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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: How does a gorgeous woman turned wife and mother who

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Speaker 2: thence surpasses all the other women and men in her

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Speaker 2: field to rise up the ranks of the real estate

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Speaker 2: battle to win one award after the next after the next,

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Speaker 2: end up bludgeoned dead in her own family's mansion.

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Speaker 3: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at Foxination and

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Speaker 2: Series XEM one eleven. First of all, take and listen

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Speaker 2: to our friends at Crime Online and ABC seven.

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Speaker 4: Polease receive a nine to one one call about an

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Speaker 4: assault around six forty six in the evening. The location

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Speaker 4: is an upscale, gated townhouse in Cresskill, New Jersey, shared

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Speaker 4: by a husband and wife. When police arrive at the

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Speaker 4: eight hundred thousand dollars three bedroom townhome, they discover a

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Speaker 4: woman's bloody body. Officers determined she died of blunt force trauma.

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Speaker 5: The nine one one call came in around six forty

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Speaker 5: five yesterday evening. When police arrived at the home on

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Speaker 5: Stonegate Trail, they found the victim already deceased. Officials say

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Speaker 5: the woman died from an apparent blunt force trauma that

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Speaker 5: may have been beaten with a baseball bat.

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Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, just hearing the facts surrounding that, I'm imagining

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Speaker 2: this beautiful home on stone Gate Trail, in a gated community,

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Speaker 2: this nearly million dollar townhome. You know, straight out to

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Speaker 2: Robert Weiss joining me, VP of the New Jersey Division

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Speaker 2: for John Cotter Investigations, former sergeant New York Police. Robert,

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Speaker 2: when you hear something like million dollar townhouse, gated community,

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Speaker 2: stone Gate Trail, you don't really think of the beautiful

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Speaker 2: woman bludgeon dead in her own home.

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Speaker 6: No, you really don't. And you're definitely trying to see

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Speaker 6: how could that possibly happen with the security measures that

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Speaker 6: are normally around these type of properties in that affluent area.

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Speaker 3: Oh, let's talk about it. What do you mean security measures?

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Speaker 2: You mean like a little gate that you have to

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Speaker 2: drive through, and there's a guy sitting back there, and

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Speaker 2: there's the gate arm that goes up and lets you

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Speaker 2: in once you get permission, or maybe it has a

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Speaker 2: push dial a keypad.

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Speaker 3: That you have to know the super secret code to.

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Speaker 7: Get in, and then you get in, and then you

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Speaker 7: have to drive down long winding streets surrounded by trees

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Speaker 7: and shrubs and everything looks perfect.

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Speaker 2: You know those neighborhoods where everything's dark, but they have

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Speaker 2: the big homes lit up with lights up on the

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Speaker 2: house and it just is beautiful.

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Speaker 3: Is that what you're talking about?

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Speaker 6: That's what I'm talking about. The communities up there are

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Speaker 6: fully prepared for intruders and things like that, as far

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Speaker 6: as our cameras that are mounted throughout the properties, the

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Speaker 6: gateshall of you can't gain access to the property without

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Speaker 6: being invited on a list.

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Speaker 3: Okay, how does that work? Invited or on a list?

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Speaker 6: Well, a lot of the buildings will have a guard

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Speaker 6: station that is posted and the guard would have to

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Speaker 6: notify the resident that someone is requesting to enter the

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Speaker 6: area if their name is not on a list. A

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Speaker 6: lot of the places that the tenant can put your

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Speaker 6: name on the list so that you can have easy

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Speaker 6: access with gaining to the property.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really curious, guys.

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Speaker 2: I've got an all star panel and I'm going to

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Speaker 2: get to every single person because each one is intimately familiar.

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Speaker 3: With this murder case. But Robert Weiss is with me.

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Speaker 2: Why is a VP Jersey Division, John Cutter Investigations and

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Speaker 2: significantly former sergeant with Newark Police.

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Speaker 3: And you'll see why that's critical right now.

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Speaker 2: You know, one thing I've always been curious about Robert

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Speaker 2: Weiss is people that will put this big, beautiful gate.

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Speaker 3: Like it may be stone or it may be brick

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Speaker 3: or wrought.

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Speaker 2: Iron, but on either side of it you can just

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Speaker 2: walk around it.

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Speaker 3: So I'm always curious.

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Speaker 2: I guess having a gate like that would stop someone

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Speaker 2: having easy access in a vehicle to just go in

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Speaker 2: and load up and leave in the vehicle with all

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Speaker 2: the stuff.

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Speaker 3: You know, like in home alone.

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Speaker 2: If you've got that gate, you'd have to drive across

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Speaker 2: the front yard or maybe go over a ditch. But

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Speaker 2: if you were going into bludgeon this mom, this is

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Speaker 2: not just you know, an ordinary mom like you know

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Speaker 2: me and Jackie here. This is a woman that had

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Speaker 2: won all sorts of so to be international realty awards, just.

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Speaker 3: Really at the top of her game.

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Speaker 2: And if you looked at her, she looks like a

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Speaker 2: fashion model for sure, no question, very sleek looking like

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Speaker 2: I'm like, she's just about to walk down a New

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Speaker 2: York Fashion Week runway.

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Speaker 3: This woman is beautiful. So I'm always curious.

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Speaker 2: While the gates stop at the edge of the driveway,

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Speaker 2: can't you just walk around it.

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Speaker 6: Well, it depends on the property. A lot of them

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Speaker 6: that will still have the wrought iron fences that are

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Speaker 6: that doesn't make it look like it's Fort Knox or

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Speaker 6: something like that. They do have designer fences now that

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Speaker 6: are are secure, and it's pretty much to deter people.

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Speaker 6: I remember before the armed companies are really were big.

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Speaker 6: People would put a sign out in front that they

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Speaker 6: have a security at the house, even though they didn't

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Speaker 6: have it. It's like a determinate for the criminals. So

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Speaker 6: the fencing is a deterrent, and the cameras is always

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Speaker 6: always deterrement of the band. Guys want to go somewhere else.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guarantee you this sotha Bee's realtor in that

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Speaker 2: gatea community in Cresville, New Jersey. I guarantee tee you.

