1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know Fromhouse Stuff Works dot com. Hey, 2 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry and I'm Josh Clark. Uh, 4 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: and this is stuff you should Know. Anna turned this 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: coffee is too hot. You're fired, even though it don't 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: pay you. Yeah, that's pretty much an average monday for 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: an intern can be. Man, when I was researching and 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: when I was reading this, I was like, Okay, this 9 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: is interesting, you know, I like all the movie references. 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: That's great. Um. But then when I did some um 11 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,319 Speaker 1: external research too, I was like, whoa this is This 12 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,919 Speaker 1: is like a real social issue that we're facing, right, 13 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: you know, and it's um, it's like the dirty underbelly 14 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: for sure. And it sucks because it seems like there's 15 00:00:55,240 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: a significant portion of millennials who are just strapped with that, 16 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: who are saddled with this is just the way that 17 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: the career paths have kind of gone. And from doing research, 18 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: it's our fault. The gen xers are the first ones 19 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: who caved on this, and it just paved the way 20 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: for it to be the new normal. Did you ever 21 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: do an internship. No, me neither. And it wasn't like 22 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: a like when I was in college seventy five years ago. 23 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: It wasn't uh that big of a thing. Like, of 24 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: course it knew of internships, but like nobody I knew 25 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: did one. No, you were basically like a go getter 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: who was just looking to pad your resume a little bit. 27 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: Definitely extracurricular. Yeah, it was not super super common, at 28 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: least among the people I knew, and we were all, 29 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: you know, just normal, average, smart college students. It wasn't 30 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: like hung out with the heads by the dumpster. So 31 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,040 Speaker 1: I didn't know about internships. Well that's why I I 32 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: didn't know about internship. I'm glad to know that I 33 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: wasn't missing out though my mom's made me steer clearer. 34 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: Guys like you I saw, I know, and now we 35 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: work together. Fates are intertwined. Um, get this check. I 36 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,839 Speaker 1: saw the statistic between the nineteen eighties and the mid 37 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: two thousand's, the number of the percentage of college graduates 38 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: who've done an internship went from between win and win 39 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: and the mid two thousands. That's crazy. That underscores what 40 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: we were just saying, which is why I threw that 41 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: out there, you have data to back it up. Yeah, 42 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: and data, by the way, is plural. Okay, I just 43 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: want to make sure that that's set out. So like 44 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: if I stood up in front of my sympose um 45 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: and say I have a lot of datas for this, 46 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: I might get left off stage. What symposium are you 47 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: talking to? The data's symposium? I want to be there, 48 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: all right, I'll put you on the list. Okay, some pretzels. 49 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: So this article is just so cute because it opens 50 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: with a episode of Friends, which I don't even remember, 51 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: and I've seen all those, but apparently Chandler got an 52 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: internship and it led to wacky hi jinks. Imagine that, right, 53 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: which is also the plot of every other intern movie 54 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: or film ever. Yeah, there's one with Robert de Niro 55 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: and and Hathaway didn't see it neither. There's one with 56 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: Owen Wilson and Vince Vaughan. I saw just a little bit, 57 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: just enough of that to know I didn't want to 58 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: see it. That was shot here in Atlanta, though. Okay, 59 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: so you saw it being filmed and you're like you 60 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: and everybody on set heard you. Yeah it was I 61 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: think that it was at Google, like real Google, not 62 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: made up Google like. I saw a guy the other 63 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: day I meant to tell you this, and um, what 64 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: city were we just in? Not Lawrence, Kansas but Austin, Texas. 65 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: And by the way, thank you to those cities and 66 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: all the others on this most recent to yeah, which 67 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: we're winding up here in New York in Atlanta soon, 68 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: but big shout outs to Lawrence, Kansas especially, love that place. Right. 69 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: But anyway, I was in Austin and there was a 70 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: group of tech dudes, um in Austin, Yeah, uh, at 71 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: this restaurant that I was at, having drinks, and one 72 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: of them, the most obnoxious of of the lot, had 73 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: a Hoolie shirt on. And Hooly is the fake Google 74 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: type company from oh from what's it called Silicon Valley 75 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: the TV show. So he had a hoolie shirt and 76 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: he was the one leading with all the bad jokes 77 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: and I wanted to punch him in the face. I'll 78 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 1: Betty listens to the show too, So you've really made 79 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: your point here. Yeah, you know, if you were in 80 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 1: Austin then you had the Hooly shirt, you, sir, have 81 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: a punch coming. Yeah, some that guy's listening, he's like, well, 82 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: it's not me. My jokes rock Alright, So here's another 83 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: stat for you. Um, the two