WEBVTT - What Freedom Looks Like 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.720 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ok F Daily with 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:19.760 Meet Your Girl Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.279 the opening that I was going to do was going 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:25.680 to be different than the one that I am about 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:30.319 to deliver, because right when I was coming to my 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:36.680 microphone to turn it on and discuss an entirely different story, 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:46.199 news broke school shooting Appalachi High School in Georgia. At 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:51.000 the time of this recording, currently four people are dead, 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:59.840 thirty more are wounded. There are still reports coming in. Folks. 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:06.480 The reason don't matter, the fucking weapon of choice does, 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:11.720 and the easy access to it, and a society that 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:15.720 chooses to allow the number one cause of death to 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.880 not be diseased, to not be poisoned, to not be accident, 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:25.399 but instead to be intentional carnage that happens at the 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:31.200 hand of a gun. I don't understand this country. I 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:36.120 don't understand people who elect Republican officials into office that 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:39.720 remove their flag pin and put on an AR fifteen 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:43.160 the way that Republicans in the House of Representatives have done. 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:47.880 I don't understand a nation of people that would vote 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:53.320 for a man that told families after shooting in Iowa 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:59.000 to quote, get over it. I don't understand a country 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.640 where elected officials who have the power of the pen 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:07.560 to write legislation that would keep Americans safe, that instead 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:11.920 use those very same pens to make it easier and 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:16.960 easier for people to have guns to carry them wherever 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:22.480 they want. There are other countries in the world where 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:29.000 after one shooting they change their gun laws, after one 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:35.480 act of heinous violence, they change their laws. Why is 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:40.400 America like this? Why is this okay? It is the 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:45.440 first day of school for millions of children, and there 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:49.200 are some of them that are not coming home, and 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:52.960 we have just shrugged our shoulders and said, well, that's 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.600 the price of freedom. I guess is this free? Is 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:04.760 this what freedom looks like? Honestly, I am just I'm outdone. 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.240 I did a whole video on this that is up 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:11.040 on my YouTube channel. Go to YouTube Google Daniel Moody 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:15.840 channel at Daniel Moody Underscore because right when it happened, 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.680 I needed to post something because I was near tears. 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:23.680 I don't have kids, and you shouldn't need to have 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:29.600 kids to realize that school should be a place of safety, 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:38.600 of innovation, of inspiration, of joy and instead too often 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:43.080 in this country they are a fucking crime scene. And 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:49.680 again we're okay with that. We have power come November, friends, 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:54.200 We have power, come November to rid ourselves of Donald Trump, 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:58.720 to rid ourselves of these Republican representatives, to rid ourselves 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:04.840 of their nonsensical, grift driven policies where they care so 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:08.600 little about our fucking children out of uter row that 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:11.360 instead of putting on a beanie on them in the hospital, 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.160 they want to check their trigger finger. I am just 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:19.520 fucking sick and outdone. It needs to end. The only 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.160 time that we have not had a shooting at schools 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:25.760 in this country was during COVID, and that's because the 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.600 kids were home. I don't know how people send their 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.040 kids to school, I really don't. I know they don't 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:34.320 have a choice, but I just can't imagine the fear 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.520 because one day, that text message and that phone call 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:42.000 that too many families have received across this country will 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:49.640 end up on your phone, changing lives forever. Coming up next, friends, 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.080 my conversation, an important conversation with our friend or in 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:59.280 house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel on why Generation Z men 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:04.719 under the a age of thirty are deciding to vote 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:08.599 with Trump, and sadly it's not just young white men. 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:17.839 Oh God, more on that conversation is coming up next, folks. 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.480 As always, you know that when we have the opportunity 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:23.839 to speak with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzl, 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:28.359 we are always pleased. Jonathan. Happy September. It is not 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:32.640 actually officially the end of summer because the equinox has 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:36.240 not happened, which is man, but it is the end 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:41.560 of summer for those that teach, for those that are students. 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.960 So I will say classes back in session. Because you 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:50.880 sent me some reading work ahead of our conversation today, 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.599 and friends, this article in the New York Times, which 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:58.000 you know is my least favorite publication right now, entitled 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:02.880 many gen z Men feel left behind, Some see Trump 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.359 as an answer. Men under thirty are more likely to 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:09.240 support Donald Trump than women their age. It's a far 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:14.159 bigger gender gap than in older generations. So, Jonathan, you 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:17.640 sent this to me, and I want to get you 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:20.359 kick us off in terms of why you feel like 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:24.000 this is something that we need to be paying attention to, 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:27.279 or why you think that maybe we haven't been paying 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.040 attention to gen z men. 