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Speaker 2: Robert Wise, they had that town home. It's a beautiful,

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Speaker 2: solid brick townhome, tall, gorgeous, surrounded by trees. You know,

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Speaker 2: they had it tricked out out the ying yang with security.

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Speaker 3: Guys.

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Speaker 2: How did this woman and she's gorgeous, she's accomplished, she's everything,

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Speaker 2: end up bludgeon dead in her own home in a

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Speaker 2: gated community where you have to get through security, surrounded

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Speaker 2: by fences. You know, she's got the whole place tricked out.

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Speaker 2: She and her husband are family, so how did this happen?

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Speaker 2: But you know what do we know about her? About her?

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Speaker 2: Because when you don't know where to go, you go

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Speaker 2: back to your victim. Take a listen to our friends

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Speaker 2: at crime Online.

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Speaker 8: John Senior and Irma Daniels were married in twenty eleven.

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Speaker 8: John Daniels Senior is the managing partner of the family

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Speaker 8: law firm Daniels and Daniels, a practice nearly a century old.

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Speaker 8: IRMA Daniels has become a success in real estate, celebrating

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Speaker 8: a number of professional milestones this year, not the least

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Speaker 8: of which was being named a Realtor Associate with Prominent

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Speaker 8: Properties of Softbey's Internation Reality in Englewood Cliffs. IRMA Daniels

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Speaker 8: also received the prestigious New Jersey realtor a Silver Circle

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Speaker 8: of Excellent Sales Award, an achievement IRMA Daniels had been

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Speaker 8: working forward for several years, Wow and More.

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Speaker 4: Irma Daniels is sharing her celebration of achievement in real

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Speaker 4: estate on social media. After the Silver Circle of Excellent

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Speaker 4: Sales award. Irma Daniels posted on Facebook, I finally did it.

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Speaker 4: After seven years in the real estate industry, I finally

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Speaker 4: received this distinguished award. Enjoying the fruits of hard work

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Speaker 4: in the USA. Irma Daniels also took time to reflect

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Speaker 4: on where she had recently been on a trip back

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Speaker 4: to her home country on social media. Coupled with the

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Speaker 4: beautiful scenic footage of her homeland, she wrote, going back

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Speaker 4: to my roots, My beautiful motherland with breathtaking Caucasian mountains,

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Speaker 4: ancient culture, heartbreaking history, and graceful and noble people proud

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Speaker 4: of being Circassian.

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Speaker 3: Joining me right now is a special guest.

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Speaker 2: It's Karen Listener, an investigative reporter with Berken County Patch

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Speaker 2: dot Com. Karen, thanks for being with us. So this

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Speaker 2: woman is so impressive to me. So she immigrates from Russia,

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Speaker 2: and I think that that is where I'm picking up

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Speaker 2: this sleek It's a European look super pretty.

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Speaker 3: She immigrates from Russia.

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Speaker 2: She meets the husband, they get married in twenty eleven.

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Speaker 2: This guy, I guess is quite the catch, right because

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Speaker 2: his family law firm is over one hundred years old.

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Speaker 3: Wow. And then they have the son, they've got the home.

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Speaker 2: They've got it all right, which makes her bludgeoning death,

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Speaker 2: which is a really brutal way to die.

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Speaker 1: Time stories with me, It's a Greece.

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Speaker 6: With me.

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Speaker 3: He's doctor Tim Gallagher. Guys and Karen, listen.

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Speaker 2: I want you to hear what he's going to say

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Speaker 2: before you give me your answer. Doctor Tim Gallagher is

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Speaker 2: the medical Examiner for the State of Florida. You can

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Speaker 2: find him at pathcaremed dot com. Lecturer University Florida Medical

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Speaker 2: School of Forensic Medicine, and founder of the International Forensic

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Speaker 2: Medicine Death Investigation Conference, Dr G. There's a limited ways,

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Speaker 2: a limited number of ways to die.

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Speaker 3: Bludgeoning.

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Speaker 2: A bludgeoning death is a particularly violent, gruesome death, and

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Speaker 2: it totally destroys, typically the victim's face and head. Now,

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Speaker 2: don't worry, We're bringing on a renowned psychiatrists to follow

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Speaker 2: up on what that means emotionally and mentally. But doctor Gallagher,

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Speaker 2: how often do you see a bludgeoning death as opposed

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Speaker 2: to a shooting death, a stabbing, somebody gets run over?

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Speaker 2: How often do you see a bludgeoning death on a lady?

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Speaker 9: Well, we don't really get to see that too often, Nancy,

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Speaker 9: It's a very rare opportunity. You know that one will

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Speaker 9: come to the medical examiner's office, and for a lot

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Speaker 9: of reasons, you know, a bludgeoning death, the a sale

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Speaker 9: and tastic to get very close to the victim. You know,

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Speaker 9: this is not someone you can shoot from across the

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Speaker 9: parking lot, you know, in an anonymous way. You know,

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Speaker 9: so the assailant has to know the victim, the victim

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Speaker 9: has to allow the assailant to get near them, and

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Speaker 9: the weapon used is generally something that's very heavy and

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Speaker 9: that does a lot of damage. You know, in the

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Speaker 9: first couple of strikes. You know, their intent is to

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Speaker 9: render the victim incapacitated or even kill them within the

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Speaker 9: first two or three blows. So we do find a

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Speaker 9: lot of skull fracture, We do find a lot of

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Speaker 9: brain damage, brain swelling, concussions and death, you know, because

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Speaker 9: of the blunt force trauma. But not very common and

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Speaker 9: for the reasons that we mentioned, it's generally not an

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Speaker 9: anonymous type of an assault.

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Speaker 2: So I'm taking it doctor Tim Gallagher, that you differentiate

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Speaker 2: between a bludgeoning death and a beating death.