thousand sixteen survey from 84 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: the National Association of Colleges and Employers in a c E. 85 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: They said more than seventy And this is where it 86 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: gets a little like, this is actually good information because 87 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: the whole big question is our internships worth doing? Uh? 88 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: And they found that more than seventy paid internships did 89 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: lead to job offers. So that's pretty good. That's a 90 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: good number right there. I actually saw one from two 91 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: thousand thirteen and it was at six, so there's an 92 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: actual getting better. Yeah, it is getting better, which is 93 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: pretty interesting because that means that it's it's it's becoming 94 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: I guess, a legitimate career path then, rather than just 95 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: a fake career path. Right. But that is to point 96 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: out very clearly paid internships, paid unpaid internships, which will 97 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: get to which is basically to me, very un ethical, 98 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: illegal thing to do. Illegal. Depending on how you're doing it, 99 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: you can get away with it, but I think completely unethical. 100 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: You should always pay people to work, um, not exposure. Yeah, exactly. 101 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: If fewer than forty percent got job offers, from unpaid internships, 102 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: and that is not too far above the thirty six 103 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: point five percent of people who get a job offer 104 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: with no internship at all. Yes, so that two more 105 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: two thirteen saw that climb to because it was thirty 106 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: seven percent got a job offer versus thirty front who 107 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: hadn't intern So it does seem to be having an 108 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: impact at least between two thousand thirteen and two thousand 109 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: and sixteen, it's been changing. And with unpaid internships in particular, 110 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: I've seen that, um there is like a whole mentality 111 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: among millennials entering the workforce who are saying, you know what, 112 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: I would rather take an unpaid internship in the field 113 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: that I want to get into in the hopes of 114 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: getting a good job in that field than to start 115 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: down a different path in another field that I'm not 116 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: feeling so hot about and end up getting trapped in there. 117 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: And apparently they are um so dedicated to this idea 118 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: that people are starting to take like two three four 119 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: unpaid internships in their field in the hopes of making 120 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: this work. Part of the problem is is that means 121 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: that you're you're you're feeding the gig economy because you're 122 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: doing whatever side hustle you can, which a man, I 123 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: hate that term so much. Um, Yeah, to pay the 124 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: bills because it just makes it so cool. It's like, no, 125 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: you're being exploited. That's what it is. A side hustle. 126 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: It's exploitation. Okay, So you're having to carry out gigs 127 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: to to make ends meet, or you have some other, um, 128 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, a low paying job that is not so 129 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: demanding that you can't also do your internship at the 130 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: same time for parents who will just float you. Right, 131 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: that's a big one too. And so if this is 132 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: the new career path where you work unpaid internships to 133 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: three four of them before you finally get a paying 134 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: job and your chosen field, and it makes you, um, 135 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: makes you rely on say your parents or whatever. For 136 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: people who can't rely on their parents, that means that 137 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: that path to chosen career is closed to them. They 138 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: have to just start working immediately. And that that means 139 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: that it's automatically unfair. So exploitation is leading to unfairness 140 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: in in even more sinister ways as well. Yeah, and 141 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: that's something that you know what, because of my privilege, 142 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: I never thought about. But if you're out there saying, well, 143 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: what's a big deal if I want to take an 144 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: unpaid internship and my parents gonna float me to do that, 145 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: and I get the experience and I get a job, Like, 146 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: who am I hurting? And you're screwing up the economy 147 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: and your care getting an unfair system for people that 148 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: cannot afford to do so you're part of the problem. 149 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: And and it's not just you millennials. Calm down, Calm down. 150 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: This is this has always been the case with internships, 151 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: especially unpaid internships. But internships typically come from connections. So 152 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: the more connected you are or your parents are, meaning 153 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: the wealthier they are, UM, the the the higher chance 154 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 1: you have of getting a plumb internship and so advancing 155 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: along the way. So much so that I was reading 156 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: this really good article I would recommend to everybody. UM 157 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: it's called the Dream Hoarders, How America's Top perpetuates inequality, 158 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: And it was basically saying that you anytime you use 159 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: your UM outside channel connections, outside of formal networks, your 160 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: connections to get your kid or your nephew or whoever 161 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: UM a an internship, you are gaming this system and 162 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: making sure that inequality. It just perpetuates on and on 163 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,599 Speaker 1: and on. Yeah, cronyism, that's what it's called. Yeah, I 164 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: guess so. And nepotism, both both theisms. So let's look 165 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: a little bit about the history of the intern. Um. 166 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: You need not look any further than the medical community 167 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: as to where that comes from, that term, at least 168 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: because post w W one, Uh, there was a a 169 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: consensus that, like, hey, you went to medical school. That 170 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: was fine. You poked around some dead bodies, you maybe 171 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: cut a few open, and that's great, you know a lot, 172 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: But we don't fully feel great about just releasing you 173 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: into the world as a doctor just yet. Maybe you 174 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: should tag along and work as an apprentice of sorts, 175 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: as a physician in training in a hospital or a 176 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: physician's office or whatever, you know, wherever however you're gonna 177 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: do this, maybe you should do that. And we're gonna 178 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: call them interns. And that's an internship. Uh. They been 179 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: doing this for for centuries and centuries. There have been 180 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: apprentices where you would learn about a trade, uh, and 181 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: then later when when politics came around, um, you could 182 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: be an apprentice to a politician and learn about government 183 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: jobs and such. But the word intern really comes from medicine. 184 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: You could be a sorcerer's apprentice to that. So your 185 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: parents would float you, right, Mickey mass his parents were loaded. Um. 186 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: At some point, though, some companies started to say, Hey, 187 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: I got a great idea. We can actually kind of 188 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: formalize this informal thing of like, hey, can you get 189 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: um my cousin Biff's kid on this summer as an 190 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 1: intern at your company or at your law firm or whatever. Um, look, 191 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: we could formalize it by using our connections with other 192 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: prestigious universities. So prestigious company, meet prestigious university, and um, 193 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: we will. We want some of your students to come 194 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: work here for us for free, for free. We just 195 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: want to make sure that's clear. And in return, why 196 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: don't you give them like college credit for it? How 197 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: about that? And that's when the internship at the time 198 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: it was called a co op, but that's when it 199 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: really started to develop and spread and catch on. And 200 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: I think the earliest one was something like nineteen o 201 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: nine at um Northeastern University, which sounds made up so 202 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: like from a Jeremy Piven movie or something like that. 203 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: But it wasn't until the sixties that it really started 204 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: to catch on. Yeah, it sort of started and then 205 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: took a bit of a dive in the nineteen sixties, 206 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: seventies and obviously eighties and beyond from your stat But again, 207 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: as we said, like even even as we're saying like 208 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: caught on, like you were not and you were not 209 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: in the norm if you got an internship in college, 210 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: it was still unusual. But between seventy and eighty three, 211 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: the number of university's offering these co ops or internships 212 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: I went from two hundred to a thousand, so a 213 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: big increase to be sure. Uh, And some people still 214 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: say co op, although they're probably like in their seventies. 215 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: If they're saying that, all right, then trying to sign hip, um, well, 216 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: and there's a bit of a difference actually co ops. 217 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: I think usually you would just stop going to school 218 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 1: and take a full time job for a little bit, 219 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 1: like up to a year. It's almost like a work abroad, 220 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: but you don't leave. I guess you could leave, whereas 221 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: internships usually, like you said, it's like a summer thing 222 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: or I'm going to take a semester off and do 223 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: this kind of kind of deal. Right, is that right? 224 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: I believe so so, um, well, let's take a break, man, 225 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: and we'll come back and talk a little bit about 226 00:13:47,960 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: whether not internships are really necessary right after this. Yeah, 227 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 1: all right, So under the banner of this article, do 228 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: we need internships? Uh? They can be super useful. Here's 229 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: my take on it. If you if you're going for 230 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: a science based job in the STEM field, if you 231 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: want to be a chemist or a biotechnologist or a 232 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: neuroscientist or something, Uh, you want to work in AI 233 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: data analysis, you might benefit from an pretty well from 234 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: doing an internship. Uh. The same goes with like psychology, 235 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: political science, economics, a lot of those fields. It can 236 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: be a good way to get your foot in the 237 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: door and really learn as like a research in turn 238 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: or a laboratory intern Yeah, because I mean when you 239 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: when you enter profession, there's a lot of stuff that 240 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: are really peculiar to that. Profession has certain jargon. People 241 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: tend to work in