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.120 Well, what I thought was interesting about that article was 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:37.039 that there's kind of stereotype of white men as the 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:41.039 hegemonic norm, the power structure, all that kind of stuff, 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.000 and then there's also like there's a fifty year history 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.520 of white masculinity being in a crisis. I used to 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:50.039 teach a class called the Politics of Masculinity, and every 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:52.320 year there'd be some article men are in crisis, and 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.800 so there's always kind of a tradeoff. I would say 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:58.240 that they're not a ton of sympathy for those arguments, 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:00.480 but I do think that there was some really interesting 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:04.640 and powerful stuff in this article, in particular because it 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:10.080 wasn't like Trump is playing the whole macho testosterone field 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.560 card and that's what Elon Musk is doing and all 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:16.240 these people, Andrew Tait and all this crazy stuff. But 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:17.800 what was interesting in this article is that they were 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:21.720 interviewing and there was citing research about men who actually 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:26.800 supported reproductive rights and were a fine working for a 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:29.800 woman boss. They weren't like out there doing the drum 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:32.440 circle with Trump. But they were also saying that they 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:35.640 were feeling ignored and left behind, and that in a way, 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:38.440 all the initiatives, all the politics of the Democrats really 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:40.760 weren't speaking to them, and there was you know, there 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:44.200 was another article I read about how like the Democratic 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:47.520 platform had all of the groups who were to be 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:49.600 lifted up and white men were not one of the 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.240 groups and stuff like that. So there's an assumption that 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:55.320 white men are like this toxic, crazy thing. But what 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:57.400 I thought was interesting in the article was it was 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:00.640 not that it was men who are kind of okay 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:04.160 with some gender norms, but also feel like they're worried 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.760 about the economy. They can't attract a mate because they 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.520 can't make enough money to support a family, They worry 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:14.080 about the fall of traditional gender roles, or things like that. 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.360 So these are the article was much more about what 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:21.000 you might call like centrist gen Z white men, not 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:24.679 extreme white men. And so the question for me always 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.880 is could the Democrats be doing more to speak to 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:31.640 those audiences, because certainly what the article suggested is Trump 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.840 is the only one who is acknowledging those audiences. And 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.280 I do worry sometimes that we've fallen into a trap 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:41.520 that white men don't need to be acknowledged because they 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:43.679 already have all the benefits or things like that. So 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:45.440 I think, you know, in a way, it complicates that 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:47.800 thinking a little bit if people are willing to go there. 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.720 And of course the other part is there are a 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:56.440 lot of men like that in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and 0:08:56.520 --> 0:09:00.560 North Carolina, and so the fact that the Democratic messages 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:03.840 not speaking to them beyond just like you know, I 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:06.120 saw this with the Affordable Care Act, like, of course 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:07.960 our policies are going to help you. Of course, our 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:09.640 policy is going to help you. That kind of stuff, 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:12.760 but not really acknowledging them is I think the question 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:13.720 the article raises. 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:19.560 Let me take a step back before we dive into 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:22.040 the specifics of the article, because I want to talk 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:26.720 about and get your thoughts on gender norms specifically, because 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.960 what I think has been happening over the course, particularly 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:33.560 around the last several weeks and the shift in our 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:37.600 Democrats top of the ticket with Vice President Kamala Harris 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.480 now being the Democratic nominee, is that there is a 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:46.520 distinctive divide between the future and the past, between what 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:51.000 traditional gender norms are and the role that I am 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:55.320 seeing and many are seeing Governor Tim Walls present as 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:59.480 a different version of what masculinity can and many are 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:04.240 saying should look like. Talk to me about gender roles 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.800 in modern time what is the role, what is the positioning, 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:13.040 what is the reasoning behind gender roles? And is there 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:17.280 in the twenty first century, in this time where so 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.560 much has shifted. And I disagree to some extent with 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.080 some in the article saying that you know, things have 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:25.599 shifted so quickly, and I'm like, I guess fifty or 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:29.199 sixty years as quick. But talk to me about the 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:33.520 positioning and the reasoning behind gender roles in the first place. 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:37.720 Well, I think it's a mistake that people like me. 