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Speaker 9: Typically a beating a beating death would be an assault

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Speaker 9: with somebody's fist, as in a fistfight, but a bludgeoning

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Speaker 9: would require an instrument of some type, a metal pipe,

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Speaker 9: a rock, or a very hard object that's heavy, so

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Speaker 9: that would be more of a bludgeting as opposed to

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Speaker 9: a beating.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Angel Arnold joining me. We're now a psychiatrist out

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Speaker 2: of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her Angel Arnold

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Speaker 2: MD dot com. Doctor Angie, thanks for being with us.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure I agree with one thing Gallagher said

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Speaker 2: that you have to let the person get close to you,

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Speaker 2: because I've seen bludgeonings where the victim is cracked in

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Speaker 2: the head from behind.

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Speaker 3: But I guess generally speaking, he's right.

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Speaker 2: You know, we lawyers, Brad Micklin, we learned not to

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Speaker 2: argue with the medical examiner unless we really have to,

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Speaker 2: because you know, unless you've got a jd A and

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Speaker 2: an MD, they're gonna win, and that's really embarrassing in

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Speaker 2: front of a jury.

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Speaker 3: Would you agree with that, Brad Macklin.

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Speaker 10: I would agree, Harley Nancy.

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Speaker 6: The first I learned in.

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Speaker 10: Law school was a good learn not to argue.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just let the medical examiner say whatever they want

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Speaker 2: to and then when they leave the court room and

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Speaker 2: get in their car and drive away, then you can

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Speaker 2: argue against what they said in your closing statement. But

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Speaker 2: forget it on cross I mean, you basically have to

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Speaker 2: have the medical examiner lying on the courthouse steps naked

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Speaker 2: with a big fat doobie hanging out of their mouth

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Speaker 2: and a bottle of booze in their hand for a

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Speaker 2: jury not to love a doctor. They love doctors, and

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Speaker 2: it's really hard to cross examine a medical doctor, even

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Speaker 2: if you know what you're talking about. So I take

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Speaker 2: all that back, doctor Gallagher. You're absolutely right in every way.

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Speaker 6: You've described my Friday nights.

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Speaker 3: Yes, go ahead, doctor Angie.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about this bludgeting aspect because I'm

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Speaker 2: looking at her right now and she has this very

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Speaker 2: delicate nose and jawline, her lips are perfect, and it

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Speaker 2: all looks natural. I might add, she looks like the

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Speaker 2: height of sophistication. And I'm just thinking about the mental

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Speaker 2: leap you have to take to let's just say, a

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Speaker 2: bat to get a Louisville slugger and hit this lady

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Speaker 2: in the face and crackers skull wide open.

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Speaker 3: Who does that? What frame of mind would it take.

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Speaker 2: It's like Gallagher said, excuse me, doctor Gallagher. It's not

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Speaker 2: like you're taking a shot across a bar, or you're

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Speaker 2: just in a haze and you're angry and you run

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Speaker 2: somebody over. This is I mean, her face looks like

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Speaker 2: delicate porcelain.

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Speaker 11: So, Nancy, what you're describing as a very personal crime.

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Speaker 11: And I'm sure whoever did this did get very close

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Speaker 11: to her. And there's either there is either a hatred.

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Speaker 11: Whoever killed her hated her so it was personal, or

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Speaker 11: they could have had some sort of desire for her,

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Speaker 11: for example, a sexual desire that they could not that

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Speaker 11: they couldn't make happen because she's a married woman.

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Speaker 2: So rage, yes, you know another time I see that,

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Speaker 2: And again I'm just a JD. You're the psychiatrist and

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Speaker 2: MD is with multiple stabbing. Think about Jody Arius just enraged.

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Speaker 2: She had been having a marathon sex session with her

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Speaker 2: boyfriend Travis Adam Xander and at the end of the

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Speaker 2: day he still wentn't back out of his date taking

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Speaker 2: another lady to can kun. I believe it was, and

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Speaker 2: she was absolutely enraged stabbed him.

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Speaker 3: It's confusing.

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Speaker 2: Between twenty eight, twenty nine and thirty times because the

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Speaker 2: stab wounds began to overlap, and then caps them in

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Speaker 2: the head, shoots him in the head and leaves them

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Speaker 2: to decomposing a shower. That's rage, and you know the

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Speaker 2: frenzy of stabbing, And I'm getting that same feeling about bludgeoning.

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Speaker 2: Joining right now investigator reporter out of Burken County with

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Speaker 2: Patch dot Com, Karen Listener.

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Speaker 3: What more do we know about Irma Daniels.

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Speaker 12: We know that she was a successful woman. She was

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Speaker 12: an immigrant and you could see by she posted on

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Speaker 12: social media just hours before she was killed about how

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Speaker 12: proud she how she had taken a recent trip back

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Speaker 12: to her homeland, and the way she writes in her post,

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Speaker 12: she was a very intelligent woman. There's it conveyed a

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Speaker 12: lot of passion.

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Speaker 2: She studied finance and economics at Financial University under the

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Speaker 2: government of the Russian Federation. Right she had an MBA

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Speaker 2: in marketing strategies from the Moscow Business School. She of

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Speaker 2: course married the husband John Daniels, managing partner in the Gutenberg,

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Speaker 2: New Jersey based law firm Daniels and Daniels. I know that,

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Speaker 2: and she worked her way from being an immigrant to

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Speaker 2: this top spot in Sothebe's. And when I say Sotha Bee's,

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Speaker 2: it's all about luxury real estate, luxury homes all around

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Speaker 2: the world with a global reach. What more do we

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Speaker 2: know about the death itself?

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Speaker 3: To Brad M.

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Speaker 2: Micklin joining us, lead attorney Managing member with the Micklin

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Speaker 2: Law Group, Brad, thank.

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Speaker 3: You for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Of course, when you come upon a scene like this,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure the first thing cops are going to look

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Speaker 2: at is has there been a b and e, a

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Speaker 2: breaking and entering?

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Speaker 3: Is anything missing? Was she raped? Is she clothed?

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Speaker 2: What more do you believe the cops is going to

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Speaker 2: look for the moment they come into that luxury town home.

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Speaker 6: I think there's a.