certain types of groups, They use 242 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: certain types of software and you're making good connections they use, right, 243 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: they use certain types of um of like equipment, that 244 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: kind of stuff, and so like through a formal internship, 245 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: a real internship, you can um you can learn quite 246 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: a bit and a lot, so much so that, um, 247 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: even people who are generally against unpaid internships would say, 248 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: if that's the type of internship you're talking about, then 249 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: then yes, technically an unpaid internship is acceptable because what 250 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: you're getting is such um unrecreatable real world experience, like 251 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: real job training, that that that that's value, that's worth 252 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: at least as much as you would be paid for 253 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: for doing the whatever work they're having you do as well. Yeah, 254 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: and this is just me talking here, but my sense 255 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: and my experience of talking to people in reading about 256 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: this stuff is that internships with like and this is 257 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: not across the board, because we have had interns here 258 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: not for stuff you should know, but here and how 259 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: stuff works. Uh And by all accounts, they obviously were 260 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: paid and paid well, but I think in every case 261 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: like really enjoyed their time and learned a lot um. 262 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: But generally, I think media and entertainment companies are where 263 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: you're most likely to be uh exploit, exploited and abused 264 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: and get less real world training out of your internship. Yeah, 265 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: because the broad statement, but generally true, they're the ones 266 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: that are always getting sued by former interns, which is true. 267 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: We'll talk about it later and and I think one 268 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: of the reasons why is because some of these, especially 269 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: like the stem professions or architecture is a really good example. Um. 270 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: It has such a long history of internships that there's 271 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: like a formal process um that has been established over 272 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: the years. So it would be very obvious to any 273 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: intern very quickly if they were being exploited instead of 274 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: actually being trained in the field that they're looking to 275 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: go into. Ye, you're probably You're probably not gonna go 276 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: to a science laboratory and have them say, hey, I 277 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: need you to take my personal laundry to the cleaners 278 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: after work. Probably not, but you will probably get that 279 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: from a producer, right exactly. Or go, um, sit in 280 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: Selena Gomezs front row seats at this concert because she's 281 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: gonna be a little late. Seriously, I've read that one 282 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: of the articles. The opening band pretty pretty much they're like, yeah, 283 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 1: that's why you want to look at it. Look your 284 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: attitude to go You're gonna go places. That's funny. But yes, 285 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: with media companies it's they're kind of like, hey, we 286 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: want that too. So I think that they kind of 287 00:17:54,160 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: picked up the slack and started um, you know, twisting 288 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: what was initially a good thing into something exploitive. Correct, Well, 289 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: what why does Sanita Selena Selena Sanita go manz. What's 290 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: her name? Selena? You know, Selena Gomez. Don't like I 291 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: take it to someone famous? But why would she need 292 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: someone to hold her seat? I wonder that myself signed seat. 293 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: I took it. You would think so. But let's say 294 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: that there's some riff raff who are like, I'm going 295 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: to sit wherever I want. Selena doesn't want to deal 296 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,239 Speaker 1: with that. She didn't want to have to come and 297 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: be like, excuse me, this very nice, excuse me, you're 298 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: in my seat. So in turn, you just go sit there. Yeah, 299 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: because she could walk up and be like, intern you 300 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: you can go now? Yeah, you better not fart. I 301 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: would fart all over that seat she had. She had 302 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: the fartiest seat in the joint. It have like those cartoons, 303 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: like green like wisps of air coming off of that. 304 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: All right, So all getting aside, um, what you want 305 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: to do when you get that internship? Though, if you're 306 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: looking like some people are just looking for experience, some 307 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: people are looking for a job at that company, make 308 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: yourself invaluable. Like that's true with whatever, whether it's an 309 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: internship or whether it's your job. Yeah, sure, always make 310 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: yourself invaluable. But what we want is an intern is 311 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: for when you leave, for them to go, crap, Sam's gone, 312 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: Like where did Sam go? We had Sam doing all 313 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: this great stuff for us. Sam's the real intern, remember 314 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: I know, well I was, you know, reminding everybody else 315 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 1: I new. Yeah, well, I think people we might have 316 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: said this on the air. Sam who used to send 317 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: us our our podcast topic ideas that one summer summer 318 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: of Sam and and was the bat boy in one 319 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: episode of the Softball episode of our short lived TV show. Yeah, 320 