speaker 1: know who else really loves cults?

1743
01:53:41,560 --> 01:53:41,880
Speaker 10: Who's that?

1744
01:53:42,720 --> 01:53:46,600
Speaker 1: The products and services that pay both my bills and

1745
01:53:46,720 --> 01:53:50,920
Speaker 1: some of your bills. So here is a perfect a

1746
01:53:51,000 --> 01:53:54,760
Speaker 1: perfect space for an ad break. Thanks Chevron. If you're

1747
01:53:54,840 --> 01:54:01,479
Speaker 1: advertising pushing, pushing forward the great American tradition of cultish

1748
01:54:01,520 --> 01:54:05,400
Speaker 1: behavior in the economic system, we're back. Have you ever

1749
01:54:05,439 --> 01:54:07,280
Speaker 1: read the book Cultish?

1750
01:54:07,680 --> 01:54:12,920
Speaker 10: So I classify my engagement with literature in two broadcamps.

1751
01:54:13,560 --> 01:54:16,320
Speaker 10: Books I've read and books I've skimmed. That's a book

1752
01:54:16,320 --> 01:54:16,839
Speaker 10: I've skimmed.

1753
01:54:17,200 --> 01:54:19,360
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, all right, it's it is, it is.

1754
01:54:19,439 --> 01:54:22,680
Speaker 1: It is definitely a fine book to skim. No, it's

1755
01:54:22,680 --> 01:54:26,759
Speaker 1: definitely a good, a good kind of a good central

1756
01:54:27,200 --> 01:54:29,719
Speaker 1: central piece of literature kind of on on this topic,

1757
01:54:30,080 --> 01:54:33,240
Speaker 1: especially as it relates to, you know, getting out of

1758
01:54:33,680 --> 01:54:36,360
Speaker 1: just like Heaven's Gate or scientology. You know that there's

1759
01:54:36,440 --> 01:54:40,080
Speaker 1: very like, very obvious cults as starting to like look

1760
01:54:40,120 --> 01:54:44,240
Speaker 1: at the general cultishness of like this entire continent and

1761
01:54:44,280 --> 01:54:49,600
Speaker 1: specifically the United States. It's definitely a fun read if

1762
01:54:49,600 --> 01:54:51,360
Speaker 1: anyone is interested in the topic.

1763
01:54:51,880 --> 01:54:52,040
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1764
01:54:52,080 --> 01:54:55,000
Speaker 10: I think it particularly focuses on cult language, right, how

1765
01:54:55,160 --> 01:54:58,840
Speaker 10: the language of cultures used to manipulate people. Yeah, so

1766
01:54:59,040 --> 01:55:02,600
Speaker 10: political cults, right, I mean, in a world where established

1767
01:55:02,600 --> 01:55:06,040
Speaker 10: politics has failed us again and again, many have to

1768
01:55:06,160 --> 01:55:10,320
Speaker 10: into radical politics right and left. I mean, as someone

1769
01:55:10,320 --> 01:55:14,360
Speaker 10: who doesn't really consider myself left, but I do like

1770
01:55:15,400 --> 01:55:19,680
Speaker 10: relate to it in some way, you know, typical anarchist.

1771
01:55:19,960 --> 01:55:22,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm on the same I'm in the same boat

1772
01:55:22,960 --> 01:55:23,440
Speaker 1: as you there.

1773
01:55:24,320 --> 01:55:27,560
Speaker 10: Yeah, I don't see radicalization towards left as necessarily a

1774
01:55:27,560 --> 01:55:30,480
Speaker 10: bad thing. I mean, there a lot of rabbit holes

1775
01:55:30,480 --> 01:55:33,280
Speaker 10: and pitfalls I think people fall into when they start

1776
01:55:33,320 --> 01:55:37,160
Speaker 10: progressing in that trajectory. But you know, people's frustrations with

1777
01:55:37,200 --> 01:55:39,600
Speaker 10: this feeling system are real, and it's good that they're

1778
01:55:39,600 --> 01:55:43,520
Speaker 10: seeking radical alternatives. Some of those alternatives are terrible and

1779
01:55:43,600 --> 01:55:46,600
Speaker 10: should be called out, but the premise of needing revolutionary

1780
01:55:46,600 --> 01:55:50,600
Speaker 10: system change is not terrible, which is where I disagree

1781
01:55:50,640 --> 01:55:53,920
Speaker 10: with the books kind of centrist bent, because it puts

1782
01:55:53,960 --> 01:55:58,120
Speaker 10: forward the idea that revolution is like this dramatic thing, right,

1783
01:55:58,160 --> 01:56:00,480
Speaker 10: like how why would you grip me pros? And that

1784
01:56:00,560 --> 01:56:03,440
Speaker 10: unless you are called kind of vibe. It also ends

1785
01:56:03,520 --> 01:56:06,360
Speaker 10: up drawing some equivalences between the radical left and the

1786
01:56:06,440 --> 01:56:10,680
Speaker 10: radical right. Sure, although I will say as well, the

1787
01:56:10,720 --> 01:56:13,760
Speaker 10: book is primarily discussed in Marxist Leninists when it talks

1788
01:56:13,760 --> 01:56:16,760
Speaker 10: about political cults on the far left, and as we'll see,

1789
01:56:16,800 --> 01:56:21,080
Speaker 10: the way that Marxist Leninists structure things, it is somewhat

1790
01:56:21,080 --> 01:56:25,160
Speaker 10: conducive to that particular formation. Not to slander all Marxist Leninists,

1791
01:56:25,160 --> 01:56:29,920
Speaker 10: but the ideology is, you know, in some ways compatible

1792
01:56:30,760 --> 01:56:36,160
Speaker 10: in many ways capattle with cult organization. Yeah, and I

1793
01:56:36,200 --> 01:56:38,600
Speaker 10: do agree with the book's criticisms of the way that

1794
01:56:38,760 --> 01:56:42,800
Speaker 10: a lot of Marxist Lenists specifically organize their movements and organizations.

1795
01:56:43,680 --> 01:56:48,480
Speaker 10: But yeah, preamble side, the book defines political cults as

1796
01:56:49,320 --> 01:56:53,640
Speaker 10: environments where individuals are encouraged to envision of future society

1797
01:56:54,120 --> 01:56:58,480
Speaker 10: under their control. These members are often praised as visionary leaders,

1798
01:56:58,520 --> 01:57:01,880
Speaker 10: referred to as cantries, will hold significant power in the

1799
01:57:01,960 --> 01:57:05,360
Speaker 10: new world order. At the same time, they are criticized

1800
01:57:05,360 --> 01:57:07,880
Speaker 10: for not fully grasping the ideals of the founders in

1801
01:57:07,920 --> 01:57:11,240
Speaker 10: the present. The slow progress toward realizing the cult s

1802
01:57:11,240 --> 01:57:15,200
Speaker 10: goals is attributed to their perceived lack of effort. The

1803
01:57:15,320 --> 01:57:18,680
Speaker 10: leader is credited to the cult's achievement, while any setbacks

1804
01:57:18,760 --> 01:57:22,360
Speaker 10: are blamed on the members perceived laziness. This combination of

1805
01:57:22,360 --> 01:57:26,560
Speaker 10: grandiose vision and culture that suppresses descent create an environment

1806
01:57:26,600 --> 01:57:29,800
Speaker 10: where questioning any aspect of the group's ideology is met

1807
01:57:29,840 --> 01:57:34,840
Speaker 10: with intense fail and punishment. And political culturally do present

1808
01:57:34,960 --> 01:57:39,440
Speaker 10: a danger. Most of them are marginal irrelevant, but they

1809
01:57:39,440 --> 01:57:42,200
Speaker 10: do cause harm to the people within them and the

1810
01:57:42,240 --> 01:57:44,440
Speaker 10: people outside of them, and if they manage to take

1811
01:57:44,600 --> 01:57:51,200
Speaker 10: state power, like in Cambodia, it really has extremely disastrous results,

1812
01:57:51,200 --> 01:57:54,400
Speaker 10: and I would call a full partter cult leader. I

1813
01:57:54,400 --> 01:57:57,480
Speaker 10: would go as far as to say that political cults

1814
01:57:58,000 --> 01:58:01,000
Speaker 10: have been mostly far right right. There are some far

1815
01:58:01,080 --> 01:58:05,000
Speaker 10: left cults in the mix, which in my opinion is

1816
01:58:05,040 --> 01:58:08,879
Speaker 10: even more depressing because it's like you were so close

1817
01:58:09,160 --> 01:58:12,840
Speaker 10: and then there you go. So like a lot of

1818
01:58:12,880 --> 01:58:15,520
Speaker 10: my eya is targeted towards political cults and are left

1819
01:58:15,520 --> 01:58:19,760
Speaker 10: because it's like, wow, you know, almost there, and then

1820
01:58:20,040 --> 01:58:24,960
Speaker 10: now you're stuck planting the flag of the CCP in

1821
01:58:25,000 --> 01:58:28,760
Speaker 10: front of a university in the US or something.

1822
01:58:29,200 --> 01:58:32,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. Many, many such cases.

1823
01:58:31,960 --> 01:58:36,760
Speaker 10: Many such cases. All sorts of political cults demand their

1824
01:58:36,800 --> 01:58:41,240
Speaker 10: true believers be prepared to embrace the group's inflexible theology

1825
01:58:41,400 --> 01:58:45,720
Speaker 10: and strict organizational practices, much to the parallel society and

1826
01:58:45,760 --> 01:58:49,200
Speaker 10: honestly the waste of the talents, energy, and commitment to

1827
01:58:49,240 --> 01:58:52,720
Speaker 10: their members. For as long as I can remember, cults

1828
01:58:52,760 --> 01:58:54,920
Speaker 10: have been a bad thing. You know. Cults suck, right,

1829
01:58:55,000 --> 01:58:58,960
Speaker 10: Cults of all types really suck general.

1830
01:58:59,360 --> 01:59:01,480
Speaker 1: Generally, cult have kind of a bad rap.

1831
01:59:02,280 --> 01:59:08,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, I can't imagine why. But then that lent

1832
01:59:09,040 --> 01:59:13,400
Speaker 10: itself to the question of why do people join them? No,

1833
01:59:13,520 --> 01:59:18,520
Speaker 10: they're stupid? How do they recruit and keep their members?

1834
01:59:18,560 --> 01:59:18,640
Speaker 1: Like?

1835
01:59:18,680 --> 01:59:21,120
Speaker 10: What's going on there is that they just didn't know?

1836
01:59:21,600 --> 01:59:24,720
Speaker 10: Is it that? Oh? Cults, sign me up. I want

1837
01:59:24,760 --> 01:59:29,400
Speaker 10: to take a very unorthodox approach and offer you Garrison

1838
01:59:30,000 --> 01:59:33,000
Speaker 10: personally a guide to start your own cult.

1839
01:59:33,800 --> 01:59:37,040
Speaker 1: Oh I, I've thought a lot about this already, but

1840
01:59:37,120 --> 01:59:38,960
Speaker 1: I am, I am, I'm very happy to very happy

1841
01:59:38,960 --> 01:59:41,640
Speaker 1: to take notes here. Let me make a new Google doc.

1842
01:59:42,080 --> 01:59:45,960
Speaker 10: And sure when d run from the work of social

1843
01:59:46,040 --> 01:59:52,960
Speaker 10: psychologists Anthony Pratkanis and Elliott Aaronson. So just follow these steps, right,

1844
01:59:53,280 --> 01:59:59,240
Speaker 10: all right? Step one, create a distinct social reality. Cults

1845
01:59:59,280 --> 02:00:02,600
Speaker 10: I sleep members from external sources of information, making them

1846
02:00:02,680 --> 02:00:06,000
Speaker 10: interact primarily with other cult members. This leads to a

1847
02:00:06,040 --> 02:00:09,440
Speaker 10: shift in vocabulary towards the cult's lingo, making it difficult

1848
02:00:09,440 --> 02:00:12,160
Speaker 10: for them to communicate with non cult members, which leads

1849
02:00:12,200 --> 02:00:16,760
Speaker 10: to the uncritical acceptance of the cult's propaganda. The cult's

1850
02:00:16,760 --> 02:00:21,120
Speaker 10: belief system must be rigid and all encompass in the analysis,

1851
02:00:21,160 --> 02:00:24,640
Speaker 10: answers everything about the world, and there is nothing beyond it.

1852
02:00:25,160 --> 02:00:27,720
Speaker 10: Left wing cults believe that their ideology is the only

1853
02:00:27,920 --> 02:00:32,160
Speaker 10: valid lens through which to view the world. Historical zerialism

1854
02:00:32,320 --> 02:00:34,800
Speaker 10: will Right wing cults often sent to their beliefs around

1855
02:00:34,840 --> 02:00:39,320
Speaker 10: conspiracy theories, particularly related to race and I remember the

1856
02:00:39,360 --> 02:00:44,360
Speaker 10: group's beliefs are beyond question or falsification. No tests or

1857
02:00:44,480 --> 02:00:48,280
Speaker 10: challenges allowed. That might lead to a revaluation of these beliefs.

1858
02:00:48,760 --> 02:00:52,840
Speaker 10: Any dissent or questioning is labeled as heresy or betrayal

1859
02:00:53,240 --> 02:00:57,240
Speaker 10: or you know, better to kind of vibe. Step two,

1860
02:00:58,040 --> 02:01:03,080
Speaker 10: create an in group and an outgrowth. Cults emphasize differences

1861
02:01:03,240 --> 02:01:06,879
Speaker 10: between they're in group and perceived out groups, fostring loyalty

1862
02:01:07,000 --> 02:01:10,440
Speaker 10: among members. It really doesn't matter who the d group is.

1863
02:01:10,440 --> 02:01:12,600
Speaker 10: You just need to have an outgroup of some kind.

1864
02:01:12,680 --> 02:01:16,240
Speaker 10: So for far right cults, it's like Jewish people, black people,

1865
02:01:16,400 --> 02:01:18,600
Speaker 10: gay people, those are the necessary out groups. That's like

1866
02:01:18,640 --> 02:01:22,560
Speaker 10: the bare minimum out group for most right wing groups, right, Yeah,

1867
02:01:22,600 --> 02:01:26,480
Speaker 10: it's like checklist, you know, typical. I mean, of course,

1868
02:01:26,480 --> 02:01:28,520
Speaker 10: some go even further, and they might say something like

1869
02:01:28,560 --> 02:01:33,320
Speaker 10: anybody who isn't a white Anglo Saxon Protestant is excluded

1870
02:01:33,400 --> 02:01:36,400
Speaker 10: from their groups. But you know, sorry, became kind of irrelevant.

1871
02:01:36,720 --> 02:01:38,640
Speaker 1: Sorry Catholics, you're not.

1872
02:01:38,760 --> 02:01:45,120
Speaker 10: Yeah, RP Catholics, RP Irish, et cetera. And then for

1873
02:01:45,120 --> 02:01:48,320
Speaker 10: far left cults, in order to isolate members further, they

1874
02:01:48,360 --> 02:01:52,200
Speaker 10: can't just rely on like the bourgeoisie as the old group, because,

1875
02:01:52,240 --> 02:01:54,080
Speaker 10: I mean, the rest of the left already has the

1876
02:01:54,120 --> 02:01:59,160
Speaker 10: bourgeoisie as an opponent. So these far left cults have

1877
02:01:59,200 --> 02:02:01,560
Speaker 10: to create other groups to talk at the and I

1878
02:02:01,680 --> 02:02:02,960
Speaker 10: state the members from as well.

1879
02:02:03,480 --> 02:02:08,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it becomes much more like seeped in ideology than

1880
02:02:08,200 --> 02:02:10,880
Speaker 1: some all then, like compared to some of the right

1881
02:02:10,880 --> 02:02:13,840
Speaker 1: wing cults, I think generally, the cults on the left

1882
02:02:14,280 --> 02:02:17,840
Speaker 1: get get way more into creating kind of ideological distinctions

1883
02:02:18,360 --> 02:02:20,240
Speaker 1: that separate the in group in the out group, and

1884
02:02:20,720 --> 02:02:25,760
Speaker 1: there the ideology becomes the thing that like this is

1885
02:02:25,960 --> 02:02:29,280
Speaker 1: like that becomes like the unquestionable thing that answers all

1886
02:02:29,320 --> 02:02:31,880
Speaker 1: of the truths and all of like the problems of

1887
02:02:31,920 --> 02:02:35,320
Speaker 1: the world, whether that's like an apocalyptic version where you're

1888
02:02:35,320 --> 02:02:38,960
Speaker 1: talking about like some like collapse, or it's you know,

1889
02:02:39,040 --> 02:02:42,200
Speaker 1: like a or even like a a utopic version right

1890
02:02:42,200 --> 02:02:46,840
Speaker 1: where you're talking about the Marxist Leninists party is gonna

1891
02:02:47,440 --> 02:02:50,880
Speaker 1: sees seize power through the vanguard and control swaths of

1892
02:02:51,000 --> 02:02:55,080
Speaker 1: territory and return power to the proletariat.

1893
02:02:56,760 --> 02:03:00,800
Speaker 10: Yes, and the true obstacles to that party of revisionists,

1894
02:03:01,120 --> 02:03:03,960
Speaker 10: the ultra leftists et cetera, et cetera, the.

1895
02:03:03,880 --> 02:03:09,360
Speaker 1: Post leftists, the anarchists. Yeah, yeah, the social democrats as

1896
02:03:09,400 --> 02:03:13,400
Speaker 1: always the enemy to all side. It's truly the one,

1897
02:03:13,600 --> 02:03:15,920
Speaker 1: the one that everyone everyone loves to hit.

1898
02:03:16,840 --> 02:03:20,480
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, truly the petty boogs come.

1899
02:03:22,360 --> 02:03:22,560
Speaker 7: Right.

1900
02:03:22,680 --> 02:03:29,600
Speaker 10: Next step step three build commitment through dissonance reduction, so

1901
02:03:29,680 --> 02:03:33,720
Speaker 10: cults manipulate cognitive discerent by gradually escalating members quitment the

1902
02:03:33,720 --> 02:03:37,000
Speaker 10: group's beliefs and actions. This needs for sense of consistency

1903
02:03:37,160 --> 02:03:40,600
Speaker 10: and eventually conversion. So you don't throw a newbie into

1904
02:03:40,640 --> 02:03:43,360
Speaker 10: the kool aid right away. You start small and you

1905
02:03:43,480 --> 02:03:46,040
Speaker 10: build up from there. Maybe first you want a meeting,

1906
02:03:46,360 --> 02:03:48,760
Speaker 10: then maybe you start voting in the meetings. Then you

1907
02:03:48,840 --> 02:03:50,840
Speaker 10: hand it out flyers for the cults at like a

1908
02:03:50,960 --> 02:03:55,160
Speaker 10: Black Lives Matter protest for example, and then you sip

1909
02:03:55,200 --> 02:03:57,480
Speaker 10: in the kool aid. You know, it's like baby steps.

1910
02:03:57,640 --> 02:04:00,400
Speaker 10: You don't throw them into the into all the time

1911
02:04:00,520 --> 02:04:08,120
Speaker 10: right away. Next step four. Maintain a rigid intunal regime.

1912
02:04:09,280 --> 02:04:12,480
Speaker 10: Decision making power is concentrated in the hands of a

1913
02:04:12,520 --> 02:04:17,160
Speaker 10: select elite within the group. Formal controls and democratic processes

1914
02:04:17,920 --> 02:04:22,160
Speaker 10: are either dismantled or ignored, even though the organization make

1915
02:04:22,240 --> 02:04:25,480
Speaker 10: claim to be democratic on paper, and this environment helps

1916
02:04:25,480 --> 02:04:31,000
Speaker 10: to foster uncertainty, fair and confusion among members, which actually

1917
02:04:31,640 --> 02:04:34,000
Speaker 10: helps to reinforce their commitment to the group. Believe it

1918
02:04:34,080 --> 02:04:43,200
Speaker 10: or not. Five Step five establish the attractiveness and credibility

1919
02:04:43,280 --> 02:04:46,800
Speaker 10: of the leader. Oh alrighty yeah, yeah yeah, you know

1920
02:04:46,880 --> 02:04:47,320
Speaker 10: make over.

1921
02:04:48,000 --> 02:04:50,360
Speaker 1: This is this is why it's going to be all over.

1922
02:04:50,400 --> 02:04:52,440
Speaker 1: As soon as they start making twink cults, it's going

1923
02:04:52,520 --> 02:04:57,440
Speaker 1: to be whole swaths of the public population just are

1924
02:04:57,480 --> 02:04:59,600
Speaker 1: gonna immediately fall victim.

1925
02:05:00,120 --> 02:05:06,080
Speaker 10: Indeed, indeed, these grand or supreme leaders are legends, extraordinary

1926
02:05:06,240 --> 02:05:13,680
Speaker 10: in their qualities your twinkness. New age cults do this. Sorry,

1927
02:05:14,600 --> 02:05:17,400
Speaker 10: new age cults do this with their sex best leaders

1928
02:05:17,440 --> 02:05:20,280
Speaker 10: and stuff. But oh my god, I can't not mention

1929
02:05:20,440 --> 02:05:24,000
Speaker 10: the veneration the political cults plays on their leaders, right yeah, yeah, yeah,

1930
02:05:24,080 --> 02:05:28,400
Speaker 10: I mean Hitler fans just obsessed with the guy. I

1931
02:05:28,400 --> 02:05:29,600
Speaker 10: mean that goes I'm saying.

1932
02:05:30,000 --> 02:05:33,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, this applies to like to like, people who are

1933
02:05:33,160 --> 02:05:34,840
Speaker 1: really into Hitler, people who are really in the stall,

1934
02:05:34,920 --> 02:05:37,400
Speaker 1: and people who are really into now they've become this

1935
02:05:37,480 --> 02:05:39,120
Speaker 1: almost like messianic figure.

1936
02:05:40,000 --> 02:05:43,320
Speaker 10: Yeah yeah, I mean, even before I understood cults better,

1937
02:05:43,840 --> 02:05:47,520
Speaker 10: I could see very clearly early on, even you know,

1938
02:05:47,560 --> 02:05:50,600
Speaker 10: before my readings theory and everything just being exposed to

1939
02:05:52,560 --> 02:05:57,040
Speaker 10: you know that space that there is a veritable cult

1940
02:05:57,800 --> 02:06:01,920
Speaker 10: of Lenin, of the king family, of maw of Trotsky,

1941
02:06:02,120 --> 02:06:05,840
Speaker 10: out of Stalin, and far be it from you to

1942
02:06:05,960 --> 02:06:10,000
Speaker 10: point out their flaws and mistakes. Either it's denied outright

1943
02:06:10,040 --> 02:06:13,120
Speaker 10: as outside propaganda, or it's kept on the download as

1944
02:06:13,200 --> 02:06:18,040
Speaker 10: much as possible. Specifically North Korea situation. Right, you often

1945
02:06:18,160 --> 02:06:22,160
Speaker 10: see its supporters saying things like, yes, there are problems

1946
02:06:22,160 --> 02:06:25,280
Speaker 10: with North Korea, and we do discuss our criticisms behind

1947
02:06:25,360 --> 02:06:29,400
Speaker 10: closed doors, but openly, you know, it's full throttled, full

1948
02:06:29,560 --> 02:06:33,200
Speaker 10: throated support, which I find very interesting.

1949
02:06:33,640 --> 02:06:35,320
Speaker 11: Yeah.

1950
02:06:35,920 --> 02:06:40,600
Speaker 10: Step six, speaking of leaders, the leader needs privileges naturally,

1951
02:06:41,360 --> 02:06:46,640
Speaker 10: police start power, wealth accumulation, and often sexual favors as well.

1952
02:06:47,840 --> 02:06:51,520
Speaker 10: Activities that are usually deemed unacceptable for ordinary members are

1953
02:06:51,560 --> 02:06:56,720
Speaker 10: tolerated when apply it to leaders. Why because step seven

1954
02:06:57,160 --> 02:07:01,880
Speaker 10: you make sure to deify the leader. Leaders, whether historical

1955
02:07:02,120 --> 02:07:07,000
Speaker 10: or current, are elevated to a defined status. They're carrying

1956
02:07:07,000 --> 02:07:09,760
Speaker 10: on the legacy and defending it from revision. If the

1957
02:07:09,800 --> 02:07:14,000
Speaker 10: OG is already dead. You resolve the arguments by referencing

1958
02:07:14,040 --> 02:07:17,200
Speaker 10: the sayings of these leaders rather than through independent analysis.

1959
02:07:18,360 --> 02:07:21,200
Speaker 10: So it's not well, you know this is the case

1960
02:07:21,240 --> 02:07:24,240
Speaker 10: because we examined X, Y, and Z factor. It's this

1961
02:07:24,360 --> 02:07:30,879
Speaker 10: is the case because person AA said so in nineteenth

1962
02:07:30,920 --> 02:07:33,360
Speaker 10: century text number three hundred and seventy six or whatever.

1963
02:07:35,680 --> 02:07:37,880
Speaker 1: It's it's six hundred pages long.

1964
02:07:38,000 --> 02:07:41,480
Speaker 10: It's it's yeah. I mean, do you even read capital, like,

1965
02:07:41,560 --> 02:07:42,000
Speaker 10: come on.

1966
02:07:42,480 --> 02:07:44,800
Speaker 1: All all twenty five volumes?

1967
02:07:46,360 --> 02:07:48,000
Speaker 10: I mean, oh, it's a capital. I mean it's a

1968
02:07:48,040 --> 02:07:48,800
Speaker 10: good No.

1969
02:07:49,280 --> 02:07:53,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely, if you want to read about like German factory conditions,

1970
02:07:53,880 --> 02:07:59,840
Speaker 1: it is, and it's definitely it's eighteenth century German factory politics.

1971
02:08:00,520 --> 02:08:02,600
Speaker 1: It is an unparalleled blook.

1972
02:08:04,000 --> 02:08:11,839
Speaker 10: Yeah, definitely. Step eight you need to send members to proselytize.

1973
02:08:12,080 --> 02:08:14,600
Speaker 10: Members need to constantly promote the benefits of the cult

1974
02:08:14,600 --> 02:08:17,880
Speaker 10: to others because that reinforces their own beliefs, that self

1975
02:08:17,920 --> 02:08:22,720
Speaker 10: generated persuasion strengthens their commitment. And to be fair, this

1976
02:08:22,840 --> 02:08:26,040
Speaker 10: applies even outside of cults. Right Like, if in the

1977
02:08:26,080 --> 02:08:29,320
Speaker 10: habits of sharing your particular ideology or religion or philosophy,

1978
02:08:29,880 --> 02:08:32,360
Speaker 10: the process of sharing it often helps you to understand

1979
02:08:32,360 --> 02:08:37,480
Speaker 10: it and also lends itself lends to you being fruth

1980
02:08:37,560 --> 02:08:40,760
Speaker 10: persuaded by it. But in the context of everything else,

1981
02:08:40,920 --> 02:08:43,240
Speaker 10: in context of the cults, it really becomes a feedback

1982
02:08:43,280 --> 02:08:46,920
Speaker 10: loop code, which is shown of all interference from the

1983
02:08:46,960 --> 02:08:49,720
Speaker 10: outside world, and in which only the liturgy of the

1984
02:08:49,760 --> 02:08:54,720
Speaker 10: cult has any semblance of reality. Number nine. Step nine

1985
02:08:55,400 --> 02:09:01,280
Speaker 10: distract members from undesirable thoughts overwork. Members keep them busy

1986
02:09:01,360 --> 02:09:04,000
Speaker 10: and exhausted, far too busy and exhausted to question the

1987
02:09:04,000 --> 02:09:09,200
Speaker 10: group's direction or beliefs. Social life friendships, those all revolve

1988
02:09:09,240 --> 02:09:12,280
Speaker 10: around the group, and of course those friendships are entirely

1989
02:09:12,280 --> 02:09:15,840
Speaker 10: conditional on the maintenance of uncritical enthusiasm for the party line.