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Speaker 10: Lot that you have to look for when you get

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Speaker 10: into this because, as you mentioned in the reports. I mentioned,

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Speaker 10: this was a largely affluent area. Burton County is largely

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Speaker 10: considered a more affluent county. So you're going to look

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Speaker 10: to see was the house in this array, where the

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Speaker 10: grounds of this array is, or anything that was relocated

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Speaker 10: or left at the scene. You want to see their security,

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Speaker 10: if it was tamper if there's anybody maybe even assisted,

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Speaker 10: whether part of the community or outside of the community.

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Speaker 10: So there's been so little release about this case that

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Speaker 10: there's just so many different directions of Yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Guess you'd want to look for surveillance cameras not just

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Speaker 2: in the home, but at the entry at that gatehouse. Guys,

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Speaker 2: not only did she seem perfect, her whole family saying perfect.

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Speaker 3: Take a listen to our friend Dave.

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Speaker 8: Mack As the son of a prominent New Jersey attorney,

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Speaker 8: John Daniels Junior graduation from Bergen Catholic High School in

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Speaker 8: twenty eleven mark the beginning of an academic journey. He

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Speaker 8: was a Seaton Hall undergrad in diplomacy and International la Relations.

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Speaker 8: He worked as a legal assistant at the family law

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Speaker 8: firm Daniels and Daniels for two years from twenty eighteen

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Speaker 8: to twenty twenty, and according to his LinkedIn profile, John

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Speaker 8: Daniels Junior received an NBA from the Boston College Carol

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Speaker 8: School of Management in May of twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 2: So not only she achieving, her husband achieving, but her

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Speaker 2: step son that she's been raising since he was a

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Speaker 2: little boy is also achieving.

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Speaker 3: Let's go back to the scene. What can we tell?

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Speaker 2: How was there an entry gained and who would have

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Speaker 2: the mental capacity to perform a murder like this.

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Speaker 3: Joining me right now.

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Speaker 2: Is specialist Kelsey McKay, former prosecutor, victims rights lawyer and

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Speaker 2: founder of McKay Training and Consulting and Respond Against Violence.

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Speaker 3: Kelsey, thank you for being with us. You know, when I.

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Speaker 2: Was talking to doctor Gallagher about the difference between beating

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Speaker 2: and bludgeoning. Typically, in for instance, domestic violence cases, we

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Speaker 2: will see beatings with the fists, but this case is

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Speaker 2: nothing like this. There was obviously a blunt object used, absolutely.

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Speaker 13: And that is, as doctor Gallagher describes, much less common

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Speaker 13: than things like a shooting with a firearm and some

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Speaker 13: type of other injury. And so one of the things

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Speaker 13: you mentioned, Nancy, to circle back to.

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Speaker 11: Is the role that who and how do we.

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Speaker 13: Identify not only the suspects, but the motives behind the

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Speaker 13: crime and so is it robbery. One important thing I

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Speaker 13: would always begin an investigation like this is to determine

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Speaker 13: the identity. And what we do know is a woman

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Speaker 13: is most likely to be killed by someone she knows,

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Speaker 13: and so it's important that although you can look for

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Speaker 13: signs that there might be missing items, no security data

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Speaker 13: is ever going to keep out the most dangerous people

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Speaker 13: in a woman's life, which is family members.

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Speaker 3: You're so right about that.

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Speaker 2: Lovers exes family members, It goes on and to doctor

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Speaker 2: Tim Gallagher joining us out of Florida.

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Speaker 3: When you look at a body.

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Speaker 2: For instance, this woman Irma Irma Daniels, how can you

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Speaker 2: tell she was beaten with a blunt object as opposed

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Speaker 2: to beaten with fists.

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Speaker 9: Well, typically it's not an easy thing to do. We

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Speaker 9: always look for a patterned impression on the body. If

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Speaker 9: the person is beaten with a blunt object that is elongated,

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Speaker 9: such as a metal pipe, a baseball bat, or something

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Speaker 9: of that nature, that leaves a very distinct impression on

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Speaker 9: the body, and something that we call tram tracking. It's

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Speaker 9: basically two lines, you know, and underneath those lines on

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Speaker 9: the skin would be where the damage is, the broken bones,

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Speaker 9: the bleeding, the ruptured organs, So that would indicate a

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Speaker 9: elongated object. When someone is beaten with fists, typically, you know,

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Speaker 9: we see the injuries are more rounded. Sometimes we see

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Speaker 9: the knuckle impressions, and on some cases we actually see

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Speaker 9: an impression of a ring or jewelry that the assailant

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Speaker 9: was wearing on their hands when they were striking the victim.

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Speaker 9: So it's very important that we paid careful attention to

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Speaker 9: each and every injury because each injury can give us

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Speaker 9: a clue as to what was used and how we

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Speaker 9: can help the investigation develop a object you know that

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Speaker 9: was used in the crime.

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Speaker 3: Take a listen to our friends at crime online.

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Speaker 4: An urgent manhunt is launched for the suspect who flood

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Speaker 4: the scene. Police say the victim, Irma Daniels, was bludgeoned

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Speaker 4: with a baseball bat. Neighbors tell police in the past

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Speaker 4: few days a man had been seen pacing in front

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Speaker 4: of the home.

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Speaker 2: So here we see that the murder weapon has been

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Speaker 2: identified as a baseball that I had to think back

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Speaker 2: on a case where a baseball bat was used in

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Speaker 2: a murder.

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Speaker 3: Listen to this from our friends at forty eight hours.

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Speaker 4: He's leading all over and I may have killed him.

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Speaker 10: What's he drinking? Yes, he had been drinking.

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Speaker 2: During the course of the day.

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Speaker 7: My partner's discussion after the amulets in the ast while

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Speaker 7: I get the information.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right, are you right with him now?

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Speaker 12: I am?

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Speaker 11: How does he how old is he?

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Speaker 14: Thirty nine?

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Speaker 6: All right?

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Speaker 10: Is he conscious at all?

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Speaker 12: No?

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Speaker 10: Is he breathing, Dan, Phil all right, tell me what happened.