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: I ended up writing a letter of recommendation for Sam 321 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: for college. He went there and ended up coming back 322 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: and interning with How Stuff Works this year, and he 323 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: was shoved by nary How Stuff Work staff member. No. 324 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: I think Sam had a good time time. He had 325 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: a great time, and I could see Sam coming to 326 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: work here full time. Yep. I mean that's not a 327 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: job offer Sam. I'm not the decider, but it's one 328 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: of those things like when Sam or any of our interns, 329 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: when they leave, you want people to say, well, what 330 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: do we do now, because that means that they have 331 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: a good chance at coming back and working. You know, 332 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 1: what does this have to do with Sleena Gomez? Though 333 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: I don't know because she's probably never an intern, But 334 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: you know who was an intern? Bill Gates? Was he 335 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: really where? I don't know? Oprah? Okay, oh you just 336 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: got a list, Tom Hanks, Brookshields, Steven Spielberg, Tom Ford, 337 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: Spike Lee, tom Ford hunh. Yeah. The fashion industry is 338 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: like notorious for exploiting its um. I could see that 339 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 1: so much so that um, there was a I can't 340 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: remember the name of the organization but out of Occupy 341 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: Wall Street and they were handing out um buttons at 342 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: Fashion Week that was saying like pay your interns. I 343 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: don't think it went over all that well, I said, VENTI, VENTI, Right. 344 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: I wonder how many times that's been screamed? A lot 345 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 1: in a fashion office A lot? Yeah, a fashion office. 346 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: Well yeah, fashion office, cow farms. That's my understanding. Um, 347 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: all right, Well, let's talk a little bit more about 348 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,959 Speaker 1: paid versus unpaid and get real with some stats. So 349 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: the n A c E that I was telling you 350 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: about earlier in two thousand and sixteen, they did a 351 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: Internship and co Op survey report and they said the 352 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: hourly wage average for interns undergrad um has been close 353 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: to the same for about seven years, at a pretty 354 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: good seventeen dollars and sixty nine cents an hour. That's 355 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: not bad for an average for a paid internship. I 356 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: was surprised by that. I have never made that much 357 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: an hour. I wonder what industry is driving that up. 358 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: I don't know, because that just doesn't seem that seems 359 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: high to me. Maybe us well, I mean, you were 360 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: never paid that because the cost of living was like 361 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: a third of what it is now and you were 362 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: at intern age. I think my first job, I was 363 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: a bus boy at JJ's Barbecue in Stone Mountain when 364 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: I was thirteen, and I think I think it was 365 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: like three thirty five or three seventy five an hour 366 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: was the minimum wage. Isn't that crazy? That is so low? 367 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: That's gross. You're like, I'm thirteen and I live with 368 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: my parents and I can't even live on this. That 369 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: was pretty great, Like what thirteen year old was making, 370 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: you know, sixty bucks a week. That's a lot for 371 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: a thirteen year old. Yeah, in nineteen eighty three, man, 372 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: you could have bought a car for sixty bucks in yeah, 373 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: at all the band Hala albums I could buy buying 374 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: doubles just so I can play frisbee with him. Uh. 375 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,239 Speaker 1: So that's paid internships. But as we have been saying, um, 376 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: you can get away still with not paying internships. Uh. 377 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: There is a six point um bullet point list from 378 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: the Fair Labored Uh Fair Labor Standards Act for private 379 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: sector for profit businesses. Yeah, because we should point out 380 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: that if you're an intern at a nonprofit they have 381 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: no problems with this. Legally, you're just a volunteer, right exactly. Okay, 382 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: that's a distinction. Yea good good pointing that out. But 383 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,479 Speaker 1: private sector for profit you can technically not paying it. 384 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: Or here here are the qualifications to meet for unpaid internship. 385 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: Number one is internship is similar to training that would 386 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: be given in an educational environment. It's boom right there, 387 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: that's all you need right there. Yeah, that's the one 388 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: that's not met I think most of the time. What's 389 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: another one? Another one is that um that the in 390 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: the experience has to be for the benefit of the 391 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: intern that's a big one. Oh, yeah, that is a 392 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: big one. These are all pretty big. Number three, The 393 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: intern does not displace regular employees. That is big, but 394 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: works under close supervision of existing staff. Right, not like, 395 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: go make these knockoff Gucci wallets. Well, here's how you 396 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: do it, and then we'll see you at the end 397 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: of the summer. Make five hundred of them. Yeah, you 398 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: have to run a cell machine. Well, t too bad 399 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: because you have to stitch this by hand. What's number four? Uh, 400 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 1: the employer that provides the training, this is weird. Doesn't 401 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: get any immediate advantage from the activities of the intern. 