1990
02:09:16,840 --> 02:09:19,800
Speaker 10: The book uses the example of the Worker's Revolutionary Party

1991
02:09:20,000 --> 02:09:24,000
Speaker 10: in Britain, which has a chapter in the book all

1992
02:09:24,000 --> 02:09:27,160
Speaker 10: to itself. Despite neving able to muster more than one

1993
02:09:27,200 --> 02:09:30,880
Speaker 10: percent of the vote in any elections, somehow this small

1994
02:09:31,000 --> 02:09:35,840
Speaker 10: organization managed to put out a daily newspaper, keeping the

1995
02:09:35,880 --> 02:09:40,560
Speaker 10: members busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. Next number ten fixate

1996
02:09:40,680 --> 02:09:44,920
Speaker 10: members on a promised land. Cults create an idealized vision

1997
02:09:45,000 --> 02:09:48,440
Speaker 10: of the future the contrast to the current reality. That

1998
02:09:48,560 --> 02:09:51,200
Speaker 10: promised lands maybe an alien spaceship to the next dimension,

1999
02:09:51,640 --> 02:09:55,400
Speaker 10: a religious ethno state, or a Marxist leness utopia, but

2000
02:09:55,640 --> 02:09:58,080
Speaker 10: in either case, the cult's members are driven to work

2001
02:09:58,200 --> 02:10:02,760
Speaker 10: tirelessly to achieve this vision fair and missed opportunities. They're

2002
02:10:02,760 --> 02:10:05,480
Speaker 10: constantly either recruiting and funt reason and kept in a

2003
02:10:05,560 --> 02:10:09,720
Speaker 10: constantay of luteness, reinforcing the commitment to the group's beliefs

2004
02:10:10,840 --> 02:10:14,840
Speaker 10: now Garrison. If you follow these steps, you will have

2005
02:10:14,880 --> 02:10:18,920
Speaker 10: a fairly effective cult. But you know what, just for you,

2006
02:10:19,480 --> 02:10:21,839
Speaker 10: I'm going to throw in a bonus package of commonly

2007
02:10:21,880 --> 02:10:25,600
Speaker 10: held contradictions. You could call it the double think package.

2008
02:10:26,320 --> 02:10:30,680
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, I'm all ears. I'm really really desperate

2009
02:10:30,720 --> 02:10:33,720
Speaker 1: at this point because I've kind of sunk cost fallacy

2010
02:10:33,800 --> 02:10:36,080
Speaker 1: this right, I've we've already been I've already been learning

2011
02:10:36,080 --> 02:10:38,320
Speaker 1: for like thirty minutes. I feel like I need to

2012
02:10:38,320 --> 02:10:42,600
Speaker 1: take away more more information at at the end because

2013
02:10:43,160 --> 02:10:46,360
Speaker 1: if I if I go and apply this now, it's

2014
02:10:46,440 --> 02:10:48,960
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm only gonna half asset. I need.

2015
02:10:49,000 --> 02:10:51,600
Speaker 1: I need one final, one final thing to kind of

2016
02:10:51,600 --> 02:10:52,560
Speaker 1: click into place here.

2017
02:10:53,200 --> 02:10:58,400
Speaker 10: Absolutely check this out right love of liberty and support

2018
02:10:58,400 --> 02:10:59,440
Speaker 10: for totalitarians.

2019
02:11:00,240 --> 02:11:04,480
Speaker 1: Right, these seem like two opposite things. How can both

2020
02:11:04,520 --> 02:11:07,080
Speaker 1: of these coaches? You can hold them.

2021
02:11:07,000 --> 02:11:10,040
Speaker 10: In your brain simultaneously. Right check this right. Left wing

2022
02:11:10,080 --> 02:11:13,520
Speaker 10: cults would idealize a very democratic Soviet Union of the past.

2023
02:11:14,040 --> 02:11:16,240
Speaker 10: You know, some trott Gise groups even depict an earlier

2024
02:11:16,240 --> 02:11:19,880
Speaker 10: period as democratic before being corrupted by later leaders and

2025
02:11:19,920 --> 02:11:22,520
Speaker 10: then right wing cults would claim to champ on individual

2026
02:11:22,520 --> 02:11:26,480
Speaker 10: liberty but seek to curtail democratic rights for those who

2027
02:11:26,520 --> 02:11:32,680
Speaker 10: disagree with So the democracy is upheld, but it's theoretical.

2028
02:11:33,480 --> 02:11:36,040
Speaker 10: So it's like, yeah, democracy would also come on the

2029
02:11:36,080 --> 02:11:40,520
Speaker 10: material conditions. You can't have democracy in that kind of situation. Ah, right,

2030
02:11:40,960 --> 02:11:44,440
Speaker 10: so you're loving, yes, like I am a democracy advocate,

2031
02:11:44,480 --> 02:11:47,800
Speaker 10: but also like democracy gets in the way sometimes we

2032
02:11:47,880 --> 02:11:49,320
Speaker 10: have to like get past it.

2033
02:11:49,640 --> 02:11:51,640
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean you have like to

2034
02:11:51,680 --> 02:11:53,800
Speaker 1: see what I'm cooking. We have the democracy of like

2035
02:11:53,880 --> 02:11:57,360
Speaker 1: me and like my three friends, but not like you know, everybody.

2036
02:11:57,480 --> 02:12:00,680
Speaker 10: Yeah yeah, yeah, it's like democracy, see, but it's like

2037
02:12:00,840 --> 02:12:03,440
Speaker 10: centered around like a group, like I call it like

2038
02:12:04,040 --> 02:12:07,240
Speaker 10: democratic centralism or something like that.

2039
02:12:07,280 --> 02:12:09,520
Speaker 1: Anyway, that's a great idea. That's a great idea.

2040
02:12:10,040 --> 02:12:18,080
Speaker 10: Thank you. Next, we have belief, inequality and privilege for leaders.

2041
02:12:19,000 --> 02:12:20,600
Speaker 1: That last one team is kind of important.

2042
02:12:21,320 --> 02:12:24,600
Speaker 10: Yeah, so you're going to be advocating for equality, but

2043
02:12:24,640 --> 02:12:27,160
Speaker 10: then your leaders are going to have a bunch of privileges.

2044
02:12:27,480 --> 02:12:29,880
Speaker 1: Because we're spending all the time advocating we but a

2045
02:12:29,920 --> 02:12:31,400
Speaker 1: little bit it's something extra.

2046
02:12:31,840 --> 02:12:35,040
Speaker 10: Exactly to the members. Well, they get to go out

2047
02:12:35,040 --> 02:12:39,560
Speaker 10: there and spend time fundraising and stuff, but they can't

2048
02:12:39,560 --> 02:12:41,680
Speaker 10: have a say and how the money is spent, right, Like,

2049
02:12:42,360 --> 02:12:45,400
Speaker 10: we need that money, you know, for our personal projects

2050
02:12:45,400 --> 02:12:51,520
Speaker 10: and our extremely high standards. Livent check this out. This

2051
02:12:51,600 --> 02:12:54,720
Speaker 10: is very common in religious cults, but also very common

2052
02:12:55,240 --> 02:13:02,360
Speaker 10: in some political cults. Promotion of sexual morality and sexual exploitation.

2053
02:13:04,040 --> 02:13:08,320
Speaker 1: Huh, well, okay, I'm not gonna I think I think

2054
02:13:08,360 --> 02:13:10,400
Speaker 1: I'll stop them playing along bit at this one.

2055
02:13:10,440 --> 02:13:16,640
Speaker 10: Actually yeah, yeah, yeah, fair enough, but yes, this is

2056
02:13:16,720 --> 02:13:18,560
Speaker 10: ter terrible.

2057
02:13:18,720 --> 02:13:20,080
Speaker 1: This is a very common thing.

2058
02:13:21,040 --> 02:13:24,520
Speaker 10: Yeah yeah, you know, cultural imput is very strict sexual rules,

2059
02:13:24,760 --> 02:13:29,120
Speaker 10: particularly on members, but yeah, particularly young women, and the

2060
02:13:29,200 --> 02:13:32,520
Speaker 10: leaders will still like have a whole harem of female

2061
02:13:32,520 --> 02:13:34,919
Speaker 10: members that they exploit stuff.

2062
02:13:35,120 --> 02:13:37,520
Speaker 1: This is this is this is even quite common with

2063
02:13:37,600 --> 02:13:42,600
Speaker 1: like like hardline evangelical cults in the in the States,

2064
02:13:42,600 --> 02:13:46,520
Speaker 1: whether that's kind of like a Quiverfule related or just

2065
02:13:46,600 --> 02:13:50,280
Speaker 1: other kind of smaller evangelical sex that kind of form

2066
02:13:50,360 --> 02:13:53,880
Speaker 1: their own kind of church cult dynamic. But that is

2067
02:13:53,880 --> 02:13:57,560
Speaker 1: that's very specifically very common among Christian cults because of

2068
02:13:57,600 --> 02:14:02,840
Speaker 1: how much that like sexual authority arianism is uh normalized

2069
02:14:02,880 --> 02:14:06,120
Speaker 1: in a lot of and a lot of Protestant and

2070
02:14:06,320 --> 02:14:09,600
Speaker 1: Catholic uh you know doctrine.

2071
02:14:11,840 --> 02:14:16,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, exactly exactly. It's it's frighteningly common.

2072
02:14:16,680 --> 02:14:20,600
Speaker 1: And I've certainly heard that like, you know, like Stalinists

2073
02:14:20,760 --> 02:14:26,560
Speaker 1: or Maoists specifically have have weird, weird sex stuff going on.

2074
02:14:27,120 --> 02:14:30,080
Speaker 1: But I've I've never I've never quite poked that bear,

2075
02:14:30,920 --> 02:14:34,720
Speaker 1: but I have i haven't heard that there's specifically really

2076
02:14:34,840 --> 02:14:36,720
Speaker 1: weird sex stuff around Maoists.

2077
02:14:37,120 --> 02:14:40,440
Speaker 10: But yeah, and also really weird sex offron Mao allegedly

2078
02:14:40,760 --> 02:14:48,640
Speaker 10: I've heard bought his exploits. Yeah, moving along, Uh, last

2079
02:14:48,640 --> 02:14:50,800
Speaker 10: one in this little bonus package. The rest you will

2080
02:14:50,840 --> 02:14:54,080
Speaker 10: have to like pay the twelve simple payments of nine

2081
02:14:54,160 --> 02:14:56,280
Speaker 10: hundred and ninety nine dollars to get you.

2082
02:14:56,240 --> 02:15:00,120
Speaker 1: Know, that's that's that that's one payment every month, but

2083
02:15:00,160 --> 02:15:02,680
Speaker 1: each month I get more information about how.

2084
02:15:02,560 --> 02:15:03,200
Speaker 4: To do it better.

2085
02:15:03,720 --> 02:15:05,360
Speaker 1: That sounds like good. That sounds like a great deal.

2086
02:15:05,760 --> 02:15:07,360
Speaker 10: Oh, yeah for sure, because I mean you'll be just

2087
02:15:07,480 --> 02:15:09,839
Speaker 10: like swimming in cash by the time.

2088
02:15:10,320 --> 02:15:12,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Because now I can I can use these and

2089
02:15:12,520 --> 02:15:15,040
Speaker 1: I could pass down these steps to someone else, so

2090
02:15:15,280 --> 02:15:18,800
Speaker 1: I'll I will already gets and then and they can

2091
02:15:18,880 --> 02:15:19,280
Speaker 1: pass it.

2092
02:15:19,200 --> 02:15:21,800
Speaker 10: Down, pass it down, and then you'll get kickbox from

2093
02:15:21,800 --> 02:15:22,440
Speaker 10: that as well.

2094
02:15:22,560 --> 02:15:24,520
Speaker 1: That's great. That's that sounds almost.

2095
02:15:24,440 --> 02:15:26,920
Speaker 10: Like a multi level scheme.

2096
02:15:27,400 --> 02:15:29,480
Speaker 1: It's like there's like a triangle and there's different like

2097
02:15:29,560 --> 02:15:33,160
Speaker 1: tiers of it, and like you're you're technically what above me,

2098
02:15:33,240 --> 02:15:35,400
Speaker 1: but I'm still pretty close to the top if I

2099
02:15:35,400 --> 02:15:37,600
Speaker 1: if I keep bringing it down, then it gets wider

2100
02:15:37,640 --> 02:15:40,600
Speaker 1: and wider. That's that sounds like a pretty good like setup, and.

2101
02:15:41,200 --> 02:15:42,760
Speaker 10: I benefit and then you benefit.

2102
02:15:42,880 --> 02:15:46,880
Speaker 1: I mean, the triangle is actually the strongest shape structurally,

2103
02:15:46,960 --> 02:15:48,600
Speaker 1: structure structurally.

2104
02:15:48,960 --> 02:15:54,040
Speaker 10: So check this out right demand for free speech and

2105
02:15:54,120 --> 02:15:59,360
Speaker 10: suppression of descent right, so cultural vigorously defend their right

2106
02:15:59,400 --> 02:16:03,000
Speaker 10: to free speech, which even results into legal action. Are

2107
02:16:03,000 --> 02:16:06,600
Speaker 10: there's some very infamous court cases involving in cults. Yes,

2108
02:16:07,240 --> 02:16:11,720
Speaker 10: and then they will criticize rival organizations for you know,

2109
02:16:12,040 --> 02:16:16,320
Speaker 10: undemocratic practices, and yet within the ranks of the group

2110
02:16:16,920 --> 02:16:19,080
Speaker 10: dissent is actively suppressed.

2111
02:16:19,760 --> 02:16:19,960
Speaker 8: You know.

2112
02:16:20,760 --> 02:16:23,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is like the scientology classic here.

2113
02:16:23,360 --> 02:16:26,720
Speaker 10: Yeah, exactly, and members will be told like, yeah, you

2114
02:16:26,720 --> 02:16:30,720
Speaker 10: should absolutely criticize but then if they do criticize, you know,

2115
02:16:30,720 --> 02:16:33,520
Speaker 10: they're going to be humiliated. They could very easily be expelled.

2116
02:16:33,560 --> 02:16:37,480
Speaker 10: It's like a bait and switch. It's like, yeah, we

2117
02:16:37,560 --> 02:16:40,240
Speaker 10: give you this platform to criticize, so then we know

2118
02:16:40,280 --> 02:16:45,560
Speaker 10: who to target and to tear it down. Very very common,

2119
02:16:45,920 --> 02:16:48,680
Speaker 10: very very useful when you want to, you know, strengthen

2120
02:16:48,720 --> 02:16:54,320
Speaker 10: the integrity of your cult. All right, and one last

2121
02:16:54,560 --> 02:16:56,800
Speaker 10: quick game, let's ask ourselves.

2122
02:16:56,959 --> 02:17:00,600
Speaker 1: Really, you're just like free yeah.

2123
02:17:00,520 --> 02:17:08,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, only if you call right now. So let's

2124
02:17:08,040 --> 02:17:12,160
Speaker 10: ask ourselves. Am I already in a political cult?

2125
02:17:12,480 --> 02:17:15,480
Speaker 1: Great? Good question. Actually, this is something people should ask

2126
02:17:15,480 --> 02:17:16,720
Speaker 1: themselves pretty frequently.

2127
02:17:17,360 --> 02:17:17,600
Speaker 7: Yes.

2128
02:17:18,240 --> 02:17:20,879
Speaker 10: Yes. And to figure that out, we have to look

2129
02:17:20,879 --> 02:17:25,120
Speaker 10: at the conditions that indicate the presence of ideological totalism,

2130
02:17:25,560 --> 02:17:28,640
Speaker 10: a term coined by American psychiatrist Robert J. Lifton to

2131
02:17:28,680 --> 02:17:31,760
Speaker 10: give a name to the mood of absolute convictions, which

2132
02:17:31,760 --> 02:17:34,560
Speaker 10: embeds ideas so deeply in people's heads that they grow

2133
02:17:34,640 --> 02:17:39,039
Speaker 10: inoculated against doubt. So what are the conditions he identifies

2134
02:17:39,080 --> 02:17:44,119
Speaker 10: as indicating the presence of ideological totalism. Well, there's milieu control,

2135
02:17:44,720 --> 02:17:49,240
Speaker 10: mystical manipulation, the demand for purity, the cult of confession,

2136
02:17:49,720 --> 02:17:54,680
Speaker 10: the secret science, loading, the language, doctrine over person, and

2137
02:17:54,760 --> 02:17:59,000
Speaker 10: the dispensing of existence. What do those mean one at

2138
02:17:59,000 --> 02:18:02,280
Speaker 10: a time? So you control involves techniques that dominate a

2139
02:18:02,280 --> 02:18:06,400
Speaker 10: person's contact with the outside world and communication with themselves. Right,

2140
02:18:06,440 --> 02:18:09,680
Speaker 10: So that idea of cults isolating people prevented them from

2141
02:18:09,680 --> 02:18:14,840
Speaker 10: testing the groups of ideas against external alternatives. Mystical manipulation

2142
02:18:15,520 --> 02:18:18,080
Speaker 10: is where cults claim a sense of higher purpose and

2143
02:18:18,160 --> 02:18:20,920
Speaker 10: portray the ideology as the vanguard of social development that's

2144
02:18:21,000 --> 02:18:24,880
Speaker 10: all encompassing. This is the essential ideology for the future

2145
02:18:24,879 --> 02:18:28,720
Speaker 10: of the world. Demand for purity is of course, where

2146
02:18:28,720 --> 02:18:31,480
Speaker 10: members are like convicted of their superiority and purity in

2147
02:18:31,520 --> 02:18:36,120
Speaker 10: their beliefs. The core ideas are essential, and anybody who

2148
02:18:36,160 --> 02:18:38,120
Speaker 10: is a non member as a critic or as a

2149
02:18:38,160 --> 02:18:42,080
Speaker 10: critic is an accomplice in some kind of conspiracy against

2150
02:18:42,080 --> 02:18:46,320
Speaker 10: the cult's ideas. The cult of confession is where members

2151
02:18:46,320 --> 02:18:50,000
Speaker 10: are required to confess their inadequacies and failures in group meetings,

2152
02:18:50,240 --> 02:18:54,199
Speaker 10: which helps to break down individuality and intimidating and helps

2153
02:18:54,240 --> 02:18:58,840
Speaker 10: to intimidate potential dissenters. The sacred science, through the group's ideology,

2154
02:18:58,879 --> 02:19:01,840
Speaker 10: is presented as a sacred moral vision so you can't

2155
02:19:01,840 --> 02:19:03,320
Speaker 10: really question its basic assumption.

2156
02:19:03,680 --> 02:19:06,000
Speaker 1: The immortal science of marxistem.

2157
02:19:05,879 --> 02:19:10,959
Speaker 10: The immortal science indeed loading the language is where we

2158
02:19:10,959 --> 02:19:13,720
Speaker 10: were talking about earlier, where cults use repetitive phrases and

2159
02:19:13,760 --> 02:19:17,240
Speaker 10: though i, terminator and cliches to prevent critical analysis and

2160
02:19:17,360 --> 02:19:21,680
Speaker 10: limit thinking and feeling. Doctrine over person is where historical

2161
02:19:21,760 --> 02:19:25,360
Speaker 10: myths are created or altered so aligning with the cult's ideology,

2162
02:19:26,480 --> 02:19:29,600
Speaker 10: and the the dispenser of existence is where only those

2163
02:19:29,640 --> 02:19:33,000
Speaker 10: who adhere to the group's ideology are fully human or good,

2164
02:19:33,520 --> 02:19:35,640
Speaker 10: while all others are seen as agents of evil or

2165
02:19:35,640 --> 02:19:39,440
Speaker 10: barriers to progress. How that whole delivery has been useful

2166
02:19:39,480 --> 02:19:42,200
Speaker 10: for you in determining whether or not you are in

2167
02:19:42,200 --> 02:19:45,160
Speaker 10: a cult, as well as determining how you can create

2168
02:19:45,200 --> 02:19:45,560
Speaker 10: your own.

2169
02:19:46,280 --> 02:19:51,400
Speaker 1: Well, something that my boss has told me a lot

2170
02:19:52,080 --> 02:19:56,640
Speaker 1: is that there's there's very little difference between a cult

2171
02:19:57,040 --> 02:20:03,120
Speaker 1: and a really good party. So but the biggest difference

2172
02:20:03,320 --> 02:20:08,160
Speaker 1: is that a party hopefully will be over right. It's

2173
02:20:08,560 --> 02:20:10,600
Speaker 1: it should just be like one night. It should So

2174
02:20:11,400 --> 02:20:15,080
Speaker 1: a good party is a cult that lasts like twelve

2175
02:20:15,080 --> 02:20:18,520
Speaker 1: hours tops. So you can't apply a lot of these

2176
02:20:18,560 --> 02:20:22,760
Speaker 1: ideas to putting together a really fun house party as

2177
02:20:22,879 --> 02:20:28,279
Speaker 1: long as that it's there's a mandatory uh, like dissolution

2178
02:20:29,160 --> 02:20:32,800
Speaker 1: of the party after after you know, everyone wakes up

2179
02:20:32,840 --> 02:20:33,440
Speaker 1: the next morning.

2180
02:20:34,240 --> 02:20:39,959
Speaker 10: So oh, I'm imaginin like a DJ like yes, yes,

2181
02:20:40,680 --> 02:20:43,600
Speaker 10: like like DJ mill you control.

2182
02:20:45,879 --> 02:20:48,520
Speaker 1: We know, we are, we are putting gets back on,

2183
02:20:50,120 --> 02:20:54,199
Speaker 1: no no more, no more, ska back to gets exactly. Yeah.

2184
02:20:54,440 --> 02:21:06,080
Speaker 10: The future lies right hand this beast exactly exactly. Yeah.

2185
02:21:06,280 --> 02:21:10,119
Speaker 10: But I mean, in all seriousness, political culture really sad.

2186
02:21:10,240 --> 02:21:13,680
Speaker 10: You know, the prayers, people's frustrations, the desire for change,

2187
02:21:14,240 --> 02:21:16,520
Speaker 10: the prayer. And what's worse is that they prey on

2188
02:21:16,600 --> 02:21:20,920
Speaker 10: their desire for affiliation. Yeah, one of our most deeply

2189
02:21:21,000 --> 02:21:26,400
Speaker 10: rooted desires to identify with social groups, to develop an

2190
02:21:26,400 --> 02:21:31,440
Speaker 10: identity on a familiar, local, ethnic, or national scale. And

2191
02:21:31,480 --> 02:21:34,000
Speaker 10: it's really sad that people get lost in that source.

2192
02:21:35,000 --> 02:21:38,280
Speaker 10: You know, remember that, no matter what, the group you

2193
02:21:38,360 --> 02:21:45,200
Speaker 10: choose affiliate with should be able to handle descent. I

2194
02:21:45,280 --> 02:21:48,920
Speaker 10: think that's a very good baseline upon which to affiliate

2195
02:21:50,120 --> 02:21:54,800
Speaker 10: or to determine your affiliation. Healthy groups, organizations, and movements

2196
02:21:54,800 --> 02:21:58,600
Speaker 10: are not weakened by descent. They need dissent, disagreement, and

2197
02:21:58,680 --> 02:22:03,560
Speaker 10: conflict to survive life. Frequent and important disagreement makes movements

2198
02:22:03,560 --> 02:22:07,000
Speaker 10: and organizations stronger. It allows the individuals within them to

2199
02:22:07,040 --> 02:22:09,920
Speaker 10: maintain a level of independence and allow us ideas to

2200
02:22:09,920 --> 02:22:13,160
Speaker 10: evolve through challenge rather than to exist purely due to

2201
02:22:13,160 --> 02:22:17,840
Speaker 10: the stifling atmosphere of conformity. Today we spoke about the

2202
02:22:17,879 --> 02:22:20,320
Speaker 10: techniques employed by both left wing and right wing cults

2203
02:22:20,800 --> 02:22:24,800
Speaker 10: to maintain higher levels of conformity, activism, and intolerance among

2204
02:22:24,879 --> 02:22:29,280
Speaker 10: their members. I want to emphasize that our discussion doesn't

2205
02:22:29,320 --> 02:22:33,320
Speaker 10: imply that movements striving for societal change are inherently bound

2206
02:22:33,320 --> 02:22:36,400
Speaker 10: to become obscure cults. Those that are critical examination of

2207
02:22:36,400 --> 02:22:41,039
Speaker 10: modern society is not warranted. But it's important to remember

2208
02:22:41,160 --> 02:22:44,840
Speaker 10: that while our will challenges require political analysis in action,

2209
02:22:45,680 --> 02:22:50,240
Speaker 10: the organizations so we form to address these challenges must

2210
02:22:50,320 --> 02:22:59,120
Speaker 10: try to genuinely seek understanding and transformation while preserving the

2211
02:22:59,400 --> 02:23:03,959
Speaker 10: freedom and virtuality of its members. I said a lot

2212
02:23:04,000 --> 02:23:08,760
Speaker 10: to say, create a real community, not a cult. That's

2213
02:23:08,760 --> 02:23:14,040
Speaker 10: all until next time, I've been Andrew of Thetue channel Andrewism,

2214
02:23:14,160 --> 02:23:19,640
Speaker 10: and next we will be discussing the one and only

2215
02:23:20,959 --> 02:23:44,680
Speaker 10: the Loathsome then done, lers, peace welcomes it could happen here.

2216
02:23:45,120 --> 02:23:48,720
Speaker 10: I'm Andrew of YouTube channel Anturism, and last time I

2217
02:23:48,800 --> 02:23:53,400
Speaker 10: was on here discussing political cults generally. Today I'm here

2218
02:23:53,640 --> 02:23:55,920
Speaker 10: once again with Oh Garrison.

2219
02:23:56,040 --> 02:23:59,640
Speaker 1: Yes Hello. I am also here to talk about cults

2220
02:24:00,440 --> 02:24:01,800
Speaker 1: because Andrew told me to.

2221
02:24:02,520 --> 02:24:07,160
Speaker 10: Yes yes, and I'm the I'm the leader in this dynamic.

2222
02:24:09,520 --> 02:24:11,520
Speaker 1: In many ways, this zoom call is kind of a

2223
02:24:11,520 --> 02:24:13,320
Speaker 1: mini cult where you are the leader.

2224
02:24:15,720 --> 02:24:19,000
Speaker 10: There is nothing except this call. There's no outside world,

2225
02:24:19,120 --> 02:24:21,120
Speaker 10: there is no cut on your desk. It is just

2226
02:24:22,040 --> 02:24:28,000
Speaker 10: this the cult. The cat is a revisionist. So last

2227
02:24:28,040 --> 02:24:32,720
Speaker 10: episode we discussed how cults operate, essentially the roller coaster

2228
02:24:33,080 --> 02:24:37,000
Speaker 10: emotional ride that individual's experience during cult recruitment, where they're

2229
02:24:37,000 --> 02:24:40,040
Speaker 10: feelings and ideas are manipulated and they're drawn into an

2230
02:24:40,040 --> 02:24:44,119
Speaker 10: exclusive and isolating group. We explored the rigid belief system

2231
02:24:44,200 --> 02:24:48,760
Speaker 10: that's created, the immunity to falsifacation, the authoritarianism, arbitrary leadership,

2232
02:24:49,080 --> 02:24:53,400
Speaker 10: deification of leaders, intense activism, and the use of loaded language.