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Speaker 10: Did you hit him in the head or.

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Speaker 12: Hit him in the head with what with a baseball bat?

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Speaker 6: With a baseball bat?

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00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am, you are hearing sound of a nine one

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Speaker 2: one call where a dad and his daughter has beaten

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Speaker 2: the victim dead. That victim the daughter's husband, Jason Corbett. Now,

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Speaker 2: isn't it true, doctor Gallagher, that when you look at

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Speaker 2: the victim's body, you can actually see as you were

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Speaker 2: talking about, you can see rings and watches that leave

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Speaker 2: an impression when someone is hit. You can see the

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Speaker 2: elongated mark of the weapon. And I'm thinking back to

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Speaker 2: an arson case I tried, and you may think, wow,

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Speaker 2: what does an arsen case have to do with this.

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Speaker 3: The victim didn't die burning of the fire.

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Speaker 2: She was beaten in the head and there was a

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Speaker 2: clear mark that I later showed to the jury of

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Speaker 2: an long elongated bruise and indentation.

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Speaker 3: On her scalp.

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Speaker 2: So that's what started her demise, not smoke inhalation. So

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Speaker 2: it's very distinct. Would you agree, doctor Gallagher?

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Speaker 6: It is true.

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Speaker 9: Typically you will find in the assault with a baseball

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Speaker 9: bat that you will find two lines that outline where

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00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 9: the impact was. And a baseball bat has a very

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Speaker 9: distinct pattern because it's spinner at the bottom and wider

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Speaker 9: at the top. So those two lines on the body

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Speaker 9: where the bat made the impact would be diverging as

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00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 9: it goes upward. So often, if the bat is a

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00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 9: wooden bat, it can also leave the impression of the wood.

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Speaker 9: It could leave the impression of the label that is

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Speaker 9: stamped on the bat, and it'll leave that impression on

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Speaker 9: the skin. And we have different types of light sources

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Speaker 9: that we can use that would highlight those areas and

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00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 9: call that object into question it or call that or

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00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 9: certified that that object was the one that was used.

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00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 9: You know, in the commission of the crime.

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00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 2: The family is devastated with the mom bludgeon Dad in

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00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 2: the home, a home they thought would never be penetrated.

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00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 2: There are no leads, so cops began looking, just as

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00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 2: Kelsey McKay pointed out, at those closest to her.

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00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 3: Listen to our friends at crime Online.

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00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 8: John Daniels Junior list his occupation as an investment banker

441
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 8: on his LinkedIn profile, but the last known job he

442
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 8: had was at his father's law firm as a legal

443
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 8: assistant that ended in twenty twenty. Before that, Junior worked

444
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 8: for a year as a marketing manager with benzel Bush Motorcar.

445
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 8: The Daily Mail reports Daniels Junior has apparently been unemployed

446
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 8: for the last three years and hasn't worked since leaving

447
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 8: his father's law firm in twenty twenty. The Daily Mail

448
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 8: reports that Daniels junior social media account show a lot

449
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 8: of sureless selfies and lavish vacations, but that the thirty

450
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 8: year old is single and unemployed.

451
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 2: Back to doctor Angela Arnold, doctor Angie, I'm looking right.

452
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 2: As his profile, he lists himself as an investment banker.

453
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 2: I mean investment bankers do big deals all over the world,

454
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 2: not post shirtless selfies and lavish vacations when they're unemployed

455
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 2: and living at home at age thirty.

456
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 11: Yeah, it sounds like he wishes he was an investment banker.

457
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 11: That's his dream wish, isn't it. So he's putting that

458
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 11: out there, Nancy, because to me, all of this says

459
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 11: that he is very insecure about himself. His father has

460
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 11: provided a provenance of excellent education for him, and this

461
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 11: guy has not been able to live up to what

462
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 11: his father pays.

463
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 3: The way for him.

464
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 11: So now he's a loser at thirty years old, living

465
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 11: at home in his parents' base.

466
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 2: Boy, you're not judging at all, are you, Doctor Angie.

467
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 3: You are the reason, Doctor Angie.

468
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 2: And my son the other day said Mom, I promise

469
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 2: you I will not be thirty one eleven in the basement.

470
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 3: Good was that Kelsey McKay jumping in?

471
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 13: Yeah, you know what she brings up is such a

472
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 13: great point because one of the dynamics for circumstances that

473
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 13: appears to have preceded this homicide, it sounds like within

474
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 13: days is her posting of her recent success, and so

475
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 13: in sharp contrast to the step son, she not only

476
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 13: was experiencing recent success, but also seems to be substantial success,

477
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 13: which is as we can see with his unemployment and

478
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 13: lack of financial earning power, it appears despite his appearance

479
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 13: that he gives off to the world. I think that

480
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 13: might be a significant circumstance to consider.

481
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 2: Of course, Brad and Macklin'll back me up on this.

482
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: I believe he will that being a deadbeat son living

483
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 2: at home, and you notice the last job he had

484
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 2: Brad Micklin was as a legal assistant in his father's

485
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 2: law firm back in twenty twenty three years ago.

486
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 3: Nepotism.

487
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 2: Nepotism, So the dad throws him a bone and gives

488
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: them a job at the law firm as an assistant.

489
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 2: But it's been over three years since he did that.

490
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, I hate to say this, so I

491
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 10: see it a lot with my practice over the last twenty.

492
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 3: I guess I'm all you're going to say with my son. Okay,

493
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 3: go ahead, no, no, no.

494
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 10: Twenty three years ago, when people had financial troubles, they

495
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 10: dealt with it, you know, they moved in with a friend,

496
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 10: or they got a small apartment.

497
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 6: Now, more and more.

498
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,719
Speaker 10: Often I see people that are moving home with their parents.

499
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 10: They're letting their parents pay for their legal fees and

500
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 10: their education, their child support, with a little regard for

501
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 10: the fact that it's usually their retirement that is being

502
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 10: squandered for these and sounds just like that's exactly what

503
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 10: he was doing, living off his father, got an education

504
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 10: from his father, worked for his father, and then he

505
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 10: posted selfies without a shirt on to promote himself in

506
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 10: an adverse negative waste.