402 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: And this is my favorite part. And on occasion it's 403 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: operations may actually be impeded. Yeah, this is the one 404 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: that's probably never adhered to. That's the intern rule. Yeah, yeah, 405 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 1: no immediate advantage. In other words, it has to be 406 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: about you giving of yourself to teach the intern, right, 407 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: and you're actually putting yourself out by having an intern. 408 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: Apparently Gomer Pile is your intern or something like that, 409 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: because your operations are impeded. I don't even know if 410 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: I fully agree with that one. To be honest, I 411 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: love that one though. Uh. Number five, the intern is 412 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,239 Speaker 1: not necessarily entitled to a job at the end of 413 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: the internship easy enough, and finally the employer and the 414 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages. 415 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,239 Speaker 1: So it's just got to be clear. It's not like 416 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: after two weeks you're like, so, where's my paycheck? Right like, oh, 417 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: we didn't tell you. And this is the way that 418 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: things have been for years and years and years. But 419 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: then there is this something that happened in two thousand 420 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: and eleven and it changed everything, and we're going to 421 00:25:40,160 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: talk about that right after this message. M alright, Chuck. 422 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: So I was saying that in two thousand and eleven 423 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: things changed a little bit because for years and years, 424 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: everybody's just like whatever, everyone knows interns are exploited, free labor, 425 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: who cares if they want to do it whatever, um. 426 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: But then in two thousand and eleven, two interns stood 427 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: up and said no, no, and end to this. Eric 428 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: Glott and Alex Footman both worked for Fox Searchlight Pictures, 429 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: and I believe they both interned on the film Black Swan, 430 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: in particular in New York, and they said, you know what, 431 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: this is total b s. We're employees were being worked 432 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 1: like employees were This is not an internship. We're gonna 433 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: sue Fox for back wages, and they did. They filed 434 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: suit against them, and their whole case was based on 435 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: the idea that everything that they had gotten out of 436 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: it was the same thing that any entry level employee 437 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: would have gotten from it. There was no formal internship whatsoever. 438 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: They weren't taught anything. There wasn't like any kind of 439 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: vocational training, nothing like that. Um, they were just basically 440 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: exploited grunt work. And and like I said, they sued 441 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: Fox and they actually won. Yeah, I mean I read 442 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: an article called work is work Cohen wy Free internships 443 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: are immoral from the Atlantic, and the author said, basically, uh, 444 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: there's a good quote. We accept that they are not 445 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: salaried because they are temporary, um, because the work is 446 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: done by students and not insignificantly for the simple reason 447 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 1: that we choose to call them internships, a position we've 448 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: come to consider unpaid. Like by all accounts, these dudes 449 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: were p a s right exactly, and they thought so too. 450 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: And a judge actually in two thirteen said you know what, 451 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: I agree with you. Um. It was in the the 452 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: Second Circuit Court of Appeals. The judge said, Yep, these 453 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 1: guys are right. They were employees. You exploited them, you 454 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: need to pay that. Um. And he actually came up 455 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: with a different set of rules his own test, which 456 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: is basically like the exact same thing as the other test. Yeah. Um, 457 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: well we'll read through it quickly. Just because it is 458 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: a little different. Um, the intern and the employee understand, 459 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: there's no expectation of compensation or job guarantee. Provides similar 460 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: training to the educational environment. Uh, this one's a little 461 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: bit different. It's tied to the interns formal education program 462 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: through integrated coursework or academic credit. That is different. That 463 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: is significant to Uh. It is aligned with the academic calendar. 464 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: That's a little different. And the interns work compliments rather 465 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: than displaces paid employees. Yeah right. And but he also 466 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: took out something, um, which was that the employer does 467 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: not benefit from the internship, which I guess in some 468 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: ways at the very least clarifies that. It takes out 469 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: what the judge considered was an impossibility. Yeah. Um, and 470 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: made it harder for for interns to point to that 471 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: and say, no, this is they clearly benefited from it, 472 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: but they're going to anyway, I think was the judges point. 