2233
02:24:53,600 --> 02:24:58,520
Speaker 10: We spoke about the contradictions within political cults and the

2234
02:24:58,560 --> 02:25:03,879
Speaker 10: conditions of ideologic called totalism. And today, as promised, we're

2235
02:25:03,879 --> 02:25:06,800
Speaker 10: going to look at one political cult leader in particular

2236
02:25:07,280 --> 02:25:17,160
Speaker 10: whose influence spanned left to right, self described Platonist, conspiracy theorist,

2237
02:25:17,920 --> 02:25:22,240
Speaker 10: the alleged targets of an assassination from Queen Elizabeth, A

2238
02:25:22,440 --> 02:25:27,680
Speaker 10: one Trotskyist, the one and only, the infamous, the loathsome

2239
02:25:28,480 --> 02:25:30,039
Speaker 10: Lyndon LaRouche.

2240
02:25:30,879 --> 02:25:33,640
Speaker 1: As soon as you said platonist, I knew we were

2241
02:25:33,680 --> 02:25:37,960
Speaker 1: in for just a horrible time, just just the worst.

2242
02:25:38,400 --> 02:25:43,360
Speaker 1: The only people who self describe as Platonists are the worst. Actually,

2243
02:25:43,920 --> 02:25:46,480
Speaker 1: the last person I knew who self described as a

2244
02:25:46,480 --> 02:25:51,519
Speaker 1: Platonist was the target of an assassination because it was

2245
02:25:51,120 --> 02:26:05,879
Speaker 1: the daughter of Alexander Dugan was an.

2246
02:26:00,080 --> 02:26:01,680
Speaker 10: Interesting cast of characters.

2247
02:26:02,200 --> 02:26:02,600
Speaker 4: Indeed.

2248
02:26:02,640 --> 02:26:04,400
Speaker 1: Indeed, and speaking of.

2249
02:26:04,440 --> 02:26:06,560
Speaker 10: Cast of characters, by the way, I should note that

2250
02:26:06,760 --> 02:26:10,440
Speaker 10: Tim wall Fourth, one of the co authors of the book,

2251
02:26:10,560 --> 02:26:13,280
Speaker 10: that this research was based on the book being on

2252
02:26:13,320 --> 02:26:16,520
Speaker 10: the edge particular cults left and right. Tim Warre Fourth,

2253
02:26:16,680 --> 02:26:21,520
Speaker 10: the other authors tenant is Dennis Turrish was a Trotskyist

2254
02:26:21,720 --> 02:26:29,119
Speaker 10: called leader at one point like cult underling or whatever,

2255
02:26:29,959 --> 02:26:32,200
Speaker 10: but he was kicked out and then he later co

2256
02:26:32,320 --> 02:26:35,680
Speaker 10: authored this book to call out some of their cultish tenancies.

2257
02:26:35,800 --> 02:26:39,400
Speaker 10: If you need that sort of backstory to take some

2258
02:26:39,440 --> 02:26:41,640
Speaker 10: of this with the green of salt. So be it, because,

2259
02:26:41,760 --> 02:26:44,520
Speaker 10: as far as I can tell, Tim war Fourth and

2260
02:26:45,200 --> 02:26:48,760
Speaker 10: Lynn laruche actually crossed paths at one point.

2261
02:26:49,400 --> 02:26:52,280
Speaker 1: Interesting, So, as always.

2262
02:26:52,000 --> 02:26:54,440
Speaker 10: Let's start from the beginning and get an early portrait

2263
02:26:54,520 --> 02:26:58,480
Speaker 10: of this guy. Laroche was born in Rochester, New Hampshire

2264
02:26:58,600 --> 02:27:03,160
Speaker 10: in nineteen twenty two, then moved to Lynn, Massachusetts. He

2265
02:27:03,280 --> 02:27:06,000
Speaker 10: was the oldest of three children in a Quaker home

2266
02:27:06,400 --> 02:27:08,560
Speaker 10: who eventually his father would be expelled from the local

2267
02:27:08,640 --> 02:27:12,560
Speaker 10: Quaker community for his alleged misuse of funds. He then

2268
02:27:12,560 --> 02:27:16,280
Speaker 10: briefly attended Northeastern University in Boston and left in nineteen

2269
02:27:16,360 --> 02:27:19,800
Speaker 10: forty two, at least partly because he believed his teachers

2270
02:27:19,920 --> 02:27:23,600
Speaker 10: quote lacked the competence to teach him on conditions he

2271
02:27:23,720 --> 02:27:24,760
Speaker 10: was willing to tolerate.

2272
02:27:26,000 --> 02:27:31,160
Speaker 1: Sure, sure, I'll take his first word on that one. Yeah. Yeah.

2273
02:27:31,240 --> 02:27:34,480
Speaker 10: At first, he was a conscientious objector to enlist when

2274
02:27:34,520 --> 02:27:37,760
Speaker 10: in World War Two because you know, Quaker, and instead

2275
02:27:37,760 --> 02:27:41,480
Speaker 10: he joined a civilian public service camp in what is

2276
02:27:41,560 --> 02:27:44,480
Speaker 10: what you know, which is what conscientious objectors did at

2277
02:27:44,480 --> 02:27:47,640
Speaker 10: the time. But eventually he would enlist with the US

2278
02:27:47,760 --> 02:27:50,560
Speaker 10: Army and serve with the Medical Corps in India and

2279
02:27:50,600 --> 02:27:54,200
Speaker 10: boomer which is now mianma Yea. In nineteen forty six,

2280
02:27:54,280 --> 02:27:58,320
Speaker 10: aboard the s S. General Bradley Don Morrill met the

2281
02:27:58,360 --> 02:28:01,160
Speaker 10: young soldier in LaRouche and got into it with him

2282
02:28:01,160 --> 02:28:04,800
Speaker 10: about politics and particularly the political optimism of the post

2283
02:28:04,800 --> 02:28:08,440
Speaker 10: World War two era what a time, the revolutionary spirit

2284
02:28:08,640 --> 02:28:13,000
Speaker 10: of the Indian subcontinent, and socialist ideas more broadly, Now

2285
02:28:13,200 --> 02:28:16,680
Speaker 10: Larushe was already sympathetic towards Marx and Trotsky at this point.

2286
02:28:17,280 --> 02:28:20,240
Speaker 10: In fact, even in his preteens, he was a voracious

2287
02:28:20,240 --> 02:28:25,360
Speaker 10: reader of philosophy, particularly of the German polymath Godfred Wilhelm

2288
02:28:25,720 --> 02:28:33,120
Speaker 10: von leibnizbut leibnizbut or however that is pronounced. But ultimately,

2289
02:28:33,200 --> 02:28:36,960
Speaker 10: by the time they returned to America, Laruche was a Trotskyist.

2290
02:28:38,600 --> 02:28:41,240
Speaker 10: In brief, For those unaware, a Trotskyist is someone who

2291
02:28:41,440 --> 02:28:44,880
Speaker 10: hears the principles and politics of Leon Trotsky, who was

2292
02:28:44,920 --> 02:28:47,680
Speaker 10: a prominent figure in the early Soviet Union and a

2293
02:28:47,800 --> 02:28:50,720
Speaker 10: key figure in the what I would call co optation

2294
02:28:51,720 --> 02:28:56,359
Speaker 10: of the Russian Revolution of nineteen seventeen. Trotskyism is distinct

2295
02:28:56,440 --> 02:29:01,480
Speaker 10: from mainstream Leninist and particularly Stalinist thought. Most famously for

2296
02:29:01,520 --> 02:29:04,519
Speaker 10: their rejection of socialism in one country and their advocacy

2297
02:29:04,560 --> 02:29:08,680
Speaker 10: of permanent revolution. By the time l Aruche had returned

2298
02:29:08,680 --> 02:29:11,840
Speaker 10: home in nineteen forty seven, he joined his hometown Lynn,

2299
02:29:11,879 --> 02:29:16,240
Speaker 10: Massachusetts chapter of the Socialist Workers' Party s WP, which

2300
02:29:16,280 --> 02:29:21,520
Speaker 10: was the main American Trotskyist group. Interestingly, he took on

2301
02:29:21,600 --> 02:29:25,280
Speaker 10: a party name which really reminds me of how religious

2302
02:29:25,280 --> 02:29:30,440
Speaker 10: missionaries would give those they converted quote Christian names baptism. Yeah,

2303
02:29:30,480 --> 02:29:34,720
Speaker 10: so his party name was Lynn Marcus. You could just

2304
02:29:34,720 --> 02:29:37,080
Speaker 10: see it as a pseudonym for political work. Of course.

2305
02:29:37,200 --> 02:29:39,640
Speaker 10: I mean, the CIA and the FBI were very active

2306
02:29:40,200 --> 02:29:43,960
Speaker 10: in infiltrating these sorts of groups, So I understand having

2307
02:29:44,080 --> 02:29:47,080
Speaker 10: like a pseudonym. But I mean, considering we're talking about

2308
02:29:47,080 --> 02:29:50,000
Speaker 10: cul tendencies and political movements, I couldn't pass up on

2309
02:29:50,040 --> 02:29:50,680
Speaker 10: that observation.

2310
02:29:50,879 --> 02:29:51,080
Speaker 7: You know.

2311
02:29:52,160 --> 02:29:55,240
Speaker 10: Don Morrill, who was also from Lynn, Massachusetts, was also

2312
02:29:55,320 --> 02:29:58,440
Speaker 10: part of the SWP and very active in their union

2313
02:29:58,640 --> 02:30:04,000
Speaker 10: organized and activities. Laroucheo not so much. He was very

2314
02:30:04,240 --> 02:30:08,600
Speaker 10: intellectually oriented. He wasn't very into the union scene, and

2315
02:30:08,640 --> 02:30:11,879
Speaker 10: he eventually left Massachusetts nineteen fifty two and settled down

2316
02:30:11,920 --> 02:30:15,440
Speaker 10: in New York. City, He got married, he had a son,

2317
02:30:15,800 --> 02:30:18,640
Speaker 10: and he was focused in his career as an economic

2318
02:30:18,640 --> 02:30:22,320
Speaker 10: consultant in the shoe industry, with a nice, nice apartment

2319
02:30:22,400 --> 02:30:25,199
Speaker 10: in Central Park West. He didn't really have any ties

2320
02:30:25,240 --> 02:30:30,360
Speaker 10: to the working class efforts at the WP. So what now? Well,

2321
02:30:30,959 --> 02:30:34,440
Speaker 10: eventually he and his wife separated and he moved in

2322
02:30:34,480 --> 02:30:38,480
Speaker 10: with a fellow s WP member known sometimes as Carol White,

2323
02:30:39,000 --> 02:30:44,920
Speaker 10: sometimes as Carol Schnitzer, and sometimes as Carol Larabie. And

2324
02:30:44,959 --> 02:30:49,400
Speaker 10: then he decided that the WP leadership had the wrong idea.

2325
02:30:50,200 --> 02:30:53,360
Speaker 10: Why are they so obsessed with union organizing? Perhaps he

2326
02:30:53,360 --> 02:30:56,760
Speaker 10: should be the one calling the shots. You have to

2327
02:30:56,840 --> 02:31:00,320
Speaker 10: understand something about Laruche. You see a little involvement or

2328
02:31:00,320 --> 02:31:04,360
Speaker 10: connection to actual working class struggle, and disconnection. You see

2329
02:31:04,520 --> 02:31:08,080
Speaker 10: with little involvement or connection to actual working class struggle

2330
02:31:08,400 --> 02:31:11,879
Speaker 10: and disconnection from the party's activity. He had already begun

2331
02:31:11,959 --> 02:31:14,760
Speaker 10: making a right word shift, even while still bearing the

2332
02:31:14,760 --> 02:31:19,400
Speaker 10: banner of leftism. As an intellectual, he loved his books,

2333
02:31:19,800 --> 02:31:25,080
Speaker 10: including Marxist Capital, Rota Luxembourg's The Accumulation of Capital and

2334
02:31:25,200 --> 02:31:31,199
Speaker 10: Hegeld's Logic, and his intellectualism naturally fed into his elitism,

2335
02:31:31,840 --> 02:31:35,360
Speaker 10: Drawing from Lenin's What is to be Done? Laruche believes

2336
02:31:35,360 --> 02:31:38,280
Speaker 10: that a select intellectual group, which I mean he was

2337
02:31:38,360 --> 02:31:43,840
Speaker 10: clearly a part of, these professional revolutionaries held a pivotal

2338
02:31:43,959 --> 02:31:47,240
Speaker 10: role in transforming society, would their task being to gain

2339
02:31:47,360 --> 02:31:53,160
Speaker 10: dominance over the less intellectually developed masses. He also borrowed

2340
02:31:53,200 --> 02:31:57,640
Speaker 10: from Gramachi's idea of hergemony. He saw himself in competition

2341
02:31:58,240 --> 02:32:01,320
Speaker 10: with other intellectuals on the left for leadership over the

2342
02:32:01,360 --> 02:32:05,280
Speaker 10: hearts and minds of the dummy masses to undermine the

2343
02:32:05,280 --> 02:32:09,240
Speaker 10: capitalists hold on the working class. But unlike Gramsche, he

2344
02:32:09,280 --> 02:32:11,760
Speaker 10: didn't believe the working class was capable of developing its

2345
02:32:11,760 --> 02:32:16,400
Speaker 10: own leaders. He was that leader, and he also borrowed

2346
02:32:16,400 --> 02:32:21,879
Speaker 10: from George Lucas's concept of class consciousness and the importance

2347
02:32:22,040 --> 02:32:26,840
Speaker 10: of thinkers. Lush wasn't just a thinker. He saw himself

2348
02:32:26,879 --> 02:32:30,800
Speaker 10: as the thinker, the one who would take power and

2349
02:32:30,920 --> 02:32:34,760
Speaker 10: lead the masses to freedom. So he was fed up

2350
02:32:35,080 --> 02:32:39,640
Speaker 10: with the s WP limiting his clearly elite intellect and ability,

2351
02:32:40,320 --> 02:32:43,400
Speaker 10: and so in nineteen sixty five he left and joined

2352
02:32:43,400 --> 02:32:46,440
Speaker 10: a small Trotskise group called the American Committee for the

2353
02:32:46,480 --> 02:32:51,840
Speaker 10: Fourth International YES, associated with George Healey, who was another

2354
02:32:51,920 --> 02:32:53,160
Speaker 10: left wing cult leader.

2355
02:32:55,680 --> 02:32:58,240
Speaker 1: At a lot of left wing cults came out of

2356
02:32:58,280 --> 02:33:01,879
Speaker 1: the Fourth International, some of which are very cool, some

2357
02:33:02,000 --> 02:33:03,680
Speaker 1: of which are not very.

2358
02:33:03,440 --> 02:33:08,640
Speaker 10: Cool indeed, indeed, but guess what, he didn't like the

2359
02:33:08,640 --> 02:33:10,840
Speaker 10: Fourth International. He only stayed there for six months. And

2360
02:33:10,920 --> 02:33:14,840
Speaker 10: apparently he Ley did not even like him. I mean,

2361
02:33:14,879 --> 02:33:16,039
Speaker 10: I wonder why, right.

2362
02:33:16,760 --> 02:33:18,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, he seems like a very

2363
02:33:18,920 --> 02:33:19,800
Speaker 1: agreeable fellow.

2364
02:33:20,680 --> 02:33:22,840
Speaker 10: And not only that, I mean, when have you ever

2365
02:33:22,879 --> 02:33:25,640
Speaker 10: heard of cult leaders getting along? You know, cur leaders

2366
02:33:25,640 --> 02:33:27,879
Speaker 10: sent to view other cult leaders as threats to their

2367
02:33:27,879 --> 02:33:28,640
Speaker 10: total control.

2368
02:33:28,720 --> 02:33:31,000
Speaker 1: You know, it would be funny if there was just

2369
02:33:31,040 --> 02:33:34,360
Speaker 1: like a conference for cult leaders to like share like

2370
02:33:34,520 --> 02:33:36,520
Speaker 1: tactics and they all have like dinner together.

2371
02:33:38,760 --> 02:33:39,320
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2372
02:33:39,840 --> 02:33:42,160
Speaker 10: So laruche bus out to that party, and he joined

2373
02:33:42,160 --> 02:33:45,360
Speaker 10: the spart Issy League, which was another trot party, and

2374
02:33:45,400 --> 02:33:48,400
Speaker 10: again he didn't stay for too long. He decided he

2375
02:33:48,480 --> 02:33:51,400
Speaker 10: was going to put all those factions and leaders behind

2376
02:33:51,440 --> 02:33:59,600
Speaker 10: him and declared himself the pioneer of the Fifth INTERNATIONALE. So,

2377
02:33:59,640 --> 02:34:03,279
Speaker 10: for those unaware, the First Workers International from eighteen sixty

2378
02:34:03,280 --> 02:34:06,119
Speaker 10: four to eighteen seventy six was a coalition of labor

2379
02:34:06,160 --> 02:34:09,800
Speaker 10: and socialist groups seeking to promote workers' rights and international solidarity.

2380
02:34:10,560 --> 02:34:15,080
Speaker 10: It split because of the irreconcilable differences and divisions between

2381
02:34:15,080 --> 02:34:20,039
Speaker 10: the statists and the anarchists. Then in eighteen eighty nine

2382
02:34:20,360 --> 02:34:24,360
Speaker 10: and from then unto nineteen sixteen, the Second Internationale was born.

2383
02:34:24,760 --> 02:34:28,080
Speaker 10: That was an organization of socialist and labor parties, this

2384
02:34:28,240 --> 02:34:31,560
Speaker 10: time no anarchists allowed, and it was aimed at fostering

2385
02:34:31,680 --> 02:34:35,120
Speaker 10: cooperation among socialist globally, until it dissolved due to the

2386
02:34:35,160 --> 02:34:38,920
Speaker 10: divisions related to World War One. And then in nineteen nineteen,

2387
02:34:39,680 --> 02:34:43,600
Speaker 10: the Soviet Union founded the Third International or the Common

2388
02:34:43,680 --> 02:34:48,440
Speaker 10: Turn to promote worldwide communist revolution and aid communist parties,

2389
02:34:49,120 --> 02:34:51,040
Speaker 10: but then it dissolved during World War Two due to

2390
02:34:51,080 --> 02:34:55,280
Speaker 10: the Soviet German tensions, among other things. And then in

2391
02:34:55,360 --> 02:34:59,640
Speaker 10: nineteen thirty eight Trotsky, who was marginalized and persecuted by

2392
02:34:59,680 --> 02:35:04,320
Speaker 10: Stylar and founded the Fourth International as an oppositional alternative

2393
02:35:04,360 --> 02:35:08,920
Speaker 10: to the stalent dominated Commentarn. Technically the Fourth International is

2394
02:35:08,920 --> 02:35:13,480
Speaker 10: still active today, but it's always been fairly irrelevant beyond

2395
02:35:13,560 --> 02:35:17,720
Speaker 10: small bickerent sects and ever splinter in splinter groups and

2396
02:35:18,000 --> 02:35:21,040
Speaker 10: more than one political cult. So for a Trotskyist like

2397
02:35:21,120 --> 02:35:24,600
Speaker 10: Laruge to declare a fifth International is like, you know,

2398
02:35:24,640 --> 02:35:26,880
Speaker 10: here we go again. How is it going to matage?

2399
02:35:26,920 --> 02:35:31,840
Speaker 10: Do this? Nineteen sixty eight picture this a room with

2400
02:35:31,840 --> 02:35:35,920
Speaker 10: about phility students sitting on the floor, all eyes fixed

2401
02:35:35,959 --> 02:35:39,280
Speaker 10: on Lyndon LaRouche. After playing a major role in the

2402
02:35:39,280 --> 02:35:43,720
Speaker 10: student strike at Columbia University, these students were totally invested

2403
02:35:43,800 --> 02:35:47,400
Speaker 10: in this man's every word. They were part of the

2404
02:35:47,560 --> 02:35:53,440
Speaker 10: National Caucus of Labor Committees lc NCLC, which was affiliated

2405
02:35:53,440 --> 02:35:58,080
Speaker 10: with the Students for Democratic Society SDS. Laruche held this

2406
02:35:58,200 --> 02:36:01,600
Speaker 10: meeting for a whole seven hours, that's longer than a

2407
02:36:01,680 --> 02:36:08,800
Speaker 10: too service, and he blended discussions of tactics with educational presentations.

2408
02:36:10,040 --> 02:36:12,840
Speaker 10: The SDS had a lot of spirit and action, but

2409
02:36:12,920 --> 02:36:15,240
Speaker 10: Larush believed that they were a bit short on theory,

2410
02:36:15,360 --> 02:36:17,720
Speaker 10: so he was there to fill that void and earn

2411
02:36:17,760 --> 02:36:21,320
Speaker 10: a bit more. The gathering marked the early stages of

2412
02:36:21,320 --> 02:36:25,040
Speaker 10: Wild lad become a political cult center around Laruge, where

2413
02:36:25,080 --> 02:36:28,640
Speaker 10: he served as an intellectual and political gurup, training his

2414
02:36:28,680 --> 02:36:32,840
Speaker 10: followers as devoted disciples. He had a particular knack for

2415
02:36:32,879 --> 02:36:34,879
Speaker 10: me making his disciples feel like they were part of

2416
02:36:34,879 --> 02:36:37,760
Speaker 10: an elite club. They believe they were the only ones

2417
02:36:37,760 --> 02:36:40,720
Speaker 10: who truly understood the era they were in and had

2418
02:36:40,800 --> 02:36:44,720
Speaker 10: all the answers to fix society's problems. In nineteen seventy,

2419
02:36:45,160 --> 02:36:48,160
Speaker 10: Larush wrote that you should start with recruiting and educating

2420
02:36:48,480 --> 02:36:53,760
Speaker 10: a revolutionary intelligenzia, mainly young intellectuals like these student radicals,

2421
02:36:54,200 --> 02:36:57,480
Speaker 10: rather than the working class, because again Laruge thought the

2422
02:36:57,480 --> 02:37:01,160
Speaker 10: working class was stipid. He wanted easily to recruits to

2423
02:37:01,240 --> 02:37:06,080
Speaker 10: commit to intensive study and activism, particularly of his interpretation

2424
02:37:06,120 --> 02:37:09,600
Speaker 10: of ideas. So they need the charge. And I remember

2425
02:37:09,640 --> 02:37:13,439
Speaker 10: at this point Larush's pushing a right wing form of Trotskyism.

2426
02:37:14,360 --> 02:37:17,000
Speaker 10: Like Marx, he believed that capitalism how to keep crowing

2427
02:37:17,040 --> 02:37:19,400
Speaker 10: to stay alive. Once it hits his limits, it will

2428
02:37:19,400 --> 02:37:22,840
Speaker 10: grow into crisis mode and eventually collapse. You also shared

2429
02:37:22,840 --> 02:37:26,520
Speaker 10: Mark's idea that human activity should be all about progress,

2430
02:37:26,879 --> 02:37:29,240
Speaker 10: particularly the growth of the world's productive forces.

2431
02:37:30,000 --> 02:37:33,879
Speaker 1: Do you know who's organizing the next International? Actually right now,

2432
02:37:33,959 --> 02:37:36,320
Speaker 1: right now, it is in fact that the products and

2433
02:37:36,320 --> 02:37:40,680
Speaker 1: services that sponsor this podcast, So they're making the great

2434
02:37:40,680 --> 02:37:44,840
Speaker 1: shift the same way anarchism was expunged from the Second International,

2435
02:37:45,200 --> 02:37:48,560
Speaker 1: Now communism is going to be expunged from this this

2436
02:37:48,640 --> 02:37:51,400
Speaker 1: next upcoming international, and it's just going to be capitalists.

2437
02:37:51,560 --> 02:37:55,080
Speaker 1: So here, here, here are the sponsors organizing the next,

2438
02:37:55,400 --> 02:37:56,560
Speaker 1: the next International.

2439
02:37:58,160 --> 02:38:02,120
Speaker 10: Marx thought capitalism was just a phase in human society,

2440
02:38:02,640 --> 02:38:05,280
Speaker 10: as crises would pave the way for a working class revolution,

2441
02:38:05,720 --> 02:38:10,040
Speaker 10: which would lead to socialism. Under socialism, the productive forces

2442
02:38:10,080 --> 02:38:15,080
Speaker 10: would flourish without those pesky capitalist constraints. LaRouche came up

2443
02:38:15,080 --> 02:38:19,160
Speaker 10: with something he called the theory of re industrialization. He

2444
02:38:19,200 --> 02:38:23,240
Speaker 10: claimed that capitalism, in its third stage of imperialism, needed

2445
02:38:23,320 --> 02:38:27,160
Speaker 10: fresh opportunities for capital investment. They even predicted that if

2446
02:38:27,240 --> 02:38:30,200
Speaker 10: world leaders did not follow his advice, the system was

2447
02:38:30,240 --> 02:38:34,640
Speaker 10: on the brink of collapse. Only he and his trained

2448
02:38:34,680 --> 02:38:39,160
Speaker 10: followers under his lead could prevent this catastrophe. By the

2449
02:38:39,240 --> 02:38:42,280
Speaker 10: late sixties and early seventies, members were giving up their

2450
02:38:42,400 --> 02:38:45,200
Speaker 10: jobs and devoting themselves wholly to the cause and the

2451
02:38:45,280 --> 02:38:49,560
Speaker 10: leadership of Laruche. They were convinced that the world had

2452
02:38:49,600 --> 02:38:53,959
Speaker 10: all the resources needed for an incredible economic transformation. But

2453
02:38:54,000 --> 02:38:57,320
Speaker 10: they saw a big problem. They thought the nation's leaders

2454
02:38:57,400 --> 02:39:01,280
Speaker 10: were clueless, and of course they didn't think too highly

2455
02:39:01,320 --> 02:39:05,800
Speaker 10: the masses. So their solution was getting Linden and Laruze

2456
02:39:05,920 --> 02:39:11,160
Speaker 10: Junior into power or whether he's a junior. But their

2457
02:39:11,200 --> 02:39:14,640
Speaker 10: solution was getting Linden Laruz junior into power as soon

2458
02:39:14,840 --> 02:39:18,720
Speaker 10: as possible, and then he would lead the trade unions

2459
02:39:18,879 --> 02:39:23,360
Speaker 10: that take over America. He expected their support and if

2460
02:39:23,360 --> 02:39:26,560
Speaker 10: they were slacking in their activism, he would call them out.

2461
02:39:26,920 --> 02:39:29,640
Speaker 10: Borrowing from the confrontational therapy with the new age for

2462
02:39:29,760 --> 02:39:34,960
Speaker 10: psychology cults, l Roush began holding ego stripping sessions. Anyone

2463
02:39:35,000 --> 02:39:38,040
Speaker 10: who failed in a political task was subjected to pure

2464
02:39:38,040 --> 02:39:41,920
Speaker 10: psychological terror as everyone attacked them and tore apart their

2465
02:39:41,959 --> 02:39:44,760
Speaker 10: past and personal life in front of the whole group.

2466
02:39:45,360 --> 02:39:50,560
Speaker 10: And because cults, and because cults and sex and inevitable

2467
02:39:50,560 --> 02:39:54,640
Speaker 10: combination like madness and badness, Larush also launched a campaign

2468
02:39:54,760 --> 02:40:01,360
Speaker 10: against the sexual impotence of his membership. Apparently Carol left

2469
02:40:01,440 --> 02:40:05,360
Speaker 10: him for a disciple of the movement. Interesting his name

2470
02:40:05,400 --> 02:40:08,640
Speaker 10: was Christopher White, and they went to England to set

2471
02:40:08,720 --> 02:40:13,280
Speaker 10: up a chapter of the NCLC. So that's probably why

2472
02:40:13,320 --> 02:40:17,000
Speaker 10: he got a little bit unhinged. But that's not the

2473
02:40:17,000 --> 02:40:21,240
Speaker 10: worst of it. I can't not mention Operation mop Up.