507
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 2: Of course, a mooch does not a murderer make What

508
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: else do we know beside the sun. Other than he's unemployed,

509
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: living at home and lying about his image online.

510
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 3: Take a listen to Dave Mac.

511
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 8: John Daniels Junior had been acting strangely, according to a neighbor.

512
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 8: The New York Post quoted a neighbor that did not

513
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 8: want to be identified that seid of John Daniels Junior quote.

514
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 8: He was doing odds, sprinting from one driveway to the

515
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 8: next driveway, not sprinting for exercise. He wouldn't make eye contact.

516
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 8: One day, I saw him wandering around in front of

517
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 8: someone else's house pacing. It was like circling with an

518
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 8: angry and upset look on his face. And I thought,

519
00:29:49,920 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 8: somebody's going to call the police on this guy.

520
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.

521
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 2: Okay, you know what, I've got to go to Robert

522
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 2: Weiss on this, VP, New Jersey Division for John Cutter Investigations,

523
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: former sergeant for Newark Police. That's where this goes down.

524
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: Robert again, thank you for being with us. You know,

525
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 2: if it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck,

526
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 2: it looks like a duck.

527
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 3: It's a duck.

528
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: Now I said it in a different way, and I

529
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 2: would tell Jerry's listen, look at all the possibilities, and

530
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: I guarantee you the nut did it. So why is

531
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 2: this guy sprinting back and forth from mailbox to mailbox,

532
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: refusing to make eye contact just before the mom is killed.

533
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 6: Well, it appears to me that there's something going on,

534
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 6: whether he's intoxicated of some sort, but he's clearly off

535
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 6: off the reservoir with the way that he's acting. Uh,

536
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 6: he's creating uh, a kind of crazy environment with the neighbors.

537
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 6: And it doesn't he doesn't seem like that he cures

538
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 6: that he's being watched by his uh, his actions. And

539
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 6: when I first took a look at this, when listening

540
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 6: with the doctors were saying, with these type of crimes,

541
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 6: there's definitely a lot of emotion evolved behind it. There's

542
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 6: some really deep emotions that evolved behind it to be

543
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 6: able to carry out an act as atrocious as that.

544
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 6: And in many cases there when they have a situation

545
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,479
Speaker 6: like that with the crime, there's a lot of blood

546
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 6: splatter and things like that that will get on the

547
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 6: perpetrator and these are things that affect him later on.

548
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 6: But he's clearly seemed to be showing some sign some

549
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 6: type of either drug abuse or mental illness or such.

550
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 2: But of course we don't know what he's wearing, because

551
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: as soon as his mom is found, he goes on

552
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 2: the run. That's right, this guy, thirty year old John

553
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 2: Daniels Junior, as soon as Irma is found dead in

554
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: the home, bludgeon dead with a baseball bat. And they

555
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 2: came out with that pretty quickly, that there was a

556
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 2: baseball bat, which tells me that the weapon was found

557
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 2: at the scene. How would they know that immediately after

558
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: finding her body and he's the only one missing to

559
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 2: Brad M Micklin, high profile lawyer joining us out of

560
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: this jurisdiction in New Jersey, Brad, in many jurisdictions, judges

561
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: no longer instruct your rs on flight as evidence of guilt. However,

562
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: the prosecutor can still argue it, and I would argue

563
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: it in this case till I was blue in the face,

564
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: your mother is dead in the floor, and you go

565
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 2: on the run. I mean, come on, Brad, if you

566
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: see a state patrol officer pull up behind you on

567
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: the interstate, you might tap your brakes to slow down,

568
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 2: But do you take off at one hundred and ten mph? No?

569
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 3: Because you don't have anything to hide, So why is

570
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 3: he on the run?

571
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 6: I agree to answer.

572
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 10: I mean, I personally believe it's a sign of guilt

573
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 10: and that an innocent person acted sphere would not run,

574
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 10: would not hide. But as you indicated, Manager Assiction s Field,

575
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 10: it is just too prejudicial to allow people to draw

576
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 10: that conclusion. So we're told not to. But I think

577
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 10: it's human nature to believe that it is the case,

578
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 10: and I don't think I would do it. Tremendous Sphere

579
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 10: or built.

580
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: Absolutely, guys, take a listen to our friends at crime Online.

581
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 4: After a manhunt, John Daniels Junior is taken into custody.

582
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 15: Sources tell CBS too that the New Jersey man has

583
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 15: been arrested in the beating death of a family member.

584
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 15: Police see thebody a forty eight year old Irma Daniels

585
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 15: is found last night at a home on Stone Game

586
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 15: Trail in crescoll i'th already said. John Daniels Junior is

587
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 15: now being charged with the murder. He's accused of hitting

588
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 15: the victim in the head with a baseball bat and

589
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 15: running from the home. So far, no word on a motive.

590
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 4: In his first court appearance, Daniels reportedly broke down and

591
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 4: stuttered at times while answering the judge. Reporters in the

592
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 4: courtroom say Daniels only spoke yes your honor or no,

593
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 4: your honor and answer to the judges questions. Daniels faces

594
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 4: a list of charges, including first degree murder, unlawful possession

595
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 4: of a weapon in Lyne.

596
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 2: To investigators, if in fact, this thirty year old son

597
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 2: is guilty bludgeting his stepmom arma dad, he's not by

598
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 2: far the first adult child to wreak havoc and murder

599
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,760
Speaker 2: their parents. Take a listen to our friend's at ABC six.

600
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 16: It was a couple's son who grew concerned after he

601
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 16: hadn't spoken to his parents in a week. He went

602
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 16: to their home, saw a body inside, confronted sister, and

603
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 16: then left and called nine one one. The couple's son

604
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 16: told authorities he believed that he was texting with his

605
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 16: parents all week. Now, authorities believe his sister was using

606
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 16: the parent's phone to make the son think that they.

607
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 3: Were still alive.