473 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: So with with Ultimately, Fox settled in two thousand and 474 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: sixteen with these two guys, and they have been awarded 475 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: four hundred No, I'm sorry, one of them was awarded 476 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: and the other one was awarded six thousand dollars in 477 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: back pay. And then like, I think night other um 478 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: interns from Fox Searchlight at the time who joined the 479 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: class action are getting four dollars in back pay each 480 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: for them. Yeah, it's the point. And they actually there 481 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: were huge ripples that went through the industry, all industries 482 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: that involved interns UM and just changed things quite a bit. Well, 483 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: I saw were one of them. I don't know if 484 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: it was this case, but one of them was appealing 485 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: the decision and I read that and I was just like, 486 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: are you serious. Yeah. The fact that Fox went for 487 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: five years arguing against this and they had to pay 488 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: out thirteen five plus another I don't know, five grand, 489 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: fifty grand, you're paying these kids to work and do 490 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: a good job. Unbelievable. Yeah, it was a little unbelievable. 491 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: But again, I think what they were fighting was, no, 492 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: we we really like having free interns. We don't want 493 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: any of the rules to change. That's ultimately what I 494 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: think they were fighting. And because of this lawsuit, the 495 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: rules did change, um not with this test that the 496 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: judge came up with. Most states still used the original 497 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: one that we went over, but a lot of companies 498 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: said they're legal counsel said, hey, uh, your your legal 499 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: exposure has changed now, so you need to reconsider your 500 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: internship programs. Yeah, and that was just one suit. There 501 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: was one in two thousand fourteen against Conde Nast where 502 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: they paid five point eight million dollars to settle a 503 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: class action suit. Hundred interns got together. And this is 504 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: like in the fashion world, like you were saying, they 505 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: worked for Vogue and Vanity Fair and other magazines like that, 506 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: and they refused to pay them like at least minimum wage, 507 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: and so they and well is the other one, Viacom, Yeah, 508 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: Viacom MTV b ET. They agreed to pay about seven 509 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: point two million dollars in two thousand thirteen. MGM paid 510 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: about two d and thirty two thousand and earlier this year. 511 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: So you know, again, like I was saying, it's like 512 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: media and entertainment companies are the ones that seemed to 513 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: take the most advantage. So like the all of these lawsuits, 514 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,719 Speaker 1: like just it was a huge ripple um and a 515 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: lot of places like Conde Nast said we're not doing 516 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: interns anymore. It's just it's too much legal exposure. Places 517 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: like some places like I think NBC News said we're 518 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: gonna pay our interns now um, and that just kind 519 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: of it's just like flipping a switch. You know, you 520 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: basically have to do one or another. Or there's actually 521 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: three things that you could do. You could set up 522 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: a formal internship program that like works with you know, universities, 523 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: you can start paying your unpaid interns, or you can 524 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: just stop your internship program. But the fact that like 525 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: these two interns like just changed the entire intern economy 526 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: with that initial lawsuit in two thousand and eleven, it's 527 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: it's surprising. Yeah, I mean they're just now there. If 528 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: they get do away with internships, they're just calling them 529 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: entry level jobs. Yeah, and so I guess the differences. 530 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: You can't do that as a student probably, right, what 531 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: do you mean, well, do that entry level job. You 532 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: would have to quit your college probably to do that 533 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: in most cases. Uh, yeah, I guess so. But again 534 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: there's like there's another way to do it, which is 535 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: to actually set up a formal internship program, which is 536 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: I think we have here, right, I would guess, so, 537 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: I actually don't know. I'm just I would guess just 538 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: because we're one of the top hundred most ethical companies 539 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: in the world. Yeah, is that a real ranking? Yeah, 540 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,719 Speaker 1: I can't remember whereas I think I saw it on 541 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: like the side of adulta jet maybe, Yeah, I saw 542 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: it somewhere nice or no, my coffee, I've seen it somewhere. 543 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: It's definitely a real thing and how stuff works deserves 544 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: if you ask me, Yeah, for sure. Uh So, if 545 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: you do want to take part in an internship because 546 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: it can lead to jobs, We're not pooping internships. We're 547 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: poopooing nonpaid ones. We're I'm poopooing the non ideal internships 548 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: where you are learning real stuff that is going to 549 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: apply to your real career and that you got based 550 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: on your merit rather than your parents connections. Yeah, that's 551 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: what we're celebrating here. Um So one way to get 552 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: these uh internships is to use your parents connection. Well, 553 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: it is true though, friends and family and networking, like 554 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: that's how you get jobs. It's it's just sort of 555 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: the reality of life, you know. Um, your university professor 556 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: might can help out contact the business themselves. I remember 557 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: Sam sent an email to us and I said great, 558 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,359 Speaker 1: And I sent Sam to Tamika here in the office 559 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: who handles that stuff, and said, I recommend Sam. And 560 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 1: he got the gig. So it was through a connection 561 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: in a way, but it was through a connection he 562 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: made by being a go getter and emailing us. Sure 563 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: what else you can linked in as a place you 564 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: can look? Um, there's something called insurn tips insurn tips. 565 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: That's that's a great website name internships dot com. Um 566 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: that they called the e Harmony of Internships Media Media Bistro. 