2474
02:40:22,600 --> 02:40:26,560
Speaker 10: In nineteen seventy three, Laruge fully shifted the group's political

2475
02:40:26,560 --> 02:40:30,840
Speaker 10: stands from being far left to far right. Armed with bats,

2476
02:40:30,959 --> 02:40:35,040
Speaker 10: chains and martial arts, scale, his supporters physically attacked members

2477
02:40:35,040 --> 02:40:38,240
Speaker 10: of the Socialist Workers' Party and the Communist Party for

2478
02:40:38,360 --> 02:40:40,800
Speaker 10: He declared that he intended to wipe these rival parties

2479
02:40:40,840 --> 02:40:43,280
Speaker 10: off the map, going as far as to threaten their

2480
02:40:43,320 --> 02:40:48,400
Speaker 10: families as well. But it didn't stop there. He extended

2481
02:40:48,400 --> 02:40:51,400
Speaker 10: his attacks to groups like the Revolutionary Communist Party, the

2482
02:40:51,440 --> 02:40:56,200
Speaker 10: October League, and the Progressive Labor Party. Essentially, laruche want

2483
02:40:56,240 --> 02:41:01,280
Speaker 10: to establish dominance through these physical confrontations. There were at

2484
02:41:01,360 --> 02:41:05,480
Speaker 10: least sixty reported assaults during this time, and the whole

2485
02:41:05,480 --> 02:41:08,840
Speaker 10: operation only ended when the police stepped in and arrested

2486
02:41:08,840 --> 02:41:14,240
Speaker 10: some of Lucia's followers. Interestingly, though, there weren't any convictions,

2487
02:41:15,160 --> 02:41:18,240
Speaker 10: and Larush insisted that his people will only acted in

2488
02:41:18,280 --> 02:41:21,400
Speaker 10: self defense. But here's where it gets a little bit mookier.

2489
02:41:22,160 --> 02:41:27,360
Speaker 10: Journalist and Laruse biographer Dennis King suggested that the FBI

2490
02:41:28,040 --> 02:41:30,199
Speaker 10: may have played a role in stirring up trouble among

2491
02:41:30,240 --> 02:41:34,600
Speaker 10: these groups. We have used tactics like sending anonymous mailings

2492
02:41:34,600 --> 02:41:37,880
Speaker 10: to keep these groups in each other's throats, so you know,

2493
02:41:38,200 --> 02:41:39,080
Speaker 10: plot thickens.

2494
02:41:39,280 --> 02:41:42,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that way that was very typical kind

2495
02:41:42,480 --> 02:41:45,520
Speaker 1: of contal pro stuff that was happening around this time

2496
02:41:45,560 --> 02:41:48,120
Speaker 1: period that would not surprise me.

2497
02:41:48,879 --> 02:41:52,120
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's safe to say though, in this period of

2498
02:41:52,200 --> 02:41:55,199
Speaker 10: Larusi's life, all the folks on the left were wondering

2499
02:41:55,240 --> 02:41:58,800
Speaker 10: if he was really still one of their own. Back

2500
02:41:58,920 --> 02:42:08,840
Speaker 10: nineteen seventy three, Carol and Christopher, like I said, they

2501
02:42:08,840 --> 02:42:11,440
Speaker 10: were going to the UK to set up their own

2502
02:42:11,560 --> 02:42:16,360
Speaker 10: version of the NCLC, But then the Rush called them

2503
02:42:16,360 --> 02:42:19,920
Speaker 10: back to the US for a national conference, and during

2504
02:42:19,920 --> 02:42:26,039
Speaker 10: the flight, Christopher lost it. He started yelling that the

2505
02:42:26,080 --> 02:42:30,240
Speaker 10: CIA had plans to off lwer By and the Rouche,

2506
02:42:31,040 --> 02:42:36,840
Speaker 10: Carol Larbie and the Rush. The plane was an utter chaos.

2507
02:42:37,360 --> 02:42:40,240
Speaker 10: So Carol reached out to the rouge and they decided

2508
02:42:40,280 --> 02:42:47,000
Speaker 10: to work together to d program Christopher. What we mean

2509
02:42:47,360 --> 02:42:51,279
Speaker 10: deprogrammed Christopher? I'm glad you asked.

2510
02:42:53,480 --> 02:42:57,160
Speaker 1: I think we have mentioned called d programming before, kind

2511
02:42:57,160 --> 02:43:00,360
Speaker 1: of been passing, but never too much on it.

2512
02:43:00,400 --> 02:43:04,120
Speaker 10: I think yes. What I mean in this instance though,

2513
02:43:04,320 --> 02:43:07,960
Speaker 10: is not that they were trying to inculcate him into

2514
02:43:07,959 --> 02:43:13,240
Speaker 10: the cult or deprogram him from mainstream ideology. You see

2515
02:43:13,560 --> 02:43:17,760
Speaker 10: in his rantins and ravens on the plane Christopher claimed

2516
02:43:17,840 --> 02:43:21,560
Speaker 10: he was a Manchurian candidate who had been tortured by

2517
02:43:21,560 --> 02:43:25,440
Speaker 10: the CIA and British intelligence in a London basement. He

2518
02:43:25,520 --> 02:43:28,320
Speaker 10: then said he was programmed to do some stuff like

2519
02:43:28,640 --> 02:43:32,320
Speaker 10: often his wife and setting up Laruge for a watery

2520
02:43:32,360 --> 02:43:38,720
Speaker 10: demise by Cuban and exile frogmen. So that's the kind

2521
02:43:38,760 --> 02:43:42,720
Speaker 10: of deprogram and they intended to carry out.

2522
02:43:44,120 --> 02:43:49,120
Speaker 1: Hmmm, I have some notes, but I suppose I'll just

2523
02:43:49,200 --> 02:43:50,200
Speaker 1: let them do their thing.

2524
02:43:51,240 --> 02:43:53,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, So Christopher was saying that he was a

2525
02:43:53,959 --> 02:43:57,360
Speaker 10: Manchurian candidate, and so then the whole group was in

2526
02:43:57,360 --> 02:44:03,160
Speaker 10: a frenzy. Laruge and his disciples were released in statements

2527
02:44:03,240 --> 02:44:06,280
Speaker 10: left and right, training their members and how to spot

2528
02:44:06,520 --> 02:44:12,360
Speaker 10: other Manchurian candidates and how to handle CIA torture. And

2529
02:44:12,640 --> 02:44:15,800
Speaker 10: here's why I guess really crazy. One of the members,

2530
02:44:16,400 --> 02:44:22,680
Speaker 10: Alice Weitzman, she made a critical mistake in a political cult.

2531
02:44:24,280 --> 02:44:29,680
Speaker 10: She doubted. She didn't believe the whole CIA story that

2532
02:44:29,760 --> 02:44:34,200
Speaker 10: Christopher was pushing, and Larus didn't like that she didn't believe,

2533
02:44:35,200 --> 02:44:38,560
Speaker 10: and so Larush was like, oh, you don't believe that

2534
02:44:38,600 --> 02:44:41,879
Speaker 10: the CIA is infiltrating us right now, then you must

2535
02:44:41,959 --> 02:44:46,640
Speaker 10: be a Cia agent, so he sends a squad of

2536
02:44:46,680 --> 02:44:51,000
Speaker 10: six members of his cult to Weisman's apartment and they

2537
02:44:51,040 --> 02:44:55,520
Speaker 10: held her a hostage and cranked up Beaethovern music to

2538
02:44:55,680 --> 02:45:03,080
Speaker 10: deafening levels. Why because Laruche believed that Beethoven's tunes could

2539
02:45:03,080 --> 02:45:10,720
Speaker 10: somehow deprogram Manchurian candidates. Wizman managed to toss out a

2540
02:45:10,800 --> 02:45:13,120
Speaker 10: note through the window and a passerby picked it up

2541
02:45:13,160 --> 02:45:16,400
Speaker 10: and alerted the police, so she was rescued, but then

2542
02:45:16,600 --> 02:45:23,320
Speaker 10: she chose not to press charges against her captives. Larusha

2543
02:45:23,320 --> 02:45:27,520
Speaker 10: turned this party at this point, with one thousand members

2544
02:45:27,560 --> 02:45:30,280
Speaker 10: in three seven offices in North America and twenty six

2545
02:45:30,360 --> 02:45:34,320
Speaker 10: in Europe and Latin America, into an extreme right, anti

2546
02:45:34,320 --> 02:45:39,199
Speaker 10: Semitic organization, despite the presence of Jewish members. In fact,

2547
02:45:39,920 --> 02:45:45,440
Speaker 10: Carol herself was Jewish and she stuck around Dennis King.

2548
02:45:45,520 --> 02:45:50,000
Speaker 10: The biographer's were called earlier found a deep connection between

2549
02:45:50,040 --> 02:45:54,359
Speaker 10: LaRouche and fascist and United groups. In the early eighties,

2550
02:45:54,440 --> 02:45:59,080
Speaker 10: Laruche used a Strategic Defense Initiative or star Wars to

2551
02:45:59,080 --> 02:46:03,320
Speaker 10: bring together fright forces from Europe and America. He was

2552
02:46:03,320 --> 02:46:09,760
Speaker 10: even promoting like Revanism and defending Nazi war criminals, and

2553
02:46:09,800 --> 02:46:13,400
Speaker 10: he was known for blending his usual conspiracy theories with

2554
02:46:13,480 --> 02:46:18,359
Speaker 10: anti Semitism, particularly towards the British. He blamed the Rothschild

2555
02:46:18,520 --> 02:46:23,600
Speaker 10: for running Great Britain, and he was a typical Holocaust denier. Yeah,

2556
02:46:24,760 --> 02:46:28,760
Speaker 10: I really, I generally wonder why Carol left him, but

2557
02:46:28,800 --> 02:46:32,040
Speaker 10: I also wonder why she stuck around in the group anyway.

2558
02:46:33,520 --> 02:46:37,200
Speaker 10: The Anti Defamation League labeled the Rushes NCLC as the

2559
02:46:37,280 --> 02:46:41,440
Speaker 10: closest thing to an American fascist party, and well that

2560
02:46:41,520 --> 02:46:45,000
Speaker 10: begs the question what was life like in that party?

2561
02:46:45,480 --> 02:46:45,760
Speaker 1: Yeah?

2562
02:46:45,840 --> 02:46:49,879
Speaker 10: I mean I remember you Garrison describing a good party

2563
02:46:50,720 --> 02:46:51,000
Speaker 10: as a.

2564
02:46:51,040 --> 02:46:55,960
Speaker 1: Color well, and see, I think part of part of

2565
02:46:56,000 --> 02:46:58,840
Speaker 1: the problem is when you know, a house party turns

2566
02:46:58,879 --> 02:47:01,680
Speaker 1: into a political party and then.

2567
02:47:01,280 --> 02:47:06,240
Speaker 10: To a fascist party. Yeah, but never ends. Yeah. So

2568
02:47:06,320 --> 02:47:09,120
Speaker 10: Larush was using these really sneaky tactics to drive a

2569
02:47:09,120 --> 02:47:13,480
Speaker 10: wedge between Laruge members and their families, partners, and spouses.

2570
02:47:15,080 --> 02:47:18,920
Speaker 10: There were members of Larusiu's elite who convinced one person

2571
02:47:19,160 --> 02:47:22,240
Speaker 10: that their own dad was laundering money secretly for the

2572
02:47:22,280 --> 02:47:26,920
Speaker 10: drug trade. This organization was telling their members where they

2573
02:47:26,959 --> 02:47:30,279
Speaker 10: could live, what car to buy, when to quit their jobs,

2574
02:47:30,480 --> 02:47:33,160
Speaker 10: what they should read, what they should watch, how to

2575
02:47:33,440 --> 02:47:36,360
Speaker 10: scam their parents out of money, how and when to

2576
02:47:36,400 --> 02:47:38,080
Speaker 10: break up with their partners.

2577
02:47:40,000 --> 02:47:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all.

2578
02:47:42,720 --> 02:47:45,240
Speaker 10: And then while all this is going on, Larush movement

2579
02:47:45,280 --> 02:47:48,640
Speaker 10: is also swapping out the red flags of Trotskyism for

2580
02:47:48,760 --> 02:47:52,480
Speaker 10: good old or red, white and blue. Members were soon

2581
02:47:52,720 --> 02:47:58,400
Speaker 10: educated with the ideas of Alexander Hamilton, right, oh god.

2582
02:47:58,840 --> 02:48:02,160
Speaker 10: Hamilton's economic seats were basically the American version of what

2583
02:48:02,240 --> 02:48:05,959
Speaker 10: Marx represented in Europe, according to l Aruge. And forget

2584
02:48:05,959 --> 02:48:09,119
Speaker 10: about Marx. They're not reading Marx anymore now, they're reading

2585
02:48:09,200 --> 02:48:13,600
Speaker 10: Plato and Dante. In nineteen eighty they even told the

2586
02:48:13,640 --> 02:48:18,000
Speaker 10: members to vote for Reagan. Yeah, cool stuff, cool stuff,

2587
02:48:18,040 --> 02:48:18,680
Speaker 10: cool stuff.

2588
02:48:19,040 --> 02:48:24,160
Speaker 1: No, they dropped their left noted a platonist philosopher, Ronald Reagan.

2589
02:48:25,040 --> 02:48:27,959
Speaker 10: Yeah, they basically dropped any veneer of left leaning in

2590
02:48:28,000 --> 02:48:30,680
Speaker 10: their recreupment tactics. And then they started doing things like

2591
02:48:30,720 --> 02:48:36,520
Speaker 10: soliciting people at airports and bus terminals. And these members

2592
02:48:36,520 --> 02:48:38,959
Speaker 10: they were caught in this whirlwind. They didn't have time

2593
02:48:39,000 --> 02:48:41,360
Speaker 10: to read, to think, to get a decent night's sleep.

2594
02:48:41,720 --> 02:48:45,040
Speaker 10: They were working twelve hour shifts and getting paid peanuts,

2595
02:48:45,080 --> 02:48:47,039
Speaker 10: like one hundred dollars one hundred and twenty five dollars

2596
02:48:47,120 --> 02:48:49,400
Speaker 10: a week, and sometimes they'd even get paid at all.

2597
02:48:50,080 --> 02:48:53,400
Speaker 10: They were in a constant state of mobilization, living an

2598
02:48:53,440 --> 02:48:57,800
Speaker 10: adrenaline ready for anything, And finally, in nineteen eighty one,

2599
02:48:58,280 --> 02:49:00,840
Speaker 10: around three hundred and six hundred people they had had

2600
02:49:01,000 --> 02:49:05,200
Speaker 10: enough and left the organization. Some of them were formal leftists,

2601
02:49:05,240 --> 02:49:09,120
Speaker 10: but not all. Those who stuck around the die hard

2602
02:49:09,160 --> 02:49:15,360
Speaker 10: cult members completely under Larushe's control. Would it surprise you,

2603
02:49:15,400 --> 02:49:18,400
Speaker 10: gusn to learn that the Rushe was a scammer?

2604
02:49:19,400 --> 02:49:25,080
Speaker 1: Oh? You're saying that the person involved in running the

2605
02:49:25,120 --> 02:49:30,000
Speaker 1: cult was also a prolific grifter and someone who tried

2606
02:49:30,040 --> 02:49:32,920
Speaker 1: to scam other people. Are really really Yeah.

2607
02:49:32,959 --> 02:49:35,280
Speaker 10: A lot of people don't know this, but cult leaders

2608
02:49:35,280 --> 02:49:39,600
Speaker 10: and scammers actually go hand in hand. Ah yeah, yeah.

2609
02:49:39,840 --> 02:49:42,959
Speaker 10: Larush was a master of operating through a network of

2610
02:49:43,040 --> 02:49:48,440
Speaker 10: front organizations. He created the Fusion Energy Foundation, getting support

2611
02:49:48,440 --> 02:49:52,560
Speaker 10: from nuclear and aerospace industries to run a private intelligence

2612
02:49:52,600 --> 02:49:56,160
Speaker 10: to this focusing on terrorists and drug cartels. Get this.

2613
02:49:56,720 --> 02:49:59,760
Speaker 10: He even met with top officials from the National Security

2614
02:49:59,800 --> 02:50:02,840
Speaker 10: com SO and the CIA in the eighties, despite his

2615
02:50:02,920 --> 02:50:06,600
Speaker 10: parannoying about the CIA, and he somehow managed to get

2616
02:50:06,720 --> 02:50:08,440
Speaker 10: White House access.

2617
02:50:08,760 --> 02:50:13,920
Speaker 1: What Yeah? Why? How?

2618
02:50:15,879 --> 02:50:20,080
Speaker 10: Yeah? He eventually infiltrated the Democratic Party and ran for

2619
02:50:20,160 --> 02:50:24,200
Speaker 10: president several times, and he launched the Proposition sixty four

2620
02:50:24,200 --> 02:50:28,120
Speaker 10: initiative in California in the eighties, Aiman to impose strict

2621
02:50:28,160 --> 02:50:32,360
Speaker 10: public health policies for AIDS, which public health officials rejected.

2622
02:50:33,280 --> 02:50:35,920
Speaker 10: But basically he was instrumental and spreading a lot of

2623
02:50:36,040 --> 02:50:39,480
Speaker 10: unnecessary fear about AIDS. In fact, he was advocating for

2624
02:50:39,640 --> 02:50:42,160
Speaker 10: lynch mobs to deal with the AIDE crisis.

2625
02:50:42,520 --> 02:50:45,440
Speaker 1: Oh so he wasn't like spreading good health information when

2626
02:50:45,440 --> 02:50:48,640
Speaker 1: everyone was ignoring the problem. He was being like, we should,

2627
02:50:48,680 --> 02:50:49,760
Speaker 1: we should just killed everybody.

2628
02:50:50,480 --> 02:50:51,320
Speaker 10: Yeah, pretty much?

2629
02:50:51,480 --> 02:50:54,320
Speaker 1: Okay, I got h But you.

2630
02:50:54,280 --> 02:50:57,800
Speaker 10: Know, every scammer has their day, and one of his

2631
02:50:57,879 --> 02:51:01,840
Speaker 10: scams got him in the pen. You see, LaRouche had

2632
02:51:01,879 --> 02:51:04,480
Speaker 10: a knack for recruit in the offspring of the wealthy

2633
02:51:04,920 --> 02:51:08,560
Speaker 10: and separating them from their money, to put it euphemistically.

2634
02:51:09,840 --> 02:51:15,359
Speaker 10: One of his most famous recruits was Louis DuPont Smith

2635
02:51:15,879 --> 02:51:20,440
Speaker 10: a DuPont here that DuPont, who gave a whop in

2636
02:51:20,640 --> 02:51:24,320
Speaker 10: two hundred and twelve thousand dollars to Laruge. He even

2637
02:51:24,400 --> 02:51:29,040
Speaker 10: moved close to Laruge, but Eventually, the DuPont family intervened,

2638
02:51:29,440 --> 02:51:31,640
Speaker 10: had him declared mentally ill, and put him on a

2639
02:51:31,720 --> 02:51:36,520
Speaker 10: monthly stipend. Still, Laruche was making a royal bank. His

2640
02:51:36,640 --> 02:51:39,640
Speaker 10: empire was growing. He had one hundred and seventy two

2641
02:51:39,680 --> 02:51:43,280
Speaker 10: acre estate in Virginia serving as his center of operations,

2642
02:51:43,600 --> 02:51:47,760
Speaker 10: which had phone banks, offices, a printing plant guarded twenty

2643
02:51:47,800 --> 02:51:51,720
Speaker 10: four to seven by armed individuals. But the Empire of

2644
02:51:51,800 --> 02:51:56,720
Speaker 10: LaRouche eventually went into a decline. This lust for publicity

2645
02:51:56,840 --> 02:52:00,400
Speaker 10: caught the attention of the public and federal officials, and

2646
02:52:00,440 --> 02:52:03,320
Speaker 10: his phone bank operator started to make an unauthorized credit

2647
02:52:03,320 --> 02:52:04,359
Speaker 10: card withdrawals.

2648
02:52:04,560 --> 02:52:08,000
Speaker 1: I mean he he was like going to the White House.

2649
02:52:08,800 --> 02:52:12,360
Speaker 1: How did he how did he try to like stay

2650
02:52:12,480 --> 02:52:16,560
Speaker 1: under the federal radar? He was literally in the in

2651
02:52:17,240 --> 02:52:21,720
Speaker 1: the one spot, the one place exactly exactly.

2652
02:52:23,160 --> 02:52:26,879
Speaker 10: It's it's it's baffling, But Dennis Kidding has a book

2653
02:52:26,920 --> 02:52:30,400
Speaker 10: all about it, so you could check it out. In

2654
02:52:30,480 --> 02:52:34,119
Speaker 10: nineteen eighty seven, he faced a trial on credit card

2655
02:52:34,200 --> 02:52:38,880
Speaker 10: fraud and conspiracy to obstruct justice, which ended in a mistrial.

2656
02:52:39,720 --> 02:52:42,480
Speaker 10: Then a subsequent trial convicted him out in various charges,

2657
02:52:42,520 --> 02:52:45,000
Speaker 10: and he ended up in a federal penitentiary in nineteen

2658
02:52:45,000 --> 02:52:49,039
Speaker 10: eighty nine. And what do all great cult leaders, or

2659
02:52:49,040 --> 02:52:51,119
Speaker 10: what do many great cult leaders do on the in jail?

2660
02:52:52,959 --> 02:52:54,720
Speaker 10: Some of them write book books?

2661
02:52:55,120 --> 02:52:59,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, all right, I'm back on now, Okay.

2662
02:53:00,600 --> 02:53:04,039
Speaker 10: So Laruci decides to write a book called In Defense

2663
02:53:04,080 --> 02:53:09,759
Speaker 10: of Common Sense. It's a mix of obscure geometric illustrations,

2664
02:53:10,360 --> 02:53:15,400
Speaker 10: a passionate defense of Platonism, attributes to the seventeenth century

2665
02:53:15,400 --> 02:53:20,760
Speaker 10: astronomer Johannes Kepler, and some heavy denunciations of philosophers like

2666
02:53:20,840 --> 02:53:24,160
Speaker 10: Kan't and most philosophers post Plato. In fact, as far

2667
02:53:24,200 --> 02:53:28,160
Speaker 10: as larus was concerned, every philosopher after Plato sucked.

2668
02:53:28,680 --> 02:53:31,720
Speaker 1: That's so funny, that's really funny.

2669
02:53:32,280 --> 02:53:37,039
Speaker 10: Incredibly, But at its core his book In Defense of

2670
02:53:37,040 --> 02:53:43,359
Speaker 10: Common Sense was Laruche restating his modernist, somehow marks inspired worldview.

2671
02:53:44,440 --> 02:53:48,560
Speaker 10: We argue that scientific and technological progress set humanity apart

2672
02:53:48,600 --> 02:53:51,720
Speaker 10: from all other creatures, and it naturally leads to increased

2673
02:53:51,760 --> 02:53:55,400
Speaker 10: population density. In Larucia's eyes, there's no room for any

2674
02:53:55,560 --> 02:53:58,800
Speaker 10: entropic view that suggests a limit to human technology and

2675
02:53:58,840 --> 02:54:03,800
Speaker 10: population growth. He even coined the term negantropic to advocate

2676
02:54:03,840 --> 02:54:09,600
Speaker 10: for ongoing industrial and population expansion no matter what. All right,

2677
02:54:09,640 --> 02:54:12,920
Speaker 10: But so then if you didn't, okay, maybe you listen

2678
02:54:13,040 --> 02:54:14,760
Speaker 10: to this and you're like, none of this is all

2679
02:54:14,959 --> 02:54:19,160
Speaker 10: dramatic and wild or whatever. Here's where it gets even wilder.

2680
02:54:19,200 --> 02:54:21,680
Speaker 10: This is where we get to the intersection of Lynn

2681
02:54:21,840 --> 02:54:28,080
Speaker 10: Laruche and Elon Musk that we colonize Mars.

2682
02:54:28,520 --> 02:54:33,440
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, honestly the whole his other what was

2683
02:54:33,480 --> 02:54:39,240
Speaker 1: the term he just said, like neutra, Yeah, that that

2684
02:54:39,440 --> 02:54:44,240
Speaker 1: is pretty similar to Musk's ideology as well, though pretty much.

2685
02:54:44,480 --> 02:54:50,360
Speaker 10: Yeah, And so LaRue says, let's go, let's colonize Mars,

2686
02:54:50,440 --> 02:54:53,160
Speaker 10: and what's that's done? In about forty years according to

2687
02:54:53,240 --> 02:54:58,000
Speaker 10: his estimation, then his philosophical standpoint will clearly rule all

2688
02:54:58,000 --> 02:55:02,600
Speaker 10: of humanity for all of time. But while the Rushes

2689
02:55:02,720 --> 02:55:07,080
Speaker 10: deep in thought behind bars his followers, they're not twiddling

2690
02:55:07,080 --> 02:55:10,800
Speaker 10: their thumbs. They joined forces with other anti war demonstrators

2691
02:55:10,840 --> 02:55:15,760
Speaker 10: to oppose the Gulf War in nineteen ninety nineteen ninety one.

2692
02:55:15,840 --> 02:55:17,760
Speaker 10: And you know, it's interesting to note that the NCLC

2693
02:55:18,040 --> 02:55:19,959
Speaker 10: was not the only voice from the right among those

2694
02:55:20,000 --> 02:55:25,600
Speaker 10: left wing demonstrators. Pat Buchanan, the Populist Party, the Liberty Lobby,

2695
02:55:25,680 --> 02:55:28,320
Speaker 10: and other ultra right and other ultra right and new

2696
02:55:28,400 --> 02:55:32,400
Speaker 10: isolationist groups formed a sort of united front with elements

2697
02:55:32,440 --> 02:55:35,120
Speaker 10: of the left in terms of that opposition to the

2698
02:55:35,120 --> 02:55:41,200
Speaker 10: Gulf War and Laruche was eventually released on parole in

2699
02:55:41,280 --> 02:55:45,480
Speaker 10: nineteen ninety four. By nineteen ninety eight, during the economic crisis,

2700
02:55:46,200 --> 02:55:52,240
Speaker 10: the Rush was demanding that Bill Clinton appoint him immediately

2701
02:55:53,160 --> 02:55:54,519
Speaker 10: as an economic advisor.

2702
02:55:54,840 --> 02:55:57,320
Speaker 1: Sounds like a good idea. Yeah, no, he seems he

2703
02:55:57,360 --> 02:55:58,960
Speaker 1: seems well qualified.

2704
02:55:59,280 --> 02:56:02,959
Speaker 10: And I code it was now time to abandon crisis

2705
02:56:03,000 --> 02:56:08,199
Speaker 10: management and Chili shaian. In other words, democracy. Laruge believed

2706
02:56:08,280 --> 02:56:12,959
Speaker 10: in the inherent tendency of popular opinion toward mediocrity. The

2707
02:56:13,080 --> 02:56:16,680
Speaker 10: very tendency to rely upon collective decisions rather than decisions

2708
02:56:16,680 --> 02:56:21,200
Speaker 10: based upon voundation of principle is itself a wellspring of mediocrity,

2709
02:56:21,879 --> 02:56:25,400
Speaker 10: he fully explained to proposed as symbol of virtual ravel

2710
02:56:25,440 --> 02:56:29,320
Speaker 10: of decision makers, usually featuring those parties who are still

2711
02:56:29,400 --> 02:56:32,359
Speaker 10: advocates of the policies which have caused and advocated the crisis.