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.360 I mean, I was a women's studies professor before I 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:42.600 was anything in academia. That was my first job for 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:45.240 many years, which I loved. But there was a mistake 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:48.320 to think that we're on a progress narrative, that we're 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.800 going toward equality, and that gender roles are a thing 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:53.480 of the past, just like race is a thing of 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:55.480 the past. But when you study the history of it, 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.440 you see that there's always a vacillation, because gender realms 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.760 do not exist in a vacuum. First, of course, there's 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:05.640 a lot of false nostalgia about gender and like, oh, 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:07.400 it used to be so great in the old days, 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:09.360 and now we want to bring that back. But really, 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:11.000 if you go back to the old days, there were 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:12.720 a lot of problems. So partially there's a lot of 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:15.480 nostalgia about the way things used to be. But it 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:19.520 does feel like there's a lot of vacillation between liberation 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:24.200 and conservatism, I guess you might say. And so in 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.960 the sixties and seventies there was Gloria Steinem saying a 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.480 woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.600 We were going to overthrow the male female role system. 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.600 And then people got really nervous, saying, gosh, gender rules 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.920 structure society, it's how I understand the world, it's how 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:44.600 I understand religion. And so then there's a kind of 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.400 blowback against that to say, you know, there's a return 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:51.960 to the head of the household male and stuff like that. 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:55.120 But it also responds to events. I mean, think about 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:58.120 nine to eleven, for example, people got nervous, and all 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:02.080 of a sudden we saw the valorization of the white 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.560 male firefighter or policeman or something like that. So there 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.360 are all these ways in which it's not just a linear, 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.800 a kind of ascended progress narrative, and I think we're 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:14.280 seeing that now too, which is we can be very 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:16.440 critical of it if we want but I think that 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:23.120 stories like trans women in women's sports or the bathroom thing, 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.200 which seemed kind of comical if you're like a liberal 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:28.640 person in a blue city or something like that, but 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.120 it does speak to an anxiety that I think people 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.080 feel palpably here in a place like Tennessee that the 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.120 world is changing away from my value system. And so 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.680 you see a kind of backlash against that, where people say, 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:43.120 it's just confusing for me. If we're doing away with 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.760 these categories, what are you going to replace it with? 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.360 And that's where I think there's resonance. Not that I 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:53.080 agree with it, but there's resonance about critiques of pronouns 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:55.440 and bathrooms and things like that. And so it's always 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:57.840 going to be a kind of back and forth. And 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.480 I think that Trump has put his face on that 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:03.760 by picking these picking the He's just very good at 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.880 like picking those issues and saying, the world's going to 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.160 spin away from you, and I'm the only guy who 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:11.640 can defend it. And I do think the Democrats have 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:16.400 had a hard time navigating that, and it's got real consequences. 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:19.200 I mean, if you look at the battleover abortion rights 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.160 in New York, for example, the language of the abortion 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:24.640 bill in New York that talked about pregnant people, not 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.920 women's right to abortion, is now being used by the 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:31.600 right to undermine I mean, the Democrats are really at 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:34.720 risk in New York of some real surprises. So there's 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.840 a kind of back and forth between anxiety and I let. 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:39.520 Me let me ask you this though. I mean, I 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:44.600 have so many issues with this, but I really take 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:48.640 issue with the word anxiety. And maybe it is because 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:55.040 it harkens back to this feeling around oh, economic anxiety. 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:59.359 Economic anxiety in twenty sixteen was a code for racism. 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.839 So are we talking now about oh, the anxiety that 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.800 white men and young men, because it isn't just white men, 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:10.400 it's young Latino men and black men that are Generation 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:15.120 Z is it? This anxiety is about the power that 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:19.160 women have gained over the last several decades. And so 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.640 now I don't know what box I'm in, And my 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:26.000 question is why do we need boxes? Because who do 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:26.720 they benefit? 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:31.200 Jonathan, right, I think what is being tapped into. Maybe 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:34.720 anxiety is the wrong word. I think basically, if you 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:38.600 grew up where I am now Tennessee, in two miles 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.280 from where I'm sitting right now, you grew up in 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:45.800 a conservative state with a religious I mean, there's religion 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.360 everywhere here. There's more churches than there are like hot 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.240 dog stands. It's like the opposite of every places I've 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.720 ever lived, except Missouri, where I grew up. And so 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.360 I think it's about values, like, oh, my values about 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.520 family or tradition are being threatened, and so that when 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:04.440 I say anxiety, that's what I mean. That there's a 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.880 question of values or being devalued. Now, maybe I think 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.480 anxiety is the wrong word, but I do think that 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.240 that kind of concern that my way of life is 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:17.320 being threatened leads to either a backlash or it's easily 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.560 manipulated into a backlash. I think that there's both of 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.360 those things. And so if you're going to say there's 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:27.200 no categories, I just think it leads to those kind 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:28.600 of concerns, like people saying, I. 