567 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: Do you ever look on Media Bistro for jobs? No? 568 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 1: I never heard of that one. Oh it's all like 569 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: all things like writing and movies and um yeah yeah, 570 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: but like you can find lots of internships in there 571 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: and on our beloved zip recruiter Chuck Post internship jobs too. Yeah, 572 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: that's true. Go out and get one, get get get 573 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: a good one, get it in the right way. You 574 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 1: can learn what there's Also I also ran across some stuff. 575 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: Um there's like a whole community of unpaid interns intern Nation, um, 576 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: and they've kind of come up with like blogs to 577 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: just commiserate with one another. There's fashion intern problems is 578 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: one of them, Anonymous Production assistant blog, and intern anonymous. 579 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: Because there are three three good ones to start. I 580 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: think the last two are mostly associated with like um 581 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: production stuff out in Hollywood. Yeah, but in all seriousness, 582 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: if you're being exploited for real or taking advantage of 583 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: a real I know it's probably hard to speak up 584 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: because you think like you're in there, you don't want 585 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: to cause trouble. But be brave and blow that whistle. 586 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,879 Speaker 1: That's what I say. You're just ruined like five kids 587 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: lives or made them better. Yeah. Well, thanks for listening everybody. 588 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: This is a tough one right now. Right, Uh, let's see. 589 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: If you want to know more about internships, you can 590 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: type that word into the search bar at how stuff 591 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: first dot com. And since I said that, it's time 592 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: for listening to me, I'm gonna call the Secret Service. 593 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: It was a good one. Just listen to Secret Service 594 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:34,800 Speaker 1: guys want to fill you in on a missing piece. 595 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: You're joking a little bit about why there weren't younger, 596 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: more agile Secret Service agents out there protecting the president. 597 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,919 Speaker 1: But that's a really important there's a really important reason 598 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: for that, uh, that you would need to be older 599 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: and more experienced. In a former job, I used to 600 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: interact with the security team who had been the presidential 601 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: protective detail in the White House. They were the most 602 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: stoic and tight lipped people I've ever met. Uh I 603 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: can imagine, you know. But one of them did occasionally 604 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: tell the story about a time where there was a 605 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: credible threat when their team had to respond quickly. The 606 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: upshot of the story was that in order to do 607 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: their jobs, they had to take charge of the president, 608 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: which meant getting him in a car rerouting the motorcade 609 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 1: against his will. It's basically like, it doesn't matter what 610 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: the president saying. Supersede that the president was furious and 611 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,919 Speaker 1: tried to order him to change course, but it later 612 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,280 Speaker 1: came out that the threat had been real. The decisive 613 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: action had probably saved the president's life. I don't know 614 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: many seven year old who would have the cajones. This 615 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: is what Anonymous says. Did they use J yeah, oh, 616 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,320 Speaker 1: good going, anonymous instead of what an H yeah yeah 617 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: spelled correctly? The cajones to stand up to a direct 618 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,399 Speaker 1: order from a sitting president or who would have enough 619 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: experience to be able to convince the leader of the 620 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 1: free world to shut up and get in the car. 621 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: Don't forget the Presidential Protective Detail is responsible to save 622 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: the president's life, which sometimes means saving it from his 623 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 1: or her own bad judgment or ignorance. I love to 624 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: all anonymous. Way to go Anonymous, and also way to 625 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: go with that or her edition This person. This person 626 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 1: is right up our alley. If you want to get 627 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: in touch with this, like Anonymous did, you can join 628 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: us on Twitter at s y s K podcast or 629 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: Josh I'm Clark. Me and Chuck are both on Facebook 630 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: and at Facebook dot com, slash stuff you Should Know. 631 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: You can send us an email to Stuff Podcast, to 632 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com and as always, joined us 633 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: our at home on the whim Stuff you Should Know 634 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: dot com For more on this and thousands of other topics. 635 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:53,399 Speaker 1: Is that how Stuff Works dot com.