2712
02:56:32,720 --> 02:56:35,840
Speaker 10: Is scarcely a noble enterprise nor a fruitful one. Some

2713
02:56:36,000 --> 02:56:39,959
Speaker 10: relatively few in the position to influence directives must preempt

2714
02:56:39,959 --> 02:56:42,800
Speaker 10: the situation. Just in case there should be any question

2715
02:56:42,959 --> 02:56:46,720
Speaker 10: as to Larush's concept of governance, he declared China to

2716
02:56:46,760 --> 02:56:48,920
Speaker 10: be probably one of the best governments in the world

2717
02:56:48,959 --> 02:56:52,000
Speaker 10: today in terms of quality of leadership, the kind of

2718
02:56:52,080 --> 02:56:57,240
Speaker 10: leadership required to get through crisis. Laruche, like Mussolini and

2719
02:56:57,280 --> 02:57:02,760
Speaker 10: Hitler before him, borrowed from marx and unchanged his theories completely.

2720
02:57:03,600 --> 02:57:03,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2721
02:57:03,920 --> 02:57:08,040
Speaker 10: Yeah, Marxist internationalist outclook was abandoned in favor of the

2722
02:57:08,160 --> 02:57:11,600
Speaker 10: nation state. Marxist goal of abolish and capitalism was replaced

2723
02:57:11,640 --> 02:57:15,959
Speaker 10: by a model of a tutalitarian state that is still

2724
02:57:16,360 --> 02:57:20,840
Speaker 10: primarily in the hands of private corporations and their owners, who,

2725
02:57:20,879 --> 02:57:24,760
Speaker 10: by the way, would have to take orders from the rouge. Now.

2726
02:57:24,920 --> 02:57:31,920
Speaker 10: Hitler called his national so his schema national socialist socialism.

2727
02:57:32,720 --> 02:57:34,240
Speaker 1: Interesting, curious.

2728
02:57:34,959 --> 02:57:37,879
Speaker 10: Larusha was a fan, but he was like, you know,

2729
02:57:37,920 --> 02:57:41,240
Speaker 10: let's add a little spice, let's give it some American branded.

2730
02:57:41,360 --> 02:57:46,600
Speaker 10: So Larush called his system and ideology the American system.

2731
02:57:46,720 --> 02:57:49,200
Speaker 1: It's a little bit less catchy, I gotta say.

2732
02:57:50,720 --> 02:57:53,640
Speaker 10: I mean, that's that's the story of than the rush.

2733
02:57:54,320 --> 02:57:59,480
Speaker 1: He died, obviously, most people do. There's there's only a

2734
02:57:59,480 --> 02:58:03,800
Speaker 1: few that have not died. Enoch and I think I think,

2735
02:58:03,840 --> 02:58:07,039
Speaker 1: like one or two others, but most people, most people

2736
02:58:07,080 --> 02:58:08,440
Speaker 1: do do in fact die.

2737
02:58:08,920 --> 02:58:13,320
Speaker 10: Yeah. Yeah, he was really quite the guy. He died

2738
02:58:13,320 --> 02:58:14,879
Speaker 10: into on the nineteen by.

2739
02:58:14,720 --> 02:58:17,320
Speaker 1: The way, Oh no, that that recent.

2740
02:58:18,160 --> 02:58:20,039
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, he lived a really long time. He had

2741
02:58:20,120 --> 02:58:22,680
Speaker 10: lived for a hundred years for Crownald Load did.

2742
02:58:22,560 --> 02:58:26,920
Speaker 1: Not realize he was still kicking around so so recently.

2743
02:58:27,480 --> 02:58:33,320
Speaker 11: Yeah, gone too soon him a right, yeah, yeah, absolutely,

2744
02:58:34,720 --> 02:58:36,959
Speaker 11: at least at least now he's in heaven with Ruth

2745
02:58:37,000 --> 02:58:37,720
Speaker 11: Bader Ginsburg.

2746
02:58:37,760 --> 02:58:39,520
Speaker 1: That's that's yeah, that's why.

2747
02:58:39,800 --> 02:58:40,880
Speaker 10: Why do the good die young?

2748
02:58:41,120 --> 02:58:41,320
Speaker 7: You know?

2749
02:58:43,600 --> 02:58:45,040
Speaker 1: Oh, he was just a kid.

2750
02:58:48,200 --> 02:58:51,720
Speaker 10: So as we conclude our journey and the enigmatic will

2751
02:58:51,760 --> 02:58:54,400
Speaker 10: live in the Rouge, I think we left with more

2752
02:58:54,480 --> 02:59:00,080
Speaker 10: questions and answers. How did a man on the fringe

2753
02:59:00,200 --> 02:59:03,720
Speaker 10: of radical politics end up in the White House?

2754
02:59:04,640 --> 02:59:07,160
Speaker 1: Yeah? That is that is That is one question I

2755
02:59:07,200 --> 02:59:11,280
Speaker 1: actually still have thinking about is what were the conditions

2756
02:59:11,360 --> 02:59:13,959
Speaker 1: to his White House visits and.

2757
02:59:13,840 --> 02:59:17,080
Speaker 10: What led to his transformation from a committed leftist to

2758
02:59:17,440 --> 02:59:19,039
Speaker 10: a fascist. I mean I think we could see the

2759
02:59:19,080 --> 02:59:19,520
Speaker 10: science of.

2760
02:59:19,480 --> 02:59:21,560
Speaker 1: That, right ear yeah, yes, yeah.

2761
02:59:21,600 --> 02:59:25,640
Speaker 10: In the sixties, the Rouge displayed egotism and hints of instability,

2762
02:59:25,760 --> 02:59:30,760
Speaker 10: but he was also an intelligent individual who attracted serious intellectuals.

2763
02:59:31,720 --> 02:59:37,560
Speaker 10: His ideas, well sometimes peculiar, were generally rational, but it

2764
02:59:37,640 --> 02:59:40,400
Speaker 10: was the adulation of students allowed him to gather a

2765
02:59:40,560 --> 02:59:45,640
Speaker 10: following around his ideas and personality. The collapse of student

2766
02:59:45,720 --> 02:59:48,080
Speaker 10: radicalism the seventies that the stage from his shift from

2767
02:59:48,160 --> 02:59:51,119
Speaker 10: left to right and the unwavering loyalty of his followers

2768
02:59:51,400 --> 02:59:55,160
Speaker 10: likely reinforced his increasingly psychotic worldview and perception of his

2769
02:59:55,280 --> 02:59:59,760
Speaker 10: role in it. The Rush was convinced that he deserved worship,

2770
03:00:00,840 --> 03:00:04,280
Speaker 10: he was an intellect. He was fueled by his ideology

2771
03:00:04,320 --> 03:00:08,960
Speaker 10: of catastrophism that he as the elite, would play a

2772
03:00:09,000 --> 03:00:14,400
Speaker 10: significant role as see if You Have Humanity. The practices

2773
03:00:14,440 --> 03:00:18,000
Speaker 10: of his organization resembled many of the extreme religious thought

2774
03:00:18,040 --> 03:00:18,800
Speaker 10: control groups.

2775
03:00:19,560 --> 03:00:19,720
Speaker 1: UH.

2776
03:00:20,440 --> 03:00:23,840
Speaker 10: The practice of ideological totalism is very clear, The authoritarian

2777
03:00:23,879 --> 03:00:27,080
Speaker 10: structure is very clear. The paranoia foster to create a

2778
03:00:27,080 --> 03:00:30,160
Speaker 10: clear boundaries in the group and the outside world don't

2779
03:00:30,200 --> 03:00:30,560
Speaker 10: be likely.

2780
03:00:30,800 --> 03:00:39,160
Speaker 12: L aruchease please and watch out for his wanna be

2781
03:00:39,320 --> 03:00:43,640
Speaker 12: is I feel like kle Morpins is the Laruche of

2782
03:00:43,680 --> 03:00:44,359
Speaker 12: this generation.

2783
03:00:44,840 --> 03:00:48,200
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I mean I hope I don't see

2784
03:00:48,240 --> 03:00:54,480
Speaker 1: Marpin getting invited to the White House anytime soon, nor

2785
03:00:54,520 --> 03:00:59,720
Speaker 1: other characters like Chairman Bob. Yeah, I don't know. We

2786
03:00:59,800 --> 03:01:02,520
Speaker 1: live a different time. I think because of how the

2787
03:01:02,560 --> 03:01:05,880
Speaker 1: Internet works, there's a lot there's there's much more cult

2788
03:01:05,959 --> 03:01:08,760
Speaker 1: leaders just dispersed everywhere all the time.

2789
03:01:09,440 --> 03:01:13,520
Speaker 10: But it's almost it's almost the democratization of cult leadership.

2790
03:01:14,040 --> 03:01:17,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's also made them more or less isolated

2791
03:01:17,200 --> 03:01:21,280
Speaker 1: to the Internet with occasional flare ups in the real world,

2792
03:01:21,440 --> 03:01:25,160
Speaker 1: which kind of which kind of limits their engagement with

2793
03:01:25,240 --> 03:01:27,199
Speaker 1: you know, normal people, so to speak.

2794
03:01:28,080 --> 03:01:32,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's kind of help cults, right, they can't even

2795
03:01:32,000 --> 03:01:33,880
Speaker 10: communicate with people outside of them anymore.

2796
03:01:34,200 --> 03:01:36,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think part of part of that is

2797
03:01:36,480 --> 03:01:39,600
Speaker 1: definitely happening here on on on on the Internet, where

2798
03:01:39,760 --> 03:01:43,720
Speaker 1: there's just so many of them that they they're all

2799
03:01:43,840 --> 03:01:47,280
Speaker 1: very small, they're all very isolated, and they don't ever

2800
03:01:47,320 --> 03:01:49,240
Speaker 1: really break out of their bubble, which which you know

2801
03:01:49,360 --> 03:01:52,000
Speaker 1: is common with with with a lot of a lot

2802
03:01:52,040 --> 03:01:52,440
Speaker 1: of cults.

2803
03:01:52,520 --> 03:01:52,640
Speaker 7: Right.

2804
03:01:52,920 --> 03:01:55,760
Speaker 1: The ones that we only really know about or hear

2805
03:01:55,800 --> 03:01:58,440
Speaker 1: about are the ones that you know, ended up doing

2806
03:01:58,480 --> 03:02:01,959
Speaker 1: some bigger, big, horrific think at some point, you know,

2807
03:02:02,080 --> 03:02:05,520
Speaker 1: in that that generated you know a lot of eyeballs

2808
03:02:05,560 --> 03:02:08,800
Speaker 1: on them. But for every for every Heaven's Gate, there's like,

2809
03:02:09,360 --> 03:02:11,840
Speaker 1: you know, a dozen new age cults that just fly

2810
03:02:12,200 --> 03:02:15,680
Speaker 1: right under the radar that are still like horribly horribly abusive.

2811
03:02:16,040 --> 03:02:20,000
Speaker 1: They just yeah, they just they just might not be

2812
03:02:20,040 --> 03:02:23,840
Speaker 1: tied to like a horrific act of like mass murder

2813
03:02:23,920 --> 03:02:24,800
Speaker 1: and mass suicide.

2814
03:02:25,200 --> 03:02:27,920
Speaker 10: That's a scary thoughts. You know how many cults have

2815
03:02:28,000 --> 03:02:30,920
Speaker 10: not yet broken containment as it were.

2816
03:02:32,160 --> 03:02:36,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's uh, it's a fun time to to

2817
03:02:36,360 --> 03:02:38,240
Speaker 1: be alive, surely.

2818
03:02:38,240 --> 03:02:42,039
Speaker 10: Indeed, So yeah, I mean, I hope I hope that

2819
03:02:42,120 --> 03:02:47,480
Speaker 10: the bodiuns has enjoyed this cautionary tale, a reminder of

2820
03:02:47,560 --> 03:02:52,520
Speaker 10: the profound and sometimes dangerous paths the ideology can take

2821
03:02:52,520 --> 03:02:58,439
Speaker 10: individuals and groups. Done once again, and Andrew and Andres,

2822
03:02:59,440 --> 03:03:03,199
Speaker 10: this is Garrison of Garrison of myself.

2823
03:03:03,280 --> 03:03:23,520
Speaker 4: Yes, and this has been in happening peace, Welcome to Dick.

2824
03:03:23,560 --> 03:03:27,080
Speaker 4: It happened here a podcast being recorded in the like

2825
03:03:27,480 --> 03:03:31,560
Speaker 4: last hours of Halloween in in the the I guess

2826
03:03:31,600 --> 03:03:35,400
Speaker 4: the closing minutes of a teacher is in Portland not

2827
03:03:35,520 --> 03:03:37,959
Speaker 4: being on strike. So yeah, this is this is a

2828
03:03:37,959 --> 03:03:40,640
Speaker 4: podcast that is often about strikes and here to talk

2829
03:03:40,680 --> 03:03:42,920
Speaker 4: with me about this is Britney Doris, who's a fifth

2830
03:03:42,920 --> 03:03:45,960
Speaker 4: grade teacher in Portland public schools, who's the union captain

2831
03:03:46,000 --> 03:03:49,119
Speaker 4: for her school and the strike captain also for her school. Brittany,

2832
03:03:49,120 --> 03:03:49,879
Speaker 4: welcome to the show.

2833
03:03:50,600 --> 03:03:51,720
Speaker 5: Hi, glad to be here.

2834
03:03:52,480 --> 03:03:56,120
Speaker 4: I'm really glad to talk to you. So all right,

2835
03:03:56,160 --> 03:03:59,200
Speaker 4: we are we are in we are in zero hour. Yeah,

2836
03:03:59,240 --> 03:04:01,160
Speaker 4: we're in the zero the strike by the time this

2837
03:04:01,240 --> 03:04:03,120
Speaker 4: comes out, like, I guess you have been on strike

2838
03:04:03,160 --> 03:04:08,240
Speaker 4: for like two days, yeah, assuming it's comes off Friday. Yeah,

2839
03:04:08,320 --> 03:04:12,119
Speaker 4: So all right. I think the place we should start

2840
03:04:12,160 --> 03:04:14,879
Speaker 4: probably for people who are not in Portland, people who

2841
03:04:14,879 --> 03:04:18,119
Speaker 4: haven't been following this. I guess we should start with

2842
03:04:18,240 --> 03:04:21,760
Speaker 4: what are the sort of conditions that have led to this.

2843
03:04:21,879 --> 03:04:25,920
Speaker 4: I have heard some absolutely wild things about what's happening

2844
03:04:26,400 --> 03:04:27,560
Speaker 4: for the schools right now.

2845
03:04:27,640 --> 03:04:34,240
Speaker 5: So how did we give here? Yeah, we've been negotiating

2846
03:04:34,280 --> 03:04:38,959
Speaker 5: or bargaining this contract for over a year and pushing

2847
03:04:39,120 --> 03:04:43,400
Speaker 5: for circumstances that are just better suited for our students.

2848
03:04:44,120 --> 03:04:47,480
Speaker 5: Some of our classrooms that we're dealing with situations like

2849
03:04:47,920 --> 03:04:53,760
Speaker 5: rodents and mold, and still some buildings dealing with lead

2850
03:04:53,840 --> 03:04:59,600
Speaker 5: in their water. Extreme temperatures, like class sizes are huge,

2851
03:04:59,640 --> 03:05:04,000
Speaker 5: but different depending on where you're at in the city. Like,

2852
03:05:04,080 --> 03:05:09,800
Speaker 5: we've just been overcompensating with less since the pandemic times,

2853
03:05:10,280 --> 03:05:12,960
Speaker 5: and we're fed up, we're not able to do it anymore.

2854
03:05:13,080 --> 03:05:16,720
Speaker 5: And yeah, we're strike ready.

2855
03:05:17,080 --> 03:05:20,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean this is something, this is, this

2856
03:05:20,280 --> 03:05:22,400
Speaker 4: is this is I think a pretty interesting set of

2857
03:05:22,440 --> 03:05:26,000
Speaker 4: circumstances because my understanding and okay, so don't quote me

2858
03:05:26,040 --> 03:05:30,680
Speaker 4: on this. I'm pretty sure that the last time that

2859
03:05:30,760 --> 03:05:33,800
Speaker 4: Portland teachers went on strike was in the like actually

2860
03:05:34,200 --> 03:05:36,680
Speaker 4: ended up striking and not just doing this strike authorization

2861
03:05:36,800 --> 03:05:39,440
Speaker 4: vote was the was was during the eighties, so it

2862
03:05:39,520 --> 03:05:42,360
Speaker 4: has been it has been a really long time.

2863
03:05:42,760 --> 03:05:44,240
Speaker 5: It's literal lifetime.

2864
03:05:45,120 --> 03:05:46,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like I was not I was like two

2865
03:05:47,040 --> 03:05:50,080
Speaker 4: of my lifetimes effectively, like I was on a line

2866
03:05:50,120 --> 03:05:50,400
Speaker 4: for this.

2867
03:05:50,560 --> 03:05:56,240
Speaker 5: So yeah, I think we're seeing that shift happen nationwide.

2868
03:05:56,440 --> 03:06:00,400
Speaker 5: That education has been continuously public education and has been

2869
03:06:00,440 --> 03:06:05,520
Speaker 5: continuously chipped away at and eroded over the last few decades,

2870
03:06:05,760 --> 03:06:08,959
Speaker 5: and more and more responsibility has put on the been

2871
03:06:09,000 --> 03:06:12,440
Speaker 5: put on the backs of teachers, and we are not

2872
03:06:12,720 --> 03:06:19,080
Speaker 5: able to function under this workload, under these conditions and

2873
03:06:19,240 --> 03:06:25,480
Speaker 5: without increased support for the educators as well. So I

2874
03:06:25,520 --> 03:06:28,080
Speaker 5: think this is the culmination of kind of years and

2875
03:06:28,160 --> 03:06:33,119
Speaker 5: years of disinvestment in public education nationwide, and so you're

2876
03:06:33,200 --> 03:06:37,800
Speaker 5: seeing a lot more strikes, educational strikes coming up throughout

2877
03:06:37,800 --> 03:06:41,039
Speaker 5: the country, and particularly for Portland's history. Like you said,

2878
03:06:41,040 --> 03:06:44,920
Speaker 5: it's if Portland public schools have striked in the past,

2879
03:06:45,000 --> 03:06:48,200
Speaker 5: it's been literal decades, not in my lifetime, not in

2880
03:06:48,240 --> 03:06:54,240
Speaker 5: your lifetime, and just the continued frustration of decades of struggle.

2881
03:06:56,160 --> 03:06:59,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I mean, as from what I've heard from

2882
03:06:59,080 --> 03:07:01,640
Speaker 4: from people in this so the line that I got

2883
03:07:01,720 --> 03:07:05,280
Speaker 4: was that janitors were being told that the standard they

2884
03:07:05,320 --> 03:07:09,039
Speaker 4: were supposed to clean schools too was quote moderately dingy.

2885
03:07:09,760 --> 03:07:11,680
Speaker 1: So things seemed not good.

2886
03:07:12,520 --> 03:07:17,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's rough. There's there's rodents everywhere. Our custodial workers

2887
03:07:17,720 --> 03:07:21,879
Speaker 5: are already worked to the limit and understaffed, and so

2888
03:07:22,000 --> 03:07:24,920
Speaker 5: our buildings show. I mean, the school that I work

2889
03:07:24,920 --> 03:07:27,480
Speaker 5: in is over one hundred and ten years old, and

2890
03:07:27,720 --> 03:07:31,240
Speaker 5: you can tell it's not being up kept and students

2891
03:07:31,240 --> 03:07:35,039
Speaker 5: are suffering. The conditions are, like you said, dingy, a

2892
03:07:35,160 --> 03:07:40,240
Speaker 5: moderate level of approved dinginess supposedly, and that's gross.

2893
03:07:41,720 --> 03:07:44,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I mean so I've heard that complains a lot.

2894
03:07:44,680 --> 03:07:46,600
Speaker 4: I mean, I like, when I was in school, we

2895
03:07:46,640 --> 03:07:48,880
Speaker 4: only had one we had well, I mean there might

2896
03:07:48,879 --> 03:07:51,080
Speaker 4: have been more. There probably were more rats we didn't see.

2897
03:07:51,080 --> 03:07:53,200
Speaker 4: We had one drowned rat fall out of a ceiling,

2898
03:07:53,560 --> 03:07:55,800
Speaker 4: but that was it. It was. We were limited to

2899
03:07:55,959 --> 03:07:58,000
Speaker 4: one rat for four years. And I feel I feel

2900
03:07:58,040 --> 03:08:00,280
Speaker 4: like that's the maximum number of rats that you should

2901
03:08:00,320 --> 03:08:06,240
Speaker 4: encounter is maybe one. Because it's kind of funny, but yeah, yeah.

2902
03:08:05,800 --> 03:08:08,600
Speaker 5: And these are class pets, like these aren't no the

2903
03:08:08,680 --> 03:08:11,120
Speaker 5: mice and rats that you're using in a science class

2904
03:08:11,320 --> 03:08:15,280
Speaker 5: or keeping as the class pet in the corner like.

2905
03:08:15,320 --> 03:08:19,920
Speaker 4: Ooh yeah, and the other I guess. I guess The

2906
03:08:19,920 --> 03:08:22,520
Speaker 4: next thing that I wanted to talk about is class sizes,

2907
03:08:22,600 --> 03:08:24,360
Speaker 4: because I know, I mean, this is a very people

2908
03:08:24,400 --> 03:08:28,560
Speaker 4: have been like talking about this for ages, and it's

2909
03:08:28,640 --> 03:08:32,240
Speaker 4: it's something that's really I feel like it's weird negotiating wise,

2910
03:08:32,360 --> 03:08:34,560
Speaker 4: because and this is something I see all the time.

2911
03:08:34,560 --> 03:08:37,519
Speaker 4: The school dishesh will be like, well, like the admin

2912
03:08:37,600 --> 03:08:39,440
Speaker 4: will be oh, well, yeah, of course you want like

2913
03:08:39,480 --> 03:08:42,360
Speaker 4: smaller class sizes, and then they just won't do it.

2914
03:08:43,640 --> 03:08:45,119
Speaker 4: So yeah, can you talk about.

2915
03:08:45,080 --> 03:08:49,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, here's something that's really burning my biscuit. Our district

2916
03:08:49,959 --> 03:08:53,800
Speaker 5: management continues to tell our community and the press that

2917
03:08:53,879 --> 03:08:57,080
Speaker 5: our average class size is twenty three students at the

2918
03:08:57,160 --> 03:09:00,920
Speaker 5: elementary level, and the problem with that stick is that

2919
03:09:00,959 --> 03:09:03,320
Speaker 5: they are doing a ratio based on the adults in

2920
03:09:03,360 --> 03:09:06,440
Speaker 5: the building. So, for example, we have a learning coach.

2921
03:09:06,720 --> 03:09:09,520
Speaker 5: Uh huh. We have a learning coach who works with

2922
03:09:09,680 --> 03:09:12,320
Speaker 5: children in small groups throughout the building, but she herself

2923
03:09:12,360 --> 03:09:16,480
Speaker 5: is not a rostered classroom teacher, but she is put

2924
03:09:16,680 --> 03:09:20,080
Speaker 5: into that equation so that it looks like our classes

2925
03:09:20,160 --> 03:09:23,160
Speaker 5: on average are twenty three when the reality is very different.

2926
03:09:23,200 --> 03:09:26,480
Speaker 5: The music teacher doesn't count, the learning coach doesn't count.

2927
03:09:26,560 --> 03:09:29,600
Speaker 5: But in the math that the district is like that

2928
03:09:29,640 --> 03:09:32,440
Speaker 5: math ain't math in my class is thirty four kids.

2929
03:09:32,640 --> 03:09:34,880
Speaker 5: You're telling the public that the average is twenty three,

2930
03:09:34,920 --> 03:09:38,600
Speaker 5: and it's just not true because you're including adults in

2931
03:09:38,640 --> 03:09:41,840
Speaker 5: the building who aren't the host classroom teacher.

2932
03:09:42,360 --> 03:09:45,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, which is that's just that's just absurd, Like, I mean,

2933
03:09:46,200 --> 03:09:48,480
Speaker 4: you have to know that you're lying in order to

2934
03:09:48,520 --> 03:09:52,360
Speaker 4: create that statistic, Like that's a uh.

2935
03:09:52,400 --> 03:09:54,480
Speaker 5: And you know it is true that there are some

2936
03:09:55,000 --> 03:09:58,039
Speaker 5: classes around the district that are small I had a

2937
03:09:58,160 --> 03:10:00,760
Speaker 5: miracle of a class last year that was two kids.

2938
03:10:00,879 --> 03:10:03,480
Speaker 5: That coport was just small that you know, they weren't

2939
03:10:03,520 --> 03:10:06,360
Speaker 5: having as many babies eleven years ago. I don't know. Yah,

2940
03:10:06,480 --> 03:10:09,560
Speaker 5: But this year, this year, I have thirty four and

2941
03:10:09,640 --> 03:10:13,199
Speaker 5: the year prior so not last year, but the twenty

2942
03:10:13,280 --> 03:10:16,959
Speaker 5: twenty two year I had thirty two and thirty four

2943
03:10:17,040 --> 03:10:20,880
Speaker 5: kids is unsustainable, especially because I have the twenty two

2944
03:10:20,920 --> 03:10:24,080
Speaker 5: to compare it to. I am very aware of how

2945
03:10:24,160 --> 03:10:28,480
Speaker 5: little capacity I have for meeting their needs, for teaching,

2946
03:10:28,760 --> 03:10:30,760
Speaker 5: the wide range of levels that are in the class,

2947
03:10:30,800 --> 03:10:32,920
Speaker 5: even for checking in with kids. I can look out

2948
03:10:32,959 --> 03:10:35,920
Speaker 5: at my room at midday and think looking at a

2949
03:10:36,000 --> 03:10:39,280
Speaker 5: kid I don't know if I've talked to you, like,

2950
03:10:39,600 --> 03:10:41,840
Speaker 5: it's possible to go so under the radar when there

2951
03:10:41,840 --> 03:10:43,560
Speaker 5: are that many children to care for.

2952
03:10:44,600 --> 03:10:46,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean that's the difference. Is like it's

2953
03:10:46,640 --> 03:10:50,640
Speaker 4: like a forty percent class size increase right, Yeah, the year,

2954
03:10:50,720 --> 03:10:51,840
Speaker 4: which is nuts.

2955
03:10:52,200 --> 03:10:54,480
Speaker 5: And I can feel and it's having a significant impact

2956
03:10:54,560 --> 03:10:56,720
Speaker 5: on just my own well being and mental health this

2957
03:10:56,760 --> 03:10:58,959
Speaker 5: year because I know what it looks like to teach

2958
03:10:59,000 --> 03:11:01,760
Speaker 5: well and I know that I cannot currently do it

2959
03:11:01,800 --> 03:11:04,640
Speaker 5: with this many and it's hard. I last year, I

2960
03:11:04,720 --> 03:11:07,000
Speaker 5: wasn't feeling any symptoms of burnout at all. It's feeling

2961
03:11:07,000 --> 03:11:10,800
Speaker 5: really good, loving my job still. And this year, I'm like, oh,

2962
03:11:11,360 --> 03:11:14,640
Speaker 5: oh my gosh, I cannot keep up with this many kids,

2963
03:11:15,120 --> 03:11:18,480
Speaker 5: especially with you know, we've gotten even so as class

2964
03:11:18,480 --> 03:11:21,760
Speaker 5: sizes have increased, so have the needs of our students. Right,

2965
03:11:21,800 --> 03:11:24,240
Speaker 5: We're dealing with a lot more mental health issues. We're

2966
03:11:24,280 --> 03:11:27,480
Speaker 5: dealing with a wide range of neurodiversity that comes with

2967
03:11:27,520 --> 03:11:32,800
Speaker 5: different needs. And so it's that's the thirty four now

2968
03:11:33,360 --> 03:11:37,560
Speaker 5: is exponentially different than thirty four when we were young.