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:34.000 Mean, my question is what is the benefit of boxes? 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.680 Because if you ask me, where has there been a 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:41.080 benefit of boxes? Boxes only benefit those that are at 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.520 the top of a pyramid. Because if I can easily 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:48.840 place you into a situation, then I can easily stereotype you, 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:52.200 I can easily dismiss you. But if I'm saying that 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.040 actually humanity is a much more fluid than that, and 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.520 I don't want to go off into a philosophical tangent, 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:02.600 but if I'm saying that our and our sexual orientation 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.680 is much more fluid than the rigidity that has been 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:09.960 placed on us since the beginning of time, then how 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:15.680 do we adapt to what is that actual real science, 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:19.640 which is that human beings are actually much more fluid. 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.200 Then we've been situated to believe that we are. Women 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:27.680 actually have much more power and agency and have just 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.120 been robbed of that since the beginning of time until 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:34.080 they were able to have economic power and able to 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:37.800 have a voice with a vote. And so when we 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:41.400 look at the structures of how society was built in 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:43.960 the boxes that they were built on, it was to 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:50.480 preserve and enhance patriarchy. So when I hear you say, well, 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.280 if we do away with categories, then all of a sudden, 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:57.080 there is this anxiety and I'm just using that term 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.440 because I don't know what else to call it. There 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.960 is this supple anxiety. But then you're saying that we 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:05.880 should be talking to the people that are anxious and 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:09.080 holding their hand along the way, as opposed to, in 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:12.119 my humble opinion, what are the tools and skills that 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:16.160 these people need actually to adapt to a different way 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:17.159 of thinking and being. 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:20.200 Well, let me say two things about that. I mean, first, 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:22.399 as you know, I think there are ways to have 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:25.719 it both ways. I think the Democrats are kind of 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:29.240 boxed in sometimes by not being able to I think 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:31.200 there are ways to speak to this in a way 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:35.679 that also are true to values. I think Harris Interrcy 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.119 in an interview just kept saying I haven't changed. I 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:40.840 haven't changed. But as we spoke about last week, I 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:45.040 do think there are ways to talk about entrepreneurialism, economy, 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:48.520 better ment, health, crime, all the things we talked about 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:52.080 last week that I do think Democrats can signal in 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:54.320 a ways that are better kind of linked to what 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.240 you're saying right now, you know, I worry. I mean, 0:17:57.480 --> 0:17:59.600 we can talk next week about what's happening with the 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:02.880 reaper active choice legislation in New York, which I think 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.560 is a pretty serious issue right now, which is about 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.920 doing away with categories and the political implications of that. 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.680 And I'm not saying we should all become like the 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:14.800 man is the head of the household or something like that, 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:17.240 but I do think that there have to be ways 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.159 of saying what you're saying right, which is a rising 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.720 tide lifts all boats and all those kind of things, Like, 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:24.960 I think there has to be a better way. But 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.119 I think with the way this plays out, because we're 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.879 in a zero sum political system, is that these fights 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:36.679 come out in very stereotypical, polarizing ways, and they have 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:41.160 huge implications and so well, of course, theoretically I totally 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.280 agree with what you're saying, of course, like that's the 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:46.520 basis of a lot of my work about gender and race. 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.720 But I would just say, because I'm also an ethnographer, 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.560 I interview people. I try to understand their point of view, 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:55.760 and so I would say that in the interviews that 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.320 I do, I also think that people's concern is not 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.199 just I don't want to give up my privilege. It's like, 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:05.240 where do I fit into the worldview that you're presenting? 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.240 And I think but that to me, that is the 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:13.000 valid question. That's a valid question of as the world changes, 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:17.080 what is my role and responsibility in this new system? 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.840 And I think that that's a question that democrats in 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.720 many ways are posing. That the world is changing, and 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:25.960 I would just push back on what you said about 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:29.840 the Vice president or CNN interview. What she was talking 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.959 about is the fact that her values have not changed. 