608
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 16: Forty three year old Verity Beck charged with murdering her

609
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 16: seventy two year old mother and seventy three year old father.

610
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 16: This is video of Abington Police transporting the suspect to jail.

611
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 16: Her father, Reid and mother Miriam, a former school nurse,

612
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 16: were both shot in the head inside their quaint home

613
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 16: and the eleven hundred block of Beverly Road. Verity stayed

614
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 16: in the home with their bodies for nearly a week.

615
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: Now, this woman no way can she claim some type

616
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,439
Speaker 2: of mental defect because she had the cunning to fake

617
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 2: out her brother for days and days, pretending that her

618
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: parents were texting with him when it was her reminiscent

619
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,280
Speaker 2: of the Gabby Patito case, where the boyfriend the fiance,

620
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 2: Brian Laundry, was texting Gabby's family as if he were Gabby,

621
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 2: knowing full well he had murdered Gabby and left her

622
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 2: body out in dispersed camping all the way across the country.

623
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 3: Well, that's not the only one.

624
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 2: One case that comes to mind that reminds me of

625
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: this case in particular is the case of Thomas Gilbert Junior.

626
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 2: Born with a silver spoon in his mouth and sitting

627
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 2: on a velvet cushion.

628
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,879
Speaker 3: Take a listen to our friends at ABC thirty year

629
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 3: old Thomas Gilbert Junior.

630
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 14: He's currently being held without bail after police say he's

631
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 14: shot Thomas Gilbert Senior in the head Sunday afternoon inside

632
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 14: this Manhattan apartment.

633
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 3: I'm still in shock.

634
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 14: Ann A Rothschild says she recently dated Gilbert Junior.

635
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,479
Speaker 3: How did he describe his relationship with his father?

636
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 13: Because father was never happy with anything he did.

637
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 3: Gilbert Junior was in debt and unemployed.

638
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 14: According to detectives, His investor father recently discussed no longer

639
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 14: paying his son's rent and planned to cut his weekly

640
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 14: allowance by one hundred dollars, reducing it to three hundred dollars.

641
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 14: Police have also charged him with twenty one counts of

642
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 14: criminal possession of forgery devices because insigned Gilbert Junior's Manhattan apartment.

643
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 14: They say they found twenty one blank credit cards and

644
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 14: a skimming device used to capture credit card information.

645
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 3: Boy, do I need a shrink right now? And with me?

646
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 3: Renown psychiatrist doctor Angela Arnold.

647
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 2: The guy is thirty years old, just like this guy

648
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: John Daniels Junior and his shirtless selfies that he's posting

649
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 2: online claiming to be an investment banker. This guy is

650
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: thirty years old and tracking down a woman he dated.

651
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,439
Speaker 2: The first thing, she said is he told me his

652
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: father was never happy with him. He could never do

653
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 2: anything right, nothing was ever good enough. Seriously, at age thirty,

654
00:37:55,200 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 2: you're steel whining your dad is disappointed in you. While

655
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 2: I might add that you're using a skimmer to capture

656
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 2: credit card information of unsuspecting people and use their lines

657
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 2: of credit and credit.

658
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 3: Cards for yourself. I guess he was a stranger from

659
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 3: his father.

660
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 11: Well, you know, Nancy, to me, that sounds like that

661
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 11: person is completely anti social.

662
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 2: That took a while for you to actually spit it out.

663
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 2: Did you have to think a long time? I mean,

664
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 2: if you do your dad or in this case bludgeing

665
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 2: your stepmom dad, I guess I even I, who know

666
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 2: nothing about psychiatry, could say anti social. I'm looking for

667
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 2: something a little bit deeper than that, doctor Ange. I mean,

668
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 2: you did go to undergrad medical school and train in psychiatry.

669
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 3: Did you not help me out here?

670
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: You ever heard of Oedipus?

671
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 11: Yes, there's all of that going on, but at the beginning, no.

672
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no.

673
00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 2: You are the psychiatrist, all right, you are the expert.

674
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 3: Don't just say all that's going on?

675
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 15: What are you saying?

676
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 3: Woman? What camp? First, let's just talk about Oedipus for

677
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 3: a moment. Okay, even I know that, and I just

678
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 3: fell off the turnip truck for Pete's sake.

679
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 2: When a son hates the mother, it's called an Oedipus complex.

680
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 11: Yeah, but he doesn't just hate the mother. He also

681
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 11: has sexual desires for the mother, and he cannot make

682
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 11: he can't act those out, and so he kills the mother.

683
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 11: Sometimes these people also kill the father because the father

684
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 11: is blocking them from having their sexual desires met with

685
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 11: the mother.

686
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 2: Doctor Angie, I don't know if I can't determine whether

687
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 2: Irma was clothed or not, but I wonder forget about

688
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 2: sex with your mother.

689
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 3: Can we talk about money? Did you hear?

690
00:39:55,239 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 2: Thomas Gilbert, his father, who's in his seventies, was thinking

691
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 2: about reducing his weekly allowance by one hundred dollars to

692
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 2: three hundred dollars a week. He was getting twelve hundred

693
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: dollars a month, plus.

694
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 3: His home was paid for. I think you lived with

695
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 3: the parents.

696
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 2: I'm not sure about that, but yet the father, a senior,

697
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,439
Speaker 2: dared to suggest I'm only giving you twelve hundred a month.

698
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 2: He shot him in the head. Oh, and I might

699
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: add before he shot his father in the head. He

700
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 2: sent his mother out to go get him a sandwich. Seriously,

701
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 2: I mean, did the mother ever say, son, you can

702
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: do that yourself, or hey, what are those socks doing

703
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 2: on the floor?

704
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,839
Speaker 3: Why are they there? Is that where you're storing your

705
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 3: socks now on the floor of the den? What went wrong?

706
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 3: Dtr Angie Dancy.