2969
03:11:38,640 --> 03:11:42,240
Speaker 5: It's it's intense, and it's unsustainable, and I'm living it

2970
03:11:42,280 --> 03:11:42,800
Speaker 5: every day.

2971
03:11:43,560 --> 03:11:46,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, And like you know, I think on an abstract level,

2972
03:11:46,760 --> 03:11:51,039
Speaker 4: like the district knows like that this sucks, right, but

2973
03:11:51,080 --> 03:11:53,120
Speaker 4: they just they don't fucking do anything about it.

2974
03:11:53,120 --> 03:11:58,080
Speaker 5: It's just right real, Yeah, And even to the level

2975
03:11:58,080 --> 03:12:00,560
Speaker 5: that we're able to bargain it, there are such as

2976
03:12:00,600 --> 03:12:03,600
Speaker 5: like permissive topics that we can or cannot bargain and

2977
03:12:03,640 --> 03:12:06,640
Speaker 5: things that we can bargain. And even in the strike

2978
03:12:06,680 --> 03:12:10,199
Speaker 5: that we are about to have, they continue to push

2979
03:12:10,320 --> 03:12:13,720
Speaker 5: back on the class cap request, saying that it is

2980
03:12:13,760 --> 03:12:17,520
Speaker 5: a permissive topic, and that it's class caps may only

2981
03:12:17,560 --> 03:12:20,640
Speaker 5: be applicable to what are called Title I schools, So

2982
03:12:20,760 --> 03:12:24,320
Speaker 5: schools where the population is more impacted by poverty, and

2983
03:12:24,400 --> 03:12:28,640
Speaker 5: so they're trying, like even trying to get small class

2984
03:12:28,720 --> 03:12:32,000
Speaker 5: sizes or smaller class sizes, knowing that it's a district

2985
03:12:32,040 --> 03:12:36,360
Speaker 5: wide issue may still only be successful for some parts

2986
03:12:36,360 --> 03:12:37,119
Speaker 5: of our district.

2987
03:12:37,520 --> 03:12:43,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's that, ain't right, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, that's absurd.

2988
03:12:44,560 --> 03:12:48,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like, my classroom is incredibly diverse. We are not

2989
03:12:49,000 --> 03:12:52,120
Speaker 5: a Title one school. We are known for supposedly being

2990
03:12:52,120 --> 03:12:54,880
Speaker 5: in one of the more affluent areas, but even our

2991
03:12:54,920 --> 03:12:58,879
Speaker 5: neighborhood school that those demographics have continued to change, and

2992
03:12:58,920 --> 03:13:02,760
Speaker 5: we have many students that are experiencing poverty and experiencing

2993
03:13:02,800 --> 03:13:07,200
Speaker 5: some of the cultural pieces that go with that, the

2994
03:13:07,640 --> 03:13:11,760
Speaker 5: systemic impacts of that. Our students are living through trauma.

2995
03:13:11,800 --> 03:13:16,240
Speaker 5: Our students are experiencing adversity. Our students are experiencing racism

2996
03:13:16,320 --> 03:13:21,160
Speaker 5: and sexism and homophobia, and they are jam packed sardines

2997
03:13:21,320 --> 03:13:26,480
Speaker 5: in a overheated room with no supports. I'm the only

2998
03:13:26,520 --> 03:13:29,160
Speaker 5: adult in the room to support them. I have students

2999
03:13:29,160 --> 03:13:32,240
Speaker 5: with disabilities who aren't getting support from our SPED team.

3000
03:13:32,240 --> 03:13:35,080
Speaker 5: Because our SPED team is SPED stance for special education,

3001
03:13:35,320 --> 03:13:38,959
Speaker 5: our special educators are working with some younger grade students

3002
03:13:38,959 --> 03:13:42,840
Speaker 5: with even bigger needs. So my fifth graders with disabilities

3003
03:13:42,879 --> 03:13:45,160
Speaker 5: are getting completely left in the lurch. And it is

3004
03:13:45,600 --> 03:13:51,360
Speaker 5: my single body with all thirty four and we're floundering.

3005
03:13:53,879 --> 03:13:57,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean that's another of aspect of this

3006
03:13:57,400 --> 03:14:02,480
Speaker 4: that I think is really is really grim that all

3007
03:14:02,520 --> 03:14:07,080
Speaker 4: of these issues. It's like the kids you need the

3008
03:14:07,120 --> 03:14:09,160
Speaker 4: most help from the beginning are the people who are

3009
03:14:09,160 --> 03:14:11,440
Speaker 4: getting the most hurt by it, and right, you know,

3010
03:14:11,680 --> 03:14:15,040
Speaker 4: and those are the people who the education system is

3011
03:14:15,080 --> 03:14:18,200
Speaker 4: supposed to be taken care of and just cannot because

3012
03:14:19,640 --> 03:14:24,400
Speaker 4: you know, chronic understaffing, class sizes that are too large.

3013
03:14:24,320 --> 03:14:27,840
Speaker 5: Right, and it's especially painful. I've been teaching now for

3014
03:14:27,920 --> 03:14:30,560
Speaker 5: ten years and I am looking at this class right now.

3015
03:14:30,600 --> 03:14:32,720
Speaker 5: I have a student in my class who is a

3016
03:14:32,720 --> 03:14:35,600
Speaker 5: little black boy with a disability, and I'm looking at

3017
03:14:35,680 --> 03:14:38,920
Speaker 5: him knowing that I am not able to give him

3018
03:14:38,920 --> 03:14:41,840
Speaker 5: what he needs. And he is like the statistic that

3019
03:14:41,879 --> 03:14:45,200
Speaker 5: school districts want to put on their website, Like we got,

3020
03:14:45,680 --> 03:14:49,480
Speaker 5: you know, our marginalized populations. We've helped them, we've fit

3021
03:14:49,520 --> 03:14:52,600
Speaker 5: and like, here is a student that is the statistic

3022
03:14:52,640 --> 03:14:56,560
Speaker 5: that you supposedly are fighting for, and he is absolutely

3023
03:14:56,600 --> 03:14:59,160
Speaker 5: left out to dry and I am trying to do

3024
03:14:59,200 --> 03:15:01,000
Speaker 5: what I can for him, and he comes to mind,

3025
03:15:01,080 --> 03:15:02,800
Speaker 5: I picture him as I'll be out there on that

3026
03:15:02,840 --> 03:15:04,960
Speaker 5: picket line, like I am out there for that kid

3027
03:15:05,560 --> 03:15:07,840
Speaker 5: as well as his thirty three other classmates. But just

3028
03:15:07,879 --> 03:15:12,200
Speaker 5: like quint essential picture of who I'm fighting for and

3029
03:15:12,240 --> 03:15:13,760
Speaker 5: who is getting left behind?

3030
03:15:15,520 --> 03:15:18,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, which which? Which? I don't know? Like there there's

3031
03:15:18,879 --> 03:15:21,440
Speaker 4: there's I think there's something really grim in the way.

3032
03:15:21,520 --> 03:15:23,400
Speaker 4: And this is this is a you know, this this

3033
03:15:23,440 --> 03:15:26,120
Speaker 4: goes back to what you were talking about with the

3034
03:15:26,160 --> 03:15:28,240
Speaker 4: way that they're just straight up lying about the average

3035
03:15:28,560 --> 03:15:32,360
Speaker 4: the average class size. Where it's it really seems like

3036
03:15:32,959 --> 03:15:35,560
Speaker 4: these things have you know, the the actual process of

3037
03:15:35,680 --> 03:15:39,480
Speaker 4: education is being degraded into just this this sort of

3038
03:15:39,520 --> 03:15:42,680
Speaker 4: metric chasing game. And you know, as long as you

3039
03:15:42,680 --> 03:15:45,440
Speaker 4: have metrics that look good, you know, like the district

3040
03:15:45,480 --> 03:15:47,600
Speaker 4: is like, wow, okay, it's fine that like our students

3041
03:15:47,640 --> 03:15:50,160
Speaker 4: aren't equality of education they need. It's fine that they're

3042
03:15:50,720 --> 03:15:54,640
Speaker 4: in these buildings that are literally falling apart. It's fine

3043
03:15:54,720 --> 03:15:56,520
Speaker 4: that you know kids aren't getting what they need, like

3044
03:15:56,560 --> 03:15:58,840
Speaker 4: as long as the metrics look good and right.

3045
03:15:58,959 --> 03:16:02,240
Speaker 5: That's something something that gets me when we talk about

3046
03:16:02,240 --> 03:16:06,880
Speaker 5: those metrics. Knowing our superintendent gets a bonus if academically

3047
03:16:07,000 --> 03:16:10,560
Speaker 5: marginalized populations like our black and brown students, if they

3048
03:16:10,720 --> 03:16:15,280
Speaker 5: increase their performance on standardized tests, he gets a bonus. Now,

3049
03:16:15,320 --> 03:16:17,640
Speaker 5: what I have a problem with is that those standardized

3050
03:16:17,640 --> 03:16:21,160
Speaker 5: tests that we take every spring, there are some students

3051
03:16:21,200 --> 03:16:25,360
Speaker 5: that are so impacted by the school system that they

3052
03:16:25,800 --> 03:16:28,959
Speaker 5: may have attendance issues, they may not be there consistently

3053
03:16:29,040 --> 03:16:32,440
Speaker 5: in the spring to take those tests. So something I'm

3054
03:16:32,440 --> 03:16:36,199
Speaker 5: picturing a couple of my students who were impacted by poverty,

3055
03:16:36,240 --> 03:16:40,160
Speaker 5: were kids of color and were significantly absent due to

3056
03:16:40,200 --> 03:16:43,600
Speaker 5: what the circumstances of their life. Those students were not

3057
03:16:43,680 --> 03:16:46,600
Speaker 5: able to take that test in the spring. That means

3058
03:16:46,640 --> 03:16:49,680
Speaker 5: those students, those black and brown students, that data wasn't

3059
03:16:49,720 --> 03:16:52,320
Speaker 5: in those metrics. So even the metrics that are being

3060
03:16:52,440 --> 03:16:54,800
Speaker 5: used to measure whether or not we are successfully supporting

3061
03:16:54,800 --> 03:16:58,600
Speaker 5: our students of color are inaccurate because our most impacted

3062
03:16:58,600 --> 03:17:03,119
Speaker 5: students aren't able to take that assessment. Like his data,

3063
03:17:03,280 --> 03:17:06,440
Speaker 5: our superintendent's data is going to look better When some

3064
03:17:06,480 --> 03:17:09,600
Speaker 5: of the students who might tank that data because they

3065
03:17:09,640 --> 03:17:12,200
Speaker 5: are unsupported by the school system aren't there to be

3066
03:17:12,240 --> 03:17:14,840
Speaker 5: in the data because they're unsupported by the school system.

3067
03:17:16,200 --> 03:17:17,640
Speaker 5: It falls apart.

3068
03:17:17,920 --> 03:17:19,520
Speaker 4: And this is one of these things where it's like,

3069
03:17:19,520 --> 03:17:22,959
Speaker 4: the only way to change this is do is do

3070
03:17:23,080 --> 03:17:26,039
Speaker 4: union actions because like the school district's not going to

3071
03:17:26,080 --> 03:17:28,640
Speaker 4: do it, like their metrics look fine, right and right,

3072
03:17:28,680 --> 03:17:29,920
Speaker 4: you know, the government is not going to do it

3073
03:17:29,959 --> 03:17:31,280
Speaker 4: because they're not going to they don't want to spend

3074
03:17:31,280 --> 03:17:33,600
Speaker 4: more money. So this is this is the only way

3075
03:17:33,640 --> 03:17:36,800
Speaker 4: to actually Yeah.

3076
03:17:36,120 --> 03:17:40,480
Speaker 5: And I think we finally, I think have made a point.

3077
03:17:40,560 --> 03:17:43,160
Speaker 5: We are I mean, our union actions already have been

3078
03:17:43,200 --> 03:17:46,440
Speaker 5: building up a visible presence. We have massive community support

3079
03:17:46,879 --> 03:17:48,959
Speaker 5: from our not only our parent communities, but the greater

3080
03:17:49,040 --> 03:17:52,199
Speaker 5: Portland area. Business is coming out and support people joining

3081
03:17:52,280 --> 03:17:54,840
Speaker 5: us at like we had a massive march this Saturday

3082
03:17:54,840 --> 03:17:58,320
Speaker 5: where we took over the Burnside Bridge. And as our

3083
03:17:58,400 --> 03:18:00,680
Speaker 5: union actions build, we know that we are out there,

3084
03:18:00,680 --> 03:18:03,879
Speaker 5: we are not alone, and that we are feeling the

3085
03:18:03,920 --> 03:18:06,480
Speaker 5: support from the community and we are becoming a more

3086
03:18:06,560 --> 03:18:11,000
Speaker 5: visible presence, and especially in Portland, we are a massive union.

3087
03:18:11,120 --> 03:18:13,760
Speaker 5: Other unions around the state are looking at us and

3088
03:18:13,840 --> 03:18:16,280
Speaker 5: watching how this goes. And we can tell that the

3089
03:18:16,320 --> 03:18:20,440
Speaker 5: district management is scared. They are starting to send out

3090
03:18:21,200 --> 03:18:24,920
Speaker 5: emails to families that are meant to intimidate and panic

3091
03:18:25,120 --> 03:18:29,320
Speaker 5: and cause chaos. And we're seeing these defensive moves that

3092
03:18:29,600 --> 03:18:31,320
Speaker 5: are a reaction.

3093
03:18:32,000 --> 03:18:33,400
Speaker 4: Do you know who else is a hack and a

3094
03:18:33,440 --> 03:18:35,760
Speaker 4: fraud who didn't figure out a way to do an

3095
03:18:35,800 --> 03:18:38,440
Speaker 4: ad pivot here? It's the products and services that support

3096
03:18:38,480 --> 03:18:39,199
Speaker 4: this podcast.

3097
03:18:39,680 --> 03:18:41,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, speaking of businesses that support us.

3098
03:18:43,879 --> 03:18:48,280
Speaker 4: And we're back. Yeah, so you know, okay, So that

3099
03:18:48,680 --> 03:18:51,080
Speaker 4: those are those are two other dynamics that I sort

3100
03:18:51,080 --> 03:18:54,640
Speaker 4: of I wanted to get into. I guess first I

3101
03:18:54,680 --> 03:18:57,040
Speaker 4: want to talk about what the what the community support

3102
03:18:57,040 --> 03:18:59,800
Speaker 4: has looked like, what forthmore the unionses look like. And

3103
03:19:00,000 --> 03:19:03,160
Speaker 4: you know, how you've been engaging with parents, because I mean,

3104
03:19:03,160 --> 03:19:05,080
Speaker 4: that's been a big thing. So I'm from Chicago and

3105
03:19:05,160 --> 03:19:07,360
Speaker 4: so we have like a I mean not that long,

3106
03:19:07,480 --> 03:19:10,440
Speaker 4: like for the last about decade, the Chicago Teachers Union's

3107
03:19:10,440 --> 03:19:13,080
Speaker 4: been on strike a bunch of times, and it's yeah,

3108
03:19:13,320 --> 03:19:16,039
Speaker 4: like it really and the support of that and the

3109
03:19:16,040 --> 03:19:19,000
Speaker 4: engagement of that really is one of the few things

3110
03:19:19,040 --> 03:19:21,400
Speaker 4: us in making Chicago a better place. So I wanted

3111
03:19:21,440 --> 03:19:23,240
Speaker 4: to ask what that's looked like in Portland, because this

3112
03:19:23,280 --> 03:19:27,879
Speaker 4: is basically the first time for y'all.

3113
03:19:26,480 --> 03:19:30,200
Speaker 5: Right, and I know historically in Oregon we felt the

3114
03:19:30,240 --> 03:19:33,480
Speaker 5: support from our community, such as the Red for Ed

3115
03:19:33,640 --> 03:19:36,040
Speaker 5: movement a few years ago when we were really pushing

3116
03:19:36,080 --> 03:19:40,400
Speaker 5: for statewide reform and change in education policy. And here

3117
03:19:40,440 --> 03:19:45,040
Speaker 5: in Portland ever since, the seeds of our uprising were

3118
03:19:45,040 --> 03:19:48,280
Speaker 5: being planted knowing that we are on a collision course

3119
03:19:48,320 --> 03:19:52,879
Speaker 5: towards a strike based on how poorly the district management

3120
03:19:52,920 --> 03:19:57,040
Speaker 5: is bargaining with us, and so we started to build

3121
03:19:57,200 --> 03:20:01,200
Speaker 5: in that communication and enlist this part of our parent

3122
03:20:01,240 --> 03:20:05,279
Speaker 5: communities pretty early on by having info sessions, by talking about,

3123
03:20:05,520 --> 03:20:08,640
Speaker 5: you know, the community's wants and desires for their students,

3124
03:20:09,879 --> 03:20:14,760
Speaker 5: connecting with our schools, ptas, connecting with local businesses, especially

3125
03:20:14,800 --> 03:20:17,800
Speaker 5: as in the last month or so that we felt, okay,

3126
03:20:17,840 --> 03:20:20,320
Speaker 5: this is happening, we are about to strike. We need

3127
03:20:20,360 --> 03:20:23,880
Speaker 5: to connect with our communities in our school areas and

3128
03:20:24,680 --> 03:20:26,600
Speaker 5: see who's out there and if they have our back.

3129
03:20:26,680 --> 03:20:31,560
Speaker 5: And it's been really profound in grassroots organizing between the

3130
03:20:31,600 --> 03:20:36,560
Speaker 5: parents and the ptas, in tandem with our unions and

3131
03:20:36,760 --> 03:20:40,160
Speaker 5: from businesses around our school areas. We attended an event

3132
03:20:40,240 --> 03:20:43,560
Speaker 5: called Strike School to prepare and one of our missions

3133
03:20:43,680 --> 03:20:48,039
Speaker 5: was to check in with businesses and neighbors in the

3134
03:20:48,080 --> 03:20:50,480
Speaker 5: areas of our schools where we plan to be picketing

3135
03:20:50,600 --> 03:20:52,400
Speaker 5: and seeing, you know, where can we go to use

3136
03:20:52,400 --> 03:20:54,720
Speaker 5: a bathroom, where can we go to use a parking lot,

3137
03:20:55,000 --> 03:20:58,359
Speaker 5: and just making those connections, some of which already existed.

3138
03:20:58,400 --> 03:21:01,680
Speaker 5: Even though Portland hasn't had to strike, We've been very

3139
03:21:01,680 --> 03:21:05,840
Speaker 5: connected to our communities because the educators live in these communities.

3140
03:21:05,920 --> 03:21:09,320
Speaker 5: This is my community. Unlike some of the big wigs

3141
03:21:09,360 --> 03:21:12,600
Speaker 5: in the big pink building of management, like they are

3142
03:21:12,600 --> 03:21:15,320
Speaker 5: coming in and out in a few years. We're from here,

3143
03:21:15,959 --> 03:21:18,760
Speaker 5: we are here to stay, we are here to make

3144
03:21:18,800 --> 03:21:21,240
Speaker 5: those connections. So it was very easy to call upon

3145
03:21:21,240 --> 03:21:23,640
Speaker 5: those connections because we are the community. You know, we

3146
03:21:23,680 --> 03:21:25,840
Speaker 5: have a lot of union members that are parents. We

3147
03:21:25,920 --> 03:21:28,040
Speaker 5: have a lot of union members that are married to

3148
03:21:28,520 --> 03:21:33,800
Speaker 5: business owners in the area. We've Yeah, it's been it's

3149
03:21:33,840 --> 03:21:37,520
Speaker 5: been obvious who lives here, who's fighting for these kids

3150
03:21:37,959 --> 03:21:39,520
Speaker 5: because this is our community.

3151
03:21:40,520 --> 03:21:43,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, I mean, Portland's been a place

3152
03:21:43,920 --> 03:21:46,520
Speaker 4: where I think kind of beneath the notice of a

3153
03:21:46,520 --> 03:21:48,840
Speaker 4: lot of the national press. It's been one of the

3154
03:21:48,879 --> 03:21:52,199
Speaker 4: places where the most union organizing is happening and where

3155
03:21:52,640 --> 03:21:56,960
Speaker 4: the most strikes have been happening. And yeah, I was wondering,

3156
03:21:57,080 --> 03:21:59,480
Speaker 4: I mean, to what extent have y' all been influenced by?

3157
03:21:59,720 --> 03:22:02,440
Speaker 4: I mean both the sort of the just profusion of

3158
03:22:02,440 --> 03:22:04,760
Speaker 4: like local strikes and then also the kind of the

3159
03:22:04,760 --> 03:22:06,160
Speaker 4: bigger national strikes.

3160
03:22:06,800 --> 03:22:09,400
Speaker 5: Something really beautiful about living in Portland is that there

3161
03:22:09,520 --> 03:22:15,560
Speaker 5: is quite a bit of cross union solidarity, and like

3162
03:22:15,600 --> 03:22:18,600
Speaker 5: in the educational realm, we have a coalition of all

3163
03:22:18,600 --> 03:22:21,760
Speaker 5: of our unions that come together the certified teachers like

3164
03:22:21,800 --> 03:22:25,280
Speaker 5: my union pat as well as SCIU, the union that

3165
03:22:25,360 --> 03:22:30,040
Speaker 5: represents our custodial staff, as well as pfsp our Para educators,

3166
03:22:30,040 --> 03:22:33,360
Speaker 5: our nutritional staff, the bus drivers union, like, all of

3167
03:22:33,400 --> 03:22:37,400
Speaker 5: those unions come together and support each other. And in fact,

3168
03:22:37,640 --> 03:22:40,800
Speaker 5: in the educational realm of Portland, multiple unions are on

3169
03:22:40,920 --> 03:22:45,240
Speaker 5: the verge of striking in that they are having unsuccessful

3170
03:22:45,240 --> 03:22:49,240
Speaker 5: bargaining attempts. But then also with like the ups workers,

3171
03:22:49,360 --> 03:22:54,879
Speaker 5: with Kaiser pharmacies and the medical field, like, there is

3172
03:22:54,959 --> 03:22:57,840
Speaker 5: labor action all around Portland, and there's definitely a built

3173
03:22:57,840 --> 03:23:01,800
Speaker 5: in solidarity network from you unionity to union. Our union

3174
03:23:01,920 --> 03:23:05,600
Speaker 5: siblings are with us. We have been with them throughout

3175
03:23:05,640 --> 03:23:08,560
Speaker 5: the years. I think we do a really good job

3176
03:23:08,600 --> 03:23:11,120
Speaker 5: as a major city of wrapping around each other's unions

3177
03:23:11,160 --> 03:23:15,959
Speaker 5: and supporting big actions. And you know, Portland, when we

3178
03:23:16,000 --> 03:23:19,520
Speaker 5: do get national press, it is for how rambunctious our

3179
03:23:19,600 --> 03:23:22,360
Speaker 5: little city can be. And this is some of that

3180
03:23:22,520 --> 03:23:25,400
Speaker 5: good trouble that that John Lewis would want us.

3181
03:23:25,360 --> 03:23:25,680
Speaker 8: To get in.

3182
03:23:26,840 --> 03:23:28,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean this is something that you can

3183
03:23:28,959 --> 03:23:30,880
Speaker 4: I mean, so I was in Portland for like three

3184
03:23:30,920 --> 03:23:34,400
Speaker 4: weeks pretty like recently, and I mean you would just

3185
03:23:34,640 --> 03:23:38,520
Speaker 4: run like I was. I was at a hospital for long,

3186
03:23:38,800 --> 03:23:40,560
Speaker 4: long story about that, but I was at a hospital

3187
03:23:40,600 --> 03:23:43,280
Speaker 4: and like the first person we talked to is like

3188
03:23:43,320 --> 03:23:46,039
Speaker 4: as a receptionist, was like the union rep from the

3189
03:23:46,120 --> 03:23:49,199
Speaker 4: receptionist union. And then like we're talking to the nurses,

3190
03:23:49,240 --> 03:23:50,920
Speaker 4: and the nurses are like, oh, yeah, we just won

3191
03:23:51,080 --> 03:23:52,879
Speaker 4: our we just won our thingout having to go on

3192
03:23:52,920 --> 03:23:55,240
Speaker 4: strike because management cave. It's it's a really sort of

3193
03:23:55,760 --> 03:23:59,080
Speaker 4: incredible place to be in terms of like just just

3194
03:23:59,560 --> 03:24:02,320
Speaker 4: the energy and just like the amount of stuff that's

3195
03:24:02,360 --> 03:24:05,199
Speaker 4: happening there. It's really it's really sort of incredible.

3196
03:24:05,520 --> 03:24:06,240
Speaker 5: Very active.

3197
03:24:07,280 --> 03:24:10,960
Speaker 4: I guess the other side of this is that this

3198
03:24:11,160 --> 03:24:14,400
Speaker 4: we've also seen a lot of sort of management retaliation

3199
03:24:14,520 --> 03:24:17,560
Speaker 4: and crackdown attempts. And yeah, I was wondering if you

3200
03:24:17,600 --> 03:24:20,640
Speaker 4: talk about what management's been doing, because.

3201
03:24:20,600 --> 03:24:25,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's really ramped up in the last week

3202
03:24:25,800 --> 03:24:28,120
Speaker 5: or so as it is clear that this we are

3203
03:24:28,160 --> 03:24:30,720
Speaker 5: on our way to strike, especially when we ninety nine

3204
03:24:30,760 --> 03:24:33,840
Speaker 5: percent of the membership voted yes to a strike authorization.

3205
03:24:34,240 --> 03:24:36,240
Speaker 5: That sent a pretty clear message and I think it

3206
03:24:36,360 --> 03:24:40,560
Speaker 5: made district management panic a little. And we've received numerous

3207
03:24:40,600 --> 03:24:45,320
Speaker 5: emails to the parent community. They have for example, they

3208
03:24:45,320 --> 03:24:49,880
Speaker 5: are training tomorrow Thursday, the day of our strike beginning,

3209
03:24:50,040 --> 03:24:54,160
Speaker 5: or when on Wednesday, the day that the strike begins,

3210
03:24:54,480 --> 03:24:58,800
Speaker 5: they are training our parent professionals and eas in how

3211
03:24:58,840 --> 03:25:03,200
Speaker 5: to deliver vert ual phonics instruction. One of their moves

3212
03:25:03,400 --> 03:25:06,920
Speaker 5: was to cause panic in the families by sending emails

3213
03:25:06,920 --> 03:25:09,640
Speaker 5: home that say, your student, based on their test scores,

3214
03:25:09,680 --> 03:25:12,160
Speaker 5: is a struggling reader. Here's the plan should there be

3215
03:25:12,200 --> 03:25:15,800
Speaker 5: a school closure, that we're going to provide virtual learning opportunities.