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.960 How you approach strategy is going too different from administration 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:40.000 to administration. But if I still have values that are 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.840 aligned with democracy, that are aligned with equity and justice, right, 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:47.439 then you have to understand that my character has not changed. 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:52.680 How I perceive and decide to create different policies. That's 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.679 a tactic in order to move society forward. And so 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:58.399 it wasn't of a I haven't changed. I haven't changed 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.560 as in like I am a statf. It's that you 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:05.520 can rely on my character because my values have not changed, 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:08.479 as opposed to the other guy who has no character 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.080 and has no values, and they change with whoever puts 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:12.520 a check in front of his face. 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:15.159 Right, I mean to be fair, The question I think 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.160 she was answering at the time was about fracking and 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:19.480 changing our view on fracking. So it wasn't about gender. 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.280 Just want to be clear about that. And so I 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.080 also think it's possible to say, look, I've evolved, you know, 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.160 like I've been in power and I changed my views 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:31.119 about things, and I understand now that it's easier to 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:33.280 tweet a bunch of stuff than it is to actually 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.080 make decisions that impact groups of people. So that was 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:38.480 the answer I wish would have been given. But again, 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.760 also again, we're in a very you know, there's always 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:43.359 a push and pull in history, and we're in one 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:47.640 of those moments where winning this election has profound consequences, 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:50.399 and so you want to be open and strategic. And 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.120 I think the caveat I just apologize for keep giving 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:56.480 caveats is that I mean, I think that the Tim 0:20:56.520 --> 0:21:00.160 Walls version of masculinity is speaking to a lot of people. Well, 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:02.199 there are a lot of men in Red States who 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:06.840 want their partners, spouses, wives to have the right to 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.360 get an abortion if they have a non viable fetus 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:12.440 or something like that. Like, I think that in a way, 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:15.240 it's not like these categories are so clear cut. But 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.959 the danger I think for Democrats is, I mean, I'm 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:21.920 seeing this with guns that people think people like Timwolves 0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:25.719 represent What did they represent? He certainly doesn't represent the 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.200 majority of gun owners who are down here, like NRA 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:31.320 members who buy the NRA line or something like that. 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.440 So the issue is it's a you know, a metonym, 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:36.440 a piece of a whole. What is the hole that's 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:39.280 being represented? Is there a movement toward a new definition 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.960 of masculinity that he represents, or are we highlighting, as 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:45.919 we talked about last week, the converts who are not 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:48.640 a valid sample size except for people who are willing 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:50.400 to come over to our side. And so I think, 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:52.320 you know, you want to talk to the most numbers 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:52.959 of people you can. 0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:58.880 I like this question, and I actually want to hold 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.920 this question for next week for us to be able 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:04.679 to tease out more because I think that the question 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:07.919 is there a movement towards a new definition of masculinity? 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.639 That is really the question that I think that we 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:15.960 need to be asking, and we need to be asking 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:19.720 in a very specific manner other than to your point, 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:24.080 where we have these new representations, whether it is Doug 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:28.480 Emhoff the second Gentleman, or if it is Tim Walls 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:32.720 and the other men that we saw on the stage 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.720 at the DNC, there is a very different type of 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:39.080 man that is inside of the Democratic Party that they're 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:43.879 putting forth, but they're not articulating and asserting it in 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:46.920 a way to say men don't have to be one way. 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:51.080 And I think that that articulation is something that is 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:55.679 missing from the Democrats' agenda. Last word to you before 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:57.320 we close for today. 0:22:57.480 --> 0:22:59.639 I'll go TMI on everybody next week because, as you know, 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:02.520 am back on these goddamn dating apps. And so I've 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:05.719 been thinking a lot about gender because there is like, 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:07.520 it's just funny that people there are a lot of 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:10.959 people who long for what they imagine to be traditional 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:14.640 gender norms. I'm seeing this a lot, and so it's 0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:16.719 tapping This is a question about the election, but it's 0:23:16.720 --> 0:23:19.359 tapping into something bigger, which is that the world feels 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:20.959 like it's spinning away to a lot of people, and 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:23.320 what do you fall back on, because even if we 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:26.080 go towards the future, there's also a lot of we'll say, 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:28.600 anxiety about that, like where do we land if we 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:31.280 don't have this thing we've been falling back on and 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:36.080 tradition brings comfort, but change is concerning sometimes. So this 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:37.680 is happening out in the world right now. 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:41.239