707
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 11: These people have come to believe this is a real

708
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 11: attack on who they are by the parent if the

709
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 11: parent so much as wants to remove some of their

710
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 11: money from them, okay, because these kids have never had

711
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 11: to work for anything, They've never had to do anything

712
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 11: for themselves. So internally it says to this person, I'm

713
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 11: not as worthy anymore of your love. If you're going

714
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 11: to take some of my funds away from me, then

715
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 11: I'm no longer worthy of this. Why are you doing

716
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 11: this to me? And it enrages them, okay, And it

717
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 11: can be as simple as one hundred dollars a week,

718
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 11: but no one has ever taught them that they have

719
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 11: to work for anything, so the only people that they

720
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 11: have to look to are their parents. It would be

721
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 11: like if they were at a job and their boss said,

722
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 11: you know what, we're going to cut your pay a

723
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 11: little bit because we don't think you're doing as good

724
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 11: of a job. That's what they hear. Okay, Nancy, they

725
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 11: don't hear what we're all seeing that they're being well

726
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 11: taken care of and housed and closed.

727
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: Doesn't he notice that his stepmom is getting up and

728
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 2: going to work every morning. His dad is duking it

729
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 2: out as managing partner of a law firm. And that's

730
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 2: not easy. You're a managing member of a law firm,

731
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: Brad Micklin. When you're the manager of a law firm,

732
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 2: you have to not only see oversee everybody's cases, but

733
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,919
Speaker 2: you have to deal with all their petty disagreements. They're jealousies,

734
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 2: their raises, their promotions, their benefits, the blaw and the blaw.

735
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 3: It's maddening.

736
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 2: Did he not notice his parents were working while he's

737
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 2: sitting and I'm taking shirtless selfies and posting them.

738
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that's what the problem is.

739
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 10: I think that many are novel, but many parents they

740
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 10: coddled their children, They overfund their children, they over medicate

741
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 10: their children if they have the least bit of anxiety.

742
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 10: I mean, people need to learn to suffer.

743
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 2: Well, you know it sounds to me, Brad Micklin, that

744
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 2: you are actually blaming the dead stepmom that she didn't

745
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 2: discipline the step son enough.

746
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 3: No, okay, I'm glad to hear that.

747
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 10: He was graduate high school when she came into the picture.

748
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 3: Bren, I thank you.

749
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 2: Was twelve when the stepmom Irma comes into the scene.

750
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 2: It starts helping raising it. But you know what, aside

751
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 2: from that, I notice a trend here where adult children

752
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 2: get angry when they're about to lose money from their

753
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: senior parents. Bringing to mind Joel Guy Junior. Take a

754
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 2: listen now our cut ten.

755
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 17: Joel and Lisa Guy we're found deceased in their residence.

756
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,839
Speaker 17: The parents are believed to have been murdered between late

757
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 17: Friday night, the twenty fifth and midday on Saturday, the

758
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 17: twenty sixth. Both suffered multiple vicious stab wounds as well

759
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 17: as dismemberment. Joel Junior was visiting from Louisiana. He arrived

760
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 17: in Knoxville on Wednesday the twenty seconds and departed on

761
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 17: Sunday the twenty.

762
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 3: Seven and more from WATE.

763
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 18: Major MacLean describes the scene as horrific, saying remains were

764
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 18: disposed of in multiple rooms.

765
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 17: Seeing scenes like this, they are very very rare. It's

766
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 17: in the one percent pile of homicides in the United.

767
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 18: States, and that the Getters have spoken to Guy Junior's sisters,

768
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 18: none saying he was acting strangely before the murder.

769
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 3: The motive is still unclear.

770
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 17: Parents had indicated that they were in the process of

771
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 17: encouraging him to offend for himself, and they were going

772
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 17: to be cutting off some of his financial support.

773
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 2: To Kelsey McKay, former prosecutor, now victims rights lawyer, founder

774
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 2: of McKay Training and Consulting, that's what it's all about here,

775
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 2: Just like in the case where I just played it,

776
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 2: and that Guy Joel guide Junior actually hated his parents

777
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 2: so much for cutting him off financially he dismembered them.

778
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 2: Same thing here and that stat I was interested in.

779
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 2: Less than one percent of all homicides are patricide or

780
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 2: killing your parent, be it mother or father. What do

781
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 2: you make of this, Kelsey?

782
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,879
Speaker 13: So a few things. One circling to what doctor Arnold said,

783
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 13: I think why we struggled so much these cases when

784
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 13: it is entitlement and greed and privilege that is really

785
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 13: the driving motive is those are not medical diagnoses. Those

786
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 13: are character traits, and so in my experience as a prosecutor,

787
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 13: there was a constant need to diagnose away the criminal behavior.

788
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 13: And so in this case, seeing the pictures of him

789
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 13: and his false appearance of his wealth and his money,

790
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 13: I wonder if what's not just behind that is downright

791
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 13: greed and entitlement. When it comes to the percentage of cases,

792
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 13: the dynamics important, and it's also important to recognize we

793
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 13: have a female victim in this case. Murders against women

794
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 13: semicides are very different than all other homicides, and sons

795
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 13: and step sons. While it's a small proportion, more women

796
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 13: are killed by their son or step sons than by

797
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 13: a stranger. So it may not be super common when

798
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,760
Speaker 13: you look at all overall homicides, but when you separate

799
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 13: out femicide, it's actually a significant proportion of those cases

800
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 13: involve that mother or step mother relationship.

801
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 2: Dodor Azel Arnold, renowned psychiatgists joining us sad the Atlanta

802
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 2: Jeury stictionan go ahead, doctor.

803
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 11: Nancy, this is like she just said, this only involves

804
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 11: two percent of all homicides. It's the rarest type of murder.

805
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 11: I do want everyone to know though, that these are

806
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 11: that these types of murders, which are actually called paracides,

807
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 11: are growing. Okay, and this guy sits the bill, Nancy,

808
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 11: This guy sits the bill. It's typically committed by an adult,

809
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 11: middle class white male with no history of any prior

810
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 11: acts between the ages of eighteen and thirty. Uh oh,

811
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 11: this guy tells the story of exactly of this type

812
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 11: of murder. He has hung himself as far as I'm concerned.

813
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 2: We wait as this case heads to trial and justice unfolds.

814
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 3: Goodbye, say