3216
03:25:16,080 --> 03:25:19,600
Speaker 5: So immediately you've got parents in a panic emailing their

3217
03:25:19,600 --> 03:25:22,920
Speaker 5: teacher like my students struggling. Why didn't I know? And

3218
03:25:22,959 --> 03:25:25,680
Speaker 5: in many cases that was inaccurate. A second grade teacher

3219
03:25:25,720 --> 03:25:28,360
Speaker 5: at my school, every parent in her class got that email,

3220
03:25:28,640 --> 03:25:31,200
Speaker 5: and sure she has some struggling readers, but it is

3221
03:25:31,240 --> 03:25:33,720
Speaker 5: not every student. Why did every student's family get that

3222
03:25:33,760 --> 03:25:38,320
Speaker 5: email to cause panic, to cause fear, to cause intimidation,

3223
03:25:39,000 --> 03:25:42,120
Speaker 5: And so they also send out a big email trying

3224
03:25:42,480 --> 03:25:45,240
Speaker 5: that the technology team was coming into the buildings to

3225
03:25:45,280 --> 03:25:47,879
Speaker 5: collect all the chromebooks. Our students are one to one

3226
03:25:47,879 --> 03:25:53,240
Speaker 5: with chromebooks. They're pretty integral to our curriculum delivery and

3227
03:25:53,280 --> 03:25:56,240
Speaker 5: our instruction. And they started pulling them out in the

3228
03:25:56,240 --> 03:25:58,360
Speaker 5: middle of the workday, in the middle of the teaching day,

3229
03:25:58,959 --> 03:26:01,840
Speaker 5: from some of our youngestdu students, which was a visible

3230
03:26:01,920 --> 03:26:04,120
Speaker 5: thing in front of students. They're coming to collect them.

3231
03:26:04,160 --> 03:26:07,760
Speaker 5: It was unplanned. We had no warning. That again seemed

3232
03:26:07,800 --> 03:26:10,520
Speaker 5: to be kind of a panic move. We are trying

3233
03:26:10,560 --> 03:26:14,720
Speaker 5: to sew fear and intimidation, and we're taking your chromebooks

3234
03:26:15,160 --> 03:26:17,680
Speaker 5: and we're putting kids back in COVID times.

3235
03:26:18,720 --> 03:26:21,240
Speaker 4: That's just a terrible also, just like a terrible thing

3236
03:26:21,320 --> 03:26:22,439
Speaker 4: to do to a bunch.

3237
03:26:22,160 --> 03:26:26,200
Speaker 1: Of kids r like what Yeah, they're just coming to.

3238
03:26:26,160 --> 03:26:28,560
Speaker 4: Their room, just taking their stuff in front of everyone,

3239
03:26:28,680 --> 03:26:29,680
Speaker 4: Like what right.

3240
03:26:30,200 --> 03:26:33,360
Speaker 5: Especially in those younger grades, with no warning and like, well,

3241
03:26:33,400 --> 03:26:35,520
Speaker 5: we were supposed to have our tech time on Friday,

3242
03:26:35,640 --> 03:26:38,560
Speaker 5: like we had our routine and oh this this guy's

3243
03:26:38,600 --> 03:26:41,400
Speaker 5: coming in and taking all the chromebooks. Sorry kids, Yeah,

3244
03:26:42,200 --> 03:26:43,480
Speaker 5: not really having a ready answer.

3245
03:26:44,320 --> 03:26:46,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like it's one of those things where it's

3246
03:26:46,200 --> 03:26:48,320
Speaker 4: like you can you can really tell, like who actually

3247
03:26:48,360 --> 03:26:56,240
Speaker 4: cares about the kids here, because it's just like yeah.

3248
03:26:54,160 --> 03:26:56,200
Speaker 5: And you know, management is trying to put out the

3249
03:26:56,240 --> 03:26:59,400
Speaker 5: message that teachers don't care about your kids. That's why

3250
03:26:59,440 --> 03:27:01,640
Speaker 5: they're willing to stop school and put your kids back

3251
03:27:01,680 --> 03:27:04,720
Speaker 5: at home again. It's bad, like the pandemic time, those

3252
03:27:04,920 --> 03:27:07,960
Speaker 5: those nasty teachers want your kids out of school. And

3253
03:27:08,440 --> 03:27:11,920
Speaker 5: you know, our point being that our students haven't been

3254
03:27:11,920 --> 03:27:15,360
Speaker 5: getting the learning that they deserve because of the current conditions. Yeah,

3255
03:27:15,360 --> 03:27:19,600
Speaker 5: that we've been under serving them already. We are walking

3256
03:27:19,640 --> 03:27:22,160
Speaker 5: out not because we don't care, but because we care

3257
03:27:22,280 --> 03:27:25,480
Speaker 5: so passionately that we aren't willing to stand for these

3258
03:27:25,840 --> 03:27:27,640
Speaker 5: subpar conditions any longer.

3259
03:27:28,400 --> 03:27:30,560
Speaker 4: And this is the thing I don't like I've seen

3260
03:27:30,600 --> 03:27:33,080
Speaker 4: a lot of teacher strikes in my city. I've seen

3261
03:27:33,120 --> 03:27:34,800
Speaker 4: a lot of teacher strikes. Naturally, I don't think I've

3262
03:27:34,879 --> 03:27:37,800
Speaker 4: ever seen and you know, and this isn't to say

3263
03:27:37,800 --> 03:27:39,600
Speaker 4: that I like, I don't think it would be justified

3264
03:27:39,600 --> 03:27:42,240
Speaker 4: for teachers to go on strike, like just because they're underpaid.

3265
03:27:42,640 --> 03:27:46,840
Speaker 4: Like everyone like has the right and possibly the obligation

3266
03:27:46,920 --> 03:27:49,480
Speaker 4: to go on strike for better conditions, but like that's

3267
03:27:49,800 --> 03:27:53,720
Speaker 4: not ever ever, I have never, at any point ever

3268
03:27:53,800 --> 03:27:56,800
Speaker 4: seen a teachers you to go on strike for reasons

3269
03:27:56,800 --> 03:28:01,520
Speaker 4: that words mostly about like mostly about improving things for

3270
03:28:01,600 --> 03:28:04,560
Speaker 4: their kids. And it's it's it's wold because you see

3271
03:28:04,600 --> 03:28:06,280
Speaker 4: this every like they do this in Chicago too. It's

3272
03:28:06,320 --> 03:28:08,240
Speaker 4: like every single time there's a strike, it's like, ah,

3273
03:28:08,280 --> 03:28:10,320
Speaker 4: the teachers like they hate they hate your kids. Is

3274
03:28:10,320 --> 03:28:12,840
Speaker 4: that they're like these like privilege overpaid people really like

3275
03:28:12,879 --> 03:28:16,320
Speaker 4: and it's like you guys, like you should you should

3276
03:28:16,320 --> 03:28:19,480
Speaker 4: like look at the admin salary sometime, like yes.

3277
03:28:20,640 --> 03:28:26,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, It's it's clear that there's a disconnect and

3278
03:28:26,480 --> 03:28:30,440
Speaker 5: as soon as there's a change in the weather, teachers

3279
03:28:30,480 --> 03:28:32,480
Speaker 5: go from being the hero to being the villain. And

3280
03:28:32,520 --> 03:28:35,760
Speaker 5: the fact that we are willing to go out on

3281
03:28:35,800 --> 03:28:37,720
Speaker 5: the streets and fight for our kids in the rain

3282
03:28:38,240 --> 03:28:42,000
Speaker 5: and the cold of Oregon winter. No, we're the villains.

3283
03:28:42,200 --> 03:28:47,520
Speaker 5: We are putting them all back in their COVID boxes like, yeah,

3284
03:28:47,600 --> 03:28:48,120
Speaker 5: that ain't it.

3285
03:28:49,720 --> 03:28:53,440
Speaker 4: Yeah that really sucks, Like I know, it's it's.

3286
03:28:53,280 --> 03:28:57,720
Speaker 5: Just, thankfully the negative kind of vitriol that we see

3287
03:28:58,440 --> 03:29:03,039
Speaker 5: mostly online where where the trolls live. It does seem

3288
03:29:03,080 --> 03:29:05,520
Speaker 5: to be like a loud minority. As with any form

3289
03:29:05,560 --> 03:29:08,879
Speaker 5: of trolling or counter you know, we do hear from

3290
03:29:08,920 --> 03:29:11,879
Speaker 5: community members that have more legitimate concerns, but they are

3291
03:29:12,240 --> 03:29:15,600
Speaker 5: I'm really supportive. I'm a little worried about this one aspect,

3292
03:29:15,720 --> 03:29:17,720
Speaker 5: but I'm with you guys, you know, and that's valid.

3293
03:29:17,760 --> 03:29:20,160
Speaker 5: I told my students as we were getting ready to

3294
03:29:20,280 --> 03:29:23,720
Speaker 5: go home for the long weekend quote unquote, you know

3295
03:29:23,760 --> 03:29:25,959
Speaker 5: that it is okay to feel a variety of emotions

3296
03:29:26,000 --> 03:29:28,560
Speaker 5: like I'm sad, I'm gonna miss you guys. I don't

3297
03:29:28,600 --> 03:29:30,320
Speaker 5: know when I'll get to see you again, and that

3298
03:29:30,959 --> 03:29:34,000
Speaker 5: makes me anxious and I'm excited to go fight for

3299
03:29:34,080 --> 03:29:37,480
Speaker 5: you guys to get us what we deserve. Like so

3300
03:29:37,640 --> 03:29:40,080
Speaker 5: even letting the children know this is totally normal and

3301
03:29:40,080 --> 03:29:42,680
Speaker 5: that's my same message to the adults, like it's totally

3302
03:29:42,680 --> 03:29:45,680
Speaker 5: okay if you've got some mixed emotions. Yeah, and we're

3303
03:29:45,680 --> 03:29:47,440
Speaker 5: going to be out there fighting for the kids. I

3304
03:29:47,480 --> 03:29:49,600
Speaker 5: hope you're not mad at me for very long, but

3305
03:29:49,600 --> 03:29:50,520
Speaker 5: I'm gonna do it anyway.

3306
03:29:51,240 --> 03:29:52,039
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3307
03:29:52,120 --> 03:29:54,000
Speaker 4: And that's another thing that's kind of like weird about

3308
03:29:54,000 --> 03:29:59,280
Speaker 4: this is like the way the negotiations have gone. It's

3309
03:29:59,320 --> 03:30:01,840
Speaker 4: like this has happened, like because a lot of strikes

3310
03:30:01,879 --> 03:30:04,680
Speaker 4: happen at the beginning of the school year, right, and

3311
03:30:04,720 --> 03:30:07,400
Speaker 4: so it pushes back the but this is but this

3312
03:30:07,480 --> 03:30:09,440
Speaker 4: is like okay, so like you've gotten in, you've met

3313
03:30:09,440 --> 03:30:12,039
Speaker 4: the kids, you're like teaching them to developing your relationship,

3314
03:30:12,160 --> 03:30:15,240
Speaker 4: and then management is just like, no, this is the

3315
03:30:15,280 --> 03:30:17,600
Speaker 4: moment we're going to force everyone.

3316
03:30:18,840 --> 03:30:19,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3317
03:30:19,360 --> 03:30:20,160
Speaker 4: That just sucks.

3318
03:30:20,320 --> 03:30:23,640
Speaker 5: Like yeah, and I don't think there's ever a great

3319
03:30:23,920 --> 03:30:26,560
Speaker 5: time to strike, but we definitely hope to be the

3320
03:30:26,640 --> 03:30:28,760
Speaker 5: least impactful. You know. We want to make sure that

3321
03:30:28,800 --> 03:30:31,320
Speaker 5: our families have what they need. We want to make

3322
03:30:31,320 --> 03:30:34,080
Speaker 5: sure that our staff have what they need. We didn't

3323
03:30:34,080 --> 03:30:35,520
Speaker 5: want to go too long. We don't want to be

3324
03:30:35,520 --> 03:30:38,240
Speaker 5: striking in the middle of winter or during a break

3325
03:30:38,280 --> 03:30:42,600
Speaker 5: when students are already out. Yeah, it's there's never a

3326
03:30:42,600 --> 03:30:45,160
Speaker 5: great time. And I feel I feel really confident that

3327
03:30:45,200 --> 03:30:48,120
Speaker 5: our bargaining unit has really worked to make this the

3328
03:30:48,320 --> 03:30:52,000
Speaker 5: least detrimental to our students as possible, Yeah, while still

3329
03:30:52,040 --> 03:30:56,480
Speaker 5: maintaining the validity of a strike, of a big collective action.

3330
03:30:57,680 --> 03:30:59,200
Speaker 4: And I mean, I think this is this is something

3331
03:30:59,320 --> 03:31:03,080
Speaker 4: that care workers struggle with a lot, right. It's like

3332
03:31:03,120 --> 03:31:06,360
Speaker 4: one of one of the reasons that it's it's hard

3333
03:31:06,360 --> 03:31:08,560
Speaker 4: for teachers to strike, that it's hard for healthcare workers

3334
03:31:08,560 --> 03:31:10,760
Speaker 4: to strike is because like, yeah, like you don't do

3335
03:31:10,840 --> 03:31:14,920
Speaker 4: this job unless you care about the people that you're

3336
03:31:15,160 --> 03:31:17,160
Speaker 4: like it's your job to care for, Like you don't

3337
03:31:17,200 --> 03:31:18,760
Speaker 4: you wouldn't know, Like no one will put up with

3338
03:31:18,760 --> 03:31:22,320
Speaker 4: these conditions if they didn't care, right, And you know,

3339
03:31:22,360 --> 03:31:25,200
Speaker 4: And that's I think there's this really grim way in

3340
03:31:25,240 --> 03:31:27,240
Speaker 4: which just becomes this sort of trap of like this

3341
03:31:27,320 --> 03:31:30,040
Speaker 4: is it becomes this and you see this like this

3342
03:31:30,080 --> 03:31:33,040
Speaker 4: is the thing I've been I've been talking to like

3343
03:31:33,080 --> 03:31:36,080
Speaker 4: people who like abortion workers and they talk about this too,

3344
03:31:36,120 --> 03:31:37,840
Speaker 4: where it's like there's this this kind of trap you

3345
03:31:37,879 --> 03:31:40,720
Speaker 4: get in because it's like you know that you are

3346
03:31:40,760 --> 03:31:43,800
Speaker 4: the only person providing the service that these people really need,

3347
03:31:44,160 --> 03:31:46,560
Speaker 4: and your bosses use that to underpay, you use it

3348
03:31:46,600 --> 03:31:51,720
Speaker 4: to you know, have just unacceptable conditions. And it sucks

3349
03:31:51,720 --> 03:31:56,560
Speaker 4: that it's like, you know, the the foundational elements of

3350
03:31:56,600 --> 03:32:00,160
Speaker 4: an actual, any kind of society that's actually good, that

3351
03:32:00,320 --> 03:32:02,280
Speaker 4: the fact that people care each and love like love

3352
03:32:02,320 --> 03:32:04,199
Speaker 4: each other and care for each other is being used

3353
03:32:04,240 --> 03:32:09,400
Speaker 4: as a weapon into really shitty conditions.

3354
03:32:09,600 --> 03:32:13,640
Speaker 5: It's weaponizing our passion and our care for our kids.

3355
03:32:13,840 --> 03:32:16,920
Speaker 5: And that's also something that tells you that it's serious.

3356
03:32:17,040 --> 03:32:22,080
Speaker 5: If if teachers who know that our students rely on us,

3357
03:32:22,120 --> 03:32:24,280
Speaker 5: we love our students so deeply, if we are at

3358
03:32:24,280 --> 03:32:27,480
Speaker 5: the point where we're finally striking it's been bad for

3359
03:32:27,520 --> 03:32:32,360
Speaker 5: a while. Yeah, yeah, and you were kind of mentioning

3360
03:32:32,360 --> 03:32:36,200
Speaker 5: this earlier. But teachers are so many things to our students,

3361
03:32:36,240 --> 03:32:39,200
Speaker 5: Like I am their teacher in some cases, am a

3362
03:32:39,240 --> 03:32:42,080
Speaker 5: care provider in some cases, I'm a therapist, in some cases,

3363
03:32:42,080 --> 03:32:45,400
Speaker 5: I'm their nutrition expert. Like they are coming to us

3364
03:32:45,440 --> 03:32:48,840
Speaker 5: for everything in some cases. And so to be willing

3365
03:32:48,959 --> 03:32:52,680
Speaker 5: to say I have to leave now to get us

3366
03:32:52,680 --> 03:32:57,199
Speaker 5: what we deserve, I'm going to make sure you're okay.

3367
03:32:57,280 --> 03:32:59,240
Speaker 5: It's so hard. It's so hard to say goodbye to

3368
03:32:59,320 --> 03:33:04,920
Speaker 5: these kids, and it's so necessary. Yeah, and that's that

3369
03:33:05,080 --> 03:33:07,960
Speaker 5: tells you that we that it is also that important

3370
03:33:08,160 --> 03:33:10,360
Speaker 5: that we have gotten to this point where we need to.

3371
03:33:12,120 --> 03:33:12,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3372
03:33:12,480 --> 03:33:14,400
Speaker 5: And the students do seem pretty and I mean I

3373
03:33:14,440 --> 03:33:16,040
Speaker 5: have the benefit of being at fifth grade, but the

3374
03:33:16,080 --> 03:33:18,880
Speaker 5: students do seem to understand pretty well. Some of them

3375
03:33:19,160 --> 03:33:23,760
Speaker 5: are incredibly activated little unionists, little union fighters as well.

3376
03:33:23,760 --> 03:33:27,120
Speaker 5: We had some of the fifth graders sent letters to

3377
03:33:27,560 --> 03:33:30,880
Speaker 5: the Oregonian and to the to the school board and

3378
03:33:30,959 --> 03:33:34,080
Speaker 5: to the superintendent. And they're very eloquent. They I mean,

3379
03:33:34,120 --> 03:33:37,360
Speaker 5: they've been living the conditions. They are the voice and

3380
03:33:37,520 --> 03:33:40,080
Speaker 5: it is they are trying to shout loudly, and you know,

3381
03:33:40,120 --> 03:33:43,760
Speaker 5: we're trying to amplify that. Like I am striking for them.

3382
03:33:44,680 --> 03:33:47,840
Speaker 5: I will benefit, but this is for them to have

3383
03:33:47,879 --> 03:33:48,640
Speaker 5: a better outcome.

3384
03:33:49,240 --> 03:33:52,199
Speaker 4: You know what, other services are provided by a bunch

3385
03:33:52,280 --> 03:33:54,000
Speaker 4: of workers who are not getting paid enough and are

3386
03:33:54,000 --> 03:33:57,640
Speaker 4: probably understaffed legally. I don't know if I'm allowed to

3387
03:33:57,640 --> 03:34:00,200
Speaker 4: say that, but they haven't done the crackdown on us. Yes,

3388
03:34:00,240 --> 03:34:01,640
Speaker 4: so I can say whatever I want.

3389
03:34:01,480 --> 03:34:01,800
Speaker 1: Damn it.

3390
03:34:02,680 --> 03:34:07,600
Speaker 4: It's the products and services that support this podcast and

3391
03:34:07,800 --> 03:34:11,240
Speaker 4: we're back. So there was ant. There's a thing I've

3392
03:34:11,240 --> 03:34:14,360
Speaker 4: been noticing. So I've been interviewing a lot of been

3393
03:34:14,400 --> 03:34:17,080
Speaker 4: infering a lot of service workers in the last god,

3394
03:34:17,120 --> 03:34:19,120
Speaker 4: like I guess like two years now, jeez, I've been

3395
03:34:19,160 --> 03:34:22,880
Speaker 4: doing this for a long time now. But one of

3396
03:34:22,920 --> 03:34:25,920
Speaker 4: the things that I've been noticing is a lot of

3397
03:34:26,080 --> 03:34:29,480
Speaker 4: people And this comes back to something that you were

3398
03:34:29,520 --> 03:34:31,960
Speaker 4: talking about, which is that a lot of a lot

3399
03:34:32,000 --> 03:34:33,880
Speaker 4: of service workers, I mean people who are just beached

3400
03:34:33,920 --> 03:34:36,440
Speaker 4: as people who are you know, people who are just

3401
03:34:36,480 --> 03:34:40,920
Speaker 4: doing effectively random service jobs are being pushed more and

3402
03:34:40,959 --> 03:34:43,960
Speaker 4: more into having to care for people because the rest

3403
03:34:43,959 --> 03:34:46,680
Speaker 4: of the sort of whatever social safety nets the US

3404
03:34:46,800 --> 03:34:49,959
Speaker 4: used to have have just completely imploded. And I think

3405
03:34:50,640 --> 03:34:52,200
Speaker 4: I want to get your opinion in this, but it

3406
03:34:52,240 --> 03:34:54,879
Speaker 4: looks to me like ground zero for this was the

3407
03:34:55,000 --> 03:34:58,720
Speaker 4: education system of all of the responsibility of you know

3408
03:34:58,959 --> 03:35:02,039
Speaker 4: this these massive in and poverty and it's extagnating wages

3409
03:35:02,080 --> 03:35:06,600
Speaker 4: and police violence and like our completely dysfunctional mental health

3410
03:35:06,600 --> 03:35:08,680
Speaker 4: care system that all of this. The first people this

3411
03:35:08,800 --> 03:35:10,760
Speaker 4: was pushed on was y'all.

3412
03:35:11,200 --> 03:35:14,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, now we're that first line of defense for the

3413
03:35:14,879 --> 03:35:18,880
Speaker 5: public good. And when you are gutting education, You are

3414
03:35:19,200 --> 03:35:22,840
Speaker 5: gutting the first safety net of the public good. And

3415
03:35:23,400 --> 03:35:25,440
Speaker 5: you know, the students will tell you that they are

3416
03:35:25,480 --> 03:35:29,560
Speaker 5: our future and we are the net that's supposed to

3417
03:35:29,640 --> 03:35:33,400
Speaker 5: catch them. And we've been underfunded and undersupported and under

3418
03:35:33,440 --> 03:35:39,240
Speaker 5: resourced and in many ways like privatized, where some of

3419
03:35:39,440 --> 03:35:42,040
Speaker 5: what will be the future populace are getting what they

3420
03:35:42,080 --> 03:35:47,760
Speaker 5: need and everyone else is left behind. And you can

3421
03:35:47,840 --> 03:35:51,879
Speaker 5: see it in retrospect. You can see how public education

3422
03:35:52,080 --> 03:35:57,600
Speaker 5: has been deteriorating or forcibly deteriorated by some of those

3423
03:35:57,640 --> 03:36:01,760
Speaker 5: interests that are trying to privatize or have privatization yep

3424
03:36:01,879 --> 03:36:06,520
Speaker 5: in their mission. And the ultimate outcome of that is

3425
03:36:06,560 --> 03:36:13,000
Speaker 5: a deteriorated United States. Like the populace is suffering because

3426
03:36:13,040 --> 03:36:15,920
Speaker 5: of it, Like I wonder why democracy is starting to

3427
03:36:15,920 --> 03:36:20,560
Speaker 5: fall apart when yeah, follow the dominoes backwards. Public education

3428
03:36:20,680 --> 03:36:25,560
Speaker 5: has been underfunded and undersourced for decades now. So our

3429
03:36:25,680 --> 03:36:30,280
Speaker 5: generation of workers are trying to repair the damage we

3430
03:36:30,360 --> 03:36:33,680
Speaker 5: witnessed and experienced and stop it from getting worse as

3431
03:36:33,720 --> 03:36:34,920
Speaker 5: it gets worse around us.

3432
03:36:35,920 --> 03:36:37,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, And this is one of those things where this

3433
03:36:37,480 --> 03:36:39,279
Speaker 4: is kind of like there's been this kind of unholy

3434
03:36:39,320 --> 03:36:42,160
Speaker 4: alliance between like that, I guess I call it like

3435
03:36:42,160 --> 03:36:46,039
Speaker 4: the sort of the charter school private school alliance between

3436
03:36:46,600 --> 03:36:50,039
Speaker 4: the sort of like Obama, Arnie Duncan, oh my god,

3437
03:36:50,600 --> 03:36:56,720
Speaker 4: Paul Vallas, like technically liberal like neoliberal reformers, who are

3438
03:36:57,080 --> 03:37:00,000
Speaker 4: you know, trying to destroy teachers' unions, trying to like

3439
03:37:00,240 --> 03:37:02,640
Speaker 4: trying to force everyone in the charter schools, trying to

3440
03:37:02,680 --> 03:37:06,040
Speaker 4: sort of like and just just just blasting holes in

3441
03:37:06,080 --> 03:37:08,520
Speaker 4: the education system of every single city they end up in.

3442
03:37:09,080 --> 03:37:11,160
Speaker 4: But it's just it's just interesting thing too, where like

3443
03:37:11,959 --> 03:37:14,200
Speaker 4: you have these people on the one hand, and they're

3444
03:37:14,240 --> 03:37:17,040
Speaker 4: the sort of like vaguely liberal wing of it, and

3445
03:37:17,040 --> 03:37:20,439
Speaker 4: then simultaneously you have this sort of like absolutely ferocious,

3446
03:37:20,480 --> 03:37:25,400
Speaker 4: like frothing right wing like evangelical shape. Yeah, it's like

3447
03:37:25,520 --> 03:37:29,880
Speaker 4: someone I saw a well I get they were going

3448
03:37:29,920 --> 03:37:31,720
Speaker 4: through their direction, but I saw I saw a funny

3449
03:37:32,240 --> 03:37:35,240
Speaker 4: defiction of that. They called it like fish hook theory,

3450
03:37:35,600 --> 03:37:37,120
Speaker 4: where like you have this stuff in the middle and

3451
03:37:37,120 --> 03:37:38,840
Speaker 4: then that the far right people sort of bend back

3452
03:37:38,879 --> 03:37:42,920
Speaker 4: around into the middle because they found this one thing

3453
03:37:42,959 --> 03:37:48,240
Speaker 4: they agree on, which is that they hate teachers, right, and.

3454
03:37:48,360 --> 03:37:50,480
Speaker 5: You know, the public enemy.

3455
03:37:51,040 --> 03:37:53,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, and I think it's it's interesting too that

3456
03:37:53,520 --> 03:37:57,000
Speaker 4: like schools are specifically the place that when when the

3457
03:37:57,080 --> 03:37:59,640
Speaker 4: right tried wanted to do their pushback against racial justice,

3458
03:37:59,680 --> 03:38:02,360
Speaker 4: it was like they went to schools. They've been doing

3459
03:38:02,360 --> 03:38:06,840
Speaker 4: this with like LGBTQ stuff too, is you know, this

3460
03:38:07,000 --> 03:38:11,080
Speaker 4: is like the rights whole game. I mean, since like

3461
03:38:11,520 --> 03:38:15,760
Speaker 4: desegregation has been trying to push people into private schools

3462
03:38:15,760 --> 03:38:18,960
Speaker 4: and privatizing the education system, and I don't know, it

3463
03:38:19,200 --> 03:38:23,520
Speaker 4: strikes me it's interesting that, you know, there's been for

3464
03:38:23,560 --> 03:38:27,400
Speaker 4: a really long time, and I think y'all, like y'all

3465
03:38:27,480 --> 03:38:30,280
Speaker 4: the like Chicago Teachers Unions has this has really been

3466
03:38:30,360 --> 03:38:33,680
Speaker 4: sort of the forefront of the fight against that of

3467
03:38:33,720 --> 03:38:35,959
Speaker 4: like items. It seems like we're finally in a period

3468
03:38:35,959 --> 03:38:37,760
Speaker 4: with these people who have run this country into the

3469
03:38:37,800 --> 03:38:40,520
Speaker 4: ground for the past like fifty years are finally starting

3470
03:38:40,560 --> 03:38:44,400
Speaker 4: to sort of like face the consequences and like have

3471
03:38:44,480 --> 03:38:47,880
Speaker 4: to deal with the people that they've been just destroying

3472
03:38:47,959 --> 03:38:48,720
Speaker 4: for so long.

3473
03:38:49,320 --> 03:38:54,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, we are seeing it from the inside as it happens,

3474
03:38:54,680 --> 03:38:59,480
Speaker 5: like I am experiencing as an elder millennial growing up

3475
03:38:59,600 --> 03:39:03,280
Speaker 5: in the nine in the public education system, knowing now

3476
03:39:03,360 --> 03:39:05,760
Speaker 5: as an adult what I was not being taught or

3477
03:39:05,760 --> 03:39:08,720
Speaker 5: what was being left out or censored just due to

3478
03:39:08,760 --> 03:39:11,560
Speaker 5: systemic patterns that now we teach in a different way

3479
03:39:11,600 --> 03:39:14,119
Speaker 5: to make sure that that doesn't continue. And then we're

3480
03:39:14,160 --> 03:39:17,520
Speaker 5: seeing legislation in places like Florida and Tennessee. They're like,

3481
03:39:17,520 --> 03:39:20,160
Speaker 5: stop doing that, stop fixing the problem.

3482
03:39:20,440 --> 03:39:23,040
Speaker 13: And you can't put it back in the box, like

3483
03:39:23,480 --> 03:39:27,959
Speaker 13: we see from the inside as things are are falling

3484
03:39:27,959 --> 03:39:30,520
Speaker 13: apart and people are being left out, and so we're

3485
03:39:30,640 --> 03:39:33,840
Speaker 13: inside public education screaming, knock it off.

3486
03:39:34,080 --> 03:39:36,920
Speaker 5: You did bad by us. We won't let you do

3487
03:39:36,959 --> 03:39:39,120
Speaker 5: bad by the next generation and the next generation.

3488
03:39:40,160 --> 03:39:42,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think like the other aspect of that,

3489
03:39:42,760 --> 03:39:46,320
Speaker 4: like is is the way that like school boards are

3490
03:39:46,360 --> 03:39:47,959
Speaker 4: being used to sort of like to take control of

3491
03:39:48,000 --> 03:39:50,280
Speaker 4: districts and like push all of this sort of just

3492
03:39:51,040 --> 03:39:55,879
Speaker 4: horrific like anti queer politics stuff. And I don't know,

3493
03:39:55,920 --> 03:39:57,680
Speaker 4: like that that's a personal one for me because like

3494
03:39:58,200 --> 03:40:03,600
Speaker 4: my school, like I mean, I guess we technically had stuff,

3495
03:40:03,920 --> 03:40:09,200
Speaker 4: but like I don't know, like the resources available to

3496
03:40:10,080 --> 03:40:12,120
Speaker 4: all the queer kids that like that was like me

3497
03:40:12,360 --> 03:40:14,880
Speaker 4: and like everyone I grew up with were like just terrible,

3498
03:40:15,480 --> 03:40:17,560
Speaker 4: And you know, I got to see the consequences of that.

3499
03:40:18,080 --> 03:40:19,680
Speaker 5: Right bare minimum if any.

3500
03:40:20,320 --> 03:40:22,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, and like you know, like in a in a

3501
03:40:22,440 --> 03:40:26,200
Speaker 4: really really like frothing right wing like really justconservative environment,

3502
03:40:26,280 --> 03:40:30,480
Speaker 4: and like, I don't know, it's it really seems like

3503
03:40:30,520 --> 03:40:32,720
Speaker 4: it's for a lot of people, it's gotten way better

3504
03:40:32,840 --> 03:40:34,840
Speaker 4: and all of these you know, like one of the

3505
03:40:34,879 --> 03:40:36,760
Speaker 4: assaults that we're seeing is like, who just want to

3506
03:40:36,800 --> 03:40:38,039
Speaker 4: bring this stuff back.

3507
03:40:38,600 --> 03:40:42,120
Speaker 5: Right to the quote unquote good old days before all

3508
03:40:42,160 --> 03:40:45,039
Speaker 5: of us queer folks were coming out, And yeah, like

3509
03:40:45,080 --> 03:40:47,800
Speaker 5: put everybody back in the closet, hide all of the

3510
03:40:47,879 --> 03:40:52,320
Speaker 5: racism that you've unraveled and exposed, put it all back

3511
03:40:52,360 --> 03:40:54,720
Speaker 5: in the box, put a bow back on the box.

3512
03:40:55,360 --> 03:40:59,400
Speaker 5: We want America to look the way it used to. Yeah,

3513
03:40:59,560 --> 03:41:03,880
Speaker 5: And that's that's a lie, and that benefited very specific populations.

3514
03:41:03,959 --> 03:41:07,760
Speaker 5: And we won't continue to play that game. And I

3515
03:41:07,800 --> 03:41:10,880
Speaker 5: think that's another reason, like you said, that you're seeing

3516
03:41:10,920 --> 03:41:14,200
Speaker 5: the gutting of public education, is that it's scary. Public

3517
03:41:14,320 --> 03:41:20,920
Speaker 5: education is about truth and teaching critical thinking, and that

3518
03:41:21,080 --> 03:41:24,600
Speaker 5: is not good for people in power when their power

3519
03:41:25,000 --> 03:41:29,920
Speaker 5: has been achieved on the backs of marginalized groups and

3520
03:41:29,920 --> 03:41:33,000
Speaker 5: by historically underserving people and pushing people into the dirt.

3521
03:41:33,920 --> 03:41:37,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like it turns out that when your entire

3522
03:41:37,879 --> 03:41:40,959
Speaker 4: state is based on doing a rolling genocide across the

3523
03:41:41,120 --> 03:41:44,000
Speaker 4: entire continent, you probably don't want to tell people that.

3524
03:41:44,000 --> 03:41:46,320
Speaker 4: That's like it's a bad idea.

3525
03:41:47,200 --> 03:41:50,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, cats out of the bag America.

3526
03:41:50,280 --> 03:41:54,400
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to ask you sort of what

3527
03:41:54,800 --> 03:42:00,760
Speaker 4: role has I guess, just twenty twenty in general, and

3528
03:42:00,840 --> 03:42:04,000
Speaker 4: I mean the pandemic too, but like I don't know,

3529
03:42:04,040 --> 03:42:08,080
Speaker 4: like I want to, I guess, like get a sense

3530
03:42:08,120 --> 03:42:10,680
Speaker 4: of what impact, like the uprising has had on all

3531
03:42:10,720 --> 03:42:13,680
Speaker 4: of this, because it is, like I do think it

3532
03:42:13,720 --> 03:42:16,720
Speaker 4: is notable that you know, it's like three years after

3533
03:42:16,760 --> 03:42:21,200
Speaker 4: the uprising, it's we have the first strike in right,

3534
03:42:21,560 --> 03:42:22,000
Speaker 4: so long.

3535
03:42:22,080 --> 03:42:27,480
Speaker 5: I think as a result of living through pandemic times,

3536
03:42:27,959 --> 03:42:32,160
Speaker 5: people really had an opportunity to reflect on what their

3537
03:42:32,200 --> 03:42:35,000
Speaker 5: lives were like, what they were living through that was unjust.

3538
03:42:35,120 --> 03:42:39,160
Speaker 5: I think a lot of inequities were revealed through having

3539
03:42:39,200 --> 03:42:44,000
Speaker 5: to shift our entire worlds, and things that had previously

3540
03:42:44,080 --> 03:42:48,360
Speaker 5: gone hidden or unnoticed or unexposed came to light and

3541
03:42:49,200 --> 03:42:53,360
Speaker 5: people said, no more, we have learned to do things

3542
03:42:53,360 --> 03:42:55,240
Speaker 5: a different way. We will not go back to the

3543
03:42:55,280 --> 03:42:58,200
Speaker 5: broken ways, and so it makes sense to me that

3544
03:42:59,000 --> 03:43:03,760
Speaker 5: we are at this boiling point in repairing and trying

3545
03:43:03,800 --> 03:43:10,640
Speaker 5: to rebuild and reform after a global change. And you

3546
03:43:10,680 --> 03:43:12,120
Speaker 5: see it in the kids too. I mean they say

3547
03:43:12,160 --> 03:43:15,039
Speaker 5: about my generation as a millennial, that we've lived through

3548
03:43:15,640 --> 03:43:20,040
Speaker 5: numerous large scale traumas, and the kids of today have

3549
03:43:20,320 --> 03:43:23,280
Speaker 5: now as well. Like the students I'm currently teaching were

3550
03:43:23,360 --> 03:43:28,120
Speaker 5: second graders when the pandemic hit, and they are forever changed.

3551
03:43:28,360 --> 03:43:32,240
Speaker 5: They were seeing, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement

3552
03:43:32,480 --> 03:43:35,199
Speaker 5: come alive on their television screens and in their cities.

3553
03:43:35,440 --> 03:43:41,560
Speaker 5: They grew up in civic action and global turmoil, and

3554
03:43:42,280 --> 03:43:46,920
Speaker 5: they are active. Even if I wasn't teaching current events

3555
03:43:46,920 --> 03:43:48,760
Speaker 5: in the way that I do, the students are bringing

3556
03:43:48,800 --> 03:43:51,279
Speaker 5: it to the room, like the conversations are happening.

3557
03:43:52,200 --> 03:43:55,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, which is it's such an interesting Like that generation

3558
03:43:55,760 --> 03:43:57,800
Speaker 4: I think is gonna be really interesting because I don't

3559
03:43:57,800 --> 03:44:01,240
Speaker 4: know I'm from this. I'm on exact exactly the borderline

3560
03:44:01,240 --> 03:44:03,240
Speaker 4: with everyone trying to figure out whether I'm a millennial

3561
03:44:03,320 --> 03:44:06,720
Speaker 4: or a zumer. But like my like my first memory

3562
03:44:06,800 --> 03:44:09,720
Speaker 4: is nine to eleven. Yeah, so like you know, it's

3563
03:44:09,959 --> 03:44:12,199
Speaker 4: I feel like I got a kind of millennial experience,

3564
03:44:12,240 --> 03:44:14,840
Speaker 4: which is I got nine to eleven, two thousand and eight,

3565
03:44:15,000 --> 03:44:17,000
Speaker 4: twenty six well two thousand and eight, then like the

3566
03:44:17,000 --> 03:44:19,440
Speaker 4: twenty thirteen uprisings I guess was a bit off, but

3567
03:44:19,480 --> 03:44:21,880
Speaker 4: I got like the two eleven thirteen up risings, and

3568
03:44:21,920 --> 03:44:25,520
Speaker 4: then like I get out of college or I get

3569
03:44:25,560 --> 03:44:27,760
Speaker 4: into college, and it's twenty sixteen.

3570
03:44:28,440 --> 03:44:31,720
Speaker 5: It's just like a mess.

3571
03:44:32,160 --> 03:44:33,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hot mess.

3572
03:44:34,280 --> 03:44:38,359
Speaker 4: It's this real Like I I I like I became

3573
03:44:38,520 --> 03:44:43,760
Speaker 4: conscious the moments that history returned to the world. Yeah,

3574
03:44:43,800 --> 03:44:45,640
Speaker 4: but I don't know, like I think it's an interesting

3575
03:44:45,720 --> 03:44:49,400
Speaker 4: thing with like with these kids who've grown up, who

3576
03:44:49,400 --> 03:44:51,360
Speaker 4: are you know, like yeah, like their first memories are

3577
03:44:51,360 --> 03:44:56,320
Speaker 4: going to be like the pandemic and like twenty twenty

3578
03:44:56,480 --> 03:45:01,520
Speaker 4: that I don't know, Like I I, I don't know.

3579
03:45:01,720 --> 03:45:03,680
Speaker 4: I'm interested in where these people are going to go.

3580
03:45:03,720 --> 03:45:06,360
Speaker 4: But also I think this is you know, this, this

3581
03:45:06,480 --> 03:45:10,800
Speaker 4: all of this ties back into just the importance of

3582
03:45:10,800 --> 03:45:13,480
Speaker 4: what you and all of your coworkers do, which is

3583
03:45:13,520 --> 03:45:17,120
Speaker 4: that you're the people who are you know, like it,

3584
03:45:18,000 --> 03:45:20,800
Speaker 4: you're the people who are producing, Like the kids who

3585
03:45:20,800 --> 03:45:23,400
Speaker 4: are going to who are I mean, hopefully they won't

3586
03:45:23,480 --> 03:45:25,600
Speaker 4: have to be fighting the same fights that we are

3587
03:45:25,680 --> 03:45:30,880
Speaker 4: right now. Statistically they probably will, but yeah, like and

3588
03:45:30,879 --> 03:45:33,160
Speaker 4: you're the people who are sort of mediating their understanding

3589
03:45:33,240 --> 03:45:35,960
Speaker 4: of like what is happening in this world around them

3590
03:45:36,000 --> 03:45:40,200
Speaker 4: that's you know, increasingly terrifying and complex.

3591
03:45:39,760 --> 03:45:44,000
Speaker 5: Right, trying not to give ten year olds an existential crisis,

3592
03:45:44,040 --> 03:45:47,800
Speaker 5: but yeah, coming into like they are at that developmental

3593
03:45:47,840 --> 03:45:51,480
Speaker 5: age where they are starting to have that existential crisis

3594
03:45:51,640 --> 03:45:57,279
Speaker 5: of Wow, our planet is out of luck, our educational

3595
03:45:57,280 --> 03:46:02,119
Speaker 5: system is rotten, our democracy is falling apart, like they

3596
03:46:02,160 --> 03:46:07,320
Speaker 5: are witnessing turmoil in every country like it is. You know,

3597
03:46:07,360 --> 03:46:11,039
Speaker 5: they say that the youth's humor is very nihilistic and dark,

3598
03:46:11,280 --> 03:46:14,680
Speaker 5: and it's just getting darker. Like, thankfully, they give me

3599
03:46:14,840 --> 03:46:18,360
Speaker 5: so much hope and light in you know, a world

3600
03:46:18,400 --> 03:46:20,280
Speaker 5: where sometimes I don't even know want to be a

3601
03:46:20,280 --> 03:46:23,119
Speaker 5: part of the future because the future looks grim. They

3602
03:46:23,560 --> 03:46:28,039
Speaker 5: are a light even in all of that darkness. And

3603
03:46:28,959 --> 03:46:32,000
Speaker 5: you know, I think they're really resilient. I wish they

3604
03:46:32,000 --> 03:46:35,560
Speaker 5: didn't have to be. I have my own big existential dread.

3605
03:46:35,760 --> 03:46:39,120
Speaker 5: And the kids are angry, the kids are are upset,

3606
03:46:39,200 --> 03:46:42,120
Speaker 5: but the kids are all right. Maybe, yeah, if we

3607
03:46:42,120 --> 03:46:44,760
Speaker 5: can contend to support them, and.

3608
03:46:44,720 --> 03:46:46,720
Speaker 4: I think this is something that goes for everyone is

3609
03:46:46,840 --> 03:46:51,360
Speaker 4: like it, So insofar as we have obligations to anyone

3610
03:46:51,400 --> 03:46:54,200
Speaker 4: on earth, like the thing, the thing that we owe

3611
03:46:54,280 --> 03:46:57,480
Speaker 4: these kids is to try to make sure they don't

3612
03:46:57,520 --> 03:46:59,039
Speaker 4: have to go through the same shit that we did,

3613
03:46:59,400 --> 03:47:01,920
Speaker 4: because yeah, that still sucked.

3614
03:47:03,040 --> 03:47:07,320
Speaker 5: Yeah. One of my teaching philosophies is the bee who

3615
03:47:07,360 --> 03:47:10,640
Speaker 5: you needed when you were younger? And I didn't even

3616
03:47:10,800 --> 03:47:12,880
Speaker 5: know some of the things I needed. But looking back,

3617
03:47:12,959 --> 03:47:15,480
Speaker 5: like now, as a queer adult living in a major

3618
03:47:15,520 --> 03:47:18,280
Speaker 5: city who grew up in a small town in Montana

3619
03:47:18,720 --> 03:47:23,800
Speaker 5: in the binding is I'm very yeah, very aware of

3620
03:47:23,920 --> 03:47:27,520
Speaker 5: some of the things that I should have had as

3621
03:47:27,560 --> 03:47:30,039
Speaker 5: a young person, and that I am glad to be

3622
03:47:30,120 --> 03:47:33,040
Speaker 5: there for my students in that way. Even the difference

3623
03:47:34,000 --> 03:47:36,480
Speaker 5: working with some people who've been teaching for longer, you

3624
03:47:36,520 --> 03:47:39,440
Speaker 5: see the difference in educational philosophy from run generation to

3625
03:47:39,480 --> 03:47:41,560
Speaker 5: the next and the bee who you needed when you

3626
03:47:41,560 --> 03:47:46,640
Speaker 5: were younger. I'm very open to being neuro affirming supporting

3627
03:47:46,640 --> 03:47:48,920
Speaker 5: our students that are on the spectrum or students with

3628
03:47:48,959 --> 03:47:52,120
Speaker 5: ADHD are students with anxiety disorders in a way that

3629
03:47:52,360 --> 03:47:55,080
Speaker 5: even the teachers of our generation when when I was

3630
03:47:55,120 --> 03:47:59,080
Speaker 5: a child, aren't necessarily on the stade like we're getting

3631
03:47:59,120 --> 03:48:02,480
Speaker 5: better making education less damaging to I think that's one

3632
03:48:02,480 --> 03:48:04,959
Speaker 5: of the reasons sometimes we lose public opinion is people

3633
03:48:04,959 --> 03:48:08,360
Speaker 5: have negative memories of school. School has been harmful, and

3634
03:48:08,360 --> 03:48:11,039
Speaker 5: we're like, no support us, like I promise it's different now.

3635
03:48:12,040 --> 03:48:14,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, but but I mean, but I think this is

3636
03:48:14,320 --> 03:48:16,879
Speaker 4: one of those things too, where like the teachers union

3637
03:48:17,040 --> 03:48:19,320
Speaker 4: in general, if you're looking at what is this, what

3638
03:48:19,440 --> 03:48:23,520
Speaker 4: is the single like group of people in the United

3639
03:48:23,560 --> 03:48:27,520
Speaker 4: States who actually wants to make school suck less? Like

3640
03:48:27,600 --> 03:48:31,080
Speaker 4: the most it's probably like slightly above that is students.

3641
03:48:31,080 --> 03:48:35,039
Speaker 4: But the thing is, like students are organized enough to like, right,

3642
03:48:35,959 --> 03:48:37,920
Speaker 4: and you know, and like I said as much really

3643
03:48:37,920 --> 03:48:39,520
Speaker 4: any know that this isn't to write off like the

3644
03:48:39,560 --> 03:48:42,600
Speaker 4: incredible amount of student activism that I mean, it has

3645
03:48:42,600 --> 03:48:45,720
Speaker 4: been happening forever, but they don't have the kind of

3646
03:48:45,840 --> 03:48:49,760
Speaker 4: power that like teachers unions too, and teachers unions.

3647
03:48:49,520 --> 03:48:50,760
Speaker 1: Are the social popvoice.

3648
03:48:51,600 --> 03:48:54,000
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, and also just the ability to like like

3649
03:48:54,080 --> 03:48:56,600
Speaker 4: the ability to withdraw your labor and suddenly actually have

3650
03:48:56,640 --> 03:49:00,880
Speaker 4: a massive effect on the entire sort of like state economy.

3651
03:49:01,320 --> 03:49:04,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, we are united for our students. Like we

3652
03:49:05,040 --> 03:49:08,640
Speaker 5: are called a teachers' union, but we are united for

3653
03:49:08,760 --> 03:49:13,600
Speaker 5: our students because they don't yet have the ability, or

3654
03:49:13,640 --> 03:49:17,600
Speaker 5: the access or the social capital to be heard in

3655
03:49:17,640 --> 03:49:18,480
Speaker 5: the way that they deserve.

3656
03:49:19,080 --> 03:49:20,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know. I think I think that's a

3657
03:49:20,840 --> 03:49:22,640
Speaker 4: that's a pretty good note to end on, unless you

3658
03:49:22,640 --> 03:49:23,800
Speaker 4: have anything else that you want to say.

3659
03:49:23,800 --> 03:49:27,240
Speaker 5: First, I'm satisfied. I mean, I'm not satisfied.

3660
03:49:27,280 --> 03:49:33,960
Speaker 4: I'm striking, but like, yeah, yeah, so how can people well, A,

3661
03:49:34,120 --> 03:49:36,240
Speaker 4: how can people in Portland support the strike? And then

3662
03:49:36,280 --> 03:49:38,240
Speaker 4: b how can people who are not in Portland who

3663
03:49:38,240 --> 03:49:39,480
Speaker 4: want to support the strike help?

3664
03:49:40,520 --> 03:49:44,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, Portlanders are able to help support the strike. We

3665
03:49:44,200 --> 03:49:49,560
Speaker 5: have a strike fund set up for purchasing and some

3666
03:49:49,640 --> 03:49:51,520
Speaker 5: of the things that we've needed on our strike lines,

3667
03:49:51,640 --> 03:49:55,960
Speaker 5: like megaphones, like ponchos. All of that strike fund is

3668
03:49:56,000 --> 03:49:58,520
Speaker 5: being used to help strike captains such as myself around

3669
03:49:58,520 --> 03:50:02,320
Speaker 5: the city organize our tickets and our actions. And so

3670
03:50:02,520 --> 03:50:04,640
Speaker 5: donating to that strike fund is one way to make

3671
03:50:04,680 --> 03:50:09,160
Speaker 5: sure that every teacher in Portland is getting some support.

3672
03:50:09,400 --> 03:50:11,640
Speaker 5: And then if you live in Portland, finding out the

3673
03:50:11,640 --> 03:50:15,000
Speaker 5: schools that are closest to you in your area, reaching

3674
03:50:15,000 --> 03:50:19,080
Speaker 5: out to those schools specifically, probably through social media, since

3675
03:50:19,120 --> 03:50:20,800
Speaker 5: we will not be in our buildings, Like using a

3676
03:50:20,800 --> 03:50:24,000
Speaker 5: school email wouldn't work, But reaching out to the strike

3677
03:50:24,040 --> 03:50:26,120
Speaker 5: in your area if you drive by and you see them,

3678
03:50:26,160 --> 03:50:28,640
Speaker 5: like giving them a honk in a horay and finding

3679
03:50:28,640 --> 03:50:32,760
Speaker 5: out where they need supplies to get directed to people

3680
03:50:32,800 --> 03:50:35,840
Speaker 5: outside of Portland. Same thing that strike fund is very visible,

3681
03:50:36,240 --> 03:50:40,040
Speaker 5: sharing on social media things on our behalf really making

3682
03:50:40,040 --> 03:50:43,160
Speaker 5: sure that your own legislatures know how important public education

3683
03:50:43,320 --> 03:50:46,520
Speaker 5: is to you. Hopefully things in your state or area

3684
03:50:46,560 --> 03:50:50,000
Speaker 5: are going positively for educators, but chances are they're not

3685
03:50:50,280 --> 03:50:53,680
Speaker 5: so I bet no matter where you live. As a listener,

3686
03:50:54,120 --> 03:50:57,080
Speaker 5: you public educators in your area could probably use your

3687
03:50:57,080 --> 03:51:01,320
Speaker 5: support talking to school boards, talking to legislators and making

3688
03:51:01,600 --> 03:51:04,400
Speaker 5: change in education, making sure that kids are getting what

3689
03:51:04,440 --> 03:51:07,400
Speaker 5: they need. That fight is guaranteed to be happening everywhere.

3690
03:51:08,240 --> 03:51:10,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we will. We will have links to well

3691
03:51:10,680 --> 03:51:13,400
Speaker 4: definitely a strike fund probably also will have links to

3692
03:51:13,440 --> 03:51:17,480
Speaker 4: social media stuff the description so yeah, go go do

3693
03:51:17,600 --> 03:51:21,840
Speaker 4: that and also yeah, yeah I do you want? I'm

3694
03:51:21,880 --> 03:51:24,920
Speaker 4: assuming you also people control up the picket lines m

3695
03:51:25,080 --> 03:51:26,440
Speaker 4: h yeah.

3696
03:51:26,320 --> 03:51:30,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, anyone in Portland driving in any of our neighborhoods,

3697
03:51:30,520 --> 03:51:32,840
Speaker 5: will find a school, will find a picket, and you

3698
03:51:32,880 --> 03:51:35,920
Speaker 5: are welcome to join us. I know I'm in the

3699
03:51:36,320 --> 03:51:39,480
Speaker 5: southwest region of Portland. Will be picketing in major areas

3700
03:51:39,640 --> 03:51:42,080
Speaker 5: as well as right outside our schools. So pretty much

3701
03:51:42,080 --> 03:51:44,720
Speaker 5: anywhere you see a sea of blue, give us a

3702
03:51:44,720 --> 03:51:46,880
Speaker 5: honk and hop out and join us for a little while,

3703
03:51:47,120 --> 03:51:49,960
Speaker 5: and we'll see you in some big visible spaces to

3704
03:51:50,160 --> 03:51:53,440
Speaker 5: be determined as we do some larger actions.

3705
03:51:53,760 --> 03:51:56,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, this is a This is the thing I

3706
03:51:56,720 --> 03:52:00,760
Speaker 4: will say from from experience is that like the okay,

3707
03:52:00,800 --> 03:52:03,720
Speaker 4: so the more people there are, the better picketing is.

3708
03:52:03,760 --> 03:52:05,400
Speaker 4: And where there's a bunch of people on a picket,

3709
03:52:05,400 --> 03:52:08,080
Speaker 4: it rules. So go go to a picket. It's a

3710
03:52:08,080 --> 03:52:11,160
Speaker 4: good time. You're you're you're joining us. Yeah, you're fighting,

3711
03:52:11,160 --> 03:52:13,000
Speaker 4: you're fighting for a good cause, you are fighting for

3712
03:52:13,080 --> 03:52:16,320
Speaker 4: your class and yeah.

3713
03:52:15,480 --> 03:52:19,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, hey, well, thank you so much for having me,

3714
03:52:19,040 --> 03:52:20,640
Speaker 5: and thank you to your listeners for giving us.

3715
03:52:20,560 --> 03:52:23,320
Speaker 4: An ear, and thank thank you for talking to me.

3716
03:52:24,120 --> 03:52:27,800
Speaker 4: It's been it's been great. And yeah, go go go listeners,

3717
03:52:27,840 --> 03:52:30,160
Speaker 4: all of you, go support the strike, make sure they win.

3718
03:52:30,760 --> 03:52:33,440
Speaker 4: And yeah, go out, go out into your communities and

3719
03:52:33,480 --> 03:52:33,960
Speaker 4: do the same.

3720
03:52:39,960 --> 03:52:43,120
Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3721
03:52:43,160 --> 03:52:45,080
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

3722
03:52:45,840 --> 03:52:48,320
Speaker 5: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3723
03:52:48,440 --> 03:52:51,120
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3724
03:52:51,120 --> 03:52:53,360
Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the

3725
03:52:53,400 --> 03:52:55,960
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

3726
03:52:55,880 --> 03:52:56,840
Speaker 5: Listen to podcasts.

3727
03:52:57,400 --> 03:52:59,480
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

3728
03:52:59,560 --> 03:53:02,600
Speaker 1: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.

3729
03:53:02,800 --> 03:53:03,640
Speaker